1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,196 --> 00:00:23,836 Speaker 2: The new year is a great time to take a 3 00:00:23,876 --> 00:00:25,876 Speaker 2: look at what's not serving you. And if I had 4 00:00:25,876 --> 00:00:28,276 Speaker 2: to pick one trait that's definitely not been serving me, 5 00:00:28,556 --> 00:00:31,876 Speaker 2: it's my perfectionism. I tend to beat myself up a lot. 6 00:00:32,156 --> 00:00:34,036 Speaker 2: I'm terrified to try things that I might not be 7 00:00:34,116 --> 00:00:36,596 Speaker 2: good at, and even small mess ups make me feel 8 00:00:36,636 --> 00:00:37,236 Speaker 2: like I'm sort of. 9 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:37,916 Speaker 1: A bad person. 10 00:00:38,356 --> 00:00:40,516 Speaker 2: So in this next episode of our how To season, 11 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:43,036 Speaker 2: I'm bringing you a timely guide for fighting that kind 12 00:00:43,076 --> 00:00:45,396 Speaker 2: of self criticism but what I like to call how 13 00:00:45,436 --> 00:00:47,956 Speaker 2: to feel like You're enough. And picking an expert for 14 00:00:47,996 --> 00:00:51,196 Speaker 2: this episode was easy. Doctor Ellen Hendrickson is a clinical 15 00:00:51,196 --> 00:00:55,316 Speaker 2: psychologist at Boston University's Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders. 16 00:00:55,676 --> 00:00:58,636 Speaker 2: Like me, Ellen is a recovering perfectionist. She's also the 17 00:00:58,676 --> 00:01:01,636 Speaker 2: author of a fabulous book that I strongly recommend. It's 18 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:04,876 Speaker 2: called How to Be Enough Self Acceptance for self critics 19 00:01:04,876 --> 00:01:05,876 Speaker 2: and perfectionists. 20 00:01:06,396 --> 00:01:10,116 Speaker 3: I mean, there's a saying for self help book authors, 21 00:01:10,156 --> 00:01:13,156 Speaker 3: and that is write the book you need. So I 22 00:01:13,236 --> 00:01:16,156 Speaker 3: partially wrote the book for me, but you know, certainly 23 00:01:16,196 --> 00:01:19,676 Speaker 3: there's also an external reason I wrote the book, which 24 00:01:19,716 --> 00:01:22,076 Speaker 3: is because I think there is sort of a silent 25 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:28,796 Speaker 3: epidemic of perfectionism happening. And I've noticed that perfectionism is 26 00:01:28,836 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 3: a bit of a misnomer. It's not about striving to 27 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:36,316 Speaker 3: be perfect. No one ever comes into the anxiety specialty 28 00:01:36,316 --> 00:01:39,996 Speaker 3: clinic where I work and says, Ellen, I strive for perfection. 29 00:01:40,316 --> 00:01:44,436 Speaker 3: I need help, I'm a perfectionist. Instead, people come in 30 00:01:44,836 --> 00:01:48,596 Speaker 3: and say, I feel like I'm always failing. I have 31 00:01:48,716 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 3: so much on my plate and I'm not doing anything well. 32 00:01:51,796 --> 00:01:54,716 Speaker 3: I'm falling behind. I should be so much further ahead 33 00:01:54,756 --> 00:01:57,076 Speaker 3: than where I am now in life, or they just 34 00:01:57,076 --> 00:02:00,956 Speaker 3: have sort of a sense of dissatisfaction with their lives. 35 00:02:01,236 --> 00:02:04,916 Speaker 3: So it's not about striving for perfection, it's about never 36 00:02:04,956 --> 00:02:06,276 Speaker 3: feeling good enough. 37 00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:08,356 Speaker 2: And was that the kind of thing that manifested in 38 00:02:08,356 --> 00:02:10,356 Speaker 2: your own life when you thought about perfectionism? 39 00:02:10,516 --> 00:02:13,556 Speaker 3: For sure? Yeah, I think well so. Ironically, before I 40 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 3: started writing the book, I burned out. I had been 41 00:02:16,916 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 3: grinding for so long that for me, burntout manifested mostly physically, 42 00:02:22,596 --> 00:02:26,036 Speaker 3: so I developed a gi illness. I woke up one 43 00:02:26,076 --> 00:02:28,276 Speaker 3: morning and I couldn't turn my head to the right. 44 00:02:28,476 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 3: My muscles were so tight. I blew out my forearm 45 00:02:31,116 --> 00:02:33,316 Speaker 3: from typing too much. So I've been through like five 46 00:02:33,356 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 3: rounds of physical therapy. So for me, it was mostly physical, 47 00:02:36,916 --> 00:02:41,036 Speaker 3: but it can absolutely manifest in terms of relationships. So 48 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:45,116 Speaker 3: luckily my marriage was fine, was okay. But I realized 49 00:02:45,116 --> 00:02:47,196 Speaker 3: that I again had been grinding for a long time 50 00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:49,196 Speaker 3: and looked up and realized I hadn't talked to a 51 00:02:49,196 --> 00:02:52,316 Speaker 3: lot of my friends for a long time. For other folks, again, 52 00:02:52,356 --> 00:02:55,316 Speaker 3: it can manifest more cognitively, more emotionally, that sense of 53 00:02:55,356 --> 00:03:00,756 Speaker 3: dissatisfaction with their lives or all those phrases I mentioned before. 54 00:03:01,236 --> 00:03:04,556 Speaker 3: But it definitely ground me to a halt, which apparently 55 00:03:04,996 --> 00:03:09,076 Speaker 3: is pretty common. For most folks. As they age, they mellow, 56 00:03:09,396 --> 00:03:13,156 Speaker 3: but for people with perfectionism, something else happens, and that's 57 00:03:13,156 --> 00:03:15,596 Speaker 3: the wheels start to come off, that we become less 58 00:03:15,596 --> 00:03:18,436 Speaker 3: diligent and start to burn out. And so I think 59 00:03:18,436 --> 00:03:21,596 Speaker 3: it's really common, especially at midlife or in mid career, 60 00:03:21,956 --> 00:03:24,036 Speaker 3: for all of this to come to a head. I 61 00:03:24,156 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 3: found one paper in my research writing the book. I'll 62 00:03:28,276 --> 00:03:32,116 Speaker 3: paraphrase the title, but it essentially said, perfectionist at twenty, 63 00:03:32,516 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 3: burnout at forty. 64 00:03:33,836 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 1: It's like you're speaking my language. 65 00:03:35,196 --> 00:03:37,716 Speaker 2: It's actually really I feel like I have never been 66 00:03:37,796 --> 00:03:41,116 Speaker 2: as kind of called out or felt that any were on. 67 00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:41,876 Speaker 3: The same journey. 68 00:03:42,036 --> 00:03:43,676 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm curious if you went through the same 69 00:03:43,716 --> 00:03:45,876 Speaker 2: thing I feel like I've gone through where kind of 70 00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:48,556 Speaker 2: the normal enjoyment I've had of things has sort of 71 00:03:48,636 --> 00:03:51,236 Speaker 2: changed over time, Like because of my perfectionism. 72 00:03:51,276 --> 00:03:52,756 Speaker 1: Is that something you experienced as well? 73 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:56,076 Speaker 3: It's confusing, right, Like it's everybody's favorite weakness in a 74 00:03:56,396 --> 00:03:58,476 Speaker 3: job interview, Oh, what's your biggest weakness? 75 00:03:58,516 --> 00:03:58,556 Speaker 2: On? 76 00:03:58,676 --> 00:04:03,196 Speaker 3: Such a perfectionist? And it absolutely can be good and 77 00:04:03,276 --> 00:04:06,276 Speaker 3: healthy and adaptive. There are some researchers who would disagree 78 00:04:06,276 --> 00:04:08,276 Speaker 3: with me on that, but there are some who'd absolutely 79 00:04:08,756 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 3: agree that there can be healthy perfectionism. And that is 80 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:17,276 Speaker 3: when it's grounded in striving for excellence. We do good 81 00:04:17,356 --> 00:04:21,356 Speaker 3: work for the work's sake. We have high standards, we 82 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:24,556 Speaker 3: care deeply. It all comes from a good place, you know. 83 00:04:24,836 --> 00:04:28,676 Speaker 3: In fact, the healthy heart of perfectionism is a personality 84 00:04:28,676 --> 00:04:33,076 Speaker 3: trait called conscientiousness. That is the least sexy superpower, you know, 85 00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:36,636 Speaker 3: like we fulfill our responsibilities in a single bound. But 86 00:04:37,356 --> 00:04:40,636 Speaker 3: it's been found to be, in terms of personality, the 87 00:04:40,636 --> 00:04:44,876 Speaker 3: biggest predictor for a good life so it predicts objective 88 00:04:45,556 --> 00:04:50,476 Speaker 3: quote unquote success like income, and subjective success like life satisfaction, 89 00:04:50,556 --> 00:04:54,436 Speaker 3: and appropriate to our conversation, happiness. So as far as 90 00:04:54,476 --> 00:04:57,356 Speaker 3: a personality trait, it's the one to pick. But it 91 00:04:57,396 --> 00:05:01,716 Speaker 3: can absolutely tip over into unhealthy perfectionism. I think of 92 00:05:01,716 --> 00:05:04,556 Speaker 3: perfectionism as sort of like one of those optical illusions 93 00:05:04,596 --> 00:05:06,276 Speaker 3: that if you look at it one way, you see 94 00:05:06,276 --> 00:05:08,316 Speaker 3: one thing and like the bunny or the duck, or 95 00:05:08,316 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 3: the young lady or the old lady. So if you 96 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:12,756 Speaker 3: look at it a different way, it can definitely tip 97 00:05:12,796 --> 00:05:17,636 Speaker 3: over into unhealthy perfectionism. And that's when instead of striving 98 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:21,236 Speaker 3: for excellence, instead of trying to do excellent work for 99 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:24,676 Speaker 3: the work's sake, we start to fall into something called 100 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:31,316 Speaker 3: over evaluation, which is when we conflate ourselves and our performance. 101 00:05:31,676 --> 00:05:35,196 Speaker 3: So we have to perform as superbly as possible to 102 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 3: be sufficient as a person. Forgive my grammar, but it's 103 00:05:38,036 --> 00:05:41,396 Speaker 3: when I did good equals I am good, And that's 104 00:05:41,436 --> 00:05:44,036 Speaker 3: the heart of unhealthy perfectionism. 105 00:05:44,316 --> 00:05:47,196 Speaker 2: It also seems like this unhealthy perfectionism is getting worse. 106 00:05:47,636 --> 00:05:49,476 Speaker 2: Our culture is kind of making it worse. Talk about 107 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:51,476 Speaker 2: some of the things that right now in the modern 108 00:05:51,556 --> 00:05:54,716 Speaker 2: day can make perfectionism in generally by overevaluation as well, 109 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:56,196 Speaker 2: kind of even more insidious. 110 00:05:56,236 --> 00:05:58,876 Speaker 3: Oh for sure. Yeah. No, I was actually really surprised 111 00:05:58,916 --> 00:06:01,516 Speaker 3: about this because I've always thought of perfectionism as sort 112 00:06:01,516 --> 00:06:03,956 Speaker 3: of a personality profile, like I think of, you know, 113 00:06:03,996 --> 00:06:07,116 Speaker 3: the Serena Williams and Steve Jobs and Hermione Grangers and 114 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:09,076 Speaker 3: Nile Cranes of the world. I thought it was something 115 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:12,076 Speaker 3: that we were, and it is. It comes from our genetics, 116 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:15,076 Speaker 3: it's charitable, it definitely comes from our families of origin. 117 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:18,916 Speaker 3: But every human reacts to the situations we're put in. 118 00:06:19,236 --> 00:06:22,956 Speaker 3: So when we're put into what the researcher doctor Andrew 119 00:06:22,996 --> 00:06:26,556 Speaker 3: Hill calls a perfectionistic climate, of course we're going to 120 00:06:26,676 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 3: react expecting others to be hard on us, being hard 121 00:06:30,516 --> 00:06:33,116 Speaker 3: on ourselves, maybe we're hard on others. So some of 122 00:06:33,156 --> 00:06:37,996 Speaker 3: the factors that feed into that are simply capitalism, consumerism, 123 00:06:38,196 --> 00:06:43,356 Speaker 3: advertising and social media definitely throws a match on that pile. 124 00:06:43,836 --> 00:06:47,316 Speaker 3: And so when we are in a culture that pushes 125 00:06:47,436 --> 00:06:51,356 Speaker 3: us to perform and consume to ever higher levels, of 126 00:06:51,476 --> 00:06:55,036 Speaker 3: course we're going to respond with perfectionism, with thinking we 127 00:06:55,156 --> 00:06:58,276 Speaker 3: have to again perform as superbly as possible to be 128 00:06:58,276 --> 00:06:59,276 Speaker 3: sufficient as a person. 129 00:06:59,596 --> 00:07:02,076 Speaker 2: And you've also argued that in the context of these cultures, 130 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:04,876 Speaker 2: we might want to think about perfectionism as a social problem. 131 00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:07,076 Speaker 3: What do you mean there, Yeah, I think when I 132 00:07:07,116 --> 00:07:09,996 Speaker 3: say social problem, we usually think of perfectionism as a 133 00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:15,196 Speaker 3: personal problem, and it's actually an interpersonal problem because when 134 00:07:16,196 --> 00:07:18,516 Speaker 3: I'll come back to the definition, I think thinking we 135 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 3: have to perform as superbly as possible to be sufficient 136 00:07:21,796 --> 00:07:23,956 Speaker 3: as a person, we also think we have to perform 137 00:07:24,316 --> 00:07:27,796 Speaker 3: as superbly as possible so people like us, so that 138 00:07:27,836 --> 00:07:30,676 Speaker 3: we are part of a group, so that we belong. 139 00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 3: It's fundamental to all of us as human beings to 140 00:07:34,036 --> 00:07:38,596 Speaker 3: need community and belonging. But perfectionism tells us a lie 141 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 3: and that we have to burn our way into that 142 00:07:42,436 --> 00:07:43,596 Speaker 3: by doing things well. 143 00:07:44,236 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 2: So, as you talk about it now, perfectionism seems really bad, 144 00:07:46,916 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 2: But your book claims that there's a way that we 145 00:07:48,476 --> 00:07:51,996 Speaker 2: can be conscientious about our performance without all the dark sides. 146 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:54,116 Speaker 1: What is adaptive perfectionism. 147 00:07:54,476 --> 00:07:58,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, Adaptive perfectionism is when we strive for excellence, we 148 00:07:59,076 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 3: do the work for the work's sake, we keep our 149 00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:07,556 Speaker 3: high standards. I think that imperfection is having a moment 150 00:08:07,916 --> 00:08:12,316 Speaker 3: in the zeitgeist culture, and that's awesome, that's amazing. However, 151 00:08:12,676 --> 00:08:14,636 Speaker 3: I think that some of the advice that has come 152 00:08:14,636 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 3: out of that is a little bit misguided. So I 153 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:21,076 Speaker 3: have definitely been told Ellen, you need to stop when 154 00:08:21,116 --> 00:08:24,996 Speaker 3: things are good enough, or you need to lower your standards, 155 00:08:25,316 --> 00:08:28,676 Speaker 3: and that goes off with me and with anyone else 156 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:31,676 Speaker 3: who's familiar with perfectionism about as well as telling us 157 00:08:31,716 --> 00:08:35,036 Speaker 3: to pull out our toenails, because if we are sort 158 00:08:35,076 --> 00:08:38,396 Speaker 3: of overidentified with our work or our performance, we can 159 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:41,796 Speaker 3: over identify with anything with our reflection in the mirror, 160 00:08:41,876 --> 00:08:44,636 Speaker 3: the number on the scale, you know, whether we stuck 161 00:08:44,676 --> 00:08:49,076 Speaker 3: to our healthy eating plan that day, our social behavior, 162 00:08:49,076 --> 00:08:52,676 Speaker 3: our parenting. But if this is something that we're sort 163 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 3: of overidentified with, telling us to settle for mediocre or 164 00:08:56,116 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 3: subpar performance tells us that we're mediocre or subpar. So 165 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:05,356 Speaker 3: what I like to do is to try to work 166 00:09:05,396 --> 00:09:09,916 Speaker 3: with clients and certainly within myself, to not evaluate my 167 00:09:09,996 --> 00:09:13,196 Speaker 3: performance so much as all or nothing, which is definitely 168 00:09:13,236 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 3: one of the things that we do in perfectionism, but 169 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:19,076 Speaker 3: instead try to evaluate it as both. And I'll tell 170 00:09:19,116 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 3: you a story to illustrate so I had a client 171 00:09:22,556 --> 00:09:25,836 Speaker 3: that will call Julie. She was a pediatrician and was 172 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:28,116 Speaker 3: a very good one by all reports. She'd been doing 173 00:09:28,196 --> 00:09:30,676 Speaker 3: this for twenty five years. One day she came into 174 00:09:30,916 --> 00:09:34,836 Speaker 3: session and was just like lamp basting herself because she 175 00:09:35,076 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 3: had misdiagnosed a patient that week. So, a little girl 176 00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 3: had come in with abdominal pain and Julie had sent 177 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:44,596 Speaker 3: the family home saying it was constipation. Turned out to 178 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:46,636 Speaker 3: be appendicitis. The little girl ended up going to the 179 00:09:46,636 --> 00:09:49,676 Speaker 3: emergency room. She was fine, but Julie came into session 180 00:09:49,716 --> 00:09:52,796 Speaker 3: and was saying things like I am a bad doctor. 181 00:09:53,116 --> 00:09:55,476 Speaker 3: Maybe I should retire now and get out before I 182 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:58,436 Speaker 3: hurt someone. She was really really hard on herself, and 183 00:09:58,476 --> 00:10:01,276 Speaker 3: what she was doing is when we evaluate ourselves as 184 00:10:01,276 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 3: all or nothing, one mistake shunts us from all I'm 185 00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:08,596 Speaker 3: a good doctor to nothing, I'm a bad doctor. And 186 00:10:08,676 --> 00:10:11,516 Speaker 3: so what we tried to do was, rather than have 187 00:10:11,676 --> 00:10:17,316 Speaker 3: her set the bar for adequate at flawless, no mistakes, 188 00:10:17,356 --> 00:10:21,076 Speaker 3: no misdiagnoses, ever, and if you ever stumble or struggle 189 00:10:21,236 --> 00:10:24,356 Speaker 3: or make a mistake, that shuns us into nothing, to 190 00:10:24,956 --> 00:10:28,036 Speaker 3: think about it as I'm a good doctor who sometimes 191 00:10:28,036 --> 00:10:30,276 Speaker 3: makes a misdiagnosis, and we can do this in any 192 00:10:30,316 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 3: area of life. I'm a good student who sometimes fails 193 00:10:33,916 --> 00:10:37,676 Speaker 3: a test. I am a diligent person who sometimes throws 194 00:10:37,716 --> 00:10:40,876 Speaker 3: in the towel. I'm a healthy person who sometimes eats 195 00:10:40,916 --> 00:10:43,436 Speaker 3: a jar of marshmallow fluff. We can do this and 196 00:10:43,556 --> 00:10:47,636 Speaker 3: retain our sense of ourselves as good people and create 197 00:10:47,716 --> 00:10:51,916 Speaker 3: some much needed wiggle room for the inevitable mistakes and 198 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:54,316 Speaker 3: duers of life, because we are human. 199 00:10:55,276 --> 00:10:57,116 Speaker 2: If you listen to the first episode in this how 200 00:10:57,156 --> 00:10:59,596 Speaker 2: Too series, you know the season is all about finding 201 00:10:59,676 --> 00:11:01,956 Speaker 2: practical tips for handling life's problems. 202 00:11:02,316 --> 00:11:03,116 Speaker 1: So when we get back. 203 00:11:02,996 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 2: From the break, we'll hear Ellen's first hack for taming 204 00:11:05,996 --> 00:11:09,436 Speaker 2: our perfectionist tendencies. The Happiness Lab will be right back. 205 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:17,796 Speaker 2: Doctor Ellen Hendrickson supports a whole host of struggling perfectionists 206 00:11:17,876 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 2: who visit her clinic, but she's also working to heal herself. 207 00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:24,116 Speaker 2: As a recovering perfectionist, Ellen has found that the first 208 00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:27,156 Speaker 2: step to fighting self criticism is to examine her harsh 209 00:11:27,196 --> 00:11:28,156 Speaker 2: inner monologue. 210 00:11:28,316 --> 00:11:32,836 Speaker 3: We focus on flaws and details, so we are the 211 00:11:32,876 --> 00:11:35,236 Speaker 3: ones to see the crumbs on the otherwise clean counter 212 00:11:35,356 --> 00:11:38,356 Speaker 3: that nobody else sees. We scan the audience and we 213 00:11:38,396 --> 00:11:41,596 Speaker 3: find the one frowning face in the sea of smiles, 214 00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:44,356 Speaker 3: then we self criticize. You know, if we look for it, 215 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:46,396 Speaker 3: we'll find it. So if we look for the mistake, 216 00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:48,276 Speaker 3: or we look for the flaw, and we take that 217 00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:52,556 Speaker 3: really personally because of overevaluation, then the self criticism manifests 218 00:11:52,836 --> 00:11:57,676 Speaker 3: as harsh and personal. So it could be over name calling, 219 00:11:57,836 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 3: like oh, I'm such an idiot, Oh how could I 220 00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:03,916 Speaker 3: be so stupid? It could be rhetorical questions why can't 221 00:12:03,956 --> 00:12:06,116 Speaker 3: I do this? Oh my gosh, why did I say 222 00:12:06,156 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 3: it that way? Or it could not even really be 223 00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:11,116 Speaker 3: conscious words at all. It could just be sort of 224 00:12:11,116 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 3: this underlying rumbling of dissatisfaction or never feeling right about 225 00:12:17,236 --> 00:12:19,956 Speaker 3: our lives. Harsh and personal. 226 00:12:20,156 --> 00:12:22,036 Speaker 2: So why are we so self critical? It seems like 227 00:12:22,076 --> 00:12:24,876 Speaker 2: we're not like terribly masochistic. It seems like we have 228 00:12:24,956 --> 00:12:26,476 Speaker 2: this theory that it seems to work. 229 00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, so we can be self critical for lots 230 00:12:31,156 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 3: and lots of reasons. It all boils down to we 231 00:12:33,556 --> 00:12:37,716 Speaker 3: think it works. We think that if we criticize ourselves harshly, 232 00:12:38,116 --> 00:12:41,716 Speaker 3: that we might never make that mistake again. Or we 233 00:12:41,796 --> 00:12:48,236 Speaker 3: might criticize ourselves before others can remember perfectionism is interpersonal, 234 00:12:48,476 --> 00:12:52,556 Speaker 3: so ironically we might criticize ourselves to be beyond reproach. 235 00:12:53,276 --> 00:12:56,876 Speaker 3: And in the book, there's a runner in China who 236 00:12:56,876 --> 00:13:00,436 Speaker 3: goes by the name of Uncle Chen, and he went 237 00:13:00,516 --> 00:13:03,316 Speaker 3: viral a few years ago for running a series of 238 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:07,716 Speaker 3: marathons while chain smoking, and he says that having something 239 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 3: in his mouth helps him and that it gives him energy, 240 00:13:12,956 --> 00:13:16,276 Speaker 3: So that might be true. He does pretty well too, 241 00:13:16,396 --> 00:13:19,116 Speaker 3: like he might run sub three thirty marathons because he's 242 00:13:19,156 --> 00:13:23,116 Speaker 3: chain smoking. But I would hazard to guess that the 243 00:13:23,156 --> 00:13:27,036 Speaker 3: cigarettes are stealing the credit for his good performance, his 244 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:29,516 Speaker 3: hard work, his training. And I think the same thing 245 00:13:29,516 --> 00:13:33,356 Speaker 3: happens with self criticism, that it steals the credit for 246 00:13:34,156 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 3: everything else we do so well setting those high standards, 247 00:13:37,636 --> 00:13:41,756 Speaker 3: caring deeply about people being diligent, and that it brings 248 00:13:41,836 --> 00:13:44,156 Speaker 3: up a lot of emotion when we think about letting 249 00:13:44,196 --> 00:13:47,516 Speaker 3: it go or letting it be, because we worry what 250 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:48,916 Speaker 3: will happen without it. 251 00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:51,516 Speaker 1: It's taken that credit, But what does the data really show? 252 00:13:51,716 --> 00:13:53,756 Speaker 1: Do we need that self criticism to do well? 253 00:13:54,156 --> 00:13:57,556 Speaker 3: Well? So ironically it shows that we do better without it. 254 00:13:57,836 --> 00:14:03,436 Speaker 3: The difference between for example, like healthy exercise and perfectionistic 255 00:14:03,636 --> 00:14:06,676 Speaker 3: exercise where we get a little obsessive might exercise even 256 00:14:06,676 --> 00:14:09,236 Speaker 3: if we're exhausted or injured. The difference between the those 257 00:14:09,276 --> 00:14:12,876 Speaker 3: two things is self criticism. So it really is the 258 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:17,396 Speaker 3: thing again that steals the credit and ironically lowers our 259 00:14:17,436 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 3: performance as opposed to letting us reach our full potential. 260 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:22,596 Speaker 2: So that's tip number one. We need to figure out 261 00:14:22,596 --> 00:14:25,156 Speaker 2: ways to quit the self criticism. But how do we 262 00:14:25,196 --> 00:14:27,156 Speaker 2: do that? I have two tips for you. 263 00:14:27,276 --> 00:14:31,676 Speaker 3: Okay. I learned to exercise self compassion to talk to 264 00:14:31,716 --> 00:14:36,356 Speaker 3: myself like a good friend, okay, which absolutely might work 265 00:14:36,396 --> 00:14:38,756 Speaker 3: for a lot of people, but I think for a 266 00:14:38,796 --> 00:14:42,596 Speaker 3: perfectionistic brain that means we think we have to come 267 00:14:42,716 --> 00:14:48,676 Speaker 3: up with fully formed, effective paragraphs of like self compassionate 268 00:14:48,756 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 3: hype and talk to ourselves like a self compassion speech writer. 269 00:14:51,956 --> 00:14:54,436 Speaker 3: And certainly that's a high bar. You know, I can't 270 00:14:54,516 --> 00:14:58,316 Speaker 3: do that. And so for folks that resonate with perfectionism, 271 00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 3: I'd like to say that, yes, self compassion can definitely 272 00:15:00,916 --> 00:15:05,756 Speaker 3: be words, but it can also be much simpler words. 273 00:15:05,796 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 3: It could be one word like easy, or it's okay 274 00:15:11,396 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 3: or kindness. But more than that, I think because those 275 00:15:15,436 --> 00:15:18,716 Speaker 3: fundamentally talking to ourselves is thoughts, right, and we can't 276 00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:22,916 Speaker 3: control our thoughts, So for example, like don't think about 277 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:25,996 Speaker 3: a cheeseburger floating above my head. You know, we can't 278 00:15:25,996 --> 00:15:29,956 Speaker 3: control our thoughts, but what we can control is our actions. 279 00:15:30,476 --> 00:15:33,276 Speaker 3: So even if we're talking to ourselves in a self 280 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:37,916 Speaker 3: critical way, we can treat ourselves in a self compassionate way. 281 00:15:38,276 --> 00:15:41,476 Speaker 3: That might mean giving ourselves time to drink our coffee 282 00:15:41,516 --> 00:15:43,836 Speaker 3: in the morning. It could be taking a few extra 283 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 3: minutes to stand under the warm spray of the shower 284 00:15:47,356 --> 00:15:50,516 Speaker 3: on a cold morning. It could be going to the 285 00:15:50,596 --> 00:15:52,996 Speaker 3: gym because we know from experience that that makes us 286 00:15:52,996 --> 00:15:56,036 Speaker 3: feel better. Or and I think this is really important, 287 00:15:56,196 --> 00:15:59,156 Speaker 3: it might mean skipping the gym because that's not what 288 00:15:59,196 --> 00:16:01,316 Speaker 3: we need right now, and that would make us either 289 00:16:01,396 --> 00:16:05,156 Speaker 3: more exhausted or crunch our schedule even more. For folks 290 00:16:05,236 --> 00:16:09,556 Speaker 3: with some perfectionism, I think the biggest self compassionate act 291 00:16:09,796 --> 00:16:14,396 Speaker 3: can be giving ourselves permission not to do all that 292 00:16:14,436 --> 00:16:16,876 Speaker 3: we expect of ourselves. And there we don't have to 293 00:16:16,956 --> 00:16:18,116 Speaker 3: change anything, right. 294 00:16:17,996 --> 00:16:20,796 Speaker 2: Beautiful man, you can just kind of takes some stuff 295 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:24,236 Speaker 2: off our mental plate. Yeah, actually exact jimate plate. Right. 296 00:16:24,316 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 2: You also recommend that other strategies that can kind of 297 00:16:27,156 --> 00:16:29,836 Speaker 2: help us move these kind of nasty thoughts around. And 298 00:16:29,876 --> 00:16:31,396 Speaker 2: one of the ones you suggest in the book that 299 00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:33,876 Speaker 2: I love is this idea of cognitive diffusion. What is 300 00:16:33,916 --> 00:16:36,556 Speaker 2: that and what are some strategies we can use to Yeah? No, 301 00:16:36,676 --> 00:16:38,276 Speaker 2: I love cognitive diffusion. 302 00:16:38,316 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 3: So this comes from an orientation of therapy called acceptance 303 00:16:41,436 --> 00:16:44,236 Speaker 3: and Commitment therapy or ACT, and this was developed by 304 00:16:44,396 --> 00:16:46,556 Speaker 3: Steve hay doctor Steve Hayes back in the eighties and 305 00:16:46,916 --> 00:16:52,516 Speaker 3: colleagues and in a Nutshelle. Traditional cognitive behavioral therapy tells 306 00:16:52,596 --> 00:16:56,596 Speaker 3: us to change our thoughts and our actions in order 307 00:16:56,636 --> 00:17:01,196 Speaker 3: to affect how we feel. ACT tells us to change 308 00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:05,356 Speaker 3: our relationship to our thoughts and emotions that allows us 309 00:17:05,356 --> 00:17:09,316 Speaker 3: to move forward into values based action. Okay, So an 310 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 3: example of cognitive diffusions is simply putting some space between 311 00:17:13,676 --> 00:17:18,036 Speaker 3: us and our thought and realizing, oh, this is a thought, 312 00:17:18,676 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 3: this is something that is coming from you know, my 313 00:17:22,556 --> 00:17:26,276 Speaker 3: own mind. It is not truth, it is not what's 314 00:17:26,316 --> 00:17:30,076 Speaker 3: going to happen. And so, you know, as conscientious people, 315 00:17:30,716 --> 00:17:34,556 Speaker 3: we take things quite seriously, and that includes our own 316 00:17:34,716 --> 00:17:36,876 Speaker 3: thoughts and emotions. So you know, if we think like, 317 00:17:36,956 --> 00:17:39,436 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, that was so stupid, we often take 318 00:17:39,476 --> 00:17:45,116 Speaker 3: that thought really seriously. And so cognitive diffusion defuses that power, 319 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:48,756 Speaker 3: and it gives us some space and some perspective to 320 00:17:48,796 --> 00:17:51,796 Speaker 3: look at our thoughts with some distance, okay, And to 321 00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:55,876 Speaker 3: do that, we can play with the thoughts. So often 322 00:17:55,956 --> 00:17:58,196 Speaker 3: our self critical thoughts kind of just like come at 323 00:17:58,316 --> 00:18:01,756 Speaker 3: us and you know, smack us out of nowhere, and 324 00:18:01,796 --> 00:18:04,356 Speaker 3: that puts us in a very low power position. So 325 00:18:04,836 --> 00:18:08,396 Speaker 3: what we can do is without making the thoughts go away, 326 00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:12,076 Speaker 3: we can to them and play with them. So, for instance, 327 00:18:12,276 --> 00:18:15,716 Speaker 3: I had a client whose thought was I'm gonna let 328 00:18:15,716 --> 00:18:18,836 Speaker 3: everyone down, and she decided to play with this thought 329 00:18:18,996 --> 00:18:21,876 Speaker 3: by picturing it on a coffee mug, and she would 330 00:18:21,956 --> 00:18:24,396 Speaker 3: metaphorically take a little sip from this mug whenever she 331 00:18:24,716 --> 00:18:27,476 Speaker 3: thought that thought. She would also sing it to herself, 332 00:18:27,516 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 3: like while she was washing dishes or otherwise alone. We 333 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:34,876 Speaker 3: can picture our thoughts skywritten behind a plane. We can 334 00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:38,236 Speaker 3: picture it as the Star Wars font, you know, like 335 00:18:38,276 --> 00:18:42,596 Speaker 3: doing the crawl. Yes, exaggerate exactly, And so our thoughts 336 00:18:42,596 --> 00:18:44,316 Speaker 3: could be words, so we can you know, we could 337 00:18:44,316 --> 00:18:46,716 Speaker 3: picture it embroidered on a pillow, et cetera. But our 338 00:18:46,756 --> 00:18:50,236 Speaker 3: thoughts also might be like a movie in our mind 339 00:18:50,356 --> 00:18:53,436 Speaker 3: or an image. It could be an image of our 340 00:18:53,796 --> 00:18:56,556 Speaker 3: boss bargaining into our office and firing us. And what 341 00:18:56,596 --> 00:18:58,236 Speaker 3: we can do there is we can We can also 342 00:18:58,276 --> 00:19:00,836 Speaker 3: play with that thought. We could put a clown nose 343 00:19:01,036 --> 00:19:04,276 Speaker 3: on our boss. We could add a seventies soundtrack. We 344 00:19:04,276 --> 00:19:06,836 Speaker 3: could have balloons come down from the ceiling. The thought 345 00:19:06,876 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 3: itself doesn't go away, it's still there, but we are 346 00:19:11,276 --> 00:19:15,676 Speaker 3: now exerting some power over it to emphasize that this 347 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 3: is a thought, it's not actually what's happening to us 348 00:19:18,956 --> 00:19:19,396 Speaker 3: right now. 349 00:19:19,916 --> 00:19:22,676 Speaker 2: I love the strategy so much because sometimes in you 350 00:19:22,756 --> 00:19:25,076 Speaker 2: know these CBT circles where it's like, well, just control 351 00:19:25,116 --> 00:19:25,476 Speaker 2: your thoughts. 352 00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:27,076 Speaker 3: Like, my thoughts are really strong. 353 00:19:27,116 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 1: I don't know about the people's thoughts but mine. 354 00:19:28,956 --> 00:19:30,796 Speaker 2: So the idea of like you allow the thought, but 355 00:19:30,876 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 2: you just make it a little kooky, looking a little stupid, 356 00:19:33,836 --> 00:19:37,396 Speaker 2: It could be a really powerful strategy for recognizing like, oh, 357 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:39,476 Speaker 2: these things don't have as much hold over me as 358 00:19:39,516 --> 00:19:39,796 Speaker 2: I thought. 359 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:42,916 Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, Okay, here I'll tell you another story. So, 360 00:19:43,236 --> 00:19:47,116 Speaker 3: when I was promoting my first book. I was lucky 361 00:19:47,196 --> 00:19:51,036 Speaker 3: enough to be on another national podcast, took the train 362 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:55,556 Speaker 3: down to New York, recorded in a studio, and made 363 00:19:55,796 --> 00:19:59,236 Speaker 3: a reasonable number of mistakes, like said a few things. 364 00:19:59,236 --> 00:20:00,596 Speaker 3: I was like, ah, that didn't come off the way 365 00:20:00,636 --> 00:20:05,516 Speaker 3: I wanted it to. But my brain, because it's my brain. Afterwards, 366 00:20:05,876 --> 00:20:08,516 Speaker 3: you know, it started going like my you know, are 367 00:20:08,716 --> 00:20:10,996 Speaker 3: are hard, are designed to beat our sweat glands are 368 00:20:10,996 --> 00:20:14,276 Speaker 3: designed to perspire. A self critical brain is going to 369 00:20:14,276 --> 00:20:17,076 Speaker 3: make self critical thoughts, and so it just started up 370 00:20:17,156 --> 00:20:19,316 Speaker 3: and it said, ah, why did you say it that way? 371 00:20:19,836 --> 00:20:22,636 Speaker 3: You missed that opportunity. This was not good. 372 00:20:22,836 --> 00:20:23,196 Speaker 1: Okay. 373 00:20:23,796 --> 00:20:26,716 Speaker 3: At the time, I really believed it, to the point 374 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:30,076 Speaker 3: where my poor editor who came with me had to 375 00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:31,916 Speaker 3: steer me into the nearest bar and buy me a 376 00:20:31,996 --> 00:20:36,596 Speaker 3: Gin and tonic. But since then I have learned that 377 00:20:36,596 --> 00:20:39,716 Speaker 3: that's just what happens after my brain does anything with 378 00:20:39,756 --> 00:20:44,116 Speaker 3: a microphone. And so honestly, after I leave here recording 379 00:20:44,476 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 3: us together, probably my brain will do the same thing. 380 00:20:47,036 --> 00:20:49,956 Speaker 3: It'll say, oh, I totally forgot that point. That was 381 00:20:49,996 --> 00:20:52,196 Speaker 3: so dumb, or oh my goodness, why did I phrase 382 00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:56,036 Speaker 3: it that way? This was not good. But thankfully I've 383 00:20:56,076 --> 00:20:59,156 Speaker 3: learned that I can attend to my thoughts sort of 384 00:20:59,276 --> 00:21:01,796 Speaker 3: like I would attend to the music at a coffee shop, 385 00:21:02,356 --> 00:21:05,556 Speaker 3: or like the musaic at a grocery store. It's still there. 386 00:21:05,956 --> 00:21:08,916 Speaker 3: I can hear it in the background. I don't have 387 00:21:08,956 --> 00:21:12,516 Speaker 3: to listen to it, like I'm not dancing along. So again, 388 00:21:12,556 --> 00:21:16,116 Speaker 3: it's there, but it's not the truth. It's just what happens. 389 00:21:16,156 --> 00:21:18,756 Speaker 3: It's just how my brain is wired, and of course 390 00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:20,956 Speaker 3: that's what's going to happen. But I don't have to 391 00:21:21,036 --> 00:21:22,156 Speaker 3: let it yank me around. 392 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:24,916 Speaker 2: Maybe safer and cheaper than the Gin and Tonics after 393 00:21:25,036 --> 00:21:25,436 Speaker 2: its right. 394 00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:27,516 Speaker 1: So that's tip number one. 395 00:21:27,516 --> 00:21:30,276 Speaker 2: We need to fight our self critical voices or allow 396 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:34,636 Speaker 2: them in kookiar ways. Tip number two is one that's harder, 397 00:21:34,956 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 2: especially for me. We need to find ways to overcome 398 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:41,476 Speaker 2: over evaluation, which we talked about a little bit before, 399 00:21:41,796 --> 00:21:44,716 Speaker 2: this idea that I am what I do, And this 400 00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:47,356 Speaker 2: is something that you've struggled with as well. I'm talking 401 00:21:47,356 --> 00:21:49,476 Speaker 2: about some examples of your own over evaluation. 402 00:21:49,836 --> 00:21:51,836 Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I mean I wrote a whole book about 403 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:55,356 Speaker 3: my own social anxiety, and so that is over evaluating 404 00:21:55,396 --> 00:21:58,676 Speaker 3: my social performance that if I didn't do things correctly, 405 00:21:58,796 --> 00:22:01,836 Speaker 3: or if I said something wrong, I would take that personally. 406 00:22:02,196 --> 00:22:05,596 Speaker 3: So the heart of social anxiety is perfectionism. 407 00:22:05,836 --> 00:22:08,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like for me, my over evaluation is honestly, 408 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:12,836 Speaker 2: whatever situation I find myself in, I overevaluate based on 409 00:22:12,876 --> 00:22:15,876 Speaker 2: my podcast performance, based on what my finances look like, 410 00:22:15,956 --> 00:22:17,796 Speaker 2: based on being a good wife, based on being a 411 00:22:17,836 --> 00:22:20,516 Speaker 2: good teacher. It just like comes up in all these domains. 412 00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:24,596 Speaker 2: And so my big question is how do we fight this? 413 00:22:25,036 --> 00:22:27,236 Speaker 3: That is the sixty four thousand dollars question. Those of 414 00:22:27,316 --> 00:22:34,236 Speaker 3: us with perfectionism often orient towards rules, and uncertainty drives anxiety. 415 00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:41,476 Speaker 3: Rules reduce uncertainty. Therefore rules reduce anxiety, and with over evaluation, 416 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:45,996 Speaker 3: if we are doing things correctly, therefore we are correct. 417 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:51,116 Speaker 3: So those of us with some perfectionism orient towards rules. 418 00:22:51,116 --> 00:22:52,836 Speaker 3: We kind of get the lay of the land and 419 00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:54,476 Speaker 3: try to for what are the rules so I can 420 00:22:54,516 --> 00:22:57,716 Speaker 3: follow them? Or if there are no rules, we make 421 00:22:57,796 --> 00:22:59,716 Speaker 3: up our own rules and then we follow those. So, 422 00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:02,036 Speaker 3: you know, if you've ever kind of created an exercise 423 00:23:02,076 --> 00:23:03,996 Speaker 3: program for yourself, or you've had to tackle a big 424 00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:06,476 Speaker 3: project and you've written out some kind of schedule, and 425 00:23:06,516 --> 00:23:09,796 Speaker 3: that's not bad. Please keep doing that. That absolutely is 426 00:23:10,076 --> 00:23:13,676 Speaker 3: very useful. But I think the problem arises when we 427 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:17,236 Speaker 3: stick to those rules very rigidly, or when we follow 428 00:23:17,276 --> 00:23:20,356 Speaker 3: a rule sort of mindlessly that we are following sort 429 00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:23,996 Speaker 3: of someone else's generic idea of the right. 430 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:26,796 Speaker 2: Thing or some other thing that we've invented that may 431 00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:28,476 Speaker 2: or may not be the right thing. I feel like 432 00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 2: I do this all the time, right. I was just 433 00:23:30,796 --> 00:23:33,076 Speaker 2: I just get invited to a friend's dinner party, and 434 00:23:33,276 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 2: you know, I'm thinking, like I should bring something, But 435 00:23:35,556 --> 00:23:37,436 Speaker 2: in my head it turns not just into I should 436 00:23:37,436 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 2: bring a bottle blind. 437 00:23:38,196 --> 00:23:38,836 Speaker 3: It's like, oh, I. 438 00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:40,556 Speaker 2: Should make a pie, and I should make a pie 439 00:23:40,596 --> 00:23:42,636 Speaker 2: with fresh blueberries, and oh my gosh, I can't just 440 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:44,276 Speaker 2: like get a store pie cross. 441 00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:46,036 Speaker 1: I need to make it. And it's like, wait, where 442 00:23:46,076 --> 00:23:46,556 Speaker 1: did this rule? 443 00:23:46,716 --> 00:23:48,676 Speaker 2: There's no like dinner party rule that says I have 444 00:23:48,716 --> 00:23:50,316 Speaker 2: to put all this work in to do it in 445 00:23:50,356 --> 00:23:54,036 Speaker 2: this incredibly onerous way. But somehow my brain latches onto 446 00:23:54,076 --> 00:23:56,756 Speaker 2: this that like my status as a friend and a 447 00:23:56,756 --> 00:24:00,036 Speaker 2: dinner party guest kind of won't be evaluated positively unless 448 00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:01,636 Speaker 2: I like go really out of my way to do 449 00:24:01,676 --> 00:24:04,556 Speaker 2: this incredibly over the top dessert for sure. Yeah. 450 00:24:04,676 --> 00:24:06,516 Speaker 3: No, as you were talking, I was nodding and nodding 451 00:24:06,556 --> 00:24:10,476 Speaker 3: and nodding. And I think that's because we set personally 452 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 3: demanding rules and standards for ourselves, because it's a way 453 00:24:14,556 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 3: to measure ourselves. So if we are doing hard things correctly, 454 00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:22,676 Speaker 3: especially like that's a referendum on us, that means that 455 00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 3: we know are good enough. Essentially, So what we can 456 00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:31,956 Speaker 3: do there is try to turn from simply following the 457 00:24:32,036 --> 00:24:37,196 Speaker 3: rules to following our values. And I think values is 458 00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:40,076 Speaker 3: another one of those words that sort of means everything 459 00:24:40,076 --> 00:24:42,836 Speaker 3: and nothing at the same time these days, So I'll 460 00:24:42,876 --> 00:24:46,076 Speaker 3: just define that. So a value is anything that we 461 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:50,516 Speaker 3: find important, meaningful, purposeful. It can really be anything. It 462 00:24:50,516 --> 00:24:53,836 Speaker 3: can be a concept like equality or hard work. It 463 00:24:53,836 --> 00:24:56,436 Speaker 3: can be things like books or the theater. It can 464 00:24:56,476 --> 00:25:00,516 Speaker 3: be activities like running, being outdoors, relationships like connecting with 465 00:25:00,556 --> 00:25:03,876 Speaker 3: your kids, being a loving partner, practices like your faith. 466 00:25:03,956 --> 00:25:08,036 Speaker 3: So literally anything can be a value, okay, And there 467 00:25:08,116 --> 00:25:11,196 Speaker 3: are four qualities that are particularly important. This is the 468 00:25:11,236 --> 00:25:14,596 Speaker 3: work of doctor Michael Touhigg and doctor Clarisong. And so 469 00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:19,556 Speaker 3: they say that values are continuous, so you're never done 470 00:25:20,276 --> 00:25:24,396 Speaker 3: living a value. So They're different than goals because a 471 00:25:24,436 --> 00:25:27,196 Speaker 3: goal can be checked off on a list. So, for instance, 472 00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:30,996 Speaker 3: like coming to Boston is a goal, whereas going east 473 00:25:31,516 --> 00:25:33,556 Speaker 3: is a value. You can always go more east. You 474 00:25:33,556 --> 00:25:35,636 Speaker 3: can always live your values, So that's one. 475 00:25:35,876 --> 00:25:36,116 Speaker 1: Two. 476 00:25:36,756 --> 00:25:40,916 Speaker 3: Values are intrinsically meaningful, so you'd care about it even 477 00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:44,636 Speaker 3: if nobody else knew. So like getting famous isn't a value. 478 00:25:45,156 --> 00:25:48,756 Speaker 3: Your values are under your control, so they're not contingent 479 00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:52,476 Speaker 3: upon anyone else, Like being respected or being loved. You 480 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:56,476 Speaker 3: can value being respectful, you can control that or being loving, 481 00:25:56,756 --> 00:26:00,036 Speaker 3: but not contingent upon other people. And then finally, for 482 00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:02,196 Speaker 3: your values, and this is the most important, I think 483 00:26:02,236 --> 00:26:06,756 Speaker 3: are freely chosen. So values are never coercive or obligatory, 484 00:26:06,836 --> 00:26:09,156 Speaker 3: so you freely choose to follow them, you know, and 485 00:26:09,196 --> 00:26:12,716 Speaker 3: you're likely willing to tolerate some discomfort in order to 486 00:26:12,756 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 3: do so. You're willing to sacrifice your Saturday morning to 487 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:18,476 Speaker 3: go pick up trash on the beach, you know, if 488 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:21,996 Speaker 3: like sustainability or the environment is your value. So that's 489 00:26:21,996 --> 00:26:23,996 Speaker 3: a very long way of saying we can start to 490 00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:28,436 Speaker 3: turn away from did I follow the rule? To am 491 00:26:28,476 --> 00:26:31,236 Speaker 3: I being the person I want to be? Am I 492 00:26:31,396 --> 00:26:35,556 Speaker 3: living the life I want to live by following our values. 493 00:26:35,716 --> 00:26:41,116 Speaker 3: Now that's simple but not easy, and we often, especially 494 00:26:41,156 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 3: in perfectionism, start to try to follow our values as rules. So, 495 00:26:46,796 --> 00:26:50,636 Speaker 3: for example, I had a client who said, quote, through 496 00:26:50,636 --> 00:26:52,996 Speaker 3: a combination of God and my mother, I was taught 497 00:26:53,036 --> 00:26:56,396 Speaker 3: to be generous, but for her it was functioning as 498 00:26:56,436 --> 00:26:58,996 Speaker 3: a rule. She said, if a homeless person asked you 499 00:26:59,076 --> 00:27:02,396 Speaker 3: for a dollar, if somebody asked you to babysit, you 500 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:06,076 Speaker 3: had to do it, which is the exact opposite of 501 00:27:06,116 --> 00:27:09,036 Speaker 3: the spirit of generosity. It was functioning as a rule, 502 00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:12,036 Speaker 3: as opposed to a freely chosen value. 503 00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:13,716 Speaker 2: One of the strategies that came up in the book 504 00:27:13,796 --> 00:27:16,916 Speaker 2: is just like, maybe even just noticing that distinction. This 505 00:27:16,996 --> 00:27:19,596 Speaker 2: feels really like And that's kind of with the dinner 506 00:27:19,636 --> 00:27:21,796 Speaker 2: party situation. I kind of had that where I was like, 507 00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:23,396 Speaker 2: this is starting to feel like I have to and 508 00:27:23,436 --> 00:27:25,916 Speaker 2: that's already a signal that maybe I should ease up. 509 00:27:26,196 --> 00:27:29,476 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think the first step is simply noticing 510 00:27:29,716 --> 00:27:33,396 Speaker 3: that we feel coerced or obliged. You mentioned that I 511 00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:35,676 Speaker 3: have to or I should, you know, make a pie, 512 00:27:35,796 --> 00:27:38,596 Speaker 3: now I should make it from scratch. Yeah, that's absolutely 513 00:27:38,756 --> 00:27:43,316 Speaker 3: really common, and I think the quality of the experience 514 00:27:43,716 --> 00:27:47,116 Speaker 3: starts to shift if it is something that again you 515 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:51,916 Speaker 3: can run towards what is meaningful, valued important to you, 516 00:27:52,436 --> 00:27:56,956 Speaker 3: and it will start to feel freely chosen. You might 517 00:27:57,036 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 3: still make the pie from scratch, but it's going to 518 00:28:00,116 --> 00:28:03,716 Speaker 3: feel different. Here I'll tell you a story about a 519 00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:07,796 Speaker 3: client I had, and he was a college student and 520 00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:10,996 Speaker 3: all his life had been told that he was smart. 521 00:28:11,276 --> 00:28:14,076 Speaker 3: This label was very important to him, but it also 522 00:28:14,196 --> 00:28:16,396 Speaker 3: created a lot of rules. He said, if I'm smart, 523 00:28:16,756 --> 00:28:20,836 Speaker 3: then I need to study for a long time, Like 524 00:28:20,876 --> 00:28:23,956 Speaker 3: I need to study for like like three hours before 525 00:28:24,476 --> 00:28:27,636 Speaker 3: an exam. I need to basically memorize the study guide 526 00:28:27,716 --> 00:28:31,076 Speaker 3: so that I don't ask any questions that sound stupid. 527 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:33,716 Speaker 3: I can't ask you any questions that made me look foolish. 528 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:36,956 Speaker 3: But it was really driven by this sense of Okay, 529 00:28:36,996 --> 00:28:39,916 Speaker 3: now I have to I must, I should. And it 530 00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:43,356 Speaker 3: was quite distressing to him, like these are overwhelming rules 531 00:28:43,396 --> 00:28:48,116 Speaker 3: to try to fulfill. So what I found interesting was 532 00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:52,596 Speaker 3: that as he moved towards values and for his math class, 533 00:28:52,636 --> 00:28:55,796 Speaker 3: decided to try to run towards the value of learning, 534 00:28:56,116 --> 00:29:00,476 Speaker 3: like he wanted to learn the material and there on 535 00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:04,356 Speaker 3: the surface, he didn't actually do anything different. He still 536 00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 3: studied for a long time. He still studied for about 537 00:29:07,036 --> 00:29:10,196 Speaker 3: three hours, but it was because he wanted to understand, 538 00:29:10,556 --> 00:29:13,476 Speaker 3: He wanted to master this material, and he was really 539 00:29:13,556 --> 00:29:17,516 Speaker 3: driven by I want or like, I freely choose this 540 00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:19,676 Speaker 3: as opposed to I have to or Alsseo'm going to 541 00:29:19,756 --> 00:29:22,916 Speaker 3: lose the label of smart. So again, you might still 542 00:29:22,916 --> 00:29:26,116 Speaker 3: make the pie, but that the quality of that experience 543 00:29:26,156 --> 00:29:28,956 Speaker 3: is going to shift. You can tell when you're running 544 00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:32,076 Speaker 3: towards something that you find purposeful and meaningful. 545 00:29:32,996 --> 00:29:35,796 Speaker 2: So far, Ellen set out some pretty useful tips, ones 546 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:37,836 Speaker 2: that I certainly plan to use to fight my own 547 00:29:37,916 --> 00:29:40,676 Speaker 2: self criticism. But how can we tackle what I've always 548 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:43,556 Speaker 2: thought is the worst symptom of perfectionism, that it drains 549 00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:46,556 Speaker 2: the fun out of even the most enjoyable activities. How 550 00:29:46,556 --> 00:29:48,636 Speaker 2: can I stop the good stuff in life from feeling 551 00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:52,076 Speaker 2: like a chore? Well, Ellen will have the answers after 552 00:29:52,116 --> 00:29:57,876 Speaker 2: the break. 553 00:29:59,636 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 1: What are some activities you find fun? 554 00:30:01,596 --> 00:30:04,396 Speaker 2: Going on a picnic maybe, or having friends over for 555 00:30:04,476 --> 00:30:07,476 Speaker 2: a game night, or working on your favorite craft project. 556 00:30:07,756 --> 00:30:10,316 Speaker 2: On the face of it, these should be enjoyable activities, 557 00:30:10,676 --> 00:30:12,796 Speaker 2: ones that give us a sense of joy. But if 558 00:30:12,836 --> 00:30:15,356 Speaker 2: you have a perfectionist streak like me, you may turn 559 00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:18,636 Speaker 2: these events into tests of your competence. Did I choose 560 00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:21,036 Speaker 2: the best color for that craft project? Did I pick 561 00:30:21,076 --> 00:30:23,276 Speaker 2: the right spot for that picnic? Well? 562 00:30:23,316 --> 00:30:23,716 Speaker 1: My game? 563 00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:26,196 Speaker 2: That guests like the snacks I got, well, they expect 564 00:30:26,276 --> 00:30:27,396 Speaker 2: pretzels and chips? 565 00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:28,556 Speaker 1: What about the dips? 566 00:30:28,956 --> 00:30:32,316 Speaker 2: Perfectionists always want to go above and beyond, which means 567 00:30:32,356 --> 00:30:35,396 Speaker 2: a simple picnic is never just a simple picnic. It 568 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:38,836 Speaker 2: has to be perfect and win admiration. A standard that 569 00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:42,596 Speaker 2: impossibly high doesn't just take work, it breeds constant worry. 570 00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:45,596 Speaker 2: It turns what's supposed to be fun into a chore. 571 00:30:45,916 --> 00:30:48,956 Speaker 2: And this, doctor Ellen Hendrickson says is the problem of 572 00:30:49,036 --> 00:30:50,156 Speaker 2: demand sensitivity. 573 00:30:50,476 --> 00:30:55,116 Speaker 3: So demand sensitivity is exactly that. It's a heightened sensitivity 574 00:30:55,596 --> 00:31:01,356 Speaker 3: to perceived requests or demands. We orient to the shoulds 575 00:31:01,516 --> 00:31:05,956 Speaker 3: of life and what we should be doing. So what happens, though, 576 00:31:06,116 --> 00:31:12,076 Speaker 3: is that we turn wants into should Okay, So for me, 577 00:31:12,716 --> 00:31:16,036 Speaker 3: I keep a running list of books I'd like to 578 00:31:16,076 --> 00:31:19,236 Speaker 3: read or movies I'd like to see on my laptop. Okay, 579 00:31:19,276 --> 00:31:22,716 Speaker 3: but then it's part of all list and my life 580 00:31:23,356 --> 00:31:25,556 Speaker 3: is already full of lists and full of things I 581 00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:28,676 Speaker 3: have to do. And so when it comes time to 582 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:31,316 Speaker 3: you know, sit down and turn on Netflix or the 583 00:31:31,316 --> 00:31:33,756 Speaker 3: book comes in from the library or arrives at the bookstore. 584 00:31:34,396 --> 00:31:36,916 Speaker 3: Now it's a task. Now it's something I have to 585 00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:39,116 Speaker 3: do because it's part of list, and that I lose 586 00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:39,956 Speaker 3: interest completely. 587 00:31:40,596 --> 00:31:43,436 Speaker 2: And that gets to something I've experienced a lot, that 588 00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:47,236 Speaker 2: kind of pernicious outcome of demand sensitivity, which is what's 589 00:31:47,276 --> 00:31:49,036 Speaker 2: called demand resistance. 590 00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:54,156 Speaker 3: Yes, so demand resistance is when we feel so overloaded 591 00:31:54,196 --> 00:31:59,796 Speaker 3: with tasks or shoulds that we start to bulk, We procrastinate, 592 00:32:00,116 --> 00:32:02,316 Speaker 3: we kick the can down the road, even if it's 593 00:32:02,356 --> 00:32:07,036 Speaker 3: something we initially wanted to do, because if we only 594 00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:09,996 Speaker 3: make room for the shoulds of life life, all work 595 00:32:09,996 --> 00:32:13,836 Speaker 3: and no play makes anyone a resentful human. So we 596 00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:15,956 Speaker 3: might do the thing, but we do it with a 597 00:32:15,956 --> 00:32:17,996 Speaker 3: little bit of a resentment or a little bit of 598 00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:23,116 Speaker 3: passive aggression, and that can affect our relationships, you know, 599 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:25,436 Speaker 3: especially if they're important relationships to us, like with our 600 00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:29,476 Speaker 3: partner or our workplace, and it can just make us 601 00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:32,596 Speaker 3: feel like life is this never ending, people pleasing grind. 602 00:32:33,236 --> 00:32:35,356 Speaker 2: Okay, So this is something I go through a lot 603 00:32:35,756 --> 00:32:37,356 Speaker 2: especially demand resistance part. 604 00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:38,716 Speaker 1: How do we fix this? 605 00:32:39,356 --> 00:32:41,476 Speaker 3: So I do have to say, like, this is hard. 606 00:32:41,516 --> 00:32:43,796 Speaker 3: Even doctor Mallinger says, this is one of the most 607 00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:47,276 Speaker 3: difficult things to change when we're trying to pull back 608 00:32:47,316 --> 00:32:50,476 Speaker 3: on our perfectionism. So, okay, let me give you an 609 00:32:50,516 --> 00:32:54,516 Speaker 3: example from my life. So I am really bad at 610 00:32:54,596 --> 00:32:58,876 Speaker 3: keeping up with my email because I see my email 611 00:32:58,996 --> 00:33:01,236 Speaker 3: as a to do list that other people make. 612 00:33:01,556 --> 00:33:03,596 Speaker 1: Not so the biggest not ever. 613 00:33:03,876 --> 00:33:05,676 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a lot of us in this 614 00:33:05,796 --> 00:33:08,556 Speaker 3: same boat. So what I've learned to do is to 615 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:12,076 Speaker 3: try to turn towards my values. And I've found that 616 00:33:12,196 --> 00:33:17,076 Speaker 3: if I think about replying to the individual, the person 617 00:33:17,356 --> 00:33:20,876 Speaker 3: on the other end of that email address, because I 618 00:33:20,996 --> 00:33:26,636 Speaker 3: value my relationship with them, then this all freeze up. 619 00:33:26,716 --> 00:33:29,476 Speaker 3: It's like it's like coming the dried paint out of 620 00:33:29,516 --> 00:33:33,516 Speaker 3: a paint brush. Just everything just kind of gets freed 621 00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:36,556 Speaker 3: up and works more easily, and then I don't feel 622 00:33:36,596 --> 00:33:39,956 Speaker 3: that resistance in getting back to them. You know, it's 623 00:33:39,996 --> 00:33:44,676 Speaker 3: not some magical one eighty, but it absolutely allows me 624 00:33:44,916 --> 00:33:49,716 Speaker 3: to let go of that demand resistance and make things 625 00:33:49,956 --> 00:33:51,156 Speaker 3: work and get back to them. 626 00:33:51,356 --> 00:33:53,716 Speaker 2: I think it also helps just to remember there's a 627 00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:56,156 Speaker 2: reason you're doing this. Right, It's not like, for example, 628 00:33:56,156 --> 00:33:58,116 Speaker 2: in the email case, it's not just this endless list 629 00:33:58,156 --> 00:34:00,276 Speaker 2: of demands that are coming to you. But there's a 630 00:34:00,356 --> 00:34:02,476 Speaker 2: value behind it, right, you know, there was some project 631 00:34:02,516 --> 00:34:04,316 Speaker 2: that you were working on that you really cared about, 632 00:34:04,596 --> 00:34:06,716 Speaker 2: or there's a friendship that you really want to attend to, 633 00:34:06,996 --> 00:34:09,596 Speaker 2: or work colleague that you really care about. Even just 634 00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:12,836 Speaker 2: kind of reconnecting with your values. I feel like it's 635 00:34:12,916 --> 00:34:14,916 Speaker 2: powerful for reducing some of this resistance. 636 00:34:14,996 --> 00:34:17,436 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think we can apply all that 637 00:34:17,636 --> 00:34:20,396 Speaker 3: to because okay, email something we have to do, like 638 00:34:20,436 --> 00:34:22,196 Speaker 3: we do have to do that we got to figure out, like, Okay, 639 00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:23,716 Speaker 3: how am I going to make this work? But then 640 00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:26,316 Speaker 3: when it comes to the optional things, I think we 641 00:34:26,436 --> 00:34:30,916 Speaker 3: can dare to be unproductive. For many of us, there 642 00:34:30,996 --> 00:34:33,596 Speaker 3: is a rule in our head of I should always 643 00:34:33,636 --> 00:34:38,196 Speaker 3: be doing something productive or I should always be improving myself. 644 00:34:38,316 --> 00:34:41,996 Speaker 3: And so I think we can dare to be unproductive 645 00:34:42,156 --> 00:34:47,076 Speaker 3: and turn towards what looks interesting. What does your mind 646 00:34:47,236 --> 00:34:50,996 Speaker 3: keep like wandering towards? And so I think if we 647 00:34:51,116 --> 00:34:55,796 Speaker 3: tap into what makes my spidy senses tingle, what do 648 00:34:56,036 --> 00:34:59,276 Speaker 3: I really want to do? That might be hard? To 649 00:34:59,316 --> 00:35:03,276 Speaker 3: answer at first if our want muscles are very underdeveloped. 650 00:35:03,476 --> 00:35:05,996 Speaker 3: But I think with some practice, we can tune in 651 00:35:05,996 --> 00:35:09,956 Speaker 3: to what we enjoy, what we would like to do, 652 00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:14,276 Speaker 3: what looks fun or cool or interesting, and allow ourselves 653 00:35:14,436 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 3: to do that rather than slog through another should. 654 00:35:18,396 --> 00:35:20,796 Speaker 2: I think this is especially important at the new year, 655 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:23,636 Speaker 2: where we're all finding ourselves right now. This mantra of 656 00:35:23,716 --> 00:35:25,956 Speaker 2: daring to be unproductive, I feel like, is one that 657 00:35:26,236 --> 00:35:28,716 Speaker 2: a lot that I definitely am going to resonate with. 658 00:35:29,156 --> 00:35:31,956 Speaker 2: So now we get to tip number four, another one 659 00:35:31,956 --> 00:35:34,276 Speaker 2: that I have a tough time with. But you've argued 660 00:35:34,316 --> 00:35:37,356 Speaker 2: that we need to redefine failure. Explain what you mean. 661 00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:42,916 Speaker 3: Sure, So if we define failure as not meeting expectations, 662 00:35:43,396 --> 00:35:48,556 Speaker 3: if we set that far for adequate at flawless, it 663 00:35:48,636 --> 00:35:52,396 Speaker 3: means we're never allowed to not meet our very high, 664 00:35:52,516 --> 00:35:58,436 Speaker 3: personally demanding, often unrealistic expectations and ten thousand foot view. 665 00:35:58,596 --> 00:36:01,716 Speaker 3: If we set these again very high standards and we 666 00:36:01,836 --> 00:36:06,516 Speaker 3: inevitably don't meet them over years and decades, we rack 667 00:36:06,596 --> 00:36:09,236 Speaker 3: up a lot of failures and then we start to 668 00:36:09,316 --> 00:36:14,236 Speaker 3: feel like failures. So a rule that I set for 669 00:36:14,356 --> 00:36:17,836 Speaker 3: myself that I didn't even realize until Actually, So I 670 00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:21,796 Speaker 3: was in grad school and I was analyzing some data 671 00:36:22,236 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 3: and was just flailing and struggling by myself for honestly hours, 672 00:36:27,036 --> 00:36:30,796 Speaker 3: and when I went to go show my professor my numbers, 673 00:36:31,156 --> 00:36:34,116 Speaker 3: they were all wrong. And she looked at me and said, Ellen, 674 00:36:34,676 --> 00:36:37,396 Speaker 3: you don't have to do this yourself. And she had 675 00:36:37,476 --> 00:36:40,396 Speaker 3: articulated a rule that I didn't even realize I had. 676 00:36:40,716 --> 00:36:43,436 Speaker 3: Through that lens, I could look back and realize that, 677 00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:47,876 Speaker 3: you know, my over compensation is hyperindependence. And so you know, 678 00:36:47,996 --> 00:36:50,796 Speaker 3: from navigating friend to drama or like trying to move 679 00:36:50,836 --> 00:36:53,316 Speaker 3: furniture like I would do it all myself. So I 680 00:36:53,356 --> 00:36:57,156 Speaker 3: had set this high, personally demanding standard for myself. And 681 00:36:57,236 --> 00:37:00,196 Speaker 3: so if I were to ask for help, or if 682 00:37:00,236 --> 00:37:03,196 Speaker 3: I were to take advice or be vulnerable, that would 683 00:37:03,196 --> 00:37:04,716 Speaker 3: mean that I was failing. It would mean that I 684 00:37:04,796 --> 00:37:09,876 Speaker 3: wasn't reaching that expectation, but it wasn't working for me. 685 00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:12,756 Speaker 3: So what we can do is we can look at 686 00:37:13,356 --> 00:37:17,196 Speaker 3: is this working, is this feasible? Is this workable? And 687 00:37:17,916 --> 00:37:21,236 Speaker 3: when it's not, rather than doubling down and saying, okay, 688 00:37:21,236 --> 00:37:23,516 Speaker 3: well now I really have to do this all myself, 689 00:37:23,756 --> 00:37:27,396 Speaker 3: we can try to do something different and in this example, 690 00:37:27,756 --> 00:37:32,396 Speaker 3: ask for help, take advice, be vulnerable. And what that 691 00:37:32,556 --> 00:37:38,196 Speaker 3: does particularly is it sends two messages. It sends I 692 00:37:38,316 --> 00:37:41,916 Speaker 3: trust you. When we show other people some of the 693 00:37:41,996 --> 00:37:46,236 Speaker 3: mess instead of only the correct highlighted answer at the end, 694 00:37:46,876 --> 00:37:49,196 Speaker 3: it signals I trust you to see some of the 695 00:37:49,236 --> 00:37:52,116 Speaker 3: mess and not to judge me. It also sends the 696 00:37:52,116 --> 00:37:56,516 Speaker 3: message of we are the same, and rather than putting 697 00:37:56,516 --> 00:38:00,716 Speaker 3: ourselves in an invulnerable position of kind of having this 698 00:38:00,876 --> 00:38:05,076 Speaker 3: like coach mentee relationship or teacher student relationship, it puts 699 00:38:05,156 --> 00:38:08,436 Speaker 3: us on an equal level with the people we love 700 00:38:08,476 --> 00:38:11,556 Speaker 3: and who care about us. And so by asking for 701 00:38:11,636 --> 00:38:14,956 Speaker 3: help or showing some of the mess or being a 702 00:38:14,956 --> 00:38:20,156 Speaker 3: little bit vulnerable, we signal I trust you. We're the same, 703 00:38:20,636 --> 00:38:24,276 Speaker 3: and that is what brings us closer instead of what 704 00:38:24,356 --> 00:38:27,436 Speaker 3: perfectionism tells us is that we have to earn our 705 00:38:27,476 --> 00:38:31,476 Speaker 3: way into being liked by doing things well. So ironically 706 00:38:32,316 --> 00:38:35,756 Speaker 3: showing we are capable of doing things poorly or that 707 00:38:35,796 --> 00:38:39,036 Speaker 3: we need their help, they have something to offer us 708 00:38:39,396 --> 00:38:42,276 Speaker 3: that draws us closer as opposed to just performing as 709 00:38:42,316 --> 00:38:43,476 Speaker 3: superbly as possible. 710 00:38:44,156 --> 00:38:45,956 Speaker 2: You talked in the beginning about how this was the 711 00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:48,916 Speaker 2: book that you needed, as writing the book and engaging 712 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:53,156 Speaker 2: with these strategies made you less perfectionist a little bit happier. 713 00:38:54,036 --> 00:38:57,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Well, Okay, so I would say that I 714 00:38:57,676 --> 00:39:02,116 Speaker 3: am still perfectionistic, like I still said high standards. I 715 00:39:02,156 --> 00:39:05,956 Speaker 3: still work hard, I still care deeply about the people 716 00:39:05,996 --> 00:39:08,516 Speaker 3: I work with and for, But I think I'm also 717 00:39:08,796 --> 00:39:12,356 Speaker 3: more flexible. I think about what would work here as 718 00:39:12,436 --> 00:39:16,036 Speaker 3: opposed to did I follow the rules? I think about 719 00:39:16,076 --> 00:39:18,156 Speaker 3: am I living the life I want to live? Am 720 00:39:18,196 --> 00:39:20,116 Speaker 3: I being the person I want to be? Rather than 721 00:39:20,156 --> 00:39:24,556 Speaker 3: simply doing the generic right thing and ironically showing some 722 00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:28,916 Speaker 3: of that mess and showing that I struggle. So telling 723 00:39:28,916 --> 00:39:32,396 Speaker 3: people about my successes and also my failures brings us 724 00:39:32,396 --> 00:39:36,756 Speaker 3: closer together. So ironically I feel more supported and connected 725 00:39:36,996 --> 00:39:39,796 Speaker 3: than when I was really in the grips of unhealthy perfectionism. 726 00:39:40,076 --> 00:39:42,676 Speaker 3: Can I kind of end with one closing please message? Okay, 727 00:39:42,756 --> 00:39:45,156 Speaker 3: A message I want to send to everybody who sort 728 00:39:45,156 --> 00:39:48,196 Speaker 3: of identifies who's been nodding their heads as they've been listening. 729 00:39:48,436 --> 00:39:51,956 Speaker 3: So I got an email from a potential client, somebody 730 00:39:51,956 --> 00:39:55,796 Speaker 3: who wanted to come in and do some work on perfectionism, 731 00:39:56,076 --> 00:39:58,196 Speaker 3: and so I said, cool, come on in and we 732 00:39:58,236 --> 00:40:00,796 Speaker 3: set up a first appointment, and then the day of 733 00:40:00,796 --> 00:40:03,596 Speaker 3: the appointment, she emailed me and canceled, and she said, 734 00:40:04,076 --> 00:40:06,796 Speaker 3: I've taken a look at my schedule and my bandwidth, 735 00:40:07,076 --> 00:40:10,316 Speaker 3: and I want to wait until I have time to 736 00:40:10,516 --> 00:40:14,356 Speaker 3: work really hard on this. I want to make sure 737 00:40:14,636 --> 00:40:19,156 Speaker 3: that I can give this the effort it deserves. And 738 00:40:19,276 --> 00:40:20,796 Speaker 3: what I said to her, and what I'll say to 739 00:40:21,316 --> 00:40:23,796 Speaker 3: listeners out there, is that you don't have to do 740 00:40:23,916 --> 00:40:28,156 Speaker 3: that much differently, that even being five percent less hard 741 00:40:28,156 --> 00:40:31,676 Speaker 3: on yourself, you know, ten percent kinder to yourself, or 742 00:40:32,036 --> 00:40:37,116 Speaker 3: simply trying to change your relationship to your self criticism 743 00:40:37,516 --> 00:40:40,276 Speaker 3: or that over evaluation, that's all you need to do. 744 00:40:40,636 --> 00:40:43,276 Speaker 3: We can still walk around with a lot of rules 745 00:40:43,316 --> 00:40:47,076 Speaker 3: in our head or with the urge to be productive 746 00:40:47,196 --> 00:40:49,956 Speaker 3: every minute of the day, but we don't have to 747 00:40:50,316 --> 00:40:54,236 Speaker 3: listen to them. And instead, if we run towards those values, 748 00:40:54,236 --> 00:40:57,516 Speaker 3: towards what's purposeful or interesting or meaningful, we might not 749 00:40:57,596 --> 00:41:02,676 Speaker 3: even do anything different. It's the mindset beneath that that 750 00:41:02,756 --> 00:41:05,436 Speaker 3: will have changed, and that doesn't take a lot of 751 00:41:05,476 --> 00:41:08,836 Speaker 3: effort or hard work, contrary to what perfectionism tells us. 752 00:41:09,676 --> 00:41:11,916 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I love that message. 753 00:41:11,996 --> 00:41:13,916 Speaker 1: As a perfectionist, it's important. 754 00:41:13,596 --> 00:41:15,756 Speaker 2: To remember that the good stuff in life doesn't have 755 00:41:15,796 --> 00:41:17,916 Speaker 2: to be a hard slog, and Ellen thinks the first 756 00:41:17,916 --> 00:41:20,516 Speaker 2: step can be easy. We can just start right this 757 00:41:20,676 --> 00:41:23,516 Speaker 2: moment by questioning the demanding voice in our heads. If 758 00:41:23,556 --> 00:41:25,756 Speaker 2: it says we're not enough, we can fight back and 759 00:41:25,756 --> 00:41:29,236 Speaker 2: say I am. During our interview, Ellen admitted that she 760 00:41:29,316 --> 00:41:32,076 Speaker 2: still struggles with perfectionism from time to time, and that 761 00:41:32,156 --> 00:41:35,156 Speaker 2: her residual self criticism was bound to torment her after 762 00:41:35,196 --> 00:41:37,636 Speaker 2: our interview, making her feel like she'd messed up or 763 00:41:37,676 --> 00:41:39,236 Speaker 2: said the wrong things during our chat. 764 00:41:39,396 --> 00:41:41,476 Speaker 1: So I decided to call her up and check in. 765 00:41:43,356 --> 00:41:46,876 Speaker 2: Hello, Hey, Ellen, it's LORI calling Hi. 766 00:41:47,156 --> 00:41:48,076 Speaker 3: Thank you for following up. 767 00:41:48,356 --> 00:41:49,436 Speaker 1: Yeah. 768 00:41:49,476 --> 00:41:52,596 Speaker 2: You know, yesterday in our interview, you mentioned this idea 769 00:41:52,676 --> 00:41:55,356 Speaker 2: that sometimes you beat yourself up after interviews, or that 770 00:41:55,396 --> 00:41:57,556 Speaker 2: you might need an emergency gin and tonic. So I 771 00:41:57,636 --> 00:42:00,196 Speaker 2: just wanted to check how is the perfectionism going today? 772 00:42:01,156 --> 00:42:04,316 Speaker 3: Yeah. So the short answer is I did not beat 773 00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:04,996 Speaker 3: myself up. 774 00:42:05,236 --> 00:42:06,356 Speaker 1: Yay yay. 775 00:42:06,556 --> 00:42:09,996 Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm delighted to report that. The long answer 776 00:42:10,356 --> 00:42:13,156 Speaker 3: is that, you know, I did have some thoughts, So 777 00:42:13,276 --> 00:42:17,436 Speaker 3: I did think like, oh, I revealed too much. I thought, oh, 778 00:42:17,516 --> 00:42:20,836 Speaker 3: that could have been more polished. But I am having 779 00:42:20,836 --> 00:42:23,356 Speaker 3: to report that the thoughts didn't hurt in the way 780 00:42:23,396 --> 00:42:28,196 Speaker 3: that the phrase beating myself up. So yeah, and I 781 00:42:28,196 --> 00:42:30,956 Speaker 3: think i've this has happened often enough to note that 782 00:42:31,036 --> 00:42:33,756 Speaker 3: it's just part of the script. It's just the order 783 00:42:33,836 --> 00:42:36,236 Speaker 3: in which things happen. So for me, it's you know, like, 784 00:42:36,316 --> 00:42:41,996 Speaker 3: do interview, I think it sucks, realize it actually didn't, 785 00:42:42,116 --> 00:42:44,236 Speaker 3: or if it does, you know, learn from it, do 786 00:42:44,316 --> 00:42:45,836 Speaker 3: it again. It's kind of like when you go to 787 00:42:45,916 --> 00:42:48,276 Speaker 3: a restaurant, there's a script. There's just what happens. You 788 00:42:48,316 --> 00:42:50,396 Speaker 3: look at the venu, you order, you get your food, 789 00:42:50,476 --> 00:42:52,956 Speaker 3: you eat, you pay, you leave. So you know, for me, 790 00:42:53,236 --> 00:42:56,356 Speaker 3: that's the script for an interview. But for other people, 791 00:42:56,916 --> 00:43:01,996 Speaker 3: those self critical thoughts might automatically come after an exam, 792 00:43:02,076 --> 00:43:05,636 Speaker 3: like oh I probably failed, or after a party where 793 00:43:05,676 --> 00:43:08,756 Speaker 3: we kind of review the low lights and kick ourselves, 794 00:43:08,916 --> 00:43:12,076 Speaker 3: or maybe after a work presentation. It's just but it's 795 00:43:12,436 --> 00:43:16,236 Speaker 3: it's just the script playing out. It doesn't mean that 796 00:43:16,796 --> 00:43:19,516 Speaker 3: next time we have to work harder, or that we 797 00:43:19,596 --> 00:43:22,676 Speaker 3: have to reassure ourselves that we're actually talented, or that 798 00:43:22,796 --> 00:43:26,236 Speaker 3: people like us. We can just let it play out like, Oh, 799 00:43:26,316 --> 00:43:27,676 Speaker 3: there's that thing my brain does. 800 00:43:28,356 --> 00:43:29,196 Speaker 1: Oh I love this. 801 00:43:29,196 --> 00:43:31,676 Speaker 2: This makes me feel so much more encouraged to start 802 00:43:31,756 --> 00:43:34,836 Speaker 2: using some of your strategies myself. So we can flip 803 00:43:34,836 --> 00:43:36,556 Speaker 2: the script on the script as it were. 804 00:43:36,836 --> 00:43:38,316 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so glad. 805 00:43:38,996 --> 00:43:41,156 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Ellen, it was really great to connect again. 806 00:43:40,996 --> 00:43:43,636 Speaker 3: Great to connect with you. Thanks for following up. Thanks, thanks, 807 00:43:43,676 --> 00:43:44,636 Speaker 3: bye bye. 808 00:43:45,196 --> 00:43:46,116 Speaker 1: So there you have it. 809 00:43:46,196 --> 00:43:48,956 Speaker 2: Ellen's effective tips on how to feel like you're enough 810 00:43:49,196 --> 00:43:52,596 Speaker 2: to recap. They include tip number one. Talk back to 811 00:43:52,636 --> 00:43:55,956 Speaker 2: your self criticism. Remember that you can control that mean 812 00:43:56,036 --> 00:43:58,716 Speaker 2: voice in your head. Tip number two. You've got to 813 00:43:58,756 --> 00:44:02,676 Speaker 2: overcome over evaluation. Remember that your worth is just not 814 00:44:02,836 --> 00:44:06,836 Speaker 2: contingent on your performance. Tip number three stop turning fun 815 00:44:06,916 --> 00:44:10,116 Speaker 2: into a chore. Combat your demand sense activity and get 816 00:44:10,156 --> 00:44:12,476 Speaker 2: back to the fun parts of life. Tip number four 817 00:44:12,836 --> 00:44:15,796 Speaker 2: redefine what you mean by failure. You can make the 818 00:44:15,836 --> 00:44:18,676 Speaker 2: switch from an exam mindset to an experiment mindset. 819 00:44:19,556 --> 00:44:20,836 Speaker 1: And tip number five. 820 00:44:20,756 --> 00:44:23,756 Speaker 2: When it comes to fighting perfectionism, baby steps are the 821 00:44:23,796 --> 00:44:26,076 Speaker 2: way to go. In the next episode of our how 822 00:44:26,076 --> 00:44:29,156 Speaker 2: To season, we'll be switching gears. We'll explore some ways 823 00:44:29,156 --> 00:44:31,956 Speaker 2: to put our goals and problems in perspective, and we'll 824 00:44:32,036 --> 00:44:34,676 Speaker 2: learn the benefits of realizing that you're not the center. 825 00:44:34,476 --> 00:44:34,956 Speaker 3: Of the world. 826 00:44:35,276 --> 00:44:38,076 Speaker 2: That's right, we're going to learn how to get over 827 00:44:38,116 --> 00:44:40,356 Speaker 2: ourselves all that next time on 828 00:44:40,396 --> 00:44:43,156 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos,