1 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature, future production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: and evolutionary biology, and today on the show, we're talking 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: about the one thing that separates man from animal tools. Wait, no, primates, 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: dolphins and birds and other animals use tools. Let's see, 6 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: Oh I know, makeup? Wait, bearded vultures they roll around 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: in red soil to give themselves blush. Okay, alright, economics, 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: that's got to be a human only kind of thing, 9 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: or is it? That's right? Today we're talking about whether 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: animals could have money before you shake down your local squirrel. 11 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: We're not talking about dollars or butt coin or ethereum 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: or whatever, but whether animals could have a currency, make 13 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: trades and understand when they're getting griffed it. Discover this 14 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: more as we answer the age old question. You can 15 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: have an invisible hand, but what about an invisible fall. 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: Joining me today is professor of economics at Collegio Carlo Alberto, who, 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: coincidental is also my husband, which is pure coincidence. No 18 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: nepotism here, folks, welcome Dr Brett McCauley. Hey, thanks for 19 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: having me so I think that sometimes people think of 20 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: economics as simply money math and you know, just counting dollars, 21 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: proticting the stocks, stocks and bonds, stocks and bonds. But 22 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: a lot of it is about studying human behavior and psychology. Right, Yeah, 23 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: that's right. I'd say just about all of economics is 24 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: about studying human behavior. And so, of course we're most 25 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: well known US economists and the popular imagination as people 26 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 1: who do comment on and on prices and stocks and 27 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: so forth. But but really, what what at least does 28 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: academic research economists do is is study all all kinds 29 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: of human behavior, and we study it from a particular perspective. 30 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: We we like to use quantitative models and econometrics and statistics. 31 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, so so economists asked questions that often relate 32 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: to public policy or human behavior. So you know, maybe 33 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: you study, maybe we study sometimes something about immigration, or 34 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: about individual choices and behavioral biases. All many of these 35 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: things fall under the sphere of study of economics. Of course, 36 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: they are also studied by other fields very well. But uh, 37 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, we're we're a social science ultimately, so we 38 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: cover all manner of social phenomena. So when you look 39 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: at a human being. You don't just see a fleshy 40 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: sack of money and uh numbers walking around right right? Yeah, okay, great, good, 41 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: good to know. So it is interesting. So economics is 42 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: largely about human behavior, but it can also be about 43 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: animal behavior. So behavioral economists did a study on tufted capuchins. 44 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: So tufted capuchins are adorable South American monkeys. They live 45 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: in trees in tropical rainforests. They have this long, prehensile tail, 46 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: fluffy brown and black fur, with tufts of black fur 47 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: on their head that looks like a crazy sort of 48 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: Elvis hairstyle, completely side burns. They weigh from around five 49 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: to ten pounds or two to five kim so they're 50 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: they're little guys. They're they're pretty tiny. They're not They're 51 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: not teeny tiny, but they're not huge. They are highly 52 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: social and live in groups of around ten to fifteen individuals, 53 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: and even though they are only a distant primate relative 54 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: of ours, they are highly intelligent. They seem to use 55 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: tools such as sticks to dig up food, cracking cash, 56 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: you nuts with a hammer and anvil stone set up. 57 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: They even select tools based on their heft and the 58 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: task they have to do so. For instance, cash you 59 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: nuts ripen over time, but when they're freshest they have 60 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: a toxic substance in them that causes skin irritation. So 61 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: Capuchin's use larger tools on the fresher cashews, despite them 62 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,119 Speaker 1: being easier to crack open, possibly to protect their little 63 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: monkey paws from this toxic irritant. They're also known to 64 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: understand sponges, using paper towels or dry biscuits to sop 65 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: up juice and then suck the juice out of a 66 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: sponge like a kind of weird popsicle. How do you 67 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: think they originally learned the sponge technique? I mean, I 68 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: I would guess just trial and air like that. There's 69 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: a lot of natural curiosity of these highly socially intelligent animals, 70 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: and they pick something up and then they you know, 71 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: dun't get in something else. Then when they put it 72 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: back in their mouths, they realize, hey, this now is 73 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: a is a juicy biscuit, and then other Capucheans may 74 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: copy that behavior. So they're really good at sort of 75 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: just generating ideas themselves and trying things and being really curious, 76 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: and they're also good at copying others in their social 77 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: group and learning from them. Uh, they've even been known 78 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: to manufacture tools like very primitive sharp stone flakes that 79 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: they used to cut away barriers to food. They break 80 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: off a stone flake from a rock which is now 81 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: very sharp, and then they can kind of cut away 82 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: at anything that's blocking their food. So it's the stone 83 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: is kind of already sharper, they sharpen it, they sharpen it, 84 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: so they will chip the stone to create like a 85 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: flake and then use that flake to cut away at something. Well, 86 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's pretty high level thinking. So the behavior 87 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: of actually cutting the barrier, I would say it has 88 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: only been documented in captive individuals and so it's unknown 89 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: whether this is a wider spread phenomenon. And some researchers 90 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: would contend that the creation of the stone flakes is inadvertent, 91 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: so like they're using the stones and a mortar and 92 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: pestel kind of technique and then breaking off the stone 93 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: and creating the stone flakes as a byproduct or another theories, 94 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: they like to crack open these stones so that they 95 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: can lick at sort of the inside, like there may 96 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: be some kind of nutritive or vitamin like lichens inside. 97 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: But some contend like that they don't then use these 98 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: stone flakes as tools. But because it's a behavior that's 99 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: been seen in captive individuals, it seems like pretty likely 100 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: that similar behaviors may be found in wild individuals. And 101 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: the idea that it's not not a form of tool 102 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: creation just because they happened upon by accident is kind 103 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: of It's a little strange to me because like, how 104 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: else do you learn how to make tools other than 105 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: like doing stuff, smashing things together and then seeing what 106 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: it can be used for. So I think it's still 107 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: really intelligent. It falls a little bit short of like 108 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: the human ability to like take one tool, use another 109 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: tool to refine that, and then use another tool to 110 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: refine that, and keep going until we get televisions and 111 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: Twitter at least no monkey Twitter. I thank god, those 112 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: lucky little little munchkins. So they are intelligent, But do 113 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: they understand economics or at least do they act like 114 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: humans do when they are exposed to economic shocks? So 115 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: what is a shock? And economics? Is it when Alan 116 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: Greenspan like charges up a car battery and then attaches 117 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: it to you and you know, let's it rip. Yeah, 118 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: that's what he would do during Senate Banking Committee meetings 119 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: to make sure no one question and them too hard. 120 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: I don't understand any of that. So, so what is 121 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: an economics shock. So a shock and economics is it's 122 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: not so different from our our colloquial understanding of a shock. 123 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: It's just something that is surprising that happens to economic agents. 124 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: Surprising in the sense that they couldn't anticipate it. So 125 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: an example of an economic shock would be something like 126 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: the sudden rise in gas prices that has happened over 127 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: the last few months, and most people didn't anticipate that, 128 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: and therefore they have to react in real time to 129 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: the change in prices and and sort of reallocate or 130 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: change their their driving patterns or whatever. So yeah, this 131 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: is actually what researchers did to Capuchins. They raised their 132 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: gas prices and they tried to drive their little Capuchin 133 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: cars and they were really upset. Now, so there is 134 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: a researcher Keith Chin and his co authors, there are 135 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: a group behavioral economists, neuroscientists, and psychologists who can get along. Also, 136 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: they can study the behavior of tufted Capuchins when given 137 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: economic shocks and choices, and to do this, they had 138 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: to give the monkeys a fiat currency. So, Professor Brett, 139 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: what is a fiat currency? I'm glad you asked. A 140 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: fiat currency is just some medium of exchange, so some item. 141 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: It could be digital, it could be physical, which allows 142 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: one to easily trade between people, but the actual medium 143 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: of exchange, the currency has no intrinsic value. So it 144 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: would be like if I suddenly issued creature books, which 145 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: is just like a picture of my smiling face on 146 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: a piece of paper given the thumbs up, and this 147 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: is like, this is one creature book and you can 148 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: exchange it for one podcast. Yeah, exactly. Well no, but 149 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: then it would be backed by a podcast, so would 150 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: have the podcast standard, right, very much more stable than 151 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: the gold standard, any standard, the podcast standard. Okay, So 152 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: if if I had a Katie or if I had 153 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: a creature box, uh, and it's not backed by the 154 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: podcast episode, but the creature book you can use to 155 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: purchase any and all you know, podcast related goods, right. 156 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the fundamental premise of the fiat currency is 157 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: that it has value, because we all believe it has value, 158 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: and we do all believe that creature books have a 159 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: lot of value. Go to www dot creature books bu 160 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: x dot, or don't go there. It's not an actual 161 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: I don't have an actual website called that. So if 162 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: you go there and it's all spam and viruses, it's 163 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: not my fault. So uh. The Capucheans were trained to 164 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: have a fiat currency, so they were trained that they 165 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: could exchange tokens for a variety of food rewards, and 166 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: the researchers allowed the monkeys to gamble with their tokens 167 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: for food when the gambling was framed as gambling for 168 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: a bonus, so sometimes they would receive more food than 169 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: originally displayed. They were more likely to be willing to 170 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 1: take the gamble. But when the gambling was framed as 171 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: a loss, so food would be taken away from the display. 172 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: Even if the final amount of food given to the 173 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: capuchin was the same as the food given and the 174 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: like bonus gambles, they were more avoiding of the lossy gambles. So, yes, 175 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: the researchers did teach capuchin's to gamble. Yes, they have 176 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: led these poor little monkeys down to a life of 177 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: sin advice. Um, but here is the setups. So you 178 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: have a capuchein faced with two dealers, just like you 179 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: would at any kind of casino that you find in 180 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: the middle of the rainforest. So one dealer is the 181 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: bonus guy. He displays one apple slice, and when the 182 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: Capuchein gives him his token, the dealer has a chance 183 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: of giving the capuchin either just that one apple slice 184 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: or hey, hooray, you win an extra apple slice. On 185 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: the other side of the room is the lost dealer. 186 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: He displays two apple slices. The monkey gives him a token, 187 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: and he either gives him both the apple slices or 188 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: takes one away. So in either case you have the 189 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: same odds of winning two apple slices. It is just 190 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: presented in different ways, either as adding a slice or 191 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: taking one away. And the capucheans far preferred the bonus dealer. 192 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: They liked winning the extra slice, perceiving this as a 193 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: bonus rather than perceiving it as being taken away. And 194 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: it shows that these capuchins are capable of somewhat human 195 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: reactions to a gambling situation in terms of loss a 196 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: version and reference dependence. So what is loss of version 197 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: and reference dependence? So, so reference dependence just means that 198 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: you you have some reference, which determines how you view 199 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: certain tradeoffs or choices. So like, for example, you and 200 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: I just moved from Los Angeles to Turn, and so 201 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: our reference for certain qualities of food like Mexican food 202 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: is dependent on what they made in Los Angeles. And 203 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: then when we eat Mexican food in Turn, we just 204 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: get absolutely furious and just tear the place apart. So 205 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: you know that's that's reference dependence. And then loss of 206 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: version is the notion that and these really come from psychology, 207 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: I should I should point out, but loss of version 208 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: is where you'd you might face equal odde of getting 209 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,599 Speaker 1: some payoff in this case one you know, one apple slice, 210 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: but you really hate to lose something much more than 211 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: you enjoy gaining an equivalent amount. So this happened. So 212 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: let's let's go back to the stock market. The the 213 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: the typical economics per view, which is where people really 214 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: really suffer when they when they get some huge, you know, 215 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: big loss to their their portfolio stocks. But when they 216 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: make a lot of money in the stock market, they 217 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: don't get nearly the same amount of satisfaction or enjoyment 218 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: to sort of offset what happened with that huge loss. 219 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: And that's what you see with these monkeys. It seems 220 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: like money is just made for us to suffer because 221 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: like we're it hurts so much more to lose money, 222 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: and we're so much more likely to lose money in 223 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: the stock market. But but I mean, but it's not 224 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: just money, right, because actually this experiment shows that just 225 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: like apples, like that's that has intrinsic value. It's enjoyable 226 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: to eat apples. It's not even money, and there's still 227 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: loss a version. I guess the root of all evil 228 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: isn't money, it's apples. That yeah. That that was from 229 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: the famous Pink Floyd song called Apples. Yeah, I remember 230 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: that one Apples. It's it's a crime. Right now, we're 231 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: going to get copyrights right from from Pink Floyd and 232 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: their famous song Apples. So the capucheons not only displayed 233 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: this like humanlike behavior in terms of this gambling situation, 234 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: they also responded to changes in prices for different food rewards. So, okay, 235 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: new experiment. The capuchins were presented with the same amounts 236 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: of apple, jello, and grape. They showed no preference among 237 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: these food rewards. They liked all of them relatively equally. 238 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: And when given a budget of tokens, they would buy 239 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: them in early equivalent amounts like apple, jello, and grape 240 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: all good. They like to have a variety of these 241 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: foods because they were all they were all tasty, and 242 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: they enjoyed all of them about equivalently. But then the 243 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: experiment ers cut the price of apples by giving them 244 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: an extra apple slice per token. And maybe you could 245 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: explain how did how do the even understand what the 246 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: tokens traded for. It's a combination of showing them what 247 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: happens when you put the token in the tray and 248 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: then reinforcements. So they put the token in the little 249 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: receiving tray, uh, and then they receive a reward. And 250 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: you do that enough and they associate putting the token 251 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: in with getting a reward. And then also, you know, 252 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: if you have sort of different stalls, So this is 253 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: the apple stall, this is the jello stall, this is 254 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: the grape stall. They learned like, oh, if I put 255 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: it in front of this little apple area, I get 256 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: an apple. Or this is the jello stall, I get 257 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: a jell. It's like I mean, essentially like what we 258 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: do with vending machines. So the experiment ers cut the 259 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: price of apples by giving them an extra apple slice 260 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: per token, so it'd be like if you used a 261 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: vending machine. And then suddenly now whenever you press the 262 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: the button for funyans, you got two funyans for the 263 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: price of one. And so, yes, it's the fantasy we 264 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: all dream of. So then the researchers cut the capuchin's budgets, 265 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: so now they don't have as many tokens and totals. 266 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: They're like, hey, I know, we kept giving you, you know, 267 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: ten tokens, but now you're only getting five tokens. And 268 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: so now that these Capucheans were forced to be on 269 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: a budget, the Capucheans responded like a lot of humans do, 270 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: by buying more of the cheaper item, the apple. They realize, okay, 271 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: we're on a budget. We got to tighten our little 272 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: capuchin belts, so now I'm going to buy apple, which 273 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: are the budget item. And this is what we often 274 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: do as humans when we have to go on a budget. 275 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: If we don't have a lot of funds, we will 276 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: buy cheaper things, especially when there are there's like a 277 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: sudden sort of economic shock of having to significantly change 278 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: your budget you go for cheaper items, right, I mean, 279 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: that's just what all of us are doing with this 280 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: whole inflation about and uh increasing prices of gas and 281 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: so forth. And now we're we're buying less less cheesecake 282 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: factory more McDonald's. Right. I don't really like cheesecake, and 283 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: I'm borderline about McDonald's. So you know, if I could. 284 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 1: Katie is not a woman of the people. If I 285 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: could just have some apple slices, he'll be as happy 286 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: as one of these little capuchins. But yeah, I am curious, 287 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: and I couldn't find any of these. But I wonder 288 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: if there are follow up studies or if anyone would 289 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: be interested in doing a follow up study. Winkly to 290 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: all you Copuchan researchers out there that show the compute 291 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: Copuchin show an increase in preference for the more expensive 292 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: food when the apples are no longer on sale, like, 293 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 1: because I think that's sometimes with humans, at least for me, 294 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: and I think with other people too. When something was 295 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: previously expensive and then the price goes down to something 296 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: that fits with the items that were generally in your budget, 297 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: I sometimes would go for the more expensive item that's 298 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: now at a discount because I have this perception that 299 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: this thing is of higher quality because it's more expensive, 300 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: even if that's not true. Right, It's almost like two 301 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: interacting phenomenon. One is reference dependence, so you're you're reference 302 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: point is a higher priced item. But then also this 303 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: notion that price confers the quality of something, so it's like, oh, 304 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: it's a high quality good because it has a high 305 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: you know as a high price. And then when the 306 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: when price drops and it's at a discount, it's like, oh, 307 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: this previously it's this high quality good is now so yeah, 308 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,239 Speaker 1: I think that makes a lot of sense. And the 309 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: reason I want to know if Capuchins do this as 310 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: well is that I'm starting to become suspicious that we're 311 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: all just like little Capuchins and that marketers are taking 312 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: advantage of us, just like these researchers are manipulating and 313 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 1: twisting these Capuchin's behaviors. So I am I am concerned. 314 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: You know, us researchers would never do that to you. 315 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: You you keep winking and like, I'm I want to 316 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: remind you this as an audio podcast, and they can't 317 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: actually see you repeatedly winking and nudging me. But I 318 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: can see them. We're not supposed to tell them that 319 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break and we'll be 320 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: right back. So, uh, professor McCully, you can confirm that 321 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: we have a dog, right we do? Yeah. Do you 322 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: think she understands money? I think she understands treats, which 323 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: in her world. I guess there some equivalent version of money. 324 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: She can be bribed with treats or I guess I 325 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: guess I should put it like she actually extorts us. 326 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: It's not really us bribing her, it's her extorting us. 327 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: It's exchange. It's classic economic exchange. We give her a 328 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: treat and she stops being a bad girl. So there 329 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: is this thing in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations where 330 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: he says, quote, nobody ever saw a dog make a 331 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: fair and deliberate exchange of one bone for another with 332 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: another dog. Nobody ever saw one animal, by its gestures 333 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: and natural cries, signify to another that this is mine, 334 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: that yours. I am willing to give this for that. 335 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: So the study we just discussed proves that this is 336 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: wrong about Capucca ends. But was Adam Smith also wrong 337 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: about dogs? What do you think he did right that? 338 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: Like a hundred years before Darwin was on the scene. 339 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: So the guy was a little ignorant about animals. So 340 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm I'm guessing you're about to tell me that that 341 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: he was wrong about this other thing. That's right, Adam 342 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: Smith was a dumb, stupid poopy head who was wrong 343 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: about everything, all right, But you know, is that too 344 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: too strong? You know, he had some some good ideas, 345 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: some I'm not so up to the up to date ideas. 346 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: Invisible hand more like invisible brain because he doesn't have 347 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: one with wait was and Smith invisible hand man? Yeah? 348 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: Well he yeah, yeah, he's invisible hand man. And I 349 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: guess it would be a good invisible paw joke. I mean, 350 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: you kind of just made it, but then you stepped 351 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: all over I know. Well, you know, I was trying 352 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: to I was trying to think on my feet. It's 353 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: like on your invisible feet, on my invisible feet, and 354 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: that's the problem. My invisible brain didn't kick in. Yeah, 355 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: but um, what I do mean is that Adam Smith 356 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: was a dumb dumb because he was so wrong about 357 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: animals and dogs. We tend to think of dogs is 358 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: giving us unconditional love and infection. Being guileless not being 359 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: little penny pinchers, but they actually are. They can sense 360 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: when things are unfair in an exchange. So researchers did 361 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: an experiment where they included dogs who knew the shake trick, 362 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: so dogs would do the trick whether they were rewarded 363 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: or not, which seemed to indicate that they felt an 364 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: intrinsic reward in completing the trick. So they were really 365 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: well trained. And if they continued to be unrewarded while 366 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: observing other dogs getting rewards, they went on strike and 367 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: they refused to perform the trick anymore. There's kind of 368 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: similar analysis empirical evidence from economics about inequality and how 369 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: much people hate to observe the same sort of thing. 370 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: So there's this common practice in by employers in the 371 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: United States where they make people hide how much they 372 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: earn from other employees because they're afraid that they would 373 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: get jealous. And just like these dogs, employees would not 374 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: That not that we want to compare employees to dogs, 375 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: and I'm just saying the same phenomenon, uh, kind of 376 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: happens where employers know that people hate to see someone 377 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: who they feel like maybe works the same as hard 378 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: as they do, and yet makes more money than they do. 379 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: And so, uh, there's very good reason that they would 380 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: be concerned about that. There is empirical evidence that people 381 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: really resent if they if you're at the same firm 382 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: and you have one employee, you have a couple employees, 383 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: and then suddenly the employees learn about what how much 384 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: everyone is paid. That people really resent when they are 385 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: paid less than other people for seemingly identic coal output. 386 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: And and so dogs seem to have the same kind 387 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: of intrinsic sense of fairness based on what you're saying, Yeah, 388 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: I think this means that dogs should form a union, right, Yeah, again, 389 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: I'm trying to I keep trying to think about invisible paw, 390 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: invisible dog body parts. You'll the invisible How can you 391 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: shake with the invisible pawn pod? How can you shake 392 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: with the invisible paw? Wait? Oh shake? Oh? I see right? 393 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: Or are you shaking the invisible paw or is the 394 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: invisible tail shaking the invisible dog? I'm literally gonna die, 395 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: so uh the yeah, it is really interesting. So basically, 396 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: these dogs, when they were unrewarded, they were fine with 397 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: that because they just got to kick out of doing 398 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: the trick. But when they saw other dogs getting rewarded, 399 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: and they weren't bad as when they stopped doing the trick, 400 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: that is when they started to get upset about things 401 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: being unfair. And and so did they do is sit down, strike, nice, 402 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: sit down and roll over strike. So does this mean 403 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: that dogs are as intelligent as primates. It's really hard 404 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: to make value judgments on intelligence when you're comparing animals, 405 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: but suffice it to say that their intelligence remains different 406 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: from primates. So there was another study on tufted capuchin's uh, 407 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: the same species of monkey we talked about earlier, where 408 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: they would exchange a token for a slice of cucumber. 409 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: But capucheans like grapes more than cucumbers because obviously so 410 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: when a capuchin who had previously been happy to trade 411 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: the token for cucumber saw another monkey getting a beloved 412 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: grape instead of a stupid cucumber for that same token, 413 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: the monkey would get upset and go on strike and 414 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: refuse to pay for his cucumbers. Right, And that's that's 415 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: where he would throw the invisible feces. Oh my god, 416 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: and I made such a huge mistake bringing up Adam Smith. 417 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: This was that was a great bit I'm just gonna 418 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: beat it today for the rest of this episode. So so, 419 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: unlike these capucheons, the dogs aren't able to make the 420 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: distinction between more coveted food, so they get jealous if 421 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: they see a dog getting rewarded and they aren't being 422 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: rewarded at all. But if a other dog gets a 423 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: better ord, like a tastier tree to higher value treat, 424 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: they don't get jealous. So okay, I'm I'm skeptical. I mean, 425 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: if we fed, if we showed Cookie another dog getting 426 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: beautifully cooked salmon, and then we offered for her treat 427 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: just some dumb dog food like dry dog food, I 428 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: feel like she would be smart enough to know what 429 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: was going on. I mean, Cookie, my our our dog, 430 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: might be an outlier in terms of pettiness though, because 431 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: she seems to use almost a hundred percent of her 432 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: brain power on pettiness and a sense of fairness to 433 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: her to her exclusively, not fairness to us or to 434 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: other dogs, So she she might be an outlier. But 435 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 1: I do share some of your skepticism. I'm curious. I 436 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: think the disparity between the treats may have been too small, 437 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: so if they made a much larger disparity between the treats, 438 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: and like say you gave one dog a bunch of 439 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: really good smelly treats and a lot of praise, and 440 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: then the other dog got bub kiss. It's a it's 441 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: a good point. I am. I am curious to well, Actually, 442 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: they love cat turns. That's like the caviare of dog treats. 443 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: They covet cat turds and they will eat them if 444 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: given the chance, because cat feces are higher in fat 445 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: content and it just smells and tastes great to them. 446 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean, there can also be kind of different effects 447 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: depending on the dog. That is, maybe on average dogs 448 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: don't really react to this, but you have some fraction 449 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: of dogs that are really upset by fairness, So Cookie 450 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: would be in that like twenty percent of dogs that 451 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: are upset by the clear unfairness and the treat the 452 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: quality of the treat given, but maybe the rest of 453 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: the dogs don't. Then you can estimate no effect in 454 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: in the in the whole study. This is we're getting 455 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: in statistics here. Please, folks, don't turn off your headsets. 456 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: Were well stop, I will I will kick him off 457 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: the podcast if he brings up any more statistics. Now 458 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: I'm kidding, statistics are good. So while dogs do seem 459 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: to understand fairness when it comes to themselves, they don't 460 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: necessarily understand reciprocity. So there was an experiment where dogs 461 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: were faced with a human who could either press a 462 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: give food or don't give food button, and some of 463 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: the human volunteers were quote unquote helpful, so they would 464 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: press the give food button more and others were unhelpful 465 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,719 Speaker 1: and wouldn't press the give food button as much, and 466 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: the dogs would wine at the unhelpful humans. But when 467 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: it came time for reciprocity, so now dogs were armed 468 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: with buttons that could give the humans food, they were 469 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: just happy to let the humans starve. Yes, so they 470 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: had been previously trained on these buttons to give themselves foods, 471 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: so they knew that the buttons caused food to happen. 472 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: And dogs didn't really seem to care at all about 473 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: delivering the humans food, and they didn't seem to care 474 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: whether the human was one of the generous volunteers or not. 475 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: And when the dogs were allowed to interact with the humans, 476 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: they were just as affectionate with the stingy humans as 477 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: with the non stingy humans. I think it's interesting because 478 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: to me, I don't think this necessarily means dogs wouldn't 479 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: have a preference for humans is based on kindness. I 480 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: think they just were unable to make the connection between 481 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: the buttons and the food and the the idea of like, oh, 482 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: you're giving me more food intentionally, so I should press 483 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: this button that delivers you a cheeseburger. It didn't, It 484 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: didn't work. I mean, it makes sense to me just 485 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: thinking like about the evolution of dogs, because it's never 486 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: been that the dog has really helped feed the human, 487 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: and then the dog would like read the body language 488 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: right of the human of like, oh, the human really 489 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: enjoys the food, whereas I'm sure the dog can read 490 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: the body language like Cookie could read the body language 491 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: of another dog that's really enjoying it's salmon. Well, Cookie 492 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: has no salmon, for example. I feel like, you know, 493 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: the direction of food distribution has always been going one 494 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: way throughout the history of man and dog, from man 495 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: to dog, and and therefore why why why would dogs 496 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: ever be able to discern how the human? Yeah, no, 497 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: that makes complete sense. I agree with that. I think 498 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: it is really interesting because yes, dogs we domesticated dogs, 499 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: but dogs in turn kind of domesticated us towards their 500 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: ends of providing them handouts and food. And it's the 501 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: invisible hand that feeds. Oh my god, I folks, this 502 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: is going to continue long after we're done recording. I 503 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: just want you to know what I suffer through. Yeah, 504 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: so the psychology of the dog would be to please humans, 505 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: but not necessarily to give food directly to humans or 506 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: understand that flow of like food from dog to human. 507 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: Although it's interesting because cats will try to teach you 508 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: to hunt sometimes because they will teach their kittens, their 509 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: offspring how to hunt, and so female cats will often 510 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: bring you a half dead mouse and leave it there 511 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: for you, because I think that this is, uh, it's 512 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: a learning experience for you because you will be able 513 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: to easily kill this half dead mouse, and of course 514 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: they're going to be confused when you scream and run away. Yeah. 515 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: I remember my aunt's cat bringing up one of those 516 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: half dead mice, and then my uncle took my flip 517 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: flop and finished the job. And uh, yeah, I could 518 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: never use that flip flop again. It was it was 519 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: very upset. It's upset. Eleven year old yeah, I mean 520 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: your your uncle probably really pleased your cat though, because 521 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: your cats thinking like, oh, you know, he learned, he 522 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: finished the job, and then when your uncle didn't proceed 523 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: to eat the mouse, cat was probably very confused. Yeah. 524 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: I think Fletcher was pretty triumphant about the whole situation. So, 525 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: in addition to understanding fairness, dogs are susceptible to friendly 526 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: marketing techniques. When presented with two food bowls of equal 527 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: amounts of food, they prefer to approach a food bowl 528 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: when it is next to an image of their owner's face. 529 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: So it's unknown exactly why they do this, whether they 530 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: associate their owner's face with a trusted reward, But it's 531 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: kind of neat to know that you're like your dog's 532 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: personal food mascot. In a dog society, there'd probably be 533 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of billboards with like human faces next to 534 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: dog food. We don't really do the Okay, this is 535 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: what's weird. We don't use companion animals much to advertise 536 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: food for us to eat, But we do use the 537 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: animals that we eat themselves and make them look cute 538 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: and have them advertise the food of themselves. I find 539 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: out weird. What you mean like like a chicken advertising chicken. Yeah, 540 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: like cartoon chickens will advertise chicken, but a cartoon dog 541 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily advertise chicken. But we empathize more with the 542 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: dogs than with the chicken. Well that's true, but then 543 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: you also have the chick filo, a cow advertising chicken. 544 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 1: So there's a bit of a reversal. Real Benedict Arnold 545 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: of the animal world just selling out its animal peers, like, 546 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: eat them, not me, it's the invisible hoof. No, we've 547 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: talked about Capuchin's adorable little monkeys, and we've talked about dogs, 548 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: and they're both really smart. There are other really smart 549 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: animals out there, like primates and dolphins and elephants. But 550 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: could something with a tiny brain like an insect make 551 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: economic decisions? What do you think I mean? If by 552 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: economic decisions you just mean you just mean maximizing some 553 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: outcome based on constraints, which is at a very abstract level, 554 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: what economists think of humans doing. Then yeah, but it's 555 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: not maybe not exactly economics. Uh, you're saying that you 556 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: don't think insects could do your job. I'm saying the 557 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: invisible antennae are are not going to be as economically 558 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: minded as as what we think of humans invisible hands. 559 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: Well that's fair enough. I guess you don't have to 560 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: worry too much about bugs coming for your job as 561 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: an economist yet. But I think what's interesting is that 562 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: insect behavior can be very similar to economic models. So 563 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: if you want another reason to hate wasps, they're also landlords. 564 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: So paper wasps will build these nests that are clusters 565 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: of little chambers. They gather fibers from dead wood and 566 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: plants and regurgitate them into a sort of paper mache 567 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: like substance, and that's why they're called paper wasps. A 568 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: dominant paper wasp usually controls an nest structure, and these 569 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: dominant female wasps will rent out nests in return for childcare. 570 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: So a dominant female paper wasp will allow subletting paper 571 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: wasps into her complex of nests in return for them 572 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: helping to care for her offspring. So she's kind of 573 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: like a landlord, but instead of renting, you have to 574 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: feed her babies. And if you don't do enough work 575 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: for her off no, no you don't. You don't feed 576 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: her babies. Although if you're feeding her like larva from 577 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: you know, another species, I'm sure she wouldn't complain. But 578 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: you have to feed, give food to the babies of 579 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: this wasp. And if you do not do enough of this, 580 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: if you do not do enough work for her offspring, 581 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: she will evict you. So well, it's less I thought 582 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: she would just kill you, So that's less severe than 583 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: I thought. There there, I guess there's a self regulating 584 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,439 Speaker 1: market here. Yeah, I mean she she'll just force them 585 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: out of the little cubicles. And not only do paper 586 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: wasps have this rental setup, but researchers have found that 587 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: they respond to rental market forces. So when there are 588 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: more rentals available, so more competition among landlord wasps, these 589 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: landlord wasps will accept lower pay. That is, they won't 590 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: evict their tenants even if their tenants are not doing 591 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: as much labor as perhaps they would want. But so, 592 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: so how does that How does the market adjust? I guess? So, like, 593 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: suppose you have let's say, quote unquote stable market equilibrium, 594 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 1: and then you have an introduction of new new housing, 595 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: essentially new wasp housing, and so the market price should 596 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: go down. But like, how long does it take the 597 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: wasps to sort of recognize that? Uh, it's harder to 598 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: actually fill their their available housing. How long does it 599 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: take the wasps to to sort of find the new housing? 600 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying, Like, how does how 601 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: does this play out? How does the changes over time happen? 602 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: How do the wasps even realize it? I mean, it 603 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: probably is a pretty rapid rate given sort of the 604 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: wasp lifespan. And I would assume it probably has something 605 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 1: to do with them, like the number of wasps that 606 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: you have in your little wasp apartment complex. So if 607 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: you're you have a bunch of wasps all kind of 608 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: trying to get into your apartment complex, you probably have 609 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: a sense that, hey, you know, the competition is good. 610 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 1: It's not. It's not as if the the landlord wasps 611 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: are scoping out other sort of wasp apartment complexes and 612 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: making a decision based on that. It's probably are they 613 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,760 Speaker 1: trying to clip the wings of competing uh wasps form 614 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: a you know, like the mafias. Your style just sort 615 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: of break the knees of the competition, break the many. 616 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: It takes a while because there's a few knees. It 617 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: would be funnier if these were bees, because I could 618 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: say bees knees, But these are unfortunately wasps. I think 619 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 1: it's that they can sense whether there's a lot of 620 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: you know, wasps trying to vie for position in this 621 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: WASP apartment complex. But if there's not as many, they 622 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: need all the help they can get, essentially, so they 623 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: will be less finicky. And so what about if there's 624 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: a new development, a new real estate development, how how 625 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: does the landlord, a landlord of a new property development, 626 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: let's say, how do they advertise to other wasps like, Hey, 627 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 1: come on over to to the our new beautiful luxury apartments. 628 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: We offer reasonable rates. That's a really good question. I 629 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,760 Speaker 1: don't know it could. I mean, if they did advertise 630 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: at all, it'd probably be through pheromone signaling, so like 631 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: they could maybe detect the pheromones of like a new 632 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,399 Speaker 1: dominant WASP in that area. But that is a really 633 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: good question. I would assume it's either something like that 634 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: or them, like as they're flying around visually spotting this 635 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,919 Speaker 1: new uh, this new nest and then checking it out 636 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,359 Speaker 1: if they're unhappy with the conditions in their other nest, right, 637 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 1: the new landlords just write a banner that says, if 638 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: you lived here, you'd be home already. One of those 639 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: signs that they put up in new Land development with 640 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: like a smiling family. But it's just like wasps cradling 641 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: a larvae. It's like a great place for your larvae 642 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: to grow up. Right, Yeah, we we have the best 643 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: schools for what even would the analog even be? What 644 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: would I'm sorry, are you asking me what the analog 645 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: what a wasps school would be? For wasps? There is none. 646 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they're they're just they're just cradled to 647 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: grave working. I guess there's no there's no school time. 648 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: They don't need to build up the human capital, I 649 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: should say, the wasp capital inside of each of them. 650 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, they grow up so fast. So if 651 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: you wonder why wasps would engage in this rental system 652 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: in the first place, the tenant wasps get a benefit. 653 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: They can sometimes inherit the rental complex and become the 654 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: new dominant wasp, or at least they can lay a 655 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: few eggs themselves, since building the nest is costly. The 656 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: social system actually increases their chance at reproductive success. So 657 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: it's rare to have kids in this in the WASP communities. Well, 658 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: it's not so much that it is rare to have offspring. 659 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: Is that it takes a lot of resources to build 660 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: a an entire nest. So like the time you spend 661 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: investing in building this whole nest structure is it takes 662 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: away from your time and resources to reap news. So 663 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: if you can use someone else's nest structure and you know, 664 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: maybe sort of sneakily lay some of your own eggs 665 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: or hope that someday you'll be big and strong enough 666 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,800 Speaker 1: to become the new dominant wasp, that maybe a safer 667 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: bet than trying to build your own wasp apartment complex. Right, 668 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 1: So it's all about the productivity. And as you have 669 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 1: higher and higher income, you can afford to invest more 670 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 1: in your in your children. It's just you know, I mean, 671 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: we're we're talking about white Anglo Saxon Protestants now right 672 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: right exactly. This whole time I we were just talking 673 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: about wasps, you know, all right that now I'm on board, 674 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 1: all right, But yeah, so it is it is interesting. 675 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like it is in theory, the idea 676 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 1: behind landlords. The argument for them is that they take 677 00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: on the risk of ownership and development. In reality, you know, 678 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: the the just disparity in terms of wealth between tenants 679 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,839 Speaker 1: and landlords means that they're not really taking on that 680 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: much risk, and the tenants are not getting that much 681 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: like long term benefit other than a place to stay. 682 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 1: So it kind of breaks down. But in in theory, 683 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: like in this kind of system with these wasps, the 684 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: landlord is investing resources and taking on sort of a risk, 685 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: and even though they may get more benefits from the 686 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,280 Speaker 1: situation once they get tenants, the tenants at least didn't 687 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: have to risk building a whole new nest. Right And 688 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: because this landlord landlord tenant relationship exists in nature, that 689 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: means it's morally correct in human society's right. Yes, this 690 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: is uh, this is of course. The lesson always to 691 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,359 Speaker 1: take is that if animals do it, it's moral. So 692 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: you should eat your babies, you know us actually know, 693 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: like I should probably eat your head because spiders do that. 694 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: Um no, that's that's okay. Changed your tune pretty quickly, 695 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: so uh. Speaking of other insects, scorpion flies, that was 696 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: a good segue. So scorpion flies also respond to market 697 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: forces in competition. Scorpion Flies are a type of insect 698 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: related to flies. They look like a fly with a 699 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: scorpion stinger on the end, but this is actually just 700 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: the genital bulb of the males and not an actual stingard. 701 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: Don't you like that word genital bulb? Yeah, that's pretty 702 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: that's a pretty good one. So they don't oh my god. 703 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 1: So they don't really kill or bite living creatures and 704 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: prefer to eat carrion or dead insects. So there are 705 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: a lot nastier looking than they actually are. There are 706 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: many different species of scorpion flies, and some of these 707 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: species offer nuptial gifts to their mate. So nuptial gifts 708 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: is a food item presented to a female to convince 709 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 1: her to copulate. So male scorpion flies will offer a 710 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: tasty French kiss to the female where they regurgitate some 711 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 1: nutrients through their saliva as a nuptial gift, and this 712 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: is how you would me remember. So larger nuptial gifts 713 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 1: are often preferred as they both indicate male fitness and 714 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: give the females a large meal. So when there is 715 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: more competition in the saliva business, meaning there are more 716 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,360 Speaker 1: males around, females tend to be choosier and will hold 717 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: out for larger nuptial gifts. But when there are fewer 718 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: males around, they become less choosy and accept some kind 719 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:58,839 Speaker 1: of peddling droplet of nasty saliva. Right, I see. So, 720 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: but are are males competing only along this one dimension 721 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: basically of quantity of quality of saliva that they can produce? No? No, 722 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,359 Speaker 1: I mean there's all sorts of different dimensions of competition 723 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,239 Speaker 1: for these males, so you know, their ability to go 724 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: around and find females. So yeah, no, there's there are 725 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,319 Speaker 1: many other elements to the competition, but this is a 726 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 1: very major point of the competition. You know. I think 727 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: economists kind of model marriage markets, as we call them, 728 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: in a similar way for humans, where you know, there 729 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: there's each mate is looking for kind of the best match, 730 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: the person that will make them happiest over their entire lifetime, 731 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: is how we would characterize it. But it's it's usually 732 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,719 Speaker 1: hard to tell. There's what we call asymmetric information. You 733 00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: don't know from the beginning of the relationship if it's 734 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: going to be a lifelong, happy relationship or maybe it'll 735 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: be kind of a a quick quick burn one which 736 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: quickly turns not so happy. And so it's important it 737 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 1: can be helpful for a partner to invest in a 738 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 1: signal that they are in fact a good match for someone. 739 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: But where this I asked about there being many dimensions 740 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: because this is you know, we typically think of a 741 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,360 Speaker 1: human relationship to be multidimensional, not just not just be 742 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: about my incredible good looks or or whatever. So for humans, 743 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,320 Speaker 1: there there's some person who's a good match for another person, 744 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: but they'd be a bad match for someone else. So 745 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: what you're saying is you viewed our relationship entirely in 746 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 1: terms of marketability and economics, is what I'm learning right now. Yeah, 747 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 1: I I viewed our relationship as something which would maximize 748 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: my lifetime discounted utility. Obviously. Ah, that's so romantic. But yeah, 749 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: I mean you know, um, you did win me over 750 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: with giving me a cup of neutral it of saliva, 751 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:05,640 Speaker 1: and that was sufficient for me to calculate your fitness. 752 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: And so here we are a match made in heaven. Yeah. No, 753 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,839 Speaker 1: it's it's been great. But so I have one more 754 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: question on these guys. Can a male get some saliva 755 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: from another male from his bro his his let's say, wingman. 756 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: You I feel like you only ask that question because 757 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: you had the wingman pun. But I'll allow it, so 758 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:31,359 Speaker 1: I don't think so. But there are cases of duplicity 759 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: in terms of nuptial gifts with spiders where sometimes a 760 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,239 Speaker 1: male will wrap up a you know, basically they will 761 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,240 Speaker 1: have like an insect that's been wrapped up in spider 762 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: silk and presented to the female. But some of these 763 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: spiders will wrap up which seems to be a large gift, 764 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: but it's just like a twig or a dead leaf 765 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,320 Speaker 1: or something. So they trick the female into sticking around 766 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 1: for copulation and when they like unwrapped this gift, it's 767 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,839 Speaker 1: just full of garbage. So has this has this duplicity 768 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,880 Speaker 1: led to all these spider women checking out their gifts immediately? 769 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 1: I mean they I think they unwrap them as fast 770 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: as they can. It's one of those things that it's 771 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 1: fast as they can't. What do you mean, is the 772 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,919 Speaker 1: copulation just uh yeah, No, the male will go out 773 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 1: of as quickly as he can and get out of 774 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: there as quickly as he can, because classic males. But yeah, 775 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: so what is interesting about that is that kind of 776 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 1: cheating and this is just a general thing for for 777 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,680 Speaker 1: like cheating in nature, duplicity is you can only have 778 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: a certain level of that to be sustainable, because if 779 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: you start to have that happen all the time, females 780 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,160 Speaker 1: are gonna become wise to that and stop accepting nuptial 781 00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,920 Speaker 1: gifts that will no longer be an aspect. They'll probably 782 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,359 Speaker 1: just turn around and like eat the male as soon 783 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: as they can. So it is a delicate balance. So yeah, 784 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: that's actually the subject of Nobel Prize winning economist George 785 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: acker lost paper A Market for Lemons, which was about 786 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,840 Speaker 1: the used car market where you have used cars, some 787 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 1: of them are so called lemons where they just don't work, 788 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: and you can have a so called unraveling of the 789 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: market where all the all the used cars on the 790 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,360 Speaker 1: market are just lemons, and so then no one wants 791 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,799 Speaker 1: to buy them, and then there's no demand, and then 792 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 1: no more market exists. So you can't essentially can't have 793 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,000 Speaker 1: too high of a rate of lemons in the market. 794 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,880 Speaker 1: In order for there to be some demand for used cars, 795 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,280 Speaker 1: you have to have a good amount of reasonably working cars. 796 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 1: And it's the same, you know, ultimately we can apply 797 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,200 Speaker 1: a lot of the same kind of logic for any 798 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 1: kind of sort of theoretical model of behavior. We're talking 799 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,440 Speaker 1: about animal behavior, but human behavior, there's a lot of 800 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 1: similarities and and uh, I think at the beginning of 801 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,880 Speaker 1: the podcast I mentioned like evolutionary game theory, which is 802 00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,919 Speaker 1: very much uh, it's just drawing on the same type 803 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: of math and tools that we use in economics to 804 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:08,640 Speaker 1: model animal behavior. Because there's there's quite a lot of overlap. 805 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,880 Speaker 1: Isn't that the whole point of this this whole pod 806 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,400 Speaker 1: test here? Yeah, no, I mean that that was you know, 807 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,319 Speaker 1: I think it is interesting because when we sort of 808 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,960 Speaker 1: talk about are you talk about economics and I talk 809 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,879 Speaker 1: about evolutionary biology, there is a lot of overlap and 810 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,920 Speaker 1: that that lemon theory is kind of present. Yeah, and 811 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 1: a lot of game theory in in evolutionary biology of 812 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, you can't you can't overwhelm the quote unquote 813 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:42,680 Speaker 1: market with false signals, otherwise animals will learn to ignore 814 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,239 Speaker 1: that signal. And this case, sometimes the results can be 815 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,319 Speaker 1: deadly of a female uh spider and species where they 816 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:56,160 Speaker 1: practice sexual cannibalism, deciding it's not worth waiting around long 817 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,960 Speaker 1: enough to like open this nuptial gift and instead they 818 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,920 Speaker 1: just like turn around and eat the mail. Oh really, Yeah, 819 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, just keep that in mind. So 820 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: she she has her wedding cake and eats him too, exactly, yes, 821 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,879 Speaker 1: or he is the wedding cake. That'd be cute, right, 822 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,440 Speaker 1: spider wedding and then the mail is the wedding cake, 823 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:19,880 Speaker 1: right yeah. Yeah. It reminds me from that scene in 824 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,879 Speaker 1: Spider Man. There was a scene in Spider Man where 825 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:29,399 Speaker 1: they got married and then what you can see how 826 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,200 Speaker 1: in tune I am with popular culture the Spider Man. 827 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 1: Now everybody's talking about Morbius. Now it's all about the Morbus. 828 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: What the heck is that? What are what are kids 829 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 1: into these days? More bus? I just told you. Anyways, 830 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:47,320 Speaker 1: before we go, we gotta we had a play a 831 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:51,320 Speaker 1: little game. Do you want to play a little game? Sure? 832 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,440 Speaker 1: I don't know what impression you're doing, but yeah, do 833 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,959 Speaker 1: you've you've fallen into my trap and now we're going 834 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,040 Speaker 1: to play a little game. Is that saw? No? I 835 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 1: guess he didn't talk like that. Know what the heck 836 00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,560 Speaker 1: are you doing? I don't know, man, I just remember 837 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,520 Speaker 1: in the Jigsaw, you know, like and he's like, play 838 00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:15,080 Speaker 1: my danger puzzles. So yeah, and then the little puppet 839 00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:20,240 Speaker 1: guy goes like, play my saw puzzles. You do a puzzle, 840 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: but it's with saws. Maybe maybe in post you should 841 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,600 Speaker 1: you should modulate your voice to sound like the squid game. 842 00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:33,120 Speaker 1: I thought I sounded exactly perfect. Though. Welcome to our 843 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:40,880 Speaker 1: squid games the Deadliest Praise man. Remember that it's good games. Anyways, 844 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna play Guess Who's squawking? It's the animal sound 845 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:50,759 Speaker 1: guessing game. Yeah, where you guess, Hey, who's squawking? I 846 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 1: say squawking, but it can be any animal on the planet, 847 00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:14,920 Speaker 1: and so here is that animal. Here's an unfortunate reality 848 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 1: about recording a podcast, uh with someone like right over 849 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,920 Speaker 1: my shoulder, is that you get to see my computer screen, 850 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,920 Speaker 1: which is something I didn't really think about before we 851 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,560 Speaker 1: did this. Yeah, you also showed me this. Yeah, I 852 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,720 Speaker 1: didn't not that I would remember the name of the animal. Yeah, 853 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,759 Speaker 1: I did show this to you, but it is so 854 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,040 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let you guess because that would be cheating. 855 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,120 Speaker 1: But I would say, like, if you heard this and 856 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:49,480 Speaker 1: you weren't cheating right now, like you are, what what 857 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,439 Speaker 1: would you think it was? Yeah? I think I would 858 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,600 Speaker 1: guess some kind of bird, which now that i'm you know, 859 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,360 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it and it sounds ridiculous. But I 860 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,560 Speaker 1: feel like if I didn't know, if i'd avail of ignorance, 861 00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: that would be my guess. I don't know what kind 862 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,279 Speaker 1: of bird because I don't know birds, but some bird, 863 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,200 Speaker 1: some bird. Well, you're wrong, you're dumb, dumb, Sorry, I 864 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,520 Speaker 1: don't mean it. Uh no, it is a melan tape here. 865 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,600 Speaker 1: Congratulations to Joey P who guessed correctly. This is a 866 00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:24,960 Speaker 1: large pig like ungulate with a long proboscis like nose, 867 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,920 Speaker 1: with coloration like a panda, except it's got an all 868 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:34,879 Speaker 1: black head. This interesting color blocking actually interrupts its silhouette, 869 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,520 Speaker 1: making it more difficult for predators to identify it. They 870 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,560 Speaker 1: can grow up to eight ft long, which is two 871 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:47,080 Speaker 1: point five meters, and way up to over seven hundred 872 00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:52,560 Speaker 1: pounds around three hundreds, and they have that long nose 873 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,560 Speaker 1: is a short prehensile trunk that they can use to 874 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:02,960 Speaker 1: grip vegetation. So I think they're adorable and fun and funky. Yeah, 875 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,000 Speaker 1: they're they're snout looks. I mean, I'm looking at a 876 00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:09,120 Speaker 1: picture where the guy's turning up his snout and it 877 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,839 Speaker 1: looks really weird, like it's a split snout. I don't know, well, 878 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,719 Speaker 1: it's because the underside of it, like you actually have 879 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,959 Speaker 1: the roof of their mouth sort of on the underside, 880 00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 1: and then this like pink coloration of you know, basically 881 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 1: what is like their upper lip. But then it's really elongated. Yeah, 882 00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 1: it's like it's like someone took the tape ears lip 883 00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: and just stretched it all the way out to the 884 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,200 Speaker 1: end of the snoot and it looks uncomfortable. They're fine. 885 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:44,120 Speaker 1: They love it. Onto this week's mystery animal sound. Um, 886 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,280 Speaker 1: and here's the hint. Though featured in the Silence of 887 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,800 Speaker 1: the Lambs, this fellow is not silent. So I'm gonna 888 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:55,000 Speaker 1: play a sound close your eyes a lamb. Do you 889 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: think I would do that? Seriously? Then it would be 890 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:03,120 Speaker 1: the noise of the lambs, not the silence of the lambs? Wow? Wow, wonderful. 891 00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna play this, but close your eyes? Are 892 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:20,240 Speaker 1: they closed? You're not cheating? Okay? Hang on, it's our dog. 893 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,600 Speaker 1: That definitely sounds like our dog. Okay, So you know, 894 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,520 Speaker 1: other than the dog barks in the background, who do 895 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 1: you think was squawking there? Maybe maybe Dana Carvey. I 896 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: feel like he is a wide range Carvey. What does 897 00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,640 Speaker 1: he have to do with the Science of the Lambs, 898 00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 1: The Science of the Lambs, Silence of the Lambs. At 899 00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,160 Speaker 1: first I was like, maybe this is some kind of rodent, 900 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,600 Speaker 1: but then it's like the it's too low pitched to 901 00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,040 Speaker 1: be a rodent. So then I then I had no idea. 902 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:59,280 Speaker 1: All right, well, uh, if you have an economists, if 903 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,040 Speaker 1: you out there are not suffering from being an economist 904 00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,880 Speaker 1: and you want to write into me with your guesses 905 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:06,880 Speaker 1: about what this say is, you can write to me 906 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,840 Speaker 1: a Creature Feature pod at gmail dot com. I'm also 907 00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:16,560 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Creature feet Pod. That's t And usually 908 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,720 Speaker 1: I would tell people where they can find my guests, 909 00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:25,040 Speaker 1: but uh, yes, I can't be found. You can't be found. 910 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,919 Speaker 1: I keep them locked up in here in my little 911 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,720 Speaker 1: pod loft and like lit them like I dangle Wealth 912 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,760 Speaker 1: of Nations out to lure him out and then feed 913 00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:38,960 Speaker 1: him like the Dindns. Yeah, I can use some help. Listeners. 914 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:45,680 Speaker 1: Everything's fine, So thank you so much for listening. If 915 00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,320 Speaker 1: you're enjoying the show and you want to leave a 916 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,040 Speaker 1: rating review, I really appreciate that. That actually really helps 917 00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,640 Speaker 1: the show a lot. And it also I read all 918 00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,600 Speaker 1: of the reviews, every single one of them. I'm compiling 919 00:59:56,640 --> 01:00:00,520 Speaker 1: them in a binder and carrying it around. And whenever 920 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,880 Speaker 1: I feel, you know, self conscious or anything like, I 921 01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,480 Speaker 1: open up my binder of positive reviews and I go 922 01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,720 Speaker 1: through them and I feel great, and people look at 923 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,240 Speaker 1: me and they stare, but I it doesn't bother me 924 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,720 Speaker 1: because I got my book of positive reviews and like 925 01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:22,000 Speaker 1: their stairs, their judgment doesn't mean anything because they're invisible stairs. 926 01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 1: They're invisible stairs because Kirby Kirby Sonic Mario one D 927 01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,840 Speaker 1: told me that I have a cool podcast and a 928 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,160 Speaker 1: nice voice. Was that like a forty year old gamer? Yeah? 929 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,880 Speaker 1: For these characters, come on with the times. Forty year 930 01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,720 Speaker 1: old gamers love to listen to the podcast, So don't 931 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,120 Speaker 1: eat there, but smirch the smirched them. So yeah, thank 932 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,320 Speaker 1: you so much for listening, and thanks to the Space 933 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,880 Speaker 1: Classics for their super awesome song. Exceluminate Creature features a 934 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,080 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts like the 935 01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,560 Speaker 1: one you just heard, visit the I Heart Radio app 936 01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,240 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or he Gets what You even listen to 937 01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,640 Speaker 1: your favorite show? Don't I don't actually care. I mean 938 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:05,520 Speaker 1: I care about you, I just don't care where you 939 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,040 Speaker 1: listen to your shows because that's that's your business. It's 940 01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,040 Speaker 1: not mine. See you next Wednesday.