Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
Speaker 1: This is pretty smart. Oprah Winfrey once said true wealth
Speaker 1: isn't about having money, It's about having options. That's exactly
Speaker 1: what she wanted to give her students at the Leadership
Speaker 1: Academy she founded in South Africa in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: She wanted to give her students, all young South African
Speaker 1: girls options. Oprah looked to enroll girls who had what
Speaker 1: she called a spark. Well enter Tondo Dlomo. Ten years
Speaker 1: after being a part of the very first graduating class
Speaker 1: from Oprah's Leadership Academy, tondo spark is now more like
Speaker 1: a fire from her humble beginnings in South Africa.
Speaker 2: When I say poor, I mean my very first internship.
Speaker 2: When I came to the US, I was yeah freshman,
Speaker 2: first internship.
Speaker 1: That very first.
Speaker 2: Summer, I was making more money than my grandmother had
Speaker 2: ever made, and I was making three hundred dollars a month.
Speaker 1: Tondo graduated from college, grad school and is now an
Speaker 1: accomplished speaker journalists for Entertainment Tonight and actress. She just
Speaker 1: came back from filming a part in Viola Davis's new film,
Speaker 1: something she says she thought about for years as a
Speaker 1: little girl.
Speaker 2: I'll sit there playing by myself, imagining all sorts of
Speaker 2: things like cameras, spaces like this, like being interviewed, or
Speaker 2: like I've dreamt thought, I've dreamt of those moments, and
Speaker 2: I get emotional about it because truly, in those moments,
Speaker 2: you don't think it's a real thing. It's a pastime.
Speaker 2: It's the thing that gets you by somehow.
Speaker 1: Tondo says she always chooses hope. She grew up in
Speaker 1: poverty that many can't even contemplate, circumstances that would render
Speaker 1: complete hopelessness.
Speaker 2: I remember the day that I lost my mom. She
Speaker 2: was in South Africa visiting the academy, and when she
Speaker 2: found out, her and Monte Gail Gail came. They came
Speaker 2: to my room and they sat with me and silence.
Speaker 2: I entered between crying to silence, to crime, to silence.
Speaker 1: And still that hope. Whenever I can't stop thinking about
Speaker 1: a word, I look up the etymology of it. So
Speaker 1: I googled hope. The root is hope and trust in
Speaker 1: God's word or hope ah, which means confidence in the future.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I felt from Tondo the entire time
Speaker 1: we were together. It was more than a feeling. I
Speaker 1: could tell that for Tondo, it was a knowing, a
Speaker 1: deep knowing that tomorrow will be better. So, Tondo, you
Speaker 1: were one of seventy one girls is that correct? Yes,
Speaker 1: seventy one girls accepted into the inaugural class of Oprah
Speaker 1: Winfrey's Leadership Academy for Girls. That is true.
Speaker 2: You got the numbers.
Speaker 1: You know, there's different numbers online.
Speaker 3: I hoping I chose the right one.
Speaker 2: That's the number. That's the number.
Speaker 1: That's the number. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Before we get into that, and of course, so much
Speaker 1: more of your life journey, I want you to take
Speaker 1: me back to Johannesburg. Grew up in South Africa. Yes,
Speaker 1: what was your upbringing? Like, oh, it's time to have had.
Speaker 2: My upbringing was beautifully complex. So I was raised by
Speaker 2: my grandmother.
Speaker 1: I had my mom.
Speaker 2: Dad were a high school sweethearts, met a very young age,
Speaker 2: had me at a very young age. And so as
Speaker 2: grandmas do, they take you in and they're like, I
Speaker 2: got this, I got this. So I was raised by her.
Speaker 2: My grandmother was a maid, what we call a domestic
Speaker 2: worker in South Africa. What's her name, Julia, Yes, the
Speaker 2: most precious. I love her with all my heart. So
Speaker 2: she was a maid and a domestic worker in a
Speaker 2: town called Bononi. If you know where Charlie Theron is from,
Speaker 2: that's the same little town. Yes, But essentially we lived
Speaker 2: in the backyard of her employer's house in a small
Speaker 2: little room.
Speaker 1: I mean, probably no bigger than the space right here.
Speaker 2: Bed over here, little chair over there, tying, little two
Speaker 2: plate stove over here, little toilet over here.
Speaker 1: Very humble, but it was all I.
Speaker 2: Knew, and so it was home for me. And I
Speaker 2: went to a school called Reinefield Primary that was in
Speaker 2: the neighborhood. I was probably one of a handful of
Speaker 2: black kids at that school, and because it was in
Speaker 2: her inner white neighborhood, my grandmother and I just happened
Speaker 2: to live there because she worked there. And yeah, I
Speaker 2: had great, complex and humbling experiences, very very poor, very
Speaker 2: very poor, And I'm so glad I wasn't hyper aware
Speaker 2: of that then, because I turned along with it. My
Speaker 2: grandmother she can't read nor can she write, so between
Speaker 2: poor with a very like unstable sense of like educational home.
Speaker 2: I had to teach myself a lot of things. A
Speaker 2: lot of my math English Africaans, which is that language
Speaker 2: we learned in school, was self taught. I'm also an
Speaker 2: only child, so I played a lot by myself, a
Speaker 2: lot by myself.
Speaker 1: I probably thought a lot.
Speaker 2: I thought so much, probably too much. I mean, I
Speaker 2: still have the habit, the bad habit too, this day
Speaker 2: of being like by myself and thinking myself into a
Speaker 2: little corner.
Speaker 1: But when you say poor, can you? Because I think
Speaker 1: sometimes poor in America, we think something different than poor
Speaker 1: in South Africa, very different.
Speaker 2: When I say poor, I mean my very first internship
Speaker 2: when I came to the US, I was, yeah, freshman,
Speaker 2: first internship, that very first summer, I was making more
Speaker 2: money than my grandmother had ever made. And I was
Speaker 2: making three hundred dollars a month, a month, yes, and
Speaker 2: that was like me bawling, like my grandmother has never
Speaker 2: not this amount of money in a month. To the
Speaker 2: point where I started, there'd be nights where we go
Speaker 2: without food, and I started offering to help clean the
Speaker 2: swimming pool for the you know, the people's house where
Speaker 2: we lived. So I could earn twenty rand for every
Speaker 2: time I cleaned it. Twenty rand is probably about a
Speaker 2: dollar a dollar fifty maybe, And I'll clean the swimming
Speaker 2: pools because it would mean extra money for you know,
Speaker 2: my grand and I to like go and get food
Speaker 2: constantly in debt. The school was like four hundred rand
Speaker 2: a month, which is thirty dollars, but constantly in debt,
Speaker 2: couldn't afford to pay even that.
Speaker 1: So yes, by poor, I mean really really.
Speaker 2: Really really poor, blissfully poor? Was it? Yeah, blissfully naively
Speaker 2: poor because I had no idea exactly how poor I was.
Speaker 2: I had no idea. I mean, to this day, I
Speaker 2: share some stories with my friends who aren't South African
Speaker 2: or didn't have the same life and upbringing that I did.
Speaker 1: And there are moments where they're like, what what you did.
Speaker 2: That you lived through that? And I'm like, yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: And I normalized a lot of my upbringing, a lot
Speaker 2: of the struggle and a lot of the living without
Speaker 2: because it was all I knew, right, it was all
Speaker 2: I knew. And so I remember, actually after I've got
Speaker 2: into the Oprah and for Leadership Academy, MS Winfrey, who
Speaker 2: I endariingly call my mom now. She came to visit
Speaker 2: where my grandmother and I lived in that little room,
Speaker 2: and I remember being so proud to show her. You
Speaker 2: got to come see this is where I live, like
Speaker 2: come through, and the look on her face she was stunned.
Speaker 2: Like you you remember it. I remember it vividly because
Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself, this is welcome to my home.
Speaker 1: And she was like, this is tiny.
Speaker 2: This is the size of this is like a boat.
Speaker 2: I don't even know, like this is tiny, but I
Speaker 2: had no idea at the time.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you use the word bliss though it
Speaker 1: means there was joy in your house.
Speaker 2: I don't know how, but by the grace of God
Speaker 2: and everything that is high and.
Speaker 1: That we serve.
Speaker 2: I always had a great sense of joy about me.
Speaker 1: You had it when you walked in today. No, really, really, yeah.
Speaker 2: This is why I know for a fact that there
Speaker 2: is a greater thing, a bigger thing at play, a
Speaker 2: thing that calls us to this life for greater purpose.
Speaker 2: Because I have no explanation for more than half of
Speaker 2: the things I felt or experienced. I always tell my
Speaker 2: friends perseverance is glamorized, but it is hard and in
Speaker 2: the moment when you're going through it. Nothing about it
Speaker 2: feels cute, Nothing about it feels like, oh I should
Speaker 2: dread this either, You're just chugging along so hard that.
Speaker 1: It just is what it is.
Speaker 2: And so I don't know, you might as well be
Speaker 2: happy while you do it. Yeah, what do you do?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: So, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I have no true explanation for how I handled things,
Speaker 2: but I'm grateful for it.
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for whatever it is. So you applied to
Speaker 1: the Oprah Winfrey Leadership Academy for Girls, Yes, and you
Speaker 1: were accepted. I was. I didn't know until I was
Speaker 1: researching that it was an application process.
Speaker 2: When I say that year, applications have been sent out
Speaker 2: to the country at wide, the entire country.
Speaker 1: This was going to be.
Speaker 2: One heck of an experience, one heck of a thing.
Speaker 2: Nothing done like it before. I remember when I even
Speaker 2: got the call for it from my principal at school.
Speaker 2: It wasn't even a thing. The buildings weren't even complete yet.
Speaker 2: You know why did they choose you? Let my principle
Speaker 2: tell it. I was extremely smart. Well, actually, no, I'll
Speaker 2: tell it too. I worked really hard. I was I
Speaker 2: was extremely smart.
Speaker 1: And I know this is a podcast for smart girls.
Speaker 3: Say it's so happy to be here. I feel right aloud.
Speaker 2: I have to say it because there are lots of
Speaker 2: moments as I'm growing and coming into my womanhood that
Speaker 2: I did not give myself a little pounded for. And
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful the goal that I get for that
Speaker 2: little girl and all that she did to serve me
Speaker 2: and to serve the woman that I'm becoming now, because
Speaker 2: when I got that call for my principle, they saw
Speaker 2: things in me that I.
Speaker 1: Thought were just it just is.
Speaker 2: It's just normal, right, You're supposed to do it like this,
Speaker 2: and you're in an environment where people have like parents
Speaker 2: that do those you know, those commercials that you see
Speaker 2: with the science experiment with the happy family around it,
Speaker 2: and they put it in and the volcano explodes, and
Speaker 2: it's like, hey, I was at school with kids like that,
Speaker 2: except I didn't have the resources. I didn't have the
Speaker 2: money to go and buy what it takes to you know,
Speaker 2: let alone, I'm trying to teach myself the science. Right.
Speaker 2: My grandmother would sign my diary to say, you know,
Speaker 2: when your parents signs that you did the homework, and
Speaker 2: my teachers wouldn't believe it's her signature because she would
Speaker 2: sign with like an ex she can't write. And I'd
Speaker 2: be like, I promise you, I promise you. My grandmother
Speaker 2: signed this, and they're like no, And so I taught
Speaker 2: my grandmother how to sign, like how to make a signature.
Speaker 1: So did they see your perseverance? Is that what they
Speaker 1: they had to have?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Because when I got that call, it was on
Speaker 2: the accounts of you can do it one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: You just don't have the resources. You don't have the resources.
Speaker 2: And I am so grateful that they saw it, because
Speaker 2: if it was a self sign up, I would.
Speaker 1: Have missed it.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have seen it in myself, you know.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I started that. They called me.
Speaker 2: They were like, Tundle, this would be a great opportunity
Speaker 2: for you. I remember thinking, this can't be real, guys, Oprah,
Speaker 2: I watch her. She doesn't talk about this on my
Speaker 2: shell does not have a school. It's notuth Africa. Are
Speaker 2: you guys kidding me?
Speaker 1: And I was like, but if it's a free education,
Speaker 1: I'll take it.
Speaker 2: My grandmother is constantly in debt, trying to ride the
Speaker 2: school fees, and I remember receiving the pamphlets.
Speaker 1: The school hadn't been built yet.
Speaker 2: When I say it had not been built yet, the pamphlets,
Speaker 2: the buildings on the on the pamphlet were like yes,
Speaker 2: And I was like, it's it's a little sketchy for me,
Speaker 2: but you know what, like let's try it out.
Speaker 3: Why not?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: I was twelve? Wow, Yeah, I was eleven going on
Speaker 2: twelve when I got the application, and the application process
Speaker 2: like spanned until like I was, yeah, twelve going on
Speaker 2: thirteen to start at the school. And it was an
Speaker 2: extensive one. I mean English tests, literacy tests, literacy tests,
Speaker 2: computer tests, math tests, all the tests you can imagine,
Speaker 2: drawing tests. I remember one was draw your dream house. Yes,
Speaker 2: my dream house was tiny. My dreams weren't big enough yet.
Speaker 1: But we're gonna that's a big thing for you. We're
Speaker 1: going to touch on that. Yes, there's a video online
Speaker 1: of when you meet Oprah and you recite a poem
Speaker 1: to her. Yeah, what home are you recited.
Speaker 3: That poem that is following me all through my life?
Speaker 1: What is that? So?
Speaker 2: I used to do performing arts in school. I used
Speaker 2: to do theater. I used to be really into it.
Speaker 2: I still am, But that poem I was in this
Speaker 2: like regional competition for like top like theater performers in
Speaker 2: like my age group in you know, in the in.
Speaker 1: The country and in the city.
Speaker 2: And I had like a competition coming up in a
Speaker 2: couple of days after that interview, and so she asked
Speaker 2: me about my performing arts and what I like, and
Speaker 2: I told her, Oh, I'm really into theater.
Speaker 1: I'm an actress. And she was like, oh, really, well,
Speaker 1: you know, like do it for me.
Speaker 2: I literally, I will never forget the image in my
Speaker 2: mind of sitting there across from her and thinking, am I.
Speaker 1: Should I should I do it? You have to do it.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it, all right.
Speaker 3: And I went for it and I committed.
Speaker 2: You did it kills me. I do never want to
Speaker 2: see that tape ever again in my life. She reminds
Speaker 2: me of it constantly every I.
Speaker 1: Mean it lives on YouTube. I will say, oh, but
Speaker 1: you're so cute.
Speaker 2: You know what, I will say, I was bright eyed.
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for the energy that I had in that
Speaker 2: moment because they're gonna play that in your true Hollywood story.
Speaker 3: You're calling it now, Okay, yeah, it's on tape.
Speaker 2: Oh my Lord.
Speaker 1: So I read something on your Instagram. You wrote, my
Speaker 1: childhood reminds me of how tough life can truly be.
Speaker 1: But despite the memory of those experiences, I look back
Speaker 1: at pictures and I'm smiling in each one. That's the joy, right.
Speaker 1: I implore us all to handle this adulthood thing with
Speaker 1: the spirit of a carefree child who only wants what
Speaker 1: her heart and mind tell her is possible. So there's
Speaker 1: a voice within you telling you that these things are
Speaker 1: possible for you.
Speaker 2: I remember I used to, like I said, I spent
Speaker 2: a lot of time by myself, and I remember I
Speaker 2: would vividly imagine I want to be on Broadway one day.
Speaker 2: Mind you, I've never left the town, let alone in
Speaker 2: the country. But I used to watch Oprah.
Speaker 1: I used to watch all sorts of like American shows.
Speaker 2: My grandmother and I had this small TV that had
Speaker 2: the great you know, you have to hold the thing
Speaker 2: to make sure that it actually plays so we can
Speaker 2: see it. But I used to watch all of those
Speaker 2: things and like, imagine myself, I want to go there.
Speaker 2: I want to go to Broadway. I want to be
Speaker 2: an actress. And when I become an actress, this is
Speaker 2: what I'll do and I'll buy a nice house, and
Speaker 2: like I'll take my grandmother. I used to think of
Speaker 2: all these things. And when you have ample time by yourself,
Speaker 2: you get into the detail of it. And so in
Speaker 2: the moment, it doesn't feel like a grand discovery. You're
Speaker 2: not even sure if it's gonna happen for real, you know,
Speaker 2: but it keeps it keeps the moment alive, It lights
Speaker 2: up the days, It gives you something to look forward to.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Did you watch Oprah's interview with Viola Davis. Yes, I
Speaker 1: just watched it, and so much of that when she
Speaker 1: talks about being so poor and envisioning this, Yes, it's
Speaker 1: so similar to what you're saying.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. It's you're you're so poor, You're you're just
Speaker 2: living in your own mind, anything that takes you out
Speaker 2: of the reality of the space you're Inah. And in
Speaker 2: that way, you keep your spirits, you keep your your
Speaker 2: wits about you, you keep your energy about you, and
Speaker 2: you spend so much time alone that you you narrow
Speaker 2: in onto into whatever it is that you hope and
Speaker 2: pray for yourself, that you hope and pray for your
Speaker 2: life and in my head, I was taking my grandmother
Speaker 2: with me everywhere, go to school.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I want to go to college, take my
Speaker 1: grandmother with me. I mean, take grandad Julia out of
Speaker 1: college and Julia going to class, like we're gonna live
Speaker 1: in America.
Speaker 4: Like I in my head, her and I were going
Speaker 4: to tag along everywhere together. Anything was your person, my person,
Speaker 4: my literal person, my literal person. Her and my mom
Speaker 4: my mom and I like because the age gap was
Speaker 4: so like small, her and I were like friends.
Speaker 1: It was like sisters.
Speaker 2: We would i mean cut up when we were together.
Speaker 2: And when she would come around to visit, I would
Speaker 2: tell her I'm gonna I'm gonna go on day and
Speaker 2: I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna go to Broadway and like,
Speaker 2: and I'd force her to watch like some of these
Speaker 2: shows with me, and I'd be like you see this,
Speaker 2: see this, Like they'd repeat like over.
Speaker 1: And over again.
Speaker 2: You'd watch the same show over and over again, because
Speaker 2: it's not cable TV. It's just like what the government
Speaker 2: gives you. And I would watch and be like, watat
Speaker 2: watch this pot that's where we're gonna go.
Speaker 1: That's where we're gonna go.
Speaker 2: Mind you, I couldn't tell you which direction that place is, but.
Speaker 1: You knew in your mind.
Speaker 3: In my mind it works out.
Speaker 1: In my mind, it worked out. Yeah. So I really
Speaker 1: want to talk about your mom, but I want to
Speaker 1: ask you two quick questions about your education. First. Yes,
Speaker 1: so this school, I remember watching the Oprah Show and
Speaker 1: hearing about her building it, and it was a big
Speaker 1: deal in America. To be in South Africa must have
Speaker 1: been a huge deal.
Speaker 2: When I say, everyone in the country was trying to
Speaker 2: get their children into that school, right, because the reality
Speaker 2: for a lot of people in South Africa, in a
Speaker 2: lot of countries on the African continent, is the disparity
Speaker 2: in education for the girl child especially, And you're so
Speaker 2: poor as a parent, the least you want for your
Speaker 2: kid is an education to take.
Speaker 1: Them out of that circumstance. And young girls want to
Speaker 1: go to school.
Speaker 2: They want to with all their hearts. It's everything that
Speaker 2: is set up against you that makes it so hard.
Speaker 2: But people are fighting for the right to be in
Speaker 2: a classroom and make something of themselves.
Speaker 1: I write about this sometimes, but the GDP of a
Speaker 1: country goes down ten to thirty percent when women are
Speaker 1: not educated and similarly goes up to at thirty percent
Speaker 1: when women are educated.
Speaker 2: The reality is, like there's a saying in South Africa.
Speaker 2: When you educate a woman, you educate the world. When
Speaker 2: you feed a woman, you feed the nation. It's a
Speaker 2: real thing. Women know how to carry so much on
Speaker 2: our backs. I mean, so much of the light of
Speaker 2: that country is carried by women, carried by young girls
Speaker 2: who are hopeful and want something for themselves, for their families,
Speaker 2: for the country at large. This generation of women coming
Speaker 2: up in South.
Speaker 1: Africa right now, don't mess with them. They are serious
Speaker 1: about what they want they are. This is not your
Speaker 1: ordinary girl.
Speaker 2: This is not the parent that was abused during apartheid.
Speaker 2: This is not the grandmother who has lost all confidence.
Speaker 2: These are women who are out for blood. They want
Speaker 2: what is good and they know what it is. And
Speaker 2: a lot of that is rooted in education. And I
Speaker 2: wanted it with all my heart. I remember there would
Speaker 2: be times where I'd go to my grandmother. I can't
Speaker 2: figure out the sum I can't get what this means,
Speaker 2: and I want to so badly. That is the frustration.
Speaker 2: Not that we're poor, not that there might not be
Speaker 2: a male tonight, not that there I want to be
Speaker 2: in the top ten at school. I want to be
Speaker 2: the girl who gets the blazer.
Speaker 1: You know, in South Africa you.
Speaker 2: Get the blazer with the thing with the mark. So
Speaker 2: you know that says this is an academic. Education has
Speaker 2: literally been the thing that has carried me from place
Speaker 2: to place, from South Africa to undergrad to here to
Speaker 2: this very room. Education has been the thing that has
Speaker 2: carried me. So I hold it to the highest regard,
Speaker 2: to the highest regard. It's the ultimate equalizer, ultimate equalizer.
Speaker 1: Obama always says that, yeah, yeah, it is. It's a
Speaker 1: real Yeah, it's a real thing.
Speaker 2: I'm a true and living testament to that. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have seen half the things I've seen, half the experiences
Speaker 2: that I've had, half the conversations you right now, if
Speaker 2: it weren't for me being carried by that education. Quite literally,
Speaker 2: you gave me chills.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you talk about going to undergrad, Yes, so you
Speaker 1: go to USC. I went to JCSU first, I went
Speaker 1: to an HBCU.
Speaker 2: We know that.
Speaker 1: Yes, I started an HBCU.
Speaker 2: And it's funny because when I went to the school
Speaker 2: in South Africa, we don't know, we don't have HBCUs
Speaker 2: we don't know what that is. And I had grown
Speaker 2: up in a predominantly white environment. And then when I
Speaker 2: heard about it in grade nine, I went to momow
Speaker 2: and I was like, I think I want to go
Speaker 2: to school in America and so if that's okay with you, you.
Speaker 1: Know, that would be really nice.
Speaker 2: And she was like, oh, okay, well, let's look into it.
Speaker 2: We got a college advisor who came in, we started
Speaker 2: working on it. That's when I started to learn all
Speaker 2: these things about schools in the US, and like learned
Speaker 2: about HBCUs and I was like, there's schools that are
Speaker 2: like historically designed to lift up the voices of black students,
Speaker 2: black girls, black boys.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, I want to go in there.
Speaker 2: Little did I know, though, that when I got there,
Speaker 2: blackness is so nuanced. Not all black is the same,
Speaker 2: like the cultural differences. I stood out like a saw
Speaker 2: thumb where I.
Speaker 3: Thought I was going to fit right in.
Speaker 2: But in the first the first time I felt it,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh wait, why is everybody.
Speaker 1: Else me where I'm from, Like, we're all black.
Speaker 2: Everybody we're good, like, you know, why do I? Oh
Speaker 2: they think I sound different? You know? And I started
Speaker 2: to realize, oh, there's nuance in our blackness, and there's
Speaker 2: difference in our experiences, in our culture. And in the
Speaker 2: best way, that shaped my experience, that shaped my view
Speaker 2: of American culture, of the black American experience. So many
Speaker 2: things I didn't know, so many things. I was ignorant too,
Speaker 2: and so by my second year, I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm in here. I want to run for student government.
Speaker 2: I want to do like all the things. So I
Speaker 2: was deeply involved. I was like the girl who's friends
Speaker 2: with every group of people. I'm friends with the football players,
Speaker 2: with the with the sorority girls, with the like the cheerleaders,
Speaker 2: the track squad. By the time I was done there,
Speaker 2: I was like, guys, we are a family.
Speaker 1: This is lovely. I did the whole thing. I was
Speaker 1: miss JCSU.
Speaker 2: I went on conferences representing the school. I mean I
Speaker 2: I lived it up in that HBC experience full on.
Speaker 2: And then I got my master's from USC. I didn't know, yes, yes.
Speaker 1: So where were you when you got the call that
Speaker 1: your mom was sick?
Speaker 2: I I was in South Africa.
Speaker 1: I was still in high school.
Speaker 2: My grandmother actually came to school because it was a
Speaker 2: boarding school and it was a parent teacher conference, and
Speaker 2: I remember my grandmother and my mom were supposed to
Speaker 2: come and see me. Yeah, and my grandmother kept telling
Speaker 2: me no, she you know, you can't make it today.
Speaker 1: But I'm on the way. I'm on the way, and
Speaker 1: my mom.
Speaker 2: It's just such a jokester, like literally were so similar,
Speaker 2: and so I thought she was trying to play with
Speaker 2: me and prank me, like, oh no, haha, I did come.
Speaker 2: And the whole time I wasn't taking her seriously, like, no,
Speaker 2: y'all are on the way.
Speaker 1: I know you are this, you know.
Speaker 2: See you when you get here. And so I'm standing
Speaker 2: by the gate as my you know, I see the
Speaker 2: parents coming in through the gate and I'm looking for
Speaker 2: mine and I see my grandmother, but I don't see
Speaker 2: my mom behind her, and I'm like, what where is she?
Speaker 2: Is she hiding?
Speaker 1: Like she's taking us too far.
Speaker 2: Grandmother comes all the way in and my mom isn't there,
Speaker 2: and my grandmother has this somber, stressed down look in
Speaker 2: her eyes. She's hardly making eye contact with me, and
Speaker 2: I'm just like, what is going on with her? I
Speaker 2: was called into the office. She asked to see the
Speaker 2: school psychologist, and she went she met with the school
Speaker 2: psychologist for a little and I'm still outside just living
Speaker 2: my best life, playing whatever, and they called me into
Speaker 2: the office and it seems really serious.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there to my grandmother.
Speaker 2: It's the head of academy, it's the school psychologist, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, what is this. Then they started telling me, oh,
Speaker 2: mam is sick.
Speaker 1: She's in hospital.
Speaker 2: If you want to go see her, we're happy to
Speaker 2: take you, blah blah blah blah, And I have zero
Speaker 2: context as to what in the world everybody's even talking.
Speaker 2: I'm like, my mom, right, yes, she's in the hospital. Okay,
Speaker 2: how did she get in the hospital, Like what happened?
Speaker 2: And they're like, she's unwell. When you want to go,
Speaker 2: let us know.
Speaker 1: I remember in that moment, I was like, okay, well
Speaker 1: I'll let you know.
Speaker 2: I have track and field, I had volleyball practice the
Speaker 2: next day after school, I had speech and debate the
Speaker 2: following day.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'll go on Tuesday.
Speaker 2: It was a Sunday. When they told me, I was like,
Speaker 2: I'll go Tuesday and Wednesday I have I can't miss
Speaker 2: all of my school stuff. That Tuesday I woke up
Speaker 2: and no kidding, I had a lump in my throat.
Speaker 2: I was on the verge of tears and could not
Speaker 2: find an explanation for what was happening. Later on that day,
Speaker 2: around two o'clock, I get a call to come into
Speaker 2: the office. I'm like, Okay, I guess they're forcing me
Speaker 2: to go to the to go see her now because
Speaker 2: I was supposed to go the next day. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: they called me in to tell me that my mom's
Speaker 2: my mom's passed away. She's she's gone. Like silence rang
Speaker 2: in my ears. Silence rang in my ears. I have
Speaker 2: never experienced a deeper shock and disbelief than I did
Speaker 2: in that moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember there was a girl who I had gone
Speaker 2: to school with. She was one of my closest friends.
Speaker 2: Her mom had passed away like two years prior, and
Speaker 2: I remember even then seeing it with her mom and thinking,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, that what a sad thing.
Speaker 1: If that ever happened to my mom, I said out.
Speaker 2: Loud, I would kill myself. There is no way. That's
Speaker 2: not how it's supposed to be. You're not supposed to right,
Speaker 2: I I could never. Yeah, And in that moment I
Speaker 2: had to sit there and come to terms with.
Speaker 1: My mom, my mom.
Speaker 2: I just heard her voice just the other day. How
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense. For a year straight following that day,
Speaker 2: I was in utter an absolute denial. Wow, utter an
Speaker 2: absolute denial. It made no sense to me. I remember
Speaker 2: going to her funeral, writing her obituary, helping.
Speaker 1: My grandmother plan the funeral. I watched it happen.
Speaker 2: I watched the farewell, I watched everything, and I went
Speaker 2: back to school and still was like, there's no way
Speaker 2: it's my mom that's gone. A year straight after, I
Speaker 2: contacted the school psychologist and I was like, I think
Speaker 2: I probably need to talk to.
Speaker 1: You because.
Speaker 2: My mind has not registered. For a couple of months
Speaker 2: following my mom's passing, my grandmother was using my mom's phone,
Speaker 2: and every time she would call me using my mom's phone,
Speaker 2: it would pop up on my phone as Mom. And
Speaker 2: for that entire time, I was like, oh, oh, thank God.
Speaker 2: Maybe I was dreaming. Maybe it was a bad dream,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it was a nightmare. It is this
Speaker 2: her and I had to tell her after some months,
Speaker 2: you have.
Speaker 1: Got to stop.
Speaker 2: You have to stop using this, because every single time
Speaker 2: my phone rings with this number, I'm convinced. Yeah, I'm convinced.
Speaker 1: That my mom is still alive. I'm so sorry, Tonda.
Speaker 2: It's okay, it's not okay, it's okay. I've learned to
Speaker 2: live without her. I've learned to live without her. I
Speaker 2: lost her in high school. I lost my dad while
Speaker 2: I was at USC in grad school. The passing of
Speaker 2: my dad was also much of a shock. I remember
Speaker 2: the loss of my dad feeling like just naturally a
Speaker 2: double hit, something about going through the loss of one parent,
Speaker 2: finally coming to terms with it, and then going through
Speaker 2: the loss of the next parent. And I could not shape.
Speaker 2: I only had two of those. You get too and
Speaker 2: after two, you're done.
Speaker 1: Do you mind sharing how they passed?
Speaker 2: My mom is complicated. My dad had bacterial meningitis. Thought
Speaker 2: he had a headache the entire time and was self soothing,
Speaker 2: you know, a painkiller.
Speaker 1: I'm fine.
Speaker 2: My dad was one of those people, keep going, keep going,
Speaker 2: and to the point where it spread so much, he
Speaker 2: wasn't himself. He had dissociated. The state that they described
Speaker 2: him in was like childlike. He had lost, like so
Speaker 2: much of his cognizance because of how much that meningitis
Speaker 2: had spread in his brain. In fact, when when he
Speaker 2: got to the hospital. The doctor was like, I'm surprised
Speaker 2: he's even still alive because they caught it so late.
Speaker 2: He was in the hospital for about a week and
Speaker 2: even still was improving and had told them please, don't
Speaker 2: don't stress, tundle out, gonna I'm gonna get out of here.
Speaker 2: Was making all sorts of plans.
Speaker 1: With my cousins. We're going to do this, We're going
Speaker 1: to do this the whole nine.
Speaker 2: So the day I get the call is again at
Speaker 2: the very last minute, just such a shock. I was
Speaker 2: walking on campus. I was a research assistant for the
Speaker 2: Dean's office. I was at work that day working. I'm
Speaker 2: walking from one building to the next.
Speaker 1: I get a call.
Speaker 2: From my aunt and I'm like, oh, hey, remember sunny
Speaker 2: day USC The people are skating by the whole and
Speaker 2: my aunt's like, how soon do you do you think
Speaker 2: you could get home? I'm like, home, like like South Africa,
Speaker 2: like Cairl, No, you haven't heard. I've been in America
Speaker 2: for like the past seven years. What is happening? And
Speaker 2: she's like, you need to come home.
Speaker 1: So are you able to connect with your peers at
Speaker 1: this point? Because you have just been through so much
Speaker 1: more than most people.
Speaker 2: I recognize that it's funny. My whole life, I've had
Speaker 2: to compartmentalize my experiences the same way when I was
Speaker 2: at the Leadership Academy, and like my life and experiences
Speaker 2: there were different compared to when I would have to
Speaker 2: go back home for the school holidays, and so I
Speaker 2: don't know, I kind of have learned the art of
Speaker 2: like adapting, so I know how to connect with everyone
Speaker 2: on a human level. But I also know that people's
Speaker 2: experiences have probably been vastly different from mine.
Speaker 1: What did you see American students taking for granted? Candidly,
Speaker 1: I think you know.
Speaker 2: I used to look at it as American students taking
Speaker 2: things for granted, but my perspective has shifted to people
Speaker 2: don't know what they don't know. And I can't criminalize
Speaker 2: somebody else's experience because it is not worse or better
Speaker 2: than mine. So I can't necessarily say people take for granted.
Speaker 2: But students here are lucky to have lived in an
Speaker 2: environment where they don't have to fight as hard for
Speaker 2: their lives, because.
Speaker 1: Like I had a friend who came to America and said,
Speaker 1: when I went to the grocery store and saw all
Speaker 1: the pet food, yeah, I was astonished because in my country,
Speaker 1: we can't even feed all the people, let alone there's
Speaker 1: hundreds of choices for pets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the thing that is the reality
Speaker 2: that people live, right, but you can't hold it against
Speaker 2: them because it's their reality right totally. And so like
Speaker 2: I literally had to do the work to shift my
Speaker 2: mindset because when I was in undergrad I had this
Speaker 2: notion some of my peers would be upset at me
Speaker 2: for like being like goodie two shoes or teachers pet
Speaker 2: or you're always sitting in the front and like it's
Speaker 2: a joke to blah, I'm cool. I know I'm cool.
Speaker 2: I fit in with the cool crowd. But what I'm
Speaker 2: not going to do is compromise on my education. I
Speaker 2: have so much more to lose.
Speaker 1: And you fought for it and I thought to be here.
Speaker 2: So there's so much educating that I had to do
Speaker 2: on both sides, Like for me realizing that this is
Speaker 2: what you know and that's your experience, and if I
Speaker 2: could have had my way, I would have it this
Speaker 2: way because there's nothing cute about suffering. There's nothing glamorous
Speaker 2: about having to overcome you know, the story of it.
Speaker 2: In hindsight is always rainbows and butterflies. The process, the
Speaker 2: lived experience is not fun and if I could have
Speaker 2: it my way, what the life I want for my
Speaker 2: own children one day is very similar to what a
Speaker 2: typical American student would have, where you don't have to
Speaker 2: worry about your next meal, You don't have to worry
Speaker 2: about is your mom going to be here or not?
Speaker 1: Is do you have a parent?
Speaker 2: Do you not? You know what I'm so, I literally,
Speaker 2: quite literally had to shift my perspective and say I
Speaker 2: accept that my circumstances have been so different that they
Speaker 2: have caused me to function in a way that is
Speaker 2: different from others in my environment. And I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing that with me.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: This podcast is sponsored by Better Help. Do you ever
Speaker 1: feel fatigued, lack of motivation, overwhelm, helpless, or even trapped?
Speaker 1: It could be burnout. Many people are burned out without
Speaker 1: even knowing it. For me, burnout sneaks up slowly and
Speaker 1: then all at once. What I mean by that is
Speaker 1: I don't realize it's happening until I'm really over the edge.
Speaker 1: And while we associate burnout with work, that's not the
Speaker 1: only cause any of our roles in life can lead
Speaker 1: us to feel it mine is actually often not associated
Speaker 1: with work at all, and Better Help online therapy wants
Speaker 1: to remind you to prioritize yourself. Talking with someone can
Speaker 1: help you figure out what's causing stress in your life.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you about my personal experience by talking it
Speaker 1: through with my therapist, I realized my burnout was about
Speaker 1: saying yes when I really wanted to say no, But
Speaker 1: identifying that stressor can be the hardest part. Over the
Speaker 1: last three years, I've been working with a therapist who
Speaker 1: practices Gestalt therapy, which is an approach that centered on
Speaker 1: increasing a person's awareness, freedom, and self direction. It's a
Speaker 1: form of therapy that focuses on the present moment rather
Speaker 1: than past experiences. And in Gestalt therapy, you are always
Speaker 1: in relationship to something, to another person, to ourselves. Even
Speaker 1: the environment to be in relationship allows us to know
Speaker 1: our own experience in a deeper way. For me, to
Speaker 1: be in relationship with a therapist regularly helps me understand
Speaker 1: my feelings, helps me be in control of what I'm
Speaker 1: feeling and my response is to people. Betterhelp is customized
Speaker 1: online therapy that offers video phone and even live chat
Speaker 1: sessions with your therapist, so you don't have to see
Speaker 1: anyone on camera if you don't want to. And it's
Speaker 1: much more affordable than in person therapy, and you can
Speaker 1: be matched with a therapist in one hundred forty eight hours.
Speaker 1: Pretty Smart listeners get ten percent off their first month
Speaker 1: at betterhelp dot com slash pretty smart. That's better h
Speaker 1: lp dot com slash pretty smart. If you don't know
Speaker 1: where to start, betterhelp is a great place. So now
Speaker 1: you're working in journalism and you're about to appear in
Speaker 1: a film with Viola Davis. Oh, I'm sorry to the
Speaker 1: sound gun. Yeah, And it's clear from our conversation that
Speaker 1: you've always wanted to be an actress. This is a
Speaker 1: leg oh.
Speaker 2: A dream realized, like mind you. I My friends always
Speaker 2: get on me for saying this, but my role is
Speaker 2: not a huge role, and I can already hear them
Speaker 2: right now. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: We don't care, blah blah. But I'm gonna echo that.
Speaker 3: I don't screaming.
Speaker 2: But the bigness of that moment for me is so
Speaker 2: significant because it's grounded in every part of my imagination
Speaker 2: as a little girl. The things that I imagined stuff
Speaker 2: that I thought up, not like one day I want
Speaker 2: to be a fireman, knowing you can be a fireman
Speaker 2: like you think it up, not even thinking it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1: Actually you knew it was gonna happen.
Speaker 2: Though there was a time in my life where I
Speaker 2: started truly checking into the belief that I'm close to
Speaker 2: this and this could happen. But I have to tell you,
Speaker 2: for the bulk of my upbringing, I dreamt of it.
Speaker 2: I wished and hoped and prayed, But if you asked
Speaker 2: me at twelve, maybe even seventeen, I could not for
Speaker 2: real tell you yes one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to push back on you. Tell me
Speaker 1: what you think, and I'm coming from my own experience,
Speaker 1: so I may be projecting. Yeah, I never knew if
Speaker 1: the career in journalism that I envisioned would work out.
Speaker 1: I still don't know, but I feel this calling in
Speaker 1: my gut, in my heart, in my mind anytime things
Speaker 1: are difficult. I have been almost broke so many times. Yes,
Speaker 1: where any normal person would be like girl, exit, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't. Yeah, I feel as you're telling me about this,
Speaker 1: I feel that in you.
Speaker 2: I know that feeling. I know that feeling, and you
Speaker 2: know what it says, you know the saying about answering
Speaker 2: the call. Yes, there, it keeps tying, it keeps calling,
Speaker 2: And there's a time where you actually answer the call,
Speaker 2: that you check in and all of a sudden you're striving.
Speaker 2: It might feel far fetched, it might feel like it's
Speaker 2: a hard and tough road, but you know it's possible, right,
Speaker 2: But there's a part before you even answer the call
Speaker 2: where you're just naively living with the calling.
Speaker 1: But it's in you.
Speaker 2: There, it's there, but you're naively living with it without
Speaker 2: like I can tell you the moment where I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I know I'm going to be an actress. I know
Speaker 2: for a fact. There was a play that I did
Speaker 2: in grade twelve. It was part of my finals because
Speaker 2: I took the class in school as a class and
Speaker 2: I remember that performance, and I remember coming out of
Speaker 2: that performance and thinking, I feel something so larger than
Speaker 2: life about this experience, that there's something there that I
Speaker 2: need to take real heed to. And then I remember
Speaker 2: that same year we had workshops arts workshops, and Tondy
Speaker 2: Newton had come to the school and she was a
Speaker 2: workshop instructor for the acting theater part. And I remember
Speaker 2: going to that workshop and seeing everybody around me and thinking, Oh,
Speaker 2: everybody's having a great time, but this is serious for me,
Speaker 2: Like this is not a game for me, Like this
Speaker 2: is not like, oh so.
Speaker 1: Great Toundy Newton is here.
Speaker 2: It's that, but it also means so much more to
Speaker 2: me than I'm realizing it does to the people around me.
Speaker 2: And I remember I did a performance during that arts
Speaker 2: workshop as well where I felt like I had I
Speaker 2: was outside of my body, outside of my body.
Speaker 1: It was a spiritual experience, like.
Speaker 2: Where you're like, that was a me. I was a
Speaker 2: vessel for something right now that I that was not me,
Speaker 2: and I knew the affirmation that I had done it
Speaker 2: and what I was feeling was real. Tandy Newton wrote
Speaker 2: me a letter before she left, and she she was like, you.
Speaker 1: Need to keep going. Here's these are the movies.
Speaker 2: You should watch. And I remember she had sectioned it
Speaker 2: out watch these when you're eighteen or over. These are
Speaker 2: the ones you can watch now you have a true
Speaker 2: gift a blauh blah blah, And I remember reading that
Speaker 2: and thinking, Okay, I knew I felt something. That was
Speaker 2: the moment where I truly checked in, like, oh, hold on,
Speaker 2: it's game seven.
Speaker 1: I felt what you felt.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, like she felt what I felt.
Speaker 1: Have you spoken to her since?
Speaker 2: Yes, I have, and I've reminded her as special.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I still have the lets, so she wrote, had
Speaker 1: wrote it. You did an interview with Entertainment tonight about
Speaker 1: before you came to the US. Yes, you said, I
Speaker 1: dreamt a lot of things. I couldn't imagine what they
Speaker 1: looked like. But in my dreams, I have seen this
Speaker 1: room before. Why does that make me emotional? What room? Again?
Speaker 2: It's all the things as a little girl, I would
Speaker 2: sit there playing by myself, imagining all sorts of things
Speaker 2: like cameras, spaces like this, like being interviewed, or like
Speaker 2: I've dreamt I've thought, I've dreamt of those moments, and
Speaker 2: I get emotional about it because truly, truly, in those moments,
Speaker 2: you don't think it's a real thing. It's a pastime.
Speaker 2: It's the thing that gets you by. It's the thing
Speaker 2: that carries you from one moment to another moment to
Speaker 2: another moment that like keeps your sanity, that like, my
Speaker 2: mom is gonna get on me forgetting for saying like
Speaker 2: so many times during this interview, but I cannot describe
Speaker 2: in words what it feels like to have things realized
Speaker 2: like this. It's surreal for me. Yeah, yeah, it's it's surreal.
Speaker 2: And to know and now trust and believe that there
Speaker 2: is more and that there's a whole world out there
Speaker 2: that awaits that. It's barely even the beginning, I mean, overwhelming.
Speaker 1: And you trust in that. I trust in that one.
Speaker 2: Hundred percent at this point if I've never trusted trusted
Speaker 2: in it before.
Speaker 1: My whole heart is in it. My entire heart is
Speaker 1: in it. You're in the room. I'm in the room, Mama.
Speaker 1: I made it like I'm here.
Speaker 2: I'm here, and there's no greater feeling. There's no greater feeling,
Speaker 2: no great to honor.
Speaker 1: Truly. Yeah. Oprah was interviewed about you and about the school,
Speaker 1: and she said, the greatest reward anybody can have is
Speaker 1: giving your presence, your time, your energy, your love to
Speaker 1: somebody else, and then seeing that helped somebody flower into
Speaker 1: who they were supposed to be. So watching Tondo became
Speaker 1: all that I knew she could be when she first
Speaker 1: walked into our little meeting room with her uniform. On
Speaker 1: so many years ago. It's been one of my life's
Speaker 1: great rewards. I don't know why. I'm fla to see
Speaker 1: that happen and to see her blossom into this incredible
Speaker 1: woman that she's still becoming.
Speaker 2: Get it together.
Speaker 1: That first line about since being the greatest gift and
Speaker 1: then helping somebody become what they are meant to be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh. If you could describe her presence in your life, yeah,
Speaker 1: what words do you use to describe it?
Speaker 2: I remember the day that I lost my mom. She
Speaker 2: was in South Africa visiting the academy, and when she
Speaker 2: found out, her and Auntie Gail Gail King, they came
Speaker 2: to my room and they sat with me in silence.
Speaker 2: I went in between crying to silence to crying to silence,
Speaker 2: and she held me through that entire thing again with
Speaker 2: my dad. The day she entered my life, she has
Speaker 2: never faltered. There is not a day I have to
Speaker 2: question whether she will be there or not. A constant
Speaker 2: and I told her this Mother's Day. We were boohoo
Speaker 2: and crying because I said to her, God truly gave
Speaker 2: me a second chance, another chance to be mothered and
Speaker 2: loved in the most unconditional fearce present way possible, and
Speaker 2: I'm eternally grateful. I counted all joy, I counted all
Speaker 2: the ultimate blessing. A lot of people lose parents, lose
Speaker 2: people in their lives, people who are irreplaceable. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: they don't get the second chance to be loved in
Speaker 2: that way again. So I don't take for granted how
Speaker 2: unconditionally I am held in her heart. I do not
Speaker 2: take it for granted. That is who she is. And
Speaker 2: I have times with her when we're just hanging out
Speaker 2: and I'm like, the world will never know the world
Speaker 2: will never know that this is you, that this is you,
Speaker 2: how much you carry, how much of my load you've
Speaker 2: helped me carry.
Speaker 1: The world will truly never know that woman's heart.
Speaker 2: If you think it's pure gold, imagine it pure. There
Speaker 2: is none like her.
Speaker 1: None, none, it seems that way. None.
Speaker 2: None.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you use the word mothering because you have
Speaker 1: an energy. It's the intrinsic joy that she has. I've
Speaker 1: watched almost every interview she's ever done, and there's a
Speaker 1: quote I love. When people have been through the most,
Speaker 1: they have the most to give. Yeah, and you both
Speaker 1: carry that, but it's with that joy it's almost like
Speaker 1: the universe paired, like you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I know one hundred percent in my prayers every day
Speaker 2: I thank God and all that is, Yeah, that is
Speaker 2: planned for.
Speaker 1: This very experience for me. I know one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: That this is centuries in the making. Yeah, centuries in
Speaker 2: the making, centuries of my ancestors, her ancestors.
Speaker 1: The greater it.
Speaker 2: Coming together to a line like this, there is no
Speaker 2: other way to explain it.
Speaker 1: There's a speech from Maya Angelo, who part of your lineage, right,
Speaker 1: so your chosen lineage? Yes, And she talks about I
Speaker 1: think she was giving a graduation speech. She talks about
Speaker 1: bringing everyone in the room with you. Have you seen
Speaker 1: that one? Yes, So bring all your ancestors. There's all
Speaker 1: the people that loved you. Bring them into the room
Speaker 1: and know that you are supposed to be there.
Speaker 2: Yes, that you come as one, but you stand. Yes,
Speaker 2: this is ten thousand so many who have come before you.
Speaker 2: That is exactly it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, knowing that.
Speaker 2: Centuries in the making, before we were even a thought,
Speaker 2: this was supposed to happen, was supposed to happen the
Speaker 2: exact way it is.
Speaker 1: Have you ever talked about that with her? Do you
Speaker 1: feel like she thinks that too.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always tell her, well, first of all, COVID happened.
Speaker 1: And I'm like.
Speaker 2: She calls me and she's like, did you hear this
Speaker 2: this thing called what are you going to do? And
Speaker 2: I'm like, I.
Speaker 1: Don't know, what are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm coming to you and she's like, all right, well,
Speaker 2: come the minute.
Speaker 1: Literally the whole world shuts down.
Speaker 2: It's me and her like we made it. We're stuck
Speaker 2: here together about like, oh my god, what is happening
Speaker 2: out there? I mean every time the first time I
Speaker 2: get COVID, I'm like, I'm on my way to you.
Speaker 3: She's like, are you sure, because I'm like, no, I'm
Speaker 3: on my way.
Speaker 1: I test positive for COVID.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, it's me and you again, Oh my god,
Speaker 2: thanks for taking care of me.
Speaker 1: There are so many moments where we just.
Speaker 2: There's no way. Yeah, there is no way. I don't
Speaker 2: care if you believe in science and science alone, there's
Speaker 2: no way you can account for the alignment of something
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: In Yiddish, there's a word kismet. Yeah, it means destiny,
Speaker 1: That's exactly it. It was kismut.
Speaker 2: It was kismut there's no way. I can't make sense
Speaker 2: of it. She can't make sense of it. But we're here,
Speaker 2: You're here, We're here.
Speaker 1: Okay, have one more Oprah question for you. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was this funny podcast I listened to. It was a
Speaker 1: Soul cycle instructor, a Polo instructor, and she said, as
Speaker 1: she was transitioning from an attorney to a Peloton instructor,
Speaker 1: she was thinking about, like, if I get one shot,
Speaker 1: one question, if I'm in a room with somebody, what
Speaker 1: am I going to ask them? Because everybody wants to
Speaker 1: be in a room with Oprah, with Bill Gates, with
Speaker 1: these people, but then they get there and they don't
Speaker 1: know what they're gonna say. Right, I'm sure you've asked
Speaker 1: her hundreds of questions I have. What is one sort
Speaker 1: of piece of advice or wisdom of Sundays should we
Speaker 1: say that she's given you that really stays with you?
Speaker 1: You know what?
Speaker 2: I first of all a lot, because starting from the academy,
Speaker 2: the reason we call it a leadership academy is because
Speaker 2: so much of it is grounded in who she is,
Speaker 2: since she's one heck of a leader, spiritual leader, one
Speaker 2: heck of a human being to be led by. So
Speaker 2: I've so soaked in, soaked up so much of her
Speaker 2: wisdom over the years as Miss Winfrey and as mom
Speaker 2: and as you know. But I think one thing that
Speaker 2: has carried me and that I share even with all
Speaker 2: my friends, and has helped me a lot on my
Speaker 2: healing journey we talk so much about. She always says,
Speaker 2: wherever you go or wherever you are, there you will be.
Speaker 2: And essentially that is no matter the room, what you
Speaker 2: run from, the outfit you change in and out of
Speaker 2: who you are and what you are carving yourself out
Speaker 2: to be in this world will follow you through and through.
Speaker 2: And so the choices that we make on a daily basis,
Speaker 2: the choice that we make to heal our wounds, our scars,
Speaker 2: are not for now, for this space, for the time being,
Speaker 2: for you, for my grant, It's for my.
Speaker 1: For you, because it will always be with you.
Speaker 2: Wherever you are, there, you will be. There is not
Speaker 2: a thing you can run from when it is in here,
Speaker 2: same way, there is not a thing the world can
Speaker 2: take from you if it is in here same way.
Speaker 2: That is one that sticks with me through and through.
Speaker 2: I share it with every person that I love dearest,
Speaker 2: because it changed my life knowing that if I prioritize here,
Speaker 2: I'm good on any block, literally anywhere. I can spend
Speaker 2: so many hours by myself.
Speaker 1: And feel I'm perfectly at peace. I don't feel loneliness
Speaker 1: a lot.
Speaker 2: Which is something that you know you've lost as much
Speaker 2: as I've lost you. Yeah, you're prone to it. The
Speaker 2: average person is prone to it. Who has what I
Speaker 2: had and more?
Speaker 1: You know. But when you prioritize self and giving in to.
Speaker 2: You, you're good solid.
Speaker 1: You got some rapid fire. Girl. Listen to a performance
Speaker 1: that will always move you.
Speaker 2: There's a performance by a jazz artist. Her name is
Speaker 2: Miriam Makeba, South African jazz artist. It was one of
Speaker 2: her final performances, and I always just think of all
Speaker 2: she went through. So much of who she was reminded
Speaker 2: me of my grandmother, and my grandmother went through so
Speaker 2: much through apartheid, the government, blah blah, surviving as a
Speaker 2: young girl. And yeah, something about that moment just reminds
Speaker 2: me that my grandmother went through so much and like
Speaker 2: overcame favorite movie of all time. This is ridiculous, but
Speaker 2: thirty flirty and thriving. Why something about her?
Speaker 1: Hope? Have you met Jennifer Garner. I have never met her,
Speaker 1: and she'll be so happy.
Speaker 5: I'm sure.
Speaker 2: Don't play with me literally if I there's something about her, hope,
Speaker 2: her joy when she is an adult living in her
Speaker 2: like thirteen year old self body, the inhibition, the just joy.
Speaker 2: My favorite partner come on and she calls him onto
Speaker 2: the floor and she's just like, let's just live.
Speaker 1: Like have you tried Raseles yet?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: I haven't.
Speaker 2: I haven't tried Razseles, but all I know is when
Speaker 2: I can, I'm going to get a dress made that
Speaker 2: is the exact same I saw. I think it was
Speaker 2: Olivia Rodrigo or someone who like wore it and like
Speaker 2: it was an o to her and I'm like, I
Speaker 2: cannot wait.
Speaker 1: To get myself that dress. That's great.
Speaker 2: I love thirty flirty and thriving. I have you have
Speaker 2: no idea, It's it's ridiculous and I've I've watched everything
Speaker 2: from I'm a huge Daniel day lewis your streep like
Speaker 2: Sophie's choice.
Speaker 1: Like but thirteen going on thirty my jam? I feel
Speaker 1: that way about First Wives Club, so I know it,
Speaker 1: get it? Yeah? What is a South African phrase that
Speaker 1: you love?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 3: My gosh, that's so funny.
Speaker 2: There's a phrase I use all the time that's like
Speaker 2: hybel and it means like so many things, from like
Speaker 2: no ways to say it ain't.
Speaker 1: So, to like what, to like no, she did it.
Speaker 2: It means so many things, and I say it all
Speaker 2: the time, even to my American friends. I'm like, you
Speaker 2: don't understand.
Speaker 1: Me, But hybel what all the time? My favorite. There's
Speaker 1: certain things from different languages that just don't translate. It
Speaker 1: just doesn't translate.
Speaker 2: It doesn't translate, but it means everything all at once.
Speaker 2: It's like, say you are lying to what is that too?
Speaker 3: Damn girl?
Speaker 2: I mean it's it's like everything.
Speaker 1: Do you remember an American phrase that like you learned
Speaker 1: when you first came here that you liked.
Speaker 3: There are a couple like recently, I really.
Speaker 2: Love child child, Oh child, I also loved that's lit.
Speaker 1: It's lit, it's lit, it's lit. There are a couple.
Speaker 1: I mean, I went to an HBCU.
Speaker 2: So so much Black culture is like, you know, influencing
Speaker 2: like popular culture. So there are lots, They're lots. That's
Speaker 2: probably the mildest I find what is your superpower?
Speaker 1: My hope? I was gonna say your joy. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's your hope and my hope.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think I'm a very hopeful person. Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: think part and part of that is the joy. But
Speaker 2: I believe in goodness through and through. I believe in
Speaker 2: good things. I believe in good people. I see the
Speaker 2: best in things before I see the worst. It's probably
Speaker 2: the reason why I'm terrible for this business. I always
Speaker 2: tell my people like protect me. I might be a
Speaker 2: little naive for this because I insist on seeing goodness.
Speaker 2: I insist on being on being hopeful.
Speaker 1: I do too. Yeah. Yeah, I know you're a reader.
Speaker 2: I love.
Speaker 1: Is there a book? This is a bookie podcast. Okay,
Speaker 1: is there a book that changed your life that you
Speaker 1: think everybody should read? Number one?
Speaker 2: The Untethered Soul Michealeysinger life changing. Also, you can read
Speaker 2: it at so many stages of your life and get
Speaker 2: so much from it.
Speaker 1: Number two The Gift Edith Eager. I haven't read that
Speaker 1: really good.
Speaker 2: She's a Holocaust survivor. She's actually I think she's like
Speaker 2: in her nineties. She's still alive. But she talks so
Speaker 2: beautifully about trauma and grounding yourself in it. And this
Speaker 2: is somebody who's gone through so much and is able
Speaker 2: to see the joy and happiness in life. And there
Speaker 2: are lots of people who go through trauma and they
Speaker 2: carry it and it is a mark on their lives,
Speaker 2: a mark on their happiness, on.
Speaker 1: Their ability to dream.
Speaker 2: Trauma changes people so much, makes people give up on
Speaker 2: the best of themselves. And something about that book reminds
Speaker 2: you to remain in your hope and know that life
Speaker 2: gets better. And honestly, if somebody can go through something
Speaker 2: like that and still see goodness and joy in life,
Speaker 2: then come on.
Speaker 1: We got this. We're okay? Yeah, okay, question everything.
Speaker 2: I love card game.
Speaker 1: We have the pretty smart card deck. Okay, so people
Speaker 1: always choose the card they're meant to have, so feel free?
Speaker 1: Should I read it? Yeah? What's a sech.
Speaker 2: Oh when was the last time you felt rejected?
Speaker 1: That's a thorne for me?
Speaker 2: Really, yes, because I had such a rocky relationship with
Speaker 2: my dad growing up, and it took so much work
Speaker 2: in my adult life to come to terms with him
Speaker 2: and see him as human and not a dad that
Speaker 2: little girl and me needed and wanted, And so I
Speaker 2: had to do so much work to overcome feeling, especially
Speaker 2: in relationship with men not feeling rejected or feeling seen
Speaker 2: and heard. But I'll tell you the last time I
Speaker 2: felt rejection was actually kind of recently with somebody who
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed, like, and they were going through a.
Speaker 1: Grief of sorts.
Speaker 2: And I know grief, and I know that people deal
Speaker 2: with grief in different ways, but I had tried to
Speaker 2: reach out to you know, you know, I'm here if
Speaker 2: you want to talk. You know, I wanted to be
Speaker 2: a vessel in that moment, because I like, I'm a professional.
Speaker 1: Griever at this point.
Speaker 2: And his response was essentially, I don't have the energy
Speaker 2: right now to engage, so I need space. And it's
Speaker 2: logical and sensible and I know it just fine, But
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, it felt like, Okay, I guess you
Speaker 2: don't need me or want me right now. I've I'm
Speaker 2: over it now. But in the moment, there was a
Speaker 2: little sting.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, there's that looks more than a
Speaker 1: little sting. That would sting me too, Yeah, a little trauma,
Speaker 1: little tickle at the wound.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But logically I understand people grieved it differently. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's logical for being honest.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, last question, the smartest decision you've ever made.
Speaker 1: I've made a couple. Give you're a smart girl.
Speaker 2: Smartest smartest decision I ever made was saying yes to
Speaker 2: go into the Oprah Win for Leadership Academy. My life
Speaker 2: was forever changed by submitting that. Because as much as
Speaker 2: my principal strongly suggested it, recommended it, there was a
Speaker 2: huge part of me that was like, this is not
Speaker 2: a real thing.
Speaker 1: I watched the show.
Speaker 2: She never said this. I don't know about this. I've
Speaker 2: never even dreamt of going to a boarding school.
Speaker 1: I'm twelve.
Speaker 2: Why do you want to take me away from my grandmother?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: But I remember saying I'm taking it. I'm going there
Speaker 2: because it's going to take the weight off of my
Speaker 2: grandmother's shoulders. And that was the immediate thought. I thought,
Speaker 2: you know, the best fix of my life. But really
Speaker 2: it changed the entire trajectory of my life.
Speaker 1: It changed.
Speaker 2: Everything. Yeah, everything, best decision ever and the best decision
Speaker 2: they made was accepting me.
Speaker 1: Okay, one last question. Yeah, it's a favor. Really. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you when you're first asker, I want to be
Speaker 1: the first one to interview, truly, I have to tell you.
Speaker 2: On my way here, I thought to myself one day,
Speaker 2: I'm actually going to share the story that Danielle was
Speaker 2: one of the first people to.
Speaker 1: Be like, come check this out. You're going to be something.
Speaker 2: I thought of that as I was in the ubam
Speaker 2: my way here. I was like, this is one of
Speaker 2: those things where you look back on and you're like,
Speaker 2: this was one of my.
Speaker 1: First like big oh. I felt really connected to your spirit.
Speaker 2: I felt you made this so easy to refreshing when
Speaker 2: you can sit in a space and still feel the
Speaker 2: raw emotion of your journey, of how much this means
Speaker 2: to me, the gravity of this moment and sit opposite
Speaker 2: somebody who feels it, who feels.
Speaker 1: It for you. So I'm grateful for that. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: That's the greatest thing you could say. Thank you, It's
Speaker 1: the truth.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 1: All right, today is a good day. To have a
Speaker 1: good day. I'll see you next week. Mm hmm.