1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,560
Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,800
Speaker 2: And welcome back to George Noriy along with Joseph L. Flatley.

3
00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,680
Speaker 2: His book is called The Occult Timothy Leary. His website

4
00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,440
Speaker 2: is linked up at coastocostam dot com. Joseph, what did

5
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 2: you learn about Timothy Leary that you did not know

6
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:18,720
Speaker 2: prior to writing the book?

7
00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,440
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's I mean a lot, but I

8
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 3: think really the thing that impressed me the most was that,

9
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,880
Speaker 3: you know, if you take his writing, or his speeches

10
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,280
Speaker 3: or his media from any particular part of his career,

11
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:45,159
Speaker 3: whether it be talking about virtual reality in the personal

12
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,320
Speaker 3: computer in the eighties and nineties, or whether you talk about,

13
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 3: you know, more mainstream psychology in the fifties, or he

14
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,280
Speaker 3: talked about psychedelic drugs in the sixties, there is a

15
00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,280
Speaker 3: real he was always kind of talking about the same thing.

16
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:07,600
Speaker 3: There was a real connection between his thought, like a

17
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,199
Speaker 3: real through line, and it just I was just really

18
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,679
Speaker 3: impressed by his Although he comes across as a character

19
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 3: underlying all of his kind of media pranks and his

20
00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,200
Speaker 3: sense of humor, is a real seriousness. Of this real seriousness,

21
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,480
Speaker 3: a real serious project to like kind of help humanity

22
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 3: evolve to whatever its next stage is supposed to be.

23
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,800
Speaker 3: So remarkable consistency. I mean, I could have started this

24
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,640
Speaker 3: show or this book and found that there was no

25
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 3: there there, and then he really was just all smoke

26
00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,039
Speaker 3: and mirrors. But I have to say it's exactly the opposite.

27
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 3: The guy was a genius and he was a great thinker,

28
00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 3: and his stuff is really I think interesting and applicable today.

29
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,440
Speaker 2: It is, And he dived deep into consciousness much more

30
00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:55,400
Speaker 2: than I thought he did.

31
00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,920
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, absolutely, you know, and he I mean, ultimately

32
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,080
Speaker 3: that was his kind of like, you know, his perspective

33
00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,200
Speaker 3: was that, you know, drugs unlock consciousness, different states of consciousness,

34
00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:19,320
Speaker 3: just like yoga, just like Western magical tradition. All these

35
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,040
Speaker 3: are kind of getting at the same thing, which is,

36
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,440
Speaker 3: how do we examine the human mind and its possibilities

37
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,839
Speaker 3: and how do we kind of go beyond what we're

38
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,120
Speaker 3: doing because on a day to day basis, we're mostly

39
00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,679
Speaker 3: just concerned with paying the bills, you know, keeping a

40
00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,480
Speaker 3: roof over our head, but humanity could be so much more.

41
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 3: And I think his project at the end of the

42
00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,119
Speaker 3: day was to help lead people there.

43
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,720
Speaker 2: What got him interested in tyrot cards.

44
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it was that whole thing where he's looking.

45
00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,200
Speaker 3: He's trying to find precedence to his you know, he's

46
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,840
Speaker 3: a man in a twenty century experimenting with psychedelic drugs

47
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 3: and there is no user guide, there is no roadmap.

48
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,720
Speaker 3: So he's looking at the ways that you know, people

49
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 3: in the past looked at the human experience and kind

50
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:20,920
Speaker 3: of understood consciousness. And he recognized he recognized early on.

51
00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,320
Speaker 3: He you know, when he started experimenting, experimenting with psychedelics,

52
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,360
Speaker 3: he found so sought out the people that had been

53
00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:33,559
Speaker 3: there before him, So the beat generation, so Alan Ginsburg, Uh,

54
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,000
Speaker 3: william S Burrows, even Jack Herroac to a limited extent,

55
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,800
Speaker 3: were uh brought in to help him and Harvard try

56
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 3: to understand what these drugs are doing. And then once

57
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 3: he found that they had been for years exploring the

58
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,839
Speaker 3: same train he was and having some of the same

59
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,240
Speaker 3: insights he was, he went further back to see what

60
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 3: else could be there, and he, you know, remarkably, he

61
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,400
Speaker 3: looked at tarot cards and saw that the symbolism of

62
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:06,760
Speaker 3: the tarot card is very similar to his like perspective

63
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 3: on the structure of consciousness. He almost used the tarot

64
00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 3: as like a pre digital software system, viewing the cards

65
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 3: as a neurological map to help users navigate and categorize

66
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 3: different states of consciousness.

67
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,080
Speaker 2: How would he today Joseph use artificial intelligence had he.

68
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,640
Speaker 3: Been around well, you know, he you know, towards the

69
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 3: end of his life, he was adapting his ideas into

70
00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,719
Speaker 3: you know, the then current high technology so software for

71
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,039
Speaker 3: Apple computers. And I think with AI, it's it's just

72
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 3: it would be so much more powerful. Like, you know,

73
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 3: there's I use AI a lot. I've made my you know,

74
00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 3: I've made it my business to try to kind of

75
00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 3: understand it. And I see my friends and my colleague

76
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,159
Speaker 3: some people on social media discussing AI, and it's like

77
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,080
Speaker 3: almost as if they don't, I don't understand what they're

78
00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 3: getting out of it or not getting out of it.

79
00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,360
Speaker 3: People see it as like a shortcut to generating text

80
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 3: or generating images.

81
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,359
Speaker 4: Just think it's or the devil, Yes, but really it's

82
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,840
Speaker 4: an extremely powerful tool that you know, it's kind of

83
00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 4: like you add it to your executive functioning, you know,

84
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,880
Speaker 4: you kind of offload some of the things that are

85
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,239
Speaker 4: difficult for you onto the computer and I think Leary

86
00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 4: would have, you know, run.

87
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 3: Gangbusters with that.

88
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,200
Speaker 2: How mystic was he.

89
00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,240
Speaker 3: Well, very much so, definitely in his like sixties and seven,

90
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 3: in the sixties and the nineteen seventies when he was

91
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:50,840
Speaker 3: exploring that stuff. You know, part of the project of

92
00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,279
Speaker 3: my book is because he was not a clear writer.

93
00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,200
Speaker 3: You read his books, especially his later books, and sometimes

94
00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:57,960
Speaker 3: you have no idea what the heck he's talking about.

95
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,200
Speaker 3: And so part of my project was to go through

96
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,560
Speaker 3: his books and kind of like find the precedence. So

97
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 3: part of the ex you know, everybody thinks about the

98
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,400
Speaker 3: psychedelic drugs, but you know, when he had the the

99
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,039
Speaker 3: you know, commune in Millbrook, they were experimenting with Gurgieffian

100
00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,920
Speaker 3: techniques and yoga and mystical techniques to try to get

101
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,080
Speaker 3: the same effects that drugs did. So he was very

102
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 3: you know, you can't actually separate mysticism from psychedelics in

103
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:33,440
Speaker 3: Leary's practice.

104
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,160
Speaker 5: And I know you're gonna want some after hearing this.

105
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 5: This is an amazing story.

106
00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 6: We've got Steven and Malachi Gregory in Nelson, New Zealand.

107
00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 5: Now I understand that Malachi, who is eight almost nine

108
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,039
Speaker 5: years old now, was suffering with not just one or

109
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,799
Speaker 5: two warts, but I mean as significant outbreak of warts

110
00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,520
Speaker 5: all over his body, so significant it impacted his ability

111
00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:53,840
Speaker 5: to really function.

112
00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:54,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

113
00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, he was having trouble even holding a pencil to right. Ever,

114
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,599
Speaker 6: Tis book, Actually that got me thinking about it.

115
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised.

116
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,600
Speaker 5: It is an amazing immuno modulator, and so I can

117
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 5: see that it would work. And so at what point

118
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 5: did you see that there was actually improvement it's really

119
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 5: going to work.

120
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,000
Speaker 6: Well, we really started to notice it around twelve weeks.

121
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 6: You can see these things actually getting smaller and smaller

122
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,280
Speaker 6: and then going down to the with just little red marks.

123
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,559
Speaker 6: The whole things are gone, and we're talking about what's

124
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,440
Speaker 6: you know one that size for the Warner. I thought,

125
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,120
Speaker 6: no way, that's gonna Wow. That's just been miraculous to

126
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 6: see them get into a pair of shoes.

127
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 1: Yes, how wonderful.

128
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 6: It's great to see.

129
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 5: I'm so happy and yet it absolutely wonderful.

130
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 1: Friends that have seen it, that is blown away.

131
00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:40,200
Speaker 3: TI, this is awesome.

132
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:41,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is awesome.

133
00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,200
Speaker 7: Another amazing story. Why we're talking about carnivora call them

134
00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 7: to awaken your immune system and protect yourself now called

135
00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 7: one eight sixty six eight three six eighty seven thirty five.

136
00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,840
Speaker 7: That's one eight six six eight three six eighty seven

137
00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 7: thirty five. Or visit carnivora dot com c A r

138
00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 7: niv A carnivora dot com.

139
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,480
Speaker 2: If he were around today, based on all the charges

140
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 2: that he had in those days, the thirty six arrests,

141
00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,640
Speaker 2: most of which would have been tossed out today, how

142
00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:13,760
Speaker 2: would he be viewed?

143
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,040
Speaker 3: You know, that is a good question. I would think

144
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,440
Speaker 3: I would hope that, you know, he wouldn't be in

145
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 3: trouble for drugs, but he'd find some other way to

146
00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,000
Speaker 3: to cause trouble, so, you know, I mean his version

147
00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 3: of philosophy. I think his perspective is what good is

148
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 3: it if you're not upsetting people, if you're not making enemies.

149
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,720
Speaker 2: Did he cross over too far when he got to

150
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,920
Speaker 2: be friends with the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers.

151
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:47,840
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think he tried it on,

152
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 3: and he, you know, he disavowed them quickly. A great

153
00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,560
Speaker 3: deal of his reputation was tarnished when he stopped, you know,

154
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,480
Speaker 3: hanging out with those guys. Because the radical left and

155
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,280
Speaker 3: just the you know, cultural left, you know, especially in

156
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,120
Speaker 3: San Francisco, in La saw him as a trader to

157
00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 3: the revolution, and I don't think he was ever a

158
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,400
Speaker 3: revolutionary to begin with.

159
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 2: Prior to your book, Joseph, I thought he was just

160
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,840
Speaker 2: a whacked out guy. But once I got into it,

161
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,880
Speaker 2: I realized again, this guy was a genius.

162
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,000
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, And I mean I think I think he

163
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,280
Speaker 3: maybe didn't do himself any favors as far as his

164
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 3: public appearances and his writing. Part of this project, like

165
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,840
Speaker 3: I said, was trying to understand is there something to

166
00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,080
Speaker 3: this guy? And yeah, absolutely, And I think, you know,

167
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 3: it's the world is such a mess and the news

168
00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,199
Speaker 3: is so depressing. It was such a privilege to be

169
00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,480
Speaker 3: able to spend a year and a half kind of

170
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:56,080
Speaker 3: involving myself in the optimistic message of Timothy Leary. And

171
00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 3: I think that the world could use that right now.

172
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 2: He needed somebody strong with him to help guide him.

173
00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 2: I think in those days.

174
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,600
Speaker 3: Ah, yeah, I mean he always had you know, you know,

175
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,840
Speaker 3: definitely in his biography, he always had his supporters, He

176
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,600
Speaker 3: always had, you know, his co conspirators, his teammates. And

177
00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,640
Speaker 3: I think he kind of lost the plot a little

178
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 3: in when he was in exile in Switzerland because he

179
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 3: didn't have those strong people with him. He was you know,

180
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,360
Speaker 3: it's you know, you can be too much of a genius,

181
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,360
Speaker 3: he can be kind of a nutty professor. And you know,

182
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 3: maybe that's what Tim was, That's where he was.

183
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,200
Speaker 2: At what got him to dabble with the occult.

184
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:45,040
Speaker 3: It was just the parallels between what occult writers have

185
00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,240
Speaker 3: been writing about for a thousand years and what he

186
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:52,719
Speaker 3: was experiencing using psychedelics. I mean, it's pretty remarkable that

187
00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,439
Speaker 3: they invent LSD in the twentieth century and it unlocks

188
00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 3: states of consciousness that you know, people were writing about

189
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:07,280
Speaker 3: in these manuscripts and grimoires a thousand years ago.

190
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 2: Why was LSD created in the first place.

191
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 3: Albert Hoffman was looking for some sort of like headache

192
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 3: like some sort of aspen replacement or something something to

193
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,440
Speaker 3: care headaches, and which you know, I don't I don't

194
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,959
Speaker 3: know if LSD would ever cure my headaches. But when

195
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,200
Speaker 3: they act. When Albert Hoffman accidentally ingested it, he discovered

196
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 3: that it had effects far beyond carrying a headache.

197
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,079
Speaker 2: And also respiratory issues they were working on, weren't.

198
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:39,959
Speaker 3: They right, right?

199
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah?

200
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 3: I think so.

201
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 2: Is it still legal or is it illegal now?

202
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,320
Speaker 3: It's it's very illegal.

203
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 2: That still is. So that's one thing Tim stay Leary

204
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:55,960
Speaker 2: would not have been able to get through.

205
00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, there was there's an argument that that

206
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 3: Lear he set back psychedelic research by making himself such

207
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,520
Speaker 3: a large, larger than life character that was hated by

208
00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 3: the establishment, that he kind of besmirched the reputation of psychedelics.

209
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,840
Speaker 3: I don't know if I buy that. I mean, I mean,

210
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 3: that's what happened, but who knows. If he'd kept his

211
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,800
Speaker 3: mouth shut, who knows what would have happened. Somebody else

212
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 3: would have found a reason to, you know, throw hippies

213
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,839
Speaker 3: in jail. So I don't think it's Stem's fault.

214
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,680
Speaker 2: Do you think he was a likable guy.

215
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 3: I think he was very likable. I think it was

216
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 3: very charming. Everybody I know who's known him. I never

217
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,720
Speaker 3: had a chance to meet him, but I know several

218
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,760
Speaker 3: people who know him, and they all, you know, they

219
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 3: all can't say enough nice things about him.

220
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,440
Speaker 2: I think he would have been a good guest on

221
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:47,199
Speaker 2: this program.

222
00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I would love to hear that.

223
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,719
Speaker 2: I wonder what he would have said.

224
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,480
Speaker 3: Turn on to an in drop out.

225
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:05,080
Speaker 2: Maybe when he finally passed. Was there much of a

226
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:06,160
Speaker 2: announcement about that.

227
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,040
Speaker 3: You know, now I'm trying to think back thirty years.

228
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,800
Speaker 3: You know it was, I mean, it was definitely uh

229
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,960
Speaker 3: I you know, I think he kind of dropped off

230
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 3: of the radio radar. I spoke to his publisher, Christopher

231
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:29,280
Speaker 3: Hyatt before Christopher passed, and he said that, like as

232
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 3: soon as Tim died, book sales dropped off. But you know,

233
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,679
Speaker 3: maybe this my book and some of the other major

234
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,439
Speaker 3: biographies or minor biographies about tim that have come out

235
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 3: in the last you know, a couple of decades, maybe

236
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:43,719
Speaker 3: we're you.

237
00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:49,880
Speaker 2: Know, changing that your publisher's destiny Destiny books. Were they

238
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,080
Speaker 2: excited about the book or did you have to sell

239
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:52,600
Speaker 2: them on it?

240
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 6: Oh?

241
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 3: It was. I've never had a book picked up or

242
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 3: picked up so quickly. I think it took about two

243
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,040
Speaker 3: days for it really go through the process. Yeah, yeah,

244
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,280
Speaker 3: it was. It was delightful. It was actually almost too fast.

245
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,079
Speaker 3: I thought, this is this can't be right. I mean,

246
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,520
Speaker 3: usually you got to try to sell them on it

247
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,200
Speaker 3: a little bit. But I guess I write a good,

248
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:15,199
Speaker 3: good proposal.

249
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 2: Did your editor publisher know who Timothy Leary was?

250
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, they had published books about him in the past.

251
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,280
Speaker 3: And but my take is different. You know, It's like,

252
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,080
Speaker 3: you know, it's not a strict biography, although there's definitely

253
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 3: biographical material. It's a exploration of his ideas. And I

254
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,640
Speaker 3: don't think anybody's really undertaken that that project of you know,

255
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,400
Speaker 3: trying to see trace his ideas through you know, his

256
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,000
Speaker 3: whole life, and to trace you know, the influences of

257
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,560
Speaker 3: esotericism and the occult on him.

258
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,320
Speaker 2: I love the forward in your book by the pseudonym

259
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,280
Speaker 2: of Ken Goffman.

260
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 3: Are you serious?

261
00:14:58,840 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 1: What a great name?

262
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,120
Speaker 2: Huh?

263
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:01,400
Speaker 1: Oh?

264
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,720
Speaker 3: Yeah? Are you as a Are you is up there

265
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,960
Speaker 3: with George Nori as the people I've always wanted to meet.

266
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,560
Speaker 3: So it's very exciting to me.

267
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,240
Speaker 2: One day, my friend is here in Pennsylvania, aren't you?

268
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm in Pittsburgh.

269
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,360
Speaker 2: It's a great town. Steel mill companies still they still

270
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:19,400
Speaker 2: making steel.

271
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 3: There, not too much. I know one working we're in

272
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,080
Speaker 3: working plant. But they've turned this steel mills into other things.

273
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:29,520
Speaker 1: So like.

274
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 3: Carnegie Mellon University has got a big robotics and AI

275
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,880
Speaker 3: and automation program. They have one of the steel mills

276
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 3: that's now they're churning out robots that go to the Moon.

277
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,760
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean we're still kicking. We've Pittsburgh has

278
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 3: been very lucky as far as the rest belt goes.

279
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 3: We've found ways to to keep going.

280
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,800
Speaker 2: On your cover, what's the image on the left of

281
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 2: Timothy Leary?

282
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,360
Speaker 3: Oh, it's ah, that is the figure of the fool

283
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 3: from the the tarot card cards.

284
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:07,480
Speaker 2: That's what I thought.

285
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, very first card in the deck is the fool?

286
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,080
Speaker 2: What made you pull that card to put on the cover?

287
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:16,840
Speaker 3: I did not design the cover.

288
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 2: But publish.

289
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's but it's kind of perfect. You know.

290
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 3: It's like the fool in the tarot is not an idiot.

291
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:33,040
Speaker 3: You know, it's the first, very first stage of consciousness

292
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 3: or what it is to you know, very first stage

293
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 3: of being a human. And also it's it's in it.

294
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 3: It's welcoming to adventure and kind of you know, devil

295
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 3: make care, which I think there's no better way to

296
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,480
Speaker 3: describe tim than a devil make care adventurer.

297
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 2: What do you think Timothy would be saying today about

298
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,840
Speaker 2: the way cannabis has been legalized.

299
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 3: I think he'd be all for it. I think he'd say,

300
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 3: why did I spend so many years in prison for

301
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:03,720
Speaker 3: having one joint?

302
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:05,480
Speaker 2: Why did you people do this to me?

303
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:12,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's unbelievable. I mean, here in this part

304
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 3: of the country, we've you know, I'm working on another

305
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,000
Speaker 3: story about about a commune that was raising HEMP and

306
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 3: the FBI came in and assassinated the two guys, like

307
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,679
Speaker 3: you know, And this was two thousand and one. And now,

308
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 3: like I said, I can drive through the dispensary by

309
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 3: my house and get whatever I need.

310
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,200
Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

311
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,480
Speaker 1: one am Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot

312
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 1: com for more