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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Citizen with Baritune Day, a show

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Speaker 1: where we reimagine the word citizen as a verb and

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Speaker 1: remind ourselves how to wield our collective power. I'm Baritone Day.

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Speaker 1: There is a lot of stress in the United States

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Speaker 1: right now, and it feels like it could explode at

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Speaker 1: any moment. In fact, it already has. Our president has

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Speaker 1: refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if

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Speaker 1: he loses the upcoming election. Members of the current administration

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Speaker 1: have celebrated and encouraged political violence beyond the context of

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Speaker 1: an election. We've had armed skirmishes in our streets, violence

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Speaker 1: directed by and at law enforcement. Citizens have killed their

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Speaker 1: fellow citizens at protests. Personally, I've never known so many

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Speaker 1: self described liberals to talk so openly about taking up arms.

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Speaker 1: This feels scary. We don't bring guns to ballot boxes.

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Speaker 1: It's the opposite of patriotism and the undermining of democracy.

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Speaker 1: There is a better way to do this. Years ago,

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Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to host a PBS television series

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Speaker 1: comprised entirely of ted talks, and one of those speakers

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Speaker 1: stuck with me four years. She spoke passionately about non

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Speaker 1: violence as a force more powerful than violence from making change.

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Speaker 1: She referenced a hundred methods, an oddly specific number, methods

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Speaker 1: of non violent strategic action that could bring down authoritarian

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Speaker 1: regimes or prevent them from rising. Given the current situation

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Speaker 1: in my beloved United States, I knew I needed to

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Speaker 1: speak with her. This is my conversation with Jamila Rakib,

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Speaker 1: executive director of the Albert Einstein Institution and a sort

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Speaker 1: of coach to non violent activists around the world. I'm

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Speaker 1: Jamila Rakkeib, and I'm an oppressor's first nightmare that was

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Speaker 1: the sound of bombs being dropped. Y'all, all right, we'll

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Speaker 1: keep it. We'll keep it. I'd love for you to

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Speaker 1: start us off, Jamila, with a brief history of strategic

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Speaker 1: nonviolent resistance or action. What is it? How is it

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Speaker 1: formalized into a field of study of practice? Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: I think when we think about strategic non violent action,

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Speaker 1: we tend to think of many different things at the

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Speaker 1: same time, and it sort of loses meaning, right. I

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Speaker 1: think the popular conception is that nonviolent action is somehow

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Speaker 1: about reject violence, that it's about, you know, what you

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Speaker 1: don't do rather than what you do instead. But what

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Speaker 1: we study right, is distilled from thousands of years of

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Speaker 1: history of cases where people have used not violence, but

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Speaker 1: other means social political, economic, acts of non cooperation, different

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Speaker 1: types of protests, non violent intervention. You talked about the

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Speaker 1: one methods. These are a collection of all the kind

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Speaker 1: of catalog of the types of actions people have taken.

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Speaker 1: And so strategic non violent action really refers to groups

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Speaker 1: throughout history using these means for particular objectives. And what

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Speaker 1: Jean Sharp, my mentor and colleague, did was look at

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Speaker 1: these cases and say, you know, we usually equate this

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Speaker 1: type of action with Gandhi or King, but actually there's

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Speaker 1: this rich history and the idea is, you know, people

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Speaker 1: have been using it in an improvised way without a

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Speaker 1: lot of knowledge or access to resources. What might be

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Speaker 1: done if we actually looked at this type of action,

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Speaker 1: study it to figure out what makes it succeed, what

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Speaker 1: are the factors that contribute to failure, and how can

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Speaker 1: those lessons really be used by social political movements today

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Speaker 1: to make what they're doing more powerful and more effective.

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Speaker 1: And so it's a body of work, it's a research field,

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Speaker 1: and it's also a type of action that people are

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Speaker 1: doing around the world. You know, every day you are

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Speaker 1: the executive director of a place known as the Albert

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Speaker 1: Einstein Institute. When I hear that, I imagine particle accelerators

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Speaker 1: and time travel research. What's the connection between Albert Einstein

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Speaker 1: and the study of strategic use of non violent resistance.

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Speaker 1: It's a great question, and it's a question that we

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Speaker 1: get a lot. Unsurprisingly, it can be for some like

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Speaker 1: a bit of a confusing name, and we get lots

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Speaker 1: of emails and phone calls asking about scientific theories that

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Speaker 1: we don't understand. So there's a couple of ways to

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Speaker 1: answer that, and I think that the one that's really

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Speaker 1: key here is that Jean Sharp, our founder in his twenties,

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Speaker 1: was a conscientious objector to the Korean War, and he

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Speaker 1: also was at the time studying the Indian independence movement

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Speaker 1: and what Gandhi had done. So he wrote his master's

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Speaker 1: thesis on the book about Gandhi. And he was also

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Speaker 1: at the same time facing a prison term for his

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Speaker 1: conscientious objection, and so he reached out to Albert Einstein

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Speaker 1: and said, you know, I'm about to go to prison

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Speaker 1: and I've also written a book. And that was during

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Speaker 1: the McCarthy era, and Einstein was you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: a mentor to a lot of people who were, you know,

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Speaker 1: refusing to cooperate with the draft board or with the

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Speaker 1: stuff going on with McCarthy um. And so they formed

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Speaker 1: this sort of pen pal relationship. And this is also

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Speaker 1: sort of a nod to Einstein's views at the end

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Speaker 1: of his life, during this time where he was having

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Speaker 1: this correspondence with Jean Sharpe where he said, you know,

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Speaker 1: Gandhi is a brilliant political strategist. This theory and type

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Speaker 1: of action is the best hope we have to deal

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Speaker 1: with these very very serious political questions of our time.

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Speaker 1: And so really at the end of his life he

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Speaker 1: thought non Band of Resistance really offered humanity a very

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Speaker 1: powerful tool for social justice and political justice. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's where the name comes from. Albert Einstein's pen Pal

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Speaker 1: is a great title of a story I want to

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Speaker 1: consume in any medium. What's your story with this, Jimmie,

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Speaker 1: How did you get connected to this work? Why does

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Speaker 1: it matter to you? Yeah? I wish there was like

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Speaker 1: a great story to it. But really I applied for

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Speaker 1: a job, a job that I thought was a one

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Speaker 1: year position. I had just finished school. But before that,

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Speaker 1: of course, I my own history is that I was

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Speaker 1: born in Afghanistan during the Soviet War, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: I grew up with really the war as a backdrop

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Speaker 1: to my childhood. Uh. We became refugees in the US,

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Speaker 1: but even as we lived in the US, in Maine,

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Speaker 1: of all places, we had our eye to the country

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Speaker 1: we were from, and really disturbed by the level of

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Speaker 1: suffering going on there, but also really in tune with

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Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, people were waging this holy war,

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Speaker 1: this war for the defense of their homeland, and so

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Speaker 1: really this idea that war was necessary, that it was

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Speaker 1: you know, a just war. And so I grew up

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Speaker 1: with really, you know, that kind of backdrop, really thinking

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Speaker 1: about war and violence and conflict, knowing that there's a

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Speaker 1: terrible cost to war, but that is something that we

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Speaker 1: have to use sometimes for so called good purposes. So

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Speaker 1: that was really my thinking until I found this work,

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Speaker 1: until I got you know, kind of connected with the

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Speaker 1: Albert Einstein Institution, where I came to it as a skeptic.

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Speaker 1: I thought this was about people in the US telling

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Speaker 1: other people from a place of privilege that violence was

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Speaker 1: morally wrong, that they shouldn't do it, you know, not

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Speaker 1: really connected with the level of suffering that goes on

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Speaker 1: and and how are people to you know, fight against oppression.

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Speaker 1: And so I learned very quickly that this isn't a

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Speaker 1: moralistic condemnation of war and violence. It's really about offering

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Speaker 1: an alternative that is actually powerful, as powerful as as

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Speaker 1: war and violence, if not more. And so that is

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Speaker 1: hugely appealing. And I think it's that connection that I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people make to the work, you know,

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Speaker 1: when they find out that this is a centuries old,

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Speaker 1: it's something very human, doesn't require us to be good

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Speaker 1: morally good requires us to be stubborn, and that we

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Speaker 1: know humans are really good at. And so it was

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Speaker 1: this idea that wow, this is like totally accessible, right,

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Speaker 1: It's not something that Amahatma Gandhi does, It's something I

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Speaker 1: can do. And so I think that's the big attraction

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Speaker 1: to the work, as it was for me as well.

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Speaker 1: So the one your position turned into, well, it's continues

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Speaker 1: until today, this idea that non violence is more powerful

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Speaker 1: than violence. I think we'll meet some skeptical minds when

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Speaker 1: they hear it. And I've heard you say before that

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Speaker 1: you have this image that we have that non violence

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Speaker 1: is some moral attempt two change the heart of the oppressor.

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Speaker 1: It is a false understanding of its power. Can you

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Speaker 1: ground us in the source of the power of non

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Speaker 1: island civil resistance and action? So I think at the

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Speaker 1: root of it is an understanding of power. Right, It's

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Speaker 1: absolutely at the heart of it. I think that we

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Speaker 1: understand power as if somehow it's inherent to our political leaders. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's actually in according to establish political theory, right, as

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Speaker 1: well as our understanding of the world, not and how

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Speaker 1: it we want it to be, but in fact how

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Speaker 1: it is, and that is that we give our institutions

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Speaker 1: and our leaders and our political systems power through what

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Speaker 1: we do or what we refuse to do. And so

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Speaker 1: that's at the heart of it, right, is the theory

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Speaker 1: of consent of power. And so you know, we think

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Speaker 1: that you know, even in the most authoritarian systems, that

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Speaker 1: people and institutions provide various types of skills and assistance

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Speaker 1: and obedience and cooperation. That cooperation and assistant allows those

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Speaker 1: systems to function. And so it's that cooperation and obedience

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Speaker 1: and those skills are either kind of restricted or in

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Speaker 1: severe cases, if it's completely withdrawn, then powerholders are left

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Speaker 1: with none of the power that they need in order

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Speaker 1: to survive. And so in extreme cases you could see

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Speaker 1: like a disintegration, right, which is a complete overthrow of

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Speaker 1: an oppressive government. And then at other stages, it could be,

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Speaker 1: you know, a type of by exerting this power, you

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Speaker 1: could create a situation where you get an accommodation or

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Speaker 1: a coercion. But it's not about asking for something right,

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Speaker 1: it's about understanding that actually, again, you hold power by

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Speaker 1: what you do and what you refuse to do, and

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Speaker 1: if you do that in a collective then it can

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Speaker 1: be greatly destabilizing to the power of an oppressive system.

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Speaker 1: There's an additional powerful notion that I came across in

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Speaker 1: some other interview did with a different podcaster, But I

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Speaker 1: loved it so much because it was breaking down this

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Speaker 1: false idea that you're trying to ask an oppressor to

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Speaker 1: be nice to you, to just come around to morally

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Speaker 1: see the error of their ways, and actually that strategic

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Speaker 1: nonviolence is about the oppressed people finding their power, right.

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Speaker 1: It's actually it's not about appealing to the oppressor. It's

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Speaker 1: appealing to yourself and seeing yourself as a source of power.

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Speaker 1: When you combine with other people, and that is not

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Speaker 1: an obvious interpretation when I hear nonviolence, and so I

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Speaker 1: think it's a really powerful, no pun intended point. And

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Speaker 1: thank you for kind of breathing some life into that

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Speaker 1: a bit with us here. Yeah, that's really key. I

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Speaker 1: think there's an amazing quote where this like sociologists, this

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Speaker 1: Indian sociologist says he's sick and tired of people saying

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Speaker 1: that we need to melt the heart of the opponent. Right.

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Speaker 1: What we need to do, he said, is melt the

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Speaker 1: heart of the oppressed, right, to change the heart of

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Speaker 1: the oppress so that they see their own power. And

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Speaker 1: so he was he was talking about the Indian independence movement,

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Speaker 1: but also more generally, really about this kind of the

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Speaker 1: conditions that allow oppressive systems to function, and that it's

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Speaker 1: deeply rooted to people's own unders standing of their own power.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is so connected to our world

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Speaker 1: today and then to our country today, because I think

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Speaker 1: when we think about power, we tend to think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, places of dictatorship or authoritarianism or these severe

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Speaker 1: places that's where people feel apathy. But in fact, our

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Speaker 1: own society also has a lot of trouble with this,

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Speaker 1: you know, the sense of kind of inertia, our apathy,

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Speaker 1: which is not that people don't care, right, people definitely care.

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Speaker 1: They know that there's huge stakes here, but it's really

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Speaker 1: about feeling helpless and and in the face of those forces,

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Speaker 1: you know. And that's why I think, you know, having

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Speaker 1: tools and understanding and basic literacy and civil resistance that

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Speaker 1: that you talked about earlier is really so key. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's you know, it's really that engaged citizen

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Speaker 1: rate that prevents these types of violations from happening. I

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Speaker 1: understand all of this sounds very theoretical, but we're gonna

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Speaker 1: get practical. We're gonna bust open that toolbox right now

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Speaker 1: because you and your institute have a list a hundred

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Speaker 1: methods of non violence. So for those on the violence

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Speaker 1: side of the ledger, there's an armory and there are

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Speaker 1: small arms, and there are tanks and their aircraft and

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Speaker 1: the carriers thereof. But you've got a methods. Can you

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Speaker 1: describe how you've organized the tools and methods of nonviolence

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Speaker 1: and give us some examples of how different they might

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Speaker 1: be and how they're being used. Yeah, I think the

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Speaker 1: list of methods is something it goes back to like

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, so it's before my time, but you know,

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Speaker 1: Jean Sharp started collecting these. He realized that there was

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Speaker 1: this massive diversity of things people had done. That it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just simply about protest, right, It wasn't simply about

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Speaker 1: dissatisfaction with an existing system or policy or a set

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Speaker 1: of rulers. Right. It was actually this whole range of

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Speaker 1: things people had done, and that actually it was useful

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Speaker 1: to think about them in categories, right, to think about

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Speaker 1: them in the sense that there's the first batch or

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Speaker 1: group of methods that are really symbolic right there about

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Speaker 1: kind of expressing dissatisfaction, and what they do is con

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Speaker 1: a to the society, to third parties, and to the

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Speaker 1: opponent that people, you know, disagree with a particular policy

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Speaker 1: or function of the government. And then you move into

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Speaker 1: again a more powerful category, which is the methods of

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Speaker 1: non cooperation. These are ones we might have heard of,

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Speaker 1: like boycotts and economic non cooperation. Different types of strikes.

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Speaker 1: Strikes are very very diverse. We generally tend to think

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Speaker 1: of a general strike you just shut down the whole

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Speaker 1: country for you know, indefinite period of time, But they

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Speaker 1: are sometimes limited, limited in terms of types of industries

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Speaker 1: or what they're intended to do, or for particular periods

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Speaker 1: of time. You have strikes that are a day long

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Speaker 1: or whatever. So there's these kinds of non cooperation that

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Speaker 1: are economic or political, like withdrawal of political systems, refusal

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Speaker 1: to carry out certain functions in the government, and so

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Speaker 1: they really are looking at society where does power lie

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Speaker 1: and who has historically withdrawn it for a particular effect.

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Speaker 1: And lastly, we have what we consider the most powerful methods.

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Speaker 1: These are the methods of nonviolent intervention. So I think

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Speaker 1: that you know, generally a lot of people sort of

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Speaker 1: equate nonviolent action to kind of undermining systems. Right. These

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Speaker 1: are the methods that are actually the creation of institutions,

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Speaker 1: the building of society. The ones that are actually quite subversive,

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Speaker 1: because what it means is that you're creating the new,

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Speaker 1: you know, before you get rid of the old, and

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Speaker 1: that actually you're making that old obsolete because of the

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Speaker 1: creative They include things like creation of again alternative institutions,

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Speaker 1: alternative media, civil disobediences is in there, and creation of

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Speaker 1: shadow institutions, shadow governments. We saw like a rogue ep

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Speaker 1: A group spring up, you know, this would be an

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Speaker 1: example of non violent intervention. How do you know what

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Speaker 1: tool is right for what circumstances? People are facing a

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Speaker 1: variety of levels of legitimacy to their government, levels of

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Speaker 1: protests or or disagreement with what their governments are doing.

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Speaker 1: And I have a far fetched example in mind, like

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Speaker 1: let's say your head of state refuses to leave office.

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Speaker 1: What are the tools that might be a populous disposal

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Speaker 1: in that super hypothetical situation. So this is not necessarily

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Speaker 1: something that can provide sort of like a formula for this, right,

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Speaker 1: But when I know, right, there's no shortcuts in this stuff.

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Speaker 1: But here's what we know. A lot of the kind

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Speaker 1: of trends and conditions that we see in this hypothetical

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Speaker 1: situation you point out, we've seen before, right, So we

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Speaker 1: do know that there's a way in which kind of

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Speaker 1: illegal or executive usurpations or cruise if you want to

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Speaker 1: call it, that happen, and there's ways in which those

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Speaker 1: have found historically defeated. Looking at those lessons that those

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Speaker 1: kind of cases provide, you know that there's sort of

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Speaker 1: general categories of methods that have been really useful. The

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Speaker 1: idea of Defeating a coup or illegal and constitutional action

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Speaker 1: by an executive is something that requires a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: One is a rejection, widespread rejection of the illegal action

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Speaker 1: by as many people as possible, as quickly as possible,

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Speaker 1: and the second is non cooperation with the coup. How

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Speaker 1: do you pick methods? This is a great question because

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Speaker 1: I think you know, the list of methods is exciting,

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Speaker 1: but it's also in a way dangerous, right, because these

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Speaker 1: methods are not meant to work on their own without

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Speaker 1: an understanding of how they work together as part of

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Speaker 1: a strategy. So a situation where you have a potential

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Speaker 1: attack on the government, I mean this is something for

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Speaker 1: which people should be prepared, right, People should be prepared

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Speaker 1: in the sense of when we understand what democracy is,

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Speaker 1: we should know that it's part of a process, a

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Speaker 1: process where there could be attacks against it, whether internal

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Speaker 1: or external, and so having a sort of so called

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Speaker 1: civilian based defense policy, right, something that is prepared in

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Speaker 1: advance for situations like this is super helpful. Now we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves in the midst of a crisis. So what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying is is not potentially helpful. Right, This is

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Speaker 1: for the next time, But right, now we're in a

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Speaker 1: crisis moment, right, and so I think what a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are thinking about is how do you foster

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Speaker 1: super decentralized action that is still effective and that feeds

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Speaker 1: into a kind of larger strategy. Who is working on

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Speaker 1: that strategy? So I think what we're seeing in our country,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take it non hypothetical for a moment,

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Speaker 1: is that people recognizing that we're facing this potential crisis

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Speaker 1: that could bring a lot of harm to our communities

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Speaker 1: and to our country, are figuring out what to do quickly.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that you know, they're working on

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Speaker 1: developing a response to various scenarios that experts are identifying,

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Speaker 1: and they're figuring out what is the role of different

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Speaker 1: people and institutions in our society. There are the people

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Speaker 1: that are going to need to cooperate with illegal orders,

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Speaker 1: and so those are going to be people within various institutions,

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Speaker 1: you know, people that work in the electoral system, police

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Speaker 1: and members of our government, elected officials and others. And

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Speaker 1: then there's really the rest of us. So what do

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Speaker 1: the rest of us do? The rest of us are

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Speaker 1: still part of various groups. We're part of different associations.

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Speaker 1: We are individuals, but we're also workers, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have different types of leverage, and so figuring out

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Speaker 1: what groups we belong to and how those groups could

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Speaker 1: be mobilized again to do those two things. The rejection,

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Speaker 1: you know, the rejection of the coup as loudly and

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Speaker 1: clearly as possible, in whatever ways we have to communicate

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Speaker 1: that to make sure it's understood that this is not acceptable.

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Speaker 1: And also the non cooperation in what ways can we

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Speaker 1: refuse to cooperate and do certain things or refused to

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Speaker 1: do other things that can really block certain things from

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Speaker 1: happening at the community level. But do that in accordance

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Speaker 1: with a common vision, some common goals, and I think

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Speaker 1: people are working on those principles. They're working on rolling

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Speaker 1: out like tactical recommendations to people. There's a number of groups,

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Speaker 1: maybe some people on our call today are familiar with those.

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Speaker 1: So there's the creation of new groups that are thinking

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Speaker 1: about this, and then there's also the strengthening of existing groups.

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Speaker 1: And that's the two things we need to be doing.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like your work has become more relevant

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Speaker 1: in the United States over the past four years and

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Speaker 1: are you particularly worried or increasingly worried about what you've

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Speaker 1: seen play out in the US over the past four years. Yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 1: I think your first question it is definitely increasingly relevant.

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Speaker 1: I know that from the number of inquiries we're getting

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Speaker 1: from the access to our website, tapping into resources and material,

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Speaker 1: people ordering books. It's hard to keep things in stock

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Speaker 1: these days, anti dictatorship material. I think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: people sort of fear the worst, and I think the

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Speaker 1: best antidote to that is to prepare. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: if we develop these capacities and then the worst doesn't happen,

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Speaker 1: then there's no harm there. But the idea that we

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Speaker 1: would have this kind of thinking through of what what

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Speaker 1: has been done historically to fight against authoritarianism, I think

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Speaker 1: is really the smart move. So it's a busy time

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Speaker 1: for people working in civil resistance, for sure. What have

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Speaker 1: you seen on the non violence side of strategic use

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Speaker 1: of this over the past few years that has made

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Speaker 1: you feel good, something worth celebrating, a novel deployment of

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Speaker 1: one of these methods or several, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: it's the creation of networks and new groups that are

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Speaker 1: thinking about this, that are thinking of you know, these

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Speaker 1: sort of incremental violations that we've been seeing in our

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Speaker 1: country and figuring out how to respond to it at

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Speaker 1: a community level. Clearly a lot, you know, more needs

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Speaker 1: to be done. I think we're in a moment of opportunity,

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Speaker 1: a moment of responsibility to figure out, you know, how

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Speaker 1: to use what we've been paying attention to, what we've

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Speaker 1: been learning, what we've been preparing for, to really mobilize

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Speaker 1: in this moment. But you know, I think that some

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Speaker 1: of the best stuff that I've seen really around climate

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Speaker 1: defense and really about a lot of the stuff that

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Speaker 1: we've seen in the progressive movement. Young people coming together,

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Speaker 1: young people doing like tons of trainings and you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to develop the skills and the knowledge and the

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Speaker 1: sort of plans needed so that, you know, in a

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Speaker 1: moment of crisis they could act effectively. So it may

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Speaker 1: be that the best stuff that I've seen is really

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Speaker 1: the behind the scenes stuff. You know, we've seen huge mobilizations,

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Speaker 1: right we saw the biggest protests in our country's history

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Speaker 1: were over the summer, the racial justice protests, and that's

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Speaker 1: an enormous show of power and it's great. Right people

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Speaker 1: who have been marginalized are taking power where they can

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Speaker 1: how they can and winning incremental successes. Have they done

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Speaker 1: everything that they set out to do? Clearly not, because

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Speaker 1: these systems are very well entrenched and that that takes time.

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Speaker 1: So there is the kind of street level action that

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Speaker 1: we've seen with the Women's March, you know, with the

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Speaker 1: young people on gun reform, immigration reform, all of this.

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Speaker 1: It's really heartening, right, but it is the first step.

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Speaker 1: There's got to be the next phase of this, and

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Speaker 1: that has to go beyond simply you know, again sort

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Speaker 1: of bringing attention to injustice to actually shifting things, shifting

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Speaker 1: power in our country. It feels like we have an

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Speaker 1: increasing amount of political violence in the United States, or

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Speaker 1: the threat of it, but certainly the actual user. We

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Speaker 1: have skirmishes in the streets. People have actually been murdered

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Speaker 1: over the course of the past several years at protests

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Speaker 1: which have been largely pful. How do you think about

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Speaker 1: that rise, at least as I'm characterizing it, And how

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Speaker 1: do you think about the presence of violence in and

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Speaker 1: among largely non violent gatherings. Where is that coming from?

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Speaker 1: The huge rhetorical arguments. Are these peaceful protests? Are there

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Speaker 1: a John provocateurs what's your read on how we should

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Speaker 1: read this rising tide. First of all, I think we

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Speaker 1: need to figure out how to interpret that violence, right.

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Speaker 1: I think that there's been a narrative that somehow these

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Speaker 1: were violent protests. In fact, the data doesn't back that up.

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Speaker 1: They were largely non violent, something like ninety seven percent

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Speaker 1: or more. And so the cases where either violence was

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Speaker 1: used against against the police or against others is very

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Speaker 1: very limited. And in cases where violence was used, it

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Speaker 1: was usually from the police or from counter protesters. So

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Speaker 1: that's one I think we need to be careful about

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Speaker 1: kind of characterizing this. Then there's I think the question

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Speaker 1: about the future. I mean, there's so much to it, right,

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Speaker 1: I think there's been a narrative that somehow there's this

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Speaker 1: sort of law and order narrative that somehow protests gets

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Speaker 1: delegitimized because of the actions of a few people. There's

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Speaker 1: a strategic question there in terms of how to prepare

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Speaker 1: for it, because we find ourselves in this situation where,

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Speaker 1: you know, experts are saying that we're facing a period

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Speaker 1: of time that is likely to be characterized by quite

432
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: a lot of chaos and potential political violence. So as

433
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: a society, how do we prepare for that, How do

434
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: we prepare to withstand it? How do we make sure

435
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 1: that it's not used by our people we agree with,

436
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: you know, our our movement. How how do we make

437
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: sure that our movements demands that are legitimate are carried

438
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: out non violently. Right, So, I think the strategic thing

439
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: is to understand that violence is counterproductive, that in fact,

440
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: it carries a cost that we're not going to be

441
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: willing to pay in our society, That justifying limited acts

442
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: of violence is very dangerous. You know, I have a

443
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: colleague that says that, you know, the use of violence

444
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: and a movement is sort of inevitable. Right, You're gonna

445
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: have little bits of violence any time you're getting a

446
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: mobilization of potentially millions of people. The ideas to figure

447
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: out how do you identify it and isolate it, and

448
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: how do you take steps at a strategic level to

449
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 1: anticipate it and to you know, try to prepare for

450
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: it at that level, but also tactically, what do you

451
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: do in the midst of a protest with you know,

452
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 1: all the emotion in that moment, especially groups that are

453
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: being met with repression. How do you make sure your

454
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: movement doesn't turn to violence, because he says that violence,

455
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: even defensive violence in a movement is like moisture in

456
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: the engine of your car. You know a little bit

457
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: of moisture and maybe it's okay, and the engine will sputter,

458
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: but you get to a point where you know it's

459
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: very difficult to control it will be if you add

460
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: more and more of this moisture, this contaminant, then it

461
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: will make the system malfunction. So the movement does potentially collapse.

462
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: So I think under standing violence as being counterproductive is

463
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: something that we need to really really promote in our society.

464
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: Not that it's morally wrong, which we may think it

465
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: is or it's not, but the justification piece is really

466
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: has to be a pragmatic one, right that this is

467
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: unwanted in our society. That has to be very very clear.

468
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I am worried right now about some

469
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: of the conversation about what types of action is allowable,

470
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: and so I think we need to be prepared for

471
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: that in terms of, you know, what we need to

472
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: be doing at a tactical level. I think we should

473
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: be prepared for groups that are willing and have the

474
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: capacity to use violence. We've already seen that in our streets,

475
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: and so there's a variety of ways in which we

476
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: can reduce that risk to communities. There's a bunch of

477
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: tools like the development of peacekeeping teams. These are groups

478
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: of people that are especially trained to identify violence and

479
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 1: to isolated to make sure it's not being used by

480
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: the movement. That's something that's worked around the world. It

481
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: was used in the Indian independence movement. It was also

482
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: used in the civil rights movement. You know, the use

483
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: of marshals that participate in demonstrations to again make sure

484
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: that people don't use violence and to isolate them when

485
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: they do. Besides that, you know, some of the best

486
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: examples are ways in which groups have used humor and

487
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: actually deflated right wing groups or armed groups. There's some

488
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: cool examples where you know, people have heard that there

489
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: was going to be a right wing rally and basically

490
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: flooded that public square with like clowns. And I found

491
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 1: this an incredible example and happened in North Carolina where

492
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: they said that these groups showed up one by one,

493
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, these individuals that had showed up for this

494
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: right wing rally, they found the square filled with clowns,

495
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: and they really didn't know what to do in response

496
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: to it, so they kind of left. So I find

497
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: that celebration of joy and love and music and culture

498
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: and art in our community as being an amazing, amazing

499
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: sort of antidote to right wing violence. What comes next

500
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: in your studies after pro test movements? You mentioned the

501
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: largest protests in at least some definition of history that

502
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: we've just been through in the United States. How do

503
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: you sustain that energy but morph it into different tactics

504
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: to achieve the goals, which is never just to protest?

505
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: What have what have you seen? Do you have any

506
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: studied advice for the next steps for protest movement to grow?

507
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: I think it's such a great question, and I think

508
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: that there's no clear answer right now. What we're seeing

509
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: is that, you know, there was this massive mobilization of

510
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: groups that I think that the danger there is that

511
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: if people think that you know, structural major change for

512
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, centuries old system can be overturned by that

513
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: type of in the streets demonstrations, that that can actually

514
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: lead to a sense of kind of helplessness. And so

515
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: I think we need to celebrate the victories we have

516
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: achieved so far in the racial justice movement, and there

517
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: have been a lot of important incremental winds and and

518
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: to not lose sight of the fact that there's an

519
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: endgame here because a vision of the kind of society

520
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: that we want. And so I would say back to

521
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: the drawing board. This is where strategy is so important.

522
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: Figuring out what are the tools at our disposal, what

523
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: power have we created, and how can we kind of

524
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: escalates right non violently, and how can we grow our demands?

525
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: And I think that means that we see this as

526
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: a process. Right. These events can't be one off, They

527
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: have to be part of long term vision and I

528
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: think we're seeing that in the racial justice movement a

529
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: lot of the kind of strength created that doesn't just

530
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: go away, right. Those are groups that now have developed

531
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: a level of trust, that have actually achieved some big

532
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: wins together. That level of confidence is something that is

533
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: hugely empowering, and I would say communities are going to

534
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: be drawing from that well of power when they go

535
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: on to demand. At the next thing, I'm thinking about

536
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: the crisis that we spoke of earlier, this sort of

537
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: hypothetical with our current head of state, should the election

538
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: and legitimately go not in his favor. What happens when

539
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: the object of such public ire does move on, but

540
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: the systems that have been corrupted remain. Have you witnessed

541
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: collapses or how have movements sustained themselves after the person

542
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: many people perceive of as the villain has formally left

543
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: the stage? You know? I think that the best example

544
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: of this is some of the uprisings of the Arab Spring,

545
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: in which people wage these massive struggles against these entrenched

546
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: opponents that were successful at least in the short term, right.

547
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: I think the problem that we face globally is that

548
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: we tend to kind of almost personalized oppression in the

549
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: sense that we tend to think that individuals are responsible

550
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: for it. And so in the case of some of

551
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: the uprisings of the Arab springs, you know, specifically the

552
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: the Egyptian struggle, I think that there needs to be

553
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: a plan for what comes next, and not just about

554
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: how do you undermine and overthrow the oppressive system or

555
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: the oppressive opponent, but how do you understand that actually

556
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: there were conditions that brought them to power and there

557
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: are also deep structural institutions that are very invested in

558
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: the status quo that are going to make sure that

559
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: they survive, you know, a revolution or uprising or whatever

560
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: the case may be. So I'm thinking about that for

561
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: our own society, right And this is where I think

562
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: it helps to think long term, to understand that we're

563
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: here at this juncture for a number of reasons, and

564
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: also there's gonna be things to do. Even if we're

565
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: successful in the short term, we're gonna have a very

566
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: broken country in which a lot of our institutions have

567
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: been undermined. Authoritarians are in the business of undermining institutions,

568
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: not strengthening them, And so we need to be thinking

569
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: about how do we develop the networks and capacities in

570
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: our communities and at a state level, at a federal

571
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: level that can make sure that this is a transition

572
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: that we all survive, because the idea is not to

573
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: kind of get rid of one potential authoritarian for another,

574
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: and societies are very vulnerable, and so you know, I

575
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: have no clear answer except for we must think about

576
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: not just how to win in the short term, but

577
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: really how to defend that win. And I think that's

578
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: what democracy is. I want to push you on that

579
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: because I love where you're going. This is not about

580
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: the short term. It is about the long term. And

581
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: we've often interpreted democracy as an Olympic effort every four years.

582
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: But even those Olympic athletes are not working every four years.

583
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: They're working every day, their training every day. And that's

584
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: how you get to the Olympics as you work hard

585
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: every day. So, in terms of going past the vote,

586
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: in terms of restoring trust or faith in our institutions,

587
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: what do you want us to do to make this

588
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: long term? What's your vision for how we sustain our

589
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: energy here? I think that a lot of what's happened

590
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: in our country has been deliberate or sort of by design.

591
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: I think, uh, there's a level of divisiveness that is

592
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: really really harmful and dangerous that I think has really

593
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: contributed to where we are today. So I'd say to

594
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: resist that, to resist that in whatever ways that we can.

595
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: I observe something in the United States that I've seen

596
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: elsewhere and that I think students of history have seen elsewhere,

597
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: and it is this sort of isolation and atomization, this

598
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: kind of fragmentation of society, and that is something that

599
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: is as a condition of generally authoritarian systems. Right, This

600
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: idea that individuals are these individual units, and that really

601
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: works to the benefit of power holders, right, because individual

602
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: units are not very good at collective action. So I

603
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: think again, building networks, building networks of trust, maybe with

604
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: people you don't agree with on everything, maybe not necessarily

605
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: politic coal organizations, but networks of people that come together

606
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: to do various things. And so I think that's really

607
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: key for the long term. What resources would you recommend

608
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: for people who have had their appetites weddened by this moment,

609
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: who want to learn more. Well, I think that there's

610
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: a really rich history of non violent resistance that people

611
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,919
Speaker 1: have been studying that we can draw from. I think

612
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: that our education system doesn't really teach us to be

613
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: good citizens. I think we tend to highlight history of

614
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: war and violence as having achieved the changes that we value.

615
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: And I think again, educating ourselves is key. Clearly, change

616
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: of our education system is important, but in the meantime,

617
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: we can practively educate ourselves, and there are groups that

618
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: have been working on developing those resources and tools. My

619
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: organization is just one of them. We have a website

620
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: with a wealth of information. There's some things that are

621
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: nine page books, but then there are things of varying

622
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: length in detail, and some of it is theory, a

623
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: lot of it is, you know, against stories. I think

624
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: these stories are so important, right Our history is filled

625
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: with them, but we just haven't done a good job

626
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: paying attention. I think drawing from them as sources of

627
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: inspiration is key, but also as sources of insight to

628
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: figure out what we ourselves can do, right. I mean,

629
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: just as the conditions we're facing right now are not

630
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: happening for the first time, they're happening in different parts

631
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: of the world, and they've happened throughout history, so they're

632
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: not new, which is actually good news, right because it

633
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: means that we have a set of tools on on

634
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: how to respond to them. So again, the Albert Einstein

635
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: Institution has a lot of resources. There's also other centers

636
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: like International Center of Non Violent Conflict Nonviolence International. There's

637
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: a website called Waging Nonviolence which collects these stories as

638
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: they're sort of happening, and I think that's also a

639
00:36:49,880 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: great resource to get more information. We ask all of

640
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: our guests this question. Our show believes that the word

641
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: citizens should better be interpreted as a verb as action,

642
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: rather than a strictly a legal status given that interpretation,

643
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: How do you, Jamila, define what it means to citizens?

644
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: That's a wonderful question and I really appreciate the approach

645
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: of this conversation and the definition that you've just offered.

646
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: I think that again I would look to the civil

647
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: resistance field and our understanding of history on how to

648
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: be a good citizen, and I think that really requires

649
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: us to figure out how to be engaged, how to

650
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: understand the issues again, to be educated and informed, to

651
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: know our rights right, but also to know what to

652
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: do if those rights are violated, and again speaks to

653
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: this issue of resisting apathy and inertia. I think it's

654
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: just a mass for feeling helpless, accessing tools, figuring out

655
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: how to connect with others, how to work with others,

656
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: including again people who we may not agree with, to

657
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: have a basic sort of literacy, and how change happens.

658
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: So I would say the educational piece is really really key,

659
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: and I think again it is an important moment right now.

660
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: This moment of crisis is a moment of opportunity. Uh.

661
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: And it may be that it's this moment, this crisis,

662
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: that gives us all sort of a crash course and

663
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: how to citizen I like that a lot, Jamala or Key,

664
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: thank you for this formal one on one time. I

665
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: have an observation which is thinking about the imbalance of

666
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: education on these techniques and these strategies. We have the

667
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: Naval College, we have West Point for violence, you know,

668
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: for war, um, we don't have the equivalent for peace.

669
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: And have just occurred to me like, if we invested

670
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: as much in the education of these tactics, lot of

671
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: the changes that have happened have not been at the

672
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: end of a gun or a bandet or sword, but

673
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 1: at the end of an idea or a word or

674
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: a person standing in the street. So thank you for

675
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: opening me up a little bit to that. I'm going

676
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: to open up to our live studio Zumio audience. First up, Adrian,

677
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: Hi Barrattende. Thank you so much for your expertise. Jamila.

678
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: I'm Adrian. I'm calling in from Memope, California, but I'm

679
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: an educator, so I really appreciate you bringing in the

680
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: education piece to this. One of the things that has

681
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: been on my mind as we kind of see social

682
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: media and the media both manipulated and both a tool

683
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: for us in the non violence movement. How have you

684
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: seen the disinformation aspects of that used against these movements,

685
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: and what are some successes that you've seen in organizers

686
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: combating that and maybe some challenges that we have yet

687
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: to overcome. Yeah, I think it's a real problem. I

688
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: think it's one that we're seeing is highly relevant in

689
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: this moment. I think there's awareness of it is a

690
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 1: good first step. I think being more critical about where

691
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: we get our information. I think that the technology companies,

692
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: of social media companies do need to be pressured to

693
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: combat this. But then at the end of the day,

694
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: I think we need to be very critical about what

695
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: we're hearing and what the motivation for that might be.

696
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: We're seeing some really really dangerous signs of this. So

697
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: I think right now, as far as people working on

698
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: the response to election unrest, are trying to develop alternative

699
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 1: media places where people can get information on reporting about

700
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: both what people are doing, what civil society groups are doing,

701
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 1: you know, organizations and movement people, but also you know

702
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 1: what we're seeing in terms of the use of violence,

703
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: police repression, so that people can access good information and

704
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: respond appropriately, because developing tactics and strat g without good

705
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: information is obviously really, really dangerous so I think it's

706
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: the creation of alternative media. I think the good news

707
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: is that people are being trained as sort of citizen journalists.

708
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: We see this around the world in cases where you

709
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: have misinformation or you have media controlled by the state,

710
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: regular people can act as journalists and figure out, you know,

711
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: how to filter that information to law enforcement or to

712
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, government officials, or to movement people to the

713
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: general public. And I think that is something that people

714
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: are working on and which is really important. When coming

715
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: next to ned Ames, Ned I'm calling in from Madison, Wisconsin,

716
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: and my question is you mentioned before about needing to

717
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: focus on what comes next as part of a successful movement.

718
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: Is there a complementary work that you or the Etin

719
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: Institute is that are pursuing that emphasizes the building what

720
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: comes next part of that equation. There's some books that

721
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: are focused on there's some studies that are focused specific

722
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: be on how to strengthen institutions and legislative bodies and

723
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: other agencies of the government that can serve as sort

724
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: of protective mechanism. And those are books like Civilian based

725
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: Defense is one of them, the Anti Coup is another one,

726
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: and then there's other organizations that deal with that, that

727
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: set up truth and reconciliation committees that deal with how

728
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: do you kind of recover from harm, recover from violent society.

729
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: So I think there are there are organizations that deal

730
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: on the what comes after, But I think the key

731
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: is that in the development of a strategy for undermining

732
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 1: a system or for defending a system, that it really

733
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: needs to be about the immediate need, but also the

734
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: longer term one, and that needs to be sort of

735
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: at the front end, sort of central to leadership thinking.

736
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: We have another live question, Vanetta. It is with your question.

737
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: I am Vanetta. I'm from Springfield, Massachusetts. My question is

738
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: more about really preparing people or the everyday person to

739
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: participate in the act of non violent protests, because I

740
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: think you know, people are going out, it's all about

741
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: protest protests, protests, and it's supposed to be peaceful, and

742
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: then you get there and now you're hit with tear gas,

743
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: people actually getting injured or shot and things like that,

744
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,720
Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering if the institute has any resources

745
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: that really prepare folks for what they're getting into, prepares

746
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: them for if things, for whatever reason go sideways, and

747
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: then what does that do to you as the person

748
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: who wanted to go out and do good and now

749
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: you know you're traumatized because you witness these things that

750
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: we're supposed to be positive turn negative. So I'm just

751
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: wondering if there's any preparation and or resources, if you

752
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: all provide for that. Yeah, so we mainly are collecting

753
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: those resources. We don't deal with that ourselves because a

754
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 1: lot of groups are very good at that. So there

755
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: are a lot of trainings, there's quite a number of

756
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 1: them right now about how to participate effectively in a protest,

757
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: and how to prepare for violence, how to again marginalize

758
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: it if it if it does or isolated if it

759
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: does break out, and how to prepare for things like

760
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 1: tear gas, you know, for potentially water cannons. We're seeing

761
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: a huge spite and the purchase of crowd control supposedly

762
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: non lethal equipment, heavily militarized equipment by our federal governments.

763
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: And we have a lot of historical and global president

764
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: to this right and so we have a lot of

765
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: learnings from other movements on how people have prepared for that.

766
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: And you may have seen the umbrella movements in Hong

767
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: kong Uh and I think they are incredibly savvy with

768
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: the way in which they deal with some of the

769
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: equipment that's been used against them, and so they've actually

770
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: provided a lot of insight too. I think it is

771
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: really important for a movement to think of that and

772
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: to make those resources available. Right, you talked about what

773
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: it means to go participate and what perhaps you think

774
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: is a non violent pro tests only to be hit

775
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: with tear gas. Tear gas is extremely painful, so is

776
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: a lot of this other equipment, and it's hugely radicalizing. Right.

777
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: I think that's one thing that it actually escalates a conflict,

778
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 1: and so it's really not in the best interest of

779
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: anyone to be using this against citizens that are non violent.

780
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: And I think this is really dangerous, I think for

781
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: what we may see coming, because there's this concept of

782
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: political jiu jitsu. Right. This is like a term Jean

783
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: Sharp came up with. It's that repression backfires. Right. Repression

784
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: is designed to make groups stop what they're doing, to

785
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: make them abandon their activities. But actually what happens globally,

786
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: we've seen this in countless cases. It actually creates a

787
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: stronger resistance. It recruits people to the movement. It actually

788
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: creates fractures among the police, among the security forces, among

789
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: the government. So it's in all of our best interests

790
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: to de escalate and to keep things non violent, and

791
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: to make sure people are prepared for these equipment and

792
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: tools to be used against them. Jamila, having you on

793
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: any kind of show has been a dream of mine

794
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: since we met five years ago and I saw you

795
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 1: do your ted talk for the ted PPS program. Thank

796
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: you for making the time to be with us. We

797
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: have learned a lot. We're gonna make sure to get

798
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: this out to way more people. Thank you so much.

799
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: It's been so great to be with you. Just look

800
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: around your community, do some searches, figure out who is

801
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 1: sort of preparing a response, who is thinking about these issues,

802
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: and then connect with them, connect with each other, connect

803
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: with the available resources. It can get scary to look

804
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: out at what feels like a dark world, but we

805
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: obviously have to retain hope and do what we can

806
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: to prevent that dark future. And I think there's a

807
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: lot we can do. So yeah, it's great to be

808
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: part of this conversation, and thank you all. This moment

809
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: of crisis is a moment of opportunity. And it may

810
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: be that it's this moment, this crisis, that gives us

811
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: all a sort of crash course in how to Citizen,

812
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: thank you to Mila Rakied for helping me reimagine this

813
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: moment of crisis as an opportunity. I hope she has

814
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: done the same for you. Follow Jamila on Twitter at

815
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: Jamila Rakiev that's j A m I L A R

816
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: A q I B. And you can learn more about

817
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: the Albert Einstein Institution at a Einstein dot org. As always,

818
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: we will post this episode of transcript and show notes

819
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: plus more at how to citizen dot com. But now

820
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: for the goodie bag, the calls to action the things

821
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: you can do to citizen along with this episode. First up,

822
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: a couple of internal actions, things that are more calls

823
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: for reflection. Things you can do alone. Give your energy

824
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 1: and attention to the things you want for your country.

825
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna repeat that one for you. Give your energy

826
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: and attention to what you want for your country, not

827
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: as much what you fear. If you journal, or pray,

828
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: or meditate or yoga or do all those at the

829
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: same time, use those practices between now in the election

830
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: to center yourself on what you want to have happened.

831
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: With that clear picture, you will be in a better

832
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: position emotionally and psychologically to prepare your response if things

833
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: don't go the way you want. Walk that fine line

834
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: with me, but do not fall over the edge into

835
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: the abyss of fear and despair and panic. Hang on

836
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: as a powerful visioning example out there a tangible thing.

837
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: The Brooklyn Public Library, where I still serve as a

838
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: member of the board of trustees, did a borrow wide

839
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: exercise crafting amendment to the Constitution, a proposed amendment. It

840
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: is so inspiring to see that we can still extend

841
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: and create this democracy. Check it out over at the

842
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Public Library website. It's under amendment. The other internal

843
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: action is to go to a Einstein dot org and

844
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: look through the hun methods that they've accumulated around strategic

845
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: nonviolent action. Look through that list. It takes just a

846
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: few minutes. But then I want you to do something.

847
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: I want you to identify the things on that list

848
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 1: that you've already employed at some point in your life.

849
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: Then congratulate yourself for being an active, non violent participating

850
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: in our democracy. Well done. See you're already there. On

851
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: the external front. I want you to continue building our

852
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 1: collective civil resistant muscle through some actions right here. Waging

853
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: Nonviolence dot org. It's a website Jamila told us about.

854
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: Go to the site, share it posted on your socials.

855
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: Email it be that forwarding email, uncle or Auntie. This

856
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: is good spam. This is the good stuff. Waging Nonviolence

857
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: dot org. There's another side I want you to check out,

858
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 1: Choose Democracy dot us. Go to that site, take the

859
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: pledge to defend democracy. Check out the action centers. Look

860
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: at a training, in particular a workshop called how to

861
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: defeat an election related power graph. This is part of

862
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: that preparation for things we don't want to see happen,

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00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 1: but let's be prepared. And lastly, a site called hold

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Speaker 1: the Line guide dot com. Now, I'm gonna be real.

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00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: This is a long documents fifty five pages. I don't

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00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: expect every listener to read every page, but check out

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Speaker 1: the site and check out this volunteer led effort to

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00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: prepare us for the situation that we're in right now.

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00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: They've got guys to setting up election protection efforts in

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00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 1: your community. They've got workshops on non violent resistance, and

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00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: they've got ways to get your elected officials, police and

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00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: military personnel to commit to upholding democracy. We do this together.

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00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: We cannot citizen alone. We cannot defend democracy alone. And

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00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: I also don't want anyone out there living totally in fear.

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00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: Prepare for things that we don't want to have happened,

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00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 1: but dream for the things we do want to see

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00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: unless invest in those dreams. As always, if you take

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00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: any of these actions, let us know action how to

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00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: citizen dot com throw it up on the socials under

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00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: the hashtag how to citizen and give us general feedback, ideas, suggestions,

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00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: comments at how to citizen dot com. You can find

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00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: me a Baritone day dot com on the socials at

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00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: barratuone day on Patreon at baritone Day, and you can

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00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 1: text me to go to eight and four eight A

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00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: four four. The texters get the first invites to the

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00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,439
Speaker 1: next live show tape, How to Citizen with barrattun Days

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00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio podcast executive produced by Miles Gray,

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00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: Nick Stump, Elizabeth Stewart and Baritune Day Thurston. Produced by

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00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: Joel Smith, Edited by Justin Smith. Powered by you