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Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up. The

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Speaker 1: choice to be in that lineup was the last choice

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Speaker 1: I made as a free man.

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Speaker 2: A year later, I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 1: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

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Speaker 1: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 2: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 2: might have to play in my hanging.

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Speaker 1: They had been told.

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Speaker 4: That two prison officers would have to participate in my execution.

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Speaker 2: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

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Speaker 2: all help broke loose.

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Speaker 1: But welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today

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Speaker 1: we have a very special episode, not only because of

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Speaker 1: our amazing guest, Dennis Mayer. First of all, Dennis, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Dennis will get into his story in a minute, but

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Speaker 1: let's suffice it to say that he was a sergeant

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Speaker 1: in the United States Army. When he was wrongfully convicted

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Speaker 1: of three rapes and served almost twenty years in prison.

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Speaker 1: I also want to introduce Hannah Riley, who's the director

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Speaker 1: of communications for the New England Innocence Project, and she's

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Speaker 1: the first time on the show, hopefully not the last.

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Speaker 1: And then we have a very close friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: Alex Spiro. He is a former criminal prosecutor in New

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Speaker 1: York and currently a defense attorney. He's also a professor

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Speaker 1: at Harvard Law School. Alex, it's great to have you

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Speaker 1: on the show as well. Thanks. So Dennis, let's start

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Speaker 1: with you. Your case is of great interest, I think, to

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Speaker 1: anyone who's interested in this genre, because it touches on

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Speaker 1: a number of really important and tragically common problems in

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Speaker 1: the wrongful conviction world. The mistake and eye witness identification

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Speaker 1: is unique in your case because of the fact that

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Speaker 1: there were three different women who identified you under dubious circumstances,

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Speaker 1: but nonetheless that identified you. It touches on the storage

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Speaker 1: of evidence because in your case the evidence had been

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Speaker 1: supposedly lost but actually it wasn't. And that's something that

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Speaker 1: is really disturbing to anyone who's interested in justice. It

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Speaker 1: deals with incompetent defense counsel. And also it also has

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Speaker 1: an element of willful wrongful prosecution. So you really hit

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Speaker 1: the jackpot of causes of getting locked up for something

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Speaker 1: you didn't do. So let's go back, and this is

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Speaker 1: a while ago, right, we're talking nineteen eighty three when

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Speaker 1: this all came down.

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Speaker 2: That's when it started.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So nineteen eighty three, paint a picture for us.

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Speaker 1: You were were you active to do you in the

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Speaker 1: military at this time?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I was stationed at Fort Devons.

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Speaker 1: Right, and you had been in the airborne Right. I

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Speaker 1: was a paratrooper paraterooper station in Italy.

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Speaker 4: Well, first I was at Fort Bragg, then I volunteered

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Speaker 4: to serve overseas. Then I re enlisted to come home

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Speaker 4: to Massachusetts, and then I got off a jump status

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Speaker 4: to work in my field, which was a diesel mechanic.

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Speaker 1: And that's another thing. It's it's really upsetting to me,

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Speaker 1: as someone who loves this country and respects the men

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Speaker 1: and women of our military. Here you are. You're twenty

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Speaker 1: three years old at the time, yep. And what happened.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to that.

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Speaker 4: Well, I graduated from high school in seventy eight and

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Speaker 4: enlisted in the Army right out of high school, you know.

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Speaker 4: I went through Basic training, Advanced Individual Training, Jump school,

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Speaker 4: then went to Fort Bragg, then to Becenza, Italy in

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Speaker 4: the five or nine, and then to ten Special Forces

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Speaker 4: up at Fort Devons. Then I got off of jump

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Speaker 4: status to work as a diesel mechanic because what I

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Speaker 4: worked on doesn't drop out of. And then from there

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Speaker 4: I was living at home and Lowell with my parents.

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Speaker 4: I was walking down Westford Street and I was stopped

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Speaker 4: by the police. They asked me for identification, so I

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Speaker 4: gave him my driver's license, which was outdated because when

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Speaker 4: you're in the military you get a cod on the

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Speaker 4: back of it that says your license never expires. And

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Speaker 4: so well, they asked me for identification. They ran my name,

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Speaker 4: which came back negative because I had never been in trouble,

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Speaker 4: no speeding, tickets, no nothing. He gave me back my

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Speaker 4: ID and then he searched me and he arrested me

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Speaker 4: for possession of marijuana. So they brought me to the

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Speaker 4: police station and booked me and put me in a

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Speaker 4: hold and sell. A couple of hours later, they came

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Speaker 4: out and questioned me and they said, where were you

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Speaker 4: on the night of November sixteenth, at five point thirty. Well,

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Speaker 4: I said, I was in my CEO's office getting yelled

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Speaker 4: at because we failed a nuclear biological chemical test. And

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Speaker 4: I didn't leave the base till almost quarter past five,

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Speaker 4: so I didn't get home till almost six o'clock.

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Speaker 2: And then he put me back in the cell.

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Speaker 4: And then the other cop come in a couple of

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Speaker 4: hours later and asked me the same questions.

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Speaker 2: I gave him the same answers.

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Speaker 4: On a night of November seventeenth, I was I left

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Speaker 4: the base early to get my car inspected, and I

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Speaker 4: went home and took a nap, and then I went

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Speaker 4: over to my friend's house to watch the Bruins game.

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Speaker 4: And then they brought me into court the next day

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Speaker 4: and arranged me for possession of marijuana. And then they

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Speaker 4: did what's called an in court identification. They took me

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Speaker 4: out of the box and sat me on the bench,

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Speaker 4: and they brought one of the victims in and she

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Speaker 4: identified someone else.

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Speaker 1: Wait, did you even know what was going on at

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Speaker 1: this point? I mean, you were being booked for possession

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Speaker 1: of marijuana, but now they're bringing a victim. There's no

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Speaker 1: victim of posession of marijuana.

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Speaker 4: True, what I missed was the second time they started

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Speaker 4: questioning me, I got mad, you know, why what are

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Speaker 4: you questioning me about? And he said, well, we're questioning

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Speaker 4: you about a rape that happened on November sixteenth, and

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Speaker 4: then attempted rape that happened on November seventeenth. So I said, well,

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Speaker 4: I guess I need a lawyer. And then next day

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Speaker 4: in court they did an in court identification. Now I

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Speaker 4: was never arraigned for the rapes or anything. They just

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Speaker 4: did an in court identification and the victim I died

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Speaker 4: someone else and the judge said, you have no grounds

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Speaker 4: to go forward.

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Speaker 1: Seems like case clothes right there, I mean.

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Speaker 4: So they gave me six months probation and said I

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Speaker 4: could leave now they had my boots. So I was

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Speaker 4: in stocking feet and going to have to walk home

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Speaker 4: and stalking feet. As I was leaving the courtroom, they

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Speaker 4: arrested me and charged me with the rape and the

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Speaker 4: attempted rape that the judge said there was no grounds

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Speaker 4: to go forward on.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Alex, do you want to jump in here because

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Speaker 1: this whole story is pretty surreal.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: First of all, the thing with the boots, we'll get

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Speaker 1: back to that, like why they're making you walk home

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Speaker 1: and this is in uh it's cold outside, it's in November.

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Speaker 1: It's November. Yeah, walking home? Okay, Well that's that's a

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Speaker 1: little surreal. Then you've just spent the night in jail

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Speaker 1: for the first time in your life, so I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you're a little whacked out anyway at that point. What's

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Speaker 1: going on here, Alex? Can you get into this?

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Speaker 5: I mean, obviously, the use of that sort of identify

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Speaker 5: vacation procedure raises serious questions because just presenting him alone

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Speaker 5: or him in that sort of a setting when he's

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Speaker 5: already being accused of some other crime, is not the

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Speaker 5: right way to conduct I think we know now identification procedures,

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Speaker 5: but I guess what must have happened is twofold one.

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Speaker 5: No doubt that the members of law enforcement were under

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Speaker 5: pressure to make an arrest in this case, and secondarily

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Speaker 5: during the time in which mister Mayor was incarcerated on

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Speaker 5: the initial charge, I'm sure that they noticed things articles

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Speaker 5: of clothing putting him near the scene, and other indisha

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Speaker 5: that they believed to be corroboration. And so the lack

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Speaker 5: of identification obviously did not set this record straight.

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Speaker 1: Right, And there's a very interesting point that you touch

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Speaker 1: on there, which is that there was one of the victims,

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Speaker 1: or I guess one of the victims, had said that

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Speaker 1: the attacker had had a red hooded sweatshirt, right, and

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Speaker 1: that became one of the only sort of circumstantial piece

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Speaker 1: of evidence that was even something that they could put

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Speaker 1: a hook on. Right.

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Speaker 4: That's why I think they stopped me, because they saw

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Speaker 4: I was wearing a red hooded sweatshirt, you know, and

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Speaker 4: they were two hundred feet away from me, and they

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Speaker 4: said I fit the out of conception, but I believe

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Speaker 4: it was just I had a red hooded sweatshirt on.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So seven o'clock a night, two hundred feet away, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty hard to decide. I mean, you'd have to have

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Speaker 1: sort of like really superhuman vision to be able to

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Speaker 1: match a suspect at night, seven o'clock in November in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a meteorologist, but I'm guessing it was dark,

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Speaker 1: and so it was dark and you were two hundred

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Speaker 1: feet away, and they managed to magically figure out that

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Speaker 1: it was you. Now, this goes back to the thing

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Speaker 1: I talk about often, which is that this is a

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Speaker 1: small town, right, You have a rapist out there who's

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Speaker 1: just attacked two women, raped one of them, sexually assaulted,

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Speaker 1: and tempted to wape to the other one. They got

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Speaker 1: to find somebody there. You are walking around in a

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Speaker 1: red hooded sweatshirt. It's like, oh, bingo, this is great.

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Speaker 1: We can get this off our desks to an extent, right,

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Speaker 1: And so Alex, go back to what you were saying before.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, obviously we don't know sort of verbat

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Speaker 5: him the back and forth. But no, that is not

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Speaker 5: a sound identify procedure. I could say that quite assuredly.

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Speaker 1: And what point did you you had requested a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: At what point did you get assigned a lawyer?

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Speaker 4: A lawyer approached my parents and asked if he could

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Speaker 4: represent me. Now, this is the lawyer who ended up

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Speaker 4: representing me at trial. He approached my parents the same

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Speaker 4: day I had one to appoint it to me for possession.

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Speaker 4: You know, I got six months probation. But then another

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Speaker 4: lawyer approached my parents asking if he could represent me,

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Speaker 4: and they said yes, yes, because they knew nothing about

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Speaker 4: the law like me, you know, they'd never been in

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Speaker 4: trouble or anything. And he said it'd represent me. For

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Speaker 4: five thousand dollars on a rape case.

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Speaker 1: Now nineteen eighty three, five thousand dollars, five thousand dollars, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's a lot of money back then, so

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Speaker 1: you would hope that this guy would be a real star.

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Speaker 1: But that's not the way it worked out at all,

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Speaker 1: is it. Back to the scene, So now you're about

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Speaker 1: to walk home in your socks stocking feet as New

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Speaker 1: Englanders call it, and then you get pulled back in

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Speaker 1: and you get charged with two counts of.

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Speaker 2: Rape and an attempted rape.

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Speaker 4: Right, Well, I didn't get charged then, they just arrested me,

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Speaker 4: and then they took me back to the police station

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Speaker 4: and kept me in the station over the weekend and

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Speaker 4: brought me into Cambridge Court House and that's where they

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Speaker 4: charged me at rape and put me on ten thousand

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Speaker 4: dollars bail, which is one thousand dollars cash. So my

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Speaker 4: parents bailed me out and then I went to the

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Speaker 4: first lineup, which was me six police officers.

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Speaker 2: They were all standing behind a railing.

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Speaker 4: I was standing behind a chair and I was ideed,

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Speaker 4: that was the first one.

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Speaker 1: That kind of stuff always blows me away. Let's just

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Speaker 1: reflect back on that. So they were standing behind a railing,

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Speaker 1: and you were standing behind a chair, So there was

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Speaker 1: really no reason that anyone would think there'd be anything

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Speaker 1: different about you, right, And there were six police officers

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Speaker 1: in you okay? And then the victim, one of the victims,

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Speaker 1: comes in.

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Speaker 2: And identified me.

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Speaker 4: You know, it was probably obvious to her, you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm standing behind a chair. I really don't remember the

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Speaker 4: second lineup, but I think it went along the same lines.

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Speaker 4: It was me, six police officers, my brother, and this

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Speaker 4: time I wasn't standing behind a chair, and she id'd me.

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Speaker 1: What does your brother have to do with it?

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Speaker 4: Well, he was just in a line. He was there,

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Speaker 4: and they just wanted to stick him in the lineup.

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Speaker 1: That seems odd, doesn't it?

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Speaker 5: And I think that, you know, law enforcement would say

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Speaker 5: that later they can assert that they did everything in

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Speaker 5: their power to find people that look like him and

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Speaker 5: who looks more like a person than their own brother.

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Speaker 1: And that's an interesting thing too, because I would this identification,

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Speaker 1: as everyone who listens to the show knows, is the

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Speaker 1: leading cause of wrongful conviction. And what we also know

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Speaker 1: is that in cases where there's a weapon involved and

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Speaker 1: someone is in close proximity and really fearing for their

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Speaker 1: life in a very real way, the instance of mistaken

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Speaker 1: identification goes up. And that's logical, right as an amateur psychologist,

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Speaker 1: if you're freaking out, literally like you're adrenaline is on,

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Speaker 1: you know ten, you know your mind's not going to

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Speaker 1: through function in the way that it would if you

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Speaker 1: were just calmly sitting here and just look at somebody.

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Speaker 1: But when someone's got a knife to your throat and

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Speaker 1: is either raping or attempting to rape you, your faculties

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Speaker 1: are not going to be operating in a normal passion,

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Speaker 1: to say the least. And so this case had that

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Speaker 1: as well, because the victims were in that exact situation.

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Speaker 3: Have you seen the Gorilla basketball video?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Okay, have you guys seen that?

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Speaker 3: The idea of being we just aren't able to focus

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Speaker 3: really clearly on a lot of things at once. So

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Speaker 3: if you haven't seen this, I'm completely going to ruin

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Speaker 3: it for you.

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Speaker 1: But no, just watch it. Everyone should watch.

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Speaker 3: It, right Google, It's on YouTube. A selective attention.

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Speaker 1: Test, Right, there's a selective attention test. It involves a

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Speaker 1: basketball I strongly recommend that everybody listening to the show

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Speaker 1: watched this because it'll give you an idea of just

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Speaker 1: how easy it is for your mind to play tricks

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Speaker 1: on you. So let's go back to the scene. Right.

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Speaker 1: So you end up now with this high priced, fancy lawyer, right,

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Speaker 1: and you didn't get what you paid for.

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Speaker 4: No, I didn't. He never visited where the crime happened.

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Speaker 4: He never interrogated witnesses or talked to the witnesses or

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Speaker 4: anything like that. We went to trial in March of

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Speaker 4: two thousand and four. Well before that, January fifth, nineteen

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Speaker 4: eighty four, the police came and arrested me again and

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Speaker 4: brought me down to the police station. I said, well,

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Speaker 4: what are you arresting me for. They wouldn't say anything,

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Speaker 4: and they handed me over to the Air Police department.

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Speaker 4: So they brought me back to Air and on the way,

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Speaker 4: I asked the cop you know what am I under

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Speaker 4: arrest for? She said, just shut up. So I asked

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Speaker 4: her again and she said just shut up. I says,

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Speaker 4: can you please tell me what I'm under arrest for?

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Speaker 4: And she said, well, you're under arrest for a rape

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Speaker 4: that happened at the Casa Mano Hotel. I said, where's

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Speaker 4: the Casa Mano Hotel? Because I never knew where it

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Speaker 4: was until two years ago when I went and spoke

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Speaker 4: in air and she said, well, you committed a rape there.

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Speaker 2: I said, no, I didn't.

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Speaker 4: And then they brought me in the air and put

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Speaker 4: my bail at fifty thousand dollars cash. So that was

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Speaker 4: my last day of freedom, was January fifth, nineteen eighty four.

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Speaker 4: And then we went through another lineup and I was

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Speaker 4: idd again. And in March of nineteen eighty four we

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Speaker 4: went to trial.

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Speaker 1: Going back to your lawyer. So your lawyer didn't visit

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Speaker 1: the crime scene, big red flag there, didn't interview the witnesses.

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Speaker 1: That seems even more insane. Okay, what else did he

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Speaker 1: forget to do or neglect to do?

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Speaker 4: I should say he didn't show up for some hearings

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Speaker 4: at the trial. He presented most of the case for

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Speaker 4: the prosecutor. You know, he's standing next to me. Are

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Speaker 4: you sure this is the person? Are you sure? There's

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Speaker 4: an point at me saying are you sure this is

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Speaker 4: the person who raped you? And of course I got

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Speaker 4: found guilty.

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Speaker 1: I mean you might as well just say are you

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Speaker 1: sure that this rapist is the one who raped you? Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean it's like I mean it's crazy, so it's incomprehensible.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Alex, jump in here because I'm freaking out.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, this is not does not sound like good lri that.

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Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about what good lawyering might have looked like,

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Speaker 1: because this is an unusual situation we have here where

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Speaker 1: we actually have somebody on the show who can give

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Speaker 1: us that type of idea.

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Speaker 5: I guess I'd break it down into two parts. In

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Speaker 5: terms of the identification, I think you have to remember that,

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Speaker 5: in terms of Lowell, the women were approached from behind.

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Speaker 5: You already mentioned the distraction of a weapon, a high

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Speaker 5: tense situation affecting the ability to accurately picture somebody and

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Speaker 5: recall it. For one, she had already seen the individual

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Speaker 5: that she would later pick out, because she had seen

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Speaker 5: him in a courtroom setting on a bench, and so

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Speaker 5: even if she just remembered that she would falsely identify him.

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Speaker 5: It also wasn't a double blind procedure, meaning that the

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Speaker 5: investigator ostensibly knew who she was trying to pick out,

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Speaker 5: put him in a unique setting within the lineup and

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Speaker 5: everything else. In addition, all of the witnesses were shown

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Speaker 5: photographs in which they identified as I understand it, mister Mayor,

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Speaker 5: before they viewed a live lineup, And so what often

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Speaker 5: happens is that you end up picking out the person

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Speaker 5: that you saw in the photo array, not necessarily the

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Speaker 5: person you saw on the night in question. And sort

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Speaker 5: of all of that, coupled with law enforcements, desire from

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Speaker 5: perhaps a very good place of trying to solve this crime,

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Speaker 5: can lead to a series of identification procedures not being

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Speaker 5: pristine and not being correctly done, and the taint from

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Speaker 5: one bleeds over into the next, because once he's identified

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Speaker 5: in these initial cases, the air case becomes a foregone conclusion,

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Speaker 5: and I think you have to attack that in all

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Speaker 5: of those different ways. I also think they used corroborative

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Speaker 5: evidence that is a bit of a red herring. They

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Speaker 5: see him in the vicinity near the time of the

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Speaker 5: initial rapes and Lowell, but the truth is he's from

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Speaker 5: that area. It's not like finding somebody in some remote

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Speaker 5: location or finding somebody far away from where they normally travel.

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Speaker 5: They see a knife and a jacket in his car,

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Speaker 5: but that's military issued, where that most of the men

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Speaker 5: in his age demographic in a military town might very

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Speaker 5: well have, and he might be wearing.

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Speaker 6: A red sweatshirt.

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Speaker 5: But as US folks from Boston know, a lot of

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Speaker 5: the sports teams there have red sweatshirt and I don't

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Speaker 5: think that is that unique of an item. And so

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Speaker 5: there were all of those things that needed to be investigated.

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Speaker 5: And on top of that, he had an alibi that

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Speaker 5: wasn't properly vetted, that could have been properly vetted that

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Speaker 5: would suggest he couldn't have been where they say that

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Speaker 5: he was. And the crimes themselves, the air crime versus

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Speaker 5: the lower crimes, don't have the same fact pattern and

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Speaker 5: don't necessarily suggest that the same person perpetrated them. And

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Speaker 5: that wasn't really tested or explored, and I think that

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Speaker 5: could have been used effectively to suggest law enforcement's tunnel vision.

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Speaker 1: Were any of these factors brought up by your attorney

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Speaker 1: at trial or at any other time.

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Speaker 4: Well, he brought up part of my alibi because where

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Speaker 4: I was at the base for the November sixteenth crime,

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Speaker 4: and they just dismissed it. They said, do you have

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Speaker 4: that and write And even though I had NCOs the

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Speaker 4: sergeants they are testifying on my behalf that they were

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Speaker 4: with me.

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Speaker 1: So the sergeants actually testified at trial and said that

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Speaker 1: you were there. Yeah, those would seem to be relatively

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about crackheads, right, We're talking about sergeants

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Speaker 1: in the ens United States Army who were saying this

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Speaker 1: guy was here. Again, I'm not a professor of metaphysics,

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Speaker 1: but you can't be in two places at one time.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knows that.

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Speaker 5: And the sarcists had a reason to remember, right. The

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Speaker 5: sergeant said that there had been a test failure and

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Speaker 5: that it was an intense meeting and so it wasn't

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Speaker 5: a standard meeting. It was a meeting that they would

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Speaker 5: have one would think remember, and they remembered him there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an excellent point again that a good defense

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Speaker 1: lawyer would have brought up. And this is very different

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Speaker 1: than some of the cases we see where a guy's

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Speaker 1: alibi or a woman's alibi is that they were home

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Speaker 1: with their parents watching TV or with their wife or something.

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Speaker 1: And then they say, wow, the life for anybody would

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Speaker 1: lie to protect their family. This is not family, right.

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Speaker 1: These guys are not your uncles or brothers or anything else.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are guys you work with, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: they were bitsed at you at this particular time. On

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Speaker 1: top of that. So that's just that's just nuts.

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Speaker 5: I think what the prosecutor may have countered is, even

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Speaker 5: if they were to be believed, he still had enough

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Speaker 5: time from five point fifteen to five thirty to make

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Speaker 5: to the scene. But of course, if you did your

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Speaker 5: job and you did an investigation, you would drive a

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Speaker 5: car from one location to another, and you would show

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Speaker 5: what the traffic patterns were at that time and show

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Speaker 5: that it was feasibly impossible. And so there was a

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Speaker 5: way to draw that out and tighten up that alibi

404
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Speaker 5: that it does not appear what's done.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean, and we'd also don't know how

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Speaker 1: long that meeting went on for. But how long would

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Speaker 1: it have taken you? Even if you had left immediately,

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Speaker 1: you had had to walk to get to your car,

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Speaker 1: you would have had to drive off the base. I

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Speaker 1: imagine there's some you know, some elapsed time there. And

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Speaker 1: then how long would it have taken you on a

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Speaker 1: typical day to drive from there to where the rape occurred.

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Speaker 2: Probably half hour to forty five minutes.

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Speaker 1: Case closed, right, I mean, that just doesn't match your honor.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't there because he was somewhere else.

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Speaker 5: One of the things is, you know, he was rested

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Speaker 5: so close in time, it's much easier to figure out

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Speaker 5: where you were since you were arrested within forty eight

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Speaker 5: hours of when the accusation was right. So the sergeant's

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Speaker 5: memories would have also been sharp. If he was arrested

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Speaker 5: two or three years later, one could say, you don't

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Speaker 5: really remember where you were in the night of November

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Speaker 5: fifteenth or sixteenth, But because it happened so close afterwards,

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Speaker 5: he really did have an independent memory, and so did

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Speaker 5: the other individuals that were interviewed.

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Speaker 1: Alex brings up a very good point, which is that

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Speaker 1: it's contemporaneous. It's like, right now, this is what happened,

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Speaker 1: this is where you were. You should be out of

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Speaker 1: there at that moment in time with any sort of

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Speaker 1: competent defense. What about the prosecutor at that point? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how does a prosecutor, having been a prosecutor, you obviously

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Speaker 1: have insight that nobody else that's ever been on this

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Speaker 1: show does. What is it that causes a prosecutor to

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Speaker 1: continue to prosecute somebody and I ultimately lock them up

435
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Speaker 1: or send them to death when they have real hard

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Speaker 1: evidence that it wasn't the guy well.

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Speaker 5: The notion that they had hard evidence may be a

438
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 5: bit of an over statement. I guess this is why

439
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 5: you need to have a strong defense, because what the

440
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 5: prosecutors seeing is multiple identifications and seeing evidence that's corroberative

441
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 5: put before him, right, and we went through the identification,

442
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 5: and we went through the corroboration, and when you peel

443
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 5: away at it, it doesn't seem as strong. Now, what

444
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 5: did he make of the alibi witnesses. I have a

445
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 5: feeling that he probably thought to himself, well, if he

446
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 5: left it, if he knew he was going to be

447
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 5: at that meeting, and he knew that the meeting was

448
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 5: over at five ish, it gave him exactly the right

449
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 5: amount of time, not just to little time, but exactly

450
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,200
Speaker 5: the right amount of time to both have a supposed

451
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 5: alibi and to commit the crimes in question. And so

452
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 5: he would take facts in the world that you might

453
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 5: look through a different lens at, and he would look

454
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 5: through them at a lens that he's guilty. I know

455
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 5: that he's guilty, So what else proves that he's guilty?

456
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 1: But in this case, as in many other rawful convictions,

457
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 1: there was no physical evidence connecting him to the crime.

458
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 5: But in the nineteen eighties, if you were to commit

459
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 5: a crime in the woods, there usually wasn't forensic evidence.

460
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 5: So the counter to that would be, you wouldn't expect

461
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 5: to find forensic evidence outdoors, and you wouldn't expect to

462
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 5: find videotape because it's not like New York in twenty seventeen,

463
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,679
Speaker 5: And you wouldn't expect to find DNA because it was

464
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 5: prior to the modernization of DNA technology.

465
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 6: And so what you have here is exactly what you'd

466
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:15,239
Speaker 6: expect to have.

467
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 5: You have a woman who is a credible witness who

468
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 5: swears under oath that he did it, and you have

469
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 5: other factors such as the clothing, the time and place,

470
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 5: and the repetition of the events, suggesting that he's a good.

471
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: Suspect, circumstantial but nonetheless enough to be able in a

472
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:35,239
Speaker 1: prosecutor's mind to rationalize the continued prosecution or persecution in

473
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: this case of somebody like you. So fast forward to

474
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 1: the trial. We know that this attorney mounted a feeble

475
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: would be a nice way of putting it. In competent

476
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 1: would probably be a better description of the representation. Horrible

477
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: and overpaid. Those are the ways I would describe the

478
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: defense that you received in this case, which is again typical.

479
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: The only thing that's not typical about is that most

480
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 1: of the peopleeople that are wrongfully convicted are represented by

481
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: public defenders. In this case, you had to pay for

482
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: the privilege of this guy acting like a prosecutor, which

483
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: is beyond reprehensible. It's disgusting. Ultimately, the jury goes out,

484
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 1: what were you feeling? I mean when they how long

485
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: did they deliberate for?

486
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 4: I think it was like two hours, an hour and

487
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 4: a half something like that. They didn't they didn't deliberate

488
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 4: a real long time.

489
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 1: No, that's a very short time. So again, it's an

490
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: unimaginable circumstance to anybody on the outside. What did you

491
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: think when they came back in? Did you think you

492
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: were going to be exonerate? You knew you were innocent.

493
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 4: I thought I was going to be found guilty because

494
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 4: of the way the lawyer represented me. Even though the

495
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 4: court office was saying, you're going to get found guilty.

496
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 4: I didn't feel that way because my lawyer was so horrible.

497
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 4: You know, I had visions of going to prison, being stabbed,

498
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 4: being raped, being beat up because it was a sex offense.

499
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: And you knew that those you know, typically those will

500
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: land you in real hot water once you get on

501
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: the inside. Yeah, so they come back and sure enough

502
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: they find you guilty.

503
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: I was. I was pissed, you know, and I stood

504
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: up in the courtroom.

505
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 4: Well, after you get found guilty, they asked if you

506
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 4: have anything to say. You know, I was a soldier,

507
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 4: you know, I was a defender of my country, and they.

508
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: Want to say that I did this.

509
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 4: So I got up and after the judge asked if

510
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 4: you had anything to say, of course I did. I said,

511
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 4: your honor, if you call this justice, I think when

512
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 4: you hold judicial system or a crock of shit.

513
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 2: And he doubled my sentence to twenty to thirty years.

514
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 4: Wow, because the DA years later told me that he

515
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 4: was going to give me a ten to fifteen. Then

516
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 4: I said that and he said to the clerk, did

517
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 4: you sign that yet? And he goes, no, he said

518
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 4: double the.

519
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: Sentence in front of you. Yeah, oh shit.

520
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 4: I didn't hear him say that, but the DA did,

521
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 4: and he told me later on that he heard and

522
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 4: tell the clerk to double the sentence.

523
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: And we know now that the DA had his own

524
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: doubts about this. Right, yes, and that I mean I

525
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 1: want to get into the prison experience. But your case

526
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: is unusual for another reason, which is that you actually,

527
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: ultimately twenty something years later, received an apology from the

528
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: person who actually put you in there. It seems like

529
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: this was a guy and it's hard to say based

530
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: on what we've just heard, but it seems like a

531
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: guy who actually had a conscience. Well it is a

532
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: guy at least he has one now, right, because he

533
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: tried to make amends to you, which is impossible to do,

534
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: but he tried, right, And this was the first case

535
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 1: that this guy had tried as a prosecutor, right.

536
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 4: See I believe it was his first case as a prosecutor.

537
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: Right, which is another factor, right, Alex, I mean as

538
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: the first case.

539
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 6: Even in the criminal realm.

540
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 5: I think for this to be your first case as

541
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 5: a prosecutor is a tricky one.

542
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: Now you get taken off to prison. Where were you

543
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: in prison? The first off was an an mci Walpole.

544
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: It's called cate of Junction now but it's smacked some

545
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: security and I went in there to be booked and

546
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: then they transfer me from there to Cockered that's where

547
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: they decide where they're going to send you where I

548
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: had a twenty to thirty, I would be behind the walls,

549
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: because anything over eighteen years you're going to do time

550
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: behind the walls. They call it behind the walls, being

551
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: maximum security. Right. So on top of the fact that

552
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: your sentence was doubled, and we know typically in a

553
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: rape case, you know, fifteen years would be the general

554
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: guideline that I've seen. But because you trying to stand

555
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: up for yourself and say something, which after what you'd

556
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: been through, I guess it's hard to follow you for

557
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: wanting to actually speak your mind. So this had another

558
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: negative consequence, not only doubling your sense, but putting you

559
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: in a more dangerous and worse in every imaginable way

560
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: facility than you would have been in otherwise. So you

561
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: end up in Walpole. Walpole, What can you tell us

562
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: about that? Because was it as bad as you expected

563
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: it to be? Was it?

564
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 2: Well?

565
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 4: When you first walk into the prison, you get down

566
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 4: a long hallway and you go through this big door

567
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 4: and the door slams behind you, and you're in a

568
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 4: it's probably twelve by twelve, with a god up the

569
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 4: top with a rifle in his hand, with a shotgun

570
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 4: in his hand until you go through the next which

571
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 4: takes you through the wall and you get into the

572
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 4: prison itself. And then as you go into the prison

573
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 4: you could smell the fear in the building. Most prisons

574
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 4: strive on fear, you know, fear that well, someone's going

575
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 4: to raid me, someone's going to stab me, and that

576
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 4: if I do it first, then no one's going to

577
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 4: do it to me. And that's the way prison works,

578
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 4: a lot of it, you know. And then I was

579
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 4: going in there as a sex offender and I didn't

580
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 4: know what was going to happen. I would go walk

581
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 4: in the yard and see other people getting beat up

582
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 4: that were sex offenders and stuff. And then I was

583
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 4: only there a couple of days, and then they took

584
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 4: me to conquer it, which was less stressful than Walpole.

585
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 4: But then when I got my life sentence, I went

586
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 4: back to Walpole and was going to ended up doing

587
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 4: almost a year there.

588
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 2: Right before I got back there.

589
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 4: There was a riot where they broke through one of

590
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 4: the walls, and for orientation, you go in and it's gas.

591
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 4: You could smell the gas still in the air from

592
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 4: when they had gassed the inmates. And they put me

593
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 4: on an Essex blocks, which was for people who were

594
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 4: prone to violence. They broke it down into Essex, Bristol

595
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 4: and Suffolk, which was Essex would be for the ones

596
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 4: who rarely acted up, Bristol would be for the lesser ones,

597
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 4: and then Suffolk would be even for lesser than that.

598
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 2: So while I was on Essex, I got cut.

599
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 4: I got three stitches hare and fourteen stitches across the

600
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 4: back of my neck. Because I was a sexophone. I

601
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 4: did really nothing wrong, but that's the way it was.

602
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: You know.

603
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 4: The guy called me down. I was talking to him

604
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 4: and he reached out and grabbed me. I had hair

605
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 4: down to my shoulders and he grabbed me by my

606
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 4: hair and pulled me up against the jail bars and

607
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 4: would a razor blade.

608
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: He cut me hair, and then I ducked down.

609
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 4: To get out of the way, and he sliced me

610
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 4: across the back of the neck. So I went back

611
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 4: up into my cell and I pushed the skin back

612
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 4: in and I reached behind my neck and my finger

613
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 4: went inside, and I says, well, I got to go

614
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 4: to the hospital. So I went downstairs and I said

615
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 4: to the CEO. I says, yeah, I got to go

616
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 4: down to the hospital. He goes why, I says, I

617
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 4: caught myself shaven. He didn't know that I had to

618
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 4: cut that was bleeding on the back of my neck.

619
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 4: He just knew I had the one here. And so

620
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 4: I went down there and they said what happened. I said, well,

621
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 4: I caught myself shaven. He says, well, we're not going

622
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 4: to do anything till you tell us what happened, you know,

623
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 4: And I'm saying, you know, I got this huge cut

624
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 4: on the back of my neck.

625
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: So I told him.

626
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 4: I says, yeah, the guy caught me and then he

627
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 4: stitched up my face with no no anesthesia or nothing,

628
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 4: just I could feel the thread going through my skin

629
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 4: and the needle going through my skin. He used anesthesia

630
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 4: on the back because it was so long. I did

631
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 4: another probably five months there, and there were fights all

632
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 4: the time, people getting stabbed. Christmas Eve, there was a

633
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 4: racial fight on the block between like ten people.

634
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: Early in January there was Blacks and the Muslims.

635
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 4: They hate each other in prison, and I walk into

636
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 4: chow hall, they run around on the table stabbing each other.

637
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 4: And so you just lean up against the wall and

638
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 4: hold your steel tray in front of you.

639
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: So that you can't get stabbed.

640
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: The day shield.

641
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the day that I was supposed to leave

642
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 4: there there were shots fight in the eyd because there

643
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 4: was going to be another race riot in the prison.

644
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 4: And finally I went to Gardner, which they called skin

645
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 4: a Mountain because all the sex offenders were there, and

646
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 4: so there it was less stressful and I could do

647
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 4: more things. I started lifting weights, and then while I

648
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 4: was there there was almost another race riot between the

649
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 4: blacks and the Porto rics. There was like one hundred

650
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 4: and fifty Puerto Ricans on top of the hill and

651
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 4: run the same amount of Blacks that were going to fight.

652
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 4: They evacuated the prison. Nothing happened. But and then from

653
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 4: there I went to the treatment center where I got

654
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 4: one day to natural life civil commitment, which was just

655
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 4: people supposedly in treatment. But while there they brought people

656
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 4: from the prison system down and one of them, who

657
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 4: was just about ready to get out, I mean he

658
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 4: was going to get he was going to minimum, he

659
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 4: would have been out within two months, he brutally raped

660
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 4: a woman and.

661
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: Which was horrible, you know, because I.

662
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 4: Worked in a staff kitchen, so I dealt with all

663
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 4: the staff and she was a really nice person.

664
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: Oh he raped someone in the prison.

665
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: He raped the staff member in the prison.

666
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 3: Wow.

667
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 4: You know, but in the prison people would get raped.

668
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 4: Not all the time, but you know, at least once

669
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 4: a tw a month, someone would get right by another guy.

670
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 2: You know.

671
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 4: I didn't because I lifted By then. I was benching

672
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 4: three point fifty and squatting five hundred pounds and nobody

673
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 4: bothered me, you know. And I treated everyone good, you know.

674
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 4: And I kept my job in the staff kitchen so

675
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 4: I could eat good. And when I left the staff kitchen,

676
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 4: they were disappointed because I was leaving because who was

677
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 4: going to cook for him?

678
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: Wow. It takes a minute to process all that. Let's

679
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,719
Speaker 1: get to the good part of the story. Let's call

680
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: it right where things start to turn around.

681
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 4: Well, in nineteen ninety four, I left work and was

682
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 4: heading back to the block and someone said, Dennis put

683
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 4: on the Phil Donahue Show, and Barry shak was on there.

684
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 4: He had like six or seven exonarees at that time.

685
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 4: It was either ninety three or ninety four, and he

686
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 4: was talking about how he had used DNA to prove

687
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 4: their innocence. And I knew the only way that I

688
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 4: was going to be proven innocent was through the use

689
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 4: of DNA. So my friend Bob Cameron, who has since died,

690
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 4: helped me find the address to Yeshiva University in the

691
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 4: Kadouza School of Law, and I wrote them a letter

692
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 4: asking for help. And I got a twenty six page

693
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 4: questionnaireback from them, and I filled all that out and

694
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 4: sent it back and I got another questionairback the same thing.

695
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 4: I guess they were going to compare it to see

696
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 4: if they were both the same, if I was just

697
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 4: making up stories. And then I got a letter back

698
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 4: from them asking for all my transcripts. Now you got

699
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 4: to imagine I hadn't had a lawyer since nineteen eighty five.

700
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: Nine years earlier.

701
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I wanted to keep things going on in

702
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 4: the court. Well, first, my lawyer got the spot when

703
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 4: I was at Walpole, so I had to learn how

704
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 4: to do a motion for appointment of counsel and motion

705
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 4: for indigency and whatever else I had to do to

706
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 4: get an appeals lawyer. So I got an appeals lawyer

707
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 4: and he didn't represent me the way I wanted him

708
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 4: to do. I wanted him to raise illegal search and

709
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 4: seizure because they went and broke into my car and

710
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 4: took evidence, but he wouldn't, so he just raised that

711
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 4: the two cases shouldn't have been tried together, and a

712
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 4: bunch of crap. And so I didn't have a lawyer

713
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 4: after that, so I learned to file things on my own.

714
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 4: I filed Rule thirties and whatever I could. I filed

715
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 4: the motion for a paternity test, just to see if

716
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 4: there was evidence that they could match against me. But

717
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 4: everything I ever filed had to go in front of

718
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 4: my sentence and judge, who didn't think kindly of me

719
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 4: because I told him him and this whole judicial system

720
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 4: were a crocod shit and he was a former marine.

721
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 4: So I send all the stuff to the Innocence Project,

722
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 4: which was probably twelve hundred pages of information between appeals

723
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 4: and motions and stuff like that, and they start looking

724
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 4: for evidence, and they called the police department, and they

725
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 4: called the courthouse asking for evidence, and they're telling him

726
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 4: the evidence is lost, the evidence is destroyed. And this

727
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 4: goes on for like three years, because you know that

728
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 4: the Innocence Project, the students come in and they work

729
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 4: on the cases and they try and find the evidence.

730
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 4: So in nineteen ninety seven, Barry had an attorney in

731
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 4: Boston file emotion for DNA testing in front of my

732
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 4: sentence and judge who denied it without a hearing, like

733
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 4: had denied everything else without a hearing.

734
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 2: So at that time I was hopeless.

735
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 4: You know, I made peace with myself that I was

736
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 4: going to die in prison as an innocent man.

737
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: And then out of the blue, a reporter.

738
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 4: From the Boston Globe named John Ellerman asked if he

739
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 4: could come interview me, so just as a piece of hope.

740
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 4: So I said, yeah, okay, you can interview me. And

741
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 4: we started talking about it, and finally I said to him,

742
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 4: I said, who's saying? He goes, oh, you know who

743
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 4: sent me. I says, no, I don't, and he says, well,

744
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 4: I was at Boston Superior Court and I saw J. W.

745
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: Connie.

746
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 4: Now this is the person who prosecuted me back in

747
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty four. And I said, Jay, you know, give

748
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: me someone to do an article on He goes, Now,

749
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 4: at this time, Jay was a private attorney, and he

750
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 4: had represented the guy who shot up an abortion clinic

751
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 4: in Boston and another guy who killed his wife. And

752
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 4: he says, I'll tell you what if I believe this

753
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 4: is right, and you do the article on this guy,

754
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 4: you may get a pula serprise out of it. So

755
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 4: he sent him to interview me, and so we were

756
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 4: talking and he says, here's a piece of news I'm

757
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 4: going to give you. Your judge's retiring in six months.

758
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 4: The day he retired, I called the New York Innocence

759
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 4: Project and asked if they could help me again, and

760
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 4: he said, I really shouldn't take this phone call, but

761
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 4: I will. What you need to do is contact the

762
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 4: New England Innocence Project at Testa, Heroitz and Tebow. So

763
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 4: I did that, and I contacted Neepe and they sent

764
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 4: me the twenty six page questionnaire, which I had to

765
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 4: fill out again. And then they asked me for all

766
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 4: my things I've ever filed, so I got to send

767
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 4: them another twelve hundred pages of stuff. And then all

768
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 4: of a sudden, the lawyer shows up and well, I

769
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 4: heading back to the walk and the lawyer says, may her,

770
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 4: you haven't an attorney visit? I said, I haven't had

771
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 4: an attorney in fifteen sixteen years. He says, well you

772
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 4: do now. So I went up and I met with

773
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 4: Eliza Kaplan and Karen Burns as you can imagine, I

774
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 4: was quite emotional because this is my hopes and dreams

775
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 4: coming together. And so we start talking and introducing ourselves

776
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 4: and then Eliza says to me, who's the cop the

777
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 4: trap this is?

778
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 2: I don't know why.

779
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 4: She says, well, when we came in, he asked who

780
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 4: we were. We told him Elisa Kaplan and Karen Burns.

781
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 4: He goes, where are you from? And we said the

782
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 4: New England Innocence Project and he goes, who are you

783
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 4: here to see? And they said Dennis Mayor, And the

784
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 4: god said it's about time. If anyone in here was innocent,

785
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 4: it's Dennis. So that was her introduction to me. So

786
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 4: they accepted the case and they start looking for evenants

787
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 4: and Karen's calling the courthouse and she's calling the police station.

788
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 4: They tell him that the evidence has been destroyed or lost.

789
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,479
Speaker 4: She says, well, do you have records of this being

790
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 4: destroyed a lost? And they said no. So Karen got

791
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 4: really frustrated at Cambridge Courthouse and she went knocking on

792
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 4: doors asking for help, and she found a clerk to

793
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 4: help her. Now, this clerk went down into the evidence

794
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 4: room and found the evidence, and so Eliza calls me

795
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 4: and says, we found the evidence. And she says, well,

796
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 4: you're not too excited. I says, well, I've had so

797
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 4: many downs that if something really good happens, then I'll

798
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 4: get excited. But was sending it to doctor Blake out

799
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 4: in California, who's one of the foremost forensic scientists in

800
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 4: the country, but he's not accepted by the government because

801
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 4: he hates the government. And so they sent that to him,

802
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 4: and then they came in to take my blood. So

803
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 4: they bring me down to HSU and they start talking

804
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 4: to me, and then in walks someone from the DA's office,

805
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 4: someone from the AG's office, an attorney for me, Karen Burns,

806
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 4: the superintendent of the prison, in a perimeterive security people

807
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 4: in a phlebotomist. So they did the chain of evidence.

808
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 4: They took my blood, took pictures of it, took a

809
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 4: mouth swab, took pictures of that, handed the evidence to

810
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 4: a state trooper who went back to the police lab,

811
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 4: handed it to the chemist who got on a plane

812
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,959
Speaker 4: and hand delivered it to doctor Blake because she didn't

813
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 4: want to do the testing because the evidence was so

814
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 4: old and the Lowell cases and so now I have

815
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 4: to wait so on Christmas Eve two thousand and two,

816
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 4: Eliza said to call her. So I called her. Now

817
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 4: she had moved from the New England Innocence Project to

818
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 4: New York. I called her about twenty five times and

819
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 4: there was no answer, and so I went outside to

820
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 4: cool off, you know, because she told me to call

821
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 4: her on Christmas Eve. And so I went back in

822
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 4: and the block office says, may her call your attorney.

823
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 4: I said, I've been calling her all day. So finally

824
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 4: I call her and I get a hold of her

825
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 4: and I said, where have you been. She says, oh,

826
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 4: we were out celebrating. I said, why, She goes, we

827
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 4: got two test results back today and the DNA's didn't match.

828
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 4: But they had to talk to the victims because they

829
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 4: had to find out if the victim had sex with

830
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 4: their boyfriend or whatever the night before. So now Matha

831
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 4: Coakley's got to go talk to the victim after nineteen

832
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 4: years until her she may have sent an innocent man

833
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 4: to prison. So they went and talked and she was

834
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 4: freaked out, which I don't blame it. You know, nineteen

835
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 4: years you on top of being raped, now you're being

836
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 4: told you may have sent an innocent and to prison.

837
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: That's got to be devastating.

838
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 4: So they went and saw her a second time and

839
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 4: she was still freaked out, but she gave him permission

840
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 4: to get the hospital wreckage, which can only be gotten

841
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 4: through a court order or permission from the victim. So

842
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 4: they gave her a permission and that ended up that

843
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: she was a virgin when she was raped. So now

844
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 4: I'm cleared of the Lowell cases. My twenty to thirty

845
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 4: per sentence is going to be gone, and I have

846
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 4: the air case. So they start looking for the air

847
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: evidence and they're getting the same run around. We don't

848
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 4: know where the evidence is. The evidence has been destroyed,

849
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 4: the evidence has been lost. So Matha Cokeley called Elizer

850
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 4: and said, do you want to make a deal. We'll

851
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 4: give them time served, and Eliza says no and had

852
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: some choice words for Matha Cochley that we're going to

853
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 4: prove he's innocent. And all of a sudden, a slide

854
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 4: shows up on Matha Cochley's desk from the case that

855
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 4: they've been looking for. So they sent the slide to

856
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 4: Maryland to be tested. So I called Eliza on April

857
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 4: Fool's Day and I said hi, and she says, when

858
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 4: do you want to go home? This is April Fool's Day.

859
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, the universe has a strange sense of humor, so

860
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: go ahead.

861
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 4: She says, no, when do you want to go home?

862
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 4: The test came back and they were two different DNAs

863
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 4: on it, and neither one of them was yours. I says, wow.

864
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 4: I says, well, you better make it Thursday because it's

865
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 4: going to take my parents at least a day to adjust.

866
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 4: And so I called my parents and told them. My

867
00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 4: mother says, I'm not going to be in the car room.

868
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 4: So I called back later on and she says, I

869
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 4: might be in the court room. And then I called

870
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 4: her the night before I was going to court and said,

871
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 4: and she goes, I'll be there. So on April third,

872
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 4: two thousand and three, I got my last strip search

873
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 4: went to Cambridge Courthouse in Boston. Now this Zacmbridge had

874
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 4: just opened. Traffic was a nightmare because all the roads

875
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 4: were dirt and everything else. We get to the courthouse.

876
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 4: They put me in a two man cell and they

877
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 4: had the tank on the right side, and there's a

878
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 4: guy in there whining ned he's getting a three to five.

879
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 4: So I told him, well, we just shut up. I'm

880
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 4: going home after doing nineteen years and I'm proven innocent.

881
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 4: I never heard another peep out of her. So I

882
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 4: went up to the courtroom. Eliza reads her motion. I

883
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 4: had told her, I said, you need to file a

884
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 4: motion to get rid of the civil sentence.

885
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: She says why, I said, just do it. So she

886
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 2: files all the motions.

887
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 4: Martha Cokeley says we're not going to oppose this, and

888
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 4: Judge says, all I have to do is sign this

889
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 4: and he can go home. And he said yeah. She says, well,

890
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 4: I'm signing he can leave. So I went back in.

891
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 4: They took the ankle chains off, they took the waist

892
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 4: chains off, and they let me go. I walked out

893
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 4: the first door and met with my parents, went to

894
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 4: the second door and met with my brothers and friends.

895
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 4: Walked out the third door into five TV cameras, about

896
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 4: fifteen microphones, and of course their first question was how

897
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 4: do you feel? You want to say, how do you

898
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 4: think I feel? And here comes a leiser and she says, well,

899
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 4: there's going to be a press conference at Tester Hurwitz

900
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 4: and Tebow at noontime and we'll see us all there.

901
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 4: And then I as I was leaving the Senior Caught office,

902
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 4: comes over and says, JW. Connie would like to speak

903
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 4: with you. That's the prosecutor, the former prosecutor, And so

904
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 4: we met in the hallway and he apologized.

905
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: And asked for forgiveness. So I forgave.

906
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 4: Him, which had a huge effect on me because I'm

907
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 4: not angry, you know, I'm not bitter. Afterwards, Jay told

908
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 4: me that if I didn't forgive him, he might have

909
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 4: stopped being a lawyer, and it still affects him to

910
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 4: this day because he told me he was in his

911
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 4: office one day and Barryshak called him and said, Dennis

912
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 4: May has just been clear and lowell, he said. So

913
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 4: I sat at my desk and cried, and he told

914
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 4: me that he called him again and said, Dennis May

915
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 4: has gone home Thursday. What I didn't know is that

916
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 4: before I got there, he went and apologized to my

917
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 4: parents and my brothers, which was my brothers are still angry.

918
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 4: And that's when I went home.

919
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: Alex, it's hard to say anything after hearing that story.

920
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: But since we have you here, you can't get a

921
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: better spokesman for the cause than Dennis. For people listening,

922
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: what kind of insight can you bring.

923
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'll start at the end,

924
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 5: which is with the prosecutor. You know, I think this

925
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 5: is a very good case example because I think we've

926
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 5: become too focused on the rogue actor, or focusing on

927
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 5: that there are bad players in the system, because those

928
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 5: variables affect.

929
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 6: All systems and all walks of life.

930
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 5: The prosecutor in this case clearly did the honorable thing,

931
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 5: and I think that prosecutors by and large are honorable

932
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 5: and are trying to do the right thing. And if

933
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 5: you start with that premise rather than the premise of

934
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 5: this is good versus evil in one direction or another,

935
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 5: you start to be able to unwind. Where are the

936
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 5: implicit biases in the system, Where are the false positives?

937
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 6: Where are the errors?

938
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 5: And this is a good example of that because I

939
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 5: don't think he, knowing what I know, did this on purpose.

940
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 5: And if you can get past that, I think you

941
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 5: can look at it with a deeper lens. My other

942
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 5: reaction initial reaction is this man is a hero, and

943
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 5: that the work that the Innocence Project is remarkable not

944
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 5: just for setting people free, but because it creates a

945
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 5: system of checks and balances and creates good law and

946
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 5: creates people asking the hard questions. But then at the

947
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 5: end of the day, I go back to being a

948
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 5: trial lawyer, and I look at the facts of this case,

949
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 5: and there's only DNA in so many cases, and only

950
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 5: so many letters get read, and only so many people

951
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 5: can get exonerated. If everybody in the first instance would

952
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 5: fight smart and hard for everybody accused of crimes, I

953
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 5: think that that would create the best checks in the system.

954
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 5: And you know, hearing this case and going back and

955
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 5: I'll start with.

956
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 6: The man that mister Mayor is.

957
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 5: You know, he's you can just tell that he's a

958
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 5: good person by being around him. And he was a

959
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 5: family man at the time, still living with his parents

960
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 5: when most twenty year olds weren't. He was a soldier

961
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 5: when most of us wouldn't be. He had never been

962
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 5: in trouble before when many of us had been.

963
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 6: And I don't know if the story of him as

964
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 6: a person was told, because when.

965
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 5: You think about it, he makes an awfully unlikely suspect

966
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 5: if you really get into his humanity, and to the

967
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 5: lawyers defending people and advocating on the ground, you have

968
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 5: to look at that alibi and not just throw it

969
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 5: into a courtroom, but really firm it up, because that

970
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 5: could have just like DNA can now essentially prove innocence

971
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 5: because of the metaphysical comment you made earlier. And I

972
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 5: would have called other soldiers.

973
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 6: I would have.

974
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 5: Impressed the fact that while Vlahm might have a meeting

975
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 5: where he shows up around five, when military folks say

976
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 5: that he didn't leave the base until seventeen twenty, that

977
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 5: means five twenty, and it means precisely five twenty.

978
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 6: And there's probably a.

979
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 5: Logbook that could have been used to show what time

980
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 5: he actually physically checked out.

981
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 6: And then the next thing, you know, it's not.

982
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 5: All the resources and the tiers and the decades behind bars.

983
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 5: It's an acquittal because he couldn't have done it. And

984
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 5: so those are the things I focus on and that

985
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 5: I come back.

986
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 6: To in the end.

987
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: But what do we do? Because I've always said that

988
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: I believe most cops are good cops, and most prosecutors

989
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: are good prosecutors. But the ones that aren't they wreck

990
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: a path of destruction that is wide and big and

991
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: devastating to so many people. But there are a number

992
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: of systemic problems, right, I mean, it's easy for us

993
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: to sit here and say this is what should have

994
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: been done, this is what could have been done. The

995
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: system is stacked against Dennis, right, It was stacked against Dennis.

996
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: It's stacked against guys like Dennis. Today. Somebody's being wrongfully

997
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: convicted in America. Hopefully it's only one person, right, What

998
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: can we do? What can people listening do to help

999
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: prevent these things from happening, to prevent the next Dennis

1000
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: Mayor from ever having to go through this.

1001
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 5: To me, it all goes back to the role of

1002
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 5: the prosecutor. There are tens of thousands of NYPD officers.

1003
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 5: You're going to have good ones, you're going to have

1004
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 5: bad ones. But the office that oversees them, which is

1005
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 5: a politically accountable office, or the offices of the district attorney.

1006
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 5: And when I say politically accountable, I don't mean to

1007
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,919
Speaker 5: suggest that any of them are doing anything wrong. It's

1008
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 5: just they are political positions, and the will of the

1009
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 5: public and what people think and concerns people have certainly

1010
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,479
Speaker 5: do influence those offices. And those offices have to serve

1011
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 5: as checks and balances not only on the police department,

1012
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 5: but on themselves. And it's very easy to put a

1013
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 5: lot into a case. The adversary process is competitive. You

1014
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 5: do want to win, you do think you are on

1015
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 5: the right side of things, and so it's easy to

1016
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 5: get caught up on that and not pause and say,

1017
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 5: are we sure not pause, especially after a jury says

1018
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 5: he's guilty, to not go back and look at it,

1019
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 5: and it can create a wall, a wall between accountability

1020
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 5: and the prosecutors, and a wall in the person's own

1021
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 5: mind that doesn't allow them to sort of self assess

1022
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 5: and learn from these mistakes.

1023
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 1: But there's so much more awareness now. It's at a peak.

1024
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 1: Right now, we see the rise of conviction integrity units.

1025
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: We're starting to see some public activism in terms of

1026
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: throwing bad prosecutors out of office, right because ultimately you

1027
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: can vote, and I think that's one sort of activism

1028
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: that's very simple. Then it's before we sign off, and

1029
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: this is for you too, Hannah. You've spoken so eloquently

1030
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 1: and so powerfully about your experience, the tragedy, ultimately the

1031
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: triumph the grace that you've shown is just sort of

1032
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: mind blowing to me and I'm sure to everyone who's listening.

1033
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: Is there anything else that either of you would like

1034
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: to share with our audience.

1035
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 3: Sure, the vast majority of prosecutors and police are just human.

1036
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 3: You know, this is a human system. Like any other

1037
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 3: human system, there is going to be fault. And I

1038
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 3: find it really interesting that with other human run systems,

1039
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 3: aviation and medicine are good examples, people expect mistakes to happen. So,

1040
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 3: you know, at a hospital, if a patient dies in

1041
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 3: somebody's care, they're going to have an eminem conference. They

1042
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 3: have all the people who worked on the case get

1043
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 3: together and they pinpoint where a mistake was made. It's

1044
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 3: not blaming, it's saying, you're a human, you did your best,

1045
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: something went wrong. We're going to use this as a

1046
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 3: learning moment. And because of these things, the aviation field

1047
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 3: the medical field have improved hugely. We don't really have

1048
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 3: something like that in the legal field right now. And

1049
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 3: Alex maybe you can attest to this, but that lawyers

1050
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 3: and especially people who are going to go into prosecution

1051
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 3: are told you're going to run fully convict someone. You know,

1052
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 3: they're expected somehow to not be human, to not make mistakes,

1053
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 3: and when they do make mistakes, they're often covered up.

1054
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 3: It's seen as shameful. The incentives justice is a moving

1055
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 3: target and it's kind of an ethereal concept. Whereas a

1056
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 3: conviction is something that you can count, it actually takes

1057
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 3: a pretty rare case to have enough evidence to be

1058
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 3: really fool proof. You know, we forget that obviously it's

1059
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 3: innocent until proven guilty. A lot of people think that

1060
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 3: even if you get to the point of a trial,

1061
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 3: like they must have done something to get there. And

1062
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 3: I think the fact that most cases don't have DNA

1063
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 3: like we talked about, you know, the vast majority of

1064
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 3: wrongful convictions are probably people who were forced to take

1065
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: guilty please at a misdemeanor level.

1066
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: Right with Dennis, I don't know that there's really what

1067
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: could somebody add to what you've already said, but I

1068
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 1: want to turn it over to you to wrap up

1069
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: this episode of wrongful conviction.

1070
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 4: Well for us, I want to say hi to my

1071
00:52:54,920 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 4: kids and my wife names Melissa, Joshua and Elie's she's

1072
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 4: named after the women who got me out.

1073
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:05,959
Speaker 1: Wow.

1074
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: What can people do to help?

1075
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 4: There are a lot of bills and there's different states

1076
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 4: that are trying to get passed. They can call the

1077
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 4: a politician or they can go on the state house

1078
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 4: website and look up the bills and talk about that

1079
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 4: and tell them that they want to get behind it

1080
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 4: so that their senators or representatives would vote to make changes.

1081
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 4: You know, there's preserving evidence. We already changed witness identification

1082
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 4: in Massachusetts, which I was involved with, and things like

1083
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 4: that that can help.

1084
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 2: You know.

1085
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 4: I do a lot of public speaking. I speak at colleges.

1086
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 4: I'm going to go speak at a high school next week.

1087
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: How could people reach you if they want you to

1088
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: come and speak? Do you have a website? Do you

1089
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 1: have a contact that you want to share with the audience.

1090
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 3: Honestly, if you want to have Dnis come to anything,

1091
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: you can email me directly because I would love to

1092
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 3: make that happen.

1093
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: What's your email?

1094
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 3: Hiley at New England Innocence dot org.

1095
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: And that's Ri Ri I l E y okay, Dennis. Well,

1096
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: all I can say is I really appreciate you being here.

1097
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: Same for you Alex and Hannah. It's been an extraordinary

1098
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: experience being with you. All I can tell you is

1099
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: we'll never stop fighting. You give us just more and

1100
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 1: more inspiration from just being yourself, So keep being you.

1101
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 7: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1102
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 7: get your podcasts.

1103
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

1104
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: Ennessis Project and I really hope you'll join me in

1105
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

1106
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how

1107
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

1108
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in

1109
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

1110
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

1111
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

1112
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

1113
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one