Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and
Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our discussion of Jupiter
Speaker 1: the Destroyer. In the last episode, we ended up talking
Speaker 1: about some of the myths of Zeus and Jupiter, Zeus's
Speaker 1: war against the Titans, and how that related to some
Speaker 1: ideas in astrophysics about how an early forming Jupiter in
Speaker 1: the solar nebula of our of our young Solar system
Speaker 1: may have played a very important role in the destruction
Speaker 1: of early forming super Earth's in the inner Solar System,
Speaker 1: leading to or clearing the way for the eventual creation
Speaker 1: of rocky planets like the Earth we live on today.
Speaker 1: So that last episode was kind of it was kind
Speaker 1: of a mash up. We had we had some planetary science,
Speaker 1: we had some mythology. It's like we had two turntable
Speaker 1: and uh, and we had two different records and we
Speaker 1: kind of mixed and nashed them both. Uh. So we're
Speaker 1: we're kind of like your DJs. We're well, we we're
Speaker 1: your hosts, except no substitutes. Uh. And we're gonna have
Speaker 1: more of the same in this episode. We're gonna have
Speaker 1: plenty of planetary science, but we're also going to have mythology. So, uh,
Speaker 1: if you love both, stay tuned, because you're gonna get
Speaker 1: everything you love. If you lean more towards one direction
Speaker 1: or the other, well it's still hang on because we're
Speaker 1: gonna take you on a ride. But if you're only
Speaker 1: interested in when we talk about the Texas Chainsaw Massacre
Speaker 1: movies and stick around anyway because who knows what will
Speaker 1: come up, well that that movie also is astronomical and
Speaker 1: its own wise, that's true. So maybe I thought we
Speaker 1: should start just by doing a brief refresher on one
Speaker 1: of the studies we talked about in the last episode
Speaker 1: because it kind of ties into some of the stuff
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk about right after. Um So, one of
Speaker 1: the studies we looked at last time was published in
Speaker 1: in p N A. S. And it was by Constantine
Speaker 1: Batigan and Greg Laughlin, and it's called Jupiter Decisive Role
Speaker 1: in the Inner Solar System's Early evolution. And the rough
Speaker 1: outline is that the authors here argue that they put
Speaker 1: together a simulation that assumes a version of what's known
Speaker 1: as the grand Attack scenario, and that's where in the
Speaker 1: early solar nebula. So when the Solar System is first forming,
Speaker 1: it's this big disc of gas and dust all swirling
Speaker 1: around this newly forming Sun. When that's going on, a
Speaker 1: young Jupiter migrated from somewhere around five astronomical units out
Speaker 1: in radius from the Sun into about one point five
Speaker 1: astronomical units and then reversed course and went back out
Speaker 1: to a larger orbital radius when it was pulled outward
Speaker 1: by the gravitational influence of Saturn. And the authors here
Speaker 1: right quote, we propose that the primordial nebula driven process
Speaker 1: responsible for retention of Jupiter and Saturn at large orbital
Speaker 1: radii and sculpting Mars low mass, is also responsible for
Speaker 1: clearing out the Solar system's innermost region. So, like we
Speaker 1: talked about last time, this would be wiping out these
Speaker 1: early forming super Earth's or miny neptunes that were forming
Speaker 1: near the Sun and thus making room and freeing up
Speaker 1: some materials for rocky planets like Earth and Venus to form.
Speaker 1: And if you remember the details we talked about last time,
Speaker 1: this would have happened according to these authors here via
Speaker 1: a what they call a collisional cascade. So Jupiter's inward
Speaker 1: migration would hurl all of these planetesimals into um what
Speaker 1: they call mean motion resonances low order mean motion residences,
Speaker 1: shepherding and exciting their orbits, so basically just causing chaos
Speaker 1: in the inner Solar System where things would smash into
Speaker 1: each other and then ultimately spiral into the Sun and
Speaker 1: be vaporized down there in the bottom of the Solar System.
Speaker 1: And then finally they write, in this scenario, the Solar
Speaker 1: systems terrestrial planets formed from the gas starved mass depleted
Speaker 1: debris that remained after the primary period of dynamical evolution.
Speaker 1: So under this scenario, it is the gravitational influence from
Speaker 1: a coalescing Saturn that finally pulls Jupiter back out of
Speaker 1: the fray back into the outer Solar System. But I
Speaker 1: wanted to think about another way that gas giants like
Speaker 1: Jupiter and Saturn, or like if you imagine another Solar
Speaker 1: system somewhere else in the galaxy, multiple jupiters can interact
Speaker 1: with one another in catastrophic ways that have major influence
Speaker 1: on the other planets in that star system. Because going
Speaker 1: to the mythological analogy. One Zeus or one Jupiter is
Speaker 1: bad enough. You've got a couple. You're really running into trouble. Wow,
Speaker 1: they're not going to tolerate each other. That's right, though.
Speaker 1: It is funny that literally in our Solar system, if
Speaker 1: you look at the mythological counterparts of the three the
Speaker 1: first three outer planets you get to after the asteroid belt,
Speaker 1: you've got Jupiter, you got Saturn, and then you got
Speaker 1: Ranas and there if you look at their mythological counterparts,
Speaker 1: each one ascending out there is the father of the
Speaker 1: other who was defeated by the Sun. So Jupiter or
Speaker 1: Zeus defeated Chronus, which is Saturn, and dethroned him, throw
Speaker 1: him into Tartarus. But Chronus previously the Titan had defeated
Speaker 1: Oranas or Uranus by castrating him and throwing his genitals
Speaker 1: into the ocean. Yeah. So like if you've been to throne,
Speaker 1: you get pushed further out of the solar hierarchy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess so. Now, now that's an interesting question, which
Speaker 1: is more like Tartarus being cast into the Sun like
Speaker 1: these early super earths may have been, or being cast
Speaker 1: farther out into a greater orbital radius where you're you're
Speaker 1: very cold and very lonely. I guess I go with
Speaker 1: the cold and lonely uh interpretation more again, just in
Speaker 1: terms of thinking about what mythological punishments would be, like,
Speaker 1: I tend to imagine, uh, the prison of the Titans
Speaker 1: as being cold and lonesome. But anyway, I wanted to, uh,
Speaker 1: now now talk about the idea of Jupiter's going eccentric
Speaker 1: and UH usually the word centric, how do we use that?
Speaker 1: We use the word eccentric to mean weird, but in
Speaker 1: kind of a harmless way, like it's the nice version
Speaker 1: of weird, or the or the at least the rich
Speaker 1: version of weird, right right, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: know exactly what you mean by that. But now in
Speaker 1: this case, this would be uh eccentric in a way
Speaker 1: that is, that is not at all harmless and potentially
Speaker 1: could be world ending. Uh. So I wanted to look
Speaker 1: at a blog post by an American astrophysicist living in
Speaker 1: France named Sean Raymond, who I wanted to bring this
Speaker 1: up because I think reading his blog on his website
Speaker 1: was one of the reasons I ended up wanting to
Speaker 1: do this pair of episodes about Jupiter. I was originally
Speaker 1: reading his website because he was one of the authors
Speaker 1: of a study about moons of moons that I talked
Speaker 1: about for an episode of The Artifact, where I was
Speaker 1: saying like, like, how many levels of orbits can you
Speaker 1: go down? You know, the the so the our our
Speaker 1: son orbits the center of the Milky Way galaxy, and
Speaker 1: then the Earth orbits the Sun, and then the moon
Speaker 1: orbits the Earth. But could the moon have its own moon?
Speaker 1: And it turns out the answer is yes, there's nothing
Speaker 1: in physics that prevents moons from having moons. But of course,
Speaker 1: every every step you go down that ladder of orbits
Speaker 1: within orbits, the maximum size of the orbiting object gets
Speaker 1: smaller and smaller, and if you include really small stuff,
Speaker 1: I think moons of moons can have moons. But anyway,
Speaker 1: through that, I ended up reading some posts on this
Speaker 1: guy's website. So he's a professor of astrophysics at the
Speaker 1: University of Bordeaux in France, and his blog is fun
Speaker 1: he he he sometimes like writes poems about astrophysics, and
Speaker 1: that's weird stuff on there. But there was this one
Speaker 1: post that I thought was really interesting and got me
Speaker 1: thinking about this topic. And reading other stuff about it,
Speaker 1: and it was a post called how planets die when
Speaker 1: good Jupiters go bad, And the gist of this post
Speaker 1: here is about how planets like Jupiter have the potential
Speaker 1: to destroy the Solar systems that they dwell within and
Speaker 1: in other planetary systems around other stars in the galaxy.
Speaker 1: There is evidence that gas giants like Jupiter have indeed
Speaker 1: already destroyed other planets in in their solar systems. Now,
Speaker 1: of course, as we talked about in the last episode,
Speaker 1: Jupiter is the largest planet in our Solar system. It's
Speaker 1: more than three hundred times more massive than Earth. What
Speaker 1: was it was like three hundred and seventeen times as
Speaker 1: massive as Earth or something, I mean, just huge. And
Speaker 1: of course the Sun is the largest gravitational influence in
Speaker 1: our Solar system, but Jupiter is second in that regard,
Speaker 1: and Jupiter has more effects on what happens to the
Speaker 1: rest of the objects in the Solar System than you
Speaker 1: might imagine. Raymond talks about some stuff that we didn't
Speaker 1: really get into in the last episode, Like one of
Speaker 1: the things he mentions is that Jupiter probably would have
Speaker 1: blocked large icy bodies from the outer Solar System from
Speaker 1: invading the inner Solar System when the Solar System was
Speaker 1: first forming. It would have cleared this large gap in
Speaker 1: the solar nebula disc that was forming around the early
Speaker 1: Sun UH, and with its gravity it would prevent large
Speaker 1: icy objects from migrating inwards. Of course, we already talked
Speaker 1: about that Batigan and Laughlin idea that if it's correct,
Speaker 1: during Jupiter's grand tach or the movement in and then
Speaker 1: out again, UH, it would have had these catastrophic implications
Speaker 1: for early forming super Earth's or many Neptunes close to
Speaker 1: the Sun through this collisional cascade UH and would have
Speaker 1: allowed small rocky planets like Earth to take shape in
Speaker 1: the aftermath. But Jupiter also we should remember, and this
Speaker 1: is one thing we're gonna look at in several different
Speaker 1: ways today. Jupiter plays a major role in influencing what
Speaker 1: kinds of space objects crash into Earth and at what
Speaker 1: rate and at what velocity, Because to read from Raymond
Speaker 1: here quote, Jupiter's gravity determines how comets enter the Inner
Speaker 1: Solar System and how long they spend near the planets
Speaker 1: with the potential to crash into Earth before launching them
Speaker 1: into interstellar space. And this has implications both ways. So
Speaker 1: it means that Jupiter can act as a kind of destroyer,
Speaker 1: flinging objects in our direction in a dangerous way, but
Speaker 1: Jupiter can also act as a kind of protector, shepherding
Speaker 1: objects away from Earth and keeping us safe. And so
Speaker 1: Jupiter's effect on the movements of space objects in the
Speaker 1: inner Solar System, like asteroids and especially comets, I think
Speaker 1: will have powerful effects on things like the water contents
Speaker 1: of Earth and the biological development of Earth, which will
Speaker 1: come back to as we go on. But coming back
Speaker 1: to the idea of eccentric jupiters now, I mentioned in
Speaker 1: the last episode that sometimes when we look out at
Speaker 1: other stars in our galaxy, we can see that they
Speaker 1: have large exoplanets, large gas giants in very eccentric orbits.
Speaker 1: The orbits of most of the planets in our Solar
Speaker 1: system are nearly circular. They're not perfectly circular, but they're
Speaker 1: pretty close. I mean, you know, roughly circular. If you
Speaker 1: look at the orbit of some comets, though it is
Speaker 1: a completely different story. There are comets that orbit the
Speaker 1: Sun in these incredibly squashed, squeezed out oval trajectories. Uh,
Speaker 1: and these orbits that deviate from near circularity are called eccentric,
Speaker 1: and of course the more squashed out they get, the
Speaker 1: more highly eccentric they are. So if you're trying to
Speaker 1: picture it, you can think of a more eccentric orbit
Speaker 1: is like a rubber band being stretched out instead of
Speaker 1: allowed to just like sit slack in a circle. And
Speaker 1: in fact, exoplanet research reveals that around other stars in
Speaker 1: the galaxy there are gas giants like Jupiter that have
Speaker 1: orbits more like these comets. So imagine a Jupiter or
Speaker 1: a Saturn with a highly eccentric orbit more like a
Speaker 1: stretched out rubber band. These types of planets exist, and
Speaker 1: the question is, well, how does that happen? Well, Raymond
Speaker 1: discusses one way when gas giants act upon one another
Speaker 1: in dangerous ways. So large gas giants exert gravitational influence
Speaker 1: not only on commets, not only on the moons that
Speaker 1: orbit them, but also on one another. You know, if
Speaker 1: you have like two jupiters orbiting a star, they will
Speaker 1: have influence on the paths that they each take. Uh.
Speaker 1: Remember thinking again about the way that a Saturn may
Speaker 1: have pulled Jupiter back out of the inner Solar system.
Speaker 1: According to the Grand tach hypothesis. So, if you have
Speaker 1: two gas giants that are affecting one another gravitationally, it
Speaker 1: can throw their orbits off course. And sometimes these gravitational
Speaker 1: interactions can even put them into orbital patterns uh, such
Speaker 1: that one gas giant gets gravitationally ejected out of the
Speaker 1: Solar System by the gravitational influence of the other like
Speaker 1: it does sort of a gravity slingshot, like we might
Speaker 1: do with a with one of our space probes, but
Speaker 1: on a planet, and just like throws it way out
Speaker 1: of there, and then the other one remains. But in
Speaker 1: this stretch out eccentric orbit. And as you might well imagine,
Speaker 1: these gravitational disturbances in the orbits of gas giants can
Speaker 1: have horrible effects on the planets nearby. So if there
Speaker 1: are earthlike inner planets, in one of these scenarios, they
Speaker 1: tend to get cast into the pit of Tartarus UH.
Speaker 1: And this could actually this could be either of the
Speaker 1: Tartarus scenarios we were talking about earlier. In the closest
Speaker 1: thing to a literal sense, right, they either get cast
Speaker 1: way out into nowhere into space, or they get thrown
Speaker 1: into the Sun or destroyed by collisions, possibly with gas
Speaker 1: giants themselves, or with other rocky planets or planetesimals, and
Speaker 1: then those the debris from those collisions can spiral into
Speaker 1: the Sun or they get ejected and then just plunge
Speaker 1: forever into the void. Yeah, it's the thing about the amokies,
Speaker 1: they tend to they tend to throughout the old order
Speaker 1: in a place it was something new. You know. This
Speaker 1: reminds me of one of the possible explanations for Umu Mua,
Speaker 1: that object, interstellar object that we did a couple of
Speaker 1: episodes about that. Some people, I think, probably very prematurely,
Speaker 1: we're trying to say was an alien probe, but I
Speaker 1: don't think there's good evidence of that. But one of
Speaker 1: the ideas about what this object probably is because it
Speaker 1: had strange characteristics, like it's kind of elongated and seemed
Speaker 1: to be moving in a kind of tumbling motion. One
Speaker 1: of the ideas is that it is part of an
Speaker 1: object that was destroyed or rejected from its host star
Speaker 1: system by a gravitational disturbance like this. Now, most of
Speaker 1: the time, when a Jupiter turns murderous, when when Jupiter,
Speaker 1: you know, when when his hand flashes with power, as
Speaker 1: it says in the in hesi. It's the agony um
Speaker 1: when a gas giant goes rogue and destroys the other planets.
Speaker 1: Most of the time it happens early in the formation
Speaker 1: of the Solar System, shortly after most of the material
Speaker 1: and the nebula disc is dissipated and absorbed by newly
Speaker 1: forming planets. And the reasoning here is that without the
Speaker 1: stabilizing presence of this cloud like disk, a jupiter like
Speaker 1: planet can start going off the rails very quickly. But
Speaker 1: sometimes a gas giant can turn into the destroyer. Its
Speaker 1: hand can flash with power later in its lifespan, for example,
Speaker 1: if its orbit is disturbed by external influence. An example
Speaker 1: here could be another star passes too close to the
Speaker 1: Solar System and this, uh, this causes gravitational disturbances, throws
Speaker 1: the orbit of the jupiter like planet off course, and
Speaker 1: then the same thing happens. It just it starts this
Speaker 1: cascading series of effects on the orbits of other planets.
Speaker 1: And you know, many of these inner rocky planets are
Speaker 1: just destroyed. They're they're sent down into the Sun. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, if we're to to to draw in comparison
Speaker 1: to maybe not literal the literal mythology, but just sort
Speaker 1: of the nature of mythologies and belief I'm reminded of
Speaker 1: what happens when a foreign um religion or foreign deity
Speaker 1: uh comes too close to an established religion and deity.
Speaker 1: You know, it can also result in a fair amount
Speaker 1: of disorder uh and a realigning of the order of things. Yes,
Speaker 1: the realignment of a pantheon in the presence of a
Speaker 1: syncretism right when we emerge to religions together. If you
Speaker 1: merge to two stars gravity is too close to one another,
Speaker 1: this can definitely realign things and possibly result in a monotheism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: more on that in a bit. So, Yeah, I do
Speaker 1: want to be clear, we're not saying there's any reason
Speaker 1: to think that this is likely to happen to our
Speaker 1: solar system anytime soon like that that that's not the
Speaker 1: implication here, But it is scary to imagine that it
Speaker 1: does sometimes happen around other stars, and at least is
Speaker 1: possible in theory that you know, you can have this
Speaker 1: influence from some kind of external object, another star passes
Speaker 1: too close or something. This can nudge the orbit of
Speaker 1: a previously pretty stable Jupiter like planet, leading to a
Speaker 1: cascade of effects like we just talked about, and then
Speaker 1: the Earth like planets have an appointment with the wicker Man.
Speaker 1: And uh. One interesting thing that Raymond mentions in this
Speaker 1: blog post is he does some rough calculations and guesses
Speaker 1: that about half of the stars in the Milky Way
Speaker 1: galaxy with gas planets have annihilated the rocky planets through
Speaker 1: a process like this. And I remember that it's much
Speaker 1: more likely for to happen early during formation, when when
Speaker 1: the disk is is first sorting itself out, but it can,
Speaker 1: in some rare cases happen later. And I guess this
Speaker 1: all comes down to the fact that we have a
Speaker 1: Jupiter and we still exist. So it looks like in
Speaker 1: in some sense, we're one of the lucky ones. But
Speaker 1: it's also true that the influence of Jupiter or gas
Speaker 1: giants in general, especially Jupiter in our case, doesn't stop there.
Speaker 1: I mean, the influence on Jupiter on the history of
Speaker 1: the planet Earth appears to be pervasive. I was looking
Speaker 1: at one study by Alisa V. Quintana, Thomas Barclay, William J. Baruki,
Speaker 1: Jason f Row, and Johnny Chambers from the Astrophysical Journal
Speaker 1: called the Frequency of Giant Impacts on earthlike worlds, and
Speaker 1: I was reading some write ups of this, and basically
Speaker 1: these researchers did some simulations of what happens in different
Speaker 1: types of Solar system configurations where you have a Jupiter present,
Speaker 1: or where you don't have a Jupiter present, where you
Speaker 1: have multiple jupiters, and their simulations revealed that in general,
Speaker 1: gas giants like Jupiter have complicated effects on rocky inner
Speaker 1: planets like Earth. So young Jupiter, they think probably flung
Speaker 1: material into the cores of newly forming rocky planets when
Speaker 1: the Solar System was young, and this would have helped
Speaker 1: planets like Earth come together faster than rocky planets in
Speaker 1: a Solar system without a nearby gas giant, but at
Speaker 1: the same time, by hoarding materials to themselves, gas giants
Speaker 1: limit the number of rocky planets that form around a star.
Speaker 1: So if you have a star without a planet like Jupiter,
Speaker 1: it can have way more rocky planets out there um
Speaker 1: And then if you don't have any nearby gas giants,
Speaker 1: young rocky planets are subjected to a much longer period
Speaker 1: it of early bombardment, where they're just constantly being hit
Speaker 1: with impacts from space by smaller objects from the solar
Speaker 1: nebula cloud, and a planet like Jupiter makes that cloud
Speaker 1: disappear faster and thus makes the early bombardment period last
Speaker 1: a shorter span of time. But then again, you can
Speaker 1: also look at ways that a planet like Jupiter ends
Speaker 1: up accelerating larger objects like comets into the Inner Solar
Speaker 1: System and controlling how long they stay there in the
Speaker 1: Inner Solar System. Uh. And of course those things can
Speaker 1: lead to impacts later on down the line that affect
Speaker 1: Earth life. So Jupiter is once again sort of protecting
Speaker 1: and attacking in tandem. Yeah. I guess the relationships between
Speaker 1: humans and God's they tend to be a little bit unhealthy.
Speaker 1: But then again, I mean there there are reasons. I
Speaker 1: guess what we've gone through here kind of uh, you know,
Speaker 1: justifies the ways of God demand uh to some extent,
Speaker 1: thank or Rob. I don't know about you, but I
Speaker 1: am ready to mount an apologia for Jupiter pluvious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. Let's let's talk Jupiter the God a
Speaker 1: bit more. Um. Again, I think this comparison between the
Speaker 1: planet Jupiter and the god Jupiter is is increasingly apt
Speaker 1: the more you look at it. Uh. And in this episode.
Speaker 1: We're talking a good deal. I mean, we're still talking
Speaker 1: about Jupiter the destroyer and Jupiter um of of passionate
Speaker 1: lashing out against a humanity, but but also Jupiter the protector,
Speaker 1: Jupiter the Lord of Earth, because he enforces his order
Speaker 1: upon it and he is in many ways its protector,
Speaker 1: and he was also expressly stated to be the protector
Speaker 1: of the Roman state. The White Ox was his favorite
Speaker 1: sacrifice and it could afford an entire year's protection, uh
Speaker 1: from the Lord of the gods. And he probably took
Speaker 1: this sort of thing seriously, seeing as how he was
Speaker 1: also the god of oaths and treaties, kind of a
Speaker 1: rules guy. Yeah, yeah, so you know, he's lawful. Whatever
Speaker 1: else he is, he's he's lawful. Uh So, I was, well,
Speaker 1: maybe he's the emblem of lawfulness to others. I don't know,
Speaker 1: does he have to follow the laws himself? Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: he's he's in are in a tough spot, like if
Speaker 1: you can't, who are you going to report him to? Write? Uh?
Speaker 1: I was reading The Imperial Ideology of Rome and the
Speaker 1: Principalities and Powers in Romans eight thirty one through thirty
Speaker 1: nine by Sung Cho Hong in Scripture and Interpretation from
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and Home points out that imperial
Speaker 1: Roman propaganda expressly stated that the safety of the entire
Speaker 1: human race lay in the hands of mighty Jupiter. And
Speaker 1: this is a point pressed by Cicero, among others. And
Speaker 1: I believe in particularly in on the ends of Good
Speaker 1: and Evil. I want to read a quote here from it, uh,
Speaker 1: and this is not I want to stress that Cicero
Speaker 1: goes into a lot more detail about all this, and
Speaker 1: he's he's crafting a much greater point uh than this.
Speaker 1: This is just a fragment. But he does a right
Speaker 1: or he does say quote when we call Jupiter all
Speaker 1: powerful and all good, and likewise, when we speak of
Speaker 1: him as the salutary God, the hospitable God, or as state,
Speaker 1: or we mean it to be understood that the safety
Speaker 1: of men is under his protection. This reminds me of
Speaker 1: like when when presidents of the United States will say, like,
Speaker 1: the president's first responsibility is to keep America safe. This
Speaker 1: seems like a very close analogy. It's just like, first
Speaker 1: of all, I am I am the daddy, and it
Speaker 1: is it is all protection from me. Yeah, So this
Speaker 1: seems to be again Cicero's saying all other things in
Speaker 1: this work, uh, I mean additional things. But this seems
Speaker 1: to be like a major talking point for just Roman
Speaker 1: propaganda in general. But so there's the thing that's kind
Speaker 1: of interesting about Jupiter that I think we would recognize
Speaker 1: as commons say, in like Indian religion, the gods can
Speaker 1: have multiple manifestations or faces. Yes to the Romans didn't
Speaker 1: exactly have one Jupiter. They had multiple aspects of Jupiter.
Speaker 1: Now sometimes these are referred to more as uh as epithets,
Speaker 1: you know, just a just different descriptions of of Jupiter.
Speaker 1: But ultimately, I think the line between the two, you know,
Speaker 1: you can see where it enters a gray area, like
Speaker 1: if you're just describing different properties of the same being,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's only a short hop and a
Speaker 1: jump to having different, uh different you know, beings entirely.
Speaker 1: You know, in the Christian tradition, you see, you see
Speaker 1: some of this right because on one hand, you it's
Speaker 1: what you can talk about like God the Father, and
Speaker 1: you can talk about like different divisions of the same being.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you see throughout you know,
Speaker 1: Christian history a tendency to want to say focus on
Speaker 1: said that the feminine aspects of Christ uh in you know,
Speaker 1: certainly in in visual representation, but also then embodying different
Speaker 1: ideas of what Christ was, and then that may be
Speaker 1: um stamped down out of fear of heresy, the idea
Speaker 1: that if people keep going in this direction, it will
Speaker 1: butt off into an alternative Jesus. So you can you
Speaker 1: can tell how how the sort of thing can lead
Speaker 1: to the division um even at the same time, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like saying, okay, we have all these instead
Speaker 1: of having just a dozen gods, we could have maybe
Speaker 1: have um we could you know, still have other gods,
Speaker 1: but we could also have just like a dozen different
Speaker 1: versions or different um incarnations of the same being. And
Speaker 1: that's kind of what you see with Jupiter here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Romans had an idea of what we now call superstition.
Speaker 1: You know that comes from a Roman idea meaning basically
Speaker 1: being too religious. Because picking up off what you were
Speaker 1: just saying, there is a pattern I think throughout the
Speaker 1: religions of the world where when people get incredibly invested
Speaker 1: in their religion, like very passionate about it, they are
Speaker 1: prone more often to to religious innovation. And religious innovation
Speaker 1: can lea to you know, you start really focusing on
Speaker 1: maybe one aspect of an existing God or something, maybe
Speaker 1: that becomes a new God, and then you've got a
Speaker 1: new cult, and that that new cult could maybe undermine
Speaker 1: things that came before. Now, there was in the Roman Empire,
Speaker 1: while the Romans were incredibly tyrannical, there was a kind
Speaker 1: of weird religious pluralism there where there there could you know,
Speaker 1: you could have a lot of different kinds of religious
Speaker 1: beliefs in the Roman Empire and it would be mostly
Speaker 1: okay as long as you weren't causing trouble. But there's
Speaker 1: always I think a certain fear of religious innovation stemming
Speaker 1: from too much interpretive interest in the nature of God's
Speaker 1: in religious matters among the existing religious authorities. That makes sense, Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: Um so, so I know I was reading all this,
Speaker 1: it didn't It did raise an interesting question for me, Like,
Speaker 1: given all these different aspects of Jupiter, and I'll get
Speaker 1: into what they are here in a minute. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the fact that Jupiter had his own priests and that
Speaker 1: Romans tended towards syncretism, which we already mentioned. This is
Speaker 1: the combining of different theological ideas like, instead of hearing
Speaker 1: about a new God, uh, for instance, in a territory
Speaker 1: that you have absorbed into your empire, instead of saying, okay,
Speaker 1: that God's out. Wait whatever you're doing to that God,
Speaker 1: forget it, instead saying, well, actually that God is part
Speaker 1: of our pantheon, or that God is actually Jupiter, that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Well, I mean God, look at the
Speaker 1: way that the Romans essentially just adopted almost wholesale, originally
Speaker 1: the mythology of the Greeks. Yeah. So so, given given this,
Speaker 1: and given that the situation with the different aspects of Jupiter, um,
Speaker 1: I was wanting do do we see in this at
Speaker 1: least a movement toward monotheism because that, of course is
Speaker 1: one of the things about the Roman Empire is that
Speaker 1: it eventually it becomes a Christian empire. There's this movement
Speaker 1: towards monotheistic Christian belief. Well, I don't know if this
Speaker 1: helps with the point you're developing, but the but the
Speaker 1: secular biblical historian Bart Irman, who's a previous guest on
Speaker 1: the show, He was on the show last year. He's
Speaker 1: got a book about why Christianity eventually overtook the Roman Empire,
Speaker 1: and uh, and his theory on that, which seems very
Speaker 1: reasonable to me, is that the main thing going for
Speaker 1: Christianity is that, unlike all of the other religions in
Speaker 1: the Roman Empire at the time, or most of the
Speaker 1: other religions in the Roman Empire at the time, Christianity
Speaker 1: was evangelical and it was exclusive, so they were trying
Speaker 1: to convert people to it. And unlike the existing Roman religions,
Speaker 1: you couldn't add other gods into Christianity, or you weren't
Speaker 1: supposed to. I mean, some people probably did, but mostly
Speaker 1: Christians were preaching that no, once you're a Christian, you
Speaker 1: can only believe in Jesus and you have to forget
Speaker 1: all these other gods. And over time those dynamics led
Speaker 1: to effects where Christianity would just grow and grow and
Speaker 1: it would push out because every new Christian wasn't just
Speaker 1: like a pagan adopting one additional god. But now like
Speaker 1: they weren't a pagan anymore, they want you weren't to
Speaker 1: lay allowed to keep your old gods as well, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Because I think even though if we're looking at this,
Speaker 1: we're thinking, okay, you're you're going to the temple, that's
Speaker 1: just a Jupiter. You're worshiping Jupiter, maybe in different aspects,
Speaker 1: but you're you're you're pretty much folk sing on him.
Speaker 1: Even if you did not worship any of the other
Speaker 1: gods in the Roman pantheon, that wouldn't be monotheism. That
Speaker 1: would be what is called hino theism, which is the
Speaker 1: adherence to one particular god out of many. So saying like, yeah,
Speaker 1: all these other gods they're they're fine, they exist, but
Speaker 1: this is my guy, this is my gal. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that that was common in the Roman Empire, that you
Speaker 1: believe in the other gods, and you would maybe respect
Speaker 1: the other gods, but you might have like a personal
Speaker 1: favorite god who you were really devoted to. Yeah. Like
Speaker 1: even in that work on Cistero that I was quoting earlier, Um,
Speaker 1: he's he's mentioning adherence to Jupiter. But he's also in
Speaker 1: the same work mentioning adherence to smaller household gods. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you can you can see that if if suddenly you're like, no,
Speaker 1: you can't keep your household gods, you have to pretty
Speaker 1: much abandon the old way, uh and and and take
Speaker 1: to this new one. Uh. You know, you have to
Speaker 1: cut off the other gods from your life. I could
Speaker 1: see that being maybe it's something that keeps you from
Speaker 1: drifting back into another one. Sure, Like like if you
Speaker 1: if you have to get this new video game and
Speaker 1: you have to throw out all your other video games, well,
Speaker 1: if you get bored with the new one, not going
Speaker 1: to go back to the old ones because they're not
Speaker 1: in the house anymore. Okay, so you only got one game.
Speaker 1: Now you get bored with it. What you start doing
Speaker 1: is looking for glitches in the game to exploit and
Speaker 1: start trying to break the physics, which you could look
Speaker 1: at it for in religious point of view. You start
Speaker 1: maybe innovating how the religion works, thinking about maybe I've
Speaker 1: received a new vision that tells me that the priests
Speaker 1: don't have it exactly right. This is the version. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: new new fan theories about exactly what what Mario means
Speaker 1: to the franchise, etcetera. Now I was I was looking
Speaker 1: around about at this about this question of of monotheism
Speaker 1: and polytheism in the Roman Empire, and uh, there's an
Speaker 1: interesting sounding book. I don't know if you're familiar with
Speaker 1: this author, but it came. It was by Stephen Mitchell,
Speaker 1: who I think has done a lot of work in
Speaker 1: religion and involved in some translations of various works such
Speaker 1: as the the Guita. But he has this book called
Speaker 1: One God, Pagan Monotheism in the Roman Empire, and it
Speaker 1: discusses the complexity of the shift from polytheism to Monothey
Speaker 1: is hum but also it deals with this idea of
Speaker 1: quote pagan monotheism, and apparently historians have some historians have
Speaker 1: considered the various Roman cults to be something we might
Speaker 1: interpret as monotheistic structures. Um, so this kind of thing
Speaker 1: might be worth it a deeper dive in a later episode,
Speaker 1: because it's apparently it's not a cut and dry issue. Rob.
Speaker 1: I was just trying to look up and figure out.
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure the answer. If this is the
Speaker 1: same Stephen Mitchell who did one of my favorite poetry translations,
Speaker 1: a translation of Rainer Maria Rilka's archaic Torso of Apollo
Speaker 1: into English. It's uh, I don't know if you've ever
Speaker 1: read this, but his translation is the version that ends
Speaker 1: an English thing for here there is no place that
Speaker 1: does not see you. You must change your life. Oh wow, No,
Speaker 1: I don't think I've read that, but but it it
Speaker 1: might bob be him. It looks like he's He was
Speaker 1: involved in a number of translations and adaptations, including like
Speaker 1: the Guida, but also like the Iliad. Uh, you know
Speaker 1: various some some Chinese works in their um you know,
Speaker 1: the Epic of Gilgamesh. So there's a lot of stuff. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's the same Stephen Mitchell, but
Speaker 1: if so, that that's a good translation of that poem
Speaker 1: Archaic Torso of Apollo you can look up um. So.
Speaker 1: I didn't have time to to really dig into this
Speaker 1: one God book, but I just want to read a
Speaker 1: quick quote that I found in it from author Stephen
Speaker 1: Mitchell on this topic. Quote, Pagan polytheist did not individually
Speaker 1: become monotheist, but through philosophy and the comparing of religious ideas,
Speaker 1: by adopting and inventing new cults and learning how to
Speaker 1: individualize and express religious experience, they transformed ancient religion into
Speaker 1: a terrain of human experience where much, including monotheism, was possible. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's interesting looking at the possibility that a trend towards
Speaker 1: monotheism could actually emerge from the kind of commerce of
Speaker 1: religious ideas that you would have in a very uh pluralistic,
Speaker 1: multicultural empire. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it kind of
Speaker 1: gets back to the point where you were you're mentioning earlier.
Speaker 1: So let's get into some of these aspects of Jupiter,
Speaker 1: these different Jupiter sub brands, if you will, that were
Speaker 1: available under the Roman Empire. Uh so um. In addition
Speaker 1: to the sources I mentioned already, I was also looking
Speaker 1: at aspects of Jupiter on coins of the Roman Mint
Speaker 1: by Philip V. Hill from this is from nineteen sixty.
Speaker 1: But this one, this particular article is one that dealt
Speaker 1: more exclusively with aspects of Jupiter has represented on coins, um,
Speaker 1: which is also pretty interesting. So let's start with Jupiter Stator,
Speaker 1: who we mentioned earlier. That's that's who Cisero is referring to.
Speaker 1: And this is he who stays panic in battle. Uh.
Speaker 1: This is uh, this is Jupiter depicted with a scepter
Speaker 1: and a thunderbolt, and this is the Jupiter that gives
Speaker 1: you courage, that gives you resolved to not be crushed
Speaker 1: by fear. Okay, So stays panic means like holds back panic,
Speaker 1: not like it keeps you panicked right right now, m so,
Speaker 1: so that's obviously a big one. You know what what
Speaker 1: One of the reasons to a fuel to a god
Speaker 1: is like for strength, right, Like give me that strength,
Speaker 1: give me the resolve to to not run away, especially
Speaker 1: if you're dealing with a warring empire. Likewise, along those lines,
Speaker 1: another big one was Jupiter Victor, the giver of victory,
Speaker 1: depicted as seated and holding a statue all victory and
Speaker 1: a scepter or spear. This was especially prominent on coins,
Speaker 1: and then it might be invoked. This version of Jupiter
Speaker 1: might be invoked either celebrate an actual victory that occurred
Speaker 1: or in anticipation of an upcoming victory. So this is
Speaker 1: Jupiter the conqueror Jupiter what is best in life? Right? Yes?
Speaker 1: What to crush the Titans see them driven before you
Speaker 1: hear their lamentations from Tartarus. Yeah, but of course the Jupiter,
Speaker 1: I mean, presumably a god also has to govern, and
Speaker 1: certainly the Roman Empire would have realized that as well.
Speaker 1: It's one thing to conquer, but then you need to
Speaker 1: hold your territory. And that's where the next aspect comes
Speaker 1: in Jupiter conservator. Uh, this is a Jupiter that holds
Speaker 1: a thunderbolt, but he's holding it above the image of
Speaker 1: the Roman emperor, so he's kind of a preserver of rule.
Speaker 1: That's kind of a halo concept. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like saying, like the will of Jupiter resonates through
Speaker 1: the emperor, and he was the one who rules over
Speaker 1: these lands. Now, one of the big ones is Jupiter
Speaker 1: Optimus Maximus or Jupiter Optimus maximus capital Linus, and this
Speaker 1: is the most powerful aspect of Jupiter, all powerful as such,
Speaker 1: the Temple of Jupiter optimist Maximus was the most important
Speaker 1: temple in ancient Rome, located on Capitol Line Hill. Now,
Speaker 1: some other versions you had Jupiter full gore. This is
Speaker 1: the lightning Jupiter, but not passively, so like Jupiter often
Speaker 1: has lightning. But this is like Jupiter with the aggressive stance,
Speaker 1: like he's going to smite you, gonna hurl the thunderbolt.
Speaker 1: For some reason, when you said that, I pictured not Jupiter,
Speaker 1: but I guess uh an analog to Jupiter Marduke holding
Speaker 1: holding this. Yeah, that's a famous image, but Marduke is
Speaker 1: often picture in kind of a fighting stance from the side. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's one that was referred to as a Jupiter Dolicinus,
Speaker 1: and this was the focus of a Roman mystery cult
Speaker 1: originally a local hit tight, hurry, and god of fertility
Speaker 1: and thunder. So here we see an example of of
Speaker 1: the of Romans combining ideas. Another deity from another land
Speaker 1: is taken in and becomes an aspect of Jupiter. Then
Speaker 1: you have a Jupiter ruminus. This is the breast feeder
Speaker 1: of all life. And then as we mentioned earlier, Jupiter Pluvius,
Speaker 1: this is the cinder of rain. In times of drought,
Speaker 1: special sacrifices were made in the name of Jupiter Pluvius
Speaker 1: and these were called aquilsum. Uh. So this is where
Speaker 1: we're getting back to consideration of not only the mythic Jupiter,
Speaker 1: but but the but Jupiter the planet as well. Uh.
Speaker 1: The idea of Jupiter as as he who delivers the rain,
Speaker 1: he who delivers the water. Yeah. And so we already
Speaker 1: talked about some ways that Jupiter has has influenced what
Speaker 1: kind of stuff smashed into the the forming and then
Speaker 1: the early Earth to determine its composition, what size it
Speaker 1: would grow to, and what was on its surface, and
Speaker 1: what kind of volatiles it had in terms of an
Speaker 1: atmosphere and possibly surface water. Yes. Uh, And so in
Speaker 1: this I mean we're still talking about the planet Jupiter
Speaker 1: pelting the rocky planets with stuff, you know, like it's
Speaker 1: still ultimately a violent relationship. But U. But the idea
Speaker 1: here is that is Jupiter is not only throwing thunderbolts. Uh.
Speaker 1: The Jovial bombardments might have included water or would be water,
Speaker 1: specifically hydrogen rich material. And this wind's up locked into
Speaker 1: Earth's crust and mantle and emerges later to bond with
Speaker 1: oxygen to become water. Uh. So one of the sources
Speaker 1: we're looking at with this is a Nola Taylor red
Speaker 1: article for smithsonian dot com from back in focusing on
Speaker 1: the work of French astronomer Shawn Raymond, who we've already
Speaker 1: talked about, uh, whose models predict this possible gas giant
Speaker 1: thrown delivery of water rich material to the inner planets.
Speaker 1: Also key is the work of andre Isadoro, who, along
Speaker 1: with Raymond, published a paper on this in two seventeen
Speaker 1: titled Origin of Water in the Inner Solar System. Okay,
Speaker 1: so what do they argue? Okay? So the idea here
Speaker 1: is that four point five billion years ago, the massive
Speaker 1: center of the and in this I'm gonna touch on
Speaker 1: some stuff we've already gone through, but then the massive
Speaker 1: center of the cloud of gas and cosmic dust begins
Speaker 1: to form into a central star, our Sun. But the
Speaker 1: remaining cloud remained and its contents would in time form
Speaker 1: into the planets. But the water rich region of the
Speaker 1: disc would have been located several astronomical units away from
Speaker 1: the Sun. The temperature in the inner region was too high,
Speaker 1: so that water then ultimately has to move back to
Speaker 1: the inner planets to become a part of them so
Speaker 1: that we can have water on Earth. So this would
Speaker 1: have occurred um between during a five to ten million
Speaker 1: year period between the Sun's formation and the dissipation of
Speaker 1: the gas disc. During this time, the gas giants formed
Speaker 1: and quote Jupiter's rapid growth gravitationally disturbed thousands of water
Speaker 1: rich planetism as, dislodging them from their original orbits. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we see yet again, Jupiter as it's coming together,
Speaker 1: begins to throw its weight around it exerts gravitational influence
Speaker 1: and in this case would have started pulling in these uh,
Speaker 1: these planetesimals, these these objects, you know, objects that might
Speaker 1: be I don't know, asteroid sized or larger that have
Speaker 1: some kind of water hydrogen content on them and then
Speaker 1: slamming them into the inner solar system. Right. It's it's
Speaker 1: basically you know what it reminds me of is I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've seen these sort of vaudevillian skits
Speaker 1: where like you have your your your bad comic, you're
Speaker 1: sort of Fozzy Bear type and he's on stage, he's bombing.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's just really dog in it up. Uh
Speaker 1: And so that the audience is of course pelting him
Speaker 1: with fruits and vegetables and he either catches one in
Speaker 1: his mouth and begins to eat it or catches something
Speaker 1: like catches the carrot and starts eating it. So like
Speaker 1: they're they're pelting and they're engaging in violence, but they're
Speaker 1: throwing nutrients at him. And he was like, yes, I
Speaker 1: am hungry, I shall eat That is that's kind of
Speaker 1: the relationship going on here. Um well, the Fozzy Bear effect,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it anyway. Um I was reading some
Speaker 1: more about this, um uh Isadoro had provided some quotes
Speaker 1: about this that were used in press release and write ups.
Speaker 1: In particular one that was on Eureka or dot com
Speaker 1: and this is what they said, quote in our own
Speaker 1: solar system, the model shows that ices from the outer
Speaker 1: Solar System snowed down on the Earth in three waves.
Speaker 1: The first came as Jupiter swelled up, the second was
Speaker 1: triggered during Saturn's formation, and the third would have occurred
Speaker 1: when Uranus and Neptune migrated inward before being blocked by
Speaker 1: the other two and sent back to the outskirts of
Speaker 1: the Solar System. Ah, and that ties into something that
Speaker 1: I was talking about earlier when I was mentioning that
Speaker 1: blog post by Sean Raymond, one of the authors here
Speaker 1: that the early forming Jupiter, and I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: he's saying also maybe Saturn too, but at least definitely
Speaker 1: Jupiter and perhaps also Saturn would have prevented these icy
Speaker 1: bodies you're in a Neptune from migrating inward towards the
Speaker 1: inner Solar System and messing with the planets that were
Speaker 1: forming down in closer to the Sun. Yeah. I mean, ultimately,
Speaker 1: if you have an all powerful god like Jupiter, one
Speaker 1: of the things that that they're supposed to do is
Speaker 1: keep keep his dreaded father and grandfather from taking over
Speaker 1: creation again, right, I mean, that's why we're putting up
Speaker 1: with all of this right right now. One other neat
Speaker 1: thing about this that the authors point out is that,
Speaker 1: you know, it might not just be a quirk of
Speaker 1: our own Solar system. It might not just be the peculiar,
Speaker 1: peculiar story of of life on Earth and life in
Speaker 1: this system. This could be going on anywhere that you
Speaker 1: have both giant planets and terrestrial planets. Um. So this
Speaker 1: is the sort of thing that if this is true,
Speaker 1: this would be another thing to look for in our
Speaker 1: exoplanet surveys. Look for situations where you have like the
Speaker 1: right proportions and right arrangements of gas giants and rocky
Speaker 1: inner planets where this same bombardment of water could happen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is really interesting and uh. And of course in
Speaker 1: the specific case of Earth, it of course goes without
Speaker 1: saying that we couldn't have life on Earth without surface
Speaker 1: you know, plenty of surface water on Earth. So so
Speaker 1: this is something that, uh, if if this model of
Speaker 1: the early Solar System is correct, this would again be
Speaker 1: crucial to us being here at all. Yeah. Thank now
Speaker 1: I've got another thing that, again an astrophysical theory that,
Speaker 1: if correct, would be crucial for us being here at all. Uh.
Speaker 1: And this would have more to do with the history
Speaker 1: of life on Earth. Once you've already got the rocky
Speaker 1: planet Earth, and you've already got Earth life, what happens
Speaker 1: to shape the course of evolution on the surface of
Speaker 1: this planet. Well, there is a new paper published in
Speaker 1: uh Nature Scientific Reports in one so I think it
Speaker 1: was just out last month. It was in February of
Speaker 1: this year by i'm here Sarage and Abraham Loeb or
Speaker 1: avy loebe called the breakup of a long period comment
Speaker 1: as the origin of the dinosaur extinction. Uh. And so
Speaker 1: I was briefly reading a Harvard gazette right up of
Speaker 1: of this study. I'm not going to go super in
Speaker 1: depth about it, but basically what the authors argue here
Speaker 1: is that Jupiter's gravitational field influenced objects, a comment probably
Speaker 1: originating from the Ort Cloud. So that's way out there
Speaker 1: past the Kuiper Belt. You know, this huge sphere of
Speaker 1: icy objects, way way out in the distance, beyond the
Speaker 1: orbit of Neptune, beyond the orbit of Pluto, beyond the
Speaker 1: Kuiper Belt. Even that Jupiter disturbed the orbit of one
Speaker 1: of these comets from the Order Cloud, and this disturbance
Speaker 1: of its orbit sent it really close to the Sun
Speaker 1: where tidal forces then broke the comet apart, and this
Speaker 1: would increase the rate of comets that would bombard the Earth.
Speaker 1: And these comets would include objects like the chicks Alube
Speaker 1: impact object, which hit the Earth about sixty six million
Speaker 1: years ago, and according to the leading theory today, is
Speaker 1: probably the main thing responsible for the extinction of the
Speaker 1: non avian dinosaurs. And so Loween Saraje here argue that
Speaker 1: it is the gravitational influence of Jupiter that increases these
Speaker 1: kinds of impacts through the mechanism I just described, And
Speaker 1: Saraje is quoted in this Harvard Gazette piece where he says,
Speaker 1: quote basically, Jupiter acts as a kind of pinball machine.
Speaker 1: Jupiter kicks these incoming long period comets into orbits that
Speaker 1: bring them very close to the Sun. When you have
Speaker 1: these sun grazers, it's not so much the melting that
Speaker 1: go is on, which is a pretty small fraction relative
Speaker 1: to the total mass, but the comet is so close
Speaker 1: to the Sun that the part of it that's closer
Speaker 1: to the Sun feels a stronger gravitational pull than the
Speaker 1: part that is farther from the Sun, causing a tidal force.
Speaker 1: You get what's called a tidal disruption event, and so
Speaker 1: these large comets that come really close to the Sun
Speaker 1: break up into smaller comets and basically on their way out,
Speaker 1: there's a statistical chance that these smaller comets hit the Earth.
Speaker 1: So huge icy objects from out in the Orc Cloud
Speaker 1: getting diverted by the gravitational influence of Jupiter so that
Speaker 1: they pass really close to the Sun. They sort of
Speaker 1: shatter as they do so because the title forces from
Speaker 1: the Sun are so strong, and then they turn into
Speaker 1: a kind of buckshot blast of huge icy objects in
Speaker 1: the inner Solar System that can hit Earth and potentially
Speaker 1: cause mass extinctions. And I think one of the arguments
Speaker 1: that they also bring up is that the is that
Speaker 1: it looks like the carbonaceous content of the object that
Speaker 1: caused the KPg extinction is more similar to stuff you're
Speaker 1: you're likely to find in these deep space or cloud
Speaker 1: objects than in things you're more likely to find closer
Speaker 1: to the Inner Solar System, like in the asteroid belt.
Speaker 1: So again, this is another argument that is based on
Speaker 1: simulations and statistical analysis, But if this is correct, it
Speaker 1: is yet another one of the many ways that Jupiter
Speaker 1: would be responsible for the fact that we exist at all.
Speaker 1: While it was you know, calamitous for the non avian dinosaurs,
Speaker 1: it paved the way for the age of mammals. I
Speaker 1: like that if if this worked true, this is true,
Speaker 1: we we might need a new aspect for the god Jupiter,
Speaker 1: maybe Jupiter or extinct or god of extinctions, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: very good with cold. Be shown holding a lizard in
Speaker 1: one hand and a thunderbolt in the other, like he's
Speaker 1: about to like smash it in his palm. His hand
Speaker 1: flashes with power, but it's against a bunch of had ressours.
Speaker 1: They're trying to guard their eggs, and he's like, well
Speaker 1: he was Probably his thinking was probably I look, these
Speaker 1: these these life forms. They're not worshiping me now. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I don't think they're gonna be worshiping worshiping me anytime soon.
Speaker 1: Unless I really shake things up. I'm just gonna smite
Speaker 1: a lot of them, right. You know what I really like.
Speaker 1: I really like the look of that rat like creature
Speaker 1: down there, and it's gonna be twinkle in its I
Speaker 1: think some some good things could happen if I give
Speaker 1: the rats a chance. Though it does make me wonder,
Speaker 1: you know, did I wonder if Jupiter slash Zeus got
Speaker 1: up to you know, his normal tricks. Did he go
Speaker 1: down and take the form of different uh dinosaurs and
Speaker 1: mate with the dinosaurs to create like certain demi god
Speaker 1: dinosaurs that would have been just you know, extra powerful
Speaker 1: amid their dinosaur brethren. What would the dinosaur mythology version
Speaker 1: of the minotaur be. It would be like a Tyrannosaurus
Speaker 1: rex with the head of a triceratops, I guess. But
Speaker 1: but then again, I don't know. I feel like like
Speaker 1: the minotaur is one of those beasts that's kind of
Speaker 1: born out of feuding with the gods and disobeying the gods.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess the dinosaurs just by refusing
Speaker 1: to worship are just not being capable of it. You know.
Speaker 1: The gods could have taken that the wrong way and
Speaker 1: dished out some punishment. But um, I don't know. Like this,
Speaker 1: I think this would be a rich area for I
Speaker 1: don't know, an action figure line or maybe a comic
Speaker 1: book like the The The Age of of Gods and Dinosaurs. Um,
Speaker 1: what would that have been like? Also? I mean, if
Speaker 1: if humans weren't even in the game yet, I guess. Uh.
Speaker 1: Any form that the Jupiter took would be that of
Speaker 1: a dinosaur. So like, would how would he appear? Would
Speaker 1: he appear as a as a great t rex or
Speaker 1: some sort of enormal I mean he is a god
Speaker 1: of the sky. Maybe he takes the form of of
Speaker 1: of an enormous um of you know, flying reptile. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Jupiter is quetzel coatlas. Oh yeah, that would be fitting,
Speaker 1: especially since you know the humans found those bones and
Speaker 1: named it after a god. So what what better form
Speaker 1: for the sky guide to take? We're all, but I
Speaker 1: think we gotta call it there. But this has been
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Yeah, this has I love getting
Speaker 1: the switch back and forth between the planetary and the mythological.
Speaker 1: I should mention, however, we mostly speak of the Roman
Speaker 1: gods as figures of the past, just as we do
Speaker 1: with Greek deities and ancient Egyptian deities. But we should
Speaker 1: also mention that there are modern worshippers as well, not
Speaker 1: only of of of Greek deities and ancient Egyptian deities,
Speaker 1: but also of of Roman Jupiter um. You know, after all,
Speaker 1: just as modern humans reach for new models, entirely new
Speaker 1: models of religion, uh, you know, drawing things even out
Speaker 1: of popular culture like Star Wars or The Dude. We
Speaker 1: also reach for the old ones and reconstructions of the
Speaker 1: old ones. Thus we do see Roman polytheistic reconstructionism uh
Speaker 1: in several different groups and forms. So um uh just
Speaker 1: always worth worth mentioning. I don't think we we blasphemed
Speaker 1: too much in this regarding Jupiter, but uh, and a right,
Speaker 1: if anyone out there who's actively involved in a religion
Speaker 1: or some sort of spiritual movement that that that reveres Jupiter,
Speaker 1: I would I'd love to hear from you. I'd love
Speaker 1: to know how do you think of Jupiter? How does
Speaker 1: how does this material sit with you? Um? So yeah,
Speaker 1: I always find that kind of thing interesting. We have
Speaker 1: in the past heard from at least one listener who
Speaker 1: engages in a religious model that incorporates Egyptian deities. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, all right, Well, if you would like
Speaker 1: to listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind,
Speaker 1: you know where to find them. Find them in the
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. Uh. That is
Speaker 1: where core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind published
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursday. That's the main show that's the
Speaker 1: main event, but then we also have listener mail on Monday's.
Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do the Artifact episodes unless they've been
Speaker 1: preempted for some reason, and then on Friday's we do
Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema. That's our time to just cut loose
Speaker 1: and discuss some weird movies, and then we run a
Speaker 1: little rerun over the weekend in the form of a
Speaker 1: vault episode. Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio
Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get
Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or
Speaker 1: any other, to suggest a topic for the future, or
Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact
Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the i heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.