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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, I entered basic underwater demolition Seal

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Speaker 1: training and in the midst of going through training, there

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Speaker 1: was a case that came out of Little Creek, Virginia,

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Speaker 1: and it was the case of two young seal recruits

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Speaker 1: that had made it over to the teams who had

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Speaker 1: gotten arrested for the murder of a young girl, a

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Speaker 1: young college student vacationing. And I remember the impact that

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Speaker 1: this had on our experience. I remember sitting in second

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Speaker 1: phase and having our senior chief came in and began

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Speaker 1: to give us an ethics class, and it was one

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Speaker 1: of the most impactful things I had ever heard. And

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Speaker 1: it was perplexing at the time that how two young

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Speaker 1: boys who had just gone through the most difficult, arduous

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Speaker 1: thing that you could go through would have a lapse

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Speaker 1: of reasoning where they would kill somebody out of a

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Speaker 1: fit of rage or some sexual desire. And I just

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Speaker 1: couldn't wrap my mind around it. Well, since that time,

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Speaker 1: this case has gotten a lot of attention back then,

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Speaker 1: but it's died off, and as a result, so too

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Speaker 1: has the hopes of Dusty Turner, a young man that

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Speaker 1: has been incarcerated for this crime for over twenty plus

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Speaker 1: years and just the other day, I was on my

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Speaker 1: Instagram feed and I saw this free Dusty campaign that

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Speaker 1: came across and after the second time I saw it,

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Speaker 1: I clicked on it and I began to read the

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Speaker 1: free Dusty dot com website and the fact that this

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Speaker 1: young man is still just grown man, is still incarcerated

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Speaker 1: to this date. So what I wanted to do today

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Speaker 1: is I wanted to bring the people who are responsible

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Speaker 1: for this movement to bring awareness to it, to bring

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Speaker 1: awareness to you so that hopefully, in some way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form, you can participate in bringing some justice to

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Speaker 1: a young man that's already served his time. So, without

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Speaker 1: further ado, I'd like to introduce you to Martin Jens

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Speaker 1: and Aaron Lottman. So thank you both so much for

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Speaker 1: coming on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Dave.

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Speaker 3: It's good to be with you.

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Speaker 1: Martin, I'll start with you, how did you get involved

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Speaker 1: with this, what were the circumstances and why now are

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Speaker 1: you investing so much of your time and trying to

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Speaker 1: bring justice to Dusty.

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Speaker 3: Well, like so many of us stay during the COVID

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Speaker 3: quarantine period that we all went through back in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 3: I found myself uh uh at home looking for things

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Speaker 3: to do and looking for stuff to watch as we

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Speaker 3: were not allowed to get outside. And my wife and

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Speaker 3: I came across the documentary that uh marially pulled us

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Speaker 3: into this whole thing, and we we watched it. And

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Speaker 3: I'm not one to viscerally react to these things, but

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Speaker 3: I found myself really having a tough time getting my

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Speaker 3: head around what I see. What I saw and still

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Speaker 3: see as a grave injustice uh to to Dusty Turner.

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Speaker 3: So I reached out to Dusty. I I took it,

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Speaker 3: took it upon myself to write an old fashioned letter

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Speaker 3: to him, and he responded to me, and I realized

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Speaker 3: in his response, this was a This was a man

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Speaker 3: that was intelligent, he was articulate. And then I began

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Speaker 3: to do more and more research and came to know

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Speaker 3: him better. And I said, okay, now I'm going to

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Speaker 3: go visit him. And then I went to visit him.

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Speaker 3: I took a flight. I live in Florida, took a

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Speaker 3: flight up to Virginia and got to know him personally.

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Speaker 3: And I said, okay, I'm all in on this thing.

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Speaker 3: There's more than one victim here in this case. Jennifer Evans.

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Speaker 3: There's no question that she and her family suffered not

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Speaker 3: because of Dusty's actions. And so we spent the last

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Speaker 3: five years with a small group of US as advocates

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Speaker 3: for Dusty to bring awareness to his case first and foremost,

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Speaker 3: which is why we're so thankful to be on with

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Speaker 3: you today, but as importantly to give the port to

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Speaker 3: Dusty and his family and obviously in the hopes that

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Speaker 3: we can get him out of one has been a

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Speaker 3: TORTUREUS thirty years of incarceration. So that's what brings me,

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Speaker 3: That's what brought me to it. It's the only thing

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Speaker 3: I'm thankful for in COVID.

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Speaker 1: Wow, think about that. I mean, just in that travesty

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Speaker 1: of that that was, which we still don't have answers to, right,

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Speaker 1: you know that you can find this incredible documentary that's

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Speaker 1: on Prime. If anybody wants to go watch this, just

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Speaker 1: type in Dusty Turner Navy Seal and it'll pop up.

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Speaker 1: I just watched it last night, and when before we

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Speaker 1: got on, I was sharing with you just you'd ask

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Speaker 1: me how I was, and you know, it was unsettling.

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Speaker 1: And even though you know the documentary filmmaker who's from

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Speaker 1: the community, you know, and put together a really kind

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Speaker 1: of non biased delivery of all the information. For me,

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Speaker 1: it was just it was categorically just shown that he

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Speaker 1: was innocent. Right. Yes, he didn't behave in the way

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Speaker 1: he should have immediately afterwards, but I thought he painted

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Speaker 1: an incredible picture of the pressure that he must have

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Speaker 1: been under in that circumstance. You know, as well as

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Speaker 1: this the sensation of swim body mentality, and that's a

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Speaker 1: real thing, and perhaps in a bit, you know, we

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Speaker 1: can discuss that after after Aaron delivers kind of the

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Speaker 1: crux of what this is all about. So thank you

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Speaker 1: for sharing that, Martin Aaron. It's just a pleasure to

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Speaker 1: meet you. I really am just thank you for doing

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Speaker 1: what you're doing. I really appreciate it. Could you share

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Speaker 1: the same thing, like what got you involved in this?

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Speaker 1: And and you know, why is it such a personal

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Speaker 1: thing for you?

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Speaker 4: So in nineteen ninety five, I was twenty years old.

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Speaker 4: I am a local to the Virginia Beach area, and

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Speaker 4: I was across the street at a different bar.

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Speaker 2: I was under age. I was at a underah bar.

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Speaker 4: And then the days following I saw that a young

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Speaker 4: woman was missing and I I saw myself and her

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Speaker 4: or she she was very much you know, like my

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Speaker 4: my friends, and the thoughts of that could have been

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Speaker 4: me or you know, my family, and then the subsequent

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Speaker 4: media frenzy that followed. I read the newspapers. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I didn't go to the trial, but it was very

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Speaker 4: much in uh, everybody's communication.

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Speaker 2: If it was at work.

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Speaker 4: I worked at a hotel, it was discussed there, it

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Speaker 4: was discussed within my family and friends. It's everything that

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Speaker 4: consumed us for a very long time. And so I

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Speaker 4: come from a place where I was I was not

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Speaker 4: a supporter of Dusty in the beginning because of how

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Speaker 4: the media portrayed him.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't.

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Speaker 4: Until two and fourteen fifteen when I watched the documentary,

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Speaker 4: and this is before it went on the streaming services.

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Speaker 4: I went to the website and I read about what

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Speaker 4: Dusty was doing. At that time, I watched the documentary,

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Speaker 4: and from that point on I felt compelled. I don't

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Speaker 4: I can't describe, certainly, could be something from above, but

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Speaker 4: I felt compelled to get involved. It took me some

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Speaker 4: time to reach out to him because I never considered

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Speaker 4: my I never considered reaching out to anybody in prison.

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Speaker 4: It's just something that I couldn't do, but I did it.

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Speaker 4: I sent him a an email and I just started

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Speaker 4: the conversation with you don't belong there, you don't belong

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Speaker 4: in prison. And if there's anything that I can do

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Speaker 4: to help, I would like to help you. And and

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Speaker 4: here here we are. It's been six it's been six

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Speaker 4: years that I can say that I've been his his advocate.

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Speaker 4: And and and not too long after that, Martin came

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Speaker 4: along again because he had watched the documentary, and Dusty

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Speaker 4: kind of put us all together in a team.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, that's that, you know, I mean, before

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Speaker 1: we go down, kind of the evaluation of that divine

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Speaker 1: interaction of all of you coming together on behalf of

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Speaker 1: a young man who is languishing uh probably unjustly uh

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Speaker 1: definitely unjustly with with his incarceration. Can you give the listeners, uh,

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Speaker 1: as quick as you can a synopsis of the story,

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Speaker 1: and again, it doesn't have to be in two minutes

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Speaker 1: at all. Take your time and and and and really explained,

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Speaker 1: because I think, you know, one of the interesting things

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Speaker 1: about what you said is when it first went down,

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Speaker 1: you know, you were, yeah, he's guilty, he he and

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Speaker 1: Brown should be in there for life. I felt the

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Speaker 1: same thing. I mean, we were we were told one thing,

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Speaker 1: and you know, all the way, even through my entire

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Speaker 1: eight years, and the teams, you know is always yeah,

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Speaker 1: those you know, those those those jerks, they they smeared

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Speaker 1: our community, they smeared he they did. They should rot

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Speaker 1: in prison forever. So you're not the only one. And

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Speaker 1: I think, you know a good portion of the everybody

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Speaker 1: that came across this story felt the same thing. So

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Speaker 1: could you just give us a kind of an overview

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Speaker 1: of what took place and then what has taken place since?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, So.

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Speaker 4: The nine of June eighteenth, nineteen ninety five, two young

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Speaker 4: Navy sales who were going through their final the Costal

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Speaker 4: Tactical Training s TT. Right, they went to a local

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Speaker 4: nightclub and Dusty met a nice young woman and.

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Speaker 1: She liked Dusty. Right, they were having a great evening

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Speaker 1: together and as I remember, as the documentary said, like

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Speaker 1: things were going great, but unfortunately Brown, who was a

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Speaker 1: notorious alcoholic and violent guy, uh, somehow ended up in

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Speaker 1: the car with them. Is it is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yes? That eventually so.

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Speaker 4: He wanted to be alone with Jennifer Evans and spend

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Speaker 4: timeline and so he found a ride, another ride to

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Speaker 4: take Billy home because he had been drinking, because he

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Speaker 4: knew would be obnoxious, he secured a ride home back

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Speaker 4: to the barracks.

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Speaker 2: And because at the.

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Speaker 4: End of the night, after he found found a ride,

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Speaker 4: they realized they didn't have enough time to do what

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Speaker 4: they had planned, which was the walk on the beach,

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Speaker 4: So they decided to hang out, wait for the friends

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Speaker 4: that were supposed to return at two o'clock and and

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Speaker 4: listen to music because they at that point I think

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Speaker 4: they only had ten minutes before they were.

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Speaker 2: To show up.

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Speaker 4: And and Billy Brown, who was tired of wanting to

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Speaker 4: wait for his ride, he decided he was going to

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Speaker 4: try to find Dusty, and he found his way to

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Speaker 4: the car and he.

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Speaker 2: Got in and.

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Speaker 4: He said a lot of inappropriate things to Jennifer, which

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Speaker 4: initially she ignored. That once either she he either touched

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Speaker 4: her shoulder or touched her hair, she swatted his hand away,

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Speaker 4: and that is when he erupted in violence and in

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Speaker 4: a what is described as it very.

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Speaker 2: Martin's probably the better person.

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Speaker 3: That describe I would. Yeah, it's hard to talk about. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So he was in the back seat of a of

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Speaker 3: a two door car and it was a small vehicle.

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Speaker 3: Jennifer was in the passenger's seat, Dusty was in the

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Speaker 3: driver's seat. They were waiting for her friends to come

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Speaker 3: pick her up. They were listening to music. Billy came out,

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Speaker 3: he was inebriated, got in the back seat of the vehicle,

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Speaker 3: and as Errand just described, he was pretty obnoxious to uh.

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Speaker 3: And she did what any self respecting woman would do

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Speaker 3: if you get touched on their or the shoulder. She

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Speaker 3: slapped his hand. Good on her for doing it. He

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Speaker 3: was in the back seat and he immediately threw his

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Speaker 3: forearm around the headrest, around a neck, and he had

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Speaker 3: all the leverage. He was two hundred and eighteen pounds,

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Speaker 3: six foot three, he'd just been through seal training. He

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Speaker 3: was a strong, strong man and instantaneously ended Jennifer's life.

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Speaker 3: And that was the first domino that fell in the

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Speaker 3: horrific events to follow. So that was the, you know,

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Speaker 3: the seminal event that caused all of this to happen.

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Speaker 3: And he immediately realized what he had done, even though

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Speaker 3: he was pretty inebriated, and told Dusty to drive and

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Speaker 3: just get out of that. So that's when they left.

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Speaker 3: It was the first really fatal mistake in judgment that

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Speaker 3: was made.

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Speaker 1: Mh.

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Speaker 3: But it was what he had been trying to do.

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Speaker 3: He was like, Okay, I got to support my team, buddy,

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Speaker 3: Let's get out of here. And they went and hid

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Speaker 3: Jennifer's body about forty miles away. And then over the

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Speaker 3: next eight days, Dusty was consumed with as anybody can

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Speaker 3: imagine with any empathy or conscience, he was consumed with guilt.

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Speaker 3: Uh uh, but he was. He was in a dilemma.

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Speaker 3: He was either going to give up his friend for

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Speaker 3: what he had done.

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Speaker 1: And they had They were in budgs together. They had

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Speaker 1: been rolled back together. They went through every they were

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Speaker 1: they were die buddies.

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Speaker 3: They were.

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Speaker 1: They were together at the same team that like they were.

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Speaker 1: They were simpatico, right, they were.

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Speaker 3: They were very very Yeah and you would know this

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Speaker 3: better than I do day, but you know it's very

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Speaker 3: unusual when they go through they they start out together.

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Speaker 3: They were the same heigh at six foot three, so

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Speaker 3: they were but on the same boat teams. Yeah, they

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Speaker 3: were swim buddies. Uh. They got rolled back because of

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Speaker 3: the because of injuries.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 3: They I think they lashed out two classes later and

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Speaker 3: then they were putting. They were assigned Seal Team four

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Speaker 3: and both went to Seal Team four. Uh so they

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Speaker 3: it probably is not what you normally see, and you

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Speaker 3: can opine, but but I don't think that's that's standard procedure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I got rolled twice in training. I

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Speaker 1: mean I must have seen. I was in from class

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Speaker 1: two zero five to zero six, two zero eight to

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Speaker 1: zero nine. You know, so just hundreds of guys coming

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Speaker 1: and going, and even the guys that I went through

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Speaker 1: Hell Week with and eight, you know, I got rolled

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Speaker 1: into two oh nine. Some of those guys I never

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Speaker 1: saw again, right, and in their entire careers. So it

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Speaker 1: just that is for me, one of the really fascinating

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Speaker 1: aspects of this whole thing. And then the other aspect

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Speaker 1: I think that really kind of popped for me. And

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Speaker 1: this was you know, when you do learn their backgrounds.

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Speaker 1: And Dusty was twenty at the time, right, and Brown

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Speaker 1: was a little older than he was, right, because he

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Speaker 1: he had done some college and he had been in

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Speaker 1: Coast Guard, gotten kicked out of the Coast Guard, and

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Speaker 1: you know as college.

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Speaker 2: I don't think he went to college.

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Speaker 1: Oh he didn't do any college time. Okay, all right,

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Speaker 1: I thought in the documentary had said that, but so

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Speaker 1: he you know, you as a younger team guy, I remember,

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Speaker 1: you know one making it through like Dusty did it

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Speaker 1: at eighteen years old. I mean that that the eighteen

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Speaker 1: year olds are usually at their their dropout rate is

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Speaker 1: in the high nineties because it's just so overwhelming the

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Speaker 1: mental impact of that program, the maturity that's required, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that he was able to do that is

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Speaker 1: pre remarkable. But one of the things that I would see,

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Speaker 1: in particular when I became an instructor for what STT

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Speaker 1: became s QT, was you would see the younger guys

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Speaker 1: look up to some of the more uh, the stronger guys,

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Speaker 1: or the guys that were you know, when we'd go

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Speaker 1: out or they'd go out, the tougher guys or the

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Speaker 1: guys that you know there you just kind of like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm not sure what I need to be

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Speaker 1: right now in my life, but this guy kind of

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Speaker 1: represents the mentality that I was just indoctrinated to for

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Speaker 1: how you know, the year plus they were in buds

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Speaker 1: together and and it does create an uncommon bond, and

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Speaker 1: that bond the you know, is much more intense than

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Speaker 1: anything il I've ever EXPERI even playing D one D

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Speaker 1: one sport in college, it's nothing is like that bond.

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Speaker 1: So you know, as you're listening to this, and you

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Speaker 1: you think, well, if I had just watched you know, someone,

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Speaker 1: I know, somebody, I would have just pulled the car over,

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Speaker 1: got out in the car. It's not like that. It's

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Speaker 1: I mean, you are so conditioned. I mean, in Budgs

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Speaker 1: you can't even go to the bathroom by yourself. Everything

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Speaker 1: is driven upon this swim buddy mentality. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: that's the one thing that I think is critical to

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Speaker 1: allow yourself to understand. And this young man who had

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Speaker 1: just achieved a dream, he's in this predicament and he

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Speaker 1: just watched this you know this you know guy who

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Speaker 1: he's seen, you know, get in many many fights prior

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Speaker 1: to kill this woman. I mean, the fear, the confusion,

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Speaker 1: all of that I think is important to understands as

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Speaker 1: you think about this. So I'm sorry, Martin. I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to just give it a little context for people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's great context, and I think it gets

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Speaker 3: lost on the average civilian like myself.

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Speaker 1: Because one more point, can I add you know, you

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Speaker 1: know when I was you know, I grew up you know,

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Speaker 1: in Southeast Florida, and you know, I barely I don't

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Speaker 1: think I ever got in a real fight my whole life.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you go into this this community, and

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Speaker 1: the entire thing is a derivative of violence, right, and

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Speaker 1: really high level violence. And and so you know, you

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Speaker 1: when you are around other people that have maybe where

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Speaker 1: however they grew up, they were, they faced it more,

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Speaker 1: they were part of it more. There's almost this estimation

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Speaker 1: that you know, it's like, oh, man, if I'm not

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Speaker 1: violent enough, or if I don't support my buddy in

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Speaker 1: the bar or something like that, You're almost like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're going to find me out, Like you're you're worried

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Speaker 1: about that ment. At least I was, like I was.

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Speaker 1: I was worried that I didn't have the background. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't a true fighter. I didn't grow up on a street.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn'tn't, you know, I didn't grow up in a

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Speaker 1: troubled home or anything like that. And and and from

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Speaker 1: my understanding, you know, Dusty had that life. You know,

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Speaker 1: he was you know, played sports and accomplished athlete. He

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Speaker 1: was a boy scout. He was, you know, a good

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Speaker 1: looking young man. He everybody liked him. He had this

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Speaker 1: wonderful personality. And so you know, when I hear this

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Speaker 1: story and I you know, I think of that pressure,

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Speaker 1: that pressure to lean into that that world of violence

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Speaker 1: or as as my my therapist so aptly describes it

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Speaker 1: as the culture death culture. Right, it's just woven into it.

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Speaker 1: And so that can be very intense if you're not

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Speaker 1: used to it. You don't come from something. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying death is built into everybody's background, but this that intensity, right,

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Speaker 1: it's the reflection of violence, of society's violence that kind

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Speaker 1: of sets into many guys who go through the program. So,

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Speaker 1: all right, I've talked too much.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, go ahead, No, I think it's it's important

348
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Speaker 3: to understand, you know, the mentality. I think even in

349
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Speaker 3: the documentary, Dusty points out that he's in he's been,

350
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Speaker 3: he was in bar fights that he didn't he didn't

351
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Speaker 3: even know what he was fighting about. Uh So I

352
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Speaker 3: think that sort of exemplifies what you're saying. And he

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Speaker 3: is if you know the man today, he's not a

354
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Speaker 3: man he you know, he's not a man to be

355
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Speaker 3: trifled with. But he's not a man that is prone

356
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Speaker 3: to violence. That's not as that's not in his DNA.

357
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Speaker 3: I don't think, you know, just having come to know

358
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Speaker 3: him over these last few years. But so they, you know,

359
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Speaker 3: they they went about their business this following week, Dave

360
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Speaker 3: and Uh, Actually Dusty had had an accident during training.

361
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Speaker 3: I think a gun misfired on him and he had

362
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Speaker 3: he was injured. So this is sort of there's some

363
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Speaker 3: compounding trauma here on top of the the anguish that

364
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Speaker 3: he was going through with what had just happened. And eventually, Uh,

365
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Speaker 3: they he decided, based on the instruction of his warrant officer,

366
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Speaker 3: to come clean and tell the story about what happened,

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Speaker 3: and which he did. And you know, he was led

368
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Speaker 3: to believe that if he did that everything would be okay,

369
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Speaker 3: but it wasn't. And so he told told the story

370
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Speaker 3: to the to the authorities, and Billy Brown realized that

371
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 3: Dusty had violated some of this unwritten code of writing

372
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Speaker 3: him out, and he then began to tell his own

373
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Speaker 3: version of the story, which we subsequently find out in

374
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Speaker 3: early two thousand was a manufactured truth to implicate thus team,

375
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Speaker 3: but unfortunately it was too late by then. Uh, and

376
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 3: that really is some of the crux of the injustice,

377
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 3: uh that has occurred these many years later. Aaron, I

378
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Speaker 3: don't know if you want to add.

379
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Speaker 1: To a little bit about the the initial case and

380
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Speaker 1: and that battle that must be gone must have been

381
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Speaker 1: going on because you had a prosecutor that was apparently,

382
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Speaker 1: you know, the guy went after the big capital murder cases.

383
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Speaker 1: And then you had you had two defense attorneys that

384
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Speaker 1: were essentially pitted against each other and the prosecution. Can

385
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Speaker 1: you describe that dynamic a little.

386
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Speaker 4: Bit, Well, you have, uh, the lead prosecutor. There was

387
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Speaker 4: two two prosecutors, and one who was trying to make

388
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Speaker 4: a name of himself.

389
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Speaker 2: He was known to get all the high profile cases.

390
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 4: And then you have two defense attorneys who Dusty had,

391
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 4: one who was ending his career, who was close to retirement,

392
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Speaker 4: and then the other one who also was trying to

393
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Speaker 4: make a name for himself. He's subsequently a judge today

394
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Speaker 4: in Virgin Beach. A lot of people, a lot of

395
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 4: the characters in this case moved on to bigger and

396
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 4: better things because of this. Everyone got a notch on

397
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Speaker 4: their belt, including the prosecutor, who subsequently went on to

398
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 4: the court of a court of appeals and was in

399
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 4: place when Dusty was going through his worot of actual innocence.

400
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 4: He recused himself. But I should back up a little

401
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 4: bit to the original trial and and you know, you

402
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 4: have a case with no evidence. This was one hundred

403
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 4: percent circumstantial case. And so what they have to do

404
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 4: is convince a jury. What can I what can we do?

405
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 4: What can we say to convince a jury? And so

406
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 4: they use Billy Brown's testimony. They use one of his

407
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 4: stories because he told multiple different stories, and so they

408
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 4: use one of them that kind of would fit into

409
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 4: so they could prosecute two of them. And so they

410
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 4: use one of the stories, and that was that they

411
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 4: both they both were involved.

412
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Speaker 2: And I think I need to give some kudos to Jdlate.

413
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Speaker 4: The documentary because he has he he has stated that

414
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 4: it does not make sense that two Navy seals, because

415
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 4: the prosecution's case was that they planned this is a

416
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 4: plan thing. They had sex on their mind and this

417
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 4: was all about raping Jennifer Evans and taking her away

418
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 4: and abducting her. So you have two Navy seals that

419
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 4: plan this. They're going to go to a club that

420
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 4: that others would recognize them. They had one of Billy

421
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: Brown's ex girlfriend worked there and actually she's the one

422
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 4: that called crimestoters and then uh, Dusty would show his

423
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: ID to multiple to the victim and her friends and

424
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 4: then then try to solidify a ride for Billy Brown

425
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 4: who's supposed to be committing this crime with him. So

426
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 4: you're none of it makes make sense. But they were

427
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 4: able to convince the jury that you know, using as

428
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 4: much salacious in a salacious way, and to demonize him

429
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 4: and and and that's that's what happened. They told a story,

430
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 4: they created a theory, and the jury bought it. And

431
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 4: this happen Unfortunately, happens every day. Dusty is not the

432
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 4: only one that's languishing in prison right now. I mean,

433
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 4: this is why we're here today is to talk about Dusty.

434
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 4: But there's so many people like Dusty.

435
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: That's thousands, yeah, thousands, yes.

436
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: And it's so easy to get a conviction.

437
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 4: And that's what a lot of people don't realize is

438
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 4: that it is so easy to get a conviction. It's

439
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 4: all about how they present it, how much drama they

440
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 4: bring to the courtroom, and that's how they get a conviction.

441
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 4: It's so easy to convict, it's terribly hard to exonerate.

442
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: And that's it's almost like the whole mentality of innocent

443
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: until proven guilty in the modern era has just been

444
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: flipped right, because whoever is more performative, whoever can put

445
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: on the better show, whoever can wow the audience. I mean,

446
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: look at the O. J. Simpson case. I mean that's

447
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: one of the most prolific ones there is, or Bill

448
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: Cosby or whoever. You know, a lot of these high

449
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: profile cases. Once you have this massive public attention and

450
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: you know, you get the media involved, who are desperate

451
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: in terms of views in selling newspapers, and like you said,

452
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: the more salacious it can be, the more eyes you get,

453
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: is more paper you sell. So what's going to say, Oh, yeah,

454
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna run with this thing that's part of the story.

455
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: There's no proof and just go broke. What were some

456
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: of the things that you that really stand out for

457
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: you as just just travesties of that initial trial for Dusty?

458
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: There are a few things the so the the Billy's story, uh,

459
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: would require somebody to believe that a six to three

460
00:29:53,280 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 3: man could and the person he was allegedly raping would

461
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 3: fit between the seats. Was it a geostorm, yeah, geostor, yeah, geostorm. Yeah.

462
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: The space between the two front the two front seats

463
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 3: is probably about seven or eight inches wide. You, it defies,

464
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 3: it defies imagination how somebody might be able to do that.

465
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 3: But the jury was never able to see the vehicle.

466
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 3: They asked to see the vehicle, and they were never

467
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: able to see the vehicle. They created a mock up

468
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: of it as you saw in the documentary that didn't

469
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 3: have the shell of the vehicle wasn't actually in the courtroom.

470
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: So zeros were couldn't imagine in their mind's eye what

471
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: what the confine, how confined that space would be if

472
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 3: they were able to see it, then it would be

473
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: uh implausible or very hard to believe the story that

474
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: they had been told about Billy. So that's on. There

475
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 3: was there was.

476
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: Uh what about blood, body fluids, hairs all that.

477
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 3: So the body fluid so one of the things that

478
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: did occur. This is probably more graphic, perhaps than some

479
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: of you listeners might want to hear. But when when

480
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: Billy Brown uh committed the act of killing Santa for

481
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 3: Evans de urinated in the front seat. We know that

482
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 3: to be a fact because of testimony subsequent Uh, but

483
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 3: what we don't know is where those front where the

484
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 3: front seat was, So there's no forensic evidence that was

485
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 3: the forensic evidence that would to prove that to have happened.

486
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: It was unavailable. Dusty's legal representation of the time chose

487
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 3: to make the decision to use the state's forensic evidence

488
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: and not do their own forensic analysis. Clearly, had they

489
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: done that, and had they checked the front seat, it

490
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: would have cast a much different picture on what happened

491
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 3: and the timing of what happened. So you know that

492
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 3: those are the two things that I mean, there's a

493
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 3: cascading set of things that go beyond that, but those

494
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 3: are two that stand out as being significant. And then,

495
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 3: of course they chose to put Dusty on the stand.

496
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: And I think any lawyer would tell you that putting

497
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 3: somebody that's convicted of murder on the stand is never

498
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: a good strategy. So you know, I'm not a lawyer,

499
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: but you know, I don't think that's something that is

500
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 3: recommended the time. So there's a few things here that just.

501
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: Have have either one to talk to Dusty about that

502
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: moment when he went on the stand and and what

503
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: his state of mind was what whether you know, have

504
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: you had any conversation like that like that about with him?

505
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: I have not recently.

506
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 4: I know that a lot of it he doesn't remember, uh,

507
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 4: he remembers, you know, the state of how he felt

508
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 4: and how his family was was, you know, what they

509
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 4: were going through. You know, he left a lot of

510
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 4: the decisions you know, to his lawyer, into his family.

511
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: You know, I I don't have.

512
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 4: A a really good answer of you know what what

513
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 4: was in his mind at that time. I think a

514
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 4: lot of a lot of it is a blur for him.

515
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: I can't imagine. Yeah, I just can't even imagine the

516
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: pressure of that. Here your whole life is crumbling. And

517
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: the other aspect, too, is like you're trying to do

518
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: the right thing, right you finally you go to your warrant,

519
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: you go to your chain and command. You you confess

520
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: that you participated, and you know and and you know

521
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: placing the body out in the woods, but you know,

522
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: you know it's wrong. It's weighing on you. You know,

523
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: you confess and and no matter what you do, it

524
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: just gets worse and worse and worse, and and kind

525
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: of that spiral that is that can happen in in

526
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: the justice system and once once you know the I

527
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: guess it's once the narrative. What's the old saying that

528
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: a lie can make make it around the world before

529
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: anybody knows it's true, right, And I think you know

530
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: that's what happened to this young man, and is you know,

531
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: just you know, you're also one of the other components

532
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: that you know, you go through this training man, you

533
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: are programmed, and if you get into a position where

534
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: somebody's of authority, like his defense attorney was, and you know,

535
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: just the limited you know, they portray him in the

536
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: the documentary, it's here's this old guy who's been accomplished

537
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: attorney's been practicing law in the area for for decades

538
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: and decades, the stellar reputation, and I got it. It's

539
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: all right, trust me, I'm going to take care of it.

540
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: And his parents are then, you know, telling Dusty known

541
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: his fill he's good and he don't work does the

542
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: right you know, he's you just go along with it,

543
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: just like he went along with the other component. I

544
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: mean it, I think it really embodies the confusion that

545
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: that he was, you know, that he was faced with

546
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: and not knowing how to advocate for himself, not knowing

547
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: how to stand up, you know. And I think about

548
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: probably a significant portion of that was imbued in this

549
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: profound guilt that he had on his heart from from

550
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: the whole circumstance.

551
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, he definitely that whole time period was extremely overwhelming.

552
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 4: He was just going through the motions. You know, his

553
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 4: mom had sensed it, sinced it in phone conversations, and

554
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 4: when they you know, the FBI came, and then you know,

555
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 4: the interview with Virginia Beach Police, and once his warrant

556
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 4: officer asked him to tell him what happened.

557
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 2: After he'd told his worn officer what.

558
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 4: Happened, he felt an immense relief that he was able.

559
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: To get it off his chest.

560
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 4: And and you know, his worn officer reached out to

561
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 4: Jag and and Jag came back and said, well, this

562
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 4: is a civilian problem. And so they really yes, they

563
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 4: never had any interaction.

564
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: With not once. No, they didn't offer to provide him

565
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: with an attorney or counsel or nothing.

566
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 4: No, and so no, so he came back to Dusty

567
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 4: and said, this is a civilian matter. Go ahead and

568
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 4: answer these five questions that the police want to tell you. So,

569
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 4: Dusty kind of took this as an order and he

570
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 4: spoke to the police.

571
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 2: He told them exactly again.

572
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 4: He retold the story to the police.

573
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 3: I think I think an important point, just to let

574
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: me just interject for just a second. Dusty was shocked

575
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 3: that he thought he would need a lawyer at this point,

576
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 3: because he had been led to believe that he just

577
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 3: needed to come clean and it would be okay. So

578
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 3: he was shocked. He said, do you think I need

579
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 3: a lawyer?

580
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

581
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. It was after he agreed to, you know, show

582
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 4: the police and the Warren officer one as well, to

583
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 4: show where Jennifer, where Jennifer was at, and it was

584
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 4: at the end of the day going back to a

585
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 4: p hill and his warrant officer told him, you probably

586
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 4: should get a lawyer.

587
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,479
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Well that's not the first time I've

588
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: I've heard that before in in the military. Uh, just

589
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: about every unit out there as well too. It's just

590
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: such a you just think about this, this young man

591
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: and granted and again it if if Jennifer's family is listen,

592
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: or if you listen to this, my most sincereous condolences.

593
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: I have four daughters I don't know what I would

594
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: do if this happened to me. I'm so sorry for

595
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: your loss. Even to this day, it never goes away.

596
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: And I hope you don't believe that any of us

597
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: are trying to be inconsiderate. All we're trying to do

598
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: is just bring some light to this other young man

599
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: who is caught in this situation with somebody that you know, arguably,

600
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: at a minimum has sociopathic tendencies at a maximum, could

601
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: be quantified as a psychopath. Speaking of this, you know,

602
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: can either one of you just talk a little bit

603
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: about Brown and who he was and his demeanor throughout

604
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 1: this trial and investigation the whole thing.

605
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 3: Well, I can offer my two cents. I've never had

606
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 3: any interaction with Brown, so I don't know the man

607
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 3: on a one to one level. All of my opinions

608
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 3: about Brown a based on anecdotal information. But I would say, uh,

609
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 3: you your description of who he is and his uh,

610
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 3: his behavioral tendencies, it certainly resonates, and I think, uh,

611
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 3: probably a guy appropriately characterizes what the man's about.

612
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 5: Uh.

613
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: What's interesting is is and I found this out later on,

614
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: as I, you know, was trying to really kind of

615
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: dissect or or try and understand the programming that's that's

616
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: evolved over eighty years, right, and you think about the

617
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: quality of soldier or sailor that that the special Operations

618
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: training produces, and then they're the best in the world,

619
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm you know, I'm more proud of.

620
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: You know, there's probably nothing other than you know, my

621
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: wife and my children that I'm more proud to be

622
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: a part of than than being a Navy c and

623
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 1: going through that training being exposed to it. But I'm

624
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: not naive either, and I understand what the intention is

625
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: and and and what they're looking for in young men

626
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: in particular, and part of the attributes and traits they're

627
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: looking for they fit into that kind of let's call

628
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 1: it a sociopathic tendencies if you know, probably not true

629
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: fundamental sociopath, but you know, that's who they're looking for.

630
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: They're looking for that type of person that can allow

631
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: a level of either moral relativism to take control or

632
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: most certainly a level of cognitive dissonance that is kind

633
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: of integrated into the core psychology of the individual. Right

634
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: you have to have it. I mean, I have some friends,

635
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: you know that have eight hundred combat missions and you're

636
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: not telling me that there aren't. Some of those tendencies

637
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 1: is to be able to go to war that often,

638
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: that much and and still be able to keep going

639
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: back and to perform at a high level.

640
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 3: Right.

641
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: So it's it's built in. It's who they're kind of

642
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: looking for, is is that individual who can disassociate themselves,

643
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: if you will, from from uh uh some to become

644
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: somewhat predictive in their ability to engage it at a

645
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: high level in violence. Right, there's a reason why one

646
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: of our predominant orders is is violence of action. Right.

647
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: And then they're they're training us to be in that capacity.

648
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: So if you already have are predisposed for it in

649
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: some capacity, and then all of a sudden, now you're

650
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 1: trained into it to a whole nother degree. Man, You're

651
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: in many cases, you're like a ticking time bomb. Right,

652
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: It's just what is the circumstance that's going to hit you,

653
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: what time it is, and then what level of reaction

654
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: are you going to get it? And I'll never forget,

655
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: uh my my CEO one time we were at when

656
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: I was at Team one, wonderful guy unbelieve probably one

657
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: of the best leaders I've ever had. We were getting

658
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: reamed out by our command master chief because a guy

659
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: at another team had gone down to Tijuana and gotten

660
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: into a big bar fight down there on the streets,

661
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: and you know, very kind of typical behavior for for

662
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: that era and time in the teams, and and as

663
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: we're being lectured, and finally the CEO stepped up and

664
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 1: he said, well, look, all right, gentlemen, here's the deal.

665
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: I do understand you can't feed a tiger milk, uh,

666
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: but uh, don't get caught, you know, that kind of mentality.

667
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: And it was like, all right, that's kind of a

668
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: mixed bag, but all right, I hear what you're saying, Roger,

669
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: that you know, and and it is this difficult thing

670
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: that you're doing, right. You're you're, you're, you're you're imprinting

671
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: a level of intensity into young men who are the

672
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: most vulnerable age groups ever in history. For that type

673
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: of priming. I mean, why do you think young men

674
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: are the men who die in wars throughout history? Right?

675
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: It's because they're they're easier to lift up, get fired up,

676
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: and send them into combat. And that's just the nature

677
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: of us as individuals during that timeframe. So for me,

678
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: it's it's almost like, all right, you know, after Dusty

679
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: begins to repent in his mind and try and get

680
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: through this, for the community not to support him fully

681
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,479
Speaker 1: at least by providing him with a JAG attorney. Right,

682
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: even if the JAG attorney wasn't even he still is

683
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: the only one that could be able to articulate that

684
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: that concept absolutely in a court of law, because that

685
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but a seventy year old attorney, no matter

686
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: how brilliant they are, cannot surmise that in front of

687
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: a jury and give it the credibility that you would

688
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: have a JAG officer. Do you guys know where any

689
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 1: of Dusty's senior leadership brought in to give character assessments

690
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: of him or any of hismates.

691
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 4: No, no, his attorney did not call a lot of

692
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 4: character witnesses in Yeah.

693
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, not at all.

694
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: That's staggering to me. Yeah, all right, let's fast forward

695
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: a little bit now, and when was there there? When

696
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: did Brown come out and essentially get on the stand

697
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: and admit what he had done? What year was that?

698
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 4: That was in two thousand and eight. That was in

699
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 4: two thousand and eight, But It was in nineteen ninety nine,

700
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 4: two thousand when he told his attorney and mother that

701
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 4: that he lied and that Dusty had nothing to do

702
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 4: with the crime, and his attorney told no one.

703
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: His attorney didn't say a word.

704
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 4: Billy Brown's attorney told nobody. And it wasn't until two

705
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 4: thousand and two. Dusty was out on the reck yard

706
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 4: and a guy who had just transferred there and said, hey,

707
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 4: did you know Billy Brown is telling everybody that that

708
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 4: he lied and that you're innocent? And he was like what,

709
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 4: He goes, yeah, you didn't hear Billy Brown. He's he's

710
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 4: a Christian and he has come out with the full confession.

711
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 4: And so his mother scrambled to get an attorney in

712
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 4: that area, to go get an Affidavid, and it took

713
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 4: six more years to get in court.

714
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 5: Six more years, six more years, and to get a

715
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 5: writ of actual innocence, which is in Virginia it's sort

716
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 5: of a one and done, one shot deal.

717
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 3: To rehear your case in front of a panel of

718
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: judges and present new and compelling evidence as to why

719
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 3: you're innocent. And so that's what happened. In two thousand

720
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 3: and eight, he had a writ hearing, and it was

721
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: the first first time in Virginia history where he was

722
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 3: found to be actually innocent, where someone was found to

723
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 3: be actually innocent without physical evidence. It was based solely

724
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: on the confession of Billy Brown on the stand.

725
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: And who was the judge and what was the outcome

726
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: of that? Obviously, Dusty's still in cars trated. So what

727
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: happened next?

728
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 4: So when you apply for a rid of actual innocence,

729
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 4: the Court of Appeals puts it on the the the

730
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 4: lower courts, the ones that convicted, it to the circuit

731
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 4: court to do the fact finding. So it was a

732
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 4: Virginia Beach judge. So the same court that convicted him

733
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 4: was a judge that ruled that Dusty that this case

734
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 4: was solely circumstantial, and that he ruled that Billy Brown

735
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 4: was the perpetrator and that Dusty had no role in

736
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 4: the crime itself. And two days after that ruling is

737
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 4: when the Attorney General that's sorry, no, no, I'll take I

738
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 4: got it back up here. The Court of Appeals then

739
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 4: affirmed that court's that court's decision. And once the Court

740
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 4: of Appeals affirmed that decision, the Attorney General spoke up

741
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 4: two days later so at that point he's essentially exonerated.

742
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: He should be going home. But the Attorney genial.

743
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: Night that night he should be out of prison.

744
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 4: Yes, and if you see, if anybody else is going

745
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,240
Speaker 4: through the writ process, they go home. But the Attorney

746
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 4: General stepped in and said, now that's not what we

747
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 4: want here. They appealed that decision and said then it

748
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 4: went to the higher court, which is the appellate you

749
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 4: know the appellate courts they call the Court of Appeals

750
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 4: on bank and there was a judge who put forward

751
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 4: a theory which I you know, it's really hard for

752
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 4: us non legal law people to really understand. But didn't

753
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 4: even think it's possible that you can just come up

754
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 4: with a new theory that was never tested against a

755
00:49:55,680 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 4: jury that you know, essentially Dusty is in prison today.

756
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 4: They have they acknowledged the fact that he hasn't committed

757
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 4: the murder. But because Virginia has a felony murder doctrine,

758
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 4: if you uh, you can be held liable if there's

759
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 4: another if they can prove that another felony occurred, meaning

760
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 4: the abduction, yeap, and that's what why he's being held here.

761
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: That there there was there was no abduction.

762
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 1: There was no abduction, got in the car willfully with him.

763
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

764
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 4: So they're saying that it is because of deception, that

765
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 4: Dusty deceived her and to get her to come to

766
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 4: the car.

767
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: Who is the attorney general that did this? What's his name?

768
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 4: I can't think it was for his first name. It's

769
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 4: meant now, I would have to look I would have

770
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 4: to look at it.

771
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: Martin something, so Martin. As this goes back to the

772
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: Attorney general, attorney general goes to the en banc, the

773
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: en banc process, the judge comes back with this new

774
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: you know sham argument that that he coerced this this

775
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: young lady into the into the vehicle. And and have

776
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: you talked to Dusty? What was his reaction in that moment?

777
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: I mean was did you have you ever have you

778
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: ever had that kind of discussion with him where he

779
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: opened up about stuff like that for you with you?

780
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 3: I haven't. I have not had that conversation with him. David.

781
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 3: I'm sure, I'm sure Aaron has. He's the articles. Yeah, well,

782
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 3: certainly when he celebrated when he was filmed actually innocent, right,

783
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 3: but when it was overturned by the way it was

784
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 3: took three more years for it to get overturned by

785
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court three more years, three more years. So

786
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 3: the over it was overtime in two thy and eleven.

787
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 3: And if do I have that right? Aaron was at

788
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 3: twenty ten or eleven?

789
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 4: Uh. Eight was the eventure evidentiary hearing of nine is

790
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 4: when Court of Appeals affirmed two thousand and.

791
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 6: Ten.

792
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 4: Ten ten is when they on bog made their decision,

793
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 4: and then eleven was when the the Supreme Court affirmed.

794
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: The do you have.

795
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 4: So William Mems was he had a short term in

796
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 4: Virginia at the time. He was filling in for another

797
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 4: who went out for other reasons. And uh, he is

798
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 4: the one that appealed the decision. And then right before

799
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 4: the the court, the Supreme Court of Virginia made their decision,

800
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,959
Speaker 4: he was put in a seat there on the Supreme Court.

801
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so he's a current acting.

802
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 4: Not anymore, not anymore. But around the time, around the

803
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 4: time that Dussy was going through this process, he he

804
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 4: he was he was.

805
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: An Attorney general.

806
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 4: And then while he was while Dusy was going through

807
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 4: this whole process, he was appointed to the Supreme Court

808
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 4: of Virginia.

809
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: Do you have the names of those justices that made

810
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: that decision.

811
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 4: Can you get those I could give you, Yeah, I

812
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 4: could get a list of those.

813
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, region the one that put forward this theory.

814
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: Which is I would like all those names, and then

815
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: we'll post those on the notes of the show so

816
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: people can go and see where this travesty, who's responsible

817
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: for this continuing? So I want to I want to

818
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: make sure that that's known, and if these people have

819
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: moved up into higher office or wherever they're at, I

820
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 1: want them to be accessible to once this starts to

821
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: gain some greater steam out there and people get behind Dusty.

822
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: So Martin, you you were going to say something, I

823
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: cut you off. I'm sorry.

824
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 3: Just well, just a little interesting nuance about you know,

825
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 3: the justification for overturning there was one would in the

826
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 3: in the decision, as it was written, that a reasonable

827
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 3: juror could believe that Dusty was trying to deceive Jennifer Evans,

828
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 3: and therefore the deception in and of itself was a felony.

829
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 3: What's interesting, that's a very high bar, right, So you

830
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 3: you could believe is yeah, maybe I could, Maybe I couldn't, right,

831
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 3: That's it's been changed. In fact, I think it changed

832
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 3: in twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen where a reasonable juror

833
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 3: actually would believe, so the bar was raised to a

834
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 3: point where you'd actually have to believe that he was

835
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 3: trying to deceive it. Well, if you look at the

836
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 3: actions that he took that night, where he was showing

837
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 3: his ID, he was open, he was sharing his phone number,

838
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 3: they weren't trying to hide anything. If they were trying

839
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 3: to deceive people, you don't do it by giving you

840
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 3: providing an open book about who you are.

841
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: Especially in public setting like a bar in Bobby around

842
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: you has some affiliation with the community in some way,

843
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: shape or form. Right, the waitresses have dated team guys.

844
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: The bar tenders all know every team guy because every

845
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,439
Speaker 1: team guy has a favorite bar they go into every

846
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: day at every single place, or a Virginia Beach police

847
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: officer that was a team guy and knows everybody at

848
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: their right or you know, I mean, it's just it's

849
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: just asinine. It's asinine. What it sounds like to me

850
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: is it sounds like you had the most one of

851
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 1: the most high profile cases in Virginia Beach history and

852
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: they got too you know, capital offence, murder, convictions on

853
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: these two Navy seals gone rogue, and they prosecuted it.

854
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,240
Speaker 1: This fabricated entire case got what they wanted. They all,

855
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: as you said, Aaron, they've all benefited from the success

856
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: of the case in some capacity and their their ambition, right,

857
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: and what it would behoove the State of Virginia, uh,

858
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: the Attorney General, whomever is affiliated with these people, because

859
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: you have to know, everybody knows each other, right, everybody

860
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: knows the das from each county, everybody knows the judges.

861
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: The judges all know each other because they all want

862
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,919
Speaker 1: to climb the hill and get to that Supreme Court billet. Right,

863
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: they all know each other and so to be able to,

864
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: you know, get in there and protect this whole thing.

865
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: So nobody's made into a mockery of just the the

866
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: just blatant disregard for this young man's civic rights. Really,

867
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: I think it's a civil rights violation. I mean, that's

868
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: that's what I hope ends up coming out. You guys

869
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: have a civil rights suit once he gets out of this,

870
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: because this is this is an abomination in my in

871
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: my opinion for sure. All right, let's just let's pivot

872
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: a little bit obviously all of this when when when

873
00:57:55,360 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: the documentary came out, how much attention and did it

874
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 1: get and and you know, how powerful is this for

875
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: you guys right now in terms of of awareness and

876
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: the name of the documentary for everybody is Navy Seal

877
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: Murder framed Target of Opportunity. And you can find that

878
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: on Amazon Prime.

879
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, initially it they had the filmmaker and

880
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 4: some people that were involved, like he was head of Public.

881
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 2: H I forgot what the name of his title was.

882
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 4: We're invited public Safety, We're invited to the the opening

883
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 4: of it at a local theater. You know, he's taken

884
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 4: it to a couple I don't even know what you

885
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 4: call them, production companies the pig Yeah, yeah, you know,

886
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 4: for the most part, you know, a lot this is

887
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 4: the thing. A lot of people haven't heard of it.

888
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 4: It's usually they stumble on the documentary randomly, and and

889
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 4: it's it's it's hard, it's hard to find. Honestly. There

890
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 4: are there's a couple other streaming services now that is

891
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 4: showing it, and and that's also it's on peakle.

892
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a team guy. This happened during me

893
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: I know the story intimately, I didn't even know the

894
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: documentary existed until I found you guys went to the

895
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: site and then found it. Well yeah, yeah, I didn't

896
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: even know it was out there. It's just I couldn't

897
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: believe as I'm watching it last night, going how come

898
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: I I didn't know? And I, you know, I like

899
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: to think I'm pretty aware of the community and what's

900
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: going on. I mean, I've interviewed dozens of seals. You know,

901
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: my best friend Sean Ryan has the biggest, you know,

902
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: one of the biggest podcast in a world. All he

903
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 1: does is interview operate. So I pay attention to the community.

904
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: And I've never even seen it or heard about it.

905
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really honestly, you know, I feel bad that

906
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 4: it hasn't. I mean, I think Dougley, he did the

907
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 4: the documentary, is happy it's out there.

908
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 2: It's proof, it's truth that's out there.

909
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 4: And I think that the more people that here, well,

910
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 4: that's that's our hope, is that more people will here

911
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 4: watch it and get involved and demand justice, because that's

912
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 4: that's what we need. We need a movement of people

913
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 4: and and shining more light on this case. And and

914
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 4: I it's it's it's time.

915
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 1: It's before before we get there. Can you, guys, just

916
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: on an individual level, can you just describe who Dusty

917
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: is in your opinion? Can you describe, through the interaction

918
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: that you've had with him, through everything, just who you

919
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: believe this man is, and just give us, give the

920
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: listeners some context. And Martin, would you go first for me?

921
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I've come to know Dusty in five years,

922
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 3: but I feel like I've known him a lifetime because

923
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 3: that's how he makes you feel when you get to

924
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 3: know him. He's a man who is steadfast in what

925
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 3: he believes. I'd like to say I have a buddy

926
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 3: of mine that has a saying. He says he I

927
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 3: don't know if he's hard headed, but he's damn sure

928
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 3: convinced of a thing or two. And he's convinced of

929
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 3: his innocence. And I'm convinced of his innocence. I know

930
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 3: Dusty to be a compassionate, caring individual. He speaks to

931
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 3: his mother every day. There's not many guys his age

932
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 3: speak to their moms every day. He cares about the

933
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 3: people that he cares about, and he's a mentor to everybody.

934
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 3: I'm also working with somebody here locally but was a

935
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 3: cell mate of his in Bradenton, Florida. The guy was

936
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 3: in and out of prison for twenty five years. He

937
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 3: became a cellmate to Dusty. He was released and he

938
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: has not been back in prison, and he attributes it

939
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 3: to what he gained from spending time with Dusty. That's

940
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 3: just one example of the impact that he has when

941
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 3: you get to know the individual that he is. And

942
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 3: so the longer I spend in support of who Dusty

943
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:44,919
Speaker 3: is and supportive that his circumstance, the more convinced I'm

944
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 3: doing the right thing, not just for him, but for

945
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 3: anybody that comes into contact with him. He's a great

946
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 3: humor being that made a terrible mistake in judgment one evening,

947
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 3: and god knows, I've might a few myself. I wish

948
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 3: i'd been. I'm lucky to not have not been in

949
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 3: those circumstances. So Buck, he's uh, he's a guy worth

950
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 3: fighting for, and so we're going to continue to do that.

951
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 1: Thank you, Martin. I appreciate that. Aaron.

952
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:22,479
Speaker 4: You know, Dusty I would consider my best friend. He

953
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 4: we went through uh the pandemic together. UH lots of

954
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 4: the family members. He lost his his his father and

955
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 4: his grandmother and I lost my bestest dog that I had. Yeah,

956
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 4: and he he has He always seems to say the

957
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 4: right things. The He always seems to have the right

958
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 4: words to say to make you feel better.

959
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 2: Uh.

960
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 4: He has enriched my life. I am you know, anytime

961
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 4: I make, you know, important decisions, he helps me through it.

962
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 4: I am close to his family because of him.

963
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 2: Uh.

964
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 4: The people around him on the inside, Uh, the correctional

965
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 4: officers and other inmates all respect him.

966
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: You know.

967
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 4: I think that's something that's really important for people to understand.

968
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 4: In a place that is full of criminals, Dusty sticks out,

969
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 4: but he's respected by everybody in there. And I think,

970
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 4: you know, partly maybe it's because they know he doesn't belong.

971
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 2: But he he's not showy.

972
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 4: He cares about people that he shares a cell with,

973
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 4: and he cares about.

974
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 2: The people around him, and.

975
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 4: He diffuses a lot of the angst inside.

976
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 2: Currently.

977
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 4: He is a peer mentor and he I mean I

978
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 4: was talking to on the phone just last week and

979
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 4: and there was something was happening. I could hear it,

980
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 4: and it was a correctional officer that was getting a

981
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 4: little bit.

982
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 2: Probably was saying too much.

983
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 4: And Dusty actually diffused that situation so that the the

984
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 4: CEO was able to calm down, and so was the

985
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 4: the inmate. He is a I just wish that you

986
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 4: know people who you know maybe a little bit on

987
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 4: uh one one side, I really wish that everybody could

988
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 4: get a piece and uh to know who he really is.

989
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 2: It's really really.

990
01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 4: Hard to put it in words to describe he's a

991
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 4: man of of.

992
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 2: Emotional intelligence.

993
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 3: Uh uh.

994
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 4: He he is very kind. I get a hand written

995
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 4: or a card every birthday, every Mother's Day, and he

996
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 4: does that for his family.

997
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 2: He cares and I, you know, I wish I could

998
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 2: say more.

999
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 3: No, I think, in the infamous words of Tim McGraw,

1000
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 3: he's the kind of friend a friend would want to have.

1001
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he seems like that. Just the the sentiment in

1002
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 1: both of your your voices and the way you describe

1003
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: it as as nothing short of of impactful to say

1004
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 1: the least. But it's almost miraculous how he's who he

1005
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 1: is has gotten into both of you enough to wanna

1006
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: to take a significant portion out of your own lives

1007
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: in order to help him restore his in some context

1008
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 1: or capacity. Hopefully is freedom here. So what what can

1009
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 1: people do? What? What how can uh my listeners get

1010
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 1: out there and what can they do to support Dusty

1011
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:22,240
Speaker 1: in this quest?

1012
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 4: And you guys well certainly follow follow us on a

1013
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 4: social media We're on x We're on Instagram and on TikTok.

1014
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 4: We have a petition out there on change dot org.

1015
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 4: You can get to it by going to the website

1016
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 4: which is free Dusty dot com. And we also have

1017
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 4: links on all of the social media's social social media

1018
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 4: channels as well. And what are the handles for those

1019
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 4: it is, uh, Navy Seal left behind or at free Dusty.

1020
01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: Turner, Okay, Navy Seal left behind or at free Dusty

1021
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: Turner or just free Dusty.

1022
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 6: At free Dusty Turner Okay, where and then uh if

1023
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 6: they and the the petition is on the website free

1024
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 6: Dusty dot com.

1025
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 1: Correct, yes, correct, Okay.

1026
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,640
Speaker 3: It links it links to it's a change dot or

1027
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 3: kind of links directly to it.

1028
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 4: And I definitely want to put out there. Please do

1029
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 4: not get and Dusty is very concerned about this. Please

1030
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 4: do not get caught in the trap and donating money

1031
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 4: through through them. Uh it does not go to Dusty's

1032
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 4: cause at all. And we probably should set something up

1033
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:42,480
Speaker 4: for for Dusty.

1034
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 1: And absolutely, you guys should definitely set up a give

1035
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:51,680
Speaker 1: Send Go fund for sure, stay away from whatever. The

1036
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:53,640
Speaker 1: other one was that they don't pay out if they

1037
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 1: don't believe in your your politics. U. Yeah, yeah, so

1038
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 1: give send Go I found for for like, this is

1039
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 1: a little bit better, but you know, definitely investigate those. Yeah,

1040
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 1: get that up as soon as possible and and you know,

1041
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 1: probably get that up, you know, before this thing airs

1042
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: for sure, so we can we can drive people to

1043
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 1: support the legal funds because the legal funds are are

1044
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,600
Speaker 1: are just astronomical. I can't even imagine so far what

1045
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 1: is his his poor family has had to spend on

1046
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 1: on his legal defenses. I have several friends that you know,

1047
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,520
Speaker 1: it's broken them because of whether it was child custody,

1048
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: uh stuff which always seems to go the wrong way

1049
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 1: for team guys, it seems. But in other you know,

1050
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:41,639
Speaker 1: criminal cases too, and you know, uh, And that's why

1051
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna definitely reach out to Eddie Gallagher and in

1052
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,839
Speaker 1: his he's got a nonprofit called the Pipe Hitters Foundation,

1053
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 1: and yeah, so I'm gonna reach I'm gonna call Eddie

1054
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 1: as soon as we get off the call. Here we've

1055
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,639
Speaker 1: been talking already. I'm trying to get him on the show,

1056
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,840
Speaker 1: but I'll reach out to them and and we'll just

1057
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 1: draw more attention to this.

1058
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 3: And I think, David, sorry to cut short, just just

1059
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 3: just a quick follow up. We just need it. We

1060
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:18,799
Speaker 3: need people laser focused on his case. We need people

1061
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 3: that care about justice to listen to Dusty's story, and

1062
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 3: then we need them to help join a movement to

1063
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:34,880
Speaker 3: draw attention to it. Uh So it's the petition certainly

1064
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 3: is one one avenue, but we need people to be

1065
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,639
Speaker 3: familiar with it. We want people convicted about how they

1066
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:44,200
Speaker 3: feel about his case to come forward and support support

1067
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 3: what needs to be done here.

1068
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, well, thank you both. Obviously you know Dusty

1069
01:10:56,360 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 1: I bet is overwhelmed by your support. I certainly I am.

1070
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 1: You know what you what you've done here is uh

1071
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 1: and what you're doing is remarkable. I commend both of you.

1072
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 1: It's it's honorable, and I just hope we can generate

1073
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:19,719
Speaker 1: enough of that, like you said, that tipping point of

1074
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 1: of support, and we can have some justice filled for

1075
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 1: for Dusty here soon. So thank you all so much

1076
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 1: for coming on uh and and I look forward to

1077
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:33,800
Speaker 1: the next opportunity that we can have the next talk.

1078
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:36,920
Speaker 1: So God bless you guys, Thank you, thank you, thank you.

1079
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:41,799
Speaker 4: One other thing if I can, absolutely, So, currently Dusty

1080
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 4: is up for parole and his only out is either

1081
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 4: through clemency or parole or getting back into court if

1082
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 4: we have new evidence.

1083
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:56,760
Speaker 2: And so what about can you get a clemency? Is

1084
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,679
Speaker 2: his pardon? It's essentially a pardon, and you know that.

1085
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 1: Can be the President of the United States or the governor.

1086
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 4: No, so it's not a federal case like said, it's

1087
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:10,120
Speaker 4: only it's a Commonwealth.

1088
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 2: Of Virginia case. So only the governor can pardon.

1089
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:17,479
Speaker 4: So if we have once we have an active petition

1090
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,559
Speaker 4: for a pardon or clemency, and the key is going

1091
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 4: to be the governor of Virginia, which is Glenn Youngkin.

1092
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 4: So anybody has connections with Glenn Youngkin?

1093
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:30,280
Speaker 1: Did you hear that? Everybody? If you know somebody or

1094
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: you know somebody in Glenn Younkin's atmosphere or somebody that

1095
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 1: can get to him, don't hesitate. Immediately get in contact,

1096
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: drive them to first to free Dusty dot com, or

1097
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 1: if you want, send him the documentary. That's always a

1098
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 1: compelling thing because I think the way JD laid out

1099
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,559
Speaker 1: all that evidence is really that was the thing for me,

1100
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 1: that was just pushed me over the edge for sure.

1101
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:02,759
Speaker 1: So all right, is any thing else? Aaron Martin, No,

1102
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: thank you, We appreciate it. You're welcome. God bless you

1103
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,240
Speaker 1: guys and your efforts, and God bless Dusty if you

1104
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 1: talk to him for us. Thank you, to you, thank you.