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Speaker 1: Imagine a future one hundred maybe two hundred years from now.

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Speaker 1: In space, manufacturing has come a long way, and we

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Speaker 1: can now build colossal structures using resources collected from the

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Speaker 1: Moon and the asteroids. First interstellar ship has been built

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Speaker 1: and is getting loaded up with supplies for a long

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Speaker 1: trip to Alpha Centauri. It's now time to pick the

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Speaker 1: crew who will be the ambassadors for humanity should we

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Speaker 1: meet intelligent life in the neighboring Solar System. How many

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Speaker 1: people will we send, how should we pick them, What

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Speaker 1: dangers will they face en root and what will their

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Speaker 1: lives be like during this journey. In our last episode,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the rockets that could carry us to

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Speaker 1: distant stars. Today, we're going to talk about the squishier

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Speaker 1: side of things, focusing on some of the human stuff

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Speaker 1: you'd have to deal with on an interstellar journey. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and the longest flight

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Speaker 2: I've ever taken was fourteen hours.

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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Kelly Wiiner Smith. I studied parasites in space,

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Speaker 1: and I think the longest flight I've taken was twelve

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Speaker 1: I've been down to Brazil. I haven't really kept track

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Speaker 1: of how long my flights were. Where were you going?

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Speaker 2: I went to an absolutely ridiculous slash amazing boondoggle conference

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Speaker 2: in Fiji on the island of Morea, where the University

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Speaker 2: of California has a research station, and we were there

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Speaker 2: to talk about dark matter, of course, So I brought

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Speaker 2: my daughter and we did a lot of snorkeling and hiking,

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Speaker 2: and we rode horseback of the mountains and tried to

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Speaker 2: keep the horses from eating pineapple plants. And it was

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Speaker 2: an amazing time. But wow, the flight was long.

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Speaker 1: What made it a boondoggle?

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Speaker 2: Why do you need to go to a tropical island

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Speaker 2: to talk about dark matter?

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Speaker 1: Don't That's what makes it a Yeah, I gotta be honest.

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Speaker 1: Ecology has a lot of that too. It's like, why

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Speaker 1: do you need to go to the glorious rainforest to

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Speaker 1: answer questions about frogs when you've got frogs in the US.

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Speaker 1: But I get it. We like go into beautiful places.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the perks of being a scientist

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Speaker 2: is getting to travel to weird, random places to meet

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Speaker 2: with your colleagues.

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Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. I love getting to see new places.

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Speaker 1: I often get invited to places that I never actually

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Speaker 1: really wanted to go to, but once I get invited,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I want to go to Slovakia, and

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Speaker 1: I love Slovakia. Broadoslava was beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Well what's your experience like on these long flights, because

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Speaker 2: I always feel like, oh, fourteen hours, no big deal.

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Speaker 2: I'll just watch a few movies and then like two

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Speaker 2: movies in, I'm like, wow, get me off this plane,

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Speaker 2: and then like four movies in I'm gonna kill myself.

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Speaker 2: And then by the time I land, I'm like, hmm,

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Speaker 2: that wasn't so bad.

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Speaker 1: I hate it. I have a very similar experience. I

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Speaker 1: can't sleep. I try to sleep, I can't sleep. I'm

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Speaker 1: not comfortable. Every once in a while, I'll get lucky

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Speaker 1: and there'll be no one else in the row and

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Speaker 1: I can just like lay down and at least then

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Speaker 1: I feel kind of rest ish or restoids. I know,

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Speaker 1: I hate it too, And then I always feel kind

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Speaker 1: of angry at the people in first class because they've

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Speaker 1: got like a much nicer setup. But you know, what

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Speaker 1: are you gonna do.

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Speaker 2: You're not gonna spend ten thousand dollars for that flight,

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Speaker 2: that's right. Yeah, no, But if I was an astronaut

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Speaker 2: and I was going to the Moon or to Mars

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Speaker 2: or to Alpha Centauri, I might want the engineers to

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Speaker 2: build in a seat that can fully recline. What do

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Speaker 2: you think?

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Speaker 1: Heck, yes, you do have to have a completely different

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Speaker 1: mindset to really enjoy super long trips. Like Jim Lovell

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Speaker 1: and Frank Borman were on a Gemini trip around the

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Speaker 1: Earth and I think they were up there for something

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Speaker 1: like two weeks, and it was a really tiny space

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Speaker 1: and at least on airplanes, like, yeah, the bathroom is small,

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Speaker 1: it's super inconvenient. I hate it. But it's got a

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Speaker 1: door and the Gemini didn't. And so Frank Borman tried

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Speaker 1: to go all twelve days without having a bowel movement,

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Speaker 1: and I think he made it like eight days or something,

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Speaker 1: and then he was like, Jim, I can't wait anymore.

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Speaker 2: I'm about to make a delivery.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh. Yeah, So anyway, it could be worse.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying that the cutting edge super distant travel

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Speaker 2: is less convenient and less comfortable than like economy flights

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Speaker 2: across the country. That doesn't make any sense to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, you've got to pay for all of

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Speaker 1: the space that you send up there, and it's super expensive.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, let's be honest, anybody who's told you

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Speaker 1: get to go to space is going to put up

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Speaker 1: with whatever you give them, and so they're definitely going

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Speaker 1: to go. But there was a recent SpaceX trip where

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Speaker 1: there were complaints about the bathroom also, and I think

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Speaker 1: it was the Dragon capsule. Restrooms in space are just

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Speaker 1: hard to pull off.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think this is another case of like my

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Speaker 2: over optimistic rose colored glasses when it comes to space travel,

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Speaker 2: imagining that the problems we have with like airplane flights

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Speaker 2: are not going to be even worse on space trips.

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Speaker 2: They're somehow all going to be comfortable and get along

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Speaker 2: and the food is going to be amazing like it

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Speaker 2: is on Star Trek. Right. That's why I was excited

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Speaker 2: that today we're going to dig into like the reality

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Speaker 2: of a potential interstellar trip. What's it going to be like?

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Speaker 2: Will there be doors on the bathrooms? How far back

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Speaker 2: will this eat recline? And will they have anything besides

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Speaker 2: peanuts and pretzels?

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Speaker 1: Well, let's dig in and find out. So this is

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Speaker 1: part two of our interstellar travel series. We talked about

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Speaker 1: the kinds of rockets that get you to space in

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Speaker 1: the last episode, and today we're talking about the squishy

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Speaker 1: human side of things, and so we asked our listeners,

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Speaker 1: can humans survive interstellar travel? Why or why not. Here's

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Speaker 1: what they had to say. Humans could survive interstellar travel

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Speaker 1: with terraform spaceships, and over multiple generations, they could get

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Speaker 1: somewhere interesting.

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Speaker 3: There are so many unknown issues with closed ecosystems in

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Speaker 3: order to produce the food that we need in the

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Speaker 3: form of plants, et cetera, that I'm too sure that

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Speaker 3: we've solved all the problems necessary in order to have

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Speaker 3: a long duration interstellar travel with.

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Speaker 4: Our current technology. I don't think it's possible, but maybe

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Speaker 4: with advances in propulsion and radiation shielding and artificial gravity

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Speaker 4: from propulsion, that might be possible.

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Speaker 5: One human couldn't survive because we haven't sought in suspended

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Speaker 5: animation yet. But if you're talking about generations of humans,

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Speaker 5: if as human we've sorted all the problems of sustaining

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Speaker 5: reproduction and nutrition and health, I wonder whether the risks

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Speaker 5: of the dangers posed by cosmic rays will actually be

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Speaker 5: less in deep space. We do only then have to

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Speaker 5: worry about the problem of re entry into the new

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Speaker 5: stellar system.

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Speaker 6: I think generally it's possible, but you have the problem

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Speaker 6: that when you go fast you have cosmic rays that

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Speaker 6: are really high energy, and if you go slow, it

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Speaker 6: takes forever. So it's a tradeoff and you're lose in

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Speaker 6: both situations.

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Speaker 7: It depends on how far away the other stars. If

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Speaker 7: the star we're trying to get to is there one

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Speaker 7: that we're going to share our clouds with in about

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Speaker 7: a million years or so, then that's much more achievable

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Speaker 7: than a star on the other side of our galaxy.

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Speaker 8: I say no because the first two mens who leave

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Speaker 8: Earth going to interstellar space will not be alive because

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Speaker 8: it takes approximately twenty two to twenty five thousand years

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Speaker 8: to exit our solar system. And that opens up the

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Speaker 8: question about children in space to continue to journey, because

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Speaker 8: the adults who begin the journey will not live to

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Speaker 8: exit our solar system.

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Speaker 9: So no, if we allow for human reproduction all root,

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Speaker 9: which is a big if, humans would encounter significant survival challenges,

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Speaker 9: not the least which is that our physiology is ill

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Speaker 9: equipped to handle zero gravity and excessive radiation exposure in

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Speaker 9: the vein of we do not know what we do

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Speaker 9: not know. There are likely other factors that terrustrial living

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Speaker 9: either provides for us or protects us from that we

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Speaker 9: would faithfully and tragically encounter on the interstellar voyage.

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Speaker 10: We can imagine traveling to other solar systems, but can

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Speaker 10: we deal with all the questions radiation, food, power sources, generationships.

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Speaker 10: We just don't know enough at this point.

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Speaker 2: Those are super fun answers, And if you find yourself

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Speaker 2: speaking back to the podcast with your own answers, then

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Speaker 2: send us those answers and we'll put them on the

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Speaker 2: pod so that everyone else can hear what you have

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Speaker 2: to say. Just write to us to questions at Danielankelly

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Speaker 2: dot org and we will share your insights with the world.

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Speaker 1: Looking forward to hearing from you. And we've been very

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Speaker 1: excited to have more women sharing their responses lately, so

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Speaker 1: let's keep that up. Go women.

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Speaker 2: Well, do you think our listeners also have rose colored

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Speaker 2: glasses and they're underestimating the difficulty of traveling to space

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Speaker 2: or do you think they have a realistic sense.

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Speaker 1: We have a really nice range of people who are

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Speaker 1: super optimistic, and I would maybe say not quite reasonably so,

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Speaker 1: and then people who are maybe a bit more down

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Speaker 1: on the enterprise than is necessary. We've got a lot

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Speaker 1: of variability. I think it depends a lot on the

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Speaker 1: timeframe that you're willing to consider for this question.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, let's dig into the problem why space

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Speaker 2: travel is so much harder than airplane trips, or if

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Speaker 2: it's just airplane trips times a thousand, tell us what

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Speaker 2: basically are the obstacles here to traveling in safety and

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Speaker 2: comfort to another solar system.

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Speaker 1: Well, as you pointed out in the last episode, space

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Speaker 1: is vast, and so if we're going to Alpha Centauri,

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Speaker 1: that is four light years away. So with current technologies,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about eighty thousand years. That's a lot of

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Speaker 1: human generations.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of movies to watch.

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Speaker 1: Wow, oh my gosh. Yeah, maybe in the next one

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Speaker 1: hundred years Marvel will make enough movies to get you

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Speaker 1: to Alpha Centauri.

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Speaker 2: I think there might be enough fast and furious movies

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Speaker 2: to make sure.

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Speaker 1: I would not make it to Alpha Centauri fast and

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Speaker 1: furious movies. I would rather push myself out the airlock.

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Speaker 2: But our he no, you're missing out, You're missing out.

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Speaker 2: Fast and furious is fantastic because they don't take themselves seriously.

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Speaker 2: Like every movie they have an even more ridiculous stunt.

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Speaker 2: They're like, oh yeah, how about a space shuttle. Okay,

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Speaker 2: how about a submarine on the ice with a torpedo.

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Speaker 2: It's ridiculous and fantastic and really creative. I watch a

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Speaker 2: lot of terrible movies, and there's always something new in

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Speaker 2: the Fast and Furius that makes me go, whoa that

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Speaker 2: it was cool. So yeah, don't overlook them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'll take another look at the Fast

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Speaker 1: and Furious series. I didn't imagine I would say that

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Speaker 1: phrase today, but there you go.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think we want to travel the stars

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Speaker 2: fast and furious. I think it's kind of more like

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Speaker 2: slow and calm is the way to go.

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Speaker 1: That's what I would like, and with no explosions or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. So you said that we could get

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Speaker 1: to Alpha Centauri in forty years if you can travel

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Speaker 1: at ten percent the speed of light. Yeah, So we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about a range of different options. What

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Speaker 1: if you could get there fast if the technology works out,

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Speaker 1: and what if you need to get there over the

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Speaker 1: course of multiple generations. So you need to have a

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Speaker 1: generational ship sometimes called an arc and this field has

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Speaker 1: a good sense of humor, so sometimes they call the

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Speaker 1: study archaeology also, yeah, which I love.

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Speaker 2: That is very cool.

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Speaker 1: All right, So one human thing we're going to need

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Speaker 1: to overcome is this whole money situation because the cost

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Speaker 1: of a project like this is probably going to be

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Speaker 1: massively prohibitive. So you talked about how much mass would

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Speaker 1: be needed to hold the propellant, and that for chemical

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Speaker 1: rockets the tank would have to be as big as Jupiter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you also need to somehow find that fuel.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Right, basically you have to use Jupiter as your rocket. Yeh.

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Speaker 1: Many layers of problems here. But you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: talking about bringing humans that are awake, you're also going

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Speaker 1: to need space for recreation areas, space for schooling, space

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Speaker 1: for medical facilities, places to grow food. The International Space

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Speaker 1: Station is the most expensive human made object ever and

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Speaker 1: it's clocking in at about one hundred and fifty billion

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Speaker 1: dollars and it usually holds seven people uncomfortably.

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Speaker 2: So this is going to cost a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: But we're basically just going to ignore the financial side

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Speaker 2: of the question.

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Speaker 1: We are, yes, right, So let's assume that money is

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Speaker 1: no longer an object. Yea, yeah, hey, that's right. Humanity

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Speaker 1: has decided we absolutely must do this. Okay, what kind

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Speaker 1: of problems are the humans going to encounter? As you

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Speaker 1: might remember from our conversations on Mars and the Moon,

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Speaker 1: space has a lot of radiation that is bad for humans.

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Speaker 1: It has two kinds of radiation that are not very

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Speaker 1: common here on Earth, and that scalactic cosmic radiation and

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Speaker 1: solar particle events. And these are bad for equipment and

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Speaker 1: for people. And I'm kicking over to Daniel tell us

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Speaker 1: about galactic cosmic radiation and solar particle events.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Sun puts out a lot of light,

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Speaker 2: but it also shoots out a lot of other stuff.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: They're protons, they're electrons. Basically, it's just spewing plasma. We

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Speaker 2: call this the solar wind, and it's moving at high speed.

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Speaker 2: So these particles are dangerous because any one of them

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Speaker 2: hits your body, tears through it like a little tiny bullet.

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Speaker 2: You can rip apart DNA, you can destroy cells. It's

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Speaker 2: not good. One random one you're probably fine, But you

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Speaker 2: take enough of these you're getting cancer. And down here

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Speaker 2: on the surface of the Earth. We don't worry about

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Speaker 2: this because while the solar wind is hitting the Earth,

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Speaker 2: the atmosphere protects us. It's an enormous, very thick, very

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Speaker 2: massive blanket. And the whole idea is that when you

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Speaker 2: go out into space, you no longer have that atmosphere,

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Speaker 2: so you have to replicate that with shielding. Galactic cosmic

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Speaker 2: rays are a whole other question. They're basically radiation from

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Speaker 2: other stuff in the galaxy, like the combined radiation from

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Speaker 2: other stars and from black holes and from other weird

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Speaker 2: stuff we've never even figured out, like there are particles

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Speaker 2: that are so high energy. There's nothing in the universe

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Speaker 2: we know of that can make particles go that fast,

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Speaker 2: and yet we see them. So there's like really fascinating

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Speaker 2: physics mysteries there. But from a human survival point of view,

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Speaker 2: you don't want these super duper high energy particles hitting you. Basically,

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Speaker 2: space is filled with tiny bullets, and you got to

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Speaker 2: go up there with a bulletproof vest.

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Speaker 1: I am always so impressed by how eloquent you are

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Speaker 1: when I put you on the spot, Bravo. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to need to shield against this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just a problem for human bodies, it's

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Speaker 1: also a problem for our machines. Did I tell the

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Speaker 1: story on the show before about Terry Vertz and Samantha

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Speaker 1: Christofferetti when the ISS had a false alarm?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Tell us?

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Speaker 1: All right, So you've got Terry and Samantha in space

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Speaker 1: on the International Space Station and an alarm starts going

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Speaker 1: off and Terry's not immediately sure what this alarm means,

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Speaker 1: but Samantha has memorized all the alarms and it's an

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Speaker 1: ammonia leak. And on the US side, ammonia is used

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Speaker 1: to cool the space station is also toxic. So the

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Speaker 1: protocol for what you do when there's an ammonia leak

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Speaker 1: as you run over to the Russian side, you close

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Speaker 1: the first hatch, you take off your clothes. You close

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Speaker 1: the second hatch with you on the other side, you take.

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Speaker 2: Off your clothes. Why do you have to take off

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Speaker 2: your clothes as just make it more fun and dramatic.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean one, sure, but also that ammonia

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Speaker 1: could cling to your clothes and you don't want to

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Speaker 1: bring it over to the Russian side. So you got

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Speaker 1: to hope the Russians have some undies they'll be willing

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Speaker 1: to loan you, and so they ran over. They closed

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Speaker 1: the first hatch, but they didn't smell the ammonia. And

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Speaker 1: this is an important sort of lesson about how humans respond,

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Speaker 1: like it sort of doesn't matter what protocols you put

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Speaker 1: into place. When one human is looking at another human

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Speaker 1: and they're both like, am I going to really see

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Speaker 1: you naked? Right now? They decided to just skip that

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Speaker 1: step and they went in with all of their clothes

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Speaker 1: over to the Russian module. It did turn out it

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Speaker 1: was a false alarm, and the reason you go to

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Speaker 1: the Russian module is because they use glycol to cool

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Speaker 1: their side, which is not as toxic, and so if

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Speaker 1: the leak was coming from anywhere, it was the US

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Speaker 1: side anyway. It was later determined that the most likely

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Speaker 1: reason that this alarm got switched on was because the

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Speaker 1: computer had been hit with galactic cosmic radiation, which messed

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Speaker 1: with the equipment and started setting off alarms. You could

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Speaker 1: have cancer, cognitive declines, your machines could start breaking down.

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Speaker 1: So this is a problem we need to take seriously.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is actually really fascinating from an engineering point

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Speaker 2: of view. You know, what's happening is that these particles

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Speaker 2: are passing through your equipment. Sensitive bits of it are

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Speaker 2: mostly made out of silicon, and when a high energy

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Speaker 2: particle passes through, it leaves a trail of ions, you know,

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Speaker 2: it like kicks electrons and leaves holes, and this is

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Speaker 2: how these things work also, right, they like separate the

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Speaker 2: holes and the electrons, and so all this equipment can

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Speaker 2: get like a false bit, like you can have a

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Speaker 2: zero in your memory and then they can turn into

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Speaker 2: a one or something, and so these kind of cosmic

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Speaker 2: ray bitflips are real concern and like massive data centers

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Speaker 2: worry about this also, but they have a lot of

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Speaker 2: error correction and so they have like duplications and cross

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Speaker 2: checking to basically remove this. So you can either have

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Speaker 2: a lot of duplication or you can try to make

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Speaker 2: get radiation hard by shielding it. The even folks who

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Speaker 2: are using diamonds instead of silicon, because diamond has a

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Speaker 2: lot of the same electrical properties, but it's radiation hard.

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Speaker 2: You can grow diamond, it's much more expensive and there's

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Speaker 2: not a huge industry for this. But like at the

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Speaker 2: large hadron collider, there's very intense radiation near all of

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Speaker 2: our sensitive detectors. So every couple of years, we've got

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Speaker 2: to pull it out and swap in a new one

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Speaker 2: because it's basically ruined.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, electronics are very sensitive to high levels of radiation.

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Speaker 2: And if you are relying on your electronics to keep

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Speaker 2: you alive and an eighty thousand year journey in all

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Speaker 2: of your grandkids and great grandkids, then yeah, you want

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Speaker 2: those things to work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so the shielding could come in the form

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Speaker 1: of things like water, like you could store your water

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Speaker 1: supply on the outside. Would that help with galctic cosmic

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Speaker 1: radiation too, Daniel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, with various kinds of it. Yeah, okay, but mostly

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Speaker 2: you basically just need high Z mass, like you need

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Speaker 2: atoms with a lot of protons and neutrons between you

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Speaker 2: and the radiation.

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Speaker 1: Got it. I've also seen proposals for scraping the regolith

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Speaker 1: off the Moon and padding your interstellarship with it. That

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Speaker 1: would be complicated, but it's a solution.

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Speaker 2: That would be pretty cool because then your ship looks

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Speaker 2: like a rock, you know, yeah, like floating through space,

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Speaker 2: like masquerading as an asteroid or something.

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Speaker 1: Well, another complicated problem we're going to need to solve

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Speaker 1: is what do you do about no gravity.

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Speaker 2: Right, But the takeaway from the shielding is an important one. Right.

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Speaker 2: It makes our ship big and massive and heavy, and

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Speaker 2: that makes it expensive. Right, But fortunately money is no

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Speaker 2: hurdle for.

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Speaker 1: Us, so cool, that's right. In space manufacturing might help

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Speaker 1: with this a lot. So you know, you could, like

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Speaker 1: I mentioned, go get the regulis from the surface of

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Speaker 1: the Moon, but also you could go to the asteroids

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Speaker 1: and extract water from the asteroids. In that way, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to pay to boost it from Earth. But

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Speaker 1: one way or another, it's going to be an expensive,

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Speaker 1: massive project.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So problem number one is radiation.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and problem number two is going to make the

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Speaker 1: design of our vehicle even more complicated. And problem number

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Speaker 1: two is that there's no gravity in deep space. So

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Speaker 1: we know from astronauts on the International Space Station and

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Speaker 1: the space stations that came before that when they are

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Speaker 1: essentially in free fall and feeling the equivalent of no gravity,

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Speaker 1: that their bones start breaking down, their muscles start breaking down.

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Speaker 1: And the gravity on Earth and the fact that we're

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Speaker 1: constantly moving around and submitting our bones and muscles to gravity,

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Speaker 1: and then the pressure of our bodies as we run

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Speaker 1: around that makes our bones and muscles strong. That's like

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Speaker 1: a que Our bodies need to keep these things toned.

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Speaker 1: Without those cues, they just start to decay because you're

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Speaker 1: not using them, so bodies start falling apart. Additionally, we

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Speaker 1: see declines in vision, and we think that's because the

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Speaker 1: fluids in our bodies without gravity to pull them down,

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Speaker 1: sort of accumulate near our heads and change the shape

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Speaker 1: of our eyes. There's also some evidence that there could

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Speaker 1: be some cognitive declines. Basically, we're gonna want some gravity

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Speaker 1: when we're living out our lives on a ship, and folks.

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Speaker 2: Out there might be thinking, well, you know, we're adapted

404
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Speaker 2: to life on Earth, but if we spend it long

405
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Speaker 2: enough in space, maybe our bodies are just going to adapt.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we don't need those bones and those muscles because hey,

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Speaker 2: we're all floating around to the Blue Danube anyway, right,

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Speaker 2: Why do we care about degradation of our bones and

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Speaker 2: our muscles if we're just floating in space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's a great question. We don't actually know

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Speaker 1: that we could survive long term. So the longest anyone

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Speaker 1: has ever been in space, I think, is four hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty seven days. That was Valeri Polyi call. So

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Speaker 1: we don't even have like more than a year and

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Speaker 1: a half of consecutive time in space. We know that

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Speaker 1: astronauts lose something like one percent of the density of

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Speaker 1: their hip bone per month, and we don't know if

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Speaker 1: that tapers off eventually. But if you imagine trying to

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Speaker 1: have babies in space, hold.

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Speaker 2: On, wait, I'm gonna imagine it. Hold on. Hmmm, yeah

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Speaker 2: that seems gooey.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is such a dive response. The gooeyness

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Speaker 1: is not a problem.

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Speaker 2: Man, But now you're in space, you have like weird

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Speaker 2: balls of goo.

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Speaker 1: It's oh, imagine trying to do a C section in

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Speaker 1: space with like the blood floating around your head anyway unpleasants.

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Speaker 2: Or imagine like a diaper explosion, you know, like loss

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Speaker 2: of containment in space. I don't know about that loss

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Speaker 2: of containment. You've had that experience, you know what I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about. We've all had the like Transatlantic flight with

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Speaker 2: loss of containment of the diaper like ooh, no, I.

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Speaker 1: Did right when a plane was taking off. My had

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Speaker 1: a blowout on my lap and we couldn't get up

435
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Speaker 1: for thirty minutes, and oh man, nobody liked me. And

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Speaker 1: it brought a change of clothes for her, but not

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Speaker 1: for me, but she sat on my lap anyway. All Right,

438
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,959
Speaker 1: these problems can only get more difficult in space. So

439
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,440
Speaker 1: we don't know, for example, that women's hips will be

440
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 1: able to survive childbirth, and we just generally don't know

441
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 1: if you can survive a lifetime. But maybe you can.

442
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,959
Speaker 1: So let's say that you can. Let's say that not

443
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 1: only can you survive, but you can also go through

444
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,880
Speaker 1: reproduction in zero gravity, which again I think is highly unlikely,

445
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,439
Speaker 1: but we don't have a lot of good science for that.

446
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 1: There's a lot of reasons why you'd want at least

447
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 1: a little bit of gravity, and you know, a lot

448
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 1: of them have to do with things like using the restroom.

449
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 1: So we talked a little bit about how that's unpleasant.

450
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 1: At the start of the show.

451
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,679
Speaker 2: My gooey imagination is filling in the details for me.

452
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 1: Yes, oh oh yeah, you're really into Guey today. It's

453
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,199
Speaker 1: only going to go downhill from here. When I was

454
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,119
Speaker 1: researching a city on Mars, every space vehicle that I

455
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,160
Speaker 1: read about had a story about escapees, where the escapees

456
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 1: were like bits of feces that kind of floated out.

457
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: It's hard to keep things clean. Everything is more of

458
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 1: a pain in the rear end. If you have just

459
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 1: a little bit of gravity, Surgery gets easier, restrooms get easier,

460
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: farming gets easier. We're almost certainly going to need at

461
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 1: least a little bit of gravity just to like hold

462
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 1: our stuff down and make our lives easy.

463
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 2: And if you hope that your descendants or whoever is

464
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 2: arriving in the distant Solar System is going to be

465
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 2: able to get off the ship and walk around on

466
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 2: this new alien planet, they're going to have to have

467
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: some bones and muscles, right, So it makes sense to

468
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 2: maintain that capacity on the trip.

469
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So not only are we going to have this

470
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,879
Speaker 1: massive object, but this massive object needs to have at

471
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 1: least some areas that are spinning to create artificial gravity,

472
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 1: so that you've got some of that force keeping your

473
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: body strong or helping the brown trout swim down the

474
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 1: river in the right direction.

475
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 2: All right, So we've talked about radiation and that might

476
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: be a solvable problem with enough shielding, and we talked

477
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 2: about gravity might be a solvable problem if we have

478
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: acceleration or something spinning or something like that. So so far,

479
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 2: I'm feeling kind of optimistic about how our kids' kids, kids' kids'

480
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: kids might be able to walk off the ship and

481
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 2: stand on a planet around Alpha Centauri. So let's take

482
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 2: a break, and when we come back, Kelly's going to

483
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: tell us about how that's all an impossible dream.

484
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be negative today.

485
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 2: The facts that we're going to get into though, all right,

486
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 2: So we're back and we're talking about whether we could

487
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 2: survive an interstellar trip, whether it's a good idea to

488
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: build an arc where people can have their babies and

489
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 2: their babies babies babies can one day visit an alien

490
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 2: solar system, or whether these problems are insurmountable. We've talked

491
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 2: about radiation, We've talked about money, we've talked about gravity.

492
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 2: Now Kelly tell us about knowledge. Why do we need

493
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: to make sure knowledge doesn't decay along the way we.

494
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 1: We've already talked about how difficult it is to store

495
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: knowledge in computers, or at least how careful you need

496
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 1: to be to protect it from radiation. But another problem

497
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: you're going to have is that the farther you get

498
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: from Earth, the longer the communication delay. So if people

499
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: are living on Mars, for example, there's a minimum three

500
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: minute communication delay, just because it takes a long time

501
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 1: for the message to go from Mars to Earth and

502
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: then from Earth to Mars when you're ready to respond.

503
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 2: I think that's really fascinating because you know, the Earth

504
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 2: is not small, but it's small compared to the speed

505
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 2: of light, So you can have what feels like an

506
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 2: instantaneous phone call with somebody in Tokyo, right, and the

507
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 2: lag is imperceptible. But then once you go to the

508
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,959
Speaker 2: Moon or to Mars, like now, it really ruins what

509
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: it feels like to have a conversation.

510
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 3: Right.

511
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: You can ask a question, you got to wait like

512
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: six minutes to hear the answer. That's like not a conversation,

513
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 2: it's more like writing letters back and forth.

514
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, I mean, I think even on the

515
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: Moon you can have a close to real time conversation,

516
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of an awkward delay. But when

517
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: you get to Mars, it's a minimum of three minutes,

518
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: a maximum of something like twenty to twenty two minutes.

519
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: But when you're starting to get to Alpha Centauri, it's

520
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: just going to keep extending, extending, extending, until at some

521
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: point you're not communicating anymore.

522
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: So for example, if you like need it support, you're like, hey,

523
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 2: my MacBook is crashing. You don't want to wait four

524
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: years for the answer to be like, turn it on

525
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: and off again.

526
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: That's right, it's not helpful anymore. At that point you've

527
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: probably figured.

528
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: It out, hope, so, or you're all dead.

529
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean that also means at some point

530
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: you're gonna stop benefiting from any new knowledge that is

531
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: created on Earth because it's gonna be hard to get

532
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: it to you and probably at some point impossible to

533
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,959
Speaker 1: get it to you. But it also means if somebody

534
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: has an illness that you don't have anyone on the

535
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: ship who's an expert in that you're on your own

536
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: the surgical procedure that you're doing. You better hope you

537
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: downloaded a good YouTube video for it, because nobody's gonna

538
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: walk you through it in real time. You really are

539
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 1: on your own.

540
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't look things up unless you bring like

541
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: all of human knowledge with you somehow download Wikipedia onto

542
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: your ship's computers. I mean that seems that could be

543
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 2: a good idea anyway, doesn't it.

544
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, yes, for both entertainment purposes and you know,

545
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: knowledge purposes. You should bring as much information with you

546
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: as you can. That would absolutely be worth the storage space.

547
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: In my opinion, what.

548
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: Do you think takes more storage space? Like Wikipedia or

549
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: all the Fast and Furious movies?

550
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: Are you taking Wikipedia in every language?

551
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,479
Speaker 2: Ooh question?

552
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: I don't know.

553
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: We better though, yeah, including the Scottish one. That the

554
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: Scottish one turns out to be totally made up.

555
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: There's no Scottish wikip Wait what There.

556
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: Is a Scottish Wikipedia, but it's mostly written by a

557
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: guy who just invented what he thought Scottish should sound like.

558
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, it's bad.

559
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: I am regularly amazed by the amount of time that

560
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 1: humans are willing to put into messing with each other.

561
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: That must have taken a long time.

562
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 2: Oh he thought he was doing something good. No, he

563
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: was like, hey, nobody else has done this, and I

564
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: know how to do it right, so my goodness, the

565
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: best intentions. Anyway, you should read that story. It's hilarious. Okay,

566
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: but anyway, what is the impediment though, to just bringing

567
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 2: all of human knowledge with us and saying like, all right,

568
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: we're gonna be cut off from the mothership or we're

569
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: not going to get the latest advancements in quantum computing

570
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: at the same moment. Maybe they can beam them to

571
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: us as they come in who are a little behind.

572
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 2: But why can't we just bring it all with us.

573
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: You can bring a ton of knowledge with you, but

574
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: you know, if you set me down next to a

575
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: bunch of textbooks on quantum computing, I could do nothing

576
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: with that information. Like I mean, maybe after a couple

577
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: generations I could. But this ties into the next problem

578
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: that we're going to deal with, which is you have

579
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: to pick whatich humans you send with you, and what

580
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: kind of knowledge they have, and how many of them

581
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: you get. But I'm guessing you had another limitation in mind.

582
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: Was it how many hard drives you'd have to bring?

583
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: Or should I stop trying to guess what you're thinking.

584
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: No, I think that your point is valid that you

585
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 2: can bring a bunch of knowledge, but just having that

586
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: knowledge isn't enough. You need people who can digest it

587
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 2: and people who can put it to work. So you're

588
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: essentially saying, make sure you bring enough physicists on board.

589
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: You know, you guys are good for a lot of stuff.

590
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: I don't know how many practical problems. Also, you have

591
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: to worry about like hygiene interstellar trip, but you should

592
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: bring a couple cleanly physicists probably, Yeah.

593
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: I think the real problem here is that you need

594
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: a breadth of notice, right, And so there's a question of,

595
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: like what is the minimum size of a community that

596
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: has enough technical knowledge and expertise to basically run independently

597
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 2: of Earth, Because it's not like two people, it's not

598
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: ten people. And I'm guessing that's where you're going to

599
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: go next, is like how big a community you need

600
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 2: not just have the knowledge, but also to like have

601
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: healthy babies.

602
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm going to be focusing on the healthy

603
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: babi's part, but this occupation's part is really important, and

604
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: it's very hard to have a concrete answer for it

605
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: because it depends on what you're willing to live without.

606
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: I heard once that there's something like one hundred thousand

607
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: medical specialties, and that number seems unreasonably large. But let's

608
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: even say there's like a thousand medical specialties. Okay, you'd

609
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: probably want one person from each of those specialties, or

610
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: like duplicates of all of those people, but you also

611
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: need janitors and plumbers and engineers and farmers, and there's

612
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: just so many different kinds of people you would like

613
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: to have there, but you might not be able to

614
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: have everyone you want there. Like, you know, you probably

615
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: couldn't have three of every remedical specialist if there are

616
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand kinds, So you're gonna have to sort

617
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: of pick and choose and decide what you're willing to

618
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: do without.

619
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: I think there's also an interesting interplay there between are

620
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 2: you just trying to survive the trip or are you

621
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 2: trying to bring the seeds of a future civilization with you?

622
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: Because think about just like pencils. Okay, you need a

623
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: lot of pencils on an eighty thousand year journey. Maybe

624
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: you could just stock a bunch of pencils, right, bring

625
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: a bunch of pencils, or like light bulbs or whatever,

626
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 2: and you might be able to survive the journey and

627
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 2: not use up all the light bulbs and pencils. But

628
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 2: once you get there, you might still want light bulbs

629
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: and pencils in a thousand years. And so what you

630
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: need to do is bring like the manufacturing capacity to

631
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: produce all of the goodies that we expect for a

632
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: certain quality of life, or to severely restrict the goodies

633
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: that you're expecting these people to live without. So you

634
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: really need to bring like your entire manufacturing supply chain

635
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: and pipeline with you if you're going to seed a

636
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: civilization on the other end of this, not just like

637
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: visit Alpha Centauri and turn around and come back.

638
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's jump for a second to a conversation

639
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: about what you bring with you. So, yeah, you would

640
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: want to maybe bring all the manufacturing stuff to make pencils. Additionally,

641
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: we should have invited Katrina on the show briefly, because

642
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: you're going to want to make sure, for example, you

643
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: have a diversity of microbes, But how do you know

644
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: which ones to bring?

645
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: You just bring all the poop on Earth. That's the

646
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: easy solution, that's what she would say.

647
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: Okay, but a lot of that poop on Earth has parasites,

648
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: And while I don't want to live in a world

649
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: without interesting parasites to study, I think most people would,

650
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: although I prefer parasites that aren't infecting people. But anyway, so, yeah,

651
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: you got to figure out what kind of microbes and

652
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: that requires knowledge that we don't necessarily even have yet.

653
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: What kind of microbes do you want to bring with you?

654
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: But you also need to bring medicine, but medicine expires,

655
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: and eighty thousand years is a long time, so you're

656
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: probably going to want to bring the equipment that you

657
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: need to make more medicine. And there are some designs

658
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: for three D printers that will print medicine on demand,

659
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: but you need to make sure you've got the raw

660
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: materials for that.

661
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. It feels like you're cutting that very tip

662
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: off a very complex pyramid of manufacturing and civilization, and

663
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: it's going to rumble eventually. It feels very difficult to

664
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: maintain the same level of civilization if you're not bringing

665
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: the whole pyramid with you. And it turns out the

666
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: pyramid is huge, right, Like, just to make a pencil

667
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: requires an enormous manufacturing capacity and lots of different specialties.

668
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: Our global supply chains are amazing. We rely on them

669
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: for so many things. That pencil takes a million people.

670
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: Thing came from somewhere in one of these days. I

671
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: want to figure out, was it a Milton Friedman essay?

672
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: I do no holpu with't Malcolm Gladwell, because you can't

673
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: trust anything in these.

674
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: We're on the record now, all right, let's go ahead

675
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: and just accept that there's a lot of stuff that

676
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: you're going to need to bring if you want to

677
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: keep your standard of living reasonably high, and also a

678
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that you're going to need to bring

679
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: or be able to build so that you can replace

680
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: parts of your ship as they break down over time

681
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: in the very harsh environment of space. So now let's

682
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: jump to biology, the good part. Let's get to the

683
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: good part.

684
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: All right, Are we talking about parasites? Minimum number of

685
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 2: parasites to bring to allisantaries?

686
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, No, I couldn't figure out a way to really

687
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: shoehorn parasites and more than once.

688
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: I'm ready for it though, when you ring it up,

689
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: I'm ready for it.

690
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: Okay, good, But how.

691
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: Big a group do we need, like biologically to keep

692
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: our community healthy and to make sure we don't all

693
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: suffer from some genetic defect that like one guy has

694
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: on board? How big a population do we need?

695
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a really difficult question. So we don't

696
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: necessarily know what kind of diversity we need. So it

697
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: would be great to have people, for example, that are

698
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: resistant to radiation in case we can't shield all of it.

699
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: But we don't really know what genes are important for

700
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: that at this point. So the more diversity you can have,

701
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: the better. You also want people who are not closely

702
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: related to each other, because we all have some genes

703
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: that are carrying the code for negative traits. So you know,

704
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: it could be sickle cell anemia or something like that,

705
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: where if you get two versions of the gene that

706
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: cause the disease, you're in a lot more trouble than

707
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: if you just have one.

708
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: I wonder, from an evolution air point of view, if

709
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: this is a scenario where you actually want to be

710
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: susceptible to radiation because it induces a higher mutation rate

711
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: in your babies. And that might mean that you lose

712
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: a bunch because like they have bad mutations, But you

713
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: also might like invent some new weird like spacefaring, hearty

714
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: human that can like I don't know, extrude pencils from

715
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: some new orifice or something you're useful. I don't know, Like,

716
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: is there a possibility there that more mutation might actually

717
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: be beneficial?

718
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: So mutation is a mechanism through which you get more

719
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: genetic diversity, and some of that could be good. I

720
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: think our expectation would be statistically, you'd probably get a

721
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: lot more things breaking than a lot more things resulting

722
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: in pencils coming out of your nose at appropriate times

723
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: or something. And I think a lot of those mutations

724
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: are going to be you know, like causing cancer as

725
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: you're older, and not necessarily resulting in like really well

726
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: adapted babies. But who knows, who knows? All right, So

727
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: I've seen a bunch of estimates for how many people

728
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: you need, and you do need to be careful about

729
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: who these people are. So like, yes, we talked about

730
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: you want doctors and stuff like that, but when you're

731
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: thinking about the number of people you need, the number

732
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: of people over sixty, it's great to have their knowledge,

733
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: great to have their help, but they're not going to

734
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: be contributing to having children. So you need to think

735
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: about the number of reproductively aged individuals. And you need

736
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: to think a little bit about the mix of people.

737
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: So if you bring you know, ten thousand men, you

738
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: better also have artificial wounds or something at that point.

739
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: So you need to think about the makeup.

740
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: Well, dig into that for a moment for us, Like

741
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: what is it best gender ratio? I mean, because like

742
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: a woman can't be pregnant from two men simultaneously, but

743
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: a man can have multiple partners.

744
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: It depends on what your goal is, and frankly, it

745
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: depends on what your culture is willing to accept, because

746
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: I think you don't want to send people into interstellar

747
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: space under conditions that they would, you know, find abhorrent. Yes,

748
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: if your goal is to just have as many babies

749
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: as possible, and you've set up the interstellar ship to

750
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: be able to scale, to feed and provide oxygen for

751
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: a rapidly expanding population, then you could send exclusively women

752
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: who got pregnant using embryos that you sent with you.

753
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: There are ways to maximize the speed at which the

754
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: population increases, but I don't necessarily know that the goal

755
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: and root is going to be to increase numbers as

756
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: fast as possible, because if you just wanted to have

757
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people, you could have just started with

758
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: a lot more people. So I think you want to

759
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: find a makeup where you can sustain your population numbers,

760
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: and I don't necessarily know if the best way to

761
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: go is fifty to fifty.

762
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 2: Well, I think your point is a good one, though.

763
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: If you want your people to be happy, then you're

764
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: going to have to create an environment they're going to

765
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: like to live in. And currently most people enjoy monogamous

766
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: relationships or you know, one to one ratios, which means

767
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: you're going to need roughly a gender balance.

768
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: So I found an estimate where someone did a computer

769
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: simulation and they found that you could possibly get away

770
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: with ninety eight people.

771
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: If ninety eight thousand or ninety eight people.

772
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 1: Ninety eight individuals. What if every generation they mate it

773
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: with whoever a computer program told them to mate with

774
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: based on their genetic makeup. So this is an interesting

775
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: thought experiment for a lower bound but if you're thinking

776
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: about what humans are willing to accept, that's probably not

777
00:34:59,120 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: going to work out.

778
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: And for this study, how do they define success? You

779
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 2: have like a population downstream that's healthy and doesn't have

780
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: a lot of recessive traits that are hurting people.

781
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: I forget the exact details, but it was something like

782
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: after five generations, would you expect the population to still

783
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: persist or would they have had inbreeding problems or something

784
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: like that.

785
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: Well, it's really fascinating because I've heard some of these

786
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 2: studies that speculate the humanity might have had bottlenecks early on,

787
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 2: you know, down to like as many as ten thousand

788
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 2: individuals on the planet, and here we are, you know,

789
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: eight billion people later doing pretty well. So it's not

790
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 2: implausible to me that you could get down to a

791
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 2: few thousand. Ninety eight seems kind of crazy.

792
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: And there are plenty of people who will also point

793
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: out that there are indigenous peoples living in populations of

794
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: something like one hundred to five hundred. But what those

795
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: numbers often miss is that those indigenous populations are often

796
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: interacting with others and intermarrying, and so actually the population

797
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: that is interbreeding is much larger than the individual communities themselves.

798
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've I've seen estimates that seem pretty reasonable

799
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: that range from about five thousand to forty thousand people

800
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: of reproductive age. The forty thousand numbers seemed a little

801
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: bit more realistic to me. So it was taking into

802
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: account the ability to survive five generations even if a

803
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: black plague like catastrophe comes along. And so this is

804
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: incorporating like what if some bacteria in our gut mutate

805
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: and kills twenty five percent of us, Like you might

806
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: have to assume that every once in a while you're

807
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: going to lose people. So estimates range from ninety eight

808
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: to about forty thousand, and really depend on the assumptions

809
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: you're making well.

810
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: Keeping in mind our constraints. Even if money isn't an optical,

811
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: of course, in reality it is. And we know that

812
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: size is an issue and fuel and all that stuff,

813
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: and so if what we want to do is keep

814
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 2: the ship small, then we want to keep these numbers low.

815
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 2: And that was really interested in your comment about how

816
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 2: you could keep it down to around one hundred if

817
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 2: people accepted, you know, computer assigned dating. And I'm wondering

818
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: how far we could push that, Like, could we make

819
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: an even lower if we assume some sort of technology

820
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: to like modify your genetics or correct issues or something

821
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 2: that couldn't the interaction between biology and technology really change

822
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 2: how small we could go.

823
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: I hear a lot of engineers propose stuff like this,

824
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 1: and it totally makes sense. It's true, it could work,

825
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: But when ideas like this come like head to head

826
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: with human behavior, they tend to fall apart. I mean,

827
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: you could have five women who start the trip with

828
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: a vat of freeze dried sperm from lots of different people,

829
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: and you could maybe make it. But now you've got

830
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: problems with well, do you have enough doctors and enough

831
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: engineers and enough people to work the farm. So there's

832
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons why going big has a lot

833
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: of benefits.

834
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: I think it's funding the mental image of that of

835
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: freeze dried sperm. Why wouldn't you have them, you know,

836
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: like delicate test tubes, you know, imagining like you know,

837
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: liquid nitrogen flowing over them and something. Instead your words

838
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: give me a mental image of like a barrel of

839
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: the stuff.

840
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: You started this guy theme, and I was just kind

841
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: of running with it. But you're right, they'll probably be

842
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: in viles in a tube of liquid nitrogen or something

843
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, treat them better.

844
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: Delicately, clinking glasses and stuff like that.

845
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: That's right. Having technology to help with reproduction and bringing

846
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: along extra genetic diversity in the form of embryos, stuff

847
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: like this can really help with diversity problems. But again,

848
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: each generation you're going to have to deal with the

849
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: wants and desires of the humans who are there, who

850
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: are going to want to find partners that make them

851
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: feel complete, and who may or may not be comfortable

852
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: with being told, hey, your partner isn't as genetically diverse

853
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: as you might want. Sorry, this is what five generations

854
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: and an interstellarship does. So you are going to have

855
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: the embryo for which we provide fifty percent of the

856
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: genetic information, and not everybody is likely to love that.

857
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: And then what do you do when people get pregnant unintentionally?

858
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I think that's super fascinating and it touches

859
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: on another whole area of questions of like how you

860
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: manage the people on board, and what laws do you

861
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: have and what punishments can you do? Like you're shooting

862
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: people out the airlock if they're not being the right person.

863
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: It's crazy, But you know, on ships, the captains in

864
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: charge and for a reason. And so anyway, that's whole

865
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 2: other issue we could dig into another time of laws

866
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: on board interstellar trips. For now, let's take a break,

867
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 2: and when we come back, let's hear about a strategy

868
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 2: that might make that all moot. What if everybody just

869
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 2: sleeps their way to Alpha Centauri? All right, we're back,

870
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: and we are facing all the questions for taking humans

871
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 2: to another solar system. Radiation and gravity and greeding and

872
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: knowledge and all these things require keeping people awake, having

873
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 2: a functioning society on board, people sitting there munching on

874
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: their snacks and watching fast and furious. What if, Kelly,

875
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: we decide not to What if we just put everybody

876
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: out for the journey. What if we can freeze them

877
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 2: or hibernate them. You see this a lot in science fiction.

878
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: Is that realistic? Where is the technology now?

879
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: It's not realistic with current technology, But I wouldn't say

880
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: it's absolutely impossible. You can't just put everybody to sleep

881
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: as sleep is technically defined, because while you're sleeping, you

882
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: still have metabolic processes happening. You're still aging. So if

883
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: you were asleep, you'd still need to have like fluids

884
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: put in through an IV. You need to be fed.

885
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: Machines would have to roll you over. Sleeping wouldn't really

886
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: cut it.

887
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: It'd be like a coma, and nobody wants to be

888
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: in a coma for eighty thousand years, and you can't

889
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: live that long even in a coma, right. It doesn't

890
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: extend your life to sleep.

891
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: Right exactly. That's a total nonstarter. The next step up

892
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: from that would be hibernation. And so hibernation you have

893
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: a reduced temperature, you still have some metabolic stuff happening,

894
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: but the metabolic activity is way down, so like your

895
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: caloric needs go way down, you need less you're using

896
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: the restroom less stuff like that. And there's lots of

897
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: animals that hibernate. You know, You've got bear, squirrels, marmots,

898
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: prairie dogs, crowned hogs. Hibernation happens a lot, but it's

899
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: worth noting that one hibernation doesn't keep these animals alive forever,

900
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: and sometimes animals die well hibernating, so it's not like

901
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: you're one hundred percent safe when you go into a

902
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: hibernation state.

903
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: And can every animal hibernate? I mean bears and squirrels,

904
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 2: they do these things themselves, but like I've never hibernated.

905
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: Do humans hibernate?

906
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: I would like to hibernate sometimes when it's too cold out,

907
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: but no, humans do not hibernate. It's not clear how

908
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: we would put humans into a hibernation like state. It's

909
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: tantalizing that other mammals can do it, but it doesn't

910
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: necessarily mean that if we learned the right tricks, humans

911
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: could do it too. Humans do sometimes survive being very cold,

912
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: so like in a very hypothermic state, and every once

913
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 1: in a while if people have particular problems. So I've

914
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,959
Speaker 1: read about somebody who had rabies, and they were trying

915
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: to slow down the movement of rabies and give the

916
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: body some time to respond in the vaccine, some time

917
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 1: to work. And so they essentially put the person in

918
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: a very cold state to slow things down. And people

919
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: can survive, but it's not like it's great for the body,

920
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: and it's not like it's extending their lifetime. So you

921
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: would still end up with people dying in a hibernation state.

922
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 2: Probably all right, So we can't just knock people out

923
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: with nik will. We can't just turn down the temperature

924
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: a little bit so people get cold and hibernate. What

925
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 2: if we go even colder? What if we like dip

926
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: everyone in liquid helium and turn them into humansicles? Will

927
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: that help? Is that possible? I mean, you hear about

928
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: this all the time on science fiction and on the

929
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 2: Simpsons for example, or Futurama. I forget which one it is.

930
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: But is this just fictional nonsense or is the science

931
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: moving us in that direction?

932
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: Scientists are trying to move us in that direction, some

933
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: of them are. So there have been people who very

934
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: soon after they passed away, had their body cryogenically frozen

935
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: in the hopes that at some point will figure out

936
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: the cure for their disease, or figure out some way

937
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 1: to sort of wake them back up again, or figure

938
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: out some way to upload their brain to a computer

939
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: once we really understand brains, so that their consciousness or

940
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: something can be brought back to life.

941
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 2: Right, they freeze them after they die. Don't you need

942
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: to freeze them before they die, otherwise you're just thawing

943
00:42:59,600 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 2: a core.

944
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: I was under the impression that for ethical purposes, you

945
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: do it like as soon as they're dead, and then

946
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: hope you can find some way to get everything moving

947
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: again to undead them. I mean, you know, people's like

948
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: heart stops. You could say they're dead, but you can

949
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: get them kicking again as long as you do it quickly.

950
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 2: Interesting.

951
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:18,720
Speaker 1: I think that's the plant. But you know, if anybody

952
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: has like frozen people and want to tell us about it,

953
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: we'd love more information.

954
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: But it's call us at FBI dot gov.

955
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. Yes, I'm hoping that you had

956
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: permission and signed waivers and stuff first.

957
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 2: All right, but before we try this on humans, I

958
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: imagine we're going to test this onlike frogs or kittens

959
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: or something. How is that progressing?

960
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: Well, So, there are some animals that freeze naturally. So,

961
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 1: for example, there are some frogs in cold climates that

962
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: have something like anti freezing their blood. So the way

963
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: anti freezing your car works is it lets things get

964
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: a little bit colder without actually freezing. I think that

965
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: there's some combination of that happening and the cells also

966
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: using some additional mechanisms to make them robust to avoid

967
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: burst as water expands.

968
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is what's happening. I think for

969
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: frogs what's happening also is that, like they're producing some

970
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 2: substances and a freeze you say, which maybe prevents ice

971
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: crystals from forming, and so like basically, if you dope

972
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 2: water with this stuff, then its chemical properties change. And

973
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 2: I think it's so incredible that water has this bizarre

974
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 2: behavior that when it freezes, it gets larger. It's very unusual, right,

975
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: most things, when you freeze them, they get smaller. But

976
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: the fact that ice is less dense than water means fish,

977
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: for example, can survive in the lake right because the

978
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: ice is on the top rather than on the bottom.

979
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: But also means that if you freeze, you explode, So

980
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: it's this funny double edged sword of chemistry.

981
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: Well, I believe there are some fish in Antarctica who

982
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: can survive freezing also if they end up in that

983
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: like frozen layer of ice. So the point is there's

984
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 1: a variety of animals that can survive freezing, and while

985
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: humans at this point cannot survive freezing, maybe there's some

986
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: lessons that we can learn from these animals or from

987
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 1: Tartar grades, to try to figure out a way where

988
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: we could cryogenically preserve life people thaw them out and

989
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: bring them back to life. But it's worth noting that,

990
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: as far as I know, there's never been a frog,

991
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: for example, that was frozen for ten thousand years and

992
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: then brought back to life. You know, like we talked

993
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: about some tartar grades that managed to be frozen for

994
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: a very long time, but I think you know, when

995
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: you get to vertebrate level, it's even harder to survive

996
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: freezing for a very long time. So it's not clear

997
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: that cryogenics will be compatible with the human body, or

998
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: that it will be compatible with the human body on

999
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: the time scales needed to get to alpha centauri.

1000
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: It's too bad we don't have the biological technology of plants.

1001
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: You know, seeds are incredible. I read stories where they

1002
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 2: like dug up ancient seeds and like planted them and

1003
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: gave them water and they sprouted, and there's like, oh,

1004
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 2: here's a date palm whose parent grew like thousands of

1005
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: years ago and it just sat there it totally shelf

1006
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 2: stable for thousands of years. It's incredible biological technology. It's

1007
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 2: too bad we don't have seeds.

1008
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 4: You know.

1009
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: Trees make no sense to me. My husband has been

1010
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: gardening lately and he'll say things to me about like, oh, well,

1011
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: you can just cut that branch off and put it

1012
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: in the soil and you'll get a new tree. And

1013
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's not how life works. You can't do

1014
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: that to me. But it works with trees.

1015
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: I know. I remember saying to him, like, why can't

1016
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 2: I just stick my arm in the ground and grow

1017
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: a new person?

1018
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, trees are wild. And so some of

1019
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: the most sci fi ish plans I've come across involve

1020
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: things like having an artificial womb with freeze dried embryos

1021
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: that you send.

1022
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 2: With you because embryos we can freeze and revive.

1023
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 7: Right.

1024
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

1025
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: It is amazing. Yeah, and so I don't know that

1026
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: you can freeze them for eighty thousand years for the

1027
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: trip to Alpha Centauri, but you know, if you get

1028
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: there faster, and you can probably move much faster if

1029
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: you don't have squishy humans on board to worry about.

1030
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 2: Some of my best friends have two kids, and both

1031
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: of them came from frozen embryos. One kid is two

1032
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: years older, but they're actually the same age. It's just

1033
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 2: that one of them has been unfrozen for two more years.

1034
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 2: And I think about that every time I see these brothers.

1035
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, you guys are actually the same age. Just

1036
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 2: one of you was frozen for two years.

1037
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: That is amazing. Reproductive technology is incredible, the things that

1038
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: we're able to do.

1039
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're going to put this in the maybe

1040
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: category that we potentially could develop cryogenic technology that could

1041
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 2: freeze humans and unfreeze them after thousands of years. It's

1042
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: not clear how we would do it now, but you're

1043
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: not going to say it's impossible.

1044
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to put the cryogenic humans on the fairly

1045
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: unlikely Oh no, for the time frames necessary to get

1046
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: to Alpha Center. If you could get one of those

1047
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 1: propulsion techniques to get you there in like five years,

1048
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: and you just had to freeze people so they didn't

1049
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: get bored during the trip. Then maybe you could get

1050
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: away with that. But when you think about what else

1051
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: humans would need when you wake them up, it starts

1052
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: getting complicated. So you know, if those humans ever want

1053
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: to have a fresh egg, you also need to figure

1054
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: out a way to get the chickens going. You know,

1055
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: you also need to store the food for them. Like

1056
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: it gets incredibly complicated. But you know, maybe you could

1057
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: just bring a bunch of genetic material with you and

1058
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: have a lot of robots that start planting the farm.

1059
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: You know, a couple months before the humans are going

1060
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: to be gestated in the artificial womb, but now was

1061
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: going to raise them. Like, as a parent, it is

1062
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: amazing to me how much work it takes to get

1063
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: children to like just shower or brush their teeth. Like,

1064
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: there's so much nagging that needs to happen.

1065
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: You're out in the crowd and you look at all

1066
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: those people and you're like, wow, all these people were

1067
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: raised some parents like taught these humans how to survive

1068
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: and exist in a crowd, and like be functional, Like,

1069
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: that's so much work.

1070
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: Wow, it is. Yeah, culture is incredible. The fact that

1071
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: we've managed to get ourselves here by like policing each

1072
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: other's behaviors is fantastic.

1073
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: All right. Well, I see you struggling to not be

1074
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 2: the negative nelly and do not want to say no,

1075
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 2: it's impossible, but it seems like, yeah, pretty implausible.

1076
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: I would say within my lifetime, not gonna happen, right,

1077
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: But science often has breakthroughs that surprise me, and in

1078
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: a couple of lifetimes maybe it would happen.

1079
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 2: But the embryos and parental robots thing, that's a cultural issue, right.

1080
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 2: We think that technologically that might actually be possible. I mean,

1081
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 2: you might get weird humans that might kill all each other,

1082
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: or they might like launch nukes back at us or something.

1083
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 2: But in terms of like getting people to the other

1084
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 2: planet and growing them there, that could work.

1085
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: Right, It's possible that it could work. I mean, I

1086
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of things we don't understand very well.

1087
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: So for example, when babies are born through a mother's body,

1088
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: they get slathered in bacteria that are important for the

1089
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: way their bodies work. They get food to the bacteria

1090
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: in their guts from breast milk. I think we don't

1091
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: really understand what would happen to humans if they were

1092
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: raised by robots and only encountered other babies of a

1093
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: similar age or other people of a similar age. But

1094
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: somebody should write a sci fi novel about that.

1095
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: Or we should just do it and see what happens.

1096
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds totally ethical, totally all right.

1097
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 2: So it sounds like there's a lot of challenges to

1098
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 2: getting humans from here to Alpha Centauri. Even if you

1099
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 2: solved all the physics problems we raised in the last episode,

1100
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 2: there are a lot of biological problems, a lot of

1101
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,720
Speaker 2: cultural problems, a lot of technological problems to solve getting

1102
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: the humans there safely.

1103
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: Yes, and we didn't touch on a lot of the society,

1104
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 1: the all the ethical problems. There's a lot more stuff

1105
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: we could talk about. And also I recommend ed Regis's

1106
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: book Starbound, which is all about interstellar travel and some

1107
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: of the challenges that you encounter along the way. That

1108
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: was an interesting read.

1109
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 2: So if somebody wants to sell you a ticket to

1110
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: Alpha Centauri, we're going to officially recommend maybe.

1111
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, I would not buy that ticket, but I'm

1112
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: sure other people would, and I'm sure it would be

1113
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 1: an amazing experience.

1114
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hope you enjoy Fast and Furious Number

1115
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: seven hundred and forty two on your trip.

1116
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 1: Enjoy. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

1117
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,040
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1118
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,920
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1119
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: Extraordinary Universe.

1120
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,879
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1121
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,919
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1122
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: back to you.

1123
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

1124
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,239
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1125
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,399
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1126
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,319
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1127
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,360
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1128
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Speaker 1: and K Universe.

1129
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:10,960
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