1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: M I hunted men for a living. That's how I 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: looked at it. I went from hunting animals to me 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: and when I captured that was my trophy on the wall. 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: On this episode of the Burglaries podcast, we're going deep 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: undercover in the rough country of southeast Ohio to learn 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: about the secret lives of wildlife poachers and the life 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: of an undercover wildlife agent by the name of RT. Stewart. 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: He worked eighteen years for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources. 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: He was one of the lead agents on the largest 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: turkey poaching sting in US history. He's a decorated law 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: enforcement officer known for going deep undercover, even years at 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: a time, and willing to do whatever it took to 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: bust the outlaws. And in his career he never had 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: a single one of his targets suspects not be convicted 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: of crimes. If the bad guys had known him, they'd 16 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: have feared him, but they didn't because he was a ghost. 17 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: We'll hear from author Chip Gross, who wrote a book 18 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: about RT, and will interview Dr Matthew Sharp's of California 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: State University about the psychology of undercover agents and the 20 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: personal cost that comes with living a lie. In the 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: first episode of this series, yes, I said, series, will 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: meet RT and he'll show us the life of an 23 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: undercover agent. And on part two we'll talk about his 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: biggest job. You're gonna laugh, be intrigued, and you're gonna cry. 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: I really doubt you're gonna want to miss this one. 26 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: Your whole life is lie. Who you talk about stress, 27 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: but when you're young and dumb, you don't even think 28 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: about it. But it's stress. Was it worth it? You're 29 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: too good? Ye. My name is Clay Nukelem and this 30 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten 31 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where 32 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives 33 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: close to the land. Presented by f HF Gear American Maid, 34 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: purpose built hunting and fishing gear as designed to be 35 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: as rugged as the places we explore. Bells Man leads 36 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: a life of danger. The foundation of a functional society 37 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: is that the law of the l and is obeyed 38 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: by the vast majority of the population, and much of 39 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: this is enforced by uniformed law enforcement that patrols our highways, 40 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: cities and towns. Enforcing the law secret ass but there 41 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: is an underground layer of crime that is very difficult 42 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: for a person in uniform to stop. And that's where 43 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: another layer of guile or cunning action of the good 44 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: guys kicks in. At some point in history, the undercover 45 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: agent arose your courage, Mrs so we a chrene. I 46 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: admire your luck, Mr Bond, James Bond, Mr Bond, I 47 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: suppose you wouldn't care to raise the limit. I have 48 00:03:54,320 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: no objection. The idea the world famous secret agent like 49 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: James Bond is kind of ludicrous, typical of Hollywood. They 50 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: glamorized stuff that often isn't glamorous at all. Dr Matthew 51 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: Sharp's is a professor of psychology at California State University 52 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,559 Speaker 1: and Fresno. He studied undercover agents for a long time. 53 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: Here's what he has to say about old James Bond. 54 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: Where James Bond and there is Sean Connery back in 55 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: the day, but the one I like anyway, and there 56 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: he is wearing his nice tuxedo in a casino, right, 57 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: and he's like before, it's just taller everybody else. And 58 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: get two beautiful women on each army, and so everybody 59 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: else wearing jeans on a T shirt. He's in his 60 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: tuxedo right, and he's a world famous secret agent. There's 61 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: an old song, the second best secret agent in the 62 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: whole wide world, but he's a world famous secretgyent. Well, 63 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: I wants to ask an actual uh spy and undercover, 64 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: a man who spends his life deliberately being as nondescript 65 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: as possible. What would happen to James Bond in real life? 66 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 1: He didn't even has it. He'd be done in five minutes. 67 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: You can't be a world fat of secret agent. There's 68 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: no future, but you'd like that recognition, and um, you know, 69 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: the clients and services outside police work must be very, 70 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: very difficult because you may get medals where you don't 71 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: even get to take from home and there you are 72 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: with you know, your the veterans of this and that service. 73 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: You can't talk about it, and those stresses have not 74 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: really been addressed, but they're a big problem. There's no 75 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: future in being a world famous secret agent. That's funny. 76 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: Understanding the psychology of undercover agents is a brand new field. 77 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: I guess studying it is an indicator that we're in 78 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: advanced society. Our needs are met to the point we 79 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: now have resources to study the people hired as law 80 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: enforcement that we've commissioned to act as criminals and break 81 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: the law in order to catch the real criminals. When 82 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: you start thinking about it, it's a complex space, and 83 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that means are society is advanced. 84 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: Maybe it's regressing. Undercover work is a necessary evil, one 85 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: that we're all thankful for, whether we realize it or not, 86 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: and it lies in an odd philosophical and ethical spot. 87 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: It takes a special breed of person to do this, 88 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: and we're learning it often comes at a high cost 89 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: to the individual, but a net gain for society. It's 90 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: rare that we get a glimpse into the real life 91 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: of an undercover agent. In two thousand twelve, the Kent 92 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: State University Press published a book written by Chip Gross 93 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: titled Poachers Were My Prey. The book is the real 94 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: life story of this undercover agent, RT Stewart. It's a 95 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: tell all book, and it's publishing came with its own 96 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: share of controversy. But in it, RT tells about his 97 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: top ten covert operations, busting the ruffican outlaws of Southeast 98 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: Ohio and West Virginia. Here's off Chip Growth introducing us 99 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: to our t. It just seems like some people in 100 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: this world are perfectly matched for the jobs they do, 101 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: and R. T. Store is definitely one of those people. 102 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: But first of all, he's a very skilled woodsman. He 103 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: knows how to hunt, he knows how to fish, he 104 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: knows how to trap. When the bad guys see that, 105 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: that is a positive in their mind, you know, Okay, 106 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: this guy is for real. And uh, he's very congenial. 107 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: He could get the bad guys to like him and 108 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: trust him very very quickly, sometimes with just within a 109 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: few days. He just got that that knack about him. 110 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: He's a very likable person. Like, what what does it 111 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: take for a person to to have that, to be 112 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: able to do that? I'm not sure because I don't 113 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: have it, and I don't think a lot of people do. 114 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: But RT does. He's a real chameleon in that he 115 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: can adjust to a lot of different situations. As he 116 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: talked about, he can relate to the kind of scumbag poachers, 117 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: or he can go to Lake Erie and deal with 118 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: marina owners up there and charter boat captains that are 119 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: running boats worth tens of thousands of dollars and still 120 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: slide in and become a member of that group. So 121 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of It is kind of 122 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: a natural ability, a natural skill, and he's very very 123 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: good at what he does. He can think on his 124 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: feet very very quickly. He mentions in the book that 125 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: in every undercover operation that he was on, the poachers 126 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: at one point or another accused him or asked him 127 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: if he wasn't undercover wildlife officer, you know, because they've 128 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: always got that in the back of their mind. We 129 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: know we're doing bad stuff. Who's this new guy and 130 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: they're looking at him? Is this the Is this our 131 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: worst nightmare that we don't know about yet? And he 132 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: was able to talk his way out of it every 133 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: single time. And when I asked him how he did it, 134 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: he said, I don't know. He said, it's something I 135 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: prepared for, but I knew I was going to get 136 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: the question, but every time it came up, I had 137 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: to work around it in a different way. RTI. Stewart 138 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: is now in his sixties and he's been retired from 139 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: Ohio dn R for over a decade. I don't know 140 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: how to say this without just saying it. When you 141 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: meet him. He doesn't have the vibe of a career 142 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: law enforcement man. He's got a penful of blue tick 143 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: coon hounds, and he's got duck boats stuffed under every 144 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: shed on his place. And his Southeast Ohio draw is 145 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: surprisingly thick. But that's exactly why he was one of 146 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: the best undercover agents in Ohio dn our history. Today 147 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: his hair is trimmed tight, and it looks like he 148 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: hasn't shaved in a couple of days. But at one 149 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: time he looked like a guitarist from zz Top. Here's 150 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: our t I guess as a kid, I used to 151 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: watch television, and you know, and I always liked the 152 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: I always liked the idea of a ranger or a 153 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: game word or something that nature. And he grew up 154 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: hunting and fishing. Absolutely grew up hunting and fishing. My 155 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: dad was a major. He went in a gun shop 156 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: for forty years. And so how did you become a 157 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: game where in that? What age were you and what 158 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: was your career progression? You know, living in a small 159 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: town and got married and I ended up working in 160 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: a coal mine. You have to live, You've got kids, 161 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta make a living. You know that 162 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: wasn't my that wasn't my dream obviously, but you gotta 163 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: make a living, and that's how around here, being uneducated. 164 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: And so I went to work in a coal mine 165 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: and then I left there and went to steel mills, 166 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: and uh got laid off in nineteen eighty one. And 167 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: I was twenty nine or thirty. And when I got 168 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: laid off, that's when that first time they ever laid 169 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: off my life. I remember telling them people that I 170 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: was going to college and become a game warden. I 171 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: was thirty years old when I went to gold. You've 172 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: just learned what are the keys to Artie's success in 173 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: living a life of an undercover agent. He worked in 174 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: a whole mine, in the steel mill for over a decade. 175 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: He'd lived a real life of a rural Appalachian man, 176 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: which you can't fake. RTIs a coon hunter, a cat fisherman, 177 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: a skilled deer in turkey hunter, and a trapper. And 178 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: by the way, Southeast Ohio is considered Appalachia, and as 179 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: a surprise to me, it's even considered the South by 180 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: those that lived there. And RT has never ice fished 181 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: a day in his life, so it passes Steve Ronelli's 182 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: test R. T was hired by the Ohio dn R 183 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: when he was thirty five years old as a uniformed 184 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: game warden. They assigned me to Union County, which was 185 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: I didn't even know where Union County was because I 186 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: had never mean much out of this area that was 187 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: in the that was west of Columbus, which to me, 188 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: that was the city. And the worst thing that could 189 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: have done was said, a give a hill billy with 190 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: a badge and sent him to the city. Well, so 191 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: I went up there and they put me in uniform, 192 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: and I was up there for about a year and 193 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: a half. I was in uniform, and then I was 194 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: always intrigued because I had worked with friends of mine 195 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: that was undercover agents with liquor Control, and I was 196 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: always always intrigued about that. You know. RT told his 197 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: supervisors that if there was ever any need for undercover 198 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: work that he'd be interested in the job. He had 199 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: no training, but he had reason to think that he'd 200 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: be good at It turns out he was right. Keep 201 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: in mind, I was thirty five when I went to 202 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: work as a wildlife officer. I grew up in hunting 203 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: and fishing all my childhood of life and all my 204 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: early adult life, if it flew, swam, or walked, I 205 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: had been involved in it. So with my background in that, 206 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: and I wasn't always an angel. A matter of fact, 207 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: they tried to catch me for five years and couldn't. 208 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: That's why they heard me. Is that right? So I 209 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: just felt I had the knowledge in the background that 210 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: I knew how outlaws worked. I just felt that I 211 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: could do a better job of catching people. Not saying 212 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: that I didn't have a good career while I was 213 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: in uniform. I did. I just felt I could catch 214 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: people that was more detrimental to the population of the 215 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: wildlife than I could getting you. I was already rough 216 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: round the edges, and you're right, you were dangerous. As 217 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: an undercover up, I was feared. Uh, did you have 218 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: the kind of confidence that when you set out on 219 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: a target target acquisition? It was like, man, that's a 220 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: good question. Whatever it takes to get this guy. Yeah. 221 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: I had the confidence. I felt I had the ability. 222 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: I felt I had to know how, and I was 223 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: a pretty good actor. I hunted men for a living. 224 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: That's how I looked at him. I went from hunting 225 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: animals to me when I captured that was my trophy 226 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: on the wall. RT has the right to be confident 227 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: and call it like it is, because later he'll reveal 228 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: some of his mistakes. It takes a special person to 229 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: be successful undercover, and as we're beginning to see, Artis 230 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: background set him up to be as good an undercover 231 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: agent as was ever made. And as a matter of fact, 232 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: he never worked a case where he didn't get his 233 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: target suspect. That's incredible. If you're an outlaw, you wouldn't 234 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: want Artie Stewart after you, but like a black panther 235 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: creeping up on you in the night, you wouldn't even 236 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: know it was r T. I think with my background, 237 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: I could talk the language that poachers and outlaws could understand. 238 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: I knew what they were thinking. I guess I knew 239 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: what they were after I could talk that, and they 240 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: knew that I wasn't fake when I talked about it, 241 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: and I was. I was always good at reading Pepe. 242 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: I think I was always good at reading people. I 243 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: always felt that I had a good humorous side to me. 244 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: People make people like me. And I also discovered early 245 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: on that if you put this outlaw, put them on 246 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: a pedestal that's what they like. They didn't want competition, 247 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: but they want to be put on a pedestal. They 248 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: wanted esteem from you or anyone. Would that be like 249 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: a number one descriptor of what you see that's congruent throughout. 250 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: They all just want to be They want to be 251 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: put up on that pedestal. They want to be the 252 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: number one person in their peers eyes. They want to 253 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: be the great white hunter. The motivations of outlaws are 254 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: really quite primitive to human nature. They're looking for social 255 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: esteem and for whatever reason, they can't get that inside 256 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: the boundaries of the law, so they've got to cheat 257 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: to get it. I want to underst stand what goes 258 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: into an undercover operation. In Artis book, I was amazed 259 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: at the links he would go to to infiltrate these 260 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: poaching rings. On these undercover operations, you would embed yourself 261 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: completely inside of these communities, correct. I've heard of operations 262 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: where like an undercover guy would like live at his 263 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: normal house with his wife and like drive two hours 264 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: and show up at a gas station that's playing game boards, 265 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: that's playing undercover and playing under Okay, well so tell 266 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: me that's playing. So tell me what you had to do. 267 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: I took I took it very serious. I was I was. 268 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: I took it extremely serious. I would go there, and 269 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: I felt the only way to catch these people, you've 270 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: got to You've got to be part of them. You 271 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: gotta be with them. So I'd go there and find 272 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: a plate and find a place to rent. You want 273 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: to have a target suspect, have a target suspect. We'd 274 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: already have a target list, I say, you know, complaints 275 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: on individuals, and they'll from whatever county the agents put 276 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: together and give us a packet. You know, I need 277 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: to look at these guys and see what's going on. 278 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: So that's what we'd do. So we would we would 279 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: go in and rent a place in the surrounding area. 280 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: We didn't want it too close, but we didn't want 281 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: it too far away either, you know, I didn't. We 282 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: didn't want it close enough. We're you know, just the 283 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: walk down the street and walking in in any time, 284 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: you know, But but we wanted a close enough to 285 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: make it a little effort, you know, for him to 286 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: come visit. I remember you saying that you didn't want 287 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: to like live across the street from a poacher because 288 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: he might show up at a time when you're not 289 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: needing him on the phone with your boss or so, 290 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: but but far enough away that he'd have to go 291 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: out of his way to come see you. But you're 292 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: still in the community. Correct, That's exactly right. Why didn't 293 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: nobody tell me that, you know, we didn't have a 294 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: didn't have a book to go by. I think it 295 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: was just instinct instinct. So that's what we do is 296 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: rent a place like that. And my shortest project, I 297 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: think it was like fourteen months or twelve months, and 298 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: then so you would you would live there for like years? Yeah? 299 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: A long was one was four years? Four years? Would 300 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: you go back home to try to come home? But 301 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: it got the point where I did not want to 302 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: come home. I just it was who wants to come 303 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: back to reality? M hmm. I got the point I 304 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: didn't want to come home. This is where things get 305 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: interesting and take an unexpected turn. What I appreciate most 306 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: about our T is how open he is about his struggles. 307 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: It's pretty rare to find a person willing to be 308 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: as honest about himself as our T. At the time, 309 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: there wasn't much known about the psychological effects of living 310 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: a double life, but it turns out r tis experience 311 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: of having difficulty going back and forth between reality and 312 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: his undercover work is a common issue. Dr Matthew Sharps 313 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: wrote a book called Processing under Pressure, Stress, memory, and 314 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: decision Making in law enforcement. He's worked a lot with 315 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: undercover agents, but it's an under researched area. I want 316 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: to see what he says about this. We now know 317 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: that brain cells. If you if a brain cell is active, 318 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: what other brain cells are talking to these synaps The 319 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: connections tend to be strengthened. So if you're in the 320 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: field for a long time, pretending to be a mafiosi, 321 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: pretending to be a drug dealer, what have you, you're 322 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: gonna stows. Those habit pattings start to become a relatively 323 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: automatic you. Okay, So when you go back home to 324 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: your to your your spouse, your family. Lots of times 325 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: undercover people will emerge back into the instead of word, 326 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: emerge back into their undercover persona, and they don't know 327 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: they're doing it. This is usually problematic. An awful lot 328 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: of our life is dealing in terms of automated behaviors. 329 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: It's possible to be so d undercover for so long 330 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: that the functional mechanisms of our identity begin to become scrambled, 331 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: and when you think about it, it's really an odd 332 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: place for a human to occupy. Normal human existence is 333 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: based on us functioning honestly in a state of reality. 334 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: But people who work deep undercover have to live a 335 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: life which, as it turns out, exerts an extreme amount 336 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: of chronic stress on the body that we weren't designed for. 337 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: If you think about our ancient ancestors, they were hunters, 338 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: and hunting presents tremendous acute stress, especially if you're doing 339 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: it with a spear, or a spear has a magazine 340 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: capacity of one. Okay, so that's pretty stressful, But it's 341 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: two or three days of a persistence hunt, or the 342 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: five minutes of jumping up and taking out a deer, 343 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: or back in the day in Irish elk okay, it's cute. Now, 344 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: we had to be able to deal with acute stress 345 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: because if you couldn't, you couldn't survive long enough to reproduce. 346 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: But on ex stress, the symptoms of chronics chronic stress 347 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: don't kill you until you're in middle age or for 348 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: what them was old age, and so we don't seem 349 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: to have a good way of dealing with chronic stress. 350 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: It gets us. One thing is that when you're under stress, 351 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: you're in the human fight or flight response, and that 352 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: ups your blood pressure, it ups your heart rate, it 353 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: ups your breathing rate. All this stuff is wearing on 354 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: the body. It also produces, aside from those three major 355 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: chemicals involved, aldosterone, which is to do assault balance, Cortisol 356 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: that gives you more energy, but it also has an 357 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: erosive quality on some structures. There's research that indicates cord 358 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: assault and have some corrosive agency on a structure in 359 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: the brain called the hippocampus where you actually process your memories. 360 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: But then you have adrenaline, and that's what it puts 361 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: your body into this higher state of being. It's just very, 362 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: very expensive, and because you're using all of these you're 363 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: doing all of this high stress stuff, you tend to 364 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: shut down the systems you don't need. Humans weren't designed 365 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: for chronic or constant stress, were equipped for short term stress. 366 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: And it all goes back to our hunter gatherer roots. 367 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: It's easy to listen to our t stories and feel 368 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: the excitement and James Bond style intrigue of undercover work. 369 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: But all things come with the cost, and it certainly 370 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: did for Ourt. Being an undercover agent is a dirty 371 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: job that enables the rest of us to live normal lives, unaware, 372 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: even oblivious to what's helping keep things stable. I want 373 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: to get back to the nitty gritty mechanics of undercover work, 374 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: and what's a bit mind twisting is that the key 375 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: to living a lie is telling the truth. The best 376 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: undercover agent and I think any of them will tell 377 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: you this, that's been deep undercover or you got to 378 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: stick to the truth. You tell lies, but you don't 379 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,959 Speaker 1: tell them in a sense. You may you may have 380 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: done something. You may just order the time frame, or 381 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: you just order the name, but you stick to the 382 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: truth of reality what you have experienced, and you never 383 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: go wrong because you don't have to remember. And so 384 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: as an big overview, so you've embedded yourself. You have 385 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: your personal story, and then you're trying to infiltrate these 386 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: groups of people or a specific person, and you need 387 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: them to take you hunting, and you need them to 388 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: talk about what they've done. Correct, But did you find 389 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: that these guys wanted to talk once you got the credibility. 390 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: Usually there was a group. When I say a group, 391 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: it might be you know, one, two guys to a 392 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: half a dozen guys that was taking it. Once you 393 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: got the credibility of some of those lower members of 394 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: that gring that helped get you to the top band. Really, 395 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: so you would usually infiltrate by meeting some of the 396 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: lower tier guys really and they would bring you to 397 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: the leader. Creig. It took me, uh, on one particular job, 398 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: you know, I was working, it took me eleven months 399 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: to meet the number one guy. But were they protective 400 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: of him? Was he elusive? He just didn't expose himself 401 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: to many people, know, just to or three people. Isn't 402 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: that common to mankind of what what you're describing there, 403 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: to me is like the social hierarchy of just the 404 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: way that we operate. Correct. There's people that have their 405 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: spheres and they're kind of the leader, and they have 406 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: these young maybe younger maybe just the guys that are 407 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: lower than them on the social and then and that 408 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: guy top guys kind of guarded in some way. Well again, 409 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: there you go, the ego, the power, you know, John 410 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: there he's the top man. But we you know he 411 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: called all the shots, you know, even and that's the 412 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: way it works in legitimate social structures, that's correct, and 413 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: not just with poachers, with any of us anything, racing, racing, sports, yeah, 414 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: you know, all kind of things. Uh, it all matches 415 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: the same criteria. So you would infiltrate the groups by 416 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: being so convincing and being the real deal, and then 417 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: you would need to be hunting with go hunting with 418 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: these guys. It would take you as long as eleven 419 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: months to even meet your target guy, and then you'd 420 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: go hunting with them, you'd go drinking with them, you'd 421 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: go to their family events and all of it everything 422 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: you just mentioned, you know. Or you try to find 423 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: good intel and you find out where these guys like 424 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: to hang out or eat, and you try to embed 425 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: yourself into those locations. Sometimes you'll meet some guys lowder 426 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: you know so and so, Yeah, I know so and so, 427 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: And next thing you know, you're you're with a lower 428 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: guy that knows this guy. And then if you can 429 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: do some things or convince him that you are an outlaw, 430 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: and then you do a few things with him, then 431 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: that's you're building your credibilities of them. The web keeps 432 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: getting bigger, but yet the circle keep getting smaller. Who 433 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: It took me eleven months to meet this guy, and 434 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: after I met him, one week of hunt with him. 435 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: You're in in So they're vulnerable once you get up 436 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: to the top. Yes, because I feel that they feel 437 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 1: that you have met the credibility of everybody, and you've 438 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: been around for a year, you know, and everybody else's 439 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: vouching for you. Just like a good hunter, putting in 440 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: the time and having patience is very valuable. And RT 441 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: understood human nature. He was good with people and had 442 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 1: a natural instinct for how to gain trust. In some ways, 443 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of scary how good he was. I'm actually 444 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: beginning to wonder if any of my friends are real. 445 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: And I've said it from the beginning. I suspect Brent 446 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: Reeves is a double undercover agent sent in to bust me. 447 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: What a great cover to say I used to work undercover. 448 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: What they're after I don't know, and who they are 449 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know who they is, they are, 450 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: who they were, I don't know who sent Britt Reeves. 451 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: What I'm trying to say, I don't know. But it's 452 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: typical of the Mountain people to be suspicious of flat Landers. Anyway, 453 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: back to the nitty gritty with r T and keep 454 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: your eyeland, Brent Reeves, you had a legitimate new name, 455 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: new documentation. So what what was the name that you used? Well? 456 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: I had two of them. First one was Bob Thomas 457 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: and the second one was Bill. Was there any strategy 458 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: in those like Bob Thomas sounds like such a generic name. No, okay, 459 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: did you make that? You just made it up. I 460 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: made it up. I guess they were probably like man, 461 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: no way undercover agent would be Bob Thomas, right right, right, 462 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: right right, So you had you had, I d That's 463 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: another thing that we we did not know at the time, 464 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: but I told I got in trouble, got rifted going 465 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: to go take me to jail because I got captured 466 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: speeding in a schools zome one time was going thirty 467 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: mile an hour in a twenty mile zone and I 468 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: didn't have the proper identification. So you're working undercover. I 469 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: had a driver's relations but that's all I had, you know, 470 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: which was easy to acquire, was a driver's license. And 471 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: you couldn't tell this officer who you were. Absolutely not. 472 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: You just took it. Absolutely yeah. It come back not 473 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: in foul, would they run to the licensed flates? Not 474 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: in foul? I mean, could mean a lot of things. 475 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: So you went to jail for that? Yeah? Yeah, well 476 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: that and a lot of other things. Yeah, we'll just 477 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: stick with that, okay. Uh. And they thought I was 478 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: caring drug. You know, I was pretty rough looking, was 479 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: in a town that I shouldn't have been in, had 480 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: a trail truck and said farm use route on it. 481 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: And I was in a high dollar out you know, 482 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: hide dollar town and looked like scum. But you were 483 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: working under coach. I was working under cover. It was 484 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: legitimate what you were doing. And so this guy was like, man, 485 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: I just I just got me a dandy. Well it 486 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: was it was a female, and I never had good 487 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: luck with female when they rest pulled me over, so 488 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: I didn't have good luck with her either. Be anyhow, 489 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: you got out of jail. I got out, but it 490 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: took me. Did you call? I keep I keep going 491 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: down these rabbit trailers, but they're just too interesting. Who 492 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: do you call when you're an undercover agent and you've 493 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: been arrested? No one, no one? You just kind of 494 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: write it out, which, you know, how far do you go? 495 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: You know? How far do you write it out? You know? 496 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: Finally I got to a point to where and I 497 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: was not in the town that I was working. So 498 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: I finally asked for a supervisor, and so he come 499 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: back and I was locked up the back of the truck. Well, 500 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: they thought I stole the truck. But when they run 501 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: finally done a search on it, I can hear it 502 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: come back over the radio. Belongs to a high division 503 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: the natural Resources. I'm going, holy, what if I was 504 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: sitting here with a bad guy in the back of 505 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: car with me? So it was a good experience that 506 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: happened with no bad guy with me. I told him 507 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: make a phone call, and he made a phone call 508 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: and finally got ahold of him. And I found this 509 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: out later. He said, we got a guy here claims 510 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: to be one of yours. Pretty roughly, they didn't give 511 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: me dad. Yep, he's mine, that's our, that's mine, he's mine. 512 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: He's one of our good ones. Yeah, yeah, I'll claim 513 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: they let you out of jail. So through that you 514 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: learned that you needed to really deep cover everywhere everywhere. 515 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: So what they did from men on when they purchased 516 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: a new vehicle, when that truck come from the factory. 517 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: It went to our undercover name. R T was pioneering 518 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: undercover work in Ohio. This just hadn't been done to 519 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: this scale here, and they were learning a lot the 520 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: hard way. I keep going back to the isolation of 521 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: this type of work. Who do you call when you 522 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: get arrested while working undercover? The answer is no one. 523 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: I think we take for granted the social networks we 524 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: have and probably wouldn't realize how important they are until 525 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: they're gone. Are our social networks give stability to our lives, 526 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: and their absence and deep undercover work adds to the 527 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: chronic stress. And hey, speaking of vehicles, I want to 528 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: ask Bob Thomas about his specialty hunting rig. You had 529 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: on several operations. You had a custom van that was 530 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: decked out with video recording equipment. And this is back 531 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: in the nineties, so it wasn't like we got cameras 532 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: on phones today. No, we didn't even have cell phones. Yeah. Well, 533 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: on my very first operation, we were out spotlighting and 534 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: shooting deer and having a great time, and all of 535 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: a sudden, red light starts flashing, you know, and off 536 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: we go the car case. You know, I'm not driving 537 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: without the gun, out to win and the gun goes off. 538 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: This is when you're undercover with a poacher, under game 539 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: warden comes after you. Well, we didn't know. We never knew. 540 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: We never did find out who it was because they 541 00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: never caught us. I don't know who it was. A 542 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: game Morgan, Sheriff's department, or a local farmer, don't know 543 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: who it was. We took off and this guy was 544 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: going to Hunter a mile an hour on these roads. 545 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think of Hunter mount out but 546 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: very you know, accession dangerous and that scared me. That's scared. 547 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: You're out of control. I was out of control. So 548 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: therefore I decided I need to drive. I can control 549 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: the situation. Yeah, And how can you control the situation 550 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: if you just got a pickup truck with a cab, 551 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: you didn't have all you have with a single cab. 552 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: So if you got a party at a bar and 553 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: you've got four or five guys participating in that bar, 554 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, get together whatever it is, 555 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: and all you got to pick up truck and hold 556 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: free people that it breaks the party up. So I 557 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: come up with the idea of a van. I thought 558 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: a van you know, everybody can participate and I'm driving. Man. 559 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: That was just that instinct of just knowing what you 560 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: needed to do. I think it was yeah, absolutely, you know, 561 00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: and how do you keep the party going? But if 562 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: you can take everybody, I'm driving, I got a van, 563 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: everybody can go. Let's go the way we went. Did 564 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: your van have a name? Did you call it anything? 565 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: Poch coach, post coach, the boat now did you say 566 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: that you use let's take the poach coach? Poach coach? Man? 567 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: I met you were there, number one guy. Oh, they 568 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: love me. Everybody knows that to fit in, you gotta 569 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: have the right ride. Think about the boldness of naming 570 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: your undercover rig the poach coach. That's almost as bold 571 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: as Brent Reeves cover, being that he used to work undercover. 572 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: In Arties book, he tells the details of countless poaching 573 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: incidents where he was involved in the killing of illegal 574 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: deer in Turkey. The deer were primarily killed while spotlighting 575 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: or jack lighting. If you live in the land of 576 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: the ice fishermen, surprisingly you never had two poach a deer. 577 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: To keep his cover. He was the driver, so it 578 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: was hard for him to be the shooter too. However, 579 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: he would randomly show up with a fresh killed set 580 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,760 Speaker 1: of buck Antler's turkey fans and beards that were supplied 581 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: to him by the Ohio dn R that he'd show 582 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: off to the poachers with a made up story of 583 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: how he'd snagged one the night before when they couldn't go. 584 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: On a separate note, Brent Reeves is constantly showing me 585 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: coon hides, claiming his tree and walker treat him. But 586 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: I find that odd because we all know that tree 587 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: and walkers don't tree real Coon's with the van. They 588 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: agreed that I wouldn't drink, but we're poaching. I don't drink, 589 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 1: and I tell him, you know, and the boys and 590 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: I don't mind getting caught for shooting a deer, but 591 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: I said, I don't need no d w I I said, so, 592 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: if we're gonna poach, I'm not gonna drink while we're driving. 593 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,919 Speaker 1: You were the You were their favorite guy man, You're 594 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: the designated dry Absolutely put them all up there on 595 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: that pedestal. It was important for arties and the public 596 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: safety that there weren't drunk drivers cruising around in the 597 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: name of covert government operations, and not surprisingly most of 598 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: the poaching rings involved alcohol and many even illegal drugs, 599 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: and that poacher pedestal was also very important too, almost 600 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: as important as video surveillance equipment. Then we decided, well 601 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: we need a van, which we got a van, and 602 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: then we need to figure out a way to record 603 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: this stuff, you know. So there was an agency the 604 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: they called it the Bad House, and it was it 605 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: was very it was very uh secluded. All they did was, 606 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: I think they worked under the Attorney high Attorney general 607 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: levels and all they did was installed video equipment in vehicles, 608 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: vehicles whatever. This is a government agency. Yeah, they hooked 609 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: us up with the great big old VCR boxes, you know, 610 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: the VCR tape Hi to one of those things. You 611 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: don't because he had we build a spatial box and 612 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: put it in the back there. But you had to 613 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: get out and go around and plug it all in, 614 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: run off of d C, you know, and had to 615 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: plug it all in and only ran about two hours, 616 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: so you had to be you know, know what you're doing. 617 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: And the sometimes you drop the poacher to off pick 618 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: up a deer, and what you do. You go down 619 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: the road and jump out real quickly, change tapes, you know, 620 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: and then we had an infrared light and over the 621 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: over the sunvisor. How do you hide a way that 622 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: we just didn't hit it by being out in the open. 623 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: It was all infrareded lights, but it was designed like 624 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: a Confederate flag. Yeah, hung right over top the sunfighters, 625 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: so pitch black. The guy is shooting down the front seat. 626 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: You know he's lit up, so the cameras picked him 627 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: up sea And I'd have guys mentioned to me about that, 628 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: you know what, what is it? And I'd tell them 629 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: story about my handicapped son that passed away. He was 630 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: in the electronics and he made that for me. It 631 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: don't work, but just senttle middle when I keep it 632 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: up there, I had a pulled down. Let's assume we 633 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: fix it. I don't put her back up. Sometimes when 634 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: you hear about all these governments surveillance operations, it makes 635 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: you scratch your head. Americans have always valued independence from 636 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 1: government and our rights to privacy. All I can say 637 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: is when you break the law, you lose the right 638 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 1: to that privacy in some situations, and there are very 639 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: strict laws about what type of evidence is permissible in 640 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: court and how it's obtained. You use that van on 641 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: multiple operations. Yeah, yeah, that that this will just an 642 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: old she'll be van at the time. Yeah, what your 643 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: model and makeing, Oh this is probably a having the 644 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: sixty eight or sixty nine old van. So it was old. 645 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was old back then. And then uh 646 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: that was the first one was but then the then 647 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 1: we graduated a little bit. Probably got about a seventies 648 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: model mid step maybe in the eight eighty five model. 649 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: But then when they've we've done a full time undercar operation. 650 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: Kevin asked me, who was my supervisor recent time to 651 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: get a vehicle? What what? What would your favorite vehicle? 652 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: B I said, a four wheel drive van. Next thing 653 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: I knew, I had a brand new, jacked up full 654 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: wheel drive van. Yeah. And then we had a little 655 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: modern day equipment, you know where I didn't have to 656 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: get out and turn the switches along and I could 657 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: do them by a little switch here by. And I 658 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: had videos in the front. I had videos in the 659 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: front seat, videos coming out the side, videos going out 660 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: the back. Now I'd control to all of that. But 661 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: what what was your story for why a guy like 662 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: you would have a van like that? Well, there you 663 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: go again. You have to have a good cover. You know, 664 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: like a brand new van specially well I worked in 665 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: a coal mine and I had been covered up injured, 666 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: which I had been, and I was on conversation and 667 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: made it having gotten a major, big settlement, big settlement. 668 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: So now is that true? Absolutely? Man, I don't even 669 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: have it. Yeah, I'm confused with reality and the But 670 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: here's what we did. We had, uh, my boss, he 671 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: knew of an agency that was a friend of his 672 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: that was an actual compensation lawyer. So he approached him 673 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: and he would draw up he had a false foul 674 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: on me, and he would send me letters into mail 675 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: of how much you know my claim and everything, you 676 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: know what was, what it was, and how much money 677 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: I was getting and think of that nature. I'd leave 678 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: them paperwork laying around in my house or on the 679 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: day or wherever. And we found by reviewing videotape later 680 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: that when I was not present with these guys, they 681 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: would read it. Wow yeah yeah yeah. If you got 682 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: somebody in the cabin, ar truck or a van and 683 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: you go in the gas station and there's some personal 684 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: letter there, they pick it up and it validates you 685 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 1: without you absolutely deep cover mane. So that's how I 686 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: proved that I had a lot of money to be 687 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: able to afford it, and that they accepted it deep cover. 688 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,799 Speaker 1: Everything had to have a story and to clarify RT 689 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: was covered up in a coal mine. In real life, 690 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: coal spilled all over him and he was injured. But 691 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: the lie was that he didn't actually get a big settlement, 692 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: so he was covered up, but he didn't get a 693 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: settlement in his real life and his undercover life he 694 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: was covered up and got a settlement and got money. 695 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: What about checking in with your supervisors and stuff. I mean, 696 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: would you go months without talking to him? Well, no, 697 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 1: he'd get kind of upset. Okay, my boss, his real 698 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: name is Dan Schneider, work in a Turkey case and 699 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: I hadn't checked in with him. I had a phone 700 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: at the house and had a had a recorder on. 701 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: And the deal was that you never calling. If you 702 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: call and leave a message, you never have say anything 703 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: about anything. It may take code or something. For example, 704 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,399 Speaker 1: we had a Spatial bank account and they put money 705 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: in my bank and Kevin he'd call up and said, hey, 706 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you. I'll give you nine hundred and 707 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: sixteen dollars and not though in thirty two cents for 708 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: that dog. That's how I knew how much money he 709 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: was putting in my bank. So your supervisor would call 710 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: about buying a dog and leave you a message. So 711 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: if somebody's if I'm in the restroom or outside and 712 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: them guys are in the house and he calls and 713 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: leaves a message, you know, they never have caught onto it. Yeah. Now, 714 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: I hadn't talked to hadn't talked to him the day 715 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: any quite a while, and he was getting a little concerned. 716 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: I come home from hunting one day. We've been turkey hunting. 717 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: I played the message and he goes it, calling in 718 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: checking on You see a man eight talked to you wild, 719 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: just hadn't talked to you know. I thought maybe you 720 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: might give me calls. So we talked about hunting in 721 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: the future here or something like that. And he said, oh, 722 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: by the way, this is Boss Gobbler. This is the boss. 723 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: He was letting me know. He would let me know 724 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: he was he's the boss. Better call a better call. 725 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: So that's what his nickname put. Even to this bay, 726 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: A lot of people associated with the Boss Gottling, the 727 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: Boss Gobbler. I like it. I want to get to 728 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: a more serious question with urt to be able to 729 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: do what you did undercover, you're living a lie. I mean, 730 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: you're you're before these people. You're living a lie. It 731 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: almost feels like you would have to be a good 732 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: actor like and I don't know if that's the would 733 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: be the best descriptor perfect description. Did it ever bother 734 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: you to be so deep in with these guys? I 735 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: mean living complete deception, Like their perception of you was 736 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: absolutely false, and you had fabricated that with them, gained 737 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 1: their real trust because they're they're in the real world 738 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: and you you control their future. These were these were 739 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: human beings that at some level there may have been 740 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: parts of their life that you respected. I don't know, 741 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm I'm putting words in your are sometimes even maybe 742 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: likable people they were. But did it bother you ever 743 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: to be that deceptive inside of people's world only one time? 744 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: One time? The rest of the people I had, they 745 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: were bad people. I wouldn't be around those individuals. Wasn't 746 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: from my job. I despised some of those individuals, but 747 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: I had to act like I loved. However, there was 748 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,439 Speaker 1: one individual and it was Operation Redbud and his name 749 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: was and Uh he was. I liked that Feller if 750 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 1: the only difference between him and me was I was 751 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: on one side of defense and he was on the other. 752 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 1: We were best friends, and I felt bad. There was 753 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: many times that I would drive home thinking I need 754 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: to war, I need to tell him. Really like you, 755 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: you thought about breaking your cover because you liked this 756 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: guy so much. That's held deep by them. And I 757 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 1: felt that I was. I was really forgetting who I 758 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 1: really was. I was forgetting that I who I was, 759 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: forgetting that I was. I was here for the for 760 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: the for the good. But yet I felt that much 761 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: attached to that Feller that I felt like I needed warning. 762 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: Our team never acted on his desire to warn the suspect. 763 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: And you guys may remember our Genuine Outlaws series. The 764 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 1: title was a play on words. The guys we talked 765 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: about were really genuine Outlaws, and they were also genuine 766 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,839 Speaker 1: people revered by many in the community. If you're new 767 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: to Bargrease and missed that series, you should go check 768 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: it out. It's one of the most intriguing stories we've 769 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 1: ever told. Our team brought up a very interesting point 770 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: about identity. He said he was forgetting who he was 771 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,400 Speaker 1: and he was finding himself and deared to the criminal, 772 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: the person he was trying to catch. However, Dr Sharp 773 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: says that that's not uncommon for undercover agents, and what 774 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: you're describing here is extremely calm. About half of undercover 775 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: people do start not necessarily to identify with the target 776 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: targets or individuals who are in the target population, but 777 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: they started to feel sympathetic to our them. They started 778 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: to become friends with him. It makes an awful lot 779 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: of sense. That's interesting. Half of undercover agents find themselves 780 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,800 Speaker 1: and deared in some way to the people they're chasing. 781 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,439 Speaker 1: It's really hard for a human to be all business 782 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: and override human nature. I want to prod a little 783 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,400 Speaker 1: harder on our t about identity, and he has something 784 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: to say. You said that there was a point in 785 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: your career when you you kind of lost your identity. 786 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: Talk to me about that. You're so deep undercover, You're 787 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: you're living, you have your own house, you have your 788 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: own account. You can't leave Bob Thomas. There was there 789 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: was I remember in the book there was a time 790 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: when you said you were like thinking of thought, and 791 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: you thought that you were Bob Thomas, and it kind 792 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: of scared you. No, I've told Gyp that was with Redbud. 793 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: It was a second project, and I was deep. I 794 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,479 Speaker 1: hadn't been home in ages, and I was deep. Uh. 795 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: And we were in uh, the state of West Virginia 796 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: on a hunting trip, and nobody had any clue where 797 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: I didn't even know. More of that, my boss had 798 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,360 Speaker 1: no clue. And I'm living in this shack here with 799 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,359 Speaker 1: these guys. I think it's four of us being in there, 800 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, about four or five days already stayed in 801 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: the same house, you know. And I really had no 802 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,360 Speaker 1: fear that they knew who I was. I mean, I 803 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,879 Speaker 1: was just that confident that they had new idea who 804 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: I was. On this one particular evening there was I 805 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: was out by myself a video on and narrating to myself. 806 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: You know. On this video, I had two d you 807 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 1: video cameras, and I had one from my own personal use, 808 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,919 Speaker 1: you know that I thought I'd used maybe down the route, 809 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: and I had one that worked with you know, but 810 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 1: on this particular one of talking about being hunting with 811 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 1: so and so and move here in West Virginia, somewhere 812 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,080 Speaker 1: on this beautiful mountain, on this sunset and signing off 813 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:27,279 Speaker 1: Bob Thomas, I went, any who I am? I am 814 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: deep cover here, man, you know, talking to myself. Man, 815 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: for some reason, that just hit me right in the face, 816 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: you know that. I guess that was the first time 817 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,280 Speaker 1: I really alone by myself, talked to myself and called 818 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,680 Speaker 1: myself that, you know, and I went, man, I'm living. 819 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: Ever of these guys, you know, they ain't got no 820 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: idea who I am, and I ain't even sure who 821 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 1: I am anymore. Even if you've never consciously thought about 822 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: your identity. From a philosophical position, it doesn't matter. As humans, 823 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 1: we spend our lives crafting identity and our deeply vested 824 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: in others perceiving us in the way that we view ourselves. 825 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: The very definition of instability is not knowing who you are. 826 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: I've always been very interested in identity. The very nature 827 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,840 Speaker 1: of this work puts a human in a very odd spot. 828 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: I had a question for Dr Sharps, So would you 829 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 1: say that undercover work is a relatively new experience for 830 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: humans or have people been doing this for generations? Like 831 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,760 Speaker 1: where they become a chameleon, becomes something different to fit 832 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 1: in with a certain group. Two get something back and 833 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,760 Speaker 1: in this case, we're trying to get justice, law and order. 834 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 1: But is this I mean, it feels like this is 835 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,879 Speaker 1: a human experiment in a sense, and people are doing 836 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,239 Speaker 1: stuff that they really weren't designed to do. And I 837 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 1: am I thinking about that right. It's a very interesting question. 838 00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 1: If you go back into the Hunter to gather a world. 839 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: Probably not. But I mean, if you look, you look 840 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: at the Old Testament, you've got spies entering the cities there. 841 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,440 Speaker 1: Now we have World War One of Sydney Riley and Matahari, 842 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: and the American Civil War riattal number of agents male 843 00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 1: and female in the Revolutionary War agents, so a lot 844 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 1: of undercover works been going for a long time. But 845 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 1: this is a very old thing and the stresses are 846 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:26,520 Speaker 1: very old too, So in bear Grease time, undercover operations 847 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: are relatively new. Humans have only been doing this for 848 00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,400 Speaker 1: a couple of thousand years. When people started grouping up 849 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,840 Speaker 1: in cities, forming governments, plant and wheat, and having political interest, 850 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,319 Speaker 1: that's when they started employing deceit to infiltrate tight knit 851 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 1: groups to gain information that couldn't be gotten without guile. 852 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 1: I think we could say with some degree of certainty 853 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,719 Speaker 1: that if a falsome man befriended you hang with me, 854 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,919 Speaker 1: you could trust him. He may have ill intent for you, 855 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,960 Speaker 1: but you'd see it coming. If he approached you and 856 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 1: wanted your meat, your land, or your woman, he'd just 857 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:09,320 Speaker 1: fight you out right. I hope you know that I'm joking, 858 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 1: But my main point is that the complexity of society 859 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: has increased exponentially since our hunter gatherer dates. However, human 860 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: nature remains the same. And I'm also not saying that 861 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,759 Speaker 1: undercover work is bad. It's just really interesting that for 862 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 1: the greater good of society, we hire men to act 863 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,439 Speaker 1: like they're bad. I wanted to get some details from 864 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,799 Speaker 1: RT about these close relationships that he built with criminals. 865 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,800 Speaker 1: I'm making a mental checklist of all the plays that 866 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 1: real friendship Brent Reeves has made at Meat. Do you 867 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 1: have friends that you now suspect your undercover agents? Do 868 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 1: they wear overalls, have suspicious beards and dark rimmed glasses. 869 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,880 Speaker 1: There was one time when you said that you felt 870 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,200 Speaker 1: like you're gonna ask to be a pall bearer at 871 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,840 Speaker 1: some guys few general like a man's That was my 872 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 1: last so like that was one of them. There was 873 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,000 Speaker 1: another one, I think where you were at Thanksgiving dinner 874 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,000 Speaker 1: with these people, and like, can you tell me some 875 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:17,759 Speaker 1: of those stories? Well, yeah, I'm over referred because he's 876 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: the only one farty uncle, sirring he got some respect 877 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: to my respect. He's I can tell some of his stuff. 878 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,399 Speaker 1: He had a very very loving wife and he had 879 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 1: two children that were very young at the time. Uh, 880 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: and he loved dearly the children. They kind of liked me, 881 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,319 Speaker 1: and I'd always bring him candy in different things, you know. 882 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,239 Speaker 1: And I found out another thing is if if you 883 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: keep the wife happy over one of the outlaws, you're in. 884 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,400 Speaker 1: If you don't keep her happy, you're out. That's a fact. 885 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,760 Speaker 1: That's a life tip, right, that's a life tip. Not 886 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: not even poacher. But if you keep the light wife 887 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,000 Speaker 1: happy and you and she likes you, you're good. She 888 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: was very nice, and she would call me up and 889 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,120 Speaker 1: ask me what what. For example, she'd call me up 890 00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,920 Speaker 1: and say, what birthday come on up? Or Christmas coming up? 891 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,000 Speaker 1: What what can I getting for Christmas? What can I 892 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 1: get for your birthday? You know? Thanks to that nature, 893 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, oh man, and the kids, they you know, 894 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: call us uncle and things like that. I mean, we 895 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,719 Speaker 1: were just that close knowing what coming down eventually, that 896 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,440 Speaker 1: was a hard, hard time to deal with that though 897 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,080 Speaker 1: you were going to Thanksgiving dinners with these people. I 898 00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,760 Speaker 1: never went to Christmas, but I invite me Thanksgiving dinner 899 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,960 Speaker 1: and things of that nature, and uh, and I'd go 900 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,880 Speaker 1: because I portrayed not have a family, you know, and 901 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 1: if I did have a family, they were far off. 902 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,680 Speaker 1: I was basically the loner, didn't have nothing, didn't have nobody, 903 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,960 Speaker 1: and they they felt sorry for me in that sense. 904 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,000 Speaker 1: Was when it comes to holidays and things, you know, 905 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,239 Speaker 1: So you'd you'd sit there on kids, play on your 906 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,480 Speaker 1: lap and sit there in the house with them talk, 907 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,359 Speaker 1: you know, just like we're doing today. Friends you know, 908 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,240 Speaker 1: friends friends, good friend and you could you could fake 909 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:57,759 Speaker 1: that though yeah, does that scramble your insides with him? 910 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: It did? Doing only I had to. I had to 911 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,719 Speaker 1: deal with that demon of knowing that I want to 912 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:09,320 Speaker 1: destroy his life, but yet I've become that close to him. 913 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:14,399 Speaker 1: Very interesting and kind of spooky. Today, undercover agents are 914 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 1: better equipped to understand the potential hazards of going deep undercover, 915 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,799 Speaker 1: but back then they were just shooting from the hip. 916 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 1: But keeping in mind our supervisors nor myself had any 917 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: experience in this, and we were we were you know, 918 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,800 Speaker 1: we didn't have any POI we were Lewis and Clark 919 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,759 Speaker 1: of the Division wild Life undercover. That's correct. So you 920 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 1: know we had nothing. Now do you look back at 921 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:42,880 Speaker 1: it now you think, yeah, yeah, I was too close, 922 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,319 Speaker 1: but my boss didn't realize it, nor did I realize it. 923 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,680 Speaker 1: And we hadn't met the number one guy yet who 924 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: was after Yeah, so that was the project that took 925 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: me eleven months to meeting. So I had a whole 926 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 1: year eleven months hanging out with Clawk. We drank together. 927 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,720 Speaker 1: I even helped him moved, he put drywall on his house. 928 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,600 Speaker 1: We did everything together. Not a lot of gear traveled 929 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,440 Speaker 1: one hunting trips together. I guess people would just after 930 00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: some period of time you were so deep undercovered that 931 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: they would it just wouldn't even enter their minds that 932 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: you were undercovered. Like if some guy showed up at 933 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:18,640 Speaker 1: their camp and was like, hey, I want to go 934 00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,160 Speaker 1: hunting with you, you know, kind of bright eyed and 935 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,839 Speaker 1: bushy tailed, they might be like wait a minute. But 936 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:27,560 Speaker 1: like helping them hang drywall and being that close to him, 937 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,799 Speaker 1: like they didn't have a clue. I don't think they 938 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: had a clue, and and they were telling you everything, 939 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,360 Speaker 1: they were showing you everything. You were video in this stuff, 940 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: doing everything, you were doing it with them. And then 941 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,320 Speaker 1: I keep going back to the kind of the brilliance 942 00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: of who and I've just met you. But you know 943 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,520 Speaker 1: you don't come across as a as a shiny Wildlife 944 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,520 Speaker 1: Officer undercover guy. I mean, I am shocked in a pole. 945 00:54:54,680 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 1: I am shocked in a hold hurt my feeling? What 946 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,000 Speaker 1: do you mean not a shiny and polish game ward 947 00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,960 Speaker 1: Why you've hurt my feeling? Well, the only the only 948 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,759 Speaker 1: other game warden to know, how that I know his name, 949 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: Chip Gross. Well he look at this now you're talking. 950 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,799 Speaker 1: You're shiny and polish. He wouldn't have fit in with 951 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 1: those guys. Absolutely. Yeah. So so Chip Gross is sitting 952 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,120 Speaker 1: here with us right now. Remember Chip Gross is the 953 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,960 Speaker 1: author of the book about r T Poachers Were My Prey. 954 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,640 Speaker 1: You can buy it on Amazon, and he's retired Ohio 955 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,759 Speaker 1: game boarding and maintains a close friendship with his old 956 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,200 Speaker 1: buddy r T. While we're giving Chip a hard time, 957 00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,360 Speaker 1: he once almost got our T into some serious trouble. 958 00:55:54,920 --> 00:56:00,919 Speaker 1: Here's Chip again. RT is undercover and um, I've been 959 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,400 Speaker 1: wanting to do a story on just the undercover unit itself, 960 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,560 Speaker 1: not be real specific, but just that we have an 961 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,040 Speaker 1: undercover unit and so forth. At the time, I was 962 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,319 Speaker 1: the editor of the Division of Wildlife's magazine is called 963 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 1: Wild Ohio. It was a quarterly publication, so I could 964 00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,040 Speaker 1: pretty much put in there what I wanted to. And 965 00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 1: I thought, well, it's time to do a story on 966 00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,880 Speaker 1: the other country undercover unit. And I went to the 967 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,640 Speaker 1: law enforcement supervisors and I said, is it okay to 968 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,120 Speaker 1: do this because I knew it was very sensitive, and 969 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,160 Speaker 1: they said yeah, I just don't be real specific, and 970 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,839 Speaker 1: I said I won't. So we did a story about that. 971 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,160 Speaker 1: The issue comes out and one of the bad guys 972 00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: gets a copy, Yeah, gets a copy of the story, 973 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,440 Speaker 1: gets he gets the magazine. At the time, the magazine 974 00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: was free. All he had to do was sign up 975 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,400 Speaker 1: and it went out by the tens of thousands across Ohio. 976 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,480 Speaker 1: So the next time our team meets with him, here 977 00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,279 Speaker 1: he comes with the magazine and says, look at this, 978 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: the Division of Wildlife has undercover officers. And there again 979 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,560 Speaker 1: I put Unknowingly, I put Urt on the spot, and 980 00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,359 Speaker 1: he's got us somehow work his way out of that 981 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,920 Speaker 1: because they're suspecting, you know, is this one of the guys, 982 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,320 Speaker 1: Is this one of the officers. So inadvertently I put 983 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,080 Speaker 1: him in a crack and I didn't know that till 984 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:24,959 Speaker 1: years later. RT wasn't happy about Chip's article, but later 985 00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,440 Speaker 1: Chip would write a tell all book about everything art 986 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:33,320 Speaker 1: Ever did. I guess everything is about timing. I want 987 00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,000 Speaker 1: to go back to something that Artie touched on in 988 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,480 Speaker 1: the beginning, something actually very serious. It's when he said 989 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,880 Speaker 1: he didn't want to go back to his real life. 990 00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,080 Speaker 1: And as we go into this section, I want to 991 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:51,400 Speaker 1: highlight and commend the vulnerability of RT as he talks freely. 992 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:56,439 Speaker 1: I'd call it humility and being well grounded. This might 993 00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:01,600 Speaker 1: sound ironic, but RT isn't trying to portray himself as 994 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:06,640 Speaker 1: something that he isn't, at least not anymore. And you 995 00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,240 Speaker 1: said something earlier to about there was a time when 996 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,400 Speaker 1: you didn't want to go back. Well, when you come home, 997 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,320 Speaker 1: you got kids, and you got bills, You've got responsibilities. 998 00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:20,040 Speaker 1: Who wants who wants that I was living? I was 999 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:25,360 Speaker 1: living another life, an outlaw, a rush, constantly doing things. 1000 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,400 Speaker 1: And then when you come home. You know, you go down, 1001 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,520 Speaker 1: stress goes down, your adrenaline goes down, and then your 1002 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:36,120 Speaker 1: face with the reality. You know, uh, kids need this, 1003 00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,000 Speaker 1: the kids need that. You know, we gotta pay this bill. 1004 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: It's passed through. You know, the house needs this. You 1005 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,880 Speaker 1: know what. I'm going back. I don't worry about this stuff. 1006 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,800 Speaker 1: So I didn't like reality. Is that Is that something 1007 00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,240 Speaker 1: that you regret? Yeah, there was a lot of things 1008 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:56,360 Speaker 1: that looking back on it I regret. But now I 1009 00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,040 Speaker 1: look back in and going that was that was stupid. 1010 00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,080 Speaker 1: It was too incre roosting my job. I didn't play 1011 00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,640 Speaker 1: at it. I was it. I never went to my 1012 00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,160 Speaker 1: children's events. If I did go to a was home 1013 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,120 Speaker 1: and went to a ballgame or something, always set on 1014 00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,919 Speaker 1: the opposite side because you never know who's gonna see. 1015 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:17,400 Speaker 1: I never went through graduations. I never went to none 1016 00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,200 Speaker 1: of that because you never know who's kin folks coming 1017 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,200 Speaker 1: in to see something goody graduate, their grandson or their 1018 00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:27,320 Speaker 1: niece or nephew. And I just never did. I never 1019 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,400 Speaker 1: participated any of that. Dude, I'd look back and miss it. Yeah, 1020 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:33,960 Speaker 1: I missed a lot of things growing up with my children. 1021 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,640 Speaker 1: But today we have a great relationship. They understood it. 1022 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,800 Speaker 1: They understand it, and I think they're proud of their dad. 1023 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,600 Speaker 1: That's really good to hear our T say that. It's 1024 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,920 Speaker 1: a touch of that bare grease redemption that we all want. 1025 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,280 Speaker 1: Here's our T now getting down to the heart of 1026 00:59:55,320 --> 01:00:01,040 Speaker 1: it all. You talk about stress, it's unbearable, it's unbelievable. 1027 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,040 Speaker 1: How do you tell a lie on a lie detector's test. 1028 01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,680 Speaker 1: It's a measured by the level of stress. Your whole 1029 01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:11,320 Speaker 1: life is lie. So you talk about stress, but when 1030 01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,200 Speaker 1: you're young and dumb, you don't even think about it. 1031 01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,400 Speaker 1: But it's stress. Do you think they had long term 1032 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,840 Speaker 1: effects on you? That's why I had to retard healthy 1033 01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:29,960 Speaker 1: shoe cold stress. Was it worth it? Oh, you're too good? No, No, 1034 01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:32,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't. If I look back at it. If I 1035 01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:34,520 Speaker 1: had to do it over again and I knew what 1036 01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,440 Speaker 1: I knew right now, I'd just say no. But at 1037 01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,640 Speaker 1: the time is the only thing I knew and the 1038 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:43,160 Speaker 1: only thing I wanted to do. Yeah, I you know, 1039 01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm proud of what I did, proud of what I've done, 1040 01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,960 Speaker 1: and I have no regrets in that regard. Would I 1041 01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:52,840 Speaker 1: do it over again? When I do some things different 1042 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:58,280 Speaker 1: with my family. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It takes some 1043 01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,080 Speaker 1: guts to say that it was it worth it, and 1044 01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,360 Speaker 1: I respect the honesty of that. I think many people 1045 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,120 Speaker 1: might have found a way to lie to themselves about 1046 01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,959 Speaker 1: the choices they've made. However, he's proud of the work 1047 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,960 Speaker 1: that he did, and that's a complex place to stand. 1048 01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:18,720 Speaker 1: RT is complex. There's one thing I can guarantee you. 1049 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,520 Speaker 1: It's that if you met Urt in a grocery store, 1050 01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,200 Speaker 1: you might be tempted to judge his book simply by 1051 01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,920 Speaker 1: its cover. But I'm here to tell you that this 1052 01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,600 Speaker 1: man was a brilliant undercover agent and a master of 1053 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:36,800 Speaker 1: understanding the nuance of the peculiar version of humanity that 1054 01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:41,360 Speaker 1: lives in the rural regions of Appalachia. He dedicated himself 1055 01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,320 Speaker 1: to his craft and his work ethic pushed him to 1056 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,760 Speaker 1: be the best, and there's some nobility inside of that. 1057 01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: He left it all on the court. I want to 1058 01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:57,520 Speaker 1: ask r. T one more thing. Here's my synopsis of undercover, 1059 01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,640 Speaker 1: and you tell me what you think about this is 1060 01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,240 Speaker 1: that you're being asked to do something that is incredibly 1061 01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:09,440 Speaker 1: unnatural and goes against everything that should be the fabric 1062 01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:12,280 Speaker 1: of a human that keeps them together, which ultimately is 1063 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:16,760 Speaker 1: the truth and authenticity. And you are being paid and 1064 01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,720 Speaker 1: have to and by choice, I mean, no way made 1065 01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,040 Speaker 1: you do this, and and and and for the good 1066 01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,440 Speaker 1: of society. It's such a complex space because for the 1067 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,240 Speaker 1: good of society you were serving our communities by doing this, 1068 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,120 Speaker 1: but also at a human level, at the Art Stewart level, 1069 01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,400 Speaker 1: you were doing something that was like really unnatural, which 1070 01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:41,360 Speaker 1: is completely living a lie and making it seem like 1071 01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,560 Speaker 1: the truth. And it just feels like that would have 1072 01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,720 Speaker 1: a tendency to like tear somebody apart. Hey, you're good 1073 01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:53,120 Speaker 1: at what you do. You because you're asking some questions 1074 01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:58,600 Speaker 1: It's rarely been asked, but you're absolutely right. It is 1075 01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:01,080 Speaker 1: something hard to deal with. And I think that's why 1076 01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:03,840 Speaker 1: I decided I didn't want to come home. I didn't 1077 01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:05,560 Speaker 1: have to deal with it. I could just deal with 1078 01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:08,760 Speaker 1: one side of my life, and that was the bad side. 1079 01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,240 Speaker 1: They're just saying, and I have it out there hanging 1080 01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:16,320 Speaker 1: out there is uh. One of my real close friends 1081 01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,800 Speaker 1: who was an undercover agent, gave it to me and 1082 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,160 Speaker 1: it says the Eagle and the Wolf. Have you ever 1083 01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,800 Speaker 1: heard this? The Eagle and the Wolf. The wolf is 1084 01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:30,400 Speaker 1: a luner. He does this, he does all the bad things. 1085 01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,560 Speaker 1: Or an eagle is a source high in the air, 1086 01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:38,120 Speaker 1: stands for good and all the good parts. The eagle 1087 01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,480 Speaker 1: on the wolf. And the bottom question is who am I? 1088 01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:45,720 Speaker 1: And the answer is the one I feed and that 1089 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,800 Speaker 1: there's a lot of truth to that. Who am I? Well, 1090 01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,080 Speaker 1: at that particular time, I was the wolf, That's who U. 1091 01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:57,800 Speaker 1: I eat it, lived it, and did it. But yet 1092 01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:00,280 Speaker 1: knowing at some point in my life I would be 1093 01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:04,680 Speaker 1: that eagle, I'm a bit at a loss for words. 1094 01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,040 Speaker 1: This is usually part of the podcast where I wrap 1095 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,280 Speaker 1: everything up that's been said in a nice little bow 1096 01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,200 Speaker 1: and we're all happy. But I think I'll just let 1097 01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:25,919 Speaker 1: what RT said sink in. I can't thank you all 1098 01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,160 Speaker 1: enough for listening to bear Grease. On the next full 1099 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,000 Speaker 1: Bear Grease episode, we'll be right back here with RT 1100 01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,640 Speaker 1: as he tells of his biggest undercover operation ever called 1101 01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,520 Speaker 1: Operation Redbud, which at the time was the largest turkey 1102 01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:44,920 Speaker 1: poaching sting in US history. It's a fascinating story that 1103 01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,080 Speaker 1: you and your bros won't want to miss, and hey, 1104 01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,880 Speaker 1: please leave us a review on iTunes. Keep telling your 1105 01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:56,840 Speaker 1: buddies about Bear Grease and On another note, you can 1106 01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:00,320 Speaker 1: watch Meet Eat season eleven on the Metiator website for free. 1107 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,480 Speaker 1: All you have to do is sign up with your 1108 01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,200 Speaker 1: email address and the episodes will roll out one per 1109 01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 1: week until the season is complete. So Meat Eater season 1110 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,960 Speaker 1: eleven ain't on Netflix, It's on thumb meat eater dot com, 1111 01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 1: and eventually my moose hunt is gonna be on there, 1112 01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:21,600 Speaker 1: so you have to check it out. So anyway, have 1113 01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,360 Speaker 1: a great week and I look forward to talking with 1114 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,000 Speaker 1: everybody on the render