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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How can a five year old,

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Speaker 1: a little girl go missing for weeks before anyone notices?

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Speaker 1: Why are all the documents surrounding the search for this

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Speaker 1: five year old little girl, at her history being kept

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Speaker 1: shrouded in secrecy? Where is Oakley Carlson? I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious x one eleven where

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Speaker 1: we still care about unsolved thomasides and missing people, especially children.

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Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to this. We've asked

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Speaker 1: help from numerous search and rescue groups to come search

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Speaker 1: the entire property, which is hundreds of acres. Investigators with

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Speaker 1: a Grays Harbor share of Solvis as well as Washington

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Speaker 1: State Patrol and b FBI we're seeing searching the sprawling

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Speaker 1: property Wednesday afternoon. Johanson believes people within nearby communities maybe

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Speaker 1: just is helpful. We're hoping that somebody might have a

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Speaker 1: little bit of information that can shed light on the

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Speaker 1: location of Oakley and how she is. Johansson's investigators are

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Speaker 1: also trying to learn more about Bowers and Carlson, all

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Speaker 1: in an effort to find Oakley. If you know where

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Speaker 1: Oakley is at Please call nine one immediately if you

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Speaker 1: have seen Oakley with her parents or even in other locations,

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Speaker 1: we want to call. We want to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: We want to know what you know so that we

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Speaker 1: can get as much information as we can to hopefully

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Speaker 1: locate Oakley safe. You're not only hearing local law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: you are hearing our friends at King five. How did

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Speaker 1: this little girl go missing? The search now is honing

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Speaker 1: in on various areas to no avail what happened? Where

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Speaker 1: is Oakley? With me and All Star Pale to make

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Speaker 1: sense of what we know right now? But first I

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Speaker 1: want to go to a very special guest joining us.

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Speaker 1: This is Oakley's foster mom, Jamie Joe Hyles. Miss Hayles,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for having me on the show. Nancy, Miss Hyles. I

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Speaker 1: find it very very I don't know the right word, moving, probative, heartbreaking,

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Speaker 1: gut wrenching. When you discovered that we hear at crime stories,

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Speaker 1: we're searching, our searching for Oakley. You reached out, You

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Speaker 1: are looking for Oakley. You want to be heard, and

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Speaker 1: that tells me that this little girl was and is loved, deeply.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for that. Tell me how

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Speaker 1: did Oakly come into your life? So I am a

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Speaker 1: high school teacher and one day in twenty seventeen, I

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Speaker 1: had a former student to text me and my husband

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Speaker 1: and I have struggled with infertility for about ten years,

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Speaker 1: and that former student knew that we wanted a child,

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Speaker 1: and she said, hey, my hairdresser as a grand baby

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Speaker 1: needs a home. It's probably gonna lead to adoption. Are

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Speaker 1: you interested? It was a very unconventional way to become

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Speaker 1: a foster parent or a parent. But I just looked

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Speaker 1: at my husband, who was sitting next to me on

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Speaker 1: the couch, and I was like, let's do it. And

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Speaker 1: then a couple weeks later we had Oakley with us. Okay,

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Speaker 1: slow it now, because that sounds like I made for

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Speaker 1: TV movie. It does. You're in this fantastic high school teacher.

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Speaker 1: What do you teach? So I teach like a senior

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Speaker 1: class on how to do job interviews and like how

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Speaker 1: to apply for college, and I also teach a business

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Speaker 1: English And out of the blue, you after trying to

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Speaker 1: have a child for years, you get a call that says,

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Speaker 1: my grandmother's what hairstylists? How did it go my hairdresser's

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Speaker 1: grand baby needs at home. So this girl's hairdresser, I

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Speaker 1: guess must have been telling her when she was getting

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Speaker 1: her hair done, like hey, like, if you know anybody,

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Speaker 1: and this students former student immediately thought of me and

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Speaker 1: my husband Eric. Well, first of all, I praised the

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Speaker 1: Lord in Heaven that you entered into the picture. That providence, serendipity,

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Speaker 1: the Lord had his hand on you and you got

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Speaker 1: to have Oakley. But I also find it kind of weird.

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Speaker 1: It's like somebody says, hey, my cat just had kittens,

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Speaker 1: you want one? Yeah, Or I've got one cat left,

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Speaker 1: or one puppy left, you want it. It's kind of weird.

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Speaker 1: And for the moment, wonderful that this happened and baby

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Speaker 1: Oakley fell in your lap. You know, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: tell you, not a lot of parents, not a lot

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Speaker 1: of adults would just take on a baby because they go, oh,

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Speaker 1: was the mom on drugs? Was the mom drinking during pregnancy?

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Speaker 1: Though I'm going to have these problems. You took Oakley

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Speaker 1: with an open heart, did you not? Oh? Definitely. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about the first time you saw Oakley

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Speaker 1: in Parson Yeah? Yeah, So I remember we talked with

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Speaker 1: a friend that had taken Oakley into like the emergency care,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of times in foster care, you might

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Speaker 1: go into an emergency placement just for a temporary time

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Speaker 1: until your place into a more like permanent situation. And

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Speaker 1: so the gal that had her in the emergency placement

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Speaker 1: situation brought her over to my house, and knowing that

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Speaker 1: we were going to probably get Oakle to come live

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Speaker 1: with us, Like I knew that she was close to

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Speaker 1: like the nine months size, or like I imagine that

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Speaker 1: she was close to the nine months size, And when

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Speaker 1: she came over the very first time, she was like

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Speaker 1: a very healthy, like size twenty four months baby, quite

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Speaker 1: a bit bigger than I was expecting. And I remember

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Speaker 1: just thinking, like, she is so cute and I have

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Speaker 1: to go buy all new clothes because I totally bought

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Speaker 1: the wrong clothes. And she just was so happy and

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Speaker 1: just I mean not not afraid of us at all

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Speaker 1: from day one, just beautiful, happy and just an overall

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Speaker 1: like easy, good, good baby. I'm just taking in everything

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Speaker 1: that you're saying. And how old was Oakly when you

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Speaker 1: got her? So I first met her at about like

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Speaker 1: seven months and then she came to us like on

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Speaker 1: the books with the state at eight months old. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about her little personality. Oh my gosh, she was

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Speaker 1: such a joy. She always was smiling, She was kind,

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Speaker 1: you know. I didn't ever have to tell her like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know that's not nice. We don't hit, because she

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Speaker 1: just if it happened once, she knew not to do

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Speaker 1: it again. We just were really big on kindness. And

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Speaker 1: I felt like she emulated that. She was funny, she

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Speaker 1: enjoyed making people laugh. I felt like she didn't really

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Speaker 1: know any strangers. I coach a dance team at the

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Speaker 1: high school where I teach, and she just knew all

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Speaker 1: of my dance team members by name. She would go

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Speaker 1: up to them if she came to practice with me,

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Speaker 1: and she would ask them questions. Or she would go

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Speaker 1: sit with with a team as they stretched. She just

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Speaker 1: wasn't a stranger to anybody. Did you want to keep forever? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: And the sad thing is is that, like she she

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Speaker 1: would tell me like, I want to stay with you forever.

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Speaker 1: I want to stay with you and Daddy forever. And

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Speaker 1: that's really hard because I would I would never have

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Speaker 1: talked poorly about her biological parents or anybody to her.

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Speaker 1: But I also I did tell her, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you you didn't grow in my belly, but you grew

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Speaker 1: in my heart. So she was very aware that she

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Speaker 1: was not biologically mine, but that I would have loved

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Speaker 1: to have had her stay with us. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if that opportunity had come up, we absolutely would have

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Speaker 1: adopted her with no questions asked. You know, there's just

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Speaker 1: something about it. Jamie Joe hyles, Jamie Joe is, oh,

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Speaker 1: please foster mom, and desperately, desperately wanted to keep Oakley forever,

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Speaker 1: you know, the other morning, and I do it to

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Speaker 1: my son too, But just this morning, I hugged my

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Speaker 1: daughter so tight and was thinking, oh, I want you

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Speaker 1: with me forever. And I've said it, but then I

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Speaker 1: quit saying because I don't want them to thank gee.

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Speaker 1: I don't want them to grow up and go to

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Speaker 1: college and be successful and have their own life. But

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Speaker 1: I really secretly do want them to stay with me forever,

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Speaker 1: because there's just nothing like a mother's love. I mean,

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Speaker 1: not discounting my husband's love. I'm sure it's wonderful of it.

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Speaker 1: I just can't imagine anything more powerful of an earthly

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Speaker 1: nature than a mother's love. There's nothing like it. Just

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Speaker 1: did you ever feel like you were just completely in

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Speaker 1: love with Oakley? Oh? I felt like something weird happened

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Speaker 1: and that she was biologically my child and I just

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Speaker 1: like didn't even know it because the connection that we

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Speaker 1: had was so strong and it just was, you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously like I would do anything for Oakley, and I

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Speaker 1: still would do anything for Oakley. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: my love for her is undying, and there were no

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Speaker 1: limits or bounds or anything for her. I just am

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Speaker 1: so grateful that I got to even experience her time

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. What half Jamie Joe, Why isn't

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Speaker 1: she with you right now? How did you somehow lose

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Speaker 1: O's a really good question. Honestly, I know it's because

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Speaker 1: Washington State Department of Children Using Families. I know in

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Speaker 1: the beginning of Oakley's case that there was a misstep

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Speaker 1: done by Oakley's social worker, and because something wasn't filed

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Speaker 1: or something wasn't said correctly, Oakley's biological mother basically got

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Speaker 1: to appeal the decision for dependency, and this went to

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Speaker 1: a different court, and once it went to a different

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Speaker 1: court and it was overturned. That then reset the clock.

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Speaker 1: So instead of us having this like two and a

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Speaker 1: half year time with Oakley, the state then started to

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Speaker 1: view it as the clock starting over at six months,

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Speaker 1: and if the parents have their things together there within

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Speaker 1: those six months, that returned home to the biological parents begins.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the day they took oakwaya why? Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, yes, what happened? So it was the day

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Speaker 1: after Thanksgiving in twenty nineteen, and so obviously Thanksgiving was

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Speaker 1: very sad for us that year because you know, we

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Speaker 1: knew it was a goodbye to all of our families.

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Speaker 1: And so the day that Oakley went home, we were

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Speaker 1: told that a driver would come by at ten am

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Speaker 1: and pick both Oakley and her belongings up. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: my husband and I we just tried to have a normal,

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Speaker 1: a normal morning with her, and obviously my husband Eric

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Speaker 1: and I were upset. We were kind of cheery eyed

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Speaker 1: through most of the day, and she didn't understand why,

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Speaker 1: even though we had tried to explain to her like

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Speaker 1: what was happening, but it was just very emotional. And

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Speaker 1: then finally, at you know, ten o'clock, the driver showed up,

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Speaker 1: and that's, you know, just something I think I'll ever

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Speaker 1: forget because I hugged her so tightly. I just didn't

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Speaker 1: want to let her go. And then I passed her

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Speaker 1: to Eric, and Eric hugged her, and then I grabbed

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Speaker 1: her again and I hugged her, and you know, of

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Speaker 1: course we're crying, and she's just telling me, like, grown

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Speaker 1: ups come back, It's okay, Like it's okay. She's quoting

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Speaker 1: Daniel Tiger to me, knowing that that's what I do

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Speaker 1: to her when she would get scared. And I just

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Speaker 1: was so sad because I just knew that this would

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Speaker 1: be the last time I'd ever see her. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean grown ups come back? There's a really amazing

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Speaker 1: song from the Daniel Tiger Show that Oakley just loved.

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Speaker 1: It's modeled after Daniel I guess Daniel Lagers neighborhood, but

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Speaker 1: and it is a song called grown Ups come Back.

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Speaker 1: So when a child is anxious that maybe they're left

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Speaker 1: with a babysitter or like their parents stepped away for

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Speaker 1: a little bit and they're at daycare, there's a song

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Speaker 1: called grown Ups come Back. And I would always sing

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Speaker 1: into Oakley and just remind her like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: come back. I'll get you, like, don't worry, and that

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Speaker 1: would kind of always calm her nerves when I was

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Speaker 1: leaving to go to school, or you know, if I

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Speaker 1: had to, like when I took her to dance class

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Speaker 1: for the first couple of months and left the studio,

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Speaker 1: I would always just remind her, like, grown ups come back.

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Speaker 1: So you know, here she is trying to use my

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Speaker 1: own calming technique on me and tell me, like grown

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Speaker 1: ups come back. It's okay, everything's okay. So it was

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Speaker 1: a really emotional time. And then we drove off and

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Speaker 1: we shut the door, and when upstairs shut her bedroom

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Speaker 1: door for about six or seven months, and that was

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Speaker 1: kind of it. Just hearing you, it makes me feel

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Speaker 1: sick to my stomach the thought of someone taking your

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Speaker 1: child and you just shut the door and try to

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Speaker 1: shut off that part of your life. I just take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at crime online dot com.

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Speaker 1: Oakley Carlson is just eight months old when she's placed

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Speaker 1: with foster parents Jamie Joe and Eric Yles. Over the

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Speaker 1: next two years, the little girl becomes part of the family,

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Speaker 1: but then November twenty nineteen, Washington's Department of Children, Youth,

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Speaker 1: and Family reunites Carlson with her biological parents, Jordan Bowers

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Speaker 1: and Andrew Carlson. Nine months later, Oakley is missing, but

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Speaker 1: no one knows. Okay, let me understand with me an

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Speaker 1: all star panel to make sense of what we know

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Speaker 1: right now. Suddenly Oakley goes missing to Stephanie Pogonis joining

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Speaker 1: US investigative crime reporter with Fox News Digital. Stephanie How

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Speaker 1: long after baby Oakley leaves her foster mom, Jamie Joe

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Speaker 1: Hiles and is returned to her bio mom and dad

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Speaker 1: does she get missing? So, as we just discussed, Oakley

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Speaker 1: was returned to a biological family and no November twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Fast forward about a year. December twenty fifth, twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: Christmas Day, Oakley's grandparents saw Oakley and they reported that

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Speaker 1: she didn't look well. They say she had dark circles

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Speaker 1: under her eyes, pale skin, and that she had stores

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Speaker 1: and scratches on her face. Fast forward again to February

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. That's when someone who was close to

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Speaker 1: the family reports that she was last seen alive. Before this,

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Speaker 1: investigators had thought Oakley was last seen on January twenty

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Speaker 1: seventh of that year, so this advanced the story about

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. Okay, hold on, she Oakley leaves

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Speaker 1: Jamie Joe Hyles win Jamie Joe November of twenty nineteen. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's right, the day after Thanksgiving. And then when did

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Speaker 1: the grandparents see her? The grandparents saw her on Christmas

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Speaker 1: Day twenty twenty, so December twenty fifth, twenty twenty, so

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Speaker 1: one year later. She was pale with dark circles on

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Speaker 1: twenty one. Who saw her? February ten, twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: Someone who was associated with the family saw her, although

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Speaker 1: police have not specifically identified that person, and that is

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Speaker 1: the last person who was believed to have seen her.

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Speaker 1: Where was she when she was saying in February of

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Speaker 1: twenty one, Stephanie pagonies that's unclear at this time, or

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Speaker 1: at least police have not provided too many specifics regarding

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Speaker 1: that time. What happened between Thanksgiving twenty nineteen and Christmas

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, just one year later, one year of living

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Speaker 1: with her bioparents, Jordan Bowers and Andrew Carlson. We may

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Speaker 1: never know, but I do know this. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friend Jennifer Leott Fox thirteen under Sheriff Brad

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Speaker 1: Johansson says, Bowers and Carlson claim they last saw Oakley

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Speaker 1: alive on November thirtieth. Investigators also questioned Oakley's nine year

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Speaker 1: old brother, who said, quote Jordan would put Oakley in

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Speaker 1: the closet, possibly under a stairwell, and has witnessed Jordan

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Speaker 1: beat Oakley with a belt and has been worried about

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Speaker 1: her starving. And Oakley's six year old sister said, during

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Speaker 1: a forensic interview with a child advocate, quote, her mother

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Speaker 1: Jordan had told her not to talk about Oakley, she

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Speaker 1: had gone out into the woods and had been eaten

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Speaker 1: by wolves. After interviewing the parents and the children involved,

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Speaker 1: one of the child involved as a six year old female,

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Speaker 1: and she advised that her sister was no longer around

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Speaker 1: because she was eaten by wolves? Did mommy say that?

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Speaker 1: To Sarah Ford joining us Special Guest Legal to rect

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Speaker 1: to her South Carolina Victim's Assistants Network, adjunct Professor at

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Speaker 1: Coughlin University at South Carolina State, Sarah Ford, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Sarah. In many codified areas of

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Speaker 1: the law, it should mean. What I mean by that

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Speaker 1: is not just case law. It's actually in the criminal

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Speaker 1: code children's testimony is equated and I quote, with imbeciles. I, however,

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Speaker 1: have found that child witnesses are some of the most

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Speaker 1: believable witnesses I have ever put on the stand ever,

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Speaker 1: because they do not necessarily have the wherewithal July or

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Speaker 1: be as cunning as the adult human of the species.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear what the little brother said, that Oakley

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Speaker 1: will be put in a closet under the stairwell, that

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Speaker 1: the bio mom beat Oakley with a belt, and that

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Speaker 1: in another interview, a six year old sister said, mom,

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Speaker 1: biomom Jordan Bowers told the children, don't speak of Oakley.

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Speaker 1: She went in the woods and was eaten by wolves.

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Speaker 1: You know what, I bet a jury would believe for

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Speaker 1: Sarah Ford. I bet they would too, Nancy. You know,

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Speaker 1: for children to go into a forensic interview, you know,

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Speaker 1: the counselor who's doing the interview is trained to talk

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Speaker 1: with these child not to lead them, not to guide them,

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Speaker 1: but to let the children, um, you know, lead the discussion.

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Speaker 1: And for these kids to come out and say these

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Speaker 1: things during this forensic interview is alarming and startling and

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Speaker 1: completely just it's mind blowing that they have not been

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Speaker 1: able to gather any more evidence to actually prosecute these

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Speaker 1: parents for at minimum child abuse towards for Jokeley, child neglect,

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Speaker 1: ending in obvious death hold on doctor Bethany Marshall. Right now,

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Speaker 1: I just want to snap both the parents heads off.

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Speaker 1: I swear if I could get my hands on them,

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Speaker 1: I would try and ring there next, Jamie Joe Hyles,

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Speaker 1: before I go to our renowned psycho analyst, doctor Bethany Marshall.

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Speaker 1: When did you hear this fabrication that after Oakley's missing,

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Speaker 1: that she had gone into the wolves, gone into the

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Speaker 1: woods and been eaten by wolves right there in Washington.

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Speaker 1: So on December sixth, twenty twenty one, that's when I

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Speaker 1: received a phone call from the Department of Children Using

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Speaker 1: Families asking if I could take Oakley's little brother and

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Speaker 1: when they found Oakley, if I could also take her in,

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Speaker 1: which of course that's an absolute yes. So I didn't

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Speaker 1: know that it was to this level of Oakley like

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Speaker 1: being missing. I thought maybe she just was like at

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Speaker 1: a different location or with like a friend of the family.

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Speaker 1: DCYF never told me that Oakley was missing, and they

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Speaker 1: still never have told me that she was missing. I

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Speaker 1: was in Target the next day, December seventh, buying clothes

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Speaker 1: for her little brother and buying like things for Oakley. Also,

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Speaker 1: when a friend called me and she said like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm watching you know, the court right now on YouTube

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Speaker 1: and Oakley's bioparents are on it and you need to

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Speaker 1: like watch it because they're asking where Oakley is. And

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Speaker 1: I thought, okay, like, well we all, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: all wondering where Oakley is, but not to this magnitude,

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Speaker 1: not of a missing child. And I about felt to

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Speaker 1: my knees and Target, Jamie Joe Hyles, I can imagine

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Speaker 1: you at Target falling to your knees when you realize

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Speaker 1: you're just not waiting for Oakley to come from her parents,

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Speaker 1: You're not just waiting for her to come from another

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Speaker 1: foster home. Nobody can find Oakley. No one can find her,

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Speaker 1: and the parents are being questioned about where she is.

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Speaker 1: When did you hear that her biological mother said, oh,

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Speaker 1: she went in the woods and got eaten by wolves.

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Speaker 1: When did you learn that? Why? So I believe it

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Speaker 1: was on December ninth. The city of Oakville held it

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Speaker 1: a vigil for Oakley, and it was beautiful. On the

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Speaker 1: way home from the vigil. I was reading the police

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Speaker 1: reports and news reports that were put out to the public,

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Speaker 1: and that is where I read that line and talk

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Speaker 1: about a gut punch like it just made me feel sick.

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Speaker 1: And they knew you wanted Oakley, they knew you didn't

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Speaker 1: want to give her up. Who and the hay ordered

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Speaker 1: Oakley from you? To that I daven use the word mother.

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Speaker 1: Whose idea was that? I Before Oakley returned home, my

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Speaker 1: husband and I met with the social worker and her supervisor.

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Speaker 1: They were very cold and just unwelcoming. They basically expressed

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Speaker 1: that she wasn't my daughter. To get over it and

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Speaker 1: thanks for doing what we had done, but you know,

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Speaker 1: Oakley was going back no matter what. So when I

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Speaker 1: think about the bitterness that I have in this whole situation,

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Speaker 1: obviously I'm very angry at Oakley's biological parents for the

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Speaker 1: abuse that she endured. But I'm also really upset with

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Speaker 1: Washington State Department of Children used some families, her social worker,

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Speaker 1: the supervisor, and the judge that signed off on this,

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Speaker 1: knowing the history of domestic violence, manipulation, drug use, all

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Speaker 1: those things. Can I ask you a question, yes, Jamie Joe,

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Speaker 1: do you remember their names. Yes, I do. What are

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Speaker 1: their names? And I just for the record, you didn't

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Speaker 1: volunteer this. I'm asking what are their names? I never

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Speaker 1: give their names out just because, like I feel like

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Speaker 1: if I give out their names, then people are going

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Speaker 1: to like go after them, like like with death threats,

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Speaker 1: and that scares me. So I've never publicly released any

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Speaker 1: names of the social worker. I believe that all of

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Speaker 1: them are still working for the state though in Grace

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Speaker 1: Harbor County. Are you not giving me their names? Oh? No,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to get in trouble you. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know what, Jamie Joe, You're such a good person.

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Speaker 1: You really are. You're a much better person than I am.

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Speaker 1: Because I want them fired. I don't only just want

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Speaker 1: them fired, them prosecuted, and I want them behind mars.

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Speaker 1: If anybody on this panel knows the names, I would

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Speaker 1: like the name Sydney Jack. If you have the names,

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Speaker 1: can you hand them to me quickly? Oh? Great? Because

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Speaker 1: why should that be kept secret. They tell you you're

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Speaker 1: not to buy a mom, you need to remember that.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what happens. She's going home to buy

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Speaker 1: a mom. And now I believe Oakley is dead, and

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Speaker 1: I believe Oakley was tortured, starved, beaten, and murdered. And

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Speaker 1: I don't believe in secret proceedings in not in this

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Speaker 1: country anyway, maybe in some third world country there is

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Speaker 1: no open courtroom. We're open procedures like we have here.

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Speaker 1: But sunshine is the best detergent, and that is why

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Speaker 1: our founding fathers went to such great extent to ensure

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Speaker 1: an open court room where the public could see justice unfold.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, Jamie Joe is a much better person

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Speaker 1: than me, because I want to snap the heads off

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Speaker 1: both of these parents, and I personally want to prosecute

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Speaker 1: the social worker child Protection. You know, I'm doing air

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Speaker 1: quoties right now. And the boss that stood by and

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Speaker 1: let this happen to an innocent little girl, Nancy. I'm

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Speaker 1: actually having chills up my spine this whole story. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so much to say about this story, but this

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Speaker 1: happened to a patient of mine, single dad. He was

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Speaker 1: approached to adopt his sister who had a drug problem.

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Speaker 1: His sister kept happing baby after baby. He was approached

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Speaker 1: to it opped or to foster one of the babies.

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Speaker 1: He was not really prepared or wanting to be a dad,

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00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: but he reluctantly took in this little baby, raised her

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Speaker 1: till she was three. This was in Washington State. The

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Speaker 1: little girl was removed ruthlessly from him and returned back

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Speaker 1: to his sister's household. When she cleaned up temporarily, she

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Speaker 1: went back on drugs, went into a group home, took

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Speaker 1: the little girl with her, and every time he visited

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Speaker 1: his daughter, she had deteriorated and deteriorated and deteriorated, and

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Speaker 1: his mental health deteriorated too, because he saw his daughter

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Speaker 1: deteriorating under somebody else's care. This was Washington State. I

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Speaker 1: covered I followed this case for years, and it was

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Speaker 1: so heartbreaking. You know the fact that that Oakley was

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Speaker 1: working so hard as a little girl to understand that

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Speaker 1: she didn't come from mommy's tommy, but she came from

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Speaker 1: mommy's heart, and she had a life and she had friends,

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Speaker 1: and then she's returned to biom hell almost as a

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Speaker 1: meal ticket. She's used as a meal ticket. Nancy. Did

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Speaker 1: you see the pictures of her parents, the mugshots. Her

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Speaker 1: dad has sores all over his face. He's a mathematic

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Speaker 1: This is not a family who's fit to take care

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Speaker 1: of children. She was just a meal ticket to them.

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Speaker 1: She was away to get benefits from the state and

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Speaker 1: that's it. She was used. And I guarantee you a

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Speaker 1: close inspection would reveal that Oakley was missing and the parents,

427
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: the bioparents, kept getting benefits for the child. Guys, take

428
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at crime online dot com.

429
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: The last confirmed signing of Oakley Carlson is in February

430
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, but the little girl isn't reported missing

431
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: until December twenty twenty one. That's when a fire or

432
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: damages the family's home, forcing them to relocate. A local

433
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: school principal gets concerned after talking with one of Oakley's siblings.

434
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: Oakley's six year old sister tells the principal's daughter Oakley

435
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: is no more, that she had gone into the woods

436
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: and had been eaten by wolves. The little girl has

437
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: also been reportedly told by her mother, Jordan Bowers, to

438
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: not talk about Oakley. On December sixth, Oakley's fifth birthday,

439
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: police are sent out to do a welfare check. Okay,

440
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: let me understand this. Joining me is Stephanie Pogonis, investigative

441
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: reporter at Fox News Digital. So Oakley is saying fib

442
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Fast forward about ten months. The little

443
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: girl is not reported missing until December twenty twenty one,

444
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: and that is when fire damages forced the family to relocate,

445
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: and when they do, outcomes the story that Oakley has

446
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: been eaten by wolves. So for all that time period,

447
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 1: nearly a year, her bioparents don't report her missing. That's correct.

448
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: In fact, Oakley's father, Andrew does not actually report her

449
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: missing until after police prod him for information, and at

450
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: that time he makes limited statements, including to the effect

451
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: that Oakley is either dead or not coming back for

452
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: a reunion. According to court documents, who said that Stephanie,

453
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: that was Andrew Carlton. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. That

454
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: is the bio dad joining me right now. Special guest

455
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: forensic expert, lecturer University Florida and host of a hit

456
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: series Shattered, sold podcasts and you can find it on

457
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: all sorts of plat forms. You can find her at

458
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: Karen's Forensic or at bare Bones Forensic dot com. Karen

459
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: al Smith Karen, this is a forensic nightmare because where

460
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: Oakley was being I'm just going to say, held away

461
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: from her foster mom, that loved her, that took care

462
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 1: of her, that wanted her, that got gut punched when

463
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: she was taken away. She was in this hell hole

464
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: with bioparents who I believe were high on meth, that

465
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: Abbie's tortures, starved and murdered her there, I said it,

466
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: So how are we going to prove it? What possible

467
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: forensic evidence is there? After the hume was burned to

468
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: an extent, then they had to relocate, right and there

469
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: are forensic aspects of this that I questioned Nancy. In

470
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: December of twenty twenty one, there was a fire at

471
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: the bioparents' house they relocated. Now in pursuit of evidence,

472
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: the police did a surt took that house, and I quote,

473
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: there was also blood spatter on the blinds near the

474
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: front door, on the front door, and a handprint on

475
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: the wall in the downstairs hallway. This is really concerning

476
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: was there enough blood there to be indicative of foul play?

477
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: Spatter is a term that's used when there's some type

478
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: of force behind that blood. So the next question to

479
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: answer is what may have caused that spatter pattern? Could

480
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: any conclusions or even a hypothesis be formed based on

481
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: what they saw and how much blood spatter was there.

482
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: Was that handprint that they saw in blood? Did they

483
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: recover it or process it to make an identification? Could

484
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: the size of that handprint help to eliminate the adults

485
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: or the children in the household? Was DNA testing completed

486
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: on that blood? Was the lab able to determine if

487
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: that blood was oh Glease or another family member? It

488
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: would sort of glossed over, And to me as a

489
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: forensic analyst, that's key to this whole thing. Based on

490
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: what I've heard, based on what you called a hellhole

491
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: that she was living in, this is so indicative of

492
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: so many cases that I covered, Nancy. It's like textbook

493
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: and it's breaking my heart to know something happened in

494
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: that house. Do I think the fire was convenient? Possibly

495
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: possibly to cover up evidence? Yes? Okay, hold on, you're

496
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: giving me so much incredible information and this would be

497
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: what is needed to prove a case in court. Let's

498
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: start again, if you don't mind for those that are

499
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: not forensics experts like you, Karenel Smith, Let's talk again

500
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: about the blood evidence. Repeat, right, So, the detectives did

501
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: an initial search of the house after the fire, and

502
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: there is in quotes. There was also blood spatter on

503
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: the blind near the front door, on the front door,

504
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: and a handprint on the wall and the downstairs hallways.

505
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: There's no more information about that. That was glossed over

506
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: in the reports. Well, to me, that's key when you

507
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: have spatter spatter blood is when it's liquid, if it's impacted,

508
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: if there's a force behind it, it leaves a pattern

509
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: called spatter. But without any more information, I don't know

510
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: how much there was. What were the size of the droplet,

511
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: that's indicate that's indicative of how much force was behind it.

512
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: The smaller the droplets, the more force. How much was there?

513
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: Was it located near the floor in the middle of

514
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: the room? Was it at the height of God forbid

515
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: a child? Where was it? The handprint? Was the handprint

516
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: processed with powder? Was it? Was it something other than

517
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: blood or was this handprint in blood? And how was

518
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: it processed? Whose handprint was it? Were there any rich

519
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: detail parts that that could be identified to a specific person.

520
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: These are forensic leads, but they were bred flags to me.

521
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: Who left the blood? How did it get there? Was

522
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: there an implement found? Was there any other search of

523
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: the health What were the conclusions, if any another issue?

524
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: Karen Smith is of course you're looking at it from

525
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: a forensic point of view, but I'm looking at it

526
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: also from a circumstantial evidence point of view. For so

527
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: long Oakley did not come out to the bus stop,

528
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: the school bus finally just quit come and quit stopping. Now,

529
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: if a school bus driver knows the little girl is

530
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: no longer coming to school, that means a school system

531
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: knows something. But yet that was never communicated that this

532
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: child just seemingly disappeared. What about it? Stephanie Baguon is

533
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: joining US crime reporter Fox needs digital What about that? Absolutely, Nancy,

534
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: And in fact I want to flag that this is

535
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: not the first time someone who's even mentioned this to DCYF.

536
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: In fact, her foster parents herself wrote a letter Toys

537
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: in which Jamie Joe Hiles stated, quote, I am writing

538
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: you to document that if something is to happen to

539
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: those children, and I have tried multiple times to help them,

540
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: at CPS and DCYS are at fault and will not

541
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: only be in huge legal trouble, but the public relations

542
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: fallout of not protecting no string will be massive quote,

543
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut for our friends at

544
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: Fox thirteen. Everybody's in grief. Everybody's struggling a little bit

545
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: with just trying to hold out hope for a good outcome.

546
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: The superintendent of Oakville School District says Oakley's sister is

547
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 1: friends with their principal's daughter. The principal says the sister

548
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: became upset when Oakley was mentioned and said there is

549
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: no more Oakley. When she was starting to hear some

550
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: of those buzzy type words or those those things that

551
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: were that make you as an educator pause, She did

552
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: exactly what she was supposed to, and she followed the protocol.

553
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: And first thing Monday morning, they got ahold of the

554
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,959
Speaker 1: proper authority, and then the walls started rolling, and that's

555
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: that's how this kind of all came about. Court documents

556
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: also revealed that Bowers and Carlson initially lied to police,

557
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: saying she was with Carlson's parents. Oakley's grandmother told investigators

558
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: the last time she saw Oakley was in December of

559
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and said, quote, Oakley didn't look well. Oakley

560
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: had dark circles under her eyes, pale skin, and she

561
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 1: had scratches or sores on her face. Isn't it true,

562
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 1: Stephanie paganis at the parents where they had been living,

563
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 1: were out in a very rural area. Her body could

564
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: be anywhere. Yes, not only is the very rural, but

565
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: it is heavily wooded, to the point where police officials

566
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: have said it might not even be easy to spot

567
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: Oakley's remains in such heavy wooded thrush takes our cut three,

568
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: our friend Jennifer Lee. This whole investigation launched after Oakley's

569
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: six year old sister told her friend's mom that quote,

570
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: Oakley is no more. Court documents say Jordan Bowers was enraged,

571
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: yelling and clenching her fists when cops pressed her for

572
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: answers about the well being of her daughter, Oakley Carlson.

573
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: That was on Sunday. Now days later, Bowers and dad

574
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: Andrew Carlson are behind bars and now facing an abandonment

575
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: charge for feeling to give prescribed medication to Oakley's sister,

576
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: who is six years old and blind. How could this happen?

577
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: And of course chop protective services once again beyond the

578
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: reach of the law. But the public knows, the public knows,

579
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: we know something horrible has happened. Take a listen to

580
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 1: our cut nine. This is Drew Michelson at King five.

581
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: Before seeing the judge, Jordan Bowers had to face a

582
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: crowd headed up by Jamie Joe Hines, former foster mother

583
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 1: of Oakley Carlson, Bowers's daughter, who hasn't been seen since

584
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: February twenty one. That's a vindication I can get. Unfortunately,

585
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: in this situation right now, all I can do is

586
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: just make eye contact with her and hope that she

587
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: knows that we're here and we're not going anywhere. Bowers

588
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: came to court on child and endangerment charges. She's accused

589
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: of crimes linked to her other two children. The chaildren

590
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: were exposed to drugs while the children were under their care.

591
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 1: Absolutely and they really ingested them, potentially ingested them. Yeah.

592
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: Last month, Oakley's father, Andrew Carlson, pleaded guilty to the

593
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: same charges. He got a year. Bowers also pleaded guilty,

594
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: and since she has prior convictions, she got the maximum

595
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: of twenty months. She chose not to speak to the court.

596
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: Familiar detectives say Oakley's parents haven't spoken to them either

597
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: about what happened to the five year old, but no

598
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: charges have been filed and her disappearance to Jamie Joe

599
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: Hile's Oakley's foster mom, what is your message right now? Well,

600
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: I would love for Jordan and Andrew to know that

601
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: have fun with life after you are released from jail

602
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: in prison, because it's not going to be easy for

603
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: you and for the rest of your life like we

604
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: will follow you and we will find where Oakley is.

605
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: For anybody else, my message is just if you know

606
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: anything about Oakley, if you know, if you hear something,

607
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: if you know anything, please talk. Talk to crimestoppers, call

608
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: the Grays Harbor County Sheriff's Department, anything with any information.

609
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: Your your tip could be the missing puzzle piece that

610
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 1: we're looking for. The number on the starts for Oakley

611
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: is three six zero five three three eight seven six

612
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: five repeat three six zero five three three eight seven

613
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: six five, or use the p three tips app on

614
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: your smartphone. We wait as justice involves Nancy Grace crob

615
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: Stories signing off, good bye friend,