1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Body doors, but Joseph's gotten more. I can speak for myself, 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: and maybe other fathers I don't know, but I can 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: speak for myself. Whatever success that I have achieved in 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: this old world, throughout the life that I've been given 5 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: is it's great. You know, I'm very thankful for the 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: opportunities I've had. But you know what, that one thing 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: that remains steadfast in my mind is that I want 8 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: my kids to do better than I did. You just 9 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: I think that it's just a natural thing that you have. 10 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: My son is literally in his last year of undergraduate 11 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: right now, and I couldn't be more proud of him 12 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: because I know that he's going to accomp plus great things. 13 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: I just know what I feel it. And you know, 14 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: you try to help them, you try to advise them, 15 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: and you get to a point where your kids where 16 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: you stop being a parent many times and you become friends. 17 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 1: You don't want to be friends with them when they're young. 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: You need to be a parent. But I'm hitting that 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: stride with my son right now. And you know, today 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: I want to talk about a friendship that existed between 21 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: a father and a son, and you could really when 22 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: you're going to know who I'm talking about pretty quickly here. 23 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: When you see these two together, when you see the 24 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: images of them, there was a genuine love and I 25 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: think a genuine friendship. Today we're going to revisit a 26 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: case from many years ago that has suddenly popped back 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: up in the news, and it is the murder of 28 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: James Jordan, of course, the father of arguably the greatest 29 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: basketball player that ever laced on a pair of air. 30 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: Jordan's Michael Jordan. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is 31 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: body backs David. I look at I look at my 32 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: son Noah Kim and I both do. We look at him, 33 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: and we look at our daughter, who has you know, 34 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: blessed us with two beautiful grandkids. And life is good. 35 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: You know, it really is you. You know you you 36 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: sit there and you do truly hope that, uh, whatever 37 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: the future holds, they're gonna they're gonna match you and 38 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: exceed you. You know, no matter what, that's what you 39 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: want for your kids. I don't know how you feel 40 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: about that statement, but I certainly do. You know, you 41 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: spend so much time just trying to get them to survive, 42 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: and you know, to make sure that they're guided through everything. 43 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: But then when you begin to see these grand accomplishments, 44 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: you know it it's reassuring, I think for an old parent, 45 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's reassuring that they're gonna they're gonna be 46 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: able to get out there and do those things they 47 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: have to do to make it make their way in 48 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: this world. 49 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: When you look at James Jordan and his influence, no 50 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: matter what, when you look at Michael Jordan from the 51 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: day he's drafted by the Chicago Bulls to the time 52 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: where they beat the Phoenix Suns in nineteen ninety three 53 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: for their first three peat, James Jordan was right there 54 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: by his side. He was right the way. 55 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 56 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: And the story was always that when James Jordan would 57 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: be in the gym i haead A, you know, before 58 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: a game, and he would see some kid, you know, 59 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: just so he didn't know him, but he would see 60 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: him and know that this child, you know, it would 61 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: make their work to meet Michael Jordan, and James would 62 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: just find his way, get the kid, invite him back 63 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: and introduce him to his son. And Michael would always 64 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 2: take the time because he knew that was what James 65 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: Jordan could do for somebody else. And you know, that's 66 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: a little thing, but it means a lot. Can you 67 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: imagine being an eight year old kid, No, and meeting 68 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: the most famous man on the planet, Yeah, and watching 69 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 2: him be deferential to his father. What an impact boys, 70 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 2: James Jordan. 71 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: Was, Yeah, and with him every step you mentioned. And 72 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: this was kind of a very poignant moment for me. 73 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: I still remember the photograph that moment frozen in time 74 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:51,119 Speaker 1: when they beat Phoenix and James is right at Michael's side, 75 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: he is celebrating. They're holding that trophy, you know, and 76 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: how many times have we seen images of Michael Jordan 77 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: holding a trophy? And holding a trophy celebrating a victory 78 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: is one thing, but when you got folks around you, 79 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: I'm talking about teammates. I'm not talking about old coaches. 80 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: I'm talking about people that actually love you and they're 81 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: there with you. What an exalted position to be in. 82 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's something that you would never 83 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,119 Speaker 1: you would never forget. And look, you know, Michael Jordan 84 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: has always not always I don't want to make it 85 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: sound that way, but let's face it, he through his 86 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: hard work and the hard work of his parents, He's 87 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: had the world at his feet. I mean, he really has. 88 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: He has access to things that you and I can't 89 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: even begin to fathom. But and even at that period 90 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: of time back there in ninety three, he had everything. 91 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, he was the most famous 92 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: man in the world. But yet there's his daddy glowing 93 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: right there beside him, and he didn't seem like a 94 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: kind of guy that wanted to jump out front. I 95 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: remember a few years ago there was this whole family 96 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: of ballplayers out in California. I remember, you remember this, 97 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: and the name escapes me. I'm sure some of our 98 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: friends will know. And their dad was always promoting all 99 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: these brothers, and it was just a total train wreck, 100 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, the disruption and locker rooms and everything else. 101 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: James Jordan wasn't that way. He's a military guy, had 102 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: been in the Air Force. He had struggled, you know, 103 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: to make ends meet, went to tech school on the 104 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: GI Bill to learn how to work with hydraulics of 105 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: all things. Moved his family from North this southern guy 106 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: that moves his family, I think, to New York so 107 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: he can attend a trade school up there in order 108 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: to learn the skill. Then they went back, you know, 109 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: went back to North Carolina where they were all from. 110 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: And you know, you see that and you know that 111 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: these are salt of the earth kind of people. He's 112 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: probably a man that you know what he said, he meant, 113 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: you know, he didn't need anything else to back it up. 114 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: And he was the air Force. So even you know, 115 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: in the dark Toms and then certainly even in these 116 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: these grand times of winning these NBA Championships, what a 117 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: what a relationship? 118 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: I will tell you if you have a chance to 119 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: watch the documentary it's on Netflix called The Last Dance. 120 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: Oh boy, yeah, it. 121 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: Actually it's a phenomenal documentary on basketball in general, but 122 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: specifically Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls. And you know, 123 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: a team three peating winning the NBA Championship three years 124 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: in a row, big deal and they yeah, and the 125 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: fact that that's they won that by beating Phoenix in 126 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: Game six June twentieth, nineteen ninety three. On July twenty third, 127 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three, James Jordan went missing, a month after 128 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: hoisting the Larry O'Brien Trophy with his son. James Jordan 129 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: had been at the funeral for a friend in Wilmington, 130 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: North Carolina. Had been golfing and was on his way 131 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: back to Chicago when family lost contact with him. The 132 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: story is that James Jordan the family didn't get immediately 133 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: worried because James oftentimes would say I'll be back on Tuesday, 134 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: and you know, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, hed come rolling into 135 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: town because he hung up with a couple of friends. 136 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: They played some golf or whatever, so they weren't immediately 137 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: freaking out, where's dad. July twenty third, it wasn't an 138 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: immediate you know, flags blazing. But after a few days, 139 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 2: I think Michael Jordan on the in the last dance 140 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: said that even when James was away, he maintained contact 141 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: with his wife. There was there was always she always 142 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: knew where he was. And it had been more days 143 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: than that, more than they had ever had before, and 144 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: they began to get concerned. They being Dolores, Michael, and 145 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: their extended family can't find James. I remember the reports. 146 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: You've got the world's most famous man at the time 147 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 2: and his dad's missing. So there was coverage of this, 148 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 2: and between July twenty third and early August, nationwide attention 149 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: is growing for James Shorten. Beyond the lookout for this Lexus, 150 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: it's a nineteen ninety six Lexus or a ninety three 151 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: Lexus rather, and had a very special license plate tag 152 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: u NC zero zero two to three. That would be 153 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: Michael Jordan's number twenty three UNC University of North Carolina 154 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 2: where you went to school. That's the license plate on 155 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: that car. And apparently the story that we have been 156 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: told since then is that body was discovered in gum 157 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: Swamp Creek, South Carolina. A couple of days later, James 158 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: Jordan's red Lexus was found in the woods near Fayettville, 159 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: North Carolina. That's about sixty miles away from where this 160 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: body was found, is it? 161 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I guess Faithful is probably about Yeah, it's 162 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: about sixty sixty miles, you know how, And look, just 163 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: because you got a body doesn't mean you necessarily know 164 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: who they are. You've got a body, that's all. 165 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: How Joe, let me ask you if you find a 166 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 2: body in a swamp. 167 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And. 168 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 2: I don't know how you're dealing with summer in South 169 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: Carolina and North Carolina right there on the border. It's hot, 170 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: it's humid. What kind of decomposition are we looking at 171 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: day after day after day? 172 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: Particularly in that very damp environment. You know, they're applying 173 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: the term swamp here. I think in South Louisiana we'd 174 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: probably say by you and by you yeah, by you 175 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: is and this is not what they call this. They're 176 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: referring to as swamp. But my understanding is there was 177 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: water flow. There was actually flow, you know, that came 178 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: through this area. And many times with swamps, I think 179 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: people think that they're kind of kind of a stagnant environment, 180 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: and they think that by us are stagnant. You know, 181 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: by us are moving bodies of water. There you can't 182 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: see it really moving quickly. It's not moving. It's not 183 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: like you're watching the Colorado River. Things move very very 184 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: slowly in that environment. And the same here. Anytime you 185 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: hear somebody talk about a swamp, you have to have 186 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: an inflow and an outflow at some point in time. 187 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: And here. Here's one of the interesting things about this case, 188 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: particularly relative to mister Jordan's remains, or what turned out 189 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: to me mister Jordan's remains, is that on one side 190 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: of this body of water is South Carolina. On the 191 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: other side of this body of water is North Carolina, 192 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: and that plays a huge role in this case. One 193 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: of the things having worked a lot of cases that 194 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, were removed from you know, from bodies of water. 195 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: And I'm not being flippant when I say this, but 196 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 1: there were many times, you know, we would say, you know, 197 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: I wish that we could push this body over to 198 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, the other bank, and it would be somebody 199 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: else's case to have to work because you know, you know, 200 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: with the Mississippi River, dude, you never know where bodies 201 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: are going to originate from. You can have bodies that 202 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: will literally flow down, flow down and wind up down 203 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: in South Louisiana, for instance, from adjacent states, and it 204 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: would not that would not be a surprising thing, you know, 205 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: to have that happen. And that's the interesting thing about 206 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: dealing with bodies and water. You don't know what their 207 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: point of origin is at any point time. Where did 208 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: they enter the water. That's always like one of the 209 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: big forensic questions that we ask. So you think about 210 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: access to that water, where could they have if they 211 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: got there under their own power? How did they walk 212 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: down get access? And then you would ask what was 213 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: the purpose of them being in this area? Well, if 214 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: you ain't got fishing gear with you what's the purpose 215 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: of being in a swamp? What's the motivation here? Because 216 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: there's not too many other Are you going out to 217 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: survey the land to see if this is a place 218 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: where you want a summer home. Probably not. And if 219 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: you're not a civil engineer or a trapper or maybe 220 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: an outdoorsman and you're fishing, you really there's really no 221 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: good reason to be in this environment. So you begin 222 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: to think, well, is this if you come across a 223 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: body like this, is this a body that under its 224 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: own power in life made it to the body of water, 225 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: got in at some point in time? That is you 226 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: don't You don't know, or I think the more sinister 227 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: part of this is this a dump? A body dump? 228 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: Because in cases like this, water bodies of water are 229 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: used many times to get rid of all evidence. They're 230 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: used to wash away things, or at least that's super 231 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: perception of a perpetrator, and I think that in James 232 00:14:43,000 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: Jordan's case, that was probably the end game. When you 233 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: have an area like a swamp, the one thing that 234 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: you know that it is going to contain is going 235 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: to be a lot of mud, a variety of different 236 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: types of wildlife that you'll find out there. It can 237 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: be aquatic wildlife. You can find raccoons and possums, and 238 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: you can even find things like muskrat. You know, they're 239 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: little animals, a little burrowing animals that live in areas 240 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:40,479 Speaker 1: like that. But the other thing that inhabits these spaces 241 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: is dead vegetation. It's not surprising. And I've had this 242 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: happen where you will come across a body and it 243 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: is actually hung up in debris and Dave. One of 244 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: the ways that this case was described early on when 245 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: they discovered this unidentified African American male, uh, he was 246 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: hung on a branch. Now that sounds very, very sinister, 247 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: because when somebody says hung on a branch, automatically you think, 248 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: oh hung, you know, like they're you've been hung. No, 249 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: that means that you you get caught up, okay, and 250 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: it was in the moving water, right and you wind up, 251 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, getting caught I mean, and listen, I urge 252 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: anybody that's near a moving body of water, particularly a 253 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: slower moving body of water, just go look at the 254 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: eddies in the shallows alongside. You'll see all manner of 255 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: things that are caught up in there in the watch 256 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: that are out of the mainstream. If even the slightest 257 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: little branch catches hold of a bit of clothing, the 258 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: current many times will just kind of whip it around 259 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: and so then it really becomes entangled. So when the 260 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: body of this unidentified fellow was found, all they knew 261 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: is that they had an unidentified African American and he's 262 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: he's in a market state of decomposition. It's like you said, Dave, 263 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: it's summertime. 264 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: It's in the South, late July, first week of August. 265 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: That's the worst. Yeah, things degrade really really quickly, Dave. 266 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: Well, now, his body was found on August third. Now 267 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: I pointed out there was a nationwide awareness that nobody 268 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 2: had talked with James Jordan in a while. Something's wrong. 269 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: His body was found on August third, and as you mentioned, 270 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: he's a John Doe. They don't know who he is. 271 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: Decomposition was such that they could not identify him right away. 272 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 2: The body, the car, rather the lexus of James Jordan, 273 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 2: was found on August the fifth. So you have this 274 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: unidentified body at the Morgue, I guess two days before 275 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: his vehicle is found many miles away, and they still 276 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: are having trouble identifying the body we have that we 277 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 2: pulled out of the swamp. They ended up identifying the 278 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 2: body of James Jordan with dental records that the family provided. Yeah. 279 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: Now, yeah, but it was a long crooked road before 280 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: they got to do. 281 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: August thirteenth, Okay, And that's what I was going to 282 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: get to, is Okay, August third, his body is found. 283 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: It takes ten days and dental records to identify the 284 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: remains the body. Now, does what happens with a body 285 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: that comes in like this even if there's a I mean, no, 286 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm just going to start right there. Yeah, 287 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: you've got an unidentified body. This could have been somebody 288 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: that was out fishing and had a heart attack and 289 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: died naturally. I mean could have. But you I'm because 290 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 2: I don't know the signs of dcomp I don't know 291 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: how bad it looks. That's what I kind of am 292 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 2: after with you is what are they finding? What did 293 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: they find Joe when they found his body. 294 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: Well, they found a body that was in a moderate 295 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: to advance state of decomposition. And the heat has a 296 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: lot to do with that. Also, this wet environment, and 297 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: not to mention any kind of animal activity that may 298 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: have been drawn because the smell, the smell from a 299 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: decomp is it's so hard for a wild animal to 300 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: fight against that, as a matter of fact, it draws 301 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: them in. So you don't know to what degree the 302 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: body may have been changed as a result of animal activity. 303 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: You have a face that is presumably unrecognizable, probably bloated, 304 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: and you can have all manner of tissue that's missing 305 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: from around the face, or it's bloated to the extent 306 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: that you can't you know, have there's no possibility that 307 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: someone can physically look at the body. Let me tell 308 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: you one other thing too, people. I think that people 309 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: still labor under this idea that that we will bring 310 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: families into modern medical, medical legal facilities and have a 311 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: body out on a gurney and some ghoulish looking you know, 312 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: you always see it in the movies, some ghoulish looking 313 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: mortgage and that slowly pulls back the sheet and says, 314 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: is this your father? That that just doesn't work like 315 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: that anymore. First off, it's horrible to subject a family 316 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: to that when there are other means. We do a 317 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: lot of photography, there's a lot of real time imaging too, 318 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: with cameras in the ceiling that can actually look down 319 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: at the body. If you have an intact body, if 320 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: you've got a decomposed body, there is no way that 321 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: I can speak to I can speak for myself. There's 322 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: no way I would subject a family member to that. 323 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: What if they want if I say to you, Joe, 324 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: I see this. 325 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: Oh I'm glad you asked that question. I've had families. 326 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: I've had courts that have issued injunctions because the steps 327 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: that we were taken with bodies. You get threatened by 328 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: family members at that moment in time that they're demanding 329 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: to see a body. And I've had I've actually had 330 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: circumstances where people were brutally killed and I say killed. 331 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: What I mean by that that it's not necessarily homicides. 332 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: It could be car accidents, anything anything like that, and 333 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: I will I would sit there and look at I 334 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: would sit there and look families Dave right in the eye, 335 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: and I'd say, you don't want to do this, you 336 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: do not want to see. And it doesn't matter what 337 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: you say to them, They're going to say, that's my father, 338 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: that's my child. I want to see the body. I 339 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: want to see the body right now. So I'd gotten 340 00:21:53,640 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: to the point where we had our departmental attorney create 341 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: a document that we called a Hohold Harmless Agreement, where Okay, 342 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: we're going to show you the body, but if you 343 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 1: pass out and crack your head as you're not going 344 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: to hold us responsible. You're not going to hold us 345 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: responsible if you're scarred as a result of it because 346 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: you have been told you've been told you shouldn't do this, Dave. 347 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: I know of at least two circumstances where I went 348 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: through all of those steps with the family, they still 349 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: demanded to see the body. Guess what they said afterwards, 350 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: I wish you hadn't let us see the body. And 351 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: so you know, and that's not to slam families. Families 352 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: we want to verify who are dead are well. First off, 353 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: we want to verify it that it's this person is ours. 354 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: I've had cases where people have misidentified bodies. Back early 355 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: on in my career, they would look at a body 356 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: and their assumption was is that this is their relative 357 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: and up they would look at the body and they 358 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: just like do a quick glance, they say, yeah, that's 359 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: my father, and they walk off. I've had bodies misidentified 360 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: as a result of that, it's not scientific. In the 361 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: case of James Jordan, though they were eventually able to 362 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: do dental records on him. But here's here's really kind 363 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: of the interesting thing, and you get an insight into 364 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: the world of coroners here, particularly rural corners, because this 365 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: was I think, if I remember correctly, this was Marlborough County, 366 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: South Carolina. And you know, look, if you look at 367 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: Marlboro County, South Carolina, they're not at the top of 368 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: the list for folks that have tons and tons of money. 369 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: All right, they're rural. They're rural people. Matter of fact, 370 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: their corner at the tom it's a part time gig 371 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: gets elected. Wow, and the corner, I think, if I'm 372 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: not mistaken, he was a local guy that ran for 373 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: the office. But he wasn't a funeral director. It's not 374 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: like he was hired he'd want service community. He was 375 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: actually I think in construction or something like that. And 376 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: when you come into office, you think you want to 377 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: do this job, and then suddenly you realize, well, I 378 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: don't have space for bodies. I might not have any 379 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: space at all. So you have an event like this 380 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: where you have an unidentified body. It's severely decomposed. You 381 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: know that it's a homicide, but you can't hang onto 382 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: the body because it's a John Doe. You don't have 383 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: a cooler, and there's not like a Central State Medical 384 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: Examiner's office where you can take the body there. And 385 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: can you imagine bringing in a severely decomposed body into 386 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: your local community hospital and asking them to store the 387 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: body in the morgue there. They don't want it in 388 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: there because it's a treatment facility. They're dead. The people 389 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: that die there are going to go there. So what 390 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: is a corner to do well in this set of circumstances, Dave? 391 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: They took the ultimate They made the ultimate choice. And 392 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: I got to tell you there's not too many Emmys 393 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: that do this anymore, or corners that cremated the body. 394 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 2: I can't imagine. 395 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, they cremated the body. They didn't that he had 396 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: no other choice, and it doesn't people say why didn't 397 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: they just embalm it? Really, you think that embalming the 398 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: body is going to stop because once that train of 399 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: decomposition has started moving out of the station to this degree, 400 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: there's no amount of embalming that you can do to 401 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: knock down, uh, the smell to cease decomposition. First off, 402 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: the vessels in and of themselves, the vessels that you 403 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: count upon to uh to carry the embalming fluid to 404 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: all areas of the body, those are compromised now they're 405 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: breaking down. So there's no guarantee that even if you 406 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: tried to embalm the body, that it would be a success. 407 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: Here's what I do know. I know never occurred to me, Joe. 408 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: That never occurred to me at all. Yeah. Yeah, and 409 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: that's something I. 410 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 2: Assumed that once you embalmed a body that everything stopped. 411 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 2: I never really thought about it. So even embalming is 412 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: not even a reality. 413 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: So in the fresh dead it works. And I've been 414 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: involved in bodies that have been exhumed. You know, I 415 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: may have mentioned it before, but I remember a case. 416 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: I had a guy who'd been in the ground for 417 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: fifteen or sixteen years, and he was perfectly preserved, except 418 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: he had a bit of mold growing on to say so, 419 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: other than that, he was completely intact. It looked like 420 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: he had died the day before. Makeup was still there 421 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: the whole nine yards. But once a decomposition process started, 422 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: you know, you're spitting in the ocean to raise a 423 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: water level. It's just it ain't going to work. And 424 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: in mister Jordan's case, one of the things that was done, 425 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: and this is very commonly done, So what I'm about 426 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: to say is going to be very shocking. Hands and 427 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: head are removed, okay, And one of the reasons this 428 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: occurs is you hold on there was at least enough 429 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: tissue on the hands that they thought that they would 430 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: be able to get role prints off of the hands. 431 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: And what has to happen with decomposing bodies when you 432 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: because the fingers begin to shrivel up. So what you do, 433 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: and I've done cases where we didn't take the whole hands, 434 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: we would just clip off the fingertips. You actually use 435 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: a pair of printing shears with the big crescent shaped blade, 436 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, and you clip off the tips of the fingers. 437 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: In that way, you can take what's called tissue builder 438 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: and you literally dave inject it into the skin just 439 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: underline the fingertips, and guess what happens that as that finger, 440 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: as that tissue builder is injected into that space, it 441 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: begins to expand and it actually expands out to the 442 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: point where you can now appreciate the friction ridges on 443 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: the tips of the fingers that you can roll prints on. 444 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: Now you say, well, why would the head be removed 445 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: or why you know at minimum the jaws be removed, Well, 446 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: you're going to retain those in order to do the 447 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: dental work that you have to do. And the best 448 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: way to do dental work for most forensic identologists that 449 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: do the examinations on bodies is if you can separate 450 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: the head from the body, or at least take out 451 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: the jaws, you can It's almost like if you've ever 452 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: seen a schematic of like a piece of equipment that's 453 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: being designed by an engineering company, they'll do what's called 454 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: an exploded view, where you've got all the pieces that 455 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: are kind of sitting there and it's in this kind 456 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: of three D model. If you can imagine, if you 457 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: can open the jaws up and expose them completely, you 458 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: can see every little detail in every tooth along the way, 459 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: any kind of restorations, fillings, extractions, that absence of teeth 460 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: where they should be, and you can retain those. I've 461 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: been involved in cases where we retain jaws for years 462 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: just sitting in a formulane bucket, and we'd have the 463 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: case number on the outside and it would be we 464 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: didn't use the term John Doe. We use the term 465 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: or Jane Doe. We would use the term UID, which 466 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: means unidentified, and it would be case like number I 467 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: don't know, like this year would be twenty four dash 468 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: zero zero zero one, okay, UID, And so that's the 469 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: case number that person's assigned at that moment in time. 470 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: John Doe and Jane Doe are terms that generally the 471 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: media uses a lot now when they're talking about unidentified. 472 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: But he came in as a John Doe and you're 473 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: sitting there and you're thinking, you're this little corner, You're 474 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: this little rural corner. And it's not the corner that's 475 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: taking the fingertips or the hands, or the head or 476 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: the jaws. It's not the corner that's doing that. It's 477 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist that's actually doing the examination. They make 478 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: that determination a little Marlborough County. They didn't have a 479 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist that worked in that county. They had a 480 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist that was contracted and the body would be 481 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: sent to them to the most convenient location for them 482 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: to do the autopsy. So when this autopsy was performed, 483 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: it was done at a distance, and then the body 484 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: is brought back and you have to make a decision 485 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: at that point in time. Now, this fellow probably had 486 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: a contract county had a contract with a crematory. It's 487 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: the most expedient thing to do. But brother Dave, I 488 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: got to tell you, once the fire is lit, once 489 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: the doors to that crematory earth open, and you push 490 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: that body in, and that body begins to heat up 491 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: and it begins to truly disintegrate. Better make sure that 492 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: you have all of your ducks in a row. Well, 493 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: you know, we know that we've got a body. They 494 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: had the body at that time didn't have an ID 495 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: at first. Obviously it took some time to get it. 496 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: Here's the interesting little side note on this case. Dave, 497 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: the coroner, who was watching television one night, had like 498 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: this epiphantal moment when he saw the news cast come 499 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: on and I actually saw an interview with him, and 500 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: I recommend anybody, anybody out there, I think I turned 501 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: to you on to this, Dave. There's a great if 502 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: you watch Frontline PBS specials, there's a great PBS Frontline 503 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: special it's out there called post mortem Death Investigation in America. 504 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: I urge anybody to watch that. It actually gives you 505 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: great insight into death investigation in America. And the case 506 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: of Michael Jordan's dad is actually front and center in 507 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: the special Specials only like fifty four minutes. You can 508 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: watch it for free online. It really gives you insight 509 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: into what position this man was placed in. But I 510 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: can tell you what he did know. He did know 511 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: from the forensic pathologists that they had a subject that 512 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: had not died of a heart attack. This individual had 513 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: died of a single gunshot went into the chest. Not 514 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: only was it a single gunshot, one to the chest 515 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: and they described it directly into the heart as a 516 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: way it had been described. But they knew caliber, Dave, 517 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: They knew that it was a thirty eight caliber round 518 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: that had killed this person. 519 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: How could they identify that location? And I with a 520 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: body that is so deteriorated the corner. 521 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: According to him in the interview, you know, he's he's 522 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: literally watching and I think, I'm I'm uh, you know, 523 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: kind of putting words into his paraphrase. They're paraphrasing. Uh. 524 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: He said that that might be our man that might 525 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: be our man while imagine yeah, while he's watching the 526 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: evening news and can you can you imagine you're some 527 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: guy that's just trying to do your community service here, 528 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: You're you love them so much you're going to deal 529 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: with they're dead, all right, that's how much you love 530 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: the county people there. You've run for the office, you've 531 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: got the job, and all of a sudden, you're sitting 532 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: in your front room and you've got the television on 533 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: and you put two and two together. Like you're sitting there. 534 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: No one else is thinking about this. He's like that, wait, 535 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: well I so that What did I do? Yeah? Exactly? 536 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,479 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden you realize there's a high 537 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:17,879 Speaker 1: probability that this man was in your area, that he's 538 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: been shot, and he is dead, and you have had 539 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: him cremated. What are you going to do at this 540 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: point in time? And well, you've got to you got 541 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: to bite the bullet at that point in time, no 542 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: pun intended. You have to start making phone calls. I 543 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: think we may have somebody fitting that description. And you 544 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: know what family's going to say the first time they 545 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: hear that, where is he? Let me see and that 546 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: goes back to what we were talking about earlier, and 547 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: that's a normal reaction for the family. Family. They want 548 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: to put eyes on as quickly as they can, and 549 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, you drop this bomb into 550 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,439 Speaker 1: the middle of their life where they say, uh, yeah, 551 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: I hate to tell you this, but we had to 552 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: have the body cremated. And that created such a huge 553 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: firestorm among people. I still and I have memories of this. 554 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: Even prior to the documentary. People were raking the sky 555 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: over the coals for having the body cremated. Well, you 556 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: know what, hass if you've got a better solution for 557 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: the people in Marlboro County, South Carolina, once you come 558 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: up with it, because the man didn't even have a cooler. 559 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: I was shocked when I found this out, Joe. My 560 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 2: first reaction was, you did what if that was my 561 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,959 Speaker 2: If that was my dad? You cremated him without knowing 562 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: who he was? 563 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: What's wrong with you? Oh? 564 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 2: You saved his head and his hands, thank you? But oh, 565 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 2: I can't imagine. I mean, I'm looking at this intellectually, 566 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: I'm going understand it, right, I totally get it. Emotionally, 567 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 2: that guy had to have just lost it. I mean, 568 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 2: when he realized what had happened. I mean, there's no 569 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 2: way you can go There's no way you can look 570 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 2: yourself in the mirror and say, look, I didn't have 571 00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 2: any other choice. You're going to look at yourself and go, 572 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: you really messed up, Dave, and you didn't you did 573 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 2: your job. 574 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: Listen, you can let's just frame this just for a second, 575 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: particularly for younger listeners. You know, younger friends that listen 576 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: to us. I don't know that. I mean, you've most 577 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: people have grown up hearing about Michael Jordan. But if 578 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: you're at if you're listening to me right now, and 579 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: you never watched him, and you never saw the buzz 580 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: around him, can you imagine being this guy in this 581 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 1: little rural area in the Deep South and he suddenly 582 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: confronted with this idea that he has his life has 583 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: intersected with Michael Jordan, of all people. What a profound 584 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: moment in time. And it didn't intersect in the best 585 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: way possible. It wasn't like he's a guy that said, 586 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: you know, gee, Michael can have a photograph made where 587 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 1: you know you have been in charge of his dad's 588 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: body and you had it creamate it. But what were 589 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: you to do. I mean, it's not like the corner 590 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: could bring the body home with him. I know that's 591 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: very ghastly to think about. But he doesn't even have 592 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: a cooler to store the body in because the county 593 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: didn't have the money to do that. They put money 594 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: toward other things. I bet they don't anymore. I bet 595 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: they've got a cooler. Now, what do you think the 596 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: odds are on that? And so and so? You know, 597 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: and then you're you know, they're faced, and there's a 598 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: lot of people that were hammering on this guy for 599 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: a long time about you know, how could you do this? 600 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: It's like, well, the first place, you don't understand how 601 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: all this operates. You're coming to the dance really late here, man, 602 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: and so you're faced with these situations all the time. 603 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: But they did have a homicide on their hands, I 604 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, and I would imagine that once they were 605 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,879 Speaker 1: able and this is this is one of the things 606 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: that I teach Dave. It's one thing to have a 607 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: homicide and you have an unidentified body, but when you 608 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: get that ID involving homicides, suddenly you've got the biggest 609 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: piece of information you could put. It's not so much. 610 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: There's a gunshot went to the chest. It's now you 611 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: know who this person is. Because once you know who 612 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: this person is, you begin to try to understand, well, 613 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: who's in their orbit? My god, James Jordan, who's in 614 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 1: James Jordan's orbit? You know who is it that would 615 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: have wanted to have killed this man? Dude? 616 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 2: Two days after his body was found, that's when they 617 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: found the car. 618 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 1: Two days Oh yeah, and I think the license plates 619 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 1: had been removed from that car. 620 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 2: Day's trashed. That car has been trashed. It just you know, 621 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 2: I'm having a battle in my head between remembering and 622 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 2: covering this when it happened. Okay, Yeah, at the time 623 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 2: that this was going on, I was running a radio 624 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 2: station in eastern North Carolina. 625 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. I was gonna say, you were still in North 626 00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: Caro I was. 627 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,959 Speaker 2: I was about an hour and a half from where 628 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 2: all this was going on, and it was news every 629 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 2: minute of the day. Michael Jordan. I mean, look, college 630 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 2: basketball is king in the Carolinas anyway, and then you 631 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,919 Speaker 2: move on to the NBA with the most famous man 632 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 2: in the world who came from this area. 633 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: He was a son of North Carolina. 634 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 2: Huge, huge, and anyway, I don't want to get I 635 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 2: just remember it, and I'm having a battle in my 636 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 2: head between remembering the coverage and realizing the things I 637 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 2: didn't know. I remember the car when it showed up, 638 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 2: and it had been totally trashed. I mean, it had 639 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,959 Speaker 2: been really trashed. I didn't know about his body until 640 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 2: you told me the other day about the They mailed 641 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 2: the cremains to Michael Jordan. 642 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I had to go back later and 643 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: let me just kind of fill in the point here. 644 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, when you told me that, I thought, come on, Joe. 645 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: Really, yeah, they you know, you've got the you do 646 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: have the cremaines the the body, you know, but it 647 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: was absent hands and a head. They had to go 648 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: back and cremate that as well after the fact. So 649 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: it just keeps getting worse and worse, you know, for 650 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: the corner, and it's it's really by no fault of 651 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: his own. I think it's just it's the reality of 652 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: the way the chips fell for this man, and he 653 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: happened to be the one that lightning struck, you know. 654 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: At that point in time, I got to tell you, 655 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: I think that they're kind of they're in a in 656 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: a weird way. They're kind of fortunate they even found 657 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: the body, because it's amazing, particularly in swampy areas, the 658 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: way the way a body can actually be just consumed 659 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: in that aerobic environment where everything is eating everything else. 660 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: It's it's it's actually quite an amazing thing. It's like 661 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: a gigantic feeding frenzy for nature in this area. And 662 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about just wild animals. I'm talking about 663 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: just at a microbial level, you know, the way things 664 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: can break down. And they actually found the remains. I 665 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: think the question is, you know, as an adjunct you 666 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: find the car, I think infatiful, right. 667 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 2: So, yeah, you're fine in the woods. It was found 668 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 2: already stripped down and trashed in the woods near Favil. 669 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: And that goes to purpose, right. I mean it's like 670 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: your purpose cars don't just wind up. I think the 671 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: wheels are gone off of it. You drive that. You 672 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: have to physically drive this vehicle back there. So you've 673 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,479 Speaker 1: got two pieces here that are really telling. You've got 674 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,280 Speaker 1: someone that has gone to the links to go into 675 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: a swamp and dump a grown man's body in the swamp. 676 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: Then on top of that, you've got someone that has 677 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 1: taken his vehicle and has literally gotten it back into 678 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: a wooded area in order to obscure it and then 679 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: stripped it down. Dave. 680 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's where was found. Again, this is sixty 681 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 2: miles away from where the body was found. It's a 682 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 2: shocking story all the way around. But Joe, you were 683 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 2: talking about how they identified the gunshot wounded the chest 684 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 2: that appeared to be right in the heart. The reason 685 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 2: we're talking about this today is the story is breaking. 686 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 2: How the judge on the case has said that it 687 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 2: is one of those things that he is haunted by 688 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: that in this case, as it wound up in coordinagain, 689 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 2: you've got an unidentified body that is cremated as a 690 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 2: Jane John Doe. His jaw and his hands are kept 691 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 2: for identification and then they're cremated along with the rest. 692 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 2: You've got the most famous man on the planet whose 693 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 2: dad has again been missing for a couple of weeks 694 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 2: before they even identify. I mean, there's a lot going 695 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 2: on with this story. 696 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: I've often wondered about this case, Dave. When they wound 697 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: up prosecuting this, do you do you think that it 698 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 1: was done in a rush that just almost like putting 699 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: putting this behind, you know, putting this behind them historically, 700 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, the people in North Carolina, you know, just 701 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: just trying to to move on from this point. I 702 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: wonder if anything was missed because this judge that presided, 703 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 1: he's retired. Now, this judge who presided, he's having second 704 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: thoughts now about one of these kids that was said 705 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: grown man now, but one of these kids that was 706 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: convicted that they're saying, you know, is is one of 707 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: the trigger pullers. 708 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 2: And Judge Weeks, Yeah, the fellow's named Judge Weeks. Just 709 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 2: so you know, how they got the conviction. There were 710 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:58,399 Speaker 2: two young men involved, and they were young. Okay, think 711 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,720 Speaker 2: about this for just a minute. Daniel Green was eighteen, 712 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 2: Larry Demrie not much older. They were childhood friends, they 713 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,360 Speaker 2: grew up together. And at trial when the rest of 714 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 2: these two guys, they tied them back to the car 715 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 2: that was found in the woods in Faettville. That led 716 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 2: them back to the empire. That's how they got this 717 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 2: case broken down. Larry Demrie became state's evidence and testified 718 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 2: against Daniel Green a trial and said that Daniel Green 719 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 2: was the man who pulled the trigger on the gun 720 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 2: to kill James Jordan Larry Dimrie copped to plea and 721 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 2: he was sentenced to jail for the prison for the 722 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 2: rest of his life. He got a life sentence, as 723 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 2: did Daniel Green, and Daniel Green said all along, I 724 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 2: didn't do it. I am I was involved. After the 725 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 2: fact the story, Daniel Green told us that his buddy 726 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 2: Larry Demrie and he Daniel Green, were at a cookout. 727 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 2: Larry Demrie comes from and say, hey man, I'll be 728 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:55,800 Speaker 2: back in a little bit. I gotta go. I'm selling 729 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 2: some weed, going to do a drug deal. 730 00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 1: I'll be right back. 731 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 2: Comes back an hour or so later and said, I 732 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 2: need your help, Daniel you got to help me. And 733 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,840 Speaker 2: that's when Daniel Green claims that Larry Demmer had already 734 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 2: killed James Jordan and you needed Daniel Green to help 735 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 2: him get rid of the body. Daniel Green admitted that 736 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 2: he helped get rid of the body, and yet he 737 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 2: has said all along, I didn't pull the trigger. I 738 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,439 Speaker 2: did not kill that man. The judge in the case, 739 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,760 Speaker 2: Judge Weeks, has said he's haunted by the decision because 740 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 2: there was evidence blood related evidence that they could not 741 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 2: determine who it came from, but it wasn't for Daniel Green. 742 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,839 Speaker 2: And there are other aspects of the evidence, but the 743 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 2: case you mentioned it was pushed through fast. They had 744 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,280 Speaker 2: Larry Demrie, who had already pleaded guilty, already being sentenced 745 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 2: and he testifies against his lifelong friend Daniel Green, saying 746 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 2: he pulled the trigger boo him guilty, sentenced to life, 747 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 2: and the judge is saying he didn't. I don't think 748 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 2: he did. We didn't have the evidence for this. I 749 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 2: don't know. I went along that. I feel bad about it, 750 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,479 Speaker 2: and the judge has gone to the case. 751 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: You know. 752 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 2: One of the things they look for at at parole contrition. Yeah, 753 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 2: they want the convicted individual to say I'm sorry, I 754 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 2: hate I did this whatever. Well, you know, Daniel Green 755 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 2: has apologized since the beginning for his pardon it. I'm 756 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 2: sorry I was involved at all. He's apologized to the 757 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 2: Jordan family and anybody would listen. But I didn't pull 758 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 2: the trigger. I was involved after the fact. And that's 759 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 2: where the judge is now saying, give him a chance, 760 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 2: you know, listen to this. So I don't know what's 761 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:34,839 Speaker 2: going to happen, but that's where it comes from. That's 762 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 2: what I was interested when you were talking about I 763 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,799 Speaker 2: did not know the body of being cremated like it was. 764 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:40,840 Speaker 2: I didn't know they held under the jaw in the hands. 765 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,879 Speaker 2: I didn't know any of this show. This is all 766 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 2: fairly new stuff for those of us who even fought 767 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,319 Speaker 2: this thirty years ago. Is happened in ninety three. 768 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, most people don't think about what we do in 769 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: the more relative to a homicide, particularly well, it's not 770 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: just a homicide, but any unidentified body where you know, 771 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,359 Speaker 1: I've been very fortunate, Dave. The facilities that I've worked at, 772 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,440 Speaker 1: we actually in both of the facilities that I worked at, 773 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: we actually had what we're referred to man as decomp rooms, 774 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 1: and so the decomp rooms actually had separate coolers from 775 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 1: what we would to call a morga clean space is 776 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,399 Speaker 1: kind of comical, but from what we refer to as 777 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 1: the clean clean area where you have fresh dead that 778 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: come in, we would have long term storage, you know, 779 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: and a decomp room where we would do autopsies on 780 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 1: bodies that were severely decomposed so they wouldn't go over 781 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,960 Speaker 1: into the other area. We actually had a cooler in 782 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 1: Fulton County that could deep freeze a body. And when 783 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,000 Speaker 1: I say deep freeze I'm talking about. This thing would 784 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: be like zero and it would freeze the body to 785 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 1: the point where it would go into like total stasis. 786 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: You know, we also had agreements, and this is how 787 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 1: convenient it is. If you're in a big area, like 788 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: we had a local mortuary science school mortuary college, and 789 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 1: their kids would come and they would collect unidentified bodies 790 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: that were fresh dead, and they would take them back 791 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,239 Speaker 1: to the mortuary science program and they would learn how 792 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,439 Speaker 1: to EMBALMD bodies, and then they would bring them back 793 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: to us and we would have fully inmbombed bodies that, 794 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: of course, we could keep longer and longer. We've kind 795 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: of left behind the days of cremating bodies. Certain circumstances 796 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: are going to demand it. You know, if you have 797 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 1: an infectious disease, you have a bunch of people that 798 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,240 Speaker 1: are dying, I can tell you that that's probably something 799 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 1: that would happen. You know, if you were ever presented 800 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,120 Speaker 1: with like the black plague or something like that you 801 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,400 Speaker 1: couldn't get under control. You would do that with bodies. 802 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: But a circumstance like this, it presents all kinds of problems. 803 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 1: I think my big issue with this is that I 804 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: hope because the body has been cremated, there is no 805 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,240 Speaker 1: going back. And let's say that for some reason this case, 806 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 1: you wanted to reopen the case. Guess what, You're not 807 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: going to have a body that you can go and 808 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: zoom and take a look at. I hope that everything 809 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 1: that was done at that time was done thoroughly. It's 810 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: kind of frightening I think looking back to think that 811 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: if this case was expedited in any way to the 812 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: point where they missed something. This blood evidence is quite 813 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: intriguing because they did find blood I think in the 814 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,360 Speaker 1: creases in the back seat. 815 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 2: Of that car. 816 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:43,799 Speaker 1: And this is a two door car. For folks that 817 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 1: don't know the car we're talking about, it's Alexis, but 818 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,520 Speaker 1: it's like they're sports luxury sports car that they had. 819 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,760 Speaker 1: It's a two door car with a back seat, very nice, 820 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: very expensive for that day in time, right. Don't even 821 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 1: though if they still make the same model, But you know, nonetheless, 822 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 1: it was a very nice car, nice vehicle. There was 823 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 1: evidence that they never could source within that vehicle. So 824 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: he very well might have grounds here moving forward, but 825 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: we'll she'll see. But I know this, I know that 826 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: no matter what happens. The image for me that is 827 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:35,839 Speaker 1: going to remain of James Shorten will not be that 828 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,200 Speaker 1: burned out car or the images I've seen of that swamp. 829 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 1: It's going to be the image of a young man 830 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,600 Speaker 1: who is at the height of his athletic abilities, standing 831 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder with his father, who was quietly standing 832 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,520 Speaker 1: there with a slight grint on his face, beaming from 833 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:07,080 Speaker 1: a success, ass that his son had attained. I'm Joseph 834 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:16,440 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is bodybags. H m hm