1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Aksha Tarti. This week Carney's 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: climate Carnival. Over the last few months, there's been a 3 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: big question hanging over Canada. Who will be its next 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: prime minister? Would the country move closer to its southern neighbor, 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: or would it rebuke the bellicose US president who seems 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: determined to make Canada the fifty first state. Look, I 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: called them, Governor Trudeau, because they should be in the 8 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: fifty first state. Really, it would make a great state, 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: and the people of Canada like it. This week we 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: got the answer. Canada went to the polls and elected 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: Mark Carney as Prime Minister. 12 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: I have a question, Who's ready? 13 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: Who's Karnie is a relative newcomer to politics. He had 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: never run for a political office until he was elected 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: to be leader of Canada's Liberal Party in March, replacing 16 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 1: Justin Trudeau. But he is well known as a figure 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: in international finance, previously heading the Bank of Canada through 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: the two thousand and eight financial crisis and the Bank 19 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: of England through Brexit. Also, briefly until January, he was 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: chair of Bloomberg Inc. Now he's been elected and he 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: has a lot on his plate. How to manage Canada's 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: trade relationship with the US, which takes eighty percent of 23 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: its exports, how to deal with the rising risk of 24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: a recession, how to build up defenses that are currently 25 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: dependent on the US being a reliable ally, and all 26 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: that will have to happen alongside getting Canada back on 27 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: track to meet its climate goals. Carney understands the climate 28 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: challenge more deeply than almost any world leader in power 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: right now. Before becoming Prime Minister, he was the United 30 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: Nations Special Envoy for Climate Action and Finance. He was 31 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: also co chair for the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero, 32 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: better known as Chief Fans. Karnee also comes from a 33 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: country which has one of the world's highest emissions per capita, 34 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 1: higher even than the US, and Canada is way off 35 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: its legally mandated goal to reach net zero by twenty fifty. 36 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: Since Zero hosted Justin Trudeau on this podcast in twenty 37 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: twenty two, the country has made some progress. Emissions from 38 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: the power sector have fallen and rapidly, but Canada's all 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: in gas emissions are rising. So how exactly is this 40 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: all going to play out? Will Carney raise climate back 41 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: up the political agenda as he has done in the 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: world of finance, and is Canada ready to step up 43 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: on the world stage to lead on climate To find out, 44 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: I'm joined by my colleague Bloomberg Green, senior reporter and 45 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: former Toronto Bureau Chief Daniel Bokov. Danny, Welcome to the show. 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 3: Nice to be here. Now. 47 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: It's quite rare to have so much international focus on 48 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: a Canadian election, so we have something to thank Donald 49 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: Trump after all. 50 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean it's sort of damming with praise, 51 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 3: I guess. I think if you ask most Canadians, they 52 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 3: would say they would rather not be wrestling with some 53 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 3: of the issues that we're all wrestling with right now. 54 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 3: But it is certainly true that this election was fought 55 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 3: largely over how Canada is going to respond to various 56 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 3: threats posed by US President Donald Trump's policies. He has 57 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: threatened to annex the country with economic force, which has 58 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: not been taken with much joy here as you can imagine. 59 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 3: And he's also you know, the tariffs are a huge 60 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: threat to Canada. Our militaries are very integrated, so there 61 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 3: are a lot of things that are front of mind 62 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: for Canadians right now. On top of a host of 63 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: domestic issues we were worried about as well. So all 64 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 3: of that has really shaped the election and it has 65 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: certainly provided Mark Carney with a moment that I think 66 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 3: he would not have otherwise had. 67 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: So we're going to focus on all those different things. 68 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: But just before we get into the elections and the 69 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: outcomes and where we are going to go as a 70 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: result of McCartney's new found mandate, let's just get some 71 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: contacts for the audience. Before Carney, there was Justin Trudeau 72 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: as the Prime Minister of Canada for ten years and 73 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: he came with real hope as a champion for climate issues. 74 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: He was one of the first guests we had on zero, 75 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: which is a privilege to have a world leader on 76 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: and when we sat down with him, despite his stance 77 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: on climate, Canada hadn't made very much progress on emissions. 78 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: Do you think from a climate perspective, did Trudeau live 79 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: up to his expectations? 80 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: Trudeau left office, He resigned as the head of the 81 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: Liberal Party, handed the reins to Karney, who called a 82 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 3: snap election. So things have been moving very quickly in Canada. 83 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: He went out primitist former Prime Minister Trudeau went out 84 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: on a real low almost everyone was disenchanted with him, 85 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 3: including climate activists. In a lot of ways. He came 86 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: in vowing to tackle climate change, and if you look 87 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: at where our emissions are relative to where they needed 88 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: to go, you could certainly argue that he didn't make 89 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 3: nearly enough progress. But I do think history is going 90 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 3: to remember his accomplishments on this front as well. He 91 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 3: implemented some very significant policies in a country that has 92 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 3: always been very heavily dependent on resource distraction, that's not 93 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 3: easy to do. The big one was carbon pricing, which 94 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 3: I know you've written about a lot. Several provinces fought 95 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 3: that he got it through the Supreme Court upheld it. 96 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: He pushed through an industrial carbon tax, which was also 97 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 3: enormously important. He implemented investment tax credits to encourage clean energy, 98 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 3: including carbon capture, enormous subsidies for EV batteries to try 99 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 3: to compete with Biden's IRA, and I guess he is 100 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 3: also the one that legislated that Canada had to reach 101 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: a net zero emissions economy by twenty fifty. So all 102 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 3: of that I think was very important. But if you 103 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 3: look at how far we have to close the gap 104 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 3: with emissions. There is a long way to go, So. 105 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: We'll come to Corney's specific policies on climate, at least 106 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: as far as they've been articulated so far. But before 107 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: we get there, just talk us through McCartney as a person. 108 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: What do we know? How do you think that's going 109 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: to feed into his leadership of Canada. 110 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: He is in some ways a different breed of politician 111 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 3: than what we have seen before in Canada. And it's 112 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: quite interesting because throughout the campaign he argued that, in fact, 113 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 3: he's not a politician. He'd never been elected to anything 114 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 3: in Canada until this vote or elsewhere, and this is true. 115 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 3: It is also true that he clearly has very sound 116 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 3: political instincts, and it is fair to say I think 117 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 3: that his career trajectory would not have been as impressive 118 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 3: as it has been without pretty sharp political acumen. He 119 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 3: went to Harvard, he went to Oxford, studied economics, worked 120 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: for Goldman Sachs, led to Central Banks. He was the 121 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 3: chair of Brookfield Asset Management. He also served as the 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: chair of Bloomberg Inc. We should say people describe him 123 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: quite often as a centrist, as a technocrat. He's known 124 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 3: as someone who doesn't suffer fools lightly, and if you 125 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: look at the jobs that he has taken in the 126 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 3: public sector, it seems very clear that he is somebody 127 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 3: that really likes to have impact. So I think, you know, 128 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: in many ways, this moment has been kind of the 129 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: culmination of what all of the pieces have been building 130 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 3: towards the Conservatives. Interestingly, you know who he was neck 131 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: and neck with through most of this race, tried to 132 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: use that background against him, and they did get some traction, 133 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 3: calling him a globalist as a pejorative, not as a compliment. 134 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: The campaign was a short one because the snap election 135 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: gives you only a few weeks to get to the 136 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: point of actually convincing voters to vote for you. How 137 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: was he on the campaign? 138 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, in some ways, I think he ran a campaign 139 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: that was almost note perfect. So he soft launched his 140 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: campaign on The Daily Show with John Stewart, the US 141 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 3: news satire program. He ran a series of campaign ads 142 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: with Canadian comedian Mike Myers. At the hockey rink. He 143 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: played a lot of hockey. You know, he is an 144 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: impressive person. He runs marathons, highly disciplined, comes across as 145 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 3: very intelligent. But I think and this really worked in 146 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: his favor. A big complaint of Justin Trudeau was his 147 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 3: delivery when speaking to people, and whether or not you 148 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 3: think it's fair. A common criticism was that he just 149 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 3: sounded sort of perpetually condescending. Mark Carney has been accused 150 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: by the Conservatives of being elitist globalists, as was Justin Trudeau. 151 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 3: But I think those accusations get a lot more traction 152 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 3: when the subject of them sounds like he thinks that 153 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: he is smarter than you are. And there were a 154 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 3: few moments in the campaign where Carney seemed to lose 155 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: patience with the reporters and the people that he was 156 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 3: speaking to, But for the most part, I think he 157 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: sounded like an adult speaking to adults. He didn't talk 158 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 3: down to people, and this is a moment in Canada 159 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: where many people have said we want, especially dealing with 160 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 3: US President Donald Trump, an adult in the room. 161 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of my conversation with Danny 162 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: Bokov after the shortbreak. By the way, if you are 163 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate and 164 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your feedback 165 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: really matters. Thank you. Now that Karnie is in the 166 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: hot seat. There's a lot that he's going to have 167 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: to do with on the trade front, on security, on 168 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: the economy, which might go into recession in such a moment. 169 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: How much of a priority can climate change be for him? 170 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 3: I mean, that is the huge question that people are 171 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: going to be asking. Who care about this issue? We 172 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: even saw it in the campaign. Neither candidate spoke much 173 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 3: about climate, not surprising on the Conservative side as their 174 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 3: platform was very dominated with supporting oil and gas. You know, 175 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 3: Mark Carney released a climate platform, but it was quite 176 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 3: light on details and he didn't talk about it a lot. 177 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 3: So I think you're right. I think that what people 178 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 3: want to hear right now is how are you going 179 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 3: to deal with Donald Trump? How are you going to 180 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: prop up the Canadian economy, How are you going to 181 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 3: address a lot of really long standing concerns about a frame, 182 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 3: social net, housing, affordability. Things are quite tough for a 183 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 3: lot of people in Canada, and we saw that in 184 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: the election results. I mean, it was a very very 185 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 3: very close race and climate was not central to the 186 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 3: platforms of either candidate. 187 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: And this is not a first we've seen in recent 188 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: elections that climate hasn't become the top priority, as it 189 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: was in some of the previous elections in Canada, or 190 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: in Australia or in the UK. The UK election just happened, 191 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: climate wasn't a priority, and yet when the government did 192 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: come in, it recognized that there is no way around 193 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: an understanding of climate policy because it's so integrated with 194 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: what the rest of the economy does. So when we 195 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: come to Canada, we know that even in the brief 196 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: time that he was Prime Minister before the snap election, 197 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: one of the first things that Cornie did was to 198 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: scrap the consumer carbon tax. Now, the consumer carbon tax, 199 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: from the analysis that the Canadian Climate Institute has put out, 200 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: would have contributed about ten percent of the reductions towards 201 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: twenty thirty goals. The other carbon tax, the industrial carbon tax, 202 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: which Cornie did not cancel, is likely to contribute thirty 203 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: to forty percent the emission. So, first, why do you 204 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: think Carney, as somebody who understands the climate issue, went 205 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 1: about actually canceling the consumer carbon tax at all? 206 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 3: It was political expediency, full stop. The consumer tax, for 207 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 3: better or for worse, was hugely divisive. The Conservatives were 208 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: very successful at making it a very divisive issue. It 209 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 3: taxed gasoline at the pump. I mentioned that Canadians are struggling. 210 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,479 Speaker 3: That is a hot button issue here. It did redistribute 211 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 3: the income to provinces and territories, most of which was 212 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 3: then mailed out to Canadians as rebate checks. Despite this, 213 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 3: it was very unpopular. People didn't understand it. The Conservatives 214 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 3: blamed it for higher prices, and in fact, when Carney 215 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 3: canceled it, he said, this is too divisive, That's why 216 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 3: I'm canceling it. But he promised that he would put 217 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 3: green consumer incentives in place that would be just as effective. 218 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 3: So we will see what will come from those. 219 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: And do you think the industrial carbon tax will stay? 220 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: Because the Conservatives were even to get rid of that. 221 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 3: I think it will stay. There hasn't been any indication 222 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 3: that Carne will will get rid of that. He is 223 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 3: also very market focused, as I'm sure you know deep 224 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 3: sustainable finance background, so a lot of his other measures 225 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 3: are also around sort of carbon pricing carbon markets. He 226 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,599 Speaker 3: wants to develop a carbon border adjustment mechanism. That was 227 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 3: one of the things in his platform. So again there 228 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 3: is a lot that he is saying that he would 229 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 3: like to do. It's just very broad strokes and there's 230 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: a lot of things where we need more clarity. For example, 231 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 3: what his views are towards conventional energy, which all have 232 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 3: to be revealed. 233 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: Well, if we take a look at his policy platform, 234 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: one of the rhetorical things that he made a point 235 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: of speaking about again and again throughout the campaign was 236 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: that he wants to turn Canada into an energy superpower 237 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: that combines, as he put, conventional energy resources with our 238 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: unlimited potential when it comes to clean, affordable energy. How 239 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: exactly do you interpret that turning into policies. 240 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: I think this may be one of those areas where 241 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 3: you really see that political acumen that I mentioned, because 242 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 3: he repeated that wording in his victory speech as well, 243 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 3: about making Canada superpower and conventional and clean energy. 244 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: It's time to build Canada into an energy superpower in 245 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: both clean and conventional energy, and it's time to build 246 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: an industrial strategy that makes Canada more competitive well fighting 247 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 2: climate change. 248 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: The choice of that wording he didn't say in oil 249 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 3: and gas and clean energy. He said conventional energy. We 250 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 3: have had nuclear energy for a long time, we have hydro. 251 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 3: There are many types of energy in Canada that are 252 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: low emissions besides the newer forms like solar energy, for example. 253 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 3: So I think a lot of people assumed that he 254 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 3: meant new pipelines to carry oil and gas, and there 255 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: was certainly political currency to be gained in the oil 256 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 3: rich Province's letting that assumption stand. I've spoken to a 257 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 3: number of experts about this. If you look at what's 258 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 3: happened to oil prices in the last year, this is 259 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 3: not an easy industry to prop up. Pipelines take a 260 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 3: lot of time to build, they take huge amounts of 261 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 3: money to build. There are layers of environmental approvals that 262 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: are required. Carnie refused to scrap one impact assessment bill 263 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 3: that the Conservatives say delays pipeline. So I think he 264 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: has a lot of wiggle room in that sentence conventional 265 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 3: and clean energy to lean to the clean side. The 266 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 3: question remains whether. 267 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: Or not he will. But if you go back to 268 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: Trudeau and our interview of him in twenty twenty two 269 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: versus now, the one place where we have seen Canada's 270 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: and mission start to decline is in the electricity sector. 271 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: Because of this access to clean conventional but also clean 272 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: new energy that's coming on board. The place where emissions 273 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: have actually gone up in those years is oil and 274 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: gas industry, and that is now the largest sector when 275 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: it comes to Canadian emissions. And as much as you 276 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: know he has wiggle room in that phrasing of conventional 277 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: and clean, he also did say point blank we're going 278 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: to have to think about building pipelines to export fossil 279 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: fuels to other parts of the world because we are 280 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: so reliant on exporting to the US. So do you 281 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: think because of the stresses on his job right now, 282 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: which are much more economic and trade related, there is 283 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: a risk and a real risk of climate goals falling 284 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: on the wayside. 285 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: You know, I want to be optimistic about this, So yes, 286 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 3: of course there is a risk. It is easier, or 287 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: it would be easier to increase the flow of oil 288 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 3: and gas to the West Coast and to Asia than 289 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: it would be to get it all the way across 290 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: the country to Europe. I think again, from speaking to 291 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 3: experts on this, it really depends on whether or not 292 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 3: he is willing to announce sort of massive subsidies for 293 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 3: the industry. If you look at you mentioned that emissions 294 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 3: went up for the oil and gas sector, and it's true, 295 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: so our climate targets in Canada are to see emissions 296 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 3: cut from forty to forty five percent from two thousand 297 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 3: and five levels by twenty thirty. Over that same period, 298 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 3: costal fuel emissions rose with increased production because production went 299 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 3: up two hundred and forty two percent, but a lot 300 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 3: of that was skewed by investment in the early two thousands, 301 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 3: the early oughts, and it has disappeared for the most part. 302 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 3: You know, companies are not that interested in pouring money 303 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 3: into this sector. Oil prices are not robust, it costs 304 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 3: a lot of money. There is a sense that this 305 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 3: is an industry that is really focused on kind of 306 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: ringing the last profit out of it while it can. 307 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 3: So I think he would have to step in quite 308 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 3: heavily to make that a cent part of Canada's new economy. 309 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 3: And it may be that I hope at this point 310 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 3: the lower hanging fruit may actually be some of the 311 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 3: cleaner energy options. 312 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: How do you think he's going to bring in his 313 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: expertise in climate finance, which is he's developed over his 314 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: time in the UN as a champion of climate finance 315 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: as the chair of brook Filasset Management, which is one 316 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: of the largest investors in renewables, and of course, as 317 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: somebody who on a global stage talks about the need 318 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: for climate finance, can he bring that in any way 319 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: to the current Canadian situation. 320 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 3: Again, his platform has not been fully fleshed out yet, 321 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 3: but he has talked about a carbon border adjustment mechanism, 322 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 3: which is something that we are seeing on the global stage. 323 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 3: I think Europe has won the UK is announcing one. 324 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: A big question around that, which I know you'll be 325 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 3: probably focusing on, is whether or not it includes Scope three, 326 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 3: because for Canada that's a huge issue. Right. It's nice 327 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 3: if we can and get off lightly by saying that 328 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 3: we make our production of oil and gas cleaner, but 329 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 3: it really matters when you then sell it to your 330 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 3: clients and they burn it, right. That is also part 331 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 3: of the global footprint for oil and gas. He also 332 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 3: has sort of the global contacts and the relationships that 333 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 3: I think on the world stage could make Canada finally 334 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 3: pull its own weight on some of these issues. He 335 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 3: served as the UN Special Envoy on Climate Action and 336 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 3: Finance for five years. He was a founder and co 337 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 3: chair of the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net zero. So 338 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 3: in some ways I think that you could say that 339 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 3: he is probably best placed of any world leader to 340 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 3: make really substantive change on climate. There is a moment 341 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 3: here that could be of enormous importance if it doesn't 342 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 3: get derailed by these more imminent pressures around dealing with 343 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 3: the United States and some of the domestic problems that 344 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 3: Canada has. 345 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: And that to me has been a change that I've 346 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: observed over this year. Right when Trump came to power 347 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: in January, there was this void that was felt, which 348 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: wasn't the case the last time he was in the 349 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: White House, where there were world leaders like Justin Trudeau 350 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: and Angela Merkel and David Cameron in power pushing back 351 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: against Trump's anti climate stunts. In January, it felt like 352 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,479 Speaker 1: Kure Starmer wasn't really standing up. Justin Trudeau was so weak. 353 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: We had maybe the European leader or Slavnderland speak up 354 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: a little bit, Brazilian leaders speak up a little bit, 355 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: but they clearly seemed like a void at the global 356 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: leadership level. And in three months that's changing. We had 357 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: China's Shei Jinpink talk recently about how China's committed to 358 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,239 Speaker 1: its climate goals and they're going to put out a 359 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: new set of ambitious climate targets leader this year, Now 360 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: we have an election of Carney, who arguably, as you say, 361 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: is probably the most well worst climate leader. Do you 362 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: think I'm reading too much here that finally we are 363 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: starting to see a bulwark off world leaders actually stand 364 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: up for climate issues, given how central they are to 365 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: everything around economy and trade and competitiveness, and that Carnee 366 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: could really bring that central focus to an issue which 367 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: is felt like it has fallen by the wayside. 368 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: I think you could even flip the question and look 369 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 3: at it that maybe the world has finally made enough 370 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 3: progress in all of these areas that the tide can't 371 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 3: be turned and it simply makes sense to start to 372 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 3: reinforce them right. A key message for Mark Carney has 373 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 3: been about making Canada's economy more resilient and what does 374 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 3: that look like. There is a huge opportunity to kind 375 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 3: of integrate climate into electric vehicles, batteries, clean energy, hydro 376 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 3: nuclear areas where Canada has traditionally had an advantage already, 377 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 3: even critical minerals and metals that are used for batteries 378 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: and decarbonization and electrification of the world, well, we'll often 379 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 3: look at extractive industries as not being very climate friendly, 380 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 3: but we need those metals and minerals for decarbonizing, so 381 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 3: there is a benefit obviously to taking them out as well. 382 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: It is only week one, it's early to say, but 383 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 3: I think that we could see some really substantive change. 384 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: Now it's a five year term and that means Carneil 385 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: will get time to actually put these policies in place. 386 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: At the same time, as you and I track very 387 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: closely in our day jobs extreme weather events, we expect 388 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: them to keep rising, and there have been some spectacular 389 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: ones in Canada in recent years, including that long period 390 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: of wildfires that turned you know, not just Canadian air terrible, 391 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: but air in places like New York and you know, 392 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: turning the sky's orange. The damages are in the billions 393 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: of dollars. So how much do you think the Canadian 394 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: public will stick with climate policy sees given extreme weather 395 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: events and given the popularity on unpopularity of climate policies. 396 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 3: There were towns in Alberta, which is really the oil 397 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 3: epicenter for Canada, the oil sands epicenter, that were tremendously 398 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 3: hard hit by those wildfires. So again using that political acumen, 399 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 3: there is definitely an opportunity here to try to remind 400 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 3: people that we are living with consequences every day in 401 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 3: Canada from failing to address emissions quickly enough. 402 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: Now, Justin Trudeau was the first world leader we had 403 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: on Zero and Danny, you and I prepped for that 404 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: interview and it was a really fun interview to do. 405 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: It's time to get mccarnie on the pod. 406 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I would like to co host. We've got that 407 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 3: bid in so let's keep our fingers crossed. 408 00:23:52,280 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: Wonderful, Thank you, Dunny, take care, Thank you for listening 409 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: to Zero. And now for the sound of the week. 410 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: That's the sound of water freezing to ice in just 411 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: one of a million lakes in Canada, and a good 412 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: reminder that Canada's large Arctic region is under tremendous stress 413 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: from climate change, something our guest today, Danny Bokov, writes 414 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: about frequently. We'll add links in the show notes. If 415 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: you like this episode, please take a moment to rate 416 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share 417 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: this episode with a friend or with your favorite Canadian. 418 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar BOYD. Bloomberg's head a 419 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: podcast is Sage Palman and head of Talk is Brendan Nuna. 420 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Samersadi, 421 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: Moses Andim and Showan Wagman. I'm Akshatrati back soon.