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Speaker 1: Ron Andanian. I could get the plug out of two,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't get the plug to budge on one. And

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Speaker 1: I leaned on it as hard as I wanted to

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Speaker 1: with the with the smaller than increasingly growing larger breaker bars,

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Speaker 1: trying to get a fuel for it. It was just

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Speaker 1: brammed in there. It's why that baby's in there. Good

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Speaker 1: to kiss to the radio in the Car Doctor. One

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Speaker 1: of the shop people were placed the ETM relay. I

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Speaker 1: fill it out with you. They were barking up the

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Speaker 1: wrong tree. They were closed. Welcome to the radio home

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Speaker 1: of Ron and Nanian the Car Doctor. Since this is

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Speaker 1: where car owners the world overturned to for their definitive

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Speaker 1: opinion on automotive repair. If your mechanics giving you a

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Speaker 1: busy signal, pick up the phone and call in. The

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Speaker 1: garage doors are open, but I am here to take

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Speaker 1: your calls at eight five, five six and now running.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's an awful lot of conversation of late

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Speaker 1: about the e V, the electric vehicle, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of things flying around and being discussed, and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're very fortunate today in that um. You know,

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Speaker 1: the quote comes to mind about if I've if I've

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Speaker 1: seen far in this particular industry and on paraphrases, because

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Speaker 1: I've stood on the shoulder of the giants. We've got

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Speaker 1: one of the We've got a gentleman that I consider

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Speaker 1: one of the giants in the in the development of

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Speaker 1: the ev and where this is gonna go and some

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Speaker 1: just very plain and honest and straightforward facts. And we're

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Speaker 1: glad to have him back with us once again. Mark Mills.

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Speaker 1: He's a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about his testimony in front of the U. S.

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Speaker 1: House Committee on Agriculture today. Mark, I'm probably embarrassing you,

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Speaker 1: but that's okay, man, you deserve it. If we're in

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Speaker 1: the same room, you wouldn't call me a giant. But

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Speaker 1: that's okay. Take it, take it, take it. So how

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Speaker 1: are you today? I'm doing great. Fact, you'll be back here.

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Speaker 1: Here you go. Right, You're standing up in front of

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Speaker 1: the U. S. House Committee on Agriculture talking about evs

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Speaker 1: and I'm reading your testimony, which my spies have gotten

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Speaker 1: for me, and I'm um, I'm gonna ask you if

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Speaker 1: I can post this up on Facebook and put this

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Speaker 1: out to the public, a public information. Right, it's not

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Speaker 1: like I've got uh, that's the whole point. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's right, it's it's you know, you talk about, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the obvious. You you explain in your in your

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Speaker 1: opening paragraphs, um, uh that you want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the needed infrastructure and possible impediments to electric vehicle adoption

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Speaker 1: in rural America. And you want to talk about some

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Speaker 1: of the infrastructure realities. And I'm paraphrasing here, I should

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Speaker 1: begin by pointing out the obvious. You say, um, we

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Speaker 1: will see a lot more evs on the road, and

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Speaker 1: you explain that in detail, and then you make a

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Speaker 1: stunning announcement. As the Committee knows, while in recent years

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Speaker 1: we've seen rapid growth and consumer purchases of evs, the

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Speaker 1: total number of electric vehicles and used today remains overall

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Speaker 1: at about six tenths of a percent of all light

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Speaker 1: duty vehicles on America's roads. Well, you know, it's rapid

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Speaker 1: growth from a very from a very small number. Sounds

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Speaker 1: like a lot, but it's kind of like if you're

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Speaker 1: gambling and I told you made a ten dollar bet.

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Speaker 1: It sounds great, it's not. It doesn't very meaningful. So

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Speaker 1: there there haven't been many evis around for a long time.

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Speaker 1: There there there are more. Now. Look, let's stipulate something

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Speaker 1: that I've said many many times, and I'll have written

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Speaker 1: and I will say it again that Elon Musk's uh

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Speaker 1: capacity to make a vehicle that is a good vehicle

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Speaker 1: to make a successful automobile company cannot be explained away

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Speaker 1: by subsidies. No one, no one that can afford a

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Speaker 1: ninety thousand dollar vehicle is going to buy a lousy

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Speaker 1: vehicle even with a fifteen thousand dollar discounts. It's not

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Speaker 1: gonna happen. It's an amazing vehicle. He has. His engineers

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Speaker 1: have made the best electric vehicle batteries in the world

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Speaker 1: so far. It really is remarkable engineering. There are, and

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Speaker 1: every automaker is now chasing this bogey in the high

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Speaker 1: end of the market. It's a great option to have.

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Speaker 1: There will be lots of evs in the world. But

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Speaker 1: what I was testifying about was the question about whether

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Speaker 1: or not it made sense because this was this is

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Speaker 1: the Agricultural Committee two subsidize and accelerate the penetration of

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Speaker 1: electric vehicles in rural America. And I didn't oppose that.

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Speaker 1: I would just play it out some of the obvious

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Speaker 1: facts and the engineering and realities of charging and running

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Speaker 1: and you know, using e vs, and also the supply

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Speaker 1: chain which had become aware of what what does it

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Speaker 1: take to make lots more e V It's not I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not like everything else in the world. You have

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Speaker 1: to build things from something. Non electric vehicles, you know,

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Speaker 1: internal combustion engine cars are made mainly from steel and copper, plastic,

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Speaker 1: some aluminum, rubber things. But d vs use about three

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Speaker 1: more critical minerals of copper, obviously lithium, cobalt, nicol. You

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Speaker 1: have to think about where that's going to come from

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Speaker 1: if you try to increase by force the number of

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Speaker 1: those cars in the road. Yeah, and and and where

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Speaker 1: does that all come from? And not here? Not here? Right? Problem?

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Speaker 1: And you know, you make a statement in your testimony.

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Speaker 1: It's well known and obvious that rural residents and this

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Speaker 1: is so simplistic and it's genius. I gotta tell you

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Speaker 1: that rural residents drive drive more miles on average, about

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Speaker 1: more per person per year than urban drivers. Right, because

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Speaker 1: if you're out in the country, you have to drive

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Speaker 1: to get somewhere because you're going to get stuff which

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Speaker 1: is you know, twenty miles away or maybe farther. Um,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be driving more and if you're in an

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Speaker 1: e V vehicle, that sort of presents a problem. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And here's here's the key. The problem is not range,

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Speaker 1: as I pointed out on my testimony, the idea that

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Speaker 1: e vs don't have the range of internal combustion engines

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Speaker 1: for most cars for most purposes, most gasoline tanks. I'm

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Speaker 1: not talking about the big tank and the stressed you know,

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Speaker 1: a a crew cabin F one fifty with a big tank,

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Speaker 1: but a regular vehicles you have about three h range

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Speaker 1: to eighty three fifty three hundred mile average range in

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Speaker 1: most cars, and the e vs you can buy today

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Speaker 1: have about a three hundred mile range. So it's not

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Speaker 1: a range issue. It's a refueling issue. It's a practical matter.

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Speaker 1: If you recharge your car, refuel at night at home,

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Speaker 1: that's that's fine. So the F one fifty Lightning, which

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Speaker 1: I talked about because I think it's a pretty cool truck,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty amazing piece of engineering. Chevy's chasing with their

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Speaker 1: own silver Rado version, but they sell it with an

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Speaker 1: overnight charger so you can refuel it overnight eight to

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Speaker 1: ten hours. Okay, that's kind of a long time. So

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Speaker 1: if you have to make a long trip, you stop

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Speaker 1: at a refueling station and a supercharger. A supercharger which

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Speaker 1: is what you can't have in your home because they

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Speaker 1: cost as much as the vehicle. Uh, takes forty minutes

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Speaker 1: to refuel the vehicle. Pretty good, much better than much

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Speaker 1: better than eight hours, except feel like up an FTK

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Speaker 1: takes gastly and takes all five minutes. That's the fueling

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Speaker 1: time five minutes versus ten times longer. Once you think

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Speaker 1: through the logistics on what that means, set aside whether

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Speaker 1: or not you as a consumer are willing on average

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Speaker 1: to spend forty minutes to refuel your vehicle rather than

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Speaker 1: five minutes or six minutes. Set aside whether that there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people that would put up with that.

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Speaker 1: Think about the logistic of the fueling station where it's

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Speaker 1: just this is a this is sort of like a

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Speaker 1: you know, kids play Catris the game. You think about

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Speaker 1: how many fuel pumps do I need if I operate

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Speaker 1: a fueling station. If each car that pulls up takes

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Speaker 1: five minutes to fill up at peak time, say you

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Speaker 1: need six or eight pumps right now peak time, each

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Speaker 1: person is going to take forty minutes to fill up.

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Speaker 1: How many pumps do you need? Well, this is not

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Speaker 1: rocket science. Ten times the number and each pump plus

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Speaker 1: twice as much as a regular fuel pump. So I

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Speaker 1: need ten times the number of pumps, each cost twice

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Speaker 1: as much. So the building station has increased its capital

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Speaker 1: costs by what he folds to duplicate the gasoline. So

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Speaker 1: do you if that efficacy here at util? This this

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Speaker 1: is just you know, as I said to the the committee,

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Speaker 1: I said, you can do that. It's not like it's impossible.

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Speaker 1: It's just not a good idea. It's very inconvenient, very expensive.

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Speaker 1: It's a very bad idea. The market is not going

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Speaker 1: to accept that, and people are being naive about this.

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Speaker 1: This is not an anti ev position. This is just

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Speaker 1: the engineering and what the systems allow. You mean common sense, Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we could call it common sense, but I wouldn't like

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Speaker 1: insult Congress. I'm sorry, come on, take me next time.

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Speaker 1: Come on, take take me next time. I want to

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Speaker 1: go so very old Mark Plane and Will Roger's lines

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Speaker 1: about common sense and Congress, But I won't go there right, yeah, please, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're we're on in Washington. We've got a

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Speaker 1: couple of Washington affiliates, so we might hear from somebody,

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Speaker 1: you never know, Um, you know, And I'm listening to

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Speaker 1: you explain this about how you'll need so many more

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Speaker 1: charging stations, and all I'm thinking about is the amount

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Speaker 1: of real estate, you know, the physical plant, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: the size. You know, in Texas, we can probably come

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Speaker 1: up with the space. But Rhode Island's going to lose out. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not gonna work out. Urban areas they

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Speaker 1: have the space. Look, the truth is in rural America,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of space around a lot of filling stations.

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Speaker 1: You could probably do that. It's not but it's it's

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Speaker 1: going to be a visual blight. That's one thing. Maybe

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Speaker 1: nobody cares. I kind of care. But it'll be very expensive.

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Speaker 1: People are being naive about the scale of these things.

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Speaker 1: This administration has a lot of money in the infrastructure

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Speaker 1: build to spend billions of dollars building more charging stations.

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Speaker 1: But again, if you do the arithmetic, this is not mathematics,

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Speaker 1: this is arithmetic. If you do the arithmetic, the billions

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Speaker 1: of dollars that the administration is going to spend on

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Speaker 1: subsidizing and building charging stations won't be enough to build

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Speaker 1: enough charging stations for the electric vehicles that the administration

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Speaker 1: would like to have in the federal fleet, which is

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Speaker 1: point all one percent of the total fleet of vehicles

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Speaker 1: in America. It won't be enough to keep those vehicles

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Speaker 1: charged on a normal refueling basis. So it's it's a

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Speaker 1: very there's people forget they're sort of scaled. There's a

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Speaker 1: couple hundred million vehicles in America. There are more licensed

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Speaker 1: or more vehicles, and there are licensed drivers. It's a

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Speaker 1: lot of vehicles. So if you put a few million

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Speaker 1: electric vehicles on the road, that's a lot. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's a practicing, it's it's it's not it's not nothing.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't change everything. And if you want to

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Speaker 1: change everything, you have to spend extraordinary amounts of money,

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Speaker 1: a lot of hardware, a lot of time. It's not

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Speaker 1: like we can we can't do it? Is that should

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Speaker 1: we do it? Do you want to spend that much money?

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Speaker 1: And for what purpose? I mean, any other thing I

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Speaker 1: pointed out is manufacturing electric vehicles means that you're essentially

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Speaker 1: importing the key materials to make the batteries because we

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Speaker 1: don't expand mining in America. So it's the equivalent of

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Speaker 1: manufacturing conventional vehicles in America and importing all the gasoline

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Speaker 1: and minerals are imported, and it's coming from and it's

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Speaker 1: coming from other places from us. Right, hey, Mark, tell

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Speaker 1: you what sit tight? Let me pull over and take

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Speaker 1: this pause. Hold that thought. I'm Ron Anading of the

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Speaker 1: car Doctor here with the one and only Mark Mills.

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Speaker 1: Will both be back right after this. Don't go away

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Speaker 1: for the best in car advice. Give Ron a call

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Speaker 1: eight by five five zero nine nine zero zero. Now

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Speaker 1: back Torn And we're joined this hour by Mark Mills,

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Speaker 1: who is talking to us about EVS and some of

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Speaker 1: his recent testimony in front of the U. S. House

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Speaker 1: Committee on Agriculture. Mark, you know when we took the pause,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about charge rates and and and the

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Speaker 1: abilities of of different size stations. I was doing some

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Speaker 1: math and and talking about it and thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: So if it's forty minutes to charge an average are

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Speaker 1: and you had a twenty pump, a twenty station recharging facility,

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Speaker 1: I think you can do like six cars in a

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Speaker 1: twenty four hour period if my math was right. Um,

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Speaker 1: well if you cantbsequently, But the way to look at

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Speaker 1: this is it's a very old industry, near or nearly

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Speaker 1: a century into figuring out the logistics on how to

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Speaker 1: refuel vehicles for the average citizen. So just go to

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Speaker 1: the average you know, showy station. How many how many

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Speaker 1: pumps do you see and whatever? Whatever you see. That's

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Speaker 1: if each of those you had to spend forty minutes at,

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Speaker 1: that wouldn't be enough. It's just it's obvious complicated because

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Speaker 1: they figured out they figured out the mechanics for their

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Speaker 1: peak loading quite quite uh quite a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: So if you were you know, if it's forty minutes,

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Speaker 1: and then your face with the problem. I think that

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Speaker 1: if you're in the rural part of the country. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is a rural part of the country. E V

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Speaker 1: electric theory conversation we're having, right, Um, you have to

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Speaker 1: get that electricity there to actually be able to charge

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Speaker 1: the e V vehicle just because you have the supercharger,

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Speaker 1: you don't necessarily have enough infrastructure to support that. Well,

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Speaker 1: you put your finger on the hidden costs in this.

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Speaker 1: Never mind the cost of the these are ken Hunter

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Speaker 1: Killawatt class even Megalock class chargers. These are really uh

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Speaker 1: significant industrial class electrical infrastructures. The distribution grid in the

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Speaker 1: in the rural area cannot support that kind of power loading.

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Speaker 1: Put differently, I mean charging a car. I'm being very simplistic,

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Speaker 1: but there's roughly the electric load of a whole house

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Speaker 1: that's there. They're but co equal in terms of what

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Speaker 1: you need for the transformers, the power systems, control systems.

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Speaker 1: So you need to add to the math if you had,

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Speaker 1: you know, a gas station with the pumps that pop

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Speaker 1: gasing are very low energy, so you're not you're not

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Speaker 1: putting worth neighborhood's worth of houses worth electric demand in

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Speaker 1: a single fueling station, So you have to upgrade the

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Speaker 1: entire distribution system electric the local electric grid to handle them.

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Speaker 1: That will cost a lot of money. Again, one can

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Speaker 1: do it, but the system is not designed for that.

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Speaker 1: It's not built for that. Now, somebody will have to

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Speaker 1: pay for that, presumably rate payer as well. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's not you want to put people to pay for anything, ultimately,

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Speaker 1: our consumers and taxpayers, but that that factor alone is

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Speaker 1: probably the single biggest cost and impediment kind of things

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Speaker 1: we're talking about, especially in world distribution looks which are

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Speaker 1: not designed to handle that kind of additional load. Do

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Speaker 1: you hear the stories regarding you know, when I talk

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Speaker 1: about this, when I get comments from listeners, and I'll

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Speaker 1: have I'll see articles in the news as well reference

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Speaker 1: over the air charging ability. At some point I made

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Speaker 1: him to look at that. Well, So here this is

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Speaker 1: the the long time dream with electricity is to be

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Speaker 1: able to deliver electric power without wires. And we can

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Speaker 1: do that. It can be done. It's m magnetic coupling,

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Speaker 1: inductive TRUMPI, inductive charging, it's magnetic fields, you can broadcast microwaves.

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Speaker 1: All these things are aren't doable. But let's this is

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Speaker 1: and I apologize, this is like a physics one on

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Speaker 1: one lesson, and I apologize. I was trained as a physicist,

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Speaker 1: but I don't practice physics anymore. Really, But let's just

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Speaker 1: do this. The two different aspects of this one is

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Speaker 1: whether you plug the car in with a cord or

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Speaker 1: drive it over a wireless charger. And inductive like you

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Speaker 1: know everybody's phone now can charge by just putting on

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Speaker 1: a magnetic pads. It's a magnetic coupling. Doesn't change the

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Speaker 1: power requirement's the fact they go up. They go up

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Speaker 1: somewhat because the coupling efficiency of doing over the air

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Speaker 1: charging is lower than this direct coupling, as you might imagine.

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Speaker 1: It just is so you have to have actually more

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Speaker 1: power to do that, but doesn't change the power level

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Speaker 1: significantly in any direction. It's a little higher, but whatever.

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Speaker 1: So that doesn't solve the problem. Then the bigger, the

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Speaker 1: bigger issue is whether or not you can do that

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Speaker 1: cost effective organdistance. Does it really matter to you if

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Speaker 1: you pulled up to a gas station and you parked

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Speaker 1: over a pad to charge you, or you had to

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Speaker 1: get out and plug something into your car, practical matter.

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Speaker 1: You're still going to be there forty minutes and it

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Speaker 1: makes no difference. And then then you have the theory

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Speaker 1: that I can just charge you car while you're driving it.

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Speaker 1: So the French actually built a highway with a magnetic

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Speaker 1: charging system buried in the highways, kind of like a rail.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what Mark called that foot. I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to interrupt you, storry. Hold that when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we gotta take a hard break here. Hold that thought.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll finish up. We'll pick up

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Speaker 1: right where you left off. I want to hear the

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Speaker 1: end result of this. I'm running any of the Car

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Speaker 1: Doctor here with Mark Mills. We're talking to Evis. Don't

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Speaker 1: go away. There's more to come right after this. Welcome back,

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Speaker 1: Running the Car Doctor here with Mark Mills, Senior Fellow

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Speaker 1: at the Manhattan Institute. Mark. When we took the break, um,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about, well, I guess PM pure magic,

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Speaker 1: the idea of charging a car, you know, wirelessly. You're

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Speaker 1: driving down a road and you were telling us about

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Speaker 1: how the French had built a road that would charge

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Speaker 1: an electric feedle. I think is where you were going. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's engineers to do magic. You know, you know this.

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm a physicist, but the magic of engineers,

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Speaker 1: as they always find a workaround. The issue isn't whether

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Speaker 1: you can do something. That's what it costs, whether it

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Speaker 1: makes sense, right, I mean, that's always what it comes

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Speaker 1: down to for consumers and any practical product. You can

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Speaker 1: lay in magnetic charging cables in the road and continuously

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Speaker 1: recharge the battery in the car, It's it's possible, it's

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Speaker 1: just extremely expensive. So it's just a bad idea with

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Speaker 1: all the kinds of complications in terms of efficiencies and

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Speaker 1: energy use and interference, and then how and how would

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Speaker 1: the weather affect that right, and you know, the snow

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Speaker 1: loadings and moving it's all kinds of reasons of the

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Speaker 1: internal combustion engine. It's gonna be around for a long time.

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Speaker 1: You know, I want to put in a plug for

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Speaker 1: my book because I talked about I felt like I'm

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Speaker 1: a pessimist here. My new book, as you know, The

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Speaker 1: Cloud Revolution, talks about where technology is going. And what

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Speaker 1: I point out in my book is that you know,

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Speaker 1: there will be lots of more electric vehicles, and the

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Speaker 1: lithium battery is a magical thing. The three guys that

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Speaker 1: really made it possible got Nobel Price a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: They deserved it changed the world. But changing how a

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Speaker 1: car is fueled in terms of an economic revolution is

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Speaker 1: roughly comfortable with changing what we fed horses before the

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Speaker 1: dawn of the age of the automobile. It's still a car.

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Speaker 1: If the car itself was the economic and social revolution,

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Speaker 1: how what it eats as the impact. It's relevant, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't change the world any more than changing what

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Speaker 1: the food was for a horse would have The real

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Speaker 1: revolutions and transportation are you know, are right in front

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Speaker 1: of us there. They've been sort of pilloried over the years,

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Speaker 1: like you know, where's my flying car? Are these kinds

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Speaker 1: of things? We know that drones, never mind flying cars

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Speaker 1: are possible cargo carrying drones. They're starting to be used

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Speaker 1: all over the world for critical cargo and packages, including

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Speaker 1: food delivery. In in Australia, you know, a rural areas

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Speaker 1: expurban areas, and the idea of a flying cars no

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Speaker 1: longer but it's an air taxi. It's no longer crazy.

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Speaker 1: The materials, the energy, energetics, the control systems for safety

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Speaker 1: are now clearly possible. We now have to deal with

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Speaker 1: the engineering challenge of making it affordable and making it

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Speaker 1: quiet enough, and all the mechanics logistics around the infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: They're not trivial. But we're well past the era of

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Speaker 1: thinking could it happen? So that will be a revolution,

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Speaker 1: that would be a big deal, and that's clearly coming.

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Speaker 1: Not tomorrow, but it's it's it's coming. So I wrote

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Speaker 1: a lot about technology revolutions in my book, in part

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Speaker 1: because I think people are focused on the wrong things,

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Speaker 1: or you're all excited about Tesla's great car, great company

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Speaker 1: happened personally, like SpaceX is his business much more than

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Speaker 1: his card business. That's my my bias as an old

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Speaker 1: space nerd. But good for him, he really accomplished something remarkable.

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Speaker 1: But it's not going to change the world. Cheap space travel,

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Speaker 1: good drones will, robots will. In fact, Elon Musk, if

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Speaker 1: your listeners haven't paid attention to this thing, you could

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Speaker 1: use the magic Google machine to just take a look

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Speaker 1: at what Elon Musk has been saying recently about anthropomorphic robots,

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Speaker 1: I mean robots that can walk around do useful things.

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Speaker 1: He initially sort of looked like he was joking, teasing

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Speaker 1: about building a robot. He made it, Claire, He's not teasing,

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Speaker 1: He's not joking. Uh we we you know it's and again,

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Speaker 1: I have a couple of chapters in my book about robots.

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Speaker 1: Robots have been the subject of science fiction, well for

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Speaker 1: him or two years. But we can now build those things.

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Speaker 1: You can see them again on YouTube. Are there practical

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Speaker 1: ones that are horrible today? No, But when the derail

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Speaker 1: wagon came out and I think it was eighteen nine six,

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Speaker 1: I got the late eighteen nineties. Uh, it was the

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Speaker 1: first American electernal combustion first car in America. They sold thousands,

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Speaker 1: didn't change the world, but you know, it took a

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Speaker 1: couple of decades, and Ford came along with the Model

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Speaker 1: t changed the world. I think maybe Elon Musk is

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Speaker 1: the Henry Ford of our time. But it won't be

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Speaker 1: around the electric car. It's gonna be around a robot.

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Speaker 1: I think anyway cars but no, but robots are like cars.

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Speaker 1: They're autonomous things that increase the mobility and utility of

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Speaker 1: our economy. What a wonderful thing. Well, you know, no,

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Speaker 1: you're not. You're not wrong, because there is going to

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Speaker 1: be that next great thing. But the problem with the

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Speaker 1: ev is, you know, one little thing upsets the apple cart.

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Speaker 1: Was the first year material costs went up for that

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Speaker 1: electric car, and now in twenty two they're talking like

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Speaker 1: lithium battery costs are supposed to rise again this year. Well,

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Speaker 1: so this is this is the great fiction that everybody

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Speaker 1: is ignored. You put your finger on it. See, we've

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Speaker 1: been told that batteries are going to get cheaper, cheaper fast,

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Speaker 1: and make electric cars cheaper than internal combustion inches currently

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Speaker 1: on average, depending on the car and how they're made

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Speaker 1: is five to ten dollars per card more expensive entirely

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Speaker 1: because of the battery and the additional electronics that are

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Speaker 1: in the electric vehicle. But we've been told monum and

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Speaker 1: iacally that they're going to get cheaper and fast. But

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Speaker 1: here's the single fact that you need to know, and

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Speaker 1: this is verifiable fact. We're now so good at making

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Speaker 1: batteries courtesy Belond Musk that between sixties and seven percent

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Speaker 1: of the cost of making a battery electric car is

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Speaker 1: tied up in the commodity materials the minerals needed to

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Speaker 1: build it. Once you know that, you then have to

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Speaker 1: know a second fact. But to think about this, that

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Speaker 1: means that even if the manufacturing process cost nothing, it's

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Speaker 1: basically all about the materials cost all the materials copper, lithium, callbalt, manganese, nickel,

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Speaker 1: these are commodities and the commodities for decades, about centuries

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Speaker 1: to shift the world's vehicle fleet from internal combustion to

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Speaker 1: electric were required an increase in the mining of these

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Speaker 1: minerals from four four tho percent. This would be the

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Speaker 1: biggest increase in mineral mining essentially in history and no

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Speaker 1: time in history, as an increase in demand for commodity.

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Speaker 1: Cause the commodity go down in price, it goes up

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Speaker 1: and that's already happened. So you're absolutely right last year

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Speaker 1: that the battery prices gone up, they're going up this year.

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Speaker 1: It also means, by the way the solar panel prices

427
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: have gone up there in two years, when turbine prices

428
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: are up for all the same reasons, by the way

429
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: the mineral inputs and critically, and then again, this is

430
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 1: not me saying this, This is the International Energy Agency,

431
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: which is an advocate of the expanded use of electric vehicles.

432
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: They pointed out that the world is not planning to

433
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: mind enough minerals to produce quantity of electric vehicles that

434
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: all the world's governments want to have happened. What's not happening. Yeah,

435
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: it's just it's just uh well, it's back to that

436
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: PM that pure magic statement. Right, it's just going to

437
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: be it's just gonna fall out of this guy. Hey, Mark,

438
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: sit tight, let me pull over and when we come back,

439
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: we'll wrap this conversation up. We're here with the Great

440
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: Mark Mills and Rondinating the car Doctor. I'll both be

441
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: back right after this. Don't go away. Welcome back. We're

442
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: here with Mark Mills. I'm running any in the car,

443
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: doctor Mark. You know, I think we should close here.

444
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: In your closing comments to the testimony you gave to

445
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: the US House on February twelfth of this year, you said,

446
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: for the record, a world going from today's ten million

447
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: to having five million vs on the roads would eliminate

448
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: only about pent of world oil use. And bringing the

449
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: realities back to rural America, if half of all rural

450
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: homeowners can be induced to replace their second vehicle with

451
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: an electric pickup truck, that would reduce US oil consumption

452
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: by barely three percent and the world consumption by half percent.

453
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: It would have even less impact, perhaps not on global

454
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: carbon dioxide emissions. How did they react to that? How

455
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: did they react to any of this that? Did? It

456
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: didn't make any did it did it make any penetration

457
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: or was it talking to the wall? I guess no

458
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: kind of ration. I'm talking about wall. Look, but I

459
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: think in that setting what they were focused on is

460
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: how to distribute the large s courtesy to taxpayers in

461
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: the bipartisan Infrastructure bill, to give money out to people

462
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: to build stuff like charging stations, so that everybody's pretty

463
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: giddy about all the billions of dollars I can now

464
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: give out and spend it, and that that was sort

465
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: of the sense of it. And to be fair, Uh,

466
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: you know, everybody's respectful, but no one really probes the questions,

467
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: partly because and I and as you know, you can

468
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: read my testimony and is public information. I do try

469
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: to be diplomatic. I don't try to be flipped. The

470
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: truth is, the facts are not in favor of this

471
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: idea of this grand transition away from of combustion engines.

472
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: It's just not going to happen. It's not like I

473
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: don't want it to happen, or I oppose it some

474
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: for moral reasons, or there's nothing to do with that.

475
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: It's just the engineering and mining. It's not happening. It's

476
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: not going to happen. But in the attempt to do it,

477
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: we're going to spend lots of money, a lot of

478
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: people get enriched, so you end up with this bizarre

479
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: kabookie dance. So they don't they really don't ask a

480
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: lot of questions. Um something. The questions are not directed

481
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: towards the veracity of the assertions I'm making because again

482
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: I'm using data from the u N International Energy Agency

483
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: from geological surveys. These are not disputable facts. You could

484
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: have a different opinion on whether you like the facts,

485
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: but they're not disputable. You don't get into that. So

486
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: it's a it's a little bit surreal. I mean, I

487
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: work in the venture world as well. You know, we

488
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: have a fund that we invest in software for energy companies,

489
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: and I work in the I used to work in

490
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: real real world and made things and battens. In the

491
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: political policy world, a little bit of I guess what

492
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: you're called intellectual whiplash is a very different dynamic. You

493
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: could be a cynic, but I'm not. I'm pretty realistic

494
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: about these things. They have a they have a timeline

495
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: to them. It's all different, and I think reality is

496
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: starting to bite. The trouble Europe is in right now

497
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: with respect to energy dependencies on Russia are directly a

498
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: consequence of being naive about what alternative energy can do.

499
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: The oil and gas dependencies, it's the directly related It's

500
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: not hyperbole to say that, and it's very serious. The seriousness,

501
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: seriousness of this with respect to geopolitics and the readibly

502
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 1: high costs of Europeans are paying for their energy now

503
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: because of their policies starting to come home, and it's

504
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: those things will have political impact. So I I'm optimistic

505
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: that will will rebound back to reality. Doesn't mean we

506
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: will have lots of electric cars and windmills and stuff,

507
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: but we're gonna also have lots of oil and gas

508
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: being used. That's sort of lots of lots of cars,

509
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: a lot more internal combustion engines because they just worked well.

510
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: We have great machines. We've just we've just got to

511
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: sort of learn our lesson, and it's going to be

512
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: a hard lesson to learn. Mark Mills. The name of

513
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: the book again once again, let's give it a let's

514
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: give it a plug here in our last minute. Where

515
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: can the listeners go get it? And what's the name

516
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: of it? It's The Cloud Revolution by Mark Females that

517
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: all the usual great booksellers, and the subtitle it includes

518
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: the phrase the Roaring twenties because I've remained stubbornly optimistic

519
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: that we will emerge from the chaosa today and have

520
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 1: a great, a great center, a great decade, and then

521
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: a century after that. Wonderful Mark, always a pleasure, sir.

522
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: We appreciate your time. You're very generous with it. You

523
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: be well and we'll talk again soon. Thanks for having

524
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: me on. You're very welcome talk again always always. Um. Yeah,

525
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, and I've got to tell you, guys, we

526
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: could we could have gone on. I would need a

527
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: ten hour show to to finish with this because the

528
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: testimony is so eye open, and we're gonna figure out

529
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: a way. Maybe we'll put it up on the Car

530
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: Doctor show dot com website and make it a downloadable PDF.

531
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: I'll talk to Tom about the technical aspects of that

532
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: once involved in that. But we'll figure out a way

533
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: to get it to you. Um. But I'm sure it's

534
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: if you search for it. It's Mark P. Mills, Senior Fellow,

535
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: Manhattan Institute, Testimony given before the U. S. House Committee

536
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: on Agriculture on February twelve two. I'm Rondady in the

537
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: Car Doctor. We're gonna pull over and take a pause.

538
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: I'll be back right after this. Welcome back, ran name

539
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: the Car Doctor. Thanks for joining us this our you

540
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: know a little bit different format. Uh, it's you know,

541
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: when we get Mark, when we find when he finds

542
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: the time to carve us out sometimes so we can

543
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: talk to him. We try to, you know, get as

544
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: much information out of him as we can. And today

545
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: we were talking about his testimony in front of the U. S.

546
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: House Committee on Agriculture. Uh, so many things we didn't

547
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: touch on that, you know, we could have gone on

548
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: and on and on. Like I said, I'll try and

549
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: get his testimony up. Either we'll make it downloadable or

550
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: we'll get it up on Facebook or our website or something.

551
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 1: In the next couple of weeks. We'll figure out how

552
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: to do that. More technology. Um, one of the things

553
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: that he talked about in front of the U. S.

554
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: House was in the event of grid outage, with an

555
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: F one fifty lightning that's say, only half charged, one

556
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: would need to have on site a Jenerac or Tesla

557
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: power wall with enough stored power to fill up to

558
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: pick up his battery. A power wall with that much

559
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: storage half a tank he has in quotation marks cost

560
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: over thirty thou dollars. The other alternative for the rural

561
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: homeowner would be to keep a small tank of fuel

562
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: on hand and a five thousand dollar generated to charge

563
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: the truck. And then he goes on to say, finally,

564
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: none of this isn't anything about the practical utility of

565
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: a truck with a fuel system the battery that weighs

566
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: one ton instead of a hundred and fifty pounds. The

567
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: ladder is the weight of a full gas a lean

568
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: tank for a conventional truck with the same range. Of course,

569
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: for rural homeowners with two vehicles, it is possible many

570
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: people would choose to own the second vehicle with limited

571
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: emergency fuel capability and more limited cargo capacity if there

572
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: are no penalties because of subsidies. You know, it's not

573
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: that I'm anti e V. I'm just trying to plan

574
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: out the practical ability of it. You know, two and

575
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: two always has to make four right. It's numbers don't lie,

576
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: Math doesn't lie. Um As Mark says, it's got to

577
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: be arithmetic. It's got to make sense. And you know,

578
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: it's funny. I listened to him, and I get these

579
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: visions of that those professors I had in college, that

580
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: they knew the answers before I asked the question, and

581
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: they knew what the question was gonna be because they're

582
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: not sure of themselves. And there's just something I don't

583
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: want to say. It's unsettling, but there's something interesting about

584
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: his position on this. He's just telling us the numbers

585
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: don't work, and yet we're barreling along into this head first,

586
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: so you don't listen. I like he said, he's right.

587
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: Tesla built the heck of a car, and the engineering

588
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: of that battery is second to none. And he's the

589
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: guy that everybody's chasing that all the other car companies

590
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: are trying to create and become. And you know, and

591
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 1: they will. Will the electric vehicle, make the internal combustion

592
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: and go to the internal combustion engine, go the way

593
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: of the Dodo. I don't think so. I you know,

594
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: because again, unless there's a lot of PM pure magic

595
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: out there, it's just not gonna happen. It's gotta make sense.

596
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: Thanks for sticking with us as sour. I hope you

597
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: got something out of it. I know I do. And

598
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: there's always it's been a pleasure to be here with you.

599
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: Until next week, I'm running any of the car doctor,

600
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 1: reminding you who mechanics aren't expensive, they're priceless. Let's see

601
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: you