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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and the FDA has approved an over

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Speaker 1: the counter oral contraceptive. We have a star studded show today.

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Speaker 1: Sisters in Law podcast host Joyce Vance tells us all

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Speaker 1: about Trump's legal woes, and there are a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Axios national political correspondent Alex Thompson

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Speaker 1: about everything happening in Biden world and Ron DeSantis' many

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Speaker 1: bad political instincts. But first we have the author of

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Speaker 1: the big Live pod Save Americas, Dan Pfeiffer.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Dan.

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Speaker 3: Paifer, Thanks for havould be good to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're excited to have you back, especially right now

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Speaker 1: because I feel like this is you know, you worked

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Speaker 1: in the Obama administration. You have this little podcast no

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Speaker 1: one's ever heard of, probably the reason all of us

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Speaker 1: are doing what we're doing right now. But more importantly,

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Speaker 1: like you have worked in an administration and I feel

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Speaker 1: like there are echoes of Obama here where it's like

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Speaker 1: things are actually going quite well, and the Biden administration

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Speaker 1: does not seem to be able to like kind of

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Speaker 1: get the credit for it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, no president has ever or their staff has

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Speaker 3: ever believed in our case, at least correctly, and in

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Speaker 3: bindensc Care directly, they get credit for all everything good

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Speaker 3: they have done. But there is a particular disconnect right

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Speaker 3: now between the trajectory of the economy and people's opinion

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Speaker 3: on that economy. I think it's a very complicated, complex

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Speaker 3: reason for set set of reasons for that. But how

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Speaker 3: we we the progressive democratic world more broadly figures out

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Speaker 3: how to unstick that situation is going to be very

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Speaker 3: closely tied to what happens in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about that, because you know, we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of economists on here, and I'm married

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Speaker 1: to a venture capitalist, So we spend a lot of

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Speaker 1: time worrying about the public market, and.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of anxiety.

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Speaker 1: And I lived through two thousand and eight, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we talk a lot about what you know, there was

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Speaker 1: a real conviction and I wouldn't even say conviction. I

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Speaker 1: would say on the left, it was an anxiety. On

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Speaker 1: the right, it was a fantasy that we were going

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Speaker 1: to head to recession, that there was no way that

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Speaker 1: you could quash inflation without driving the American economy into

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Speaker 1: a recession.

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Speaker 2: And it seems like that's not happening.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems, based on both the job numbers and

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Speaker 3: the inflation numbers out earlier this week, that we are

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Speaker 3: headed towards what the economists call soft landing, where you

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Speaker 3: defeated inflation without heading to a recession. That would be huge,

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Speaker 3: both substantively and politically, huge victory for the Biden administration

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Speaker 3: and the set and everyone who's been trying to do this.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean there was a lot of like deft

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Speaker 1: kind of maneuvering behind the scenes that made this happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean you have the set of and

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Speaker 3: this is you can't talk about this without tying it

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Speaker 3: to the set of letislat of a college rests. The

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Speaker 3: President has made first the American Rescue Plan to bring

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Speaker 3: the economy back quickly, right, they get to restart hiring

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Speaker 3: in this country, and then a bunch of longer term

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Speaker 3: bills like the Chips Acts and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill,

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Speaker 3: which are leading to investment, which is then improving the markets.

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Speaker 3: It's improving hiring, and it is keeping me. It has

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Speaker 3: kept the economy strong despite a pretty aggressive set of

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Speaker 3: rate increases from the FED. It's almost like the economy

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Speaker 3: is so strong that even the said can't start. John

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Speaker 3: pal seems to be trying by he's been unable to do.

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Speaker 2: It, and the jobs numbers.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not going to go crazy here on

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Speaker 1: the economy start because I'm just a hobbyist. But the

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Speaker 1: sort of feeling I always had growing up was that

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Speaker 1: Republican presidents would sort of fall into good economic news

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Speaker 1: is and then Democrats would have to sort of dig

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Speaker 1: out from the whole that Republicans put us in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that is. That has been the very clear history.

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Speaker 3: So there's an old, tired metaphor about Democrats having to

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Speaker 3: clean up after the elephants at the circus every time

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Speaker 3: they get in office.

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Speaker 1: But voters like to vote for Republicans on the economy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, this is a really interesting question. Republicans

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Speaker 3: have had an advantage on the economy more broadly, going

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Speaker 3: back to Ragan, Democrats out of for a very long time,

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Speaker 3: New Deal Roosevelt clad in the nineties had a very

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Speaker 3: strong abamba one, you know, had a big advantage on

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Speaker 3: the economy. Even in miss all the troubles he had

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Speaker 3: against Romney and twenty twelve, no president. And this is

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Speaker 3: sort of gets to the question of how Biden is

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Speaker 3: connect to navigate this is no person in monern history

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Speaker 3: has won a presidential election without winning on the economy.

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Speaker 3: The closest is it has ever been for the winners

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Speaker 3: that Biden and Trump are essentially tied in the exit

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Speaker 3: polls on the economy. And so right now he the president,

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Speaker 3: despite all of the successes and the state of the economy,

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Speaker 3: you know jobs at you know unemploy rate disks, see

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Speaker 3: your low inflation coming down for more than a year

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Speaker 3: now sort back to the normal range. All of those things,

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Speaker 3: is at a significant deficit on the economy. And that's

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Speaker 3: why we're talking about bodynomics. That's why they're out the

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Speaker 3: every day is they know they have to solve that problem.

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Speaker 3: And the best time to solve that problem is right

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Speaker 3: now when the Republicans are in the midst of all

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Speaker 3: their insane stuff in the primary. And he has sort

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Speaker 3: of a little bit of a free lays out the

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Speaker 3: right word, but he is not in a day to

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Speaker 3: day back and forth with Donald Trump or on Santas

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Speaker 3: he can just talk about the economy. This is what

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Speaker 3: I wominated a moment at this exact point in time,

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Speaker 3: was getting killed on the economy. Americans believed that he

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Speaker 3: was not for eonomy. It was worse, for sure, it

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Speaker 3: was actually bad. Had we actually had a harder challenge

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Speaker 3: in the sense that we add to tell people that

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Speaker 3: things were going to get better rather than things are better.

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Speaker 3: There wasn't you had to look at the horizon here.

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Speaker 3: There's a possibility just some to look out their window

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Speaker 3: and they may be able to feel better about it.

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Speaker 3: But the reasons why they are and I think are

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Speaker 3: very complex, and that there is I do think one

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Speaker 3: of the things we have to recognize is the polling

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Speaker 3: is not telling us everything that it used to tell us,

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Speaker 3: because there are a couple measures you look at it.

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Speaker 3: There is overall economic approval of the president, there is

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Speaker 3: approval of the economy itself, and there is right track

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Speaker 3: rown track. I'm gonna do these in reverse order. Right track,

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Speaker 3: wrong track is terrible. Right it is more suspended history.

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Speaker 3: That is when you do focus groups on this, and

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Speaker 3: the reason those numbers are slow is Republicans all think

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Speaker 3: the country is on the wrong direction because Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: is president Donald Trump is not, and Democrats think the

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Speaker 3: country a lot of Democrats and some independence think the

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Speaker 3: country is on the wrong track because Donald Trump might

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Speaker 3: be president again. Like everything that's happening in this country,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's hard to turn on the news despite

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Speaker 3: the economic indicators strong the news and look at Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump running around gaining in the polls for the Republican

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Speaker 3: nomination with two indictments under his spelt and saying things

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Speaker 3: are going great in the country. So you understand that

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Speaker 3: on approval of the economy. Over the last fifteen years,

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Speaker 3: economic approval has become a proxy for presidential choice in

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Speaker 3: I remember this so clearly that this happened, This has

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Speaker 3: happened in every presidential election in recent history. Where in

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Speaker 3: the middle of the two thousand and eight recession, basically

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Speaker 3: the economic approval rating from when for the before almost

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Speaker 3: elected after Baba's like, it did not change, right. People

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Speaker 3: thought the economy was going terribly for all that on

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Speaker 3: his reasons, but the people who thought it was completely

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Speaker 3: reversed Republicans thought the economy was doing better under Bush

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Speaker 3: immediately thought it was terrible. And then you have black

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Speaker 3: and brown voters who were by far suffering the worst

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Speaker 3: under the resent under the financial crisis. Feeling better about

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Speaker 3: the economy has brought a Babama's president. And then even

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Speaker 3: since then, the number of Republicans willing to say a

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Speaker 3: Democrat is doing well on the economy has going as

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Speaker 3: a kind of pass. It was like fifteen to eighteen

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Speaker 3: people when Obama's present. Now it's under under ten for Biden,

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Speaker 3: and so that's going to lower your ceiling under all scenarios. Now,

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Speaker 3: the challenge for by on this is that his economic

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Speaker 3: approval rating is among Democrats among Democrats is ten to

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Speaker 3: twelve points lower than his overall approval rating among Democrats.

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Speaker 3: I think that's going to change as the election picks up,

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Speaker 3: and I think those two things are going to become

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Speaker 3: one and the same, because how people are going to

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Speaker 3: get think you'd be thinking about Biden versus Trump, or

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Speaker 3: Biden versus Disantas, or Biden versus Doug Program or whoever

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Speaker 3: whoever you want to pick as opposed to Biden versus

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Speaker 3: whatever could possibly be in an ideal scenario. But the

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Speaker 3: thing you look at and you worry about if you're

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Speaker 3: the President's team, you or at least you worry it's

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Speaker 3: serially to worry. It is time to work on fixing

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Speaker 3: is Biden's numbers among economic members, among independents, a group

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Speaker 3: he won in twenty twenty are pretty far underwater, and

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Speaker 3: that had and that's something that is going to have.

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Speaker 3: You have spent a lot of time and money, frankly

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Speaker 3: to change those impressions.

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Speaker 2: But it is interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it seems more and more likely that DeSantis

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Speaker 1: is not going to be the guy.

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Speaker 3: It seems that just help me.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I just think like it's so

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Speaker 1: there seems to be this kind of hail Mary pass

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Speaker 1: from Republican donor class where they're sort of trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out, you know, some other person who is you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing donors doing events for Brook Scott.

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Speaker 2: And I know a friend of mine. You know, they're

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Speaker 2: trying to get youngkin in.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately, I mean, it's not that they don't have

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Speaker 1: enough candidates.

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Speaker 3: No, they have more candidates than they need. It's basically,

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Speaker 3: if you look at the field right now, it's hard

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Speaker 3: to imagine anyone running in this current field who can

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Speaker 3: beat Donald Trump. Right that's just if you look at him,

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Speaker 3: they are immensely flawed. They're not offering what the Party

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Speaker 3: clearly wants. You know, in some in these polls, people's

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Speaker 3: number one thing they want in a candidate who's not

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Speaker 3: Trump is for that candidate to be like Trump. And

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Speaker 3: that was what the Saya's argument was. But he doesn't

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Speaker 3: have the charisma or the skill or Coastald Trump is

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Speaker 3: not just an extreme politician. He's not my cup at tea,

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Speaker 3: but he's a charismatic extreme politician. And DeSantis is Christmas

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Speaker 3: is not a word now I used to describe him.

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Speaker 3: And you know this happens every time. In twenty twelve,

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Speaker 3: when people were pretty satisfied with Romney in that field,

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Speaker 3: there are efforts to get both Rubio and Christita on.

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Speaker 3: I mean there were people basically offering to write you know, five,

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Speaker 3: ten to fifty million dollars checks of super packs to

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Speaker 3: get Chris Christina.

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Speaker 2: On the salad days.

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Speaker 3: Yes for Chris Christy, for sure, Chris CHRISTI. Yeah, like

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Speaker 3: there will be those efforts. I would imagine that maybe

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Speaker 3: more young Kin than Scott, because I don't know sure

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Speaker 3: what Scott's bringing to the table, but young Cain you

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Speaker 3: can see on paper at least. Why the people the

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Speaker 3: sort of people who can write the checks you need

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Speaker 3: to get candidates to run, would be interested in someone

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Speaker 3: like Line. Now Kenny's I mean he is himself a

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Speaker 3: very rich Republican, so there's an affinity.

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Speaker 1: There, what I think is interesting and youngkin. It has

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Speaker 1: the same problem as all of these candidates right there.

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Speaker 1: You can look good on paper and then get in

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Speaker 1: the race, and you know, I mean Desanta's has his

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Speaker 1: problem is every time voters get to know him, they

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Speaker 1: decide they don't like him.

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Speaker 3: I said this on Ponze Repers, which is candidates for

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Speaker 3: president generally can do at least two of the following

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Speaker 3: three things. Be a good speaker in front of a

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Speaker 3: crowd like Obama, right, be really good in a small group.

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Speaker 3: You know where you are, You're talking to Iowa Coccus Coors,

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Speaker 3: and you were just you can persuade them and charm them,

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Speaker 3: you know, like Biden is very good at that, Bill

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Speaker 3: Clinton obviously famously good at that. George Bush quaity good

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Speaker 3: at that actually. Or you are very deaft with the media, right,

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Speaker 3: which was you know that was the Hallmark cot Be pootage.

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Speaker 3: Just as Kifane Trump is in his own weird way,

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Speaker 3: very deaf with the media. Ron DeSantis is good at

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Speaker 3: none of those things. In fact, I think he's actively

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Speaker 3: bad at all of them. There was something diminishing once

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Speaker 3: you get in a race, right, no matter how even

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Speaker 3: Obama came in. He got in that race, and we

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Speaker 3: have twenty thousand people in Springfield, Illinois and Oprah's endorsing him,

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Speaker 3: and then the second year, down fifteen points to Hillary

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Speaker 3: Clinton in the polls, or you're losing to John Edwards

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Speaker 3: and the Iowa coccause you look small, and then you

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Speaker 3: have to build your way out of it, right. Biden

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Speaker 3: had to do that, John McCain had to do that

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight, Romney had to do in

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Speaker 3: twenty twelve. Like there's always a moment where the tests

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Speaker 3: the candidate and if they have a little luck and

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Speaker 3: a lot of skill, they can come back. It's just

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Speaker 3: hard to see any of these candidates, particularly DeSantis, having

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Speaker 3: enough skill. So, you know, like even when Biden was

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Speaker 3: struggling mightily in twenty twenty, you knew that he had

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Speaker 3: a long history, a deep reservoir of support, and one

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Speaker 3: hell of an electability argument against Trump, right, and when

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Speaker 3: McCain was, you know, was basically firing his campaign staff

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight. You knew that he had

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Speaker 3: won some of these states before. There was a deep

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Speaker 3: reservoir support with him among independents, and he was a

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Speaker 3: pretty he was a you know, a very deft politician,

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Speaker 3: and he could come back. John Carey, you know, certainly

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Speaker 3: had an electability argument and a profile that Vic Cannas

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Speaker 3: were looking for in two thousand and four. It's just

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Speaker 3: what has Rohn de Santas had that people want. It's

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Speaker 3: really hard to divine when looking at the race thus far,

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Speaker 3: completely baffling.

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Speaker 1: So twenty twenty four is going to be twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: again unless something humongous have ends. I mean, do you

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Speaker 1: think that that presents an opportunity for all of us

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Speaker 1: to learn from our previous mistakes or do you think

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Speaker 1: we just barrel into another or do you think we

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Speaker 1: all just have nervous breakdowns and die because we can't

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Speaker 1: stand another. I mean, it's basically been a decade taken

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Speaker 1: up by Trump at this point.

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Speaker 3: I think, as you look at it right now, Joe

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Speaker 3: Biden would have to be a slight favorite against Trump

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four. And that says nothing about Joe

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Speaker 3: Biden's political skills or anything if we had national popic

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Speaker 3: food elections, he would be a significant favorite. Well, like,

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Speaker 3: we just have to go into this election no matter

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Speaker 3: what the polls are going to tell us throughout twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four that the total number of voters who will

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Speaker 3: decide the election will be fewer people that attended the

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Speaker 3: most recent Tailer Sweat concert. Like that's what it's going

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Speaker 3: to be, right, It's going to be one hundred thousand

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Speaker 3: people if we're lucky over four or five states, and

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Speaker 3: it's just going to be that close, and it is

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Speaker 3: a game of inches. And I think that is one

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Speaker 3: thing where I think we the world thought that that

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Speaker 3: political gravity was real, and that or at least political

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Speaker 3: gravity was stronger than polarization and structure and the structural

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Speaker 3: advantage electoral college. And it's not right no matter Trump,

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Speaker 3: even with Trump could be have three convictions under his

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Speaker 3: belt and he's probably going to do all at least

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Speaker 3: pretty close to as well as he was doing in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty And what what is like the most worrisome

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Speaker 3: thing here is you talked about it, and I've talked

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Speaker 3: about it, is what role is a third party candidate

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Speaker 3: play here, whether it's Joe Manchin and Fred Upton or

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Speaker 3: John Huntsman or Frankly Cornell West. All it takes is

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Speaker 3: a few thousand voters you know who either were Trump

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Speaker 3: Biden you know, go no labels this time, or you

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Speaker 3: know a lot of voters you know we've Biden did

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Speaker 3: overwhelmingly well with the people who voted for a third

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Speaker 3: party candidate twenty sixteen. He won those I think by

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Speaker 3: like two to one or three to one, and if

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Speaker 3: any of those people go back to third parties, that

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Speaker 3: could be the difference in some of these states. And

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Speaker 3: so that is there is this additional factor that we're

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Speaker 3: going to have to be very vigilant of. And we

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Speaker 3: all came out of twenty sixteen and recognizing the danger

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Speaker 3: of it, and our party team tends to forget these

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Speaker 3: things over time. Right, It's obviously why Al Gore loss.

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Speaker 3: We cared passionately about it. We're conservative. It didn't really

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Speaker 3: matter in two thousand and eight, we didn't have one.

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Speaker 3: Twenty twelve, twenty sixteen, it was the death of us,

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Speaker 3: maybe literally, and we're back at it in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: When we talk.

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Speaker 1: About no labels, those guys, Mark Penn, I mean, how

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Speaker 1: angry are you Mark pennon no Labels is the brainchild

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Speaker 1: of a man who used to be a Democrat.

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Speaker 3: I have been basically angry at Mark Penn for going

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Speaker 3: on like seventeen years now, so even when he was

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Speaker 3: still active in Democratic Party. Is one of the more

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Speaker 3: malicious forces and more malicious and avarice forces at our party.

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Speaker 3: I think no one who has noted hammer, worked around him,

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Speaker 3: or worked against him is shocked that this is where

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Speaker 3: we have ended up, Mark.

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Speaker 1: Penn and Nancy Jacobson, I mean and raising millions and

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars from Republicans.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, who understand exactly what that money is for. But

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Speaker 3: I mean Nelson Pelts gave millions of dollars. There are

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Speaker 3: people in the Pelts family who I love and who

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Speaker 3: are my friends. But on the other side of it

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Speaker 3: is Nelson who is a Republican mega donor and who's

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Speaker 3: giving this money in the hopes of helping Trump. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and did Trump go to his birthday party pretty recently?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes he can't Donald Trump a ten your

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Speaker 3: birth already. And that also somehow believe in some fantastical

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Speaker 3: third party return to CENTRALSM Like those two things are

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Speaker 3: not compatible.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this whole thing is bullshit. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: certainly a real threat. It's very real. I continually I'm

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Speaker 1: just shocked by the idea that Trump has been indicted twice,

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Speaker 1: probably coming up on a third, impeached twice, and really

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Speaker 1: he somehow, I mean, you don't think that's going to

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Speaker 1: make the base a little smaller.

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Speaker 3: I think we should operate as if it won't. It

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Speaker 3: certainly can be. There are going to be a lot

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Speaker 3: of people, I think who voted for I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It is a very real question. You would think that

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Speaker 3: a party of that seems like they would care about electability,

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Speaker 3: would be concerned about backing a guy who's been indicted

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Speaker 3: twice and soon to be three and maybe four times.

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Speaker 3: But polarization is very real. And if he is a nominee,

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Speaker 3: no matter how many times he gets indebted mriter of

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Speaker 3: our times, it gets convicted, no matter what he says,

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Speaker 3: no matter what tape comes out a week before the election,

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Speaker 3: down Trump is going to go into election day two

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Speaker 3: inches from the end zone. Right, He's been the one

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Speaker 3: yard line. And that is just That's how it is.

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Speaker 3: And that is true of DeSantis, that is true of

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Speaker 3: Doug Bergum, it's true of Glenn Youngkin or Rick Scott

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Speaker 3: like that's where we are in Trump is potentially more

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Speaker 3: dangerous than those because he's the only person in the

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Speaker 3: Republican Party who has shown a capacity to jack up

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Speaker 3: turnout beyond previously known levels in rural areas. It's not

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Speaker 3: just how you have to get to think. You have

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Speaker 3: to look at support levels in turnout levels. And he

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Speaker 3: moved support levels and among Republicans and rule areas from

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Speaker 3: where Democrats were in twenty twelve. But in Republicans, no

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Speaker 3: matter what the running for Senate, Congress, governor, have kept

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Speaker 3: those support levels, but they haven't gotten in turnout levels,

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Speaker 3: which is why Democrats won in seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two. Trump is different ways on the ballot, and

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Speaker 3: so I think we just have to operate. Is if

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Speaker 3: this is going to be an incredibly close election, no

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Speaker 3: matter what insane like, that should be the less. No

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Speaker 3: matter what insane, thank terrible thing he does, matterhigt of

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Speaker 3: times he gets convicted or indicted or whatever else, this

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Speaker 3: is going to be a game of benches.

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Speaker 1: Dan, thank you so much for coming on and joining us.

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Speaker 1: And now I will go and move to a pineapple

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Speaker 1: under the sea.

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Speaker 3: But thank you. Yes, I apologize for ending on that.

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Speaker 3: Not so and that's what let's take note.

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Speaker 1: Joyce Vance is a professor at University of Alabama and

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Speaker 1: host of the podcast Sisters in Law.

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Speaker 2: I am so excited to have my friend.

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Speaker 1: Who I really really like and who I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do a panel with.

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Speaker 2: At the Texas Trip Fast That's right, we are. I'm

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Speaker 2: very excited about that.

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Speaker 4: That's going to be great.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be amazing, Joyce Vance, Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you. Great week to be with you, Mollie.

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Speaker 2: It is a great week.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's hot and we're and you're in Alabama,

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Speaker 1: so it's really hot.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you guys don't know what hot is. It's a

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Speaker 4: terrible down here.

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Speaker 1: Our listeners know a little bit about what's going on.

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Speaker 1: But I would love you to give USS like a

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Speaker 1: two second primer on Trump's many legal challenges.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, if I only have two seconds, let

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Speaker 4: me talk.

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Speaker 2: Oh you last ten minutes, yes, but go on.

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Speaker 4: Yes, he's in a lot of trouble, right, and it's

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Speaker 4: great civil and criminal and typically we think that going

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Speaker 4: to jail is the worst thing that can happen to

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Speaker 4: a person, and it is a terrible thing. But in

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Speaker 4: Trump's cases, he faces some really severe civil consequences as well.

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Speaker 4: So let me start there.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm, that's interesting.

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Speaker 4: Egene Carrol is going to take Trump back to trial

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Speaker 4: on defamation charges. The verdict she won earlier this year

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Speaker 4: for five million dollars was actually the second case she

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Speaker 4: filed that was comments he made about her after he

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Speaker 4: left the presidency. But now in January, she's entitled to

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Speaker 4: go back to trial on comments he made while he

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Speaker 4: was the president, using the megaphone of the presidency. And

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Speaker 4: the interesting thing about this case is most of the

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Speaker 4: issues are resolved in civil litigation. When an issue has

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Speaker 4: been resolved between two parties in prior litigation, that ruling

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Speaker 4: holds in future cases. In other words, you can't keep

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Speaker 4: litigating over and over and over again whether or not

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump acted with actual malice towards Egen Carroll. Pretty

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Speaker 4: Much the only issue that's at stake in this next

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Speaker 4: trial is the issue of damages. And here's the argument

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Speaker 4: we can expect Eging Carroll's very capable lawyer, Robbie Caplan

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Speaker 4: to make. She's going to say, we successfully suit him

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Speaker 4: for defamation, and the next day he got on national

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Speaker 4: television and he defamed her again. So now, ladies and

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Speaker 4: gentlemen of the jury, your job is to issue an

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Speaker 4: amount of damages that will be sufficient to make him stop.

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Speaker 4: Five million dollars wasn't enough, you know? And what do

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Speaker 4: you think ten fifteen. It'll depend on what the jury

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Speaker 4: wants to do. That case is serious for Trump, and

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Speaker 4: there are other civil cases. For instance, the New York

438
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 4: Attorney General is trying to impose what's sometimes called the

439
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 4: death penalty for businesses on his New York operations. So

440
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 4: that case scheduled for this ball, but it may get

441
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,719
Speaker 4: pushed out of the way by some of the criminal stuff.

442
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 4: They're the Manhattan DA's charges, charges that pre date Trump

443
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 4: going into the presidency and which by the way, can't

444
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 4: be pardoned by a president. Those are state charges. There's

445
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,439
Speaker 4: the Maral Logo case, and I think we all know

446
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 4: what's going on there. The real issue is will doj

447
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 4: be able to try that case before the election or not?

448
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,959
Speaker 4: The evidence is overwhelming. Next on the ticket is probably

449
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 4: a separate investigation. Jack Smith is running the investigation into

450
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 4: January sixth. That's a big case. It's not just January sixth.

451
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 4: There's both a pre election component, a resolving the election component,

452
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 4: and then a trying to interfere with the certification and

453
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 4: the transfer of power component. It is unlikely at this

454
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 4: point that Smith will be able to try this case

455
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 4: before the election. So I think a lot of this

456
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 4: comes down to what evidence he wants to put forward

457
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 4: in the indictment. I would expect a big, speaking indictment,

458
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 4: and then of course Georgia. We don't know who's going

459
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 4: to go first, Jack Smith or Georgia.

460
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: You're pretty sure there's going to be another Jack Smith indictment.

461
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 4: So it's an interesting question, Molly, because sometimes what prosecutors

462
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 4: will do in a close case is they'll give the

463
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 4: evidence to the grand jury and they'll they'll let the

464
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 4: grand jury make the decision about whether there's enough. But

465
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 4: Jack Smith looks like he's playing for keeps. He's brought

466
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 4: in all of the witnesses, including the former vice president.

467
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 4: They're working hard, they're working fast. That has to be

468
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 4: done in this case, whether you're going to indict or not.

469
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 4: But he looks like Key's for real, and we're on

470
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 4: the DOJ timeline. We're on the summer timeline. So I

471
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 4: would expect that if we're going to see an indictment,

472
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 4: it will be in the next few weeks.

473
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 2: Okay, So, and then let's talk about Georgia.

474
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 4: Fannie willis experienced prosecutor, well versed in the use of

475
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 4: Georgia's Mini Rico statute. She too, is looking at a

476
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 4: lot of moving parts. It almost seems to me that

477
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 4: there might be an inside Georgia case involving Georgia politicians

478
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 4: and fake electors, and then an external influence case, or

479
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 4: she may indict it altogether. There's some value in bringing

480
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 4: everything at once. But she has signaled as strongly as

481
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 4: she can, telling the judges in her courthouse that she

482
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 4: plans on having her folks work remotely in late August

483
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 4: or early September. That looks to me like she's serious.

484
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 2: So you think that will be late August early September.

485
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 4: You know, she has paneled two new grand juries just

486
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 4: this week. Presumably those are the grand juries that will

487
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 4: hear any criminal indictments. They could end today, but she

488
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 4: has sent this letter to the court suggesting that that

489
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 4: would be a good time to not schedule hearings and

490
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 4: that her folks will be working from home. I'd call

491
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 4: that a signal.

492
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: Right, all right, yeah, that does sound like a signal.

493
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: We've already seen now that Trump has decided he's going

494
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: to run out the clock, right that that is his tactic,

495
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 1: and we've seen him do that before. The Jack Smith

496
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: case for now, anyway, is in Florida. So the question

497
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: I think I wonder is can he run out the

498
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,479
Speaker 1: clock in Florida with Jack Smith? Because of this maga

499
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: judge Judge Eileen Cannon, right.

500
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 4: And it's largely up to her. She has discretion. We

501
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 4: saw her rather than holding the lawyer's feet to the

502
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 4: fire and holding her first the sip of pre trial

503
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 4: conference on schedule and classified discovery, instead of really requiring

504
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 4: the defense lawyers to do what she'd told him to do,

505
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 4: she gave him a couple of extra days. You know,

506
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 4: in the ultimate scheme of things, three days probably not

507
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 4: a big deal. But if that becomes weeks to resolve motions,

508
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 4: or if the lawyers say, you know, I need to

509
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 4: go on vacation and she says, okay, go ahead and go,

510
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 4: then it becomes really impossible to get this case to

511
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 4: trial ahead of the election. And this is a case

512
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 4: that could be prepared to try pretty quickly. Something interesting,

513
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 4: Molly that I'll just flag for you is that when

514
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 4: the defense lawyers were trying to argue that there shouldn't

515
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 4: even be a trial setting that discovery would be really complicated,

516
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 4: they were relying on thirty year old cases. You know,

517
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 4: Manuel Noriega, right, Classified discovery is never easy. It's always complicated.

518
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 4: It's gotten a lot more streamlined in the last thirty years.

519
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 4: We have much better access to technology, and so yes, defendants'

520
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,959
Speaker 4: rights do have to be protected. They have to have

521
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 4: sufficient time. It is not easy, but it's not trial

522
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 4: three years from now.

523
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: Not easy.

524
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 4: It's trial in the spring, not easy.

525
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: Right, right right? I mean will he be able to

526
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 2: run out the clock?

527
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 4: Two questions? One will the judge do her job? I

528
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 4: wish I was more optimistic than I am about that. Second,

529
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 4: will Jack Smith go to the Eleventh Circuit to seek refusal?

530
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 4: I think he will do that on her first really

531
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 4: bad ruling. I'm not sure that they shouldn't have done

532
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 4: it right away, but you know, asking a judge to

533
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 4: recuse those are sensitive issues. Perhaps the prosecutors felt better

534
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 4: about her, but it's not just this issue of how

535
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 4: fast she goes to trial. The real problem here is

536
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 4: that once the jury is sworn in and their in

537
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 4: trial rulings that she makes about important things like what

538
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 4: evidence can go in, what arguments the prosecution can make.

539
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 4: If Trump gets an acquittal, the prosecution can't appeal those things,

540
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: And so the judge can really put her thumb on

541
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 4: the scale of justice if she's inclined to. And that's

542
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 4: the big question here. Is she inclined to?

543
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 5: I mean, it seems like she might be right. The

544
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 5: problem is we don't know. And so here's how lawyers

545
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 5: resolve that kind of an issue. Judges are supposed to

546
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 5: avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Maybe she as pure

547
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 5: as the driven snow. But if she was a responsible judge,

548
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 5: she would say, I know that these two earlier cases

549
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 5: where the Eleventh Circuit really called me for being out

550
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 5: of bounds, they create an appearance of impropriety, and I'm

551
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 5: going to recuse from handling this case. That might have

552
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 5: meant that DOJ would get another Trump appointed judge, right,

553
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 5: and that would be just fine.

554
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, aren't there only four? I mean in

555
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: that district in Florida.

556
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 4: It depends on division, right, Every federal district. There ninety

557
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 4: four across the country. They're mostly divided into divisions. She's

558
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 4: in Fort Pierce. There are questions about where in the

559
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 4: district this case should be tried. I wonder if we

560
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 4: won't ultimately see it in the big courthouse in Miami

561
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 4: for security reasons.

562
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: Oh.

563
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 4: Interesting, A lot of little issues there, but it doesn't

564
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 4: really matter, you know, if it's a Trump appointed judge

565
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 4: or not. You just don't want to judge where. A

566
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 4: lot of people will will have lingering questions that there's

567
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 4: a serious appearance of impropriety, not just not something speculative.

568
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 4: This is a serious appearance of impropriety.

569
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: Can you talk to us a little bit about Walton

570
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: not Trump's co defendant.

571
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 4: I find it to be a little bit difficult to

572
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 4: not feel somewhat sorry for him.

573
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. Yeah.

574
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 4: This is somebody who came to the military from Guam,

575
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 4: from sort of humble origins, you know, phenomenally successful, gets

576
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 4: to work with the President of the United States, and

577
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 4: that power imbalance and just that whole scenario I think

578
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 4: helps us understand why Walt Nauda is where he is.

579
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 4: He sticks with Trump. When Trump leaves the presidency, he

580
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: moves around these boxes with classified material, and it is

581
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 4: entirely possible. And look, we're all reading tea leaves, but

582
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 4: I think this is what the indictment adds up to

583
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 4: now to takes those boxes and takes them to Trump

584
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 4: so that Trump can look through stuff and pulse stuff

585
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 4: out he does not want the government to find and

586
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 4: maybe now even put some of that material into Trump's

587
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 4: hands so he can take it to Bedminster with him.

588
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 4: There's less clarity on that right now. Seems reasonable. So

589
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 4: if now to you know, if I was walting out

590
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 4: as defense lawyer, I am nobody's defense lawyer. But if

591
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 4: I was in this scenario representing my client and his interests,

592
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 4: I would say, buddy, you're looking at twenty years plus

593
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 4: in prison. Let's go cut a deal with the government.

594
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 4: And so there's this concern because the reporting is that

595
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: his lawyers are paid for by Trump's pack. Maybe even

596
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 4: Trump had to sign off right on the lawyer. And

597
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 4: we've seen this before Trump's lawyers.

598
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: You know that there's a sort of mafia thing where

599
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: if they pay for your lawyers, that means they set

600
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: your defense.

601
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 4: Exactly, and it's not supposed to be that way. The

602
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 4: lawyers still have an obligation to represent the client, but

603
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 4: really are they What we know here from the media

604
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 4: is that there was an offer made to Nauda pre trial,

605
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 4: and his lawyers sort of blew it off and claimed

606
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 4: that there had been prosecutorial impropriety in that meeting. So

607
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 4: whether or not Walt Nauda is well served by his

608
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 4: lawyers remains to be seen.

609
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: But it's not like Walt Nada is in a place

610
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: where he can afford these lawyers. And I was hoping

611
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: you could talk about this because I was reporting about this.

612
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: The Florida lawyers kind of got together and decided they

613
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: were going to charge Trump all out of money.

614
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 4: Well, look, Trump is a dangerous client to take on.

615
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: Right, but you need to have a specific kind of

616
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: security clearance to take that job.

617
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 4: You need to be able to obtain a clearance. And

618
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 4: what DOJ has represented is that the FBI is prepared to,

619
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 4: you know, do those clearances expeditiously, just in a matter

620
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 4: of days.

621
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: So it's not you can't be Michael Cohen and get

622
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: that clearance.

623
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 4: I think that that's right. You have to be able

624
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 4: to get a clearance. But look, a lot of people

625
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 4: can have a security clearance, Molly, I held you know,

626
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 4: a top secret sci claim parents for many years in

627
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 4: my life. And so there are plenty of former United

628
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 4: States Attorneys assistant United States Attorneys in Miami who are

629
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 4: members of the bar in that court who would have

630
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 4: been available in this three week search that resulted in

631
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 4: a lawyer who is very well qualified to do state

632
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 4: criminal work and state family court work, but who has

633
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 4: never been in federal court, wasn't even registered in the

634
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 4: federal filing system, right. The judge had to order that

635
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 4: she'd be entered into that. That's concerning, and that sort

636
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 4: of breaks your heart for mister Nada. He should have

637
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 4: a lawyer representing him, not Donald Trump. There are a

638
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 4: lot of people who put Donald Trump's interests first.

639
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems likely that that is how it

640
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: will go for poor Walt Nada, who is an adult

641
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: who makes his own decisions, but still clearly everything Trump touches,

642
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: you know.

643
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course there's Cassidy Hutchinson, right, Absolutely, Trump lawyers,

644
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 4: and so you wonder if something like that might not

645
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 4: happen for now to maybe he will talk to prosecutors,

646
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 4: maybe he will hear something in court, but it's the

647
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 4: financial issue. Right, how do you if your walt now

648
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 4: to figure out how to go and put down whatever

649
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 4: it is a couple hundred thousand dollars as a retainer

650
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 4: for your own lawyers.

651
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, completely crazy. So let me ask you.

652
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: Now, you know we're watching this Trump legal drama unfold.

653
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: I mean, how much of a stress to using this

654
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: is to Trump? You know, because politically he hasn't paid

655
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: a price, but you know he's seventy seven years old.

656
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 4: To a normal human being, this would be really stressful, right,

657
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 4: just the fact that you were dealing with all these

658
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 4: legal issues, we're going to have to be in court

659
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 4: a good bit. But Trump is sort of suey generous.

660
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 4: He's just cut from his own cloth. He's very unique.

661
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 4: I think he has skated through so much of his life.

662
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 4: Maybe he thinks, you know, he can rule double sixes

663
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 4: one more time and break free from all of it.

664
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 4: And certainly to your earlier point, Molly, and you seem

665
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 4: to be awfully savvy about how this works for a

666
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 4: non lawyer. I have to say that every time I

667
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 4: listen to you, I think that.

668
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, why trying to just say anything stupid?

669
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: Because I'm not a lawyer, so I just ask a

670
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: lot of questions.

671
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 4: Well, you know, it takes a whole village of us

672
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 4: to try to figure this out, right, But trum Trump's

673
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 4: game is to win in twenty twenty four and then

674
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 4: he has to get out of jail free card, and

675
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 4: that is the fight for democracy's life that we are

676
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 4: going to live through.

677
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: I have to say, like, it definitely seems like that's

678
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: the plan, is that he's going to be able to

679
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: because if he wins again, he can just punt everything

680
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: down the road and then pardon himself.

681
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, he can appoint his own attorney general,

682
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 4: he can ignore the courts. I mean, he has shown

683
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 4: a willingness to get away with behavior that is not

684
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 4: the way presidents behave in a democracy.

685
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, unbelievable. So there are no legal mechanisms. The thing

686
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: I'm struck by again and again when we talk about

687
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: this is like, this is a more of a theoretical

688
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: question that I just want you to sort of bat around,

689
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: which is Trump really was able to grow in a

690
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: system where no one had ever been like that? Can

691
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: you explain because there's no mechanism for like someone who

692
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: operates without shame or remorse.

693
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the key to

694
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 4: Trump's success. There are no norms, there is only self interest,

695
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 4: and so Bob Muller and the Muller investigation is a

696
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 4: great way to think about this. Muller an institutionalist, right,

697
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 4: a straight arrow who believed in the system and believed

698
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 4: that if he worked within the confines of the system,

699
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 4: there would be accountability, if not from DOJ from Congress.

700
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 4: That was not the paradigm that Trump was living in.

701
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 4: And Trump shamelessly obstructed that investigtionation should still, in my judgment,

702
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 4: have been criminally charged for obstruction of justice based on

703
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 4: the Muller report. But we lived in a system of

704
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 4: deference where too many people thought, if we can just

705
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 4: get a little bit further down the road, this crazy

706
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 4: guy is going to disappear and everything will be restored.

707
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 4: And the lesson of Trump and his failure to play

708
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 4: by the rules is that it's a tough needle to thread. Mollie,

709
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 4: you cannot destroy all the norms. You cannot become Trump.

710
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 4: To destroy Trump, right, that really would be the end

711
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 4: of democracy. I mean, crowds of people shouting, you know,

712
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 4: lock him up when he hasn't been convicted in a

713
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 4: criminal court. We cannot let him turn us into that.

714
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 4: But that said, we have to be stronger, we have

715
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 4: to be more evolved. We've seen some of that from

716
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 4: Jack Smith, right, He's been a little bit take no prisoners.

717
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 4: But by the same token, there's still that missing first

718
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 4: year where DJ did not want to engage on the

719
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 4: Trump portion of the January sixth case, and ultimately that

720
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 4: lost year may cost us an awful lot.

721
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: So interesting.

722
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you, I know, to come in and

723
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: have to talk about sort of the whole gestalt is a.

724
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 2: Bit weird, but we really needed you.

725
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 4: It's not weird. It's my favorite thing to do. I'll

726
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 4: come back anytime and I'll bring my dollie to market

727
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 4: your dollar.

728
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: Yes, I would love it.

729
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: Hi, it's Molly and I am wildly excited that for

730
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: the first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening to

731
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: right now.

732
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: Is going to have merch for sale.

733
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: Over at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com.

734
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 2: You can now buy shirts.

735
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: Hats, hoodies, and toe bags with our incredible designs.

736
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: We've heard your cries to spread the word.

737
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: About our podcast and get a tow bag with my

738
00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: adorable Leo. The rescue Puppy on it and now you

739
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: can grab this merchandise only at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com.

740
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: Thanks for your support.

741
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: Alex Thompson is a national correspondent at Axios.

742
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: Welcome Too Fast Politics, Alex Thompson.

743
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 3: Glad to be here.

744
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: Alex, tell us what your beat is.

745
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: I'm covering the twenty twenty four election, so a little

746
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: bit of the GOP car wreck, and then also that

747
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: Biden reelect as well.

748
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: And you also are writing a book about Biden. I am,

749
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: so you know a lot of stuff. Now you are

750
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: in the process of writing this book. We're not getting

751
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: you're good when you're at peak dish.

752
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 3: No, that will come in about a year.

753
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: But we can still probably bully or manipulate you into telling.

754
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 2: Us some interesting stuff.

755
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 3: I think you can.

756
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a hope.

757
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit first about the Republican side,

758
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: because what I mean, and I know you're not on

759
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: the opinion side, so you don't don't feel that you

760
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: have to give your opinion. I will just manipulate you

761
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: into doing it. What is happening with this GOP primary field?

762
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 3: I mean, essentially it's Trump versus everybody and You're seeing

763
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 3: every single candidate try to figure out is there a

764
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: way to change the dynamic of this primary now. Some

765
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 3: are just hoping for the debate stage. You see Chris

766
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 3: Christy base and you know, arguing you have to go

767
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 3: right through him. You have someone like Tim Scott who

768
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 3: essentially is trying to play nice with everybody and just

769
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 3: focus on his own image and never attacks anyone and

770
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 3: just feels that the party may come to him in

771
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: order to go to a fresh face. Then you have

772
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: someone like DeSantis in between, who is is basically picking

773
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 3: and choosing his spots, you know, saying Trump was a

774
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 3: good president, but and trying to you know, in some

775
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 3: ways that is subtle. In some ways that is overt

776
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 3: contract himself. But essentially Trump is the four in ch

777
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 3: of Pound Gorilla. He is the King Kong of the race,

778
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 3: and every single Republican strategists is scratching their heads trying

779
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 3: to think, how can we change that dynamic?

780
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: Tell me if I'm wrong, You're really much more in

781
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: it than I am.

782
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: But it does feel like twenty sixteen all over again.

783
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: That's interesting. I mean, I think there are a lot

784
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 3: of parallels. I'd say the biggest difference between the two

785
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: sides is that Trump at the beginning was pulling and like,

786
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: you know, you have to remember in June of twenty fifteen,

787
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: that's when Trump gets in the race, and he was

788
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 3: in single digits and then he just sort of took

789
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 3: off like a rocket ship and people were sort of

790
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 3: in denial that he could actually win. And this time

791
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 3: there is a sense of, well he is, like, there's

792
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 3: an almost an air of inevability. But in terms of

793
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: I think what you're talking about is trying to figure

794
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 3: out how to go at him. We are seeing basically

795
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 3: everyone recycle all the saying strategies.

796
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 2: It didn't work that and it's not working now.

797
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: No, And I think maybe the only big difference is

798
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 3: you're seeing Ron de Santis go to where Ted Cruz

799
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 3: was near the end. You know, you're seeing Ronda Santis

800
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 3: to it earlier.

801
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: And Ron DeSantis has a lot of Ted Cruz's people.

802
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 3: Yes, it's not a coincidence that the teams are very similar.

803
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 3: I can tell you that Senator Cruz has remarked to

804
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: other people, well, he's like, you know, those are a

805
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 3: lot of my people over there. On both the official

806
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 3: and the Super PAC side. You know, in some ways

807
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 3: you could argue that they're trying to run the Ted

808
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 3: Cruz twice sixteen campaign, but just with a different candidate.

809
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, as someone who was the one they found, the

810
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: one person less likable than Ted Cruz to run as

811
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 1: Ted Cruz. Will see how it goes.

812
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 3: But it does.

813
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: Seem like the demise of Ron De Santis politically. He

814
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: does seem to have captured the headlines. It's been four months,

815
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: it feels like. And again, you can answer this however

816
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: you want, that the more voters know him, the less

817
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,240
Speaker 1: they want him.

818
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 3: I agree and disagree with you, So I'll say I

819
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: disagree with you and that I don't think anyone is

820
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 3: ever as dumb or as smart as the national narrative is.

821
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 3: I do think we're we are employees to potentially see

822
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 3: a DeSantis like comeback. Boomletke by far and away as

823
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 3: the most money of any candidate in the race that

824
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: includes Trump. Yeah, that's not nothing. And I do think

825
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 3: he has the most advanced team in Iowa on the ground,

826
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 3: and I do think they are getting a little bit

827
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: more comfortable now that all being said, I think his

828
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 3: rollout was a mess beyond just the Twitter stuff, I

829
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 3: think really beyond. But there is this very you know,

830
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 3: we talked, I just talked about how he has so

831
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: much money, But the reasoning has so much money is

832
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 3: because of this weird interplay with the super Pack. It's

833
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 3: not sometimes clear to anybody, to donors, people, even in

834
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 3: the DeSantis world, who actually is in charge. And thet's

835
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: closest age that went over to super Pack. Phil Klock

836
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 3: has already not been fired. But let's you know, he

837
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 3: essentially has already been thrown out of the Superpack. So

838
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 3: there's no one over at the super Pac that has

839
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: you know, there's a few people, but the original team

840
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 3: that was supposed to be close to the Santis isn't

841
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 3: the super Pac anymore so, and that's caused a lot

842
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 3: of confusion. That's why you see this sort of messaging

843
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: that goes, you know, seems to go up and down.

844
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: You also saw that at the very beginning, they were

845
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 3: so confident, they were like, we don't need the mainstream media.

846
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 3: The mainstream media doesn't matter now. And now I can

847
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: tell you reporters on the campaign jar getting like pitched

848
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 3: by the DeSantis people, you know, multiple times a day

849
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: to write stories. So you know, clearly they now have

850
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 3: conceded the mainstream media as much as they hate it,

851
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: you know, does matter a bit when you're trying to present.

852
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, who could have thunk it there?

853
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I do feel like some of the

854
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: problem with Desanta's world is they're too smart by half, right,

855
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: Santa's had Susan. I want you to explain to our

856
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: listeners because this is like in the Weeds, who Susie

857
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: Wyle is and why losing her may have ultimately have

858
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: sort of reverberations that are impossible to quantify.

859
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 3: This is one of the most fascinating subplots. It's very

860
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 3: Shakespearean right in the way that is so Susie Wilds

861
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 3: worked for Trump in twenty sixteen. Then she is brought

862
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 3: in after Ronda Santis, you know, wins the Gubernatoria Republican primary,

863
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 3: and what's an upset The National Republican Party is like,

864
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 3: we got to get better people in there. So they

865
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 3: bring Susie Wiles, who led Florida for Trump in twenty sixteen,

866
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: she comes in, Ronda Santis wins, she joins the administration,

867
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: and within a year she's on the outs and not

868
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 3: just like oh, she went to go spend time with

869
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 3: her family sort of on the outs. It's like, no,

870
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 3: she is on the outs. We never want to speak

871
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 3: to her again. She's terrible, And Ronda Santa is basically

872
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: telling that anyone who will listen, you cannot hire Susie Wilds.

873
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 3: So it is. It was an acrimonious scored shars, yes,

874
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 3: and na Cuzy Wilds is essentially they don't have titles

875
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 3: of her, you know, the top tier of the Trump campaign,

876
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 3: but basentially in practice she is co campaign manager of

877
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 3: the Trump re election. Now there's a few practical things.

878
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 3: It is not a coincidence that you have seen a

879
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 3: lot of shit talking from former DeSantis aids. You know,

880
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 3: it seems like every other story, I mean, going back

881
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 3: to twenty twelve. Basically, Ron DeSantis does not have besides

882
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 3: his wife, does not have many loyalists around him, and

883
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 3: a lot of people feel burned. And so there is

884
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 3: a large group of desantus alumni that are willing to

885
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 3: should talk him and you know, I think having Susie Wilds,

886
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 3: who knows all those people. There's a bunch of former

887
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 3: DeSantis people from the twenty eighteen campaign that are now

888
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 3: on the Trump team and I think the acrimonies of

889
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 3: that relationship has really enabled for a lot of these

890
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: embarrassing stories about DeSantis to come out, and it is

891
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 3: going to be fascinating, just like everything in politics, like

892
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, comes down to personal relationships.

893
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 3: And there is none that's sort of more interesting than

894
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: the Susie Wiles and DeSantis's hatred, like red hot rage

895
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: toward her.

896
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting. I don't want to like spend this

897
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: whole time talking about this one, aid, but Susan wild

898
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: is really good. She is very respected. The number you know,

899
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: the Trump world, it's almost it's so easy to find

900
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: people to shit talk to each other. I mean, that's

901
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: been like a dynamic of that world, you know, going

902
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: back to when he was in business, and that comes

903
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 1: from the top down because Trump loves to gossip and

904
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,479
Speaker 1: chit talk and people usually close with So I bring

905
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,959
Speaker 1: that up because to this day, I mean, I'm sure

906
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: it does exist, but no one has shit talked to

907
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: Susie Wilds in that world.

908
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 3: They've all should talk to each other. But I think

909
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 3: there is real respect. I mean, she is this is

910
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 3: not Corey Lewandowski here, I mean.

911
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 2: And she's very powerful in Florida.

912
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: So I don't know, maybe it's me that this subplot

913
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: of the older woman getting you know, mistreated by this

914
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: younger campaign and then going and sort of bringing back

915
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: her power to this, I just think it's a pretty

916
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: interesting step up. I want to get back to the

917
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: publican party primary is DeSantis, Trump and everyone else.

918
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: But mostly it's just Trump and everyone else.

919
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's fair to say. And what's going

920
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 3: to be a really interesting to watch is if Trump

921
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 3: does not show up to the first debate, does that

922
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: mean that everyone treats DeSantis, you know, as a punching bag,

923
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 3: Because I think the Santis obviously wants this to be

924
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 3: a Trump versus DeSantis race because that elevates him. But

925
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 3: every other candidate is waiting to take DeSantis down so

926
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: that it becomes Trump versus versus everybody. And you know,

927
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 3: DeSantis committing to going to that debate and Trump, if

928
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 3: he steps it out, could end up being a really

929
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 3: brutal SmackDown per desantas if he's not ready for it.

930
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's likely not, because we've seen him try

931
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: to interact with others, with humans and it does not

932
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: go great. Let's talk about the Biden reelect. We got

933
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: Biden tell us what's happening behind the scenes, moving people around,

934
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 1: and also talk to us about that rage story.

935
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 3: Absolutely, So I'll start with the rage story and then

936
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 3: I'll go into sort of where the reelect is. Right now,

937
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 3: Joe Biden has this very carefully cultivated image of the

938
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 3: kindly uncle, kindly grandpa, treat everybody with respect. But I

939
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 3: can tell you behind closed doors, this guy's a yeller

940
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 3: and will lead aids sometimes pretty shaken, especially if they're

941
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 3: not used to it. Sometimes his rages can get so

942
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 3: intense that you'll literally have an aid nervous to meet

943
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 3: alone with him, and will bring in other people to

944
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 3: come into the meeting because they know they're going to

945
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 3: give him bad news and that way that the sort

946
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 3: of firing line can be distributed. I'd also say that

947
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 3: this does undermine sort of his public image, but also

948
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 3: does undermine the Republican image of him basically being a

949
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 3: brain in a jar, right, which is sort of what

950
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 3: they try to insinuate every day. And I tell you,

951
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 3: I was talking to somebody who was talking people in

952
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 3: the White House and they were just like, man, you know,

953
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 3: I wish you was senile.

954
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 2: Because right right, because.

955
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: Yeah right, So Republicans are like, he's see now, he's

956
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: see now. This story is actually helps make the case

957
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: that Biden is competent. And by the way, nobody gives.

958
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: We're not on cable news, so I can say this

959
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: a shit. If a man is a mean boss, right,

960
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: nobody cares. In fact, they may like it right a

961
00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: woman forget it right. We remember what happened with the

962
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: rumors Senator Cloba show. But I mean, maybe it does somewhere,

963
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: but it seems very likely to not hurt Biden. I

964
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: wonder why the Biden administration wouldn't necessarily want this out there.

965
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 3: It was interesting to me and reporting the story out

966
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 3: because it wasn't handed to me. I certainly worked on

967
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 3: it for a bit. But then once I went to them,

968
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 3: you know, this is a white House that is very

969
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 3: aggressive and defending its people, and this is one of

970
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: those stories. And part of it was because I know

971
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 3: they know it through. But they didn't push back that hard.

972
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 3: You know, they basically were like, let's give you some

973
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 3: added context on like other nice things he does essentially right,

974
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 3: and they didn't push back on any of the underlying facts,

975
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 3: which to me reading between the lines. I did sort

976
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 3: of wonder if they wouldn't mind this, because I can

977
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 3: tell you behind closed doors, they may say, oh, you know,

978
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 3: it's fine, but they are very worried about these age

979
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 3: numbers and the poll of course, and they're trying to

980
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 3: figure out how to change.

981
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 2: It, right.

982
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the joke is that I just wrote about

983
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: this yesterday at many Fair, was like, you cannot have

984
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: this conversation, Like you can have this conversation about Biden's

985
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: age if he's running against DeSantis, but if he's running

986
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: against Trump, and it becomes a contest of who is healthier,

987
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: and is Biden, the guy who bikes every day healthier

988
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: than Trump, the guy who had COVID and lied about

989
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: how sick he was, Like, you know, and Trump is

990
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: three years younger than Biden.

991
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 2: I mean, this is going to bite them in the ass.

992
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: And it's funny because I think about, like if you

993
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: go back in time to the debate performances, right, the

994
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: Trump world was like, Biden is terrible debater. He's going

995
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: to be terrible. He can't talk. So then he opened

996
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: his mouth and people were like, that's not right, and

997
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: then it ended up like really elevating him, right.

998
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 2: I mean, this is the same exact thing they're doing.

999
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,240
Speaker 3: It is really interesting. A few months ago, they RNC

1000
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 3: started putting out some new talking points, basically saying, like

1001
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 3: the age stuff matters, but it's not going to be determinative.

1002
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 3: We need to really go after Biden read about substance,

1003
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 3: on his issues, on him doing a bad job, And

1004
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 3: I do think people do sometimes get surprised. You know,

1005
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 3: they might see a debate and follow twenty twenty four

1006
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 3: and realize that Joe Biden is more with it than

1007
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 3: some of the quick clips on Fox News Primetime would suggest. Yeah.

1008
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 3: That being said, I think where Biden is struggles in

1009
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 3: a contrast with Trump, even though he does exercise more,

1010
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 3: and although they both eat pretty pretty terribly. I gotta

1011
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 3: tell you, I know it's true.

1012
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: Well, the ice cream, I mean I was reading about it.

1013
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: I was like, well, ice cream's okay, but the chicken nuggets.

1014
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 3: And his aides joke that Biden's food palette is kindergarten, right,

1015
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 3: It's like beige, like every like it's it's lots of carbs,

1016
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 3: French fries, pasta. Like They'll keep trying to get him

1017
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 3: eat more fish, but then he'll sort of double down

1018
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 3: on dessert, and so it's like, don't really make him.

1019
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I find thislius.

1020
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, continue, Oh but I would saying, you know,

1021
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 3: the thing that Biden has always struggled with is just

1022
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 3: and this is part of where politics is in this

1023
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 3: reality television age we live in, is that, you know,

1024
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 3: the performance aspect of it, Trump just seems younger, and

1025
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 3: you know, Joe Biden's team continue. I mean, I know

1026
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 3: there's there's Democrats that have communicated to the president's team like,

1027
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 3: stop putting the guy just behind the lecture and the

1028
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 3: letting him talk. It's just not his best format, is

1029
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 3: what they say. You know, it just makes him look

1030
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: even older. But they're still trying to figure it out.

1031
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:37,439
Speaker 3: I don't. My suspicion, although I don't know, you don't

1032
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 3: have firm reporting, but my suspicion was it wasn't a

1033
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 3: coincidence that we saw pictures of him at the beach

1034
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 3: over the weekend.

1035
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 2: They want those beach pictures.

1036
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, but I don't. I think they are

1037
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 3: trying to figure out any way to change those age numbers.

1038
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 3: They're debating a lot of different things. I don't know

1039
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 3: for sure, the beach ones I didn't make some calls

1040
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 3: on it afterward. That was striking to me that those emerged.

1041
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 2: Alex, we're going to want you to come back.

1042
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, Oh well, that's I love to come back.

1043
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: The bad news is we're going to need you to

1044
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 1: come back because I want to know more about what's

1045
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: going on. And also, as the Republican debates start going

1046
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: and the first starts flying over under, I'm going to

1047
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: ask you to prea it in the future what you're

1048
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: never supposed to do over under.

1049
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 2: The Trump shows up at the debates.

1050
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 3: I think he's not going to show to the first one,

1051
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 3: and then he will shut the second.

1052
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 2: Very cinematic. We will see if you're right. Thanks so much, Alex.

1053
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 3: Thank you no more perfectly. Jesse Canon, Milly jog Fast.

1054
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 6: So the insurers have gone woke, according to Rohn dea Santis,

1055
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 6: and they're leaving Florida because of climate change, and they

1056
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 6: don't want to ensure homes in Florida because it's gonna

1057
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 6: screw them financially. What do you see in here?

1058
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: Turns out the only bigger scam than Las Vegas insurance.

1059
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: They don't like to lose their money, and it turns

1060
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: out that ensuring houses that will be underwater is a

1061
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: bad business model, and so they are leaving the state

1062
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 1: of Florida. You know, Florida where woke goes to die.

1063
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: It ain't wokeness, buddy, it's capitalism. Do not confuse capitalism

1064
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 1: with wokeness. And for that that is our moment of

1065
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,879
Speaker 1: fuck Ray. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1066
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the

1067
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: best minds in politics.

1068
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: Makes sense of all this chaos.

1069
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

1070
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks

1071
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 1: for listening.