WEBVTT - What the UAW Wants From Its Fight With the Big Three 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:14.000 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.400 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:21.000 Tracy, you know, a few episodes that we've done lately 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.120 from different angles has suggested to me, like we really 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.880 need to talk more about, well, the sort of the 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.040 labor aspect of building cars, the labor aspect of like 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.160 sort of this renewed industrialization in the US. 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.320 Right, because there is this whole discussion going on about 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.560 whether or not the manufacturing process of evs is significantly 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:47.360 different to gas engine cars. And I think there's an 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.160 ongoing debate about whether or not you need fewer workers 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.600 in order to make an electrical vehicle rather than say 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.560 a traditional combustion engine. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.560 Right, So you know this to my mind, So we 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.680 just did the recently did an episode with Corey Kanter 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.640 of Bloomberg and Effort. We talked about this. We talked 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.800 about it back in April at the econ Twitter event 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:10.679 where there was a lot of talk about this sort 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.920 of like pressure to drive down costs for batteries. But 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.360 it also came up, you know, we talked to Jared 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.760 Bernstein of the White House, and I think there's this 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.680 tension because obviously the sort of organized labor is this 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.480 really important pillar of the Democratic Party and for the 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.800 White House. And at the same time, there's this question 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:34.080 about whether this push that the administration is making is 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.199 going to leave a lot of workers behind or cost 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:37.880 a lot of jobs as part of this transition. 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.080 Right there is this ongoing tension between wanting to create 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:47.320 a vibrant and competitive ev industry and battery making in 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:51.960 the United States, but also attaching better work conditions to 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.919 it for workers, like how do you actually compete against 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.040 cheap labor in say China or Mexico when it comes 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.880 to making evs or batteries while sort of making sure 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:06.480 that your workers have good wages, good living conditions and 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:06.960 all of that. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:09.800 And then of course there's the fact that the uaw 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.760 their contract with the Big three automakers gm Ford in Stalantis. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.440 I believe it expires September fourteenth, so that is a 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.520 date that is fast approaching and setting aside evs and 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:25.040 Bidenomics and industrialization, all these things we talk about, this 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.720 has been a sort of summer of intense labor action 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:32.160 that is a pretty intense contract negotiation at ups with 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.520 the Teamsters seems to have been resolved averted without a strike, 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.280 but there is a lot of labor activity that seems 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:40.440 to be happening right now. 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.840 Hot union summer. Can we say that No, I'm. 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.000 Sure it's been said. I guarantee it exactly. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.320 But this actually reminds me. I mean, one of the 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:53.040 earlier episodes we did during the pandemic was about labor 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.400 power in previous pandemics. I think we were talking about 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.040 the Great Plague from the Middle Ages and what happened 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.560 after that, But that was that's a big theme of 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.040 that particular historical event, which is if you lose a 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.320 big chunk of the workforce, while suddenly all the remaining 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:13.200 labors are empowered and they can start asking for better conditions, 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:15.320 and so to some extent, you know, fast forward to 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.760 twenty twenty three, we are basically seeing the continued outcome 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.080 of a lot of the disruptions from the pandemic plus 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.880 some of these new efforts from the Biden administration. 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.280 And the unemployment rate is low, there's still a lot 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:33.600 of jobs, and inflation is high, so people rightfully expect 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.280 to have wages the cost of living improve their cost 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.560 of living so they're not falling behind all right, many 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:40.840 things coming together at once, so we really need to 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.480 do an episode on exactly this topic. And I believe 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.560 we have two perfect guests. We are going to be 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.480 speaking with Dan Vicente, he is the director of Region 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.000 nine at the UAW. And we are also going to 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.160 be speaking with Alex Press, a staff writer a Jacobin 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.000 magazine who's been covering labor action for a long time. 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.400 I always talked to Eli. I want to understand something 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.920 that's going on with the labor movement. So Dan and Alex, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.640 thank you so much for coming on the Outlaws podcast. 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.040 Yeah, thanks so much for having us. 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:10.480 Yeah, thanks for having me, buddy. 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.560 Dan, let me start with you. What is the what 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.080 do you do? What does it mean that you're the 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:16.800 director of Region nine at the UAW. 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.880 So I am the chief executive for all of the 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:26.200 auto workers in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Central and Western 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.080 New York. So we cover a wide range of sectors 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:33.560 to include the auto sector, but higher education workers, cafeteria workers, 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:38.040 casino dealers in Atlantic City, public defenders in Philadelphia County, 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.520 Delaware County, and Pennsylvania. All sorts of things represent all 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:43.479 sorts of different workers throughout. 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:44.160 The three states. 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.440 I want to get into some of the current goings on, 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.560 I guess with UAW. But before we do, maybe Alex, 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.600 could you set the scene for us in terms of 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.480 some of these disputes that we've seen this summer, Like 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:04.400 what is generating feels like more proactive union activity in 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:05.360 twenty twenty. 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.040 Three, I mean, big question. 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.920 You know, there have been a handful of labor disputes 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.800 that Joe mentioned in his introduction, where really in the 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.320 past we would have seen unions and workers either accepting 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.359 concessions or fairly divided over what to do in the 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.919 face of employee pressure, and then this summer we've really. 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.279 Seen unity unions going on the offensive. 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.839 I'm thinking here specifically, of course, of the UPS contract 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.200 that the teamsters have just negotiated. The rank and file 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.360 haven't voted on it yet, but the details that are 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:42.320 out thus far suggest that UPS basically blinked right. They 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:47.400 offered you know, incredible advances both in wages, working conditions. 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.960 You know, as Sean O'Brien, the new president says, no concessions, right, 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.880 which is really different than how things used to be 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.599 for labor. Obviously, Similarly in Los Angeles with the actors 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.640 and writers, those that are on streng Here. Again, in 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.520 all of these examples that I'm giving you, hear a 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.720 couple things. One is that you know, there's a tight 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.880 labor market still, Unemployment is low, inflation is high. People 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.279 have reasons to both sort of stand up and fight 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.080 as if they often put it or leave if a 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:20.440 job is no good, right. I mean, during the pandemic, 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.040 we saw high quit rates, and in part that was 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.719 about workers feeling confident that they could find better jobs elsewhere. 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.640 And so this sort of the way people often praise. 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.960 It is that they used to be quitting and going 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.279 other places, and now they're staying and making their jobs better. 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.360 And so we're seeing those you know going on the offensive, 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.920 fighting for strong contracts where you do have a union, 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:42.080 you know, fighting for a. 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:43.680 New union where you don't have one. 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.320 And so I often attribute to you know, a couple 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:51.120 factors here, just to make it kind of a in brief, 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.360 I usually say that a lot of these workers, especially 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.520 the younger ones you know, have kind of been radicalized 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.200 in certain ways over the past ten years. Bernie Sanders 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:03.640 here is a big part of the story when you 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.520 talk to the young unionists rather than the leadership They'll 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.720 often point to Bernie Sanders' presidential campaigns is when they 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.480 first sort of encountered class politics and this idea of, you. 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.000 Know, the labor movement, what is a union? They didn't know. 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.680 And then you get them going through the pandemic where 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.040 things are sort of clarified as far as the lines 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.239 and the risk of the amount of risk that workers 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.400 face versus their employer, and you get people saying that 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.000 they felt they had nothing left to lose, and so 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.080 that's you know, the interesting thing about the labor movement 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:36.600 is that runs on a slightly slower timeline than say 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.080 electoral politics, so you kind of have to wait a 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.600 couple of years to see what's going to happen. Right, 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.720 It's based on contracts, It's based on an extremely slow 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:48.280 process of organizing a union. And so I would always 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.800 tell people, as the Sanders campaign was kind of coming 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:52.680 to an end in twenty twenty, just wait a few 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.320 years and we will see what becomes of this. And 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.720 I think all of those factors together you get the 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:00.520 picture of what we've seen this summer. 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.280 Long and variable lags in labor politics. 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.600 Yeah, very very very well put. So I mean, as 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:10.240 you say, Okay, so the Sanders campaign sort of awaken people, 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.640 maybe radicalize people. Dan, Can you talk to us a 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.320 little bit about how you got in your role? So 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.920 I believe you were elected in March of this year, 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:24.280 the same time that the new UAW president, Sean Fame, 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.080 was also elected. And I guess one of the words 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:30.440 that like other parties are their tickets. Can you talk 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.240 a little bit about that process. A word that I 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.600 keep seeing is like more militant is a word that 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:37.960 comes up. But can you describe, like a little bit 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.400 about like how that electoral process worked and what the 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:45.600 people your allies sort of pitched to as the UAW members, Like, 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.200 what was your pitch to the members that said, Okay, 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:50.680 elect me instead of whoever else? 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:53.760 So, yeah, we just had an internal election. 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.000 A lot of the big unions of gross country have 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.560 had recent elections, and we've seen in pretty much all 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.400 of the unions that there is new leadership being elected 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.079 to these positions. I started in twenty seventeen in a 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.520 union shop and now I sit on the international Executive 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:13.080 And the only reason that I am here being so 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.360 new to the game, is because there is a general feeling, 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.760 primarily from the younger workforce, that the path end of 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.439 the middle class that used to exist for our grandparents 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:27.160 and parents generation no longer exists. Like Alex was saying, 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.000 it used to be pre pandemic that these companies could 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:35.120 tell our employees listen, we can replace you in a minute. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.120 After the pandemic, where we're all deemed essential, where we 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.640 all had to work through the pandemic, we were deemed 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.520 essential workers. And coming out of the pandemic, we know 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.520 the realities. You can't replace us, and we are the 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.640 essential workers. You need us to make the products that 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.040 make you money. We don't need you as much as 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.720 you need us. And so there's been an awakening in 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.320 the labor movement. And the other part of that is, 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.319 you know, there has been more radical political movements over 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:04.560 the last ten years, as Als was saying, with the 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.959 Bernie Sanders left and stuff, But there's also a huge 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.040 part of our workforce that aren't really politically partisan one 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.040 way or the other. What they do know is that 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.199 their standard of living has gone down, their lives are harder, 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.040 and the companies we worked for are making record profits. 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.079 It's not a sustainable system for not just a union 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.720 or a company. Before our society. So there is a 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.319 new generation coming up and we are more militant. We're 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.480 more militant because we've been waiting for politicians, one party 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:34.840 the other to come and save us, and they have 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:36.079 done nothing for us. 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.360 So we are angry and we feel that we're going 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:39.720 to have to do it ourselves. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.680 So just real quickly, specifically, when you ran for in 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.520 Region nine, or when the pre when your president Shawn 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:50.280 Fein ran like, what was your message specifically to the 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.559 rank and file that you would deliver that in your view, 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:55.079 prior union leadership did not. 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:58.880 It was It was a simple message. It was I'm 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.720 from the shop floor. Just four months ago, I was 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.800 working two plastic extruders in Pennsylvania. I was a committee 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.280 man elected in my local, but I had never had 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.120 a position in the international. And my message to our 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:17.040 membership within the region was the previous incumbents have become 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.240 too comfortable with management. They've been around too long. The 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:24.440 union leadership has been around so long, they've cosied up 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:29.360 the management. They've negotiated as concessinary contracts, and they forget 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.400 what life and the struggles are of working men and 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:32.360 women on these floors. 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:36.040 And we have to run against the incumbency because it's easy. 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.040 To say that management has major life harder and giving 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.400 you grappy contracts. It's harder to say that the union 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.520 owns a part of that, we're responsible for that as well. 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:46.440 And it's tough to look in the mirror and say 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.200 our institution has failed. But the new leadership ran on 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.040 a platform and we're not going to continue to fail. 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:55.280 If anything, the COVID nineteen late bear the inequities in 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.120 our society and we're not going to continue to just 0:11:58.800 --> 0:11:59.880 I don't know if I can curse in this pot. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.000 Yes, but we're not going to continue each shit. That's fine. 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.960 You wouldn't be the first person, of course. You know 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:10.160 you mentioned dissatisfaction with previous union leadership a couple of 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:14.480 times now, particularly from the sort of younger generation of workers. 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.240 And one thing that I keep hearing coming up in 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.679 context is the word tiering. Can you explain what teering 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:23.240 is in this context? 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:28.280 Yeah, So tiered wages were introduced in the Big three 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.760 auto manufacturing contracts during the recession, They've existed in other 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:34.559 unions contracts for some time. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:35.680 Or basically, what it. 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.360 Is is, if you're hired ask a certain date, whatever 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.240 that X date is, you could be paid ten, twelve, thirteen, 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.160 fifteen dollars less an hour than the person working right 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.679 next to you that was hired on why dates, So 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.160 depending on when you were hired dictates your wages. 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.480 So you'll never make the maximum amount of money. 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:58.640 As people hired before you, You'll never get to the 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.360 same benefit level as the people for you, and you 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.280 could be in a tiered progression. It could be what's 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.559 called an in progression wage for up to seven years. 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:11.200 What was now for that? I struggle to understand how 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.280 that would ever really be accepted as fair. But what 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.480 were people saying, like, what were the reasons? 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.560 It was introduced during the recession, So dor indoor recession, 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:27.000 we were both forced and willfully took concessions basically to 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:32.720 save the big three legacy auto manufacturers from not ceasing 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:33.199 to exist. 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.480 They were in such a bad financial position that they 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:36.720 could have collapsed entirely. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.200 So we you know, we understand that the relationships in biotics, 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:43.680 so we need them and they need us, so we 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.640 agreed to the concessions, and that's when tiered wages were introduced. 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.360 That's one costs of living adjustments were suspended. The pensions 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.600 were for us all sorts of things, and as an institution, 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.080 we were under the assumption that, yes, we have to 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.320 make these concessions now to save our employers. 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.160 We get that, but over time we. 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.800 Will build back, you know, over multiple contracts, we'll get 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:06.520 back inch by inch. 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.520 Butok we were given up to get back to a 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.040 level of what wages and benefits that we. 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.720 Had had pre recession, and it just turns out that 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.280 in the fifteen years since then they haven't given us. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.520 So it was inevitable that we were going to get 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:21.240 to this point. 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.800 Alex, how corrosive, you know, when you talk to people 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.760 across the different unions UAW, but also otherwise, how corrosive. 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.480 And I believe that UPS also had a tiered system. 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.840 But how corrosive is that in terms of Okay, here's 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.800 two members of the same union at the same company, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.040 very different sort of lifestyle and career trajectories due to this, 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.760 pay trajectories due to this, and just generally this sort 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.960 of like I guess, the way Dan described it almost 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.960 felt like a sort of like union leadership capture, in 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.800 which the leaders, the past leaders of the union feel 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.240 like they may have just as much responsibility to the 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.200 management to the company as the members of the union. Like, 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.640 how consistent are some of these things across the sort 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.880 of multiple labor actions we're seeing these days. 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.400 Yeah, I mean I think you got to it a 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:28.800 little bit in your question about tears as far as 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.120 the corrosiveness. But it's very easy to imagine, right, like 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.760 you are on the assembly line, or say, for maybe 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.320 your listeners, you are at the desk looking at your computer, at. 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:43.080 The keyboard line clicking seriously our quotas of clicks. 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.280 Okay, keep going in, sir, Yes, and your coworkers on 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.120 either side are doing the same thing, right, assembly line 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.520 or office job, whatever, but they are making. 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.360 Double the amount you make, right. 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.960 I mean it's very hard not only to make sense 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.000 of that, but also it's very hard to build any 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:06.920 kind of trust and organizing relationship with those co workers. 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:08.520 Right. It builds this resentment. 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.200 It really corrodes a union from the inside out, right. 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.080 I mean Dan was speaking to this that you know, 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.240 a union needs the rank and file to actually one 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.480 view the union as something that they can trust and 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.560 that that is them that they lead, but also something 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.480 that is going to you know, sort of fight for 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:31.320 equal pay, fight against sort of arbitrary boss discrimination. And 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:33.680 a lot of workers will tell me, whether it's at UPS, 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.160 whether it's at the Big Three, whether it's anywhere with 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.320 a tier that this just feels like unequal pay for 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.760 equal work, and obviously that has a long history of 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.480 being unacceptable. Also, it is often then racialized in that 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:46.560 the workers who. 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.960 Are in the earlier, the more. 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.800 Recently hired tiers with lower pay or often more you know, 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.480 less white, more women, and so this really creates all 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.400 kinds of problems within the workplace. And just one little 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.080 example here is that you know UPS, when the Teamsters, 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.480 we don't have to go into all the machinations here, 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:10.200 but the Teamsters ended up accepting a UPS contract during 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:14.359 the last negotiations. That's created a new tier of driver 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.800 called twenty two fours. That's the name of the clause 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:19.600 in the contract that creates them. 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.240 Is this the ones driving like in their own cars? 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:22.920 Is that right? 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.600 No? No, that's entirely different. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.840 Twenty two hours though, were so they had worse benefits, 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.720 lower pay, you know, they topped out way lower than 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:36.560 the permanent driver, the regular tier. And there was a 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.680 huge uproar when this tenet of agreement came out during 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:44.320 the last negotiating cycle and the members in fact voted 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:48.000 it down. Numerically, the majority rejected this ups contract last 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:53.600 negotiation rounds, but the younger Hoffa, James Hoffa Junior, forced 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:57.960 this contract through using a very arcane clause in the 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.640 Teamsters constitution, one that even you know, when I would 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.639 speak with very long time kind of militant rank and 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.399 file like teams to reformers, they hadn't even been aware 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.080 that this clause existed, and it was about, you know, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.280 if you don't have x percentage of the workers voting 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.239 and voting by why amount, then you can kind of 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:19.480 force a contract through. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:21.520 And that's what Haffa did. 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.320 He forced this contract in, and that is what leads 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.480 to the next several years where his successor loses to 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:36.560 Sean O'Brien who had broken from Haffa's regime during these negotiations, 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:39.480 and Sean O'Brien had said, you know, I'm sick of 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.879 these concessionary contracts. He ends up allying with a number 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.360 of reformers within the union and he runs to take 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:51.119 over the presidency of the team Stars on the on 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.720 several messages, but one being that he is going to 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.600 negotiate the strongest ups contract ever and get rid of 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:57.119 this tier. 0:18:57.760 --> 0:18:59.959 And he has done that. That is in the TA, 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:00.560 but that. 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.520 Really becomes the defining kind of story for the Teamsters 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:05.439 reform as well. 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:06.840 And Dan Jen mentioned it. 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:09.479 But his slate when they ran for the UAW and 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.760 won all of their seats, I believe all seven leadership seats, 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:17.240 their slogan was no corruption, no concession, no tears. 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.359 So I mean it is that is correct. 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.639 I just going to say if I can, what Alex 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.920 was talking about about previous union leaders jamming agreements down 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.320 the thirds of their members. That's not just unique to 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.399 the Team six. That has been a longstanding issue in 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.280 a lot of traditional legacy unions is that the top 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.920 leadership feels like they have the authority to force agreements 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.720 on the rank and file members. And a huge part 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.280 of our platform is that we will not do that 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.560 under any circumstances, because the institutions exist of certain members 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:55.560 not perpetuate itself. 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.000 You know, Joe I worked in a unionized labor force once. 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:02.159 I didn't know that. 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.280 Yeah, the Financial Times had a very active journalism union, 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:11.000 and this discussion reminds me that one time, the union accidentally, 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:15.119 I think it was accidentally published everyone's salaries in the 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:20.080 news room. It was fun. Yeah, it was anonymized, but 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.399 it was They divided it by gender and age, and 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.200 I think they were trying to make a point about 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.800 how women were sort of systematically underpaid. But you can 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:33.080 imagine all hell broke loose. Everyone was upset with literally 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:38.359 everyone years. I found out I was one of the 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.120 two lowest paid women at the FT at that time, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.800 So that was fun. But this story does have a point, 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.439 which is, you know, when you're leading these types of discussions, 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.359 it seems like you are representing lots of different types 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.879 of workers, and some of those workers might have a 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.679 good deal and others might not. And Alex mentioned at 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.840 the beginning of this conversation that it feels like in 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.480 twenty twenty three, a lot of workers are coalescing, they're 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:10.119 coming together, they're sort of uniting. Obviously, being in a union, 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:14.040 how are you getting that kind of consensus when it 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.119 feels like, you know, some people still have it a 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:18.520 lot better than others. 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.840 So there are certainly some union members, regardless of which 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.959 sector you work in, that have you know, quote unquote 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.359 better agreements than other ones or better situations, but it 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.280 doesn't At this point, it really doesn't matter what secord 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:35.639 you work and where you work, even if you have 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.000