1 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: Diversion podcasts. In my daily life. It was quiet interpreted man, 2 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: not particularly from this moment onwards. Your name is Anton 3 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: Kunzla with the better stuff getting used to it. So 4 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: I left many of the Holoc provivors, and most of 5 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: them cannot trip it. When there was a knock of 6 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: the door, all the men line up outside in the 7 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: machine gun was I remember that the second over wins. 8 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: Around that stage, my maigor was too tight against the 9 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: natural negus to abolish the statue of commentation in Germany. 10 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: I heard the names of the friends on the collaborators. 11 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: They used to come to the house chilly because he 12 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: was wearing a leather jacket and turned around over the 13 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: door at a pistol book that of his bad conn 14 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: knew these allegations. Nothing was ever done to bring him 15 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: to judge. I see a mountain and they see that. 16 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: In the end, the smell of the corps guided him 17 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: to the house j She had nightmares. As far as 18 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: I remember myself, there was not a single night of 19 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: the plast quie suspicious that nothing is wrong with this business. 20 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: Mental pH of lower and life with the Brons for 21 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: Golden Future and excellent business. A few episodes ago. I 22 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: started asking listeners for questions. Things you didn't hear in 23 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: the podcast, and we're curious about or others worries. The 24 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: podcast got you thinking of many of your questions prompted 25 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: me to do new research, and I really liked that. 26 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: So I'm going to spend this entire episode answering your 27 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: questions and digging deeper into the issues that you brought up. 28 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: We've got some amazing questions from all over the world. 29 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: My name is Johannah and I'm listening from Toronto, Canada. Hi. 30 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: My name is Mark Lazarus from Chicago, Illinois. Hi. My 31 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: name's rub Timmis Varion from Nitland in New South Wales, Australia. Hello, 32 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: I'm a theory I'm from b and I have some 33 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: of them were from families of Holocaust survivors. My grandmother 34 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: escaped Nazi Germany. For someone like me, history, specifically World 35 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,839 Speaker 1: War Two and the Holocaust, in a sense, it's very 36 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: close to home. Hi. My name is Leah. I'm a 37 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: child of Holocaust survivors. My parents were teenagers when they 38 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: were in the camps. The sporadic nature of the butcher, 39 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: how he would just simply turn up and execute someone 40 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 1: that is in the story of what my grandpa tall. 41 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: It was a very similar experience, and a lot of 42 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: them made me think about aspects of Massad's Zuker's mission 43 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: that hadn't really occurred to me. Was this sort of 44 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: process or document used because of legal, judicial or massad 45 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: internal policy reasons? Did the Massad allow families of these 46 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: monsters to continue living in luxury? There was even one 47 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: from a guy who worked with the soldier with a 48 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: very shady past. Yeah, I met and worked with a 49 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: stocky German guy that I was told by the locals 50 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: had been a member of the s S. Over the 51 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: next few months, Unta and I became friends. So thanks 52 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: to everyone who emailed us. I really appreciate your interest. 53 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: I'm even talty and this as good Assassin's hunting the Butcher. 54 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: You made a comment that really just kind of sent 55 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: chills down my spine. My friends and I loved the podcast, 56 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: and it has sparked a lot of debate amongst my friends. 57 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: I am just really curious to understand how people would 58 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: claim that he's innocent. I remember I literally posed the podcast, 59 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: took off my headphones and I was just golf smacked. 60 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: Final those are cool, but I didn't think anything like 61 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: that happened in real life having discussions over family dinners. 62 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: So it's been a great, great ride. Episode twelve new 63 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: questions and conspiracies, So onto your questions. The first one 64 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: comes from James mcinness. I'd like to know the background 65 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: of the family of the butcher. How did I time 66 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: believing with such a boy? Where they accepting what? Who 67 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: he want? What? Loving on this guy? Where the pride? 68 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: Where they just a general background of hound I grew 69 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: up this person. I was curious about the same thing James. 70 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: I did find one news article in a Latvian newspaper 71 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: from before the war. It talks about Suckers being arrested 72 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: for publicly whipping one of his sons, and it condemned 73 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: him for being so brutal to one of his own children. 74 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: There aren't a lot of details in the story, but 75 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: apparently he became angry at the boy and started beating him. 76 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: So it's clear Suckers had a serious temper, and the 77 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: article indicates was turned on his family at least once. 78 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: But to be fair, after his death, Zucker's family defended 79 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: him to the end. They did interviews in the Brazilian 80 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: press talking about his good qualities, how he was a 81 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: loving father and a patriot. They talked about pain of 82 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: his execution and how they felt an innocent man had 83 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: been targeted. It's clear that the assassination was a deeply 84 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: traumatic experience for them. So to answer your question as 85 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: best I can, I think his family did love him. 86 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: They were certainly very loyal to his memory for decades afterward. 87 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: I hope that answers the question onto the next one. Hi. 88 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: My name is joh Hannah and I'm listening from Toronto, Canada. 89 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: My friends and I love the podcast and it has 90 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: sparked a lot of debate amongst my friend group, and 91 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: we've settled on two questions that we couldn't quite answer ourselves. 92 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: The first is did East Germany have a statute of 93 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: limitations for Nazi war crimes? The book in the podcast 94 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: focuses a lot on West Germany, and because my friends 95 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: and I are a bunch of history majors, we've read 96 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: a lot about Nazis having a place in Easterman government, 97 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: which kind of speaks to how denotification was attempted in 98 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: West Germany and top ranking officials had escaped it. Perhaps 99 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: to the d DR, Nazis having folks come US seats 100 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: very likely would influence Nazi legal standings. So did the 101 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: d DR have a statute or any punishment for Nazis 102 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: at all, and did that punishment have a time limit. 103 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: The second is if Musad had a presence noticeable or 104 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: not in East Germany, and if they tried to sway 105 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: Israeli DDR or really Israeli USSR relations through espionage. Thanks 106 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: so much. We're really enjoying the book as a group 107 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: right now and the podcast is fantastic. Thank you so much. 108 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: Abon karaj Hi Johanna, really good questions. Thanks. The East 109 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: German part of the story is really interesting. East Germany 110 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: was under the control of the Soviet Union at the time, 111 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: and their response to the Nazi question was often purely political. 112 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: They did not recognize the Statute of Limitations when it 113 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: came to Nazi crimes, and in fact, they played up 114 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: the failure of West Germany to prosecute Nazi atrocities that 115 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: had happened during the war. So the West German Statute 116 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: of Limitations became a weapon, a tool for East Germany 117 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: and the USSR. It was the Soviet Union's position that 118 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: they had been the key to defeating the Third Reich 119 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: and they had been far harsher on Nazi criminals than 120 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: governments in the West had been. There was truth in 121 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: both of those claims, and the USSR used that wedge 122 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: very effectively to embarrass the West. They claimed the moral 123 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: high ground when it came to x Nazis. They carried 124 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: out some show trials and would occasionally release the file 125 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: of an x Nazi living in the West who done 126 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: horrific things simply to gain an edge in the Cold War. 127 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: But after the fall of the Berlin Wall, it became 128 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: clear that East Germany hadn't been as forthcoming as it 129 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: could have been. Researchers found a huge number of files 130 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: on Nazi criminals that the East Germans had never released 131 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: for various reasons. Those files could have led to many 132 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: more prosecutions of killers and torturers. So even though East 133 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: Germany claimed to be the more righteous, it turned out 134 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: that they had just as many skeletons in the closet 135 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: as West Germany did. As far as Joanna's second question, 136 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: did Massad have any presence in East Germany, the answer 137 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: is little to none. The two countries never had diplomatic relations, 138 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: and they never exchanged ambassadors or maintained embassies in each 139 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: other's countries. Berlin was a hot spot for American and 140 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: British spies. That's where John Lecare's first novel was set, 141 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: but much less so for Massad. The main issue for 142 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: the Israelis was probably that East German politics were largely 143 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: being directed from Moscow, so why not do your spying 144 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: in Moscow? East Germany and the other satellites weren't where 145 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: the action was from Massad, they had much more pressing 146 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: issues to address than what was happening on both sides 147 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: of the Berlin Wall. Another question that arrived by email. Hi, 148 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: my name is Jason Friend from Virginia in the United States. 149 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: I have a question about MEO and other spies living 150 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: in Europe. How would they keep their cover in a 151 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: place like Paris without the French government knowing? Or did 152 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: they know? Yeah? Perceptive Jason. Let me start with the 153 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: second part and then work back. Basically, do countries know 154 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: that their allies are spying on them? They do? The 155 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: basic rule is that a spy living in a friendly 156 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: country is supposed to only have contact with his counterparts. 157 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: That means a CIA officer living in London is allowed 158 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: to have lunch with an officer from m I six, 159 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: the British spy agency. They're also allowed to have joint 160 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: operations with friendly spy agencies that the two countries have 161 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: a similar objective in mind. They might partner up on 162 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: a mission. But that's where things are supposed to stop. 163 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: You're not supposed to conduct espionage on your allies, but 164 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: of course governments do all the time. Right now, my country, 165 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,239 Speaker 1: the US is spying on several of our closest allies, 166 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: including France and Germany and the UK, and they're spying 167 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: on us. We want to know what our governments are 168 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: planning in counter terrorism, in technology and trade, not what 169 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: they're saying publicly, what they're actually planning on doing. Now, 170 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: as far as the first part of Jason's question, how 171 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: did MIO and the others operate in France? Often spies 172 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: work under the cover of a diplomatic mission. Embassies are 173 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: hotbeds for intelligence officers who have a fake title and 174 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: a fake job that allows them to spend most of 175 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: their time on espionage. But me and the others did 176 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: not have diplomat to cover. They were simply Israeli citizens 177 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: who had gotten visas to stay in Europe, so they 178 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: had to lie low, pretend to be ordinary business people 179 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: or visitors who loved Paris so much that they decided 180 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: to live there. Whether the French government knew about their activities, 181 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: that's a fascinating question. Most spy agencies direct their counter 182 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: intelligence efforts at their enemies. Keeping track of agents from 183 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: your allies isn't a top priority unless they screw up 184 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: in a spectacular way and embarrass themselves, or if they 185 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: steal a major military secret or piece of hardware. Then 186 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: all bets are off. Friends then have to act like enemies, 187 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: and spies are sometimes expelled from the country in question. 188 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: My best guests is that your Eve and the others 189 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: kept their heads down, obeyed the laws of France, and 190 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: had basic covers as some kind of business men. France 191 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: had bigger fish to fry in the mid sixties. I 192 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: doubt they were overly concerned about a few massad agents 193 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: using Paris as a base of operations, so long as 194 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: they kept under the radar. The next question came in 195 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: by email from Garrett Davies. Hi, Stephen, I just had 196 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: a question regarding the statute of limitations in relation to Zookers, 197 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: which you may be able to shed some light on. 198 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: I was wondering why the German law would apply to 199 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: Zookers even though he was a Latvian citizen. Could he 200 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: still not have been prosecuted in his home country. That's 201 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: a great point. I've often wondered why Massad chose a 202 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: Latvian to go after instead of a German. After all, 203 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: it was the Third Reich that triggered the Holocaust, not 204 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: the Latvians, or the Lithuanians or the Poles. So why 205 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: target Zookers, a guy from this small country that didn't 206 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: play a big part in the war. In my research 207 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: into the possible targets for the mission, their nationality never 208 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: came up. It was always about two things, the seriousness 209 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: of their crimes and the ability of Massad to locate 210 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: them quickly. But I do think their nationality played a part. 211 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: Think about it. If Massad went and assassinated the German, 212 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: what would that have done to public opinion in Berlin 213 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: and elsewhere. Killing someone's countrymen, even if he's done horrible things, 214 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: is never popular. If Massad had assassinated a prominent German, 215 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: they probably would have doomed the mission. There would have 216 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: been a huge public backlash, and it would have affected 217 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: not only the Statute of Limitations, but a whole range 218 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: of issues between Germany and Israel, war reparations, trade, the 219 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: list goes on and on. My theory is that it 220 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: was just too dangerous, too counterproductive to go after a German. 221 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: The bad news for Sukers was that Latvia wasn't a 222 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: powerful nation. In fact, after the Soviet annexation of the country, 223 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: Latvia didn't even exist in so the consequences for killing 224 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: a Latvian would be much less severe. You could illustrate 225 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: to Germans the kind of monsters that were still out 226 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: there without actually killing one of their citizens. Was the 227 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: best of both worlds. Hi, my name is Cameron. I'm 228 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: a big fan of the podcast. I actually got some 229 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: impatient following along that I ended up buying the book. 230 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: Mew and the team seemed to have a formalized judgment 231 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: document or speech or some sort of written piece that 232 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: they intend to read to Zookers at his execution. It's 233 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: betrayed as a sort of all encompassing legal document that 234 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: functions as the predetermined outcome. In opinion of judge Drury 235 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: into ex cutioner. Was this sort of process or document 236 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: used because of legal judicial or MASSAD internal policy reasons? 237 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: Who wrote the judgment? And at what point in the 238 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: government decision making process is this judgment made and written out? 239 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: Like did the high level government officials that named zookers 240 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: for execution? Right? This did Massad? Or did MEO or 241 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: yuive themselves? Right? It? Was this a common occurrence in 242 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: MASSAD operations or in government or state sponsored assassinations at 243 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: the time. Was it a formality or a requirement? And 244 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: was this done for non Nazi related MASSAD operations like 245 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: those against the plotters of the Munich Olympic attacks in 246 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. Did the document have legal ramifications in Israeli, 247 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: Uruguayan or Brazilian international law? Thanks for any responses, Thanks Cameron. 248 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: I had never actually thought about that part of the mission, 249 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: and it's a tough one to answer. Massad is usually 250 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: a bit of a black box. It's very secretive as 251 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: our most by agencies, hard to tell who did what, 252 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: so I'm not sure who wrote the verdict. I suspect 253 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: it was someone at MASSAD, maybe even Joseph. Your Reeve 254 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: was the head of the unit carrying out the operation 255 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: and had the responsibility for all of its tactics. If 256 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: Meo had written the verdict, I think he would have 257 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: talked about it, so my guests, and it's only a 258 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: guess is that yr Reeve, as the team boss, sat 259 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: down and wrote it out. As to why, I think 260 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: it's clear it wasn't for legal reasons or judicial ones. 261 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: It certainly wasn't a Massad policy. In fact, I've never 262 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: heard of them doing this again in any of their 263 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: other operations. It was a combination of two things, clarity 264 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: and public relations. Massad knew the body was going to 265 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: be discovered. Of course, they wanted it to be discovered, 266 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: and they wanted it known that Zukers didn't die in 267 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: a business deal on wrong, that he wasn't the victim 268 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: of some home invasion or robbery. It was important for 269 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: the mission that Sucre's death retied clearly to his crimes. 270 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: The verdict would also serve as a warning to other 271 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: Nazi criminals. Massad wanted them to live in fear. The 272 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: second part was public relations. Massad knew that news about 273 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: the killing would be a sensation, and they wanted the 274 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: verdict to get into the news reports. The verdict was 275 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: really aimed at the German public. These were the man's 276 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: crimes carried out under the Nazi regime. Look at the 277 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: life Sucers was living, look at the atrocities he committed. 278 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: They were saying something's wrong here. Sucers and thousands of 279 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: others never faced a court of justice, and if the 280 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: statute passes, they never will. So it was intended to 281 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: jab at the conscience of Germans and other countries who 282 00:18:55,119 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: could put pressure on Germany. Hi, my name is Mimi. 283 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: I'm from San Francisco, UM. I have a question about 284 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: something mentioned in one of the early episodes about the 285 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: Zookers having supporters. I am just really curious to understand 286 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: how people would claim that he's innocent with all the 287 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: testimonials from victims that you have and have shared, is 288 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: there any evidence pointing to innocence? Thanks by thanks me me. 289 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: I've had other people asked me about this, so I'm 290 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: glad you sent the question in. Those who support Herbert 291 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: seekers fall somewhere along the spectrum. I think there are 292 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: a few hardcore anti Semites and Holocaust deniers who see 293 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: the focus on perpetrators as being some kind of conspiracy. 294 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: There are let and nationalists who say that Suckers may 295 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: have done something during the war, but nothing has been proven, 296 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: and there are many people who say that Latvian suffering 297 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: before and after the war has never gotten equal time 298 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: with the Holocaust, So why should they spend time on 299 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: Sukers crimes when other crimes are being ignored. We talked 300 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: about this a bit in episode ten. I think the 301 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: big issue is the lack of a trial. Some supporters 302 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: brings up again and again they compare it to a 303 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: normal criminal case. We might have five or ten people 304 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: saying that a suspect committed a crime, but those witnesses 305 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: need to be interrogated, their timelines need to be examined, 306 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: and the suspects alibi needs to be checked out. It's 307 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: all the mechanics of due process that they feel are missing, 308 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: and that's what makes them stop short of calling him 309 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: a war criminal. There were some testimonies about Suckers that 310 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: were almost certainly adjurated. There are stories of him impaling 311 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: babies on his bayonet, and frankly, I don't believe that 312 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: ever happened. Those kinds of accounts do pop up here 313 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: and there among Holocaust survivors with human nature. I think 314 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 1: that's inevitable. A huge crime was committed and people want 315 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: to testify to how horrible it really was. For me, 316 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: the many testimonies that are authentic, along with the fact 317 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: that other commandos also acknowledged Suker's crimes and his behavior 318 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 1: after the war, makes me convinced that Sukers collaborated with 319 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: the Nazis and the murder of thousands of Jews. If 320 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: you've done the research as I have, the evidence is 321 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: just overwhelming. The next question comes to us from David 322 00:21:53,560 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: Rochester in Surrey in the UK. My name is David 323 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: Rochester and I've been listening to your podcast, Hunting the Butcher. 324 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: I'm not finished it yet, almost don't want it to end. 325 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: It is just brilliant and so gripping and brutal at 326 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: the same time. But one of the things that I 327 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: would love to get a bit more background on is 328 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: the fact that when he went to South America he 329 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: had a young girl, a Jewish girl with him. What 330 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: happened to her, how and why was she there? But 331 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: more intriguing is a bit of background on his wife, 332 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: because the whole thing sounds a bit bizarre that he 333 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: could do that with his children and his wife and 334 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: his wife, Is there any background at all on on 335 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: the relationship because he was clearly a tough and I 336 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: would assume extremely brutal and individual. Um. So, so that's 337 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: really well. I would like to to hear a bit 338 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: more on so. Um. Thank you very much for a 339 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: fantastic podcast, and hopefully you will give me a response. 340 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: Thank you, bye bye. I can answer one part of 341 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: this question better than the other. Milda Zuker's wife is 342 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: a bit of a mystery. From all accounts, she was 343 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: a loyal and loving wife and at least publicly never 344 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: questioned what Suckers did. Neo and his brief mentions of 345 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: her and Zone Writings describes mild Suckers as somewhat timid 346 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: and not a strong character in the marriage. Maybe Sucker 347 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: scared her, or maybe she just loved him, maybe both, 348 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: We just don't know. As for Miriam, yeah, it's a 349 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: crazy story. After Zukers was exposed as a war criminal, 350 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: it seems that the two rarely oak. I heard that 351 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: her family didn't want her to be in touch with Suckers. 352 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: They didn't want her to get involved any deeper than 353 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: she already was. When I wrote my book The Good Assassin. 354 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: I did get in touch with Miriam's daughter, Helga, who 355 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: lived in the US at the time. She told me 356 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: that her mother rarely spoke about Suckers or the war, 357 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: and her guests was that it was just too painful. 358 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,239 Speaker 1: Miriam lost many loved ones in the Holocaust and just 359 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: wanted to move on with her life. But one thing 360 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: is clear. When she was called upon by Jewish leaders 361 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: in Brazil, she backed up Sucre's story that he'd rescued 362 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: her during the war and had hit her from Nazi soldiers. Subsequently, 363 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: I uncovered an update to the story that's just wild. Helga, 364 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: Miriam's daughter, actually traveled back to Latvia in two thousand 365 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: nineteen to search for her family's history There. In Latvia, 366 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: she met with Suker's daughter Tonya and thanked the family 367 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: for saving her mother. She went up to the attic 368 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: in the Zuker's farmhouse where Miriam hid during the war years. 369 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: One day, a passer by apparently spotted Miriam looking out 370 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: the window. That sighting placed the Zookers in danger. If 371 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: the Nazis found out a Jewish girl was living there, 372 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: there'd beheld a pay. It probably wouldn't have mattered that 373 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: Zukers was working with Nazi troops either, So Zukers had 374 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: Miriam dye her hair blonde and passed her off as 375 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: a teacher who was instructing the Suckers children. That's how 376 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: she made it through the war disguised as a gentile. 377 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: So it's complex. Miriam was clearly grateful to Zukers the 378 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: testimony of her being kept as a kind of sex slave. 379 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: She never addressed that publicly. It seems to me that 380 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,239 Speaker 1: she chose to remember the good things that Zukers had 381 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 1: done for her and to let the other stuff go. 382 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: It's a choice that many Holocaust survivors had to make. Hi. 383 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: My name is Leah. I'm a child of Holocaust survivors. 384 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: My parents were teenagers when they were in the camps. 385 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: My father actually escaped and became a partisan. The only 386 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,959 Speaker 1: surviving member of either family was my maternal grandmother. So 387 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: my question is when they would hunt Nazis. A lot 388 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: of these guys were able to stock away quite a 389 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: bit of money from all the things they stole and looted, 390 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: and their families lived quite well. So I wondered did 391 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: the Massad allow the families of these monsters to continue 392 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: li in luxury, or were any of these things taken 393 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: from them, or were the families touched in any way? 394 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: Was there any retribution in taking out any of these 395 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: bastard's families. I guess that's a few questions. Thanks so 396 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: much and I love your podcast. Hi Lah, thanks for 397 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: the question. The short answer is no, Massad didn't concern 398 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: itself with recovering things stolen from Jewish families during the war. 399 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: There were just too many other things that they identified 400 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: as more urgent and that just wasn't their mission anyway. 401 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that ex Nazis always kept the 402 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: things that they stole from Jewish victims. That part of 403 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,719 Speaker 1: the Holocaust story has been left to the lawyers. There 404 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: have been many cases of Jewish survivors or their families 405 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: going to court to recover paintings or home or other valuables. 406 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: It often takes years, if not decades, but many survivors 407 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: have won their cases and gotten back art with many millions. 408 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: But of course there are thousands of cases that were 409 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: never pursued, and we're justice never had a chance to prevail. 410 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: The next and last question is fascinating. Give it a listen. 411 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: In the mid nineteen seventies, I was a young English 412 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: engineer working for the Algerian National Oil Industry sound a 413 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: track at skeet to Algeria. There I met and worked 414 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: with a stocky German guy that I was told by 415 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: the locals had been a member of the s S. Gunta, 416 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: who was in his early sixties, had a scar on 417 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: the under side of his left arm, and after working 418 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: with him for a few weeks, he confirmed to me 419 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: that he had in fact been a member of the 420 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: s S and at the end of the war he 421 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: had joined the French Foreign Legion and had been based 422 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: in Algeria. After an unspecified term of service, Gunta had 423 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: been given a new identity by France and could live 424 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: a normal life. Over the next few months, Gunta and 425 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: I became friends, although he refused to discuss his earlier life. 426 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: My question is is it true France offered s S 427 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: and other war criminals immunity from prosecution in return for 428 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: the service in the French Foreign Legion. I'd actually never 429 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: heard about this, so I had to do a little digging, 430 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: and it appears that Gunter just might have been telling 431 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: the truth. Here's two things I learned in my research. 432 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: The French Foreign Legion has always been popular with Germans 433 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: for reasons too complex to go into here. In fact, 434 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: a lot of Germans joined the French Foreign Legion before 435 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: and during World War Two and actually went off to 436 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: fight the Nazis in North Africa. Because of this, books 437 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: about the Legion were burned in German cities and towns, 438 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: and the Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels even announced that 439 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: young German men were being hypnotized into joining crazy. I 440 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 1: had no idea that this ever happened. The second thing 441 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: I learned until quite recently, the Legion didn't require you 442 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: to reveal your identity when you joined up. You didn't 443 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: have to give your real name, your real nationality, or 444 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: provide any papers at all about your background. The Legion, 445 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: of course, became a destination for men running away from 446 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: all kinds of things, bad marriages, horrible crimes, even genocide. 447 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: So it's highly possible that Gunter, looking for a way 448 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: out to avoid prosecution, joined the Legion under a fake name. 449 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: One statistic I saw in my research about the men 450 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: in the Legion from to nineteen fifty four had German roots, 451 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: most of them to fight for France in the First 452 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: Into China War. In Vietnam, over seventy two thousand legionnaires 453 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: fought under the French flag and over ten thousand of 454 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: them were killed there. So here's what might have happened. 455 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: Gunter was an s S member who needed a new life. 456 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: He joins the Legion after v E Day, and most 457 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: likely he gets sent to Vietnam. He serves there under 458 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: an assumed name, fighting for French interests, and after a 459 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: period of three years, any member of the Legion is 460 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: eligible to apply for French citizenship. That's the law. If 461 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: Gunter performed well, he would easily have gotten a residency 462 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: permit and then full nationality. So if Gunter was telling 463 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: the truth, it would be going too far to say 464 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: that France recruited him and gave him a new identity. 465 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: But it's likely that he joined the Legion under a 466 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: fake name and eventually was able to become a French citizen. 467 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: With no record of his past on the books, Gunter 468 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: found a way to watch his record clean. He escaped 469 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: responsibility the terrible things he probably did during the war. 470 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: All it took, most likely was risking his life and 471 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: another deadly conflict. Half a world away from home, Zookers 472 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: chose an easier route. He went to Brazil, water skied 473 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: and built a business. He too, came very close to 474 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: escaping his past. If it hadn't been for the handful 475 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: of men and women that you've met in this series, 476 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: I really think he would have gotten away with it. 477 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: I love the show, really, really fantastic. I just have 478 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: to know, are you guys doing another season? I love 479 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: for you guys to make a season two, and I 480 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: think it'd be cool with you guys did it in 481 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War era, just because my grandpa wasn't the war. 482 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely love if you did a season two. Season one 483 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: was so engaging, so awesome. One question that I keep 484 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: hearing is will there be a season two of Good 485 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: Assassins and what will it be about. The answers are yes, 486 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure yet. We're looking at a few 487 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: espionage operations that have always intrigued me, but we want 488 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: to find something that's just as suspenseful and complex as 489 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: Meal's operation, and then we'll do the kind of deep 490 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: dive that you guys seem to appreciate. So there will 491 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: definitely be a season two of the Good Assassin's podcast, 492 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: and you should look out for it some time later 493 00:33:53,440 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: in the year. So that's it for now. I really 494 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed listening to Good Assassins Season one as 495 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: much as I enjoyed making it. If we get more 496 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: questions in, I'll be happy to answer them in a 497 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,919 Speaker 1: future episode, and I hope you'll keep an eye out 498 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: for more spies and more Cloak and Dagger in season two. 499 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: Good Assassins. Hunting the Butcher is a production of Diversion 500 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. This season is 501 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: written and hosted by Stephen Talti, produced and directed by 502 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: Scott Waxman and Jacob Bronstein. Executive producers Scott Waxman and 503 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: Mark Francis, Story editing by Jacob Bronstein, Theme music by 504 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: Tyler Cash, Archival research by Adam Shapiro. Thanks to Oran 505 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: Rosenbaum at U t A.