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Speaker 1: On the bel cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start

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Speaker 1: changing it with the beck Del cast. Lay better than

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Speaker 1: I so like a cat that sounds sick. Hello and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the back dol cast. La La la that's scary.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty creepy. Maybe too young. It sounded like a baby.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, I'll speaking of babies. That's relevant. Hey, good transitioningway.

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Speaker 1: This is the Bechtel Cast. My aunt Jamie Loftus, my

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Speaker 1: name is Caitlin Darante, and this is the Becktel cast.

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Speaker 1: La La la La La La La la La. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about La La Land. Just kidding out. I'm not

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Speaker 1: ready to talk about Lalla. I will never be ready

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Speaker 1: to talk about La La Land. Not today. The movie

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Speaker 1: we are talking about the is Rosemary's Baby, and we'll

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Speaker 1: jump into that in in a moment. Before that, we'll

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Speaker 1: just give you a quick overview what the show is.

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Speaker 1: We talk about the portrayal and representation and treatment of

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Speaker 1: women in movies. We use the Bechtel test as a

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Speaker 1: jumping off point to initiate that larger conversation, and the

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Speaker 1: Becktel test is, of course, a media metric created by

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Speaker 1: cartoonist Alison Bechtel that requires that two female identifying characters,

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Speaker 1: they must have names, they must speak to each other

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Speaker 1: in the story that they're in, and that conversation cannot

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Speaker 1: be about men. Right then for us, it's just like

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Speaker 1: a two line exchange. Let's let's demonstrate it, alrighty, Hey, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: Hey Jamie, how did you really feel about the La

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Speaker 1: la laws that I was serving? I felt that, um,

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Speaker 1: I have some notes, Okay, Okay, I'm ready to receive um.

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Speaker 1: I think it just like keep practicing and you'll see improvement. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yes, that was a really compelling I

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Speaker 1: think that's maybe our most compelling. Like there was some

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Speaker 1: tension because I'm not good at receiving criticism. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot going on. Sure, it was a very rich conversation.

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Speaker 1: It was good. It was good at this. Okay, Rosemary's Baby,

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Speaker 1: we should introduce our our guests before we go any further,

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Speaker 1: and asked me too. She is an actor. You know

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Speaker 1: her from many films, including both Suspiria films as well

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Speaker 1: as My Favorite Year, and she has a new podcast. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's a ten episode memoir of her childhood called Winnetta.

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Speaker 1: It is Jessica Harper. Thank you so much for being here,

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Speaker 1: so much for having me. Of course, we're so happy

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Speaker 1: to have you. And we're talking about Rosemary's Baby. So

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Speaker 1: tell us your your history, your relationship with this movie.

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Speaker 1: I first saw it, I think when it came out,

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Speaker 1: which was, oh my gosh, this dates me. I was

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Speaker 1: a fully grown person, and I was trying to remember

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Speaker 1: yesterday how did I react and my reaction to it now,

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Speaker 1: of course having rewatched it yesterday, which was so much fun,

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Speaker 1: But my reaction to it, I believe was so different

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Speaker 1: to what it was because in sixty eight, prefeminism, you'd

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Speaker 1: have a very different take on this movie. So, um,

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Speaker 1: in sixty eight when I first saw it, I was

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Speaker 1: just simply horrified, and yesterday I was horrified. With a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of interesting side notes, which I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 1: get into indeed, But um, it's a fabulous movie. It

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Speaker 1: is a well crafted, really well crafted, so well written.

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Speaker 1: The direct is incredible, even though there are some people

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Speaker 1: who might not like the director anymore. Well, you will

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Speaker 1: talk about that as well. Pretty some strong cases. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my history is I saw it for the first time

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Speaker 1: in college as a as a young film buff, and

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Speaker 1: so that was probably around fourteen years ago, and I

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Speaker 1: think I only saw it that once before revisiting it

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Speaker 1: for the podcast. But I remember thinking, I remember really

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Speaker 1: liking it because as far as horror films go, I

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Speaker 1: not such a huge fan of slashers, but I love

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Speaker 1: anything that has to do with the occult and like

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Speaker 1: kind of like satanic stuff. I don't know why I

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Speaker 1: never revisited it, but yeah, I just I really enjoyed it,

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Speaker 1: but it was just that one time that I had

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Speaker 1: seen it. What about You, Jamie, I had not seen

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Speaker 1: this movie before. It's and it's like one of those

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Speaker 1: movies that has been you know, recommended to this show

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Speaker 1: and to me specifically for years. But I think it's

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Speaker 1: just I think by the time I was aware of

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Speaker 1: this movie, I was also aware of all the Polanski stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of avoided it for that reason, which

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Speaker 1: is like, I mean, it's so it's so weird because

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Speaker 1: going into this movie, I was almost like, I kind

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Speaker 1: of hope I don't like it, because then it will

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Speaker 1: be a lot easier to have the I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: always easy to have an art artist discussion if you

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Speaker 1: don't like the art anyways, and you're like, oh, well

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Speaker 1: it sucks and he and he sucks. Usually he uh sucks,

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Speaker 1: and so put it all in the trash. But it

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Speaker 1: was like, I mean, this was like a challenging watch

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways because I did there's a

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Speaker 1: lot about this movie to love it. I had been

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Speaker 1: avoiding it because I was aware of all of the

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Speaker 1: allegations before, and so I just I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just try to navigate around. There's a million movies

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Speaker 1: you can watch anything. But yeah, I enjoyed it, and

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Speaker 1: I feel and I feel weird. I know, I have

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Speaker 1: such complicated feelings. Usually, like before we even start the episode,

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Speaker 1: I have a fairly good idea of like what nipple

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Speaker 1: rating I'm going to give it, I have no idea,

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Speaker 1: Like I think it's going to take, like whatever discussion

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Speaker 1: we have to, we're going to have to We're going

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Speaker 1: to have to dig really deep because I just I

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Speaker 1: feel very conflicted and challenged by this movie. And this

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Speaker 1: is a yeah, and it's aligning, and Jessica, you were

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Speaker 1: starting to get at it. I think that there's like,

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Speaker 1: so much context to this movie that's important to how

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Speaker 1: you interpret it. And it's like, I can't imagine seeing

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Speaker 1: this movie ten years ago. Like I it's yeah, because

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Speaker 1: when I talked for the first time, if anyone was

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Speaker 1: talking about Roman Plansky and his horrific crimes, I wasn't

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Speaker 1: aware of it. I didn't really know. It was years

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Speaker 1: later until I started hearing things about that. So what

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Speaker 1: year was that? That was much much later. I was

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Speaker 1: just going to say the Sharon Tate murders and all

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Speaker 1: was here. It's the year after the murders. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: the big sympathy for Roman hadn't really kicked in yet

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Speaker 1: when this came out. If you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: right right, there was a whole big, poor Roman era,

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Speaker 1: right right, which when morphed into something entirely new, much lighter. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Tape murders were in nineteen sixty nine, and then like

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Speaker 1: his allegations start I think in the late seventies. That

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Speaker 1: sounds right, and then he is still technically I don't

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Speaker 1: know what the word is for what he's He can't

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Speaker 1: come back to this country without getting or arrested because

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Speaker 1: he admitted that he committed and we'll talk about somewhere.

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Speaker 1: There's so much okay, so with how much further too,

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Speaker 1: I'll get through the recap as quickly as possible. Feel

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Speaker 1: free away in at any point in the recap because

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Speaker 1: this movie is crazy. It's crazy, and it's long. Um okay.

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Speaker 1: So we are introduced to a married couple. Rosemary that's me,

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Speaker 1: a Pharaoh's character, and guy that's John Cassavetti. Jo hot,

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Speaker 1: so hot, My god, it's upsetting. I mainly learned about

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Speaker 1: him a bitch. It's like, how long did it? Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll get it. How long did it take him to

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Speaker 1: sell that first baby to the Like twenty seconds? He

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Speaker 1: was like so fast? Yeah, okay, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

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Speaker 1: I mainly knew about John Cassavetti's through like film school,

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Speaker 1: like textbook stuff and and all of his directorial work.

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Speaker 1: And then I was like, wait, no one told me

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Speaker 1: he was hot. Unfortunately, he is hot, so hot. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So they're looking for an apartment together to move into

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Speaker 1: in New York City. Ever heard of it. They're looking

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Speaker 1: at this one giant apartment. I don't know how they

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Speaker 1: end up affording it because he is a struggling actor

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Speaker 1: and she is a homemaker, Like, who can live in

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Speaker 1: it's the Dakota, which is overlooking. Yeah, so's this like

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Speaker 1: enormous apartment icon they can afford it somehow, Even before

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Speaker 1: they get mixed up with you. There was a little

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Speaker 1: suspension of disbelief there. Maybe just rent on haunted apartments

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Speaker 1: is really low. Maybe. So one of the first things

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Speaker 1: I noticed about this apartment is that there is a

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Speaker 1: closet that's blocked by a large piece of furniture, and

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Speaker 1: that will become important later, believe it or not. And

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Speaker 1: Rosemary notices too. Yes, she's she's so active in the movie.

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Speaker 1: I was always I was so ready to be like plankey,

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Speaker 1: she's so yeah. So then a friend of There's Hutch

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Speaker 1: tells them that this building that they're moving into, called

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Speaker 1: the Bramford, had a bunch of weird shit happened in it.

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Speaker 1: There were sisters who cooked and eight children. There was

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Speaker 1: a guy who practiced witchcraft and who have claimed to

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Speaker 1: have conjured up the devil there. So they're like, whatever,

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Speaker 1: we'll move in anyway, happens every time you move somewhere.

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Speaker 1: It's like there's every every place has its statue, everybody

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Speaker 1: has some child eaters in it. So they move in

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Speaker 1: and then Rosemary meets one of her neighbors, Terry, and

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Speaker 1: one night, poor Terry Terry Y. Yeah, they have this

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Speaker 1: great spoiler alert Bechtel test passing huge in the laundry room.

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Speaker 1: Even if it was about doing laundry, let's not forget

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Speaker 1: that still domestic overte Y Terry. It was I was

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Speaker 1: in the middle. I was like googling stuff in real

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Speaker 1: time as I was watching, and I was like in

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Speaker 1: the middle of looking up Terry and then can you

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Speaker 1: find out what happens to Terry? And the person that

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Speaker 1: Rosemary mistakes her for actress and model? Name was it Vicky?

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Speaker 1: It was some anyway, that's actually who plays that character.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's funny. I forget the name. So this isn't

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Speaker 1: a good story. But she's like, hey, aren't you like, oh,

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Speaker 1: thank you super producer Sophie. She's like, aren't you Victoria

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Speaker 1: Vettry And she's like, no, I'm not. But guess what

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Speaker 1: Victoria Victory plays that part. There's so many little credited

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Speaker 1: as a different a different name. But anyway, A fun

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Speaker 1: fact about that is that I was like when I

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Speaker 1: saw her in the game, I was like oh, I

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Speaker 1: recognize her from something. She was a playmate Model of

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Speaker 1: the Year under a different name, um, the year this

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Speaker 1: movie came out, which like a lot of playmates would

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Speaker 1: do back in the day, is like use different names, um.

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Speaker 1: But she was Angela Dorian, same lady right on wild Okay,

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Speaker 1: r I p Terry do all kinds of snaky references

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Speaker 1: and yeah, tell me about it, um. And then so

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Speaker 1: after they've moved in, Rosemary and Guy here some like

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Speaker 1: strange chanting coming from next door. And then a short

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Speaker 1: time later, Terry commits suicide by jumping out of a window.

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Speaker 1: And she had said, oh, I live with this older couple,

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Speaker 1: the Cast of Vets, which is confusing because John cast

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Speaker 1: sa Vettius is in this movie and their name is

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Speaker 1: the cast of it. Anyway, She's like, yeah, they were

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Speaker 1: a family to me. They brought me in. And then

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Speaker 1: she commits suicide. So something is amiss here. And then

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Speaker 1: they meet this couple Roman, and she commenced, he said,

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Speaker 1: we don't really know what happened. We don't know. We

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Speaker 1: never we have her suspicions, though, suicide not being one

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Speaker 1: of them. And she has this necklace with a charm

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Speaker 1: on it stace stinky necklace. I love the detail that

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Speaker 1: the necklace stunk. Yeah, especially when that receptionist at the

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Speaker 1: end is just like, yeah, everyone in this office smells crazy,

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Speaker 1: like you're just like So then they meet Roman in

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Speaker 1: Many cast of It and can I just entergect One thing?

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Speaker 1: So in this little babble, this jewel that's hanging around

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Speaker 1: her neck. Inside it is a route called Tannis Root. Yes,

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Speaker 1: which is very important because later Rosemary holds this thing

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Speaker 1: up to the mirror and she says, Tannis anyone, which

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Speaker 1: is one of my favorite lines in the movie. She

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Speaker 1: she talks to herself a lot in this movie. I

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Speaker 1: know I'll either her, It's either her Minny and I

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Speaker 1: mean I'd pick me over many. Who can she trust?

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Speaker 1: She can't trust anyone, but I mean Ruth Gordon and

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Speaker 1: she's so great. Yes. So um, they made the Neighbors

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Speaker 1: and Rosemary and Guy go over to dinner at the

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Speaker 1: cast of Vettes and Guy is like reluctant at first,

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Speaker 1: but then they start hanging out with them more and

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Speaker 1: more and the castavettes are getting a little clingy. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Guy is like, Rosemary, let's have a baby, and then

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Speaker 1: she's very excited because she wanted that, and then she's

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Speaker 1: about apparently, yeah, it seems to be her one the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. I was like, we don't know a lot

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Speaker 1: about her. I don't know to be a mother so interesting.

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Speaker 1: Why is that? Maybe because it was written by men. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six, by the way, right now, So

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Speaker 1: the more time they spend with the cast of vettes,

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Speaker 1: the more weird things are happening. Like guy who is

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Speaker 1: an actor and who was up for a part gets

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Speaker 1: it because the other guy who was up for that

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Speaker 1: part suddenly goes blind. And then many brings over this

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Speaker 1: dessert which she calls chocolate mouse, which is just moose,

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Speaker 1: and it makes Rosemary all loozy and she notices this

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Speaker 1: like chalky undertaste, and then she eats a little bit

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Speaker 1: but not all of it, but then she passes out anyway,

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Speaker 1: presumably from having eaten this. And then there's this dreamlike

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Speaker 1: sequence in which she is surrounded by naked people who

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Speaker 1: are chanting and that she they're tying her to a bed,

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Speaker 1: and her husband guy or is there, and the cast

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Speaker 1: of vettes are there and they're all participating in what

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Speaker 1: seems like some sort of demonic ritual. They're nude, but

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Speaker 1: they're also talking to each other. It's like it was

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Speaker 1: like is this chill or not? Like I know it's

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Speaker 1: not chill, but they were all just like standing in

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Speaker 1: the nude, like, hey, is she awake? And then it's

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Speaker 1: very casual, very chill, and then a demon looking guy

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Speaker 1: rapes Rosemary. Yes, and then she wakes up. She's covered

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Speaker 1: in scratches, and then Guy is like, like, I happen

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Speaker 1: to watch the scene like four or five times. It

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Speaker 1: is we have to. We will spend a lot of

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Speaker 1: time in packing this scene, I'm sure. But basically he's like,

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Speaker 1: I had sex with you last night while you were sleeping.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to miss baby night. And she was

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Speaker 1: like oh and then no problem. Marital rape is legal

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Speaker 1: in New York. Okay, yeah, so yeah, well we'll spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time on packing that um. And then

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Speaker 1: Rosemary goes to a doctor, doctor Hill, and finds out

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Speaker 1: that she's pregnant, and then Guy insists on telling the

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Speaker 1: Castavettes right away. It's like the first thing he does,

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Speaker 1: and then they recommend it. She see a different obstetrician, Dr.

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Speaker 1: Sapristein and then she's having a lot of pain with

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Speaker 1: her pregnancy, she's losing weight. Everyone keeps telling her that

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Speaker 1: she looks like shit. Everyone keeps telling her she looks

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Speaker 1: like everybody's look like chalk, you look like death warmed

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Speaker 1: at one after the next. So it's and and it's

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Speaker 1: like the one and I'm sure what we'll get to

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Speaker 1: this too, but like the one choice that she makes

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Speaker 1: without consulting anybody as her hair cut, and everyone is

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Speaker 1: so mean to everyone the haircut we have to that's

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Speaker 1: another unpacking about the haircut, Like what the one? The one,

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Speaker 1: but it's like the one thing she does without checking

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Speaker 1: him with anyone, and everyone's like yeah, even her friend,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So then Hudge comes back and

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Speaker 1: he wants to talk to Rosemary, but he does hate

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Speaker 1: her haircut and he comments on her weight a lot.

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Speaker 1: Was just to like him, right, But then when she

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Speaker 1: goes to meet up with him because he feels that

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Speaker 1: something's wrong with this situation, And when she goes to

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Speaker 1: meet up with him, she discovers that he has suddenly

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Speaker 1: fallen into a coma. And then her pains are getting

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Speaker 1: worse and she wants less and less to do with

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Speaker 1: the cast of Vets, and she doesn't want to go

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Speaker 1: to dr Sapristine anymore. She stops drinking the herbal drink

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Speaker 1: that Minie has been making her and then Guy does

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Speaker 1: not react well to this. He is furious. And then

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Speaker 1: at a party that she insists on throwing and insist

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Speaker 1: on not inviting the cast of ITTs to or the

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Speaker 1: Sapristines are like anyone, her friends like give her a

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Speaker 1: regular drink, and then the pain goes away. It's unclear

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Speaker 1: exactly what causes the pain to go away, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's witchcraft for not sure, we don't know, but

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Speaker 1: it goes away because she's threatening like I'm never going

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Speaker 1: to go to sapristine again. And then suddenly the pain

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Speaker 1: vanishes and we get a brief scene with her and

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Speaker 1: her friends, which I was waiting for the whole time,

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Speaker 1: like where are her friends? She didn't seem to have

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Speaker 1: any best use anywhere, right, And all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: there they are at the party. There they are. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: what did we learn what their names were? But either way,

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Speaker 1: there's a good scene. It's like they're immediately responsive to

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Speaker 1: her pain. They're immediately like, no, this doesn't sound like

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Speaker 1: what should be happening. They make sure Guy stays out

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Speaker 1: of the room, and that interaction empowers Rosemary a little

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Speaker 1: bit to stand up to Guy, who immediately is like,

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Speaker 1: you're never going to see your friend the end, sorry,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, and calls them dumb bitches and I'm

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Speaker 1: at icon guy. He is literally guy, And then we

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Speaker 1: cut immediately to a few months later, and now she

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Speaker 1: is gregnant as Hell's thriving and yeah, she's they're making

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Speaker 1: preparations for the baby. They're making this nursery and everything.

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Speaker 1: And then her friend Hutch dies and his friend gives

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Speaker 1: Rosemary a book that Hutch wanted her to have called

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Speaker 1: All of Them, which is Ye. And then Rosemary has

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Speaker 1: told that the name is an anagram, and she figures

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Speaker 1: out that it's not the name of the book, but

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Speaker 1: it's the name of someone in the book, Stephen Marcato.

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Speaker 1: And anagrams too, Roman Castavet, why are you criminals got

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Speaker 1: to keep using that? Criminals should just stop doing anagrams,

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Speaker 1: just makeup. It's so interesting too, because, as you pointed out,

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Speaker 1: his last name is very close to Cassavetties, and that's

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00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,399
Speaker 1: obviously a thing they thought and laughed about before they

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Speaker 1: shot the movie, right and then you know which came first,

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Speaker 1: the name or the anagram. So they go, Okay, the

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Speaker 1: title is going to be this, so let's see, how

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00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 1: can we wait here? And there's so many name games

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Speaker 1: in this thing. The Roman, I mean, the bad guy

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00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 1: next door is named Roman, of course, and which can

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Speaker 1: play into this whole thing about what happened later in

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Speaker 1: the seventies and how the devil man. And and then

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Speaker 1: of course, as you said, her husband's name is guy

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Speaker 1: was totally generic word for dude, right, And she's Rosemary,

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00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 1: like the virgin Mary. Oh my god, it goes on

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Speaker 1: and on. Rosemary is also an herb. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of herbs, herbs, stinky herb. Also, this is a great

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Speaker 1: time to point out that my name, Caitlin Darante anagrams

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00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,159
Speaker 1: to a number of things. You've got Latin d answer

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Speaker 1: U T I that we've got um cat turd in line,

339
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 1: you've got there's there's a bunch. Well, I'm gonna go

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00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,879
Speaker 1: do anagram myself. Fun. It's really fun anyway. So in

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Speaker 1: the book, she learns that Romans father was a witch

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Speaker 1: who performs rituals and uses like baby's blood because it's

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Speaker 1: the most powerful blood. To use. Sure. So Rosemary tells

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Speaker 1: Guy about all this and then she's like, I never

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Speaker 1: want to see the cast of Its again. My baby

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Speaker 1: is in danger. We're gonna move out. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: she goes to Dr Sapristein and tells him about all

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Speaker 1: of this, and he tells her that Roman is ill

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Speaker 1: and then he doesn't have long to live and she's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: well maybe this will solve my problems. Uh if they

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00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 1: he just dies and is out of the picture. So

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00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: Guy and Rosemary see the cast of vets off because

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Speaker 1: they're going to be traveling to all these different places

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Speaker 1: because he's a world traveler. And then Guy throws out

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Speaker 1: the book that Hutch gave Rosemary. Um, So she goes

356
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: and gets more books about witchcraft and sort of confirms

357
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 1: suspicion that she had that the coven was responsible for

358
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 1: the other actor being blinded. She basically hacks pre computers

359
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: which is going to a bookstore just doing some research.

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Speaker 1: Major hacking scene, definitely. So she realizes things are really

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Speaker 1: a muck here and she packs up her things and

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00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 1: she goes see Dr Sapristein again, but then she realizes

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00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: that he's on in on it. Too because of this

364
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 1: thing herb. He's got the Tannis to Tannis anyone feminist icon,

365
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: the receptionist. He's just like, you smell bad, just like

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Speaker 1: my boss, Like it doesn't say that when you're walking.

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00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: I was like, well, maybe a little unprofessional, but helpful

368
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: to the plot. So she runs out and she goes

369
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: back to Dr Hill and tells him everything, like she

370
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 1: thinks the guy has promised the coven her baby in

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00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: exchange for his success as an actor. And then it

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00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 1: seems like Dr Hill is going to help, but instead

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Speaker 1: he calls guy and Dr Sapristein and then they come

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00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 1: and get her. She's hysterical, right, yeah. They take her

375
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Speaker 1: back home and then she tries to get away, but

376
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. She goes into labor and then Sapristeine

377
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: gives her sedative and she passes out. She wakes up,

378
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 1: the baby has been born. She's like, where's my baby.

379
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Speaker 1: They're like, the baby died, sorry, and she knows that

380
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 1: they're lying, but you can hear a baby in the

381
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: other room. I was like, do you guys not have

382
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: a second location to go to? Not a full proof plan?

383
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: And then guys are like, you have the pre part

384
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: of the Crazies got so yeah. She hears the baby crying,

385
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: and then she remembers that closet that the big piece

386
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: of furniture was in front of. She's like, let me there,

387
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,959
Speaker 1: you go. She goes into it and she realizes that

388
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: there is a door behind this, like I guess partition

389
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And she goes into this creepy apartment

390
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: and the coven is there, including Guy and the cast

391
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: of vets and a satanic bassinet. It's all black. That

392
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: must have been fun for the art director Richard Silbert,

393
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: by the way, incredible. And then there's a baby in

394
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: the cradle. She looks into it and we see her

395
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: horrified reaction and she's like, what have you done to

396
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: its eyes? And then Roman is who is not dead,

397
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: by the way, and who is not traveling, and he's

398
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: like he has his father's eyes. Satan is the father,

399
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: not Guy. Satan chose you because you're the cutest woman

400
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 1: in New York. That's not everyone that people should say

401
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: that on dinner day. Satan chose you. You're the most

402
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: Jovan girl in Los Angeles, apparently the most clueless too.

403
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: And then guys like the guy at the end is

404
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: very I mean, I guess if we're going like a

405
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: reverse Nativity deal. He liked. Joseph is pretty thrilled to

406
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: be cooked by a higher power. Yeah, he's like, yeah,

407
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: it's not my baby. He just didn't care nearly enough,

408
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: not hardly at all. Yeah, just take a take a

409
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: close guy. We can make more babies. Love to Beverly Hills.

410
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: Have babies there, Oh yeah. And then they're chanting hell

411
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: Satan and then Roman is like, hey, Rosemary, why don't

412
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: you be a mother to this baby. At first she's like,

413
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: oh no, but then she's like okay, and that is

414
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 1: the end of the movie. Yes, don't, don't, don't don't.

415
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right

416
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: back to discuss and we are back. I mean, where

417
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: to begin. I don't know. There's there's so we've we've

418
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: all three of this have established that we enjoy the

419
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: movie and admire the crafty and we just just say

420
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 1: one thing. The music Christoph Komada, I'm sure I'm pronouncing

421
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: that totally wrong. The music, the score is incredible, and

422
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: I guess going into the behind the scenes lore surrounding

423
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: this movie, he died a pretty brutal death less than

424
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: a year after this movie came out, the composer, there's

425
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 1: a lot of like strange stuff. What's one of those

426
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: one of those? Well, yeah, I mean so this is,

427
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, a highly regarded prestige horror, psychological thriller. Like

428
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 1: in two thousand fourteen, it was selected for preservation in

429
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: the National Film Registry by the Library of Congress. It's

430
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: still shown in theaters. Like, trying to reboot it with

431
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: ZOEI Saldana didn't work out. Also, should we just tackle

432
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: the art versus artists right at the top and then

433
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: we can talk about the characters, because I feel like

434
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: if we don't talk about it now, it will just

435
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: haunt the rest of the conversation. In terms of Roman Plansky,

436
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: the director of this film and the writer of the film, Yes,

437
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: he wrote and directed it, and it was adapted from

438
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: a novel written by our eleven who will get to

439
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know anything about him, so I'm

440
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: interested to learn about that. So Roman Polanski, he had

441
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: a troubled past. You know, he was a Holocaust survivor.

442
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: His parents were taken in raids during the Holocaust. A

443
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: year after this movie comes out the Manson family brittlely

444
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: murders his wife, Sharon Tate and some of his friends.

445
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: And yes, definitely went through some ship, but it is

446
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: no excuse for what he did, which is he statutory

447
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: raped a lot of underage girls and he admitted it

448
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: at least convicted in eight I believe, of statutory rape. Yeah,

449
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: seventy eight he was arrested and charged with drugging and

450
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: raping a thirteen year old girl. Uh. And then a

451
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: short time later he fled to Paris after learning the

452
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: judge planned to imprison him other than just give him

453
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: some other lesser punishment. But um so, he's been a

454
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: fugitive for about forty years, several decades, and in that

455
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: time he has one another Oscar. Is that correct? If

456
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: he won for the pianisto um so, that's fun. Um. Also,

457
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: since that time, several other women have come forward saying

458
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: that he raped them while they were underage. So good lord.

459
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: He's also been celebrated in the recent years in Europe

460
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: as well. I mean, he doesn't stop getting awards. No,

461
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: he doesn't stop working. I mean it seems like he's

462
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: very infrequently stopped working at all. Um he Yeah, he

463
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: did win an Academy Award in two thousand and two

464
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: UM for the pianist. Like he has continued to work,

465
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: he just can't come back to the United States. And

466
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't until last year that, like post me too,

467
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: that he was finally room moved from the Academy. UM.

468
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: But that's not even to say that that's a permanent thing.

469
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, yeah, as as so many people who

470
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: perpetrate stuff like this get is just a brief time out.

471
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the fact that the worst thing that

472
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: has happened as a result of all of this is

473
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: that he couldn't be in the Academy forty years after

474
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: being convicted and confessing a crime like that is just absurd.

475
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: La la la. Yeah. His punishment is basically that he

476
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: still gets to keep working and living in Europe and

477
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: he lives in Paris. It's it's just it's yeah, it's

478
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: like one of the more upsetting examples in an industry

479
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: that is, you know, littered with them. Can I also

480
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: read a quote of his that I found, Oh sure,

481
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's the same way. Yeah, he is

482
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: speaking to Clive James this in four he says, women

483
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: these days where a virtual armor, tights, panties, blue jeans,

484
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: belt as though they were afraid of constant aggression. There

485
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: must be something psychological at the bottom of it. I've

486
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: got another quote from him from when he's seventy nine.

487
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: He said, the pill has changed greatly the women of

488
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: our times. It masculinizes her, it chases away the romance

489
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: from our lives. And then he says, um trying to

490
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: level genders as quote idiotic. It's crazy that he made

491
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: this movie if that is how he feels. Yeah, this

492
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: is code of ethics, because I mean, I think there

493
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: are a few different reads of this movie, but largely

494
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: this is a story about a woman who's been emotionally,

495
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: psychologically and sexually abused and who is trying to regain

496
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: agency over her body and her pregnancy in her life. Right,

497
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: she doesn't do it successfully, but also again having as

498
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: I said, being the person in the road here was

499
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: the ground up in sixties six she was, and it

500
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: really was. I'm not pre feminist entirely. Obviously feminists lived

501
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: long before that, but but before it became you know,

502
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: before say Miss magazine was published, which was my aha moment.

503
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I remember the day I read the first

504
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: issue of Miss magazine, and I'm sitting in the steps

505
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: outside my apartment I reading it, and I got so angry.

506
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: I went into a fury, and I've never stopped the

507
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: fury anyway. It was but sixty six it was still like,

508
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: as I said, I saw the movie, and that woman

509
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: looked like people I actually kind of knew, like she

510
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: had no ambition, no career, no employment, no interest in

511
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: any such thing. And by the way, as we pointed out, no,

512
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: not like besties. I mean, she didn't even She had

513
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: nothing except this craving to have a baby, which sets

514
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: you up for her willingness to ex up this poor

515
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: little devil baby. But it works for the story. But

516
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: it's just you know, again, looking at it now versus

517
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: looking at sixty Oh, that reminds me of my friend Heather.

518
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: Now you look at it and go, I don't know

519
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: anybody like that. This is the sane and you know,

520
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: he takes the book away from her and he's he's

521
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: just so dominating and she's yes, sir, yes, sir yes,

522
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: or to her husband. There's a scene where he wakes

523
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: her up and he's like, it's nine o'clock. He doesn't say,

524
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: make me breakfast, but that's what's applies. Yeah, She's like

525
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: go eat out and he's like like hell I will,

526
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: so like, yeah, she is just like this very traditional

527
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: like homemaker housewife type and women who want to be mothers,

528
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: women who are homemakers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with

529
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: that if that is the life they choose. The fact

530
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: that she has given no other characteristics or interests or

531
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: it's just hires. It's treated as a given and that's yeah.

532
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: And she doesn't even have any hobbies. So in a way,

533
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: she's kind of i mean really kind of one dimensional, right,

534
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, you'd think there would be some something. Everything

535
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: we see her do is is very domestic. I mean

536
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: she's preparing the nursery, she's like redecorating the house and

537
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And again those things, those activities are

538
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: all fine to do. But the fact that we don't

539
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: see her and it's frustrating because I think that, like

540
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: the story at so many times indicates that she is

541
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: very smart and very capable because she, you know, sees

542
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: through this huge ruse and she like I'm listed out

543
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: all the different times that she clocks things and notices

544
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: things that other people don't and then follows up on

545
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: it later and tries to get more information. It seems

546
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: like with this character that the big hurdle for her

547
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: is that she wants to figure out what's going on,

548
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: but she wants to do it in a way that's

549
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: polite and doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. And so at the time,

550
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: I was just like Rosemary. Now like where after she

551
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: figures out right away it when she's given the chocolate

552
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: moose by Many and she's like, this tastes wrong, like

553
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: something is You're they're not poisoning me correctly, and you know,

554
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: guy starts to gaslight her immediately. It's like it's always

555
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: something like you gotta just eat it whatever, And she

556
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: goes back the next morning after she is raped and

557
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: knows that, but she goes back to Many and brings

558
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: back the dishes and it's like, thank you, I really

559
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: liked it. It It was really good. And it's like she's

560
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: part of what really like broke my heart about her

561
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: character is that she always knows that something is wrong,

562
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: and she's always aware of her own pain but is

563
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: allowing herself to be talked out of it because she

564
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: doesn't want to hurt other people. Or because she's like

565
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: doubting her own because because women are conditioned to be

566
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: accommodating and polite and and all that. And I mean,

567
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: we can't ignore the cultural and historical time that this

568
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: comes out in this movie. That's that it's set in.

569
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's set in sixty into sixty six, and

570
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, second wave feminism was kind of jeering up

571
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: starting Yeah, yeah, as you said, Jessica, like, she's not

572
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: unlike a lot of women of this time. So we

573
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 1: me watching it now, I found myself very frustrated by

574
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: her just constant accommodation of people, and even when she

575
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: senses that people are doing wrong by her, she's still like, well,

576
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 1: I don't want to offend any Constantly everybody is doing

577
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: things wrong, at the minimum annoying her and at the

578
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: maximum raping her. Yeah, but then we also see, I

579
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: don't know, there are so many parts of this movie

580
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 1: that even when I was frustrated with Rosemary, I felt like,

581
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: in most cases, the story explains to you why this

582
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 1: is her reaction, Because the times that she does say something,

583
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 1: her situation gets worse almost right away. Where Like when

584
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 1: she does assert herself and she's like, I'm throwing this party.

585
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: Guess what, I have friends, they're coming over, Scary people

586
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: are invited. Um and like you know, makes that happen.

587
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: And then when she speaks up for herself right after

588
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: the consequences, she's cut off from access to her friends

589
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't know, they're like seeing her

590
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 1: try to accomplish something and then be immediately set two

591
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: steps backwards by like the oppositional forces, like I don't

592
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: I worked for me story wise, and it made me

593
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: really sad. Yeah. And then another example that is when

594
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: she's saying that she's no longer going to see Dr.

595
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: Sapristein anymore, the like this pain that she's been having

596
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: for months now is not going away, like something is wrong,

597
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: and she's saying, I'm not going to drink the herbal

598
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: drink Mick flurry. It's like vanilla milkshake. I kind of like,

599
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: I was like, damn drinking. And then the husband is

600
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: so mean not getting a second opinion. I mean, it's

601
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: so she will. We see her stand up for herself

602
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: different times, and then she's shot down, and then in

603
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: the next scene we see her drinking the drink again.

604
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: So it kind of makes for reasons that I don't

605
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: think the narrative quite needs in like changing her mind,

606
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: and it might have to do with all of this

607
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: emotional and psychological abuse that she is undergoing by everyone

608
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 1: around her. I remember when I first learned about just

609
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: the concept of gas lighting, and like first hearing that

610
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: term and learning what it was, I remember thinking to myself, Oh,

611
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: like what Rosemary's husband does to her in that movie,

612
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: like that connection because I was like, oh, that is

613
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: exactly what gaslighting is. That was like kind of my

614
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: frame of reference for that. But like, like we already

615
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: kind of touched on. There's so many times where he

616
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: is just like textbook abuse of behavior in terms of

617
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, gaslighting her, Like no, that chocolate mouse doesn't

618
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: have chalky undertaste, just eat it and like so much.

619
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: But it's also you see that so much in modern

620
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: movies too. I mean the movie doesn't look like a

621
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: dated movie unfortunately, really, you know, you see I think

622
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: it was the was it The Shape of Water with

623
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: Octovia Spencer Just that just popped in my mind about

624
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 1: her abuse of the relationships for example, you do see

625
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: these all the time. Unfortunately, still the submissive woman on

626
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: the abusive husband the chocolate the chocolate mouse scene while

627
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: we're on it. Yeah, that that was a scene that

628
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: felt like pretty true to the marital rape scene just

629
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: blew my mind on a number of people. But the

630
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 1: moose scene, it was like a little bit different of

631
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: you can sort of see the like mechanics of what

632
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: he's doing, but I also sort of understood why. It's like,

633
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to have this conflict with this person

634
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 1: I have to be with no matter what, because that's

635
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: how she viewed her life, and like, what is what

636
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: are my options? What is it easier to do? I

637
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I've been in relationships like that

638
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: where you're picking your battles kind of exactly where you're like,

639
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: finally the fucking moose like and that's sort of what

640
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: she ends up saying because he finds, I think, in

641
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 1: the space of that scene three different ways to blame

642
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: it on her, where he's like, nothing's good enough for you.

643
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: Why are you being mean? She worked on that all day,

644
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: You're being rude, and like, you know, like and she

645
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: pushes back a couple of times. It's not like immediately

646
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: she folds. She's like, it's gross, it tastes weird. I

647
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: think the Ruth Gordon is weird fair um. But then

648
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: eventually when he starts to raise his voice, she is

649
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: like final fucking eat it, which is like stuff, I

650
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: I know that I have done. It's I recognize that

651
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: in my parents marriage. Like that scene hit for me

652
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: especially because it felt normal in in a weird way.

653
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: Well yeah, exactly. I mean in the movie, of course,

654
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: he has an agenda behind this, which says he wants

655
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: to provide the world with this devil baby and because

656
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: it helps his career, he'll become a movie start tomorrow,

657
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: and so he's invested in her reading the Damn Moose.

658
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: But in real life, these things happen all the time,

659
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: and the man has no other agenda except to keep

660
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 1: his wife submissive. Of course, so it's just an act

661
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: of random violence abuse. And so that's why it seems

662
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: it's the scene seems normal in the movie. It's, as

663
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: I say, it's a whole other story. But but nonetheless

664
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: it's a sad reflection of all kinds of things that

665
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 1: happen like that all the time. And it's like as

666
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: a viewer, it's almost like easier and like more easy

667
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: to understand that someone would do that to you because

668
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: they're working for the devil exactly other than that is

669
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: just what they think is okay to treat Somewhere in fact,

670
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: you almost I mean, as a movie watcher, you go, oh, well,

671
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: I see he's doing that because he wants so you know,

672
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: it's not at least you say, I see he's got

673
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: a motivation rather than just random misogyny. You know, well,

674
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think that. Like in the scene

675
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: where they first go to dinner at the cast of

676
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: Vets Roman is like complimenting guys, I'm oh, you did

677
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: all this great hand gesture and you're working this play

678
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: was so and it's just like, oh, he got complimented

679
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: one time, and now he's going to sell his baby

680
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: to the devil. He literally goes and she goes into

681
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: the kitchen with many for a minute, and literally by

682
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: the time they come back two minutes later, this decision

683
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: has been Yeah, okay, sure, bastard, you lazy bastard. My

684
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: people will get to your people. We'll take care of this.

685
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I know, it's just like it also makes

686
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: you kind of want like this is an indication that

687
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: this guy had a serious character of law to say

688
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: the lazy wouldn't she have picked up on us at

689
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: some point in their marriage? Kept thinking that it takes

690
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: her so long to figure and again, I mean, but

691
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: their relationships seems to change pretty abruptly in the movie too,

692
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: Like they're in the first couple of scenes, they seemed

693
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: to be generally getting along. She's like, like, she even

694
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: seems it's it almost seems like she's like, let's make

695
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: love even yeah, Like she she's like, I want to funk.

696
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: He's like okay, Like it's it started to seem like, oh,

697
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: maybe this is a I did not know anything about

698
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: this movie. It's like they're kind of a nice couple, right, well,

699
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 1: seems that way at first. Then he turns in yeah,

700
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: but see, like why why did it take this long

701
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: for them for her to figure out? Especially with the

702
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: doctor Sapperstein thing, it takes her so long to realize

703
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: that he's on it because he's also doing like classic

704
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: like abuse of things, isolating her from her friend, Like

705
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: she's like, don't talk to your friends about their pregnancy,

706
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: don't read books. He literally don't read books, don't talk

707
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: to your friends. You're like no, yeah, like it you're

708
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: a doctor. What are you saying, And she well that

709
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: that's like a transition into like the whole like one

710
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: of the big themes of this movie. And it's like,

711
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: it's weirdly now looking into knowing what we know about

712
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: how Roman Polanski used women, and then if you look

713
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: into Ira Levin's work, where he was not the monster

714
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: that Roman Polanski is, but his work sort of had

715
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: a general theme that he He also wrote The Stepford

716
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: Wives was his other major work of he was really

717
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: good at writing villains that were normal men, and that

718
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: was what makes the story scary, is that it's like

719
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: the devil you know, basically, but you know, also makes

720
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: a lot of women and his narratives pretty submissive and

721
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: not I wouldn't say he is a feminist, but he

722
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: wrote some interesting stories about women. So it's weird. I

723
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: guess all that to say, I don't know how much

724
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: of these themes are done intentionally and how like Ira

725
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: Levin said about this book that it's about atheism and

726
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: the people who see feminism in it are just seeing

727
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: what they want to see. He's interesting. He's like, it's

728
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: about how how people go too hard with Christianity and

729
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: then they're like, but don't you think any director makes

730
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: a movie without necessarily realizing what things people are going

731
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: to see in it, Because I mean, I can't imagine that,

732
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, everybody has notions about a movie they've seen

733
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: that the director knew knew they would, you know. I

734
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: just I don't think that the way art works. I

735
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: think you know that stuff inadvertently affects people. They find

736
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: things that well, really that's what you saw, okay, And

737
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: now that seems to be like some of the main

738
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: takeaways that people have from this movie watching it now

739
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: is like one of the bigger themes of just like

740
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: ignoring and minimalizing um women's physical pain, which happens throughout

741
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: this entire movie. I mean it feeds into the gas

742
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: lighting thing as well. But there's that moment where me

743
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: and Pharaoh is standing outside and New York and she's like,

744
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: pain begun, I will have no more of the as

745
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: like she is she like that was in a side Yeah,

746
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: that between Dr Sabristeine and Guy, they're constantly like she

747
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: is saying, I'm in pain, this hurts. Something's not right.

748
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: And then people who obviously couldn't possibly understand what a

749
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: pregnancy feels like are saying, no, it'll go away in

750
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: a day or so, you know, ad nauseum, don't read books,

751
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 1: don't talk to your friends. And that is like such

752
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: a proven, I mean exaggerated version of like how women

753
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: are treated and by doctors. There's been studies. I have

754
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: a study here from a book called Doing Harm, The

755
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 1: Truth about how bad medicine and lazy science leave women dismissed, misdiagnosed,

756
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: and sick. Um. It's a researcher named Maya Douson Barry

757
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: says that quote, the tendency to not believe women's reports

758
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,760
Speaker 1: of their symptoms is definitely connected to these larger, broader,

759
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: could true stereotypes about women as emotional and irrational and

760
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: hysterical in the colloquial sense of the word. Women are

761
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: stereotyped as more ready to seek care. So basically like,

762
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: women are more likely to point out their own pain

763
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: and therefore it is more likely to be dismissed by

764
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: makes perfect profession um, which I'm sure was even more

765
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,760
Speaker 1: so in the nine and the sixties. Yeah, I mean again,

766
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, having seen it back then, I don't remember

767
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: having any thoughts about any of these things when I

768
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: saw it I mean maybe a slight annoyance and how

769
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: dominated she was because I was kind of a rebel

770
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: at that time. But it was the sixties after all, right,

771
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, just totally different now perspective now because of

772
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: all this stuff, you know, and the eight million studies

773
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: that have been done since then, and all the advances

774
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: of feminism and everything else and all the and all

775
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: the the meat too. Yeah. I mean an example of

776
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: that that we see in the movie is the scene

777
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: where she goes to Dr Hill after or she's discovered

778
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: that like Dr Sapristein is in on this coven. That's

779
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: another heart that that is like a heartbreaking on par

780
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 1: for me with the you weren't raped by the devil,

781
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: you were marritally raped, okay scene and the gas lighting

782
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: scene with the chocolate moose, because it's just like they're

783
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: like shades of real life in that. Yeah, it felt

784
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 1: very authentic. Yeah, it's and it's and it sucks. The whoever,

785
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, let me find the name of the

786
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: actor who played Dr Hill, but I thought it was

787
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: very well. Charles Groden, my man Grows. I thought he

788
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 1: gave a great performance because you know, in that scene,

789
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: me and Pharaoh is laying out all this research she's done.

790
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: It does sound a little bit out there. I would

791
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: be worried about her if if someone just came in

792
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: cold and was like, I'm pregnant with the devil. Everything

793
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: is sucked up. But you can tell she means it

794
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: so much and it's something is wrong and she needs

795
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: someone to leave her, which she tells him. She's like,

796
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: no one is listening to me. And he says what

797
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: any woman who desperately needs to be believed is. He says, Okay,

798
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: let's do something about this. Like that's like and she's

799
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: got them, and she's so relieved the relief it's like

800
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: palpable can feel it, and and then he leaves and

801
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: it sucks like this just so many versions of this

802
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: happen all the time of like you want to keep

803
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: someone calm and then you call their abusers to come

804
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: and pick them up, like that happens constantly, and it's

805
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: just so But there did you I maybe I was

806
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: like reading too much into it, but I really liked

807
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: the shot where Dr sabristein and Guy enter the room

808
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: and Dr Hill is in the back of that shot

809
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: and you can almost see that he knows he's doing

810
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: the wrong thing, or he'd like, there's this look of

811
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 1: dare I say doubt too that the name um, there's

812
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: like a look he has a I don't know if

813
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: Charles Grodin's got a weird resting face. But I was like,

814
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: I felt, I was like, this motherfucker knows he did

815
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 1: the wrong thing. But and this I think is against

816
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 1: something that's like real life sometimes the way that men

817
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: interact with each other. They would rather sell out a

818
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: woman than seem weird to other men totally, because if

819
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: Dr Hill is the one person who's like, I do

820
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: believe that all this freaky devil ship is happening and

821
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: aligns himself with her, I think that he is afraid

822
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: of doing that and would rather sell her down the

823
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: river and literally, you know, force her to birth the

824
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: devil than be think go out of his comfort zone

825
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: socially right. And for a split sec and I was like, oh,

826
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 1: is the implication that he's also in on the coven thing?

827
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's it at all, and I

828
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: think it much just I know, I think it's just

829
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: that like he sees this woman, even as the medical

830
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: doctor that he is, he sees a woman who appears

831
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: to be hysterical and who he perceives to be like, oh, well,

832
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 1: she's pregnant, so and like pregnant women be hormonal. That

833
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: she is like out of her mind and needs to

834
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: be put back in the care of the men who

835
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: are actually abusing her, because men can be trusted and

836
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 1: women can't be trusted with their feelings basically. So yeah,

837
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: that was I mean, it was a very effective horror

838
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: moment in the movie when when Sta Christine and Guy

839
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: come back into the room. But it hurts my heart

840
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: to be like, like, Dr Hill, I thought you were

841
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: a good guy, like right, I mean, and it's like

842
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: he oh, it's so devastating, to the point where it

843
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: almost took me a second to get back into the

844
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,280
Speaker 1: action after that, because that is such a gut punch,

845
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: and then she immediately has to like literally go on

846
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: the run to get away and it doesn't work right,

847
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: and it makes me so sad. Oh gosh, we got

848
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: to take another quick break, so let's process her feelings

849
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: a little bit and then we'll come right back and

850
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: we're back. Can I just say, Also, Anthea Silbert, the

851
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: wife of Richard Silbert, the designer. She did the clothes,

852
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: and can we talk about her clothes for a minute.

853
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: The little I mean they were all literally dresses like

854
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: you would see on a three year old small child.

855
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,240
Speaker 1: While those are the lace collars and then the little jumpers.

856
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: Nothing was fitted. Her body was completely you know, like

857
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: those little lampshade dresses. But literally, think about it, there

858
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: were children's clothes. It's just so even when she's pregnant,

859
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: she looks like a little girl, a little girl. It's

860
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: very strange. Yeah, I mean the art direction in the

861
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: costuming this movie is also cool, and I mean the

862
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: movie looks incredible. Yeah. I mean that's like an attempt

863
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: to infantilize her and make her seem virginal, so almost

864
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: like equating her to the virgin Mary. But also the

865
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: little you know again, it just it just you can't

866
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 1: help but have parallel. Yeah. Absolutely. The haircut that Rosemary

867
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 1: gets makes her be the baldest woman in charge, except

868
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: she's not really in charge of anything, including her own life.

869
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: It's aspirational. I think spiritually it makes sense. She gets

870
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: the haircut, She's like, I'm in charge now, and everyone's like, no,

871
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: we hate it bad. And it affects her negatively. She

872
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 1: wasn't ready for the haircut. That haircut should have aligned

873
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: with her becoming more in charge of her life. I

874
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,919
Speaker 1: mean a different version. Yeah, It's just it's so it's

875
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: so frustrating to watch every like, everything she tries in

876
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: good faith that in a movie that we're kinder to

877
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 1: its protagonist would result in something. The last thing you

878
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: wanted to say about the just like the minimizing pain

879
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,479
Speaker 1: is of course, the only people she talks to who

880
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: believe her are other women, yes, who are then immediately

881
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: removed from her life. I think she tries to call

882
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: one right before she is forced into going into labor,

883
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,399
Speaker 1: but they take her seriously immediately they believe her. They're like, well,

884
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: let's let's get this fixed. And then they are also ostracizing,

885
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: removed from her life, and then we never see them again,

886
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: and they can. I just say, Also, that scene in

887
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: the phone booth is incredible when she's she's trying desperately,

888
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: she's trying to reach her friend A and the doctor

889
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: B and she's in a phone booth and it's degrees

890
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: and people are coming in and it's just like and

891
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,439
Speaker 1: the camera holds on. I lost track of how long

892
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 1: it was. The camera held one position and it went

893
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 1: on for like eight minutes. There's no cuts, no cuts,

894
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: and she was and she was sweating, and and it

895
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: was literally like her life in that phone booth. She's

896
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: trapped in this small space, nobody's responding to her on

897
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 1: the phone or otherwise. And and then at the very

898
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: end of the scene, this man appears outside the phone

899
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: with his back to her. So there's always it was

900
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: like a living hill literally in her brain in that

901
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: it was. It was an incredible scene. It's a very

902
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 1: effective horror movie. Yeah, and the a Farrow like her

903
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: performances like insanely good. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, Um,

904
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: we got to talk about the rape scene. We do

905
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: something that the rape scene. Um, so there's okay. So,

906
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: I mean I think that maybe maybe they in to

907
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: talk about that scene is to talk about the scene

908
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: that comes immediately after, because the way it is stylized

909
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: is I mean, it's it sucks that we see raping

910
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: movie so frequently. I don't think that it's especially like

911
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: worth discussing. Um there is. I mean, there's a bunch

912
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 1: of nude Satanists there. She gets raped by satan. She

913
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: does call out one at one point, this isn't a dream,

914
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: this is really happening, right, And then we cut to

915
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: the next morning. Yeah, I think the next day is

916
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: I found that far more disturbing, even though I mean,

917
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: obviously the previous scene is very disturbing, but it's disturbing

918
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: in a way that's kind of unfamiliar because it's there's

919
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: a room full of nude Satanists also in that scene,

920
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: so much fantasy that you can kind of you and

921
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: and the just the horror and uneas we feel during

922
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: that scene is like, that's the intention of that scene.

923
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: But then the next scene, Jamie, as you said, is

924
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: disturbing for a different reason, is because so I have

925
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 1: the dialogue exchange, Oh, I have it written, now, who

926
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: do you want to be? I don't want to be Guy,

927
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: but I don't want you to be Guy. Um, nobody

928
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: wants I'll be guys. So that we So the next morning, Um,

929
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 1: she wakes up next to Guy. She's kind of disoriented,

930
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: she's remembering what's happened to her in real time, and

931
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: she realizes that she has these like pretty severe scratches

932
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: on your body. Yes, so Guy says, kind of gesturing

933
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 1: to his fingernails, don't you know, I already filed them down.

934
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 1: I didn't want to miss baby night. And the first

935
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: and the Rosemary says while I was out, and then

936
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: and then he's in the other room and he says,

937
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: and it was kind of fun in a necrophile sort

938
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: of way, and just like any any sympathy. And in

939
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: the previous scene, um where you see Rosemary being in

940
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 1: and out and in and out, and then it cuts

941
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,879
Speaker 1: to the devil raping her, he's not acting that way.

942
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 1: He's saying, we'll have sex another day, It's okay to

943
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: go to sleep, and and so that, I mean, I

944
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: didn't know what happened immediately after, and I was like, oh,

945
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 1: that's something, you know. But then the next morning it's

946
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: a total one eight. He was like, yeah, yeah, of

947
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: course I merritily raped you. It's still legal in this

948
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: in most states when this movie comes out. And then

949
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: Rosemary says, I dreamed someone was raping me. I don't

950
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: know someone inhuman. Then he says thanks a lot, like

951
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 1: he's already over it, and he's and she's calling him.

952
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: She says nothing, and then he tries to touch her.

953
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: She pulls away and he's like I didn't want to

954
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: miss the night, and she says, we could have done

955
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: it this morning or tonight. Last night wasn't the only

956
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: split second, and then he wraps the scene up by saying,

957
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: I was a little bit loaded myself, you know. So

958
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: he he admits that he merritally raped his wife, even

959
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: though he said in the previous scene, go to bed,

960
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: it's fine. And then where the story gets really complicated

961
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 1: is that he didn't maritally rape his wife. He brought

962
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: her to the devil so that she could get raped

963
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: by the devil. But the fact that all the fantasy

964
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: should aside the fact that this scene plays out the

965
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: way it does and it's realistic, it's just insane to watch.

966
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: Where he's like, yeah, of course I did that. It

967
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: was fun. Then she also acts like it's kind of

968
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 1: no big deal. She's she's visibly upset by it, but

969
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 1: she just kind of has to accept it because, yeah,

970
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: as you said, like marital rape wasn't even considered rape.

971
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: It was like, oh, you're married to a man. He

972
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: can have sex with you whenever he wants, including while

973
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: you were sleeping and not able to give consent. Yeah,

974
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: she that seemed to go right by or Actually I

975
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 1: thought that was kind of alarming, to say the least,

976
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: and to see her like she pulls away a little

977
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: bit and but still is Oh, it's just a very

978
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: but that was very much with the culture too, as

979
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: you say, like, man, you know, whenever you want, you

980
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: just take it. You know, would anybody have thought that

981
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: the devil raping this childlike virginal young woman would sort

982
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: of have this creepy mirror effect as to you know,

983
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 1: Rouman Polanski's activity. I mean, it just has a whole other,

984
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: whole other level of creepy. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, God this

985
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: And I'm like I understand after watching it, I'm like,

986
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: I understand why I avoided it for so Yeah. And

987
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: then I mean, I'm not a mother, so I can't

988
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 1: speak to mothering instincts. But I'm just curious if there's

989
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: anyone out there whose mothering instincts are so strong that

990
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:21,439
Speaker 1: when you learn that your baby is the devil, do

991
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: you still like, yep, I want to be the mother

992
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: to this devil baby? Is that? Well? I can a thing.

993
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: I have been a mother. I mean, I am a

994
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: mother ahead still am did you quit? I got fired?

995
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: My daughters fired me. They turned to wedding um, and

996
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: I have to say it's it is an overpowering Okay,

997
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: it really is. Neither my daughters are a devil, although

998
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: sometimes I wonder. But so I can't really speak to

999
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: that exactly. I mean, it's not a real thing, but

1000
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: you know, and I can a sort of bought it

1001
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 1: because I know what that's that feeling is like when

1002
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: your baby first shows up. It's the most incredible thing,

1003
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: unless you're a person who doesn't like babies. But and

1004
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: also because we've been set up through the movie where

1005
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: she has no other interests or no other nothing else

1006
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: she's passionate about except that, so she's all her juice

1007
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: is going towards being maternal, so you can sort of see, well,

1008
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: he's mine, and maybe I better. She's rocking the cradle

1009
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: too hard, she says to the woman, don't rock that

1010
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: cradle so hard any consort of I don't know. I

1011
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: thought it was an interesting ending where it doesn't it

1012
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 1: would be so it would be super lame if the

1013
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 1: movie outright said and now she's going to be a

1014
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: mother to the devil baby. But the fact that she

1015
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 1: it like does line up with her character that she

1016
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: would consider it and then also I don't know. I

1017
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: was like in a hotel room in Indianapolis, just like

1018
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: staring at the ceiling, like what would I have done?

1019
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: But if you think about like no one asks to

1020
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 1: be born, right and this baby is in a predicament,

1021
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, this baby could really use

1022
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 1: some good influence. I mean, there is that great maternal

1023
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: rush right when I'm born. And she said, so, she's

1024
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: good doing this towards her infant. The thing that across

1025
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: my mind was like, but what happens when he's a teenager? Yeah,

1026
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 1: and he's gonna and he starts like starting wars and

1027
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 1: whatever all that ship the Devil does. Then what is

1028
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 1: she going to think Jee's adoption might have been a

1029
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: better option. This could go very We need to talk

1030
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: about Kevin later exactly. I guess my mind went to

1031
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: one of our very first discussions on our on our

1032
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: very first episode was the kill Bill discussion, where like

1033
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: she learns that she's pregnant, and I think the implication

1034
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: is just that every woman has such a strong mothering

1035
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 1: instinct that no matter what her circumstances are in life,

1036
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: she's gonna like drop up everything to be a mother

1037
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: that was more darring to me in that movie because

1038
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: we knew that she had she had her The whole

1039
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: movie was about her other interests with Rosemary. I mean,

1040
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: I think it's a flaw. I don't even know if

1041
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: it's a flaw, but it's we don't know anything about

1042
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: her other than she is a sweet little lady from

1043
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: like Ohio. So it's like implied that she is naive.

1044
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,919
Speaker 1: She doesn't have a large support network in New York,

1045
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: and she wants to have a baby, and that's sort

1046
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: of all we know. That really does make your skin

1047
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: call a little bit, doesn't know when somebody says everybody

1048
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 1: is such a strong mothering it because they don't. Actually

1049
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: I don't have one whatsoever. I mean, like you might

1050
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 1: have a baby popped out. But it's something I sometimes

1051
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 1: I think people don't know where they do or they don't.

1052
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,479
Speaker 1: But they said definitely a lot of people don't write.

1053
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: And that's always been a thing that's been pinned on

1054
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: women that it's like a falsehood, definitely, and that's never

1055
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: asked of just like no one has ever what about

1056
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: the about like strong Let's make that movie also with

1057
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: Sharon Stone. Um, is there anything else that anyone wants

1058
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: to talk about before we finish. So the villains of

1059
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 1: this movie are we I mean, we have male and

1060
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: female villains basically all the all the Satanists are. And

1061
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: it's also worth saying culturally that this is like base

1062
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: level satanic panic, which will only increase going into the

1063
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties and nineties even And a lot of

1064
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: that has to do with what happens to round Plansky's

1065
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: wife the next year, because the man's and family is

1066
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: so steeped in that. Yeah, it's just a whole fucking

1067
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: like this. This movie weirdly foreshadows. And also there were

1068
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 1: a lot of I forget what, there was like a

1069
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: list of in the late sixties. It was like The

1070
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: Omen came out. There was a lot of like evil

1071
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: baby movies. The Bad Seed came out in the fifties,

1072
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: which it was a movie that's to scared the ship

1073
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 1: out of me. So it's like taking place with that.

1074
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 1: But many, for all of her satanic shortcomings, is a

1075
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 1: fun character, really fun to watch. Every time she's on screen,

1076
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: You're like, fuck, it's Ruth Gordon. She's got charisma, she's

1077
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: got look at that head scarf, look at that blouse

1078
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 1: like she's got blue eyeshadow on. She's really going for it.

1079
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: And I think that that just is like something that

1080
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 1: we come across a lot, where Mini's character has nine

1081
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: thousand times of personality that Rosemary does, which is I

1082
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 1: don't know. It's almost like in high school musical. If

1083
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 1: you listen to our matron of them in high school Musical,

1084
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: it's like how Gabriella is the main character, but she's

1085
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: kind of boring. And then Sharpey, the female villain, has

1086
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 1: all this personality and we're supposed to hate her, and

1087
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 1: it's like, but she's more fun to watch. It's just

1088
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: another thing. And then when you get to fucking Louie

1089
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: Louie laur Laura Linney, it wasn't the character there, Laura Louise,

1090
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 1: Laura Louise. She's in one scene and she's just she's

1091
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: She's in a bunch of scenes. I want to spin

1092
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,959
Speaker 1: off with her. I want to spin off with her,

1093
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: and she's just yelling. She's also got a wild blast.

1094
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 1: I'm like Mini and Laura Louise. Okay, a sitcom with

1095
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: two older female satanists who are best friends. I love

1096
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 1: that it's someone by it it's like Laverne and Shirley,

1097
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: but like they're saying, Well, that's another thing I wanted

1098
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: to say about this movie, which is that a lot

1099
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 1: of movies and a lot of media about which is

1100
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: have a very specific way of depicting which is, and

1101
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: it's usually that they are evil and bad and praying

1102
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: upon innocence. But these days, anyone who identifies as a

1103
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,919
Speaker 1: which is just you know, charging their crystals and not

1104
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 1: doing harm to anybody. Same thing with Satanism. The way

1105
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 1: Satanism is depicted in this movie and many movies is like, hey,

1106
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 1: let's get together and help someone rape a woman and

1107
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: steal her baby and stuff like that. And obviously anyone

1108
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 1: who's doing anything like that is horrible. But modern Satanism

1109
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 1: is nothing like that. I don't know if if you

1110
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 1: or our listeners are familiar with like modern Satanism. But

1111
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 1: the members of the Satanic Temple are cool. They are

1112
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:39,439
Speaker 1: very like progressive. They're very like pro reproductive rights, they're

1113
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 1: very pro science, they're very pro like separation of church

1114
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 1: and state. Their agenda is is very progressive as far

1115
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 1: as I can tell, I guess we should, yeah, we

1116
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: should make clear that when we are goofing on Satanism

1117
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: in this movie. It's the version of Satanism that is

1118
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: projected in this and throughout the Satanic panic. Yes, yes, yes, yes,

1119
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: shout out to all our Sataness and I mean, and

1120
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: it's like it's so fit interesting because it's like it's

1121
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: always the not always, but in some cases, like the

1122
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 1: subcultures that just have a negative stigma attached to it

1123
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 1: because of media like this, that end up being like

1124
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: very lovely progressive people. I would also lump in Juggalos

1125
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: to that. Juggalos are if you look at their platform.

1126
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 1: We gotta get some Jugglers in office. They're so progressive,

1127
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: they're so they preach love, they march on Washington, They're

1128
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: out there doing the work, they are gathering. They're also

1129
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 1: really good hack shout all our Juggalo listeners. Yeah. The

1130
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: main thing here is that the way that like Witchcraft

1131
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 1: and Satanism is portrayed in this movie and different other

1132
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: movies around this era is not reflective of like modern

1133
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 1: Witchcraft and modern uh Satanism and stuff like that. So

1134
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: worth noting. Oh we did get around to the artist

1135
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 1: art thing. Oh yeah, we never concluded that maybe just

1136
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 1: too long a discussion there. I mean, this, this is

1137
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 1: one of the harder cases I've ever en. I don't know,

1138
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: I doesn't get harder than this. Yeah, well, how does

1139
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,799
Speaker 1: everyone feel? I mean, I'm fine with not seeing this

1140
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 1: movie again, or really any movies that we know have

1141
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 1: been made by the autours who are criminals. There's so

1142
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 1: much other stuff out there that isn't made by sex

1143
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 1: criminals that I am happy to watch instead. But it

1144
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: is tricky because this is a well crafted movie, and

1145
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: I like, I hate to admit this, but I like

1146
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 1: another of Polanski's movies. It's called The Ninth Gate. It

1147
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 1: is not a good movie, but I still like it.

1148
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 1: But like, I'm like, I can't watch this anymore. Yeah,

1149
01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: it's weird. It's it feels like it's it's such an

1150
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 1: individual decision, and it's like the sort of thing where

1151
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:06,680
Speaker 1: I think when the me Too movement was first happening,

1152
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 1: I was very I think, along with like a lot

1153
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 1: of people are very quick to just be like nope,

1154
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 1: done by see garbage bad. And I still feel that

1155
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 1: way fundamentally, But it's like, now that we are having

1156
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,599
Speaker 1: these conversations more, it's like, Okay, it's not as black

1157
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,680
Speaker 1: and white as that, especially when it's like, you know,

1158
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: you can't be upset with a friend of yours if

1159
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 1: you have a friend who loves Rosemary's Baby and is

1160
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 1: not quite ready to part with it, Like that's that's

1161
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: a thing that that means, that's like what when are

1162
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 1: I mean, there's millions of people out there who aren't

1163
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 1: going to want to part with Michael Jackson's music, you know,

1164
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 1: Like so I still don't know. I think what my

1165
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 1: hope is is that we come to a point in

1166
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 1: just the entertainment that's available to us that so much

1167
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 1: good stuff has been made by talented people who are

1168
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 1: not predators and sex criminals, that we can just just

1169
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 1: enjoy that and kind of forget about the stuff is

1170
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 1: made by the bad people. But also, but there was

1171
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: also a lot, for example, to look at this movie now,

1172
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 1: it gives us, just on this discussion, it gives us

1173
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 1: an interesting perspective on not just you know, the movie

1174
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:29,880
Speaker 1: itself and how it's craft and how women in it

1175
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 1: look different than they would have when it came out,

1176
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 1: but also on the issue we're talking about about on

1177
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: Roman Polanski and his behavior, and it makes you go,

1178
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it can be productive in a

1179
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 1: way if you can use it to better better understand

1180
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: your own feelings about about the whole thing, about all

1181
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,360
Speaker 1: kinds of things. Yeah. I mean it's like I wish

1182
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:59,759
Speaker 1: all Sex Predators works were so like, absolutely unquestionably bad art. Yeah,

1183
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 1: that it would be a much easier discussion, but it is.

1184
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like a lot of people are processing

1185
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 1: how they feel. Um, I think, I mean, the only

1186
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: thing I think that we can all agree on is

1187
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 1: the fact that Roman Polansky got convicted of this crime

1188
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 1: and continued to work for forty years is absolutely unexactly

1189
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 1: that's horrible. That's horrible. I mean, while other people are like,

1190
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 1: I think, you know, two people have said he did

1191
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 1: this or he did that and their lives are completely over,

1192
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 1: which is yeah, like you just don't get it. Just

1193
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,200
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense that he is thriving in Paris and

1194
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:42,480
Speaker 1: a lovely fuck him. It's definitely like an individual journey. Listeners,

1195
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:45,559
Speaker 1: we encourage you to continue to explore your feelings about

1196
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,320
Speaker 1: stuff like this, talk to your friends about it. It feels,

1197
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's uncomfortable to talk about, but it's

1198
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:55,799
Speaker 1: even having talks like this is feels helpful. To process.

1199
01:11:56,040 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: I had one more I don't know this movie because

1200
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: this was the fifty at anniversary of this movie last year. Um,

1201
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: there was a lot of media around it. And there's

1202
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 1: a female horror director, UM named Karen Kusama my favorite

1203
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 1: movie she's directed as Jennifer's Body Love. But she's she's,

1204
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, one of the only prominent female horror directors.

1205
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 1: And so she was asked about this movie and UM

1206
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:24,680
Speaker 1: she I'll just read what she said. She said, what

1207
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:26,640
Speaker 1: one thing to add here is that Roman Polanski has

1208
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:29,240
Speaker 1: made one of the greatest feminist parables of cinema. And

1209
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 1: yet we have to struggle with Polanski the man and

1210
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 1: the things he did, the crimes he committed. But that,

1211
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 1: to me is the enduring possibility of art, that it

1212
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 1: can stand apart from its maker. And I believe we

1213
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:41,880
Speaker 1: have to judge Rosemary's Baby on its own merit. I

1214
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with that statement, but the fact that

1215
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 1: that comes from a very progressive female horror director I

1216
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 1: thought was interesting, so worth mentioning. Well, it's just about

1217
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 1: one fift so we got to wrap up. I don't

1218
01:12:56,200 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 1: go see Dr Sapristin. Oh No, before you know, we

1219
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:06,679
Speaker 1: can fanis anyone does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

1220
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:10,160
Speaker 1: It does? Um? Can I just say all they did

1221
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 1: whenever more than one woman in the scene, Let's talk

1222
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 1: about recipes and saying getting a second opinion, That's all

1223
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:20,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Yeah, there wasn't really any substance exchange, not really, no, no,

1224
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: but that's pretty par for the course. For all the

1225
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:27,120
Speaker 1: conversations that we see. You got to put in my

1226
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 1: clothing stuff in a fabric, laundry, babies recipes, yeah, yeah,

1227
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 1: And in almost every scene there was an additional conversation

1228
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 1: about what does your husband do so yes, or your

1229
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 1: husband is very hot. That was one thing where like

1230
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:48,200
Speaker 1: Rosemary repeated her husband's resume to like four or five.

1231
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,479
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know, loser and shot to kill

1232
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 1: an apatross. That's not what she was like, he's in this,

1233
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:56,280
Speaker 1: in this and yeah, things aren't going great right now,

1234
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: but they will be going good soon. And I was like,

1235
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: oh god, that seems exhausting. Um, just I'm like, I

1236
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,800
Speaker 1: don't walk around just being like my boyfriend is not

1237
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:08,799
Speaker 1: sure about his life direction Like that sounds exhausting. Well,

1238
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 1: there are plenty of exchanges between Rosemary and Mini Rosemary

1239
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: and Terry Laura Louise that the brassy queen of the Devil.

1240
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 1: Um it passes the Devil's Nanny. The Devil's aren't, but

1241
01:14:27,439 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 1: she in most scenes with women it passes at least once,

1242
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:34,599
Speaker 1: but the kind of exchanges are very domestic. Also, question,

1243
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 1: does the movie pass the back to test if Mia

1244
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 1: Pharaoh talks to herself because I won't feel pain ever again?

1245
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: Pain begone? Feminist test heard it here first. Um, so

1246
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 1: let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. It's zero

1247
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,880
Speaker 1: to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. Um,

1248
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: I just don't know. I think I'm going to give

1249
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:58,720
Speaker 1: it like just right down the middle, like a two

1250
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 1: point five because or is like, on one hand, this

1251
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 1: is like a movie whose journey we see is a

1252
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,280
Speaker 1: woman who's dealing with all this abuse and who is

1253
01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: trying to you know, she has agency and she's trying

1254
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:16,559
Speaker 1: to reclaim her agency even further. But I think this

1255
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: story would be a lot more powerful and authentic and

1256
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:24,080
Speaker 1: probably maybe would have ended differently, or or the story

1257
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 1: would have been unfolded a little differently if it had

1258
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 1: been you know, written and directed by women, especially a

1259
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,720
Speaker 1: mother who knows what a pregnancy is like, and not

1260
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:38,600
Speaker 1: a man who is a known rapist. I think I

1261
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 1: might be wrong about this nipple writing, but I don't

1262
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:44,200
Speaker 1: really know. I still just don't know how to really

1263
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:48,760
Speaker 1: process this movie. So I'm just gonna do the two

1264
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 1: point five and, which is still an f when you

1265
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:56,680
Speaker 1: think about it. But but yeah, I wish there was

1266
01:15:56,800 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: just a slightly different version of this movie in which

1267
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 1: she's maybe more triumphant at the end, or we know

1268
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:08,439
Speaker 1: more about her character. I don't feel empowered by this movie.

1269
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 1: I see the read that it is. It could be

1270
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 1: a feminist text, but looking at it through the lens of,

1271
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:18,560
Speaker 1: you know, our culture in two thousand nineteen, like I'm

1272
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,800
Speaker 1: I don't really see that so much. I wish the

1273
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:25,639
Speaker 1: way this story had played out was that she catches

1274
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:32,559
Speaker 1: on to all this Devil Covens stuff, sooner she does

1275
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 1: her research, she figures everything out, she gets away, she

1276
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 1: has an abortion, and then she just lives the rest

1277
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 1: of her life away from all the scary people. So

1278
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:47,479
Speaker 1: that would be lovely. So at two point five and,

1279
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,879
Speaker 1: I'll give two of my nipples to Mia Pharaoh, whose

1280
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 1: husband at the time, Frank Sinatra, left her during the

1281
01:16:55,920 --> 01:17:00,400
Speaker 1: shoot of this movie because he's like, you're still working. Well,

1282
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 1: then that's not what I wanted and I'm going to

1283
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 1: divorce you. Well, he wanted her to be in a

1284
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,320
Speaker 1: movie with him, and then she bailed on the movie.

1285
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:08,560
Speaker 1: And then the movies came out the same day and

1286
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 1: Rosemary's Baby did like five times the amount of business.

1287
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 1: So that's the triumphant. That's a marriage killer. Yeah. Anyway,

1288
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 1: so um too to Mia Pharaoh, and I'll give my

1289
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,880
Speaker 1: half nipple to the black cat that you see at

1290
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:26,280
Speaker 1: the very end for a split second in the coven

1291
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 1: um and cats also have eight nipples as cat facts

1292
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:33,919
Speaker 1: with Caitlin anyway too and half nipple as the end. Jessica,

1293
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:39,719
Speaker 1: you're you're rating, Oh gosh, I'm I'm torn about my nipples.

1294
01:17:41,439 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 1: Sounds very uncomfortable because I know Rick does, doesn't it?

1295
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:47,839
Speaker 1: Because again, I mean when you said, like the horror

1296
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 1: director considers this a feminist movie, in a way, you

1297
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:53,919
Speaker 1: have to look at Rosemary. You could look at Rosemary

1298
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:57,920
Speaker 1: as getting exactly what she wants ultimately, which is a baby,

1299
01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: and um, this is the Devil's baby. But you're not

1300
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 1: going to take this baby away from Hofs but yeah,

1301
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 1: herby she got what she wanted in a way. It's

1302
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:13,920
Speaker 1: just I'm so uncomfortable about how she's treated. I mean

1303
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:18,719
Speaker 1: it's because you know, I'm from that generation. Um my parents,

1304
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, the greatest generation grew up and you know,

1305
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:23,320
Speaker 1: we're I mean we're married and had children the fifties,

1306
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 1: and I watched the dynamics between them and they were

1307
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, there's the echoes of that just made me

1308
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 1: so uncomfortable. On the other hand, I do think the

1309
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 1: movie is beautifully crafted. It's incredibly written, it's so well acted.

1310
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:40,880
Speaker 1: It looks gorgeous, and she's terrific, you know. So there's that,

1311
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:43,880
Speaker 1: So there's great artistry. There's just so much to make

1312
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:47,240
Speaker 1: you uncomfortable. And I'm a little ambivalent about the feminist

1313
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,240
Speaker 1: thing too, Like, really, I don't know if that's really

1314
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:53,599
Speaker 1: what I would call a feminist outcome. So I don't

1315
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 1: know what is that? What would that translate in terms

1316
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 1: of nipples? Like what do you think two and a hat.

1317
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm with you, Maybe it's doing it. I mean,

1318
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:06,960
Speaker 1: I give a big nipple to to the scene on

1319
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 1: the phone booth was just create like Hitchcock kind of Jamie.

1320
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 1: What about you. Um, I'm going to go with two

1321
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 1: and a half as well, Uh say, complicated choice. I

1322
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 1: I don't think it's weird. I don't think we come

1323
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 1: across stories like this very often. Where I disagree with

1324
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 1: Karen Casama. I don't think that this is like a

1325
01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 1: feminist film, but I do think it's an effectively told

1326
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:40,360
Speaker 1: story about a woman. Uh. That made me feel a lot. Yeah,

1327
01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:43,200
Speaker 1: it's it's an effectively told story about a woman where

1328
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 1: for all of the failings of Rosemary's character writing wise,

1329
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 1: where we don't know anything really about her family, we

1330
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 1: don't really know anything about if she has interested, she

1331
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: go to school, how did she guide me? Like? There

1332
01:19:57,439 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: there's so many things we don't know about her that

1333
01:19:59,880 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: we do know about guy. But for the things we

1334
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:08,639
Speaker 1: do know about her, she does seem pretty smart, getting

1335
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:12,519
Speaker 1: through like a mire of gas lighting from everyone around

1336
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:17,560
Speaker 1: you and still being able to do research. She's constantly

1337
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:21,200
Speaker 1: seeking out allies who can help her out unfortunately most

1338
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:23,639
Speaker 1: of the world. And I think the scene that upset

1339
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:26,720
Speaker 1: me most is the scene with Dr Hill at the end. Yeah, Like,

1340
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:30,800
Speaker 1: I think you see that she does everything she possibly

1341
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:35,599
Speaker 1: can to gain agency over herself, her life, and her body.

1342
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:37,439
Speaker 1: The reason I don't think it's the feminist film is

1343
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:41,880
Speaker 1: because she's not really successful in doing that. So I

1344
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 1: don't know. The way this movie rolls out is just

1345
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:47,599
Speaker 1: like it's I'm still I feel like I'm still processing it.

1346
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:52,679
Speaker 1: It's so I've never seen a movie be this cruel

1347
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 1: to its protagonists but also make it clear to you

1348
01:20:57,080 --> 01:21:00,040
Speaker 1: that the protagonist has done everything she could poss a

1349
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 1: bleed do to try to save herself and it does

1350
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,240
Speaker 1: not work. It's just like it's usually if you see

1351
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: a movie that's cruel to its female protagonists, it's like

1352
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:12,360
Speaker 1: the protagonist is so severely underdeveloped that they seem stupid

1353
01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:15,280
Speaker 1: and like completely unable to help themselves. But it's like

1354
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:20,120
Speaker 1: Rosemary is intelligent, she's observant, she's doing everything she possibly can,

1355
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,479
Speaker 1: and the movie does not give her an inch. It's

1356
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:27,240
Speaker 1: just wild, which I mean, I think. I think it

1357
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 1: just has a lot to do with the era and

1358
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:33,280
Speaker 1: the cultural context when this movie came out and takes

1359
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:37,560
Speaker 1: place and stuff, and for for all of its problematic

1360
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 1: history that goes along and all the baggers that comes

1361
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:44,160
Speaker 1: with this movie, it does feel worth mentioning that it

1362
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 1: is like movies like this that allow It's like I

1363
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:55,599
Speaker 1: famously said before we started recording Rosemary's Baby walked so

1364
01:21:55,680 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 1: that Baba Duke could run. And there's a lot of

1365
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:07,080
Speaker 1: less troubling, more endings. You were just talking about movies

1366
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 1: made in the past couple of years alone with Boba Duke.

1367
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 1: And then you've also got hereditary um that explore to

1368
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:19,160
Speaker 1: varying degrees of success, but like explore a woman's psyche

1369
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 1: and have that be a part of where the horror

1370
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:26,760
Speaker 1: comes from. So this movie, while very flauded, think it

1371
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 1: was at least it's influence all good stuff to happen. Yeah,

1372
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:35,719
Speaker 1: but it seems like just like very surface level read

1373
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 1: it seems like in spite of her trying to and

1374
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:42,599
Speaker 1: like intelligently trying to save her own life at every turn,

1375
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 1: it ended up the way that they want it, and

1376
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:50,160
Speaker 1: that is I didn't feel uplifted or she does not

1377
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:53,360
Speaker 1: come out the victor in this story. And and it's

1378
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:55,280
Speaker 1: like that's a difficult thing to watch that I don't think.

1379
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 1: We see a lot that is true to life in

1380
01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Um, not necessarily what I want

1381
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 1: to see reflected in media, but you know, like someone

1382
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:08,599
Speaker 1: who does everything and the oppositional forces are too much

1383
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:12,920
Speaker 1: and it just doesn't happen. Um, this movie fucked me up.

1384
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 1: I'll just go two and a half just because I

1385
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:22,080
Speaker 1: love my friends and I want to be like them. Um,

1386
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:25,120
Speaker 1: two and a half I'll give I'm going to give

1387
01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 1: one to what's her name again, Louie Louis. I don't

1388
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 1: give what to Laura Louise because I was like, what

1389
01:23:34,320 --> 01:23:37,479
Speaker 1: is going on with you over here? Which, by the way,

1390
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:41,479
Speaker 1: Roman cast Avent is like, oh she and many are

1391
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:47,639
Speaker 1: too old to take care of babies like those those

1392
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:51,080
Speaker 1: broads will fuck them up, like you're just like just

1393
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:54,080
Speaker 1: but yeah, but like I know, but guy is to

1394
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:57,479
Speaker 1: just Satanists in general shouldn't be raising children. I think

1395
01:23:57,479 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 1: we can agree. Um yeah, I'll give one to Louis Louis,

1396
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 1: one to Terry r I p wish I knew you better,

1397
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:09,679
Speaker 1: and then I'll give a happy to Ruth Gordon because

1398
01:24:09,760 --> 01:24:13,639
Speaker 1: my god, what a fucking performance and she was turning

1399
01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:17,519
Speaker 1: a look in every fucking scene. Yeah, Jessica, thank you

1400
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:19,599
Speaker 1: so much for being here. This has been such a delight.

1401
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:22,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. This is so far. Yes, Um,

1402
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:25,120
Speaker 1: is there anything you would like to plug talk about

1403
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:27,800
Speaker 1: your podcast. I want to just once again plug my

1404
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:32,040
Speaker 1: new podcast. It's called Winnetta. That's spelled w I n

1405
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: n E t k A, and um, it's about my

1406
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:37,759
Speaker 1: childhood growing up there, which of course took place during

1407
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:40,920
Speaker 1: partly during the era that this movie covers and has

1408
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:46,000
Speaker 1: all the all the ups and downs represented in that movie, um,

1409
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:49,680
Speaker 1: except for the double part. Anyway, you can find it

1410
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 1: wherever you find your podcast and it's a memoir and

1411
01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:58,960
Speaker 1: then go on Instagram to Jessica Harperama or go to

1412
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:02,439
Speaker 1: Winna Pa podcast on Instagram or Twitter. I'm on Facebook

1413
01:25:02,439 --> 01:25:05,400
Speaker 1: to Jessica Harper. Awesome, I mean great, Yes, follow her

1414
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 1: in all the places and listen to Thanks guys, thank

1415
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:10,840
Speaker 1: you so much for coming so you have to see

1416
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 1: or just a quick note, Jessica did have to leave

1417
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:22,639
Speaker 1: a little bit before we were done recording the episodes.

1418
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:24,439
Speaker 1: If there are sections of the episode it was like,

1419
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:28,360
Speaker 1: are you just talking over a legend. No, she just

1420
01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:31,040
Speaker 1: simply was not here for those night here and we

1421
01:25:31,120 --> 01:25:34,040
Speaker 1: love her so much. Yeah, she was amazing. Yeah. So

1422
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:38,280
Speaker 1: if there are large chunks where Jessica is not talking,

1423
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:41,679
Speaker 1: we recorded those after she had to leave, and then

1424
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:45,800
Speaker 1: edit them into the episode. So with that, let's plug

1425
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:51,400
Speaker 1: our little plug doubles. You can follow us online on Twitter, Instagram,

1426
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:55,040
Speaker 1: Facebook at Bechtel cast Um. You can sign up for

1427
01:25:55,080 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 1: our Patreon ak Matreon Yeah to bonus episodes among five

1428
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:02,680
Speaker 1: bucks a month, and then you get the backlog so

1429
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:06,160
Speaker 1: you really get like thirty episodes um. And then check

1430
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:08,519
Speaker 1: out our Tea Public store, get some merch at t

1431
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:12,799
Speaker 1: public dot com, slash the macdeal cast, and as always,

1432
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 1: we love you so much, thanks for listening. Yeah by