WEBVTT - S1-E12: New Questions & Conspiracies 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:21.840 Diversion podcasts. In my daily life. It was quiet interpreted man, 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.759 not particularly from this moment onwards. Your name is Anton 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.600 Kunzla with the better stuff getting used to it. So 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.519 I left many of the Holoc provivors, and most of 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.000 them cannot trip it. When there was a knock of 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:38.120 the door, all the men line up outside in the 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:50.680 machine gun was I remember that the second over wins. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.920 Around that stage, my maigor was too tight against the 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:59.280 natural negus to abolish the statue of commentation in Germany. 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.440 I heard the names of the friends on the collaborators. 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.400 They used to come to the house chilly because he 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.280 was wearing a leather jacket and turned around over the 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.479 door at a pistol book that of his bad conn 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.280 knew these allegations. Nothing was ever done to bring him 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:22.800 to judge. I see a mountain and they see that. 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.200 In the end, the smell of the corps guided him 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.600 to the house j She had nightmares. As far as 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.320 I remember myself, there was not a single night of 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:40.480 the plast quie suspicious that nothing is wrong with this business. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:45.200 Mental pH of lower and life with the Brons for 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:53.640 Golden Future and excellent business. A few episodes ago. I 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.160 started asking listeners for questions. Things you didn't hear in 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.440 the podcast, and we're curious about or others worries. The 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.240 podcast got you thinking of many of your questions prompted 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.160 me to do new research, and I really liked that. 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.760 So I'm going to spend this entire episode answering your 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.600 questions and digging deeper into the issues that you brought up. 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.440 We've got some amazing questions from all over the world. 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.120 My name is Johannah and I'm listening from Toronto, Canada. Hi. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.919 My name is Mark Lazarus from Chicago, Illinois. Hi. My 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.200 name's rub Timmis Varion from Nitland in New South Wales, Australia. Hello, 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.560 I'm a theory I'm from b and I have some 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.359 of them were from families of Holocaust survivors. My grandmother 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:43.320 escaped Nazi Germany. For someone like me, history, specifically World 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.839 War Two and the Holocaust, in a sense, it's very 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.160 close to home. Hi. My name is Leah. I'm a 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.320 child of Holocaust survivors. My parents were teenagers when they 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.680 were in the camps. The sporadic nature of the butcher, 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.960 how he would just simply turn up and execute someone 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.959 that is in the story of what my grandpa tall. 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.400 It was a very similar experience, and a lot of 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.840 them made me think about aspects of Massad's Zuker's mission 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.680 that hadn't really occurred to me. Was this sort of 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:19.359 process or document used because of legal, judicial or massad 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:24.080 internal policy reasons? Did the Massad allow families of these 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:29.280 monsters to continue living in luxury? There was even one 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:31.680 from a guy who worked with the soldier with a 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.680 very shady past. Yeah, I met and worked with a 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.440 stocky German guy that I was told by the locals 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.960 had been a member of the s S. Over the 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:47.640 next few months, Unta and I became friends. So thanks 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.120 to everyone who emailed us. I really appreciate your interest. 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:04.400 I'm even talty and this as good Assassin's hunting the Butcher. 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.720 You made a comment that really just kind of sent 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.600 chills down my spine. My friends and I loved the podcast, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.720 and it has sparked a lot of debate amongst my friends. 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.440 I am just really curious to understand how people would 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:21.039 claim that he's innocent. I remember I literally posed the podcast, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.520 took off my headphones and I was just golf smacked. 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:27.200 Final those are cool, but I didn't think anything like 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.560 that happened in real life having discussions over family dinners. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:37.760 So it's been a great, great ride. Episode twelve new 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:47.320 questions and conspiracies, So onto your questions. The first one 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:54.240 comes from James mcinness. I'd like to know the background 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.360 of the family of the butcher. How did I time 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.480 believing with such a boy? Where they accepting what? Who 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.280 he want? What? Loving on this guy? Where the pride? 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.440 Where they just a general background of hound I grew 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:16.359 up this person. I was curious about the same thing James. 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.080 I did find one news article in a Latvian newspaper 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.080 from before the war. It talks about Suckers being arrested 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.720 for publicly whipping one of his sons, and it condemned 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.640 him for being so brutal to one of his own children. 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:33.760 There aren't a lot of details in the story, but 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:38.279 apparently he became angry at the boy and started beating him. 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.599 So it's clear Suckers had a serious temper, and the 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.080 article indicates was turned on his family at least once. 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.400 But to be fair, after his death, Zucker's family defended 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.520 him to the end. They did interviews in the Brazilian 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.800 press talking about his good qualities, how he was a 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.520 loving father and a patriot. They talked about pain of 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.040 his execution and how they felt an innocent man had 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:09.080 been targeted. It's clear that the assassination was a deeply 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.680 traumatic experience for them. So to answer your question as 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.080 best I can, I think his family did love him. 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.760 They were certainly very loyal to his memory for decades afterward. 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:29.720 I hope that answers the question onto the next one. Hi. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.080 My name is joh Hannah and I'm listening from Toronto, Canada. 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.080 My friends and I love the podcast and it has 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.400 sparked a lot of debate amongst my friend group, and 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:38.839 we've settled on two questions that we couldn't quite answer ourselves. 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.479 The first is did East Germany have a statute of 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.320 limitations for Nazi war crimes? The book in the podcast 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.479 focuses a lot on West Germany, and because my friends 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:49.120 and I are a bunch of history majors, we've read 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.640 a lot about Nazis having a place in Easterman government, 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:53.960 which kind of speaks to how denotification was attempted in 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.360 West Germany and top ranking officials had escaped it. Perhaps 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.600 to the d DR, Nazis having folks come US seats 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.960 very likely would influence Nazi legal standings. So did the 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.200 d DR have a statute or any punishment for Nazis 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.880 at all, and did that punishment have a time limit. 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.680 The second is if Musad had a presence noticeable or 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:16.200 not in East Germany, and if they tried to sway 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:21.200 Israeli DDR or really Israeli USSR relations through espionage. Thanks 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.560 so much. We're really enjoying the book as a group 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.760 right now and the podcast is fantastic. Thank you so much. 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:33.000 Abon karaj Hi Johanna, really good questions. Thanks. The East 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.920 German part of the story is really interesting. East Germany 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.800 was under the control of the Soviet Union at the time, 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.080 and their response to the Nazi question was often purely political. 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.680 They did not recognize the Statute of Limitations when it 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.040 came to Nazi crimes, and in fact, they played up 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:56.040 the failure of West Germany to prosecute Nazi atrocities that 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:00.880 had happened during the war. So the West German Statute 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:05.560 of Limitations became a weapon, a tool for East Germany 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.720 and the USSR. It was the Soviet Union's position that 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.280 they had been the key to defeating the Third Reich 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.800 and they had been far harsher on Nazi criminals than 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.960 governments in the West had been. There was truth in 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.720 both of those claims, and the USSR used that wedge 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:28.320 very effectively to embarrass the West. They claimed the moral 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.760 high ground when it came to x Nazis. They carried 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.400 out some show trials and would occasionally release the file 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.200 of an x Nazi living in the West who done 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.920 horrific things simply to gain an edge in the Cold War. 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.200 But after the fall of the Berlin Wall, it became 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.280 clear that East Germany hadn't been as forthcoming as it 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:55.520 could have been. Researchers found a huge number of files 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.880 on Nazi criminals that the East Germans had never released 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:03.200 for various reasons. Those files could have led to many 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:07.880 more prosecutions of killers and torturers. So even though East 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.280 Germany claimed to be the more righteous, it turned out 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.640 that they had just as many skeletons in the closet 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:18.480 as West Germany did. As far as Joanna's second question, 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.360 did Massad have any presence in East Germany, the answer 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:27.120 is little to none. The two countries never had diplomatic relations, 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:31.200 and they never exchanged ambassadors or maintained embassies in each 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:35.000 other's countries. Berlin was a hot spot for American and 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:39.040 British spies. That's where John Lecare's first novel was set, 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.680 but much less so for Massad. The main issue for 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.640 the Israelis was probably that East German politics were largely 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.280 being directed from Moscow, so why not do your spying 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.560 in Moscow? East Germany and the other satellites weren't where 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:58.000 the action was from Massad, they had much more pressing 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.400 issues to address than what was happening on both sides 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:09.000 of the Berlin Wall. Another question that arrived by email. Hi, 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.680 my name is Jason Friend from Virginia in the United States. 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.000 I have a question about MEO and other spies living 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.640 in Europe. How would they keep their cover in a 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:22.520 place like Paris without the French government knowing? Or did 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:27.680 they know? Yeah? Perceptive Jason. Let me start with the 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.560 second part and then work back. Basically, do countries know 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:35.720 that their allies are spying on them? They do? The 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.040 basic rule is that a spy living in a friendly 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.760 country is supposed to only have contact with his counterparts. 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:47.000 That means a CIA officer living in London is allowed 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.520 to have lunch with an officer from m I six, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.800 the British spy agency. They're also allowed to have joint 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:58.000 operations with friendly spy agencies that the two countries have 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.160 a similar objective in mind. They might partner up on 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.640 a mission. But that's where things are supposed to stop. 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:09.040 You're not supposed to conduct espionage on your allies, but 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:14.320 of course governments do all the time. Right now, my country, 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.239 the US is spying on several of our closest allies, 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:22.640 including France and Germany and the UK, and they're spying 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.319 on us. We want to know what our governments are 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:31.320 planning in counter terrorism, in technology and trade, not what 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:37.280 they're saying publicly, what they're actually planning on doing. Now, 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.199 as far as the first part of Jason's question, how 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.360 did MIO and the others operate in France? Often spies 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:48.319 work under the cover of a diplomatic mission. Embassies are 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.079 hotbeds for intelligence officers who have a fake title and 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.800 a fake job that allows them to spend most of 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:59.080 their time on espionage. But me and the others did 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.920 not have diplomat to cover. They were simply Israeli citizens 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.959 who had gotten visas to stay in Europe, so they 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.800 had to lie low, pretend to be ordinary business people 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.600 or visitors who loved Paris so much that they decided 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.880 to live there. Whether the French government knew about their activities, 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.679 that's a fascinating question. Most spy agencies direct their counter 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:26.079 intelligence efforts at their enemies. Keeping track of agents from 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:30.520 your allies isn't a top priority unless they screw up 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:34.839 in a spectacular way and embarrass themselves, or if they 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.960 steal a major military secret or piece of hardware. Then 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.920 all bets are off. Friends then have to act like enemies, 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.400 and spies are sometimes expelled from the country in question. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.480 My best guests is that your Eve and the others 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.640 kept their heads down, obeyed the laws of France, and 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.280 had basic covers as some kind of business men. France 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.400 had bigger fish to fry in the mid sixties. I 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.679 doubt they were overly concerned about a few massad agents 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.480 using Paris as a base of operations, so long as 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:11.440 they kept under the radar. The next question came in 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:16.079 by email from Garrett Davies. Hi, Stephen, I just had 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.000 a question regarding the statute of limitations in relation to Zookers, 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.320 which you may be able to shed some light on. 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.319 I was wondering why the German law would apply to 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.640 Zookers even though he was a Latvian citizen. Could he 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:34.520 still not have been prosecuted in his home country. That's 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.839 a great point. I've often wondered why Massad chose a 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.880 Latvian to go after instead of a German. After all, 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.800 it was the Third Reich that triggered the Holocaust, not 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.360 the Latvians, or the Lithuanians or the Poles. So why 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.800 target Zookers, a guy from this small country that didn't 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.040 play a big part in the war. In my research 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.320 into the possible targets for the mission, their nationality never 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.120 came up. It was always about two things, the seriousness 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.360 of their crimes and the ability of Massad to locate 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.800 them quickly. But I do think their nationality played a part. 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.120 Think about it. If Massad went and assassinated the German, 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.160 what would that have done to public opinion in Berlin 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:23.400 and elsewhere. Killing someone's countrymen, even if he's done horrible things, 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:28.120 is never popular. If Massad had assassinated a prominent German, 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.600 they probably would have doomed the mission. There would have 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.280 been a huge public backlash, and it would have affected 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.480 not only the Statute of Limitations, but a whole range 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:43.840 of issues between Germany and Israel, war reparations, trade, the 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.320 list goes on and on. My theory is that it 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.520 was just too dangerous, too counterproductive to go after a German. 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.320 The bad news for Sukers was that Latvia wasn't a 0:14:55.320 --> 0:15:00.400 powerful nation. In fact, after the Soviet annexation of the country, 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:06.200 Latvia didn't even exist in so the consequences for killing 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:10.160 a Latvian would be much less severe. You could illustrate 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.840 to Germans the kind of monsters that were still out 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:18.080 there without actually killing one of their citizens. Was the 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:34.720 best of both worlds. Hi, my name is Cameron. I'm 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.360 a big fan of the podcast. I actually got some 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.400 impatient following along that I ended up buying the book. 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.120 Mew and the team seemed to have a formalized judgment 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.120 document or speech or some sort of written piece that 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.400 they intend to read to Zookers at his execution. It's 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.600 betrayed as a sort of all encompassing legal document that 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.480 functions as the predetermined outcome. In opinion of judge Drury 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.880 into ex cutioner. Was this sort of process or document 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:07.800 used because of legal judicial or MASSAD internal policy reasons? 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.760 Who wrote the judgment? And at what point in the 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:15.080 government decision making process is this judgment made and written out? 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.480 Like did the high level government officials that named zookers 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.200 for execution? Right? This did Massad? Or did MEO or 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.360 yuive themselves? Right? It? Was this a common occurrence in 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.760 MASSAD operations or in government or state sponsored assassinations at 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.040 the time. Was it a formality or a requirement? And 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.680 was this done for non Nazi related MASSAD operations like 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.120 those against the plotters of the Munich Olympic attacks in 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.680 nineteen seventy two. Did the document have legal ramifications in Israeli, 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:50.880 Uruguayan or Brazilian international law? Thanks for any responses, Thanks Cameron. 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:53.880 I had never actually thought about that part of the mission, 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.800 and it's a tough one to answer. Massad is usually 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.200 a bit of a black box. It's very secretive as 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.639 our most by agencies, hard to tell who did what, 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.760 so I'm not sure who wrote the verdict. I suspect 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.040 it was someone at MASSAD, maybe even Joseph. Your Reeve 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.000 was the head of the unit carrying out the operation 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.600 and had the responsibility for all of its tactics. If 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:21.919 Meo had written the verdict, I think he would have 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.960 talked about it, so my guests, and it's only a 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.520 guess is that yr Reeve, as the team boss, sat 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.960 down and wrote it out. As to why, I think 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.720 it's clear it wasn't for legal reasons or judicial ones. 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.280 It certainly wasn't a Massad policy. In fact, I've never 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.680 heard of them doing this again in any of their 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:47.880 other operations. It was a combination of two things, clarity 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:52.080 and public relations. Massad knew the body was going to 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.760 be discovered. Of course, they wanted it to be discovered, 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.159 and they wanted it known that Zukers didn't die in 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.000 a business deal on wrong, that he wasn't the victim 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.760 of some home invasion or robbery. It was important for 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.520 the mission that Sucre's death retied clearly to his crimes. 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.880 The verdict would also serve as a warning to other 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:18.199 Nazi criminals. Massad wanted them to live in fear. The 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.080 second part was public relations. Massad knew that news about 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.800 the killing would be a sensation, and they wanted the 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.320 verdict to get into the news reports. The verdict was 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.639 really aimed at the German public. These were the man's 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.520 crimes carried out under the Nazi regime. Look at the 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.760 life Sucers was living, look at the atrocities he committed. 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.320 They were saying something's wrong here. Sucers and thousands of 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.679 others never faced a court of justice, and if the 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:51.000 statute passes, they never will. So it was intended to 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.120 jab at the conscience of Germans and other countries who 0:18:55.119 --> 0:19:14.640 could put pressure on Germany. Hi, my name is Mimi. 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.359 I'm from San Francisco, UM. I have a question about 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.399 something mentioned in one of the early episodes about the 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.840 Zookers having supporters. I am just really curious to understand 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:28.520 how people would claim that he's innocent with all the 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.359 testimonials from victims that you have and have shared, is 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:40.440 there any evidence pointing to innocence? Thanks by thanks me me. 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.480 I've had other people asked me about this, so I'm 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.879 glad you sent the question in. Those who support Herbert 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.840 seekers fall somewhere along the spectrum. I think there are 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.040 a few hardcore anti Semites and Holocaust deniers who see 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.560 the focus on perpetrators as being some kind of conspiracy. 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.240 There are let and nationalists who say that Suckers may 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.440 have done something during the war, but nothing has been proven, 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.560 and there are many people who say that Latvian suffering 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.960 before and after the war has never gotten equal time 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.080 with the Holocaust, So why should they spend time on 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.600 Sukers crimes when other crimes are being ignored. We talked 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:25.320 about this a bit in episode ten. I think the 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.720 big issue is the lack of a trial. Some supporters 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.919 brings up again and again they compare it to a 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:35.280 normal criminal case. We might have five or ten people 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:39.359 saying that a suspect committed a crime, but those witnesses 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:43.000 need to be interrogated, their timelines need to be examined, 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.600 and the suspects alibi needs to be checked out. It's 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.000 all the mechanics of due process that they feel are missing, 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.440 and that's what makes them stop short of calling him 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:58.800 a war criminal. There were some testimonies about Suckers that 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.600 were almost certainly adjurated. There are stories of him impaling 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.080 babies on his bayonet, and frankly, I don't believe that 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:10.200 ever happened. Those kinds of accounts do pop up here 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:14.960 and there among Holocaust survivors with human nature. I think 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.719 that's inevitable. A huge crime was committed and people want 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:23.000 to testify to how horrible it really was. For me, 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.600 the many testimonies that are authentic, along with the fact 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:31.880 that other commandos also acknowledged Suker's crimes and his behavior 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:35.679 after the war, makes me convinced that Sukers collaborated with 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:39.920 the Nazis and the murder of thousands of Jews. If 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.280 you've done the research as I have, the evidence is 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:53.440 just overwhelming. The next question comes to us from David 0:21:53.560 --> 0:22:00.399 Rochester in Surrey in the UK. My name is David 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:05.639 Rochester and I've been listening to your podcast, Hunting the Butcher. 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:10.400 I'm not finished it yet, almost don't want it to end. 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:15.439 It is just brilliant and so gripping and brutal at 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.800 the same time. But one of the things that I 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.439 would love to get a bit more background on is 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:25.280 the fact that when he went to South America he 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.359 had a young girl, a Jewish girl with him. What 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:34.879 happened to her, how and why was she there? But 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:40.080 more intriguing is a bit of background on his wife, 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:45.000 because the whole thing sounds a bit bizarre that he 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:48.840 could do that with his children and his wife and 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.360 his wife, Is there any background at all on on 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:58.200 the relationship because he was clearly a tough and I 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:02.840 would assume extremely brutal and individual. Um. So, so that's 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.000 really well. I would like to to hear a bit 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.639 more on so. Um. Thank you very much for a 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:15.000 fantastic podcast, and hopefully you will give me a response. 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:20.760 Thank you, bye bye. I can answer one part of 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:25.159 this question better than the other. Milda Zuker's wife is 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:28.280 a bit of a mystery. From all accounts, she was 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:32.080 a loyal and loving wife and at least publicly never 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:36.159 questioned what Suckers did. Neo and his brief mentions of 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:40.639 her and Zone Writings describes mild Suckers as somewhat timid 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.560 and not a strong character in the marriage. Maybe Sucker 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:48.680 scared her, or maybe she just loved him, maybe both, 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:53.439 We just don't know. As for Miriam, yeah, it's a 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:57.720 crazy story. After Zukers was exposed as a war criminal, 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.520 it seems that the two rarely oak. I heard that 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:04.600 her family didn't want her to be in touch with Suckers. 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.000 They didn't want her to get involved any deeper than 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:11.800 she already was. When I wrote my book The Good Assassin. 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.320 I did get in touch with Miriam's daughter, Helga, who 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:17.960 lived in the US at the time. She told me 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:21.120 that her mother rarely spoke about Suckers or the war, 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:24.360 and her guests was that it was just too painful. 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:29.239 Miriam lost many loved ones in the Holocaust and just 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:32.040 wanted to move on with her life. But one thing 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:35.200 is clear. When she was called upon by Jewish leaders 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:39.000 in Brazil, she backed up Sucre's story that he'd rescued 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:44.000 her during the war and had hit her from Nazi soldiers. Subsequently, 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:49.080 I uncovered an update to the story that's just wild. Helga, 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:53.320 Miriam's daughter, actually traveled back to Latvia in two thousand 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:57.880 nineteen to search for her family's history There. In Latvia, 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:02.040 she met with Suker's daughter Tonya and thanked the family 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:04.960 for saving her mother. She went up to the attic 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:08.399 in the Zuker's farmhouse where Miriam hid during the war years. 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:13.280 One day, a passer by apparently spotted Miriam looking out 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:18.720 the window. That sighting placed the Zookers in danger. If 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.520 the Nazis found out a Jewish girl was living there, 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:25.639 there'd beheld a pay. It probably wouldn't have mattered that 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:29.880 Zukers was working with Nazi troops either, So Zukers had 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:33.320 Miriam dye her hair blonde and passed her off as 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:37.200 a teacher who was instructing the Suckers children. That's how 0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:40.360 she made it through the war disguised as a gentile. 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:47.879 So it's complex. Miriam was clearly grateful to Zukers the 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:50.840 testimony of her being kept as a kind of sex slave. 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:54.879 She never addressed that publicly. It seems to me that 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:57.239 she chose to remember the good things that Zukers had 0:25:57.280 --> 0:25:59.719 done for her and to let the other stuff go. 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:16.440 It's a choice that many Holocaust survivors had to make. Hi. 0:26:16.600 --> 0:26:19.800 My name is Leah. I'm a child of Holocaust survivors. 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:23.840 My parents were teenagers when they were in the camps. 0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:29.400 My father actually escaped and became a partisan. The only 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:34.959 surviving member of either family was my maternal grandmother. So 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:40.880 my question is when they would hunt Nazis. A lot 0:26:40.920 --> 0:26:43.960 of these guys were able to stock away quite a 0:26:43.960 --> 0:26:48.280 bit of money from all the things they stole and looted, 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:53.800 and their families lived quite well. So I wondered did 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:59.600 the Massad allow the families of these monsters to continue 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:06.800 li in luxury, or were any of these things taken 0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:10.879 from them, or were the families touched in any way? 0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:15.040 Was there any retribution in taking out any of these 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:19.720 bastard's families. I guess that's a few questions. Thanks so 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:26.840 much and I love your podcast. Hi Lah, thanks for 0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:31.560 the question. The short answer is no, Massad didn't concern 0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:35.520 itself with recovering things stolen from Jewish families during the war. 0:27:36.440 --> 0:27:39.400 There were just too many other things that they identified 0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:43.560 as more urgent and that just wasn't their mission anyway. 0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:46.960