1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: What do you do in life doesn't go according to 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: plan that moment you lose the job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brook Shields and 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: this is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: told by people who lived them. Each week, I sit 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: down with a guest to talk about the times they 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: were knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: answers one question, Now what, Brooke. I don't know if 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: you remember. We were at the airport, I think it 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: was Laguarty or JFK and you came up with your 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: daughter and you said Hi Gale, and I go, Hi, 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: you go, it's me, Brookshields. I go, I know who 16 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: you are. You have on your book field face. I 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: do because I never assume that people know. I do 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: the espressily when I don't have on my quote TV face. 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: My guest today is the incredible Gail King. Gail is 20 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: an Emmy Award winning journalist. She's the co host of 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: CBS Mornings and she is the editor at large of 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: Oprah Daily. She's also a mom, a new grandmother, and 23 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: has the enviable distinction of being one of Oprah's favorite people. 24 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: As far as journalists go, Gail is incredible and she 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: works harder than almost anyone I know. She's interviewed everyone 26 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: from the Obama's to headline making CEOs, newsmakers to celebrities, everybody, 27 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: and she's covered some of the world's biggest now What 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: moments with grace and insight. I am a huge fan 29 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: of hers as a person, as a talent, and I 30 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: was so honored that she agreed to do the show 31 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: and share some of her many insights and many of 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: her now What moments. So here is the inimitable Gail King. Hi, 33 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: Gail King, Hi, Hi? How many have you been up 34 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: for hours and hours and hours since three four? And 35 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: this is after flying back from l A yesterday, So 36 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: I'm kind of like this, trying to sit me up 37 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: breath position. Okay, Well, we're gonna make this as painless 38 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: as possible, and I'm sure it's already here bedtime. No, 39 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm all good. I'm all good. I'm all good. If 40 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: someone on the rare occasion if someone didn't know who 41 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: you were, how would you introduce yourself If it's a 42 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: formal introduction, I just say Gail King at CBS, from 43 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: CBS and Oprah Daily. You know, I hate when you 44 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: go to speak somewhere and they have your bio and 45 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: it lists everything you've ever done, and I think, God, 46 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: I'm bored listening to this myself. So I would much 47 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: rather just say your current job. I like saying that 48 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm the mother of two. That's what I like more 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: than anything, the mother of two. And now we can 50 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: add grandmother of one. But I mean, congratulations, thanks, I'm 51 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: so that's where I was this weekend with my grandson. 52 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: When you say grandmother, people instantly think old gray hair. 53 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: Are you sitting in a rocking chair? And that's so 54 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: not me. I don't think that will ever be you. 55 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: And and we've talked a lot about that, and I 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: have to say that, you know the whole adage about 57 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: ages just a number, but it really is how you 58 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: put yourself forth in the world. And I was so 59 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: happy for you when I when I knew you were 60 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: having a little grand baby. Me too. What does he 61 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: call you? Well, he's too little to say anything. I'm 62 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: leaning towards Gaya because that means mother Earth, although I 63 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: got niced about it because they said because it sort 64 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: of sounds like Gail, which I like that. And I 65 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: also like gan Gan because I think that sounds friendly 66 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: and fun. What what was your mom's name? Well, so 67 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: she didn't want to be called grandma or anything like that. 68 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: She wanted to be called tuts tuts, and my mother 69 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: in law wanted to be called cha cha So watcha. 70 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: That's why I'm in therapy. Still. Um, that's pretty good. 71 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: Twots and cha chaw. That says a lot about who 72 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: they are for sure. Um, I think i'd probably pick 73 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: like B B because it's got You've got B and Brooke. 74 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: I don't know that Brooke. That's why I kind of 75 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: want a G name. That's why I kind of want 76 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: a G name. I have no hang ups about age. 77 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: You know, when I turned fifty. I don't know how 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: they do it, but the A A r P sends 79 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: you a magazine and I thought, God, I actually called 80 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: him and said, please take me off your mailing list. 81 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: And now I look at that and I went, yeah, 82 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: I don't know why I should have sent that message. 83 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: I should have just embraced it. But I was so 84 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: freaked out when I got a a r P. And 85 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: I think we have to change that whole way of thinking. 86 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: We really do. And I think that that across the 87 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: board is a really important thing. You've had such an 88 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: enviable career. But I know that it's that I called 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: the show now What, because it really focuses on the 90 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: now what moments that we have in our lives. And 91 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: I'm really interested to hear what some of your most 92 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: unexpected now what moments that you encountered in your career 93 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: or I mean, you know, it started with me, now What. 94 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: When I was going to college, I had no idea 95 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: what I was going to major in. I can remember 96 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: sitting there back then they had the college guides with 97 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: all the classes you're supposed to declare your major. Who 98 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: the hell knows what they're gonna when they're a freshman, 99 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: and I remember thinking, I don't like math, I don't 100 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: like science. I do like English, I do like writing. 101 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: I do like psychology because I still love listening people's problems, 102 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: still do giving unsolicited advice. So I said, I'm going 103 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: to choose psychology. So that's literally how random it was. 104 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: Now what you graduate from college and it's sort of 105 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: your first job. Now what I mean all along the ways? 106 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I look at when I first got married Brook, 107 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: when I first got married, the only time I got married. 108 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: I'm now divorced. It's the only time I got married. 109 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: I can remember looking in the mirror. You know, my 110 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: mom was helping me get dressed for my wedding, and 111 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: I remember saying, Mom, how do you know that this 112 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: is till death to this part? How do I know 113 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: for sure this is right? And she goes, oh, you're 114 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: just having cold feet. Everybody feels that way. And I 115 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: would never tell my daughter that. I don't think you're 116 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: supposed to have cold feet on the day you get married. 117 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think you should, at least in 118 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: that moment, feel I am ready he or she is 119 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: a person of my dreams. I don't think girls should 120 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: be told it's cold feet. Everybody has jitters. I can 121 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: probably pretty safely say that that my first husband and 122 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: I had equally cold feet on on our wedding day. 123 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: And I knew. I knew as much as I didn't 124 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: want to lose him as a person in my life, 125 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: there was something in my gut that just was too 126 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: terrified and fears. Ever, I knew it, but I was 127 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: never a quitter. I I would you know, there was 128 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: too much pressure, you know, to be divorced as well. 129 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: I mean I too, am divorced, and that was not 130 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: one moment I had a big now I mean I 131 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: got divorced. My mom died around the same time, so 132 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: I had a couple of now what's going on at 133 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: the same time. Then you do have to have it 134 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: now what? And for me, the focus was my children 135 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: were young, you know, they were four and five, and 136 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: I just thought I'd read all the books about how 137 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: screwed up kids can be from divorced. Well, what I 138 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: know is that's not true. As long as children feel 139 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: safe and secure, they will be fine. Is it ultimately better? 140 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: I think if they have two parents who love them 141 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: and they're in the same home. For me, that was 142 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: the way I wanted to go, but it didn't work 143 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: out that way. But kids don't necessarily have to be 144 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: damaged or destroyed because you're divorced. But my main thing 145 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: was focusing on them. But I think you're so right 146 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: about it being about love and about support. I mean, 147 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: I was four when my dad got remarried, and neither 148 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: one of my parents ever spoke ill of the other. 149 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: And I think that that's important. I think that's very important. 150 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: And I I think it's painful when I see parents 151 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: who were so upset with themselves that they can't really 152 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: focus see what it's doing to the children. And I 153 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: had a therapist say to me once, you know, parents 154 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: have to love their children more than they dislike or 155 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: hate their spouse. And I think that's very good advice. 156 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: Rather than focus on you know what he did to me? 157 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: You know what she said, It just gets you know 158 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: where nobody cares. What you really do have to focus 159 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: on is what is going to be best for the children. 160 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: When you let that guide you, it can work out. Okay, 161 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: Easier said than done, though, when you're piste off and hurt, 162 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: easier said than done. So that must have been one 163 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: of the biggest challenges for you in dealing with that. 164 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: How did you put aside that pain and that hurt. Well, 165 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: you know, I think number one, I was married to 166 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: someone who on monogamy very challenging, which is difficult in 167 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: a marriage. I think I'm one of these people. Brook. 168 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: I believe that when you get married for better at worse, 169 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: it should include monogamy, so that wasn't something that he 170 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: cherished the way I did. I was very lucky in 171 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: that my life didn't have to skip a beat in 172 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: terms of where we lived. He moved out of the house, 173 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: I stayed in the house. I was still working. The 174 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: children's lives didn't have to be disrupted that way where 175 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: you have to change schools or moved to a different house, 176 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: or moved to a smaller house, or get new friends. 177 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: So from that standpoint, knock home would I say? It 178 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: was very fortunate. I was anchoring TV at the local 179 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: news station, so I didn't have to worry so much 180 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: about that. I just had to navigate how we were 181 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: going to co parent. When I was so angry, I 182 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: think if I didn't have children, I would have never 183 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: spoken to him again. I remember when I was my 184 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: idea to get divorced and he said to me, I 185 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: feel lucky that we didn't have children, because I would 186 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: not have made it's easy for you. Well, and I thought, WHOA, Okay, 187 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: but then, but you are permanently tied, at least tied 188 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: until they're eighteen. And now you know, I wish him well, 189 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: I'm long past the anger, long long long. I was 190 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: over that many years ago, and now we both I 191 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: reached out to him about when the grandchild was born, 192 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: whenever there's graduations, so I can still have you know, 193 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, we're planning Luca his christening 194 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: and he's coming and bringing his girlfriend. And I'm very 195 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: cool with that, very cool. That's it's a very good 196 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: it's a it's important again because this is about Luca, 197 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: this is about your daughter, your son in law. You know, 198 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: none of that is their battle. Was there were there 199 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: any people in particular who you really were relied on 200 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: during that period of time to kind of help you 201 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: get through Well, my kitchen cabinet has always been Oprah, 202 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: of course, but at the time, Oprah, listen, I gotta 203 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: tell you this, Oprah, who's never been married, never has 204 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: had children. She is one of the best therapists ever. 205 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: If she had a second career, it would be, honest 206 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: to God, she's one of the best therapists ever. So 207 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: it was Open and my mom because when it first happened, 208 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: when I first caught him, I didn't tell anyone but 209 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: Open and my mother. I didn't tell my sisters and 210 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: I'm close to my sisters. I didn't tell work. I 211 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: went to work like everything was fine, which is crazy 212 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: when you're just uh, when you're devastated inside, to go 213 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: on TV Gayl King, I witnessed news like everything is fine, 214 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: but it was really Oprah, My mom and and therapy 215 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: got me through. And was there a reason you didn't 216 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: tell anybody? I know? I think about that. Um, I 217 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: think I would have run through the street screaming it. 218 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: I know, I know, Well, it's you don't want anybody 219 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: to know, really, And then I think, why am I 220 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: acting like I did something wrong? Or why am I embarrassed? 221 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: Because at the time, I didn't really know what was 222 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: going to happen. I didn't know was I going to 223 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: stay in the marriage? Was I not going to stay 224 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: in the marriage. If you told everybody all these horrible 225 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: things and then you get back together with him, then 226 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: they're looking at you like your cuckoo for Coco Bubbs. 227 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: So I really didn't. I really didn't. I told my 228 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: mom and Oprah. I knew I could trust them. When 229 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: did you meet Oprah? Because it feels like you've always 230 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: known each other. It does feel like that, you know, 231 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: we worked at a TV station in Baltimore. Years ago. 232 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: We were twenty one and twenty two. Now we're sixty 233 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: seven and sixty eight. I always say she's older, but 234 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: we were born. She was born in January. I was 235 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: born in December of the same year. And you know, 236 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: it's just one of those things that we just kind 237 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: of clicked right away. Were we had very similar philosophies 238 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: about life, the people we liked, the people we didn't like, 239 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: and we clicked. And those years must have been brutal 240 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: work wise. I mean, I can't even fathom the hours, 241 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: the finding your own voice being heard. Do you think 242 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: you sort of practically trauma bonded in those years? I 243 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: think I just sort of, you know, I when I 244 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: was a baby reporter, I was working in Kansas City. 245 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: My first job on television was in Kansas City, and 246 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: I interviewed Jesse Jackson and Jesse Jackson in the interview, 247 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: he was saying, um, how long have you been at 248 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: the station? And I said, oh, I'm new, I'm just starting. 249 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: And he said, well, all I can say to you 250 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: is dr King because if he meets everybody calls everybody doctor. 251 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: I don't know why, but everybody meets a doctor, he 252 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: goes doctor king. All I can say to you is 253 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: be excellent, because excellent is the best deterrent to racism. 254 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: And I've never forgotten that book and anything I did. 255 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: I just thought, I'm gonna work really hard at it. 256 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: So I didn't have these things about, oh, i'm a 257 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: woman of color, I gotta make sure I do this, 258 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: or I have to navigate this. I just thought, I 259 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: just want to be good at my job. And I 260 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: didn't start up with a game plan of you know, 261 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: in two years, I'm going to do this. In three years, 262 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: I want to do this, or I want to end 263 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: up here. That is not what I did. I just 264 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: worked really hard and one thing led to another, lead 265 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: to another, lead to another. Now did I encounter racism. 266 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: If I did, it wasn't to my face. It wasn't 267 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: something that I was physically aware of in doing this job. 268 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: I did know enough, though, when I was first looking 269 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: for a job that if they already had one black 270 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: woman on staff, I think, well, I better not apply there, 271 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: because chances are they don't want to have to really brook. 272 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: White people never think about that. They never think, well, 273 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: there's already one white woman there, so I better not 274 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: apply there. So it's an I mean, not surprised, but 275 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: it's that's an incredible burden to also have to Did 276 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: you feel like you had to be better than other people? Um, 277 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if it said I felt better. I 278 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: just felt I just wanted to be good and I 279 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: do feel that in the in the business world, sometimes 280 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: I see this happen. Somebody of color will make a 281 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: mistake and they're instantly dismissed. Somebody else who's not of 282 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: color will make a mistake and they go, well, they're 283 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: just having a bad day. They'll get another chance. So 284 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: I am cognizant of that in all areas of life. 285 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: Do you think it's getting better? I'd like to think so. 286 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: I'd like to think. So. The playing field is still 287 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: not leveled. It isn't it's still not leveled. And as 288 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: you were climbing the ladder, so to speak, outs you 289 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: were getting did it. Did did any of that change 290 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: for you? You know? I look at my whole career 291 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: has been pretty positive for me. You know. I had 292 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: to give a speech once about resilience or self esteem. 293 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: I said, how do I feel about self esteem? How 294 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: do I feel about resilient because I really do look 295 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: at my life and I'm not trying to paint it 296 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: as Pollyannish, I'm not. But when I look at my life, 297 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: my life has been really pretty good. You know. I've 298 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: had trauma in terms of losing parents, going through a divorce. 299 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: I can remember calling talking to Maya Angelou when I 300 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: was going through um divorce and the death of my mother, 301 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: and I said, oh my god, my it just can't 302 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: get worse than this. It just can't. And she said, 303 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: you take that back right now, right now. And I 304 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: said why she goes because a minute you said, she said, 305 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: do you have your health yes, do you have your 306 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: legs yes, do you have your hands yes? Or your 307 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: children healthy yes? Don't ever say it just can't get 308 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: any worse than this. So I've always thought about that 309 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: too when I'm sitting around complaining about something. She said 310 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: to me once I was complaining about something at work, 311 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: and she said, just stop it, and I said, wait, 312 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: I'm not done telling you the story. She said, whining 313 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: is so unbecoming because it lets people know there's a 314 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: victim in the neighborhood. So I'm not one of these 315 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: people by nature that sits around bitching and moaning about stuff. 316 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: I'm a very solution oriented person. Now. I think a 317 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: lot of it has to do with your attitude. I mean, obviously, 318 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: but in the earlier years of the news, were there 319 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: moments that you just even considered giving it all up 320 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: or change. Nope, none of the hours didn't get to you. Nothing. Well, 321 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: I hate the hours, hours and hours shitty. I hate 322 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: I hate my work hours, but I love the job 323 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: so much I don't I always say, don't cry from 324 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: the Argentina. When you took the job, you knew these 325 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: were the hours. They aren't changing. They aren't changing. But 326 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: I never, to your original question, I never had a 327 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: moment where I thought, God, I can't do this anymore, 328 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: or I don't want to do this anymore. I never 329 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: had that. And when I when I left local news 330 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: and came to New York to work on the Oprah magazine, 331 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: I got out of television. And then when nine eleven happened, 332 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: because we launched a magazine in two thousand one, nine 333 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: eleven happened, and I felt such sadness and such depression, 334 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: not only for the incident, of course, but that I 335 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: wasn't there covering the story in the real moment. So 336 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: my core, I know, is a TV baby. I love television, 337 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: but I never had a moment where I thought, I 338 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: don't I don't like this job and don't want to 339 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: do it. I mean, that must have been really hard 340 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: for you to not be out the front center when 341 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: that's in your nature. Has there been a very big 342 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: change in you know, I mean just these past few 343 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: years with what the not, with the pandemic, and with 344 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: chaotic years in politics and Washington and political turmoil and 345 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: the me too and the racial turmoil, and it's just 346 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: it just feels that it's scariest scary. Have you seen 347 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: that change what you do? I don't know if it's 348 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: changed what we do. I find that I worry a 349 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: lot more now. I'm very worried. It's interesting to me. 350 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: You know, the news, especially the way we do it 351 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: at CBS, is so fact based. You know, we're just 352 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: trying to give you the facts and then let the 353 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: audience decide. And now we live in a society or 354 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: even with presented with the facts, people a don't believe it, 355 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: or people just blatantly outright lie. And I'm still trying 356 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: to figure out how to navigate that. You know, everybody 357 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: can have their own opinion. I do believe that, but 358 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: you're not entitled to your own set of facts. I 359 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: agree with that wholeheartedly. And I and I or even 360 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: if you hear you know that Sandy Hook situation. I mean, 361 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: it is so shocking to me. It's so interesting because 362 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: that's when you see something. I mean, these are you 363 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: can see it, you can see it happening. You know, 364 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: there's a visual to it. But when it's something like 365 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: the me too thing, I'm so I'm fascinated by that, 366 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: just because I think it it's not about it's like 367 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: he said, she said, She said, she said, how do 368 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: you reconcile? But it's sad, he said, she said, in 369 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: many cases in the me too thing, I think the 370 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: me too I would say to people, it's not mysterious 371 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 1: about what's appropriate and what's inappropriate behavior. I don't believe, 372 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: I really don't. The beauty of the me Too movement 373 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: for me is that young women coming up today in 374 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: most cases, will be believed, and it is my hope 375 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: that they will speak up. I can remember being in 376 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: my early twenties in Baltimore, guys saying very inappropriate things 377 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: to me, like, you know, I'm sitting there typing up 378 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: my little typewriter and him whispering in my ear something 379 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: very grotesque, and all I could do is just go he. 380 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: I didn't even know what to do with that. What 381 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: he would like to where he would like to lick me? 382 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: Use your own imagination. A guy, A guy who I 383 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: didn't even know very well. Oh girl, you look so good. 384 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: I sure would like to lick here. And I just 385 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: went he. I didn't even know what to say to that. Nowadays, 386 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: women will not just he he he. I think there's 387 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: I think there's a good that's come out of it, 388 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: and that women are speaking up. On the other hand, 389 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: I worry about the pendulum swinging too far the other way, 390 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: because not everybody is a me two case. You can't 391 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: lump everybody together, So I do get concerned about that. 392 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: How did your experiences at CBS sort of inform you? 393 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: And I mean, that was a very public thing that 394 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: you would once again had to Yeah, it was very 395 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: public and very um. That was very difficult. That was 396 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: very difficult, But I never lost sight of who we 397 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: are as an organization and what we represented. That was horrible, 398 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: That was a horrible thing we went through, and I 399 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: thought CBS took very swift action on that. But I 400 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: don't feel defined by that. I don't Did it change 401 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: your friendship? I mean, Charlie Rose was one of them. No, 402 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, listen, Charlie Rose and I worked together for 403 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: many years, and I you know, I considered him a friend. 404 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: I haven't seen or talked to him in a while. 405 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: The friendship has to change because we're no longer working together. 406 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: But I'm not going to be out here vilifying him. 407 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: It was a very very, very unfortunate, unpleasant situation that 408 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: we all went through there, all of us, and we 409 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: should say, you know, he he always denied it, He 410 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: was never arrested. It was just it was just a 411 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: very tough time for the network. Yeah. I've spoken to 412 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: some other anchors who have had to deal with with 413 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: that too, and they said, it's very it's confusing, and 414 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: it's hard, and you're all collectively going through something. Yeah. 415 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: I said at the time that it's very difficult to 416 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: feel anger and anguish in the same space. And that's 417 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 1: how I felt. That's how I felt. I listened to 418 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: you talk to people and you make and they leave 419 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: a conversation or an answer of a question, and they 420 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: leave that encounter as if they've been bullied somehow. I 421 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: hope so, I hope you're right about that, you know. 422 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: I know for me, when I was in elementary school, 423 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: I went to elementary school in Turkey, and I've told 424 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: the story before about a girl. Her name is Janet, 425 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: and she had a wooden leg, a wooden leg, which 426 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: is unusual when you're a little kid. And she was 427 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: actually a friend of mine. Four of us used to 428 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: play together and we used to call her Janet, Janet 429 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: peg leg, peg leg, and she would laugh with us. 430 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: She would laugh with us, she would make fun of 431 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: her leg. And so one day her dad came to 432 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: the class and he came into the class. I didn't 433 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: know who he was, and he said, I'm Mr So 434 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: and So. Could I please speak to Gayl King? And 435 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: he named the three other girls, and he took us 436 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: out in the hall, and Brookie got down on his 437 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: knees and he said, I'm sure you all are very 438 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: nice girls, but every time you make fun of my 439 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: daughter's leg and you call her peg leg, she comes 440 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: home and she cries. And I'm going to ask you 441 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: the story still so bothers me. I'm going to ask 442 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: you not to do that again every time. I mean, 443 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: I look at it. It so bothers me that he 444 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: I didn't see that. I didn't see that, I said, 445 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: But she laughs with as he goes, Oh, yes, of 446 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: course she does. But it hurts her. And I'm asking 447 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: you please don't do that again. And I have never 448 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: never forgotten that. And I thought to myself, I never 449 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: want anybody, anybody to feel my words or my actions 450 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: hurt their feelings. And so that encounter left a deep, deep, 451 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: deep impression all my life, and I said, I would 452 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:34,479 Speaker 1: never ever ever knowingly, knowingly knowingly hurt somebody. But you know, 453 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: if your words can hurt, your words can also help 454 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: and make someone feel better, you know. I just I 455 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: think that that's a hard thing to do. And you've 456 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: had many moments when you've been interviewing people and you've 457 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: had to ask the hard questions and people have freaked 458 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: out or what's going through your head when you're encountering that. Well, 459 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: I believe that any question can be asked. I just 460 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: think that there's the right time, the right place, the 461 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: right tone, and the right intention. And I'm never trying 462 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: to do a gotcha. I'm never ever trying to do 463 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: a gotcha, even if you're there to talk about something 464 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: that's uncomfortable for you or something that puts you in 465 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: a bad light. What we always do is give you 466 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: the platform to tell your story however you want to 467 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: tell it. Let you tell your story. Now we have 468 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: to call bs on you if you're not telling the truth, 469 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: but we can give you the platform to tell whatever 470 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: it is you want to tell. And I never think 471 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: that the interviews about me. It's always about you. Have 472 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: you ever sort of been in in a situation where 473 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: you're thrown and you had to pivot quick? Yeah? I 474 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 1: mean it was years ago. I was interviewing Frank Zappa. 475 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: You remember Frank Zapple, So Frank Zappa would have to 476 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: rate is one of my most awkward interviews. And his 477 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: children's names are Dweezel and Moon Unit. Yes, I'm most 478 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: very good friends with both of them, and i'mt to 479 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: his other. So I was talking to him and I said, 480 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, Deweesel and moon Unit in particular, very unusual names. 481 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: Where did they come from? I figured there had to 482 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: be a story behind it, And he goes, well, that's 483 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: a dumb question. It's a name like Gail, And I 484 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: just went okay. And then I saw another interview where 485 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: he had a whole big story about where the name 486 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: moon Unit came from. For whatever reason that day, he 487 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: didn't feel like talking about it. But it was it 488 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: was live, and it was extremely uncomfortable. I really didn't 489 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: even know what to do other than I went okay. 490 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do. But that's aggressive. Well, Brook, 491 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: I was so thrown because a I didn't think it 492 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: was a dumb question. He goes, it's a name like Gail. 493 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: You got any other questions? I mean he said, of 494 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: just like that. Well, plus you weren't saying it with 495 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: a judgment. You weren't saying you know what your name 496 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: like exactly. I was just curious. But that was awkward 497 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: and that was hard. Do you think it? I mean, 498 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: I think it can be very very hard for women, 499 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,719 Speaker 1: and especially women over forty two. Keep the seat at 500 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: the table, have a seat at the table, have a 501 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: voice in in the room. We're told that there's so 502 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: many limited opportunities, and they pit women against each other, 503 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: and have you found that to be true? Well, I 504 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: do think it's important to have a seat at the 505 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: table very much. So I'm trying to figure out who 506 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: is the people that pit women against each other. Number One, 507 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: there are always stories about Nora and I because we 508 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: used to anchor together, you know, and they'd say Nora 509 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: and Gayl Gail and Noora they don't get along. And 510 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: we would look at this this and say, where is 511 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: this coming from? I mean, and and and no matter 512 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: how many times you said it's not true, the stuff 513 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: you're saying never happened, it didn't matter. I never see 514 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: them doing this two men. I still haven't been able 515 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: to figure this out. I think it's almost too much 516 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: for people to believe that that women can actually uplift 517 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: each other and support each other, and it's easier for 518 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not saying it 519 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: doesn't exist because I've heard all sorts of horror stories 520 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: and where you just thank God, guys, I happen to 521 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: think that this pie is big enough and there's always 522 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: room for somebody good. I still believe that there's always 523 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: room for somebody good. And I always like working with 524 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: people who are better than I am because it forces 525 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 1: you to raise your game. And you always learned something, 526 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: so I never look at it. When if someone knew 527 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: is coming in, I never look at them as a threat. 528 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I wonder what is happening here. I 529 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: don't feel that. I don't feel that I was thinking 530 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: before talking to you today, even though I think we're friends, 531 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, even you've communicated enough and and I feel 532 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: that I definitely feel that with you. But I thought, Brook, 533 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: this is a now what moment for you? Because I 534 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: hold you in such self esteem. Um. And and I'm 535 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: always thrown by that. Brook, I'm always thrown by that. Always. Why, 536 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: Like I met somebody at the airport yesterday and and 537 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: she just walked up to me and said, could I 538 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: just shake your hand? It's just such an honor to 539 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: me you And I'm like like talking to and I go, okay, 540 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: nice to meet you too. I mean, I I just 541 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: I'm always thrown by that because I'm so um. I 542 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: feel that I'm working and struggling and doing the same 543 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: thing that everybody else does in terms of trying to 544 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: keep all the trains running on time and get everything 545 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: done in a in a day. Have you ever thought of, 546 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: like taken a moment to actually think of how you 547 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: register and matter people. I honestly have not why I 548 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 1: don't good question. I guess on some level, I'm thinking, like, 549 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: I get it when I see people who look at 550 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: Oprah for instance, or Maya, or I look at Jennifer 551 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: Lopez because I just think, wow, and here she is 552 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: at fifty two, killing it and and just you know, 553 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: redefining everything. Or I look at Stacy Abrams and I 554 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: can see where people are like or Liz Cheney. I 555 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: may not agree with Liz Cheney philosophically, but I am 556 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,479 Speaker 1: in awe of her and how she's just standing up 557 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: for what she believes is right, calling it out, even 558 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: though it's costing her huge capital politically, she is still 559 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: standing up to say this is wrong, this is wrong. 560 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: So I get why people admire those type of people. 561 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: I'm just a girl out here who's doing a job, 562 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: who really loves a job that she does and wants 563 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: to be good at it. Well, I mean, I'm gonna 564 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: have to fight you on that one a little bit. Only, 565 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: I guess because I feel akin to that. You know, 566 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: my therapist had to talk me through a lot of 567 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: this because you know, I feared it being arrogant, or 568 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: what if I really started to believe, believe that I 569 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: was all that? You know, who the hell do I 570 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: think I am? You know? And she said, you know, 571 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: just step into the bigness of what of what it 572 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: is that you've survived and lived through and and shared 573 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: with people. You sharing a story of something that was 574 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: difficult to you is a type of a gift. Yeah. 575 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: I haven't thought about it like that, but yesterday somebody, 576 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: the flight attendant said, miss King, I just want to 577 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: thank you what you've done for women. And the guy 578 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: sitting next to me went like, who are you, ma'am? 579 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: And I just went invented women? Okay, I didn't know. 580 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: Honest to god, I didn't know what to say. That 581 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: was the one and only gayl King. And if you 582 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: want to hear more from her, tune into CBS Mornings, 583 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: which airs every weekday on CBS Now. What is produced 584 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: by the wonderful Julia Weaver with help from Darby Masters. 585 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed 586 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: by Bahed Fraser and Christian Bowman. A special thanks to 587 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: Nicki Etore and Will Pearson. If you liked this episode, 588 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: please subscribe to the show on the I heart Radio app, 589 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your shows.