1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: The Boston Strangler gripped a community. From nineteen sixty two 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: to nineteen sixty four, at least eleven women were found 3 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: murdered in the Boston city limits and surrounding area. Albert 4 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: DeSalvo confessed to the eleven crops. He was murdered in prison. Later, 5 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: the family of Mary Sullivan got DNA from her exhumed body. 6 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: Two DNA tests. 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: One was taken from the exhumed remains of Mary Sullivan 8 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: and the exhumed remains of Albert de Salvo. The DNA 9 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: found inside Mary's body did not match Alpert de Salvo. 10 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: A decade later, the Boston Police Department conducted DNA testing 11 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: on a blanket that was found inside Mary Sullivan's apartment, 12 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,639 Speaker 2: and that didn't match the DNA of a bloodline relative 13 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: of Albert to Selvam. 14 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: When I got involved in twenty ten, that's kind of 15 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: what we said, Hey, you know, you've got a family 16 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: here that got DNA from their relative, Mary Sullivan. They've 17 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: done half the work for you. Exhume him, cross check it, 18 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: and that's it. Then in twenty thirteen, three years later, 19 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: that's what they allegedly did. They got a water bottle 20 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: from a nephew and then exhumed Albert DeSalvo and said 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: there was a match. But y'all listen to me. Now. 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: We have a guest today. And when I tell you 23 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: nobody knows this case better, I don't think anybody knows 24 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: this case better. I met our guests in two thousand 25 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: and nine, and at that time we talked about the 26 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: geographical area of the crime. We talked about DNA tapes, 27 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: families working on the case. You know. I went to 28 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: Boston so that I could meet with him and meet 29 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: with the children of the lead detective. I've even talked 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: to Flee Bailey about this case when he was alive. 31 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: And I'm just so excited today because you are going 32 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: to be able to hear this story like you've never 33 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: heard it ever and again for us. In twenty ten, 34 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: after I met with our guest, Kasey Sherman, and I'm 35 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: going to get to his intro in a minute, I 36 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: met with the kids that were the sons of the 37 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: lead detective. They allowed me to see their dad's in 38 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: tire case file. There was really no other option, in 39 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: my opinion, than to take the DNA from Mary Sullivan 40 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: and cross check it with Albert Salvo. That was it. 41 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: Forget whether or not he admitted to it. Forget what 42 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: each family thought. That to me was the easiest plan. 43 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: I had an opportunity to go to Boston. Number one. 44 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: It's a great town. It's fantastic town. And when you've 45 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: got somebody like Casey Sherman, who is a New York 46 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: Times best selling author, y'all, He's written over thirteen books. 47 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: Two of them are my favorite books of all time, 48 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: one being The Finest Hour that was made into a 49 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: motion picture with Casey Afflak and Chris Pine. The second 50 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: one Boston Straw, that was also made into a film, 51 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: Patriot's Day with Mark Wahlberg. So when I tell you 52 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: this man can tell a story, honey, he can tell 53 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: a story factually but not losing the heart of it. Y'all, 54 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: remember the bombing at the Boston Marathon. Casey Sherman is 55 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: the one that came up with Boston Straw. He wrote 56 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: about it as only a son of that town could. 57 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: I'm telling you gifted, brilliant. But when I met with him, 58 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: he says, Okay, you know, come here, we'll talk about it. 59 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: I will meet with you. But he didn't just meet 60 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: with me. He said, Yeah, let your students read the 61 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: book Arose from Mary that he wrote. Now, Casey Sherman again, y'all. 62 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: He's a writer. He's written for Time Magazine, Esquire, The 63 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: Washington Post, the Boston Harold. He is a family first person. 64 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: He is gifted, he is smart, he's a storyteller. But 65 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you he's also one of the 66 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: most devoted investigative reporters I've ever dealt with. So I 67 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: just want to welcome him to his own seven. Casey Sherman, 68 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you for spending any time at all 69 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: with us, and before you even really get rolling, thank 70 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: you for telling this case like nobody else can. 71 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: Oh, CHERYLT. I appreciate you having me on the show today, 72 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 2: and you know, I'm very excited to talk to you 73 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 2: and talk your white audience about, you know, one of 74 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 2: the biggest cases in the history of American crime. 75 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: And you know, I remember our first meeting. You were like, Hey, 76 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: meet me at the you know, Prudential building. We're going 77 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: to have lunch at Legal Seafood. I have never had 78 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: a more sophisticated lunch with any meeting person on a 79 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: gold case. Best clam chowder I've ever had in my life. 80 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: But you know, I found you to be so open 81 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: and so willing to share and so just upfront with 82 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: this is what needs to happen on this case, and 83 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: you cannot look at it black and white. You told 84 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: me that then, even though I was like, Casey, look 85 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: sitting with you, you have convinced me it's not Albert 86 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: de Salvo. But when I sit with the sons of 87 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: the lead detective, I'm convinced it was Albert de Salvo. 88 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: So again for me, let's cross check that DNA. But 89 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: here's what happened, y'all. I'm just gonna tell y'all straight up. 90 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: I followed Casey after that, became a huge fan because 91 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: of the way he writes and the way he tells stories. 92 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: And it's undeniable when you sit with him on any case, 93 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: the bombing, no matter what he's talking about, he's gonna 94 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: captivate you. But again, Boston Strangler, we did what we 95 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: did the Cold Case Institute. We were satisfied. We moved 96 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: on until Casey Sherman, we're speaking at a conference. You're 97 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: speaking ahead of me. So I thought I'm gonna go 98 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: to his talk. This will be fun. I can't wait 99 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: to see you, and you freaking knocked me out. I 100 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: could hardly even concentrate that I had to speak next 101 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: for wanting to hear every word coming out of your mouth. 102 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: So again, today means a lot to me, because in 103 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: any cold case, y'all, there's gonna be twist, there's gonna 104 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: be turns, there's gonna be things. You don't know. What 105 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: I think fault was black and white might not be 106 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: so casey. Why don't you take us just a little 107 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: bit of background of how you got involved with Mary's 108 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: case and then what you did with it and kind 109 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: of where we're headed today. 110 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: No happy to SHERYLN. You know, as an investigative reporter, 111 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: you're always learning new information, and I think that is 112 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: the responsibility of an investigative journalist, of an investigator, to 113 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: continue to pour over evidence because there might be something 114 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: that you missed that somebody else missed, that might make 115 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: that tangible connection that hadn't been made years prior. So 116 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: the reason why I got involved in this case, CHERYLN, 117 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: as you know, but for your audience, my aunt, nineteen 118 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: year old Mary Sullivan was you know, for much of 119 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: history was considered the youngest and final victim of the 120 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: Boston Strangler case. She was nineteen years old. She was 121 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: murdered Insider apartment in Beacon Hill, one of the safest 122 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: places in Boston, on Janie fourth, nineteen sixty four. Now, Cheryl, 123 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,559 Speaker 2: I didn't even know my aunt Mary. I was born 124 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty nine, five years after she was killed, 125 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: but I knew know the hole that her murder had 126 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: left in my Irish Catholic family. Murder is multi generational, 127 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: so it has a ripple effect going down generations. And 128 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: my mother was seventeen when Mary was murdered nineteen sixty four, 129 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: and she kept this, these questions that she had about 130 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: the guilt or innocence of Albert ta Salvo for several years. 131 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: And I remember seeing the Boston Strangler movie, the first 132 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: one with Tony Curtis and Henry Fonda, when I was 133 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: a teenager about to go to journalism school, and I 134 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: thought I knew the story. So I asked my mother 135 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: to tell me about Mary the next day, and she 136 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: said that she had doubts about the guilt or innocence 137 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: of Albert Tsalvo because not only was Mary my mother's sister, 138 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: Mary was my mother's best friend, and they had planned 139 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: to live their lives together. They were going to grow 140 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 2: old together as sisters, and all that was stolen from 141 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: my mother. So at that very moment, you know, I 142 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: made it my mission to dig into this case and 143 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: take me where the evidence led me to be able 144 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 2: to kind of find out what really happened during those 145 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 2: years in the nineteen sixties. And for years, you know, 146 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 2: as I was researching this case, in literally interviewing every 147 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: key witness that was still alive, including many of the 148 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: murder suspects, the one key piece of evidence that had 149 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: always been missing Cheryl was Albert Tsalvo's confession. He had 150 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 2: confessed to the murders. He was already incarcerated for unrelated 151 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 2: crimes in nineteen sixty five, and nobody could corroborate or 152 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: contradict the confessions because nobody had ever heard them publicly before. 153 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: In fact, they had been stolen from the evidence blocker 154 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: at the Boston Police Department, and they went missing for 155 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 2: forty years until I tracked them down, and they're sixty 156 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: hours worth. They're now the subject of a brand new 157 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 2: documentary on Hulu Peacock called The Boston strangler unheard confession 158 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: and for the first time the viewers can actually listen 159 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 2: to Albert T. Salvo talking about these murders in detail. 160 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 2: The question I had was was he giving correct information 161 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: in his confessions? And absolutely he was not. He was 162 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: confessing to events that never happened. And I'm so glad, Cheryl, 163 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 2: that you mentioned DNA because in two thousand, not only 164 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: did I have the confession tape, which to me exonerated 165 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: Albert de Salvo from at least the Boston strangments. He 166 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 2: was a bad guy. He was a sexual predator, he 167 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: was a con man, he was a thief. What was 168 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 2: he a killer? I then exhumed my aunt Mary's remains 169 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: for DNA testing, and I also exhumed the remains of 170 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 2: Albert de Salvo for DNA testing. I've actually held Albert 171 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 2: de Salvo sculling my hand, Cheryl. That's how close you 172 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 2: know I got to this case. And we were able 173 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: to find DNA evidence of Mary's killer inside her body. 174 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: And when I say we, Cheryl, I'm talking about doctor 175 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: Henry Lee, I'm talking about doctor Michael Biden. I'm talking 176 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: about doctor Professor James Stars. Rather, these are the top 177 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: friends of investigators in the world that worked on this 178 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: case and they found the killers of DNA and it 179 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: did not match Albert to Salva. 180 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: Let me go back with one thing, because I do 181 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: want my audience to know this. It is not unusual 182 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: in high profile cases and unknown cases that things go missing. 183 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: A lot of times, a detective or somebody else associated 184 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: with the case or that has access to an evident 185 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: troom may take something. They may think they're going to 186 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: write a book, they may think they're going to use 187 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: it at the academy for training. They may take it 188 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: because it's a part of American history and they want it. 189 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: It's not uncommon for things to get misplaced, taken, or stolen. 190 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: So I just want that out there. That is true. 191 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: It's not uncommon, Sheryl, but it is illegal. And you 192 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: know this was the evidence in the strangle. The case 193 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: wasn't taken for future research. 194 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: No, I understand. I understand. And the reason I laughed 195 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: is because the way you said that is just so 196 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: succinct and so correct. I mean, obviously, you should never 197 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: take evidence, no matter what your logic may be. You 198 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: may think, hey, this could help you know, show young 199 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: detectives a better way, the wrong way, a right way, 200 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: you know. But you can copy something, you can you know, 201 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: make a prop. You don't have to take the actual 202 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: evidence of things. So here's the thing casey two with me, 203 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: you're putting in not just the work, but you're doing 204 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: it scientifically, using no question the best in the country. 205 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: I mean, doctor Boden hands down no reason to even 206 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: question his credentials. So you know, you're not just going 207 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: to your best friend from college, Fred, I mean, you 208 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: are literally going to the best that there is to 209 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: make sure that you have the most correct information. 210 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know. I mean you always want to bring 211 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: people in to an investigation, those people that have skill 212 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: sets that you don't have. And certainly I did not 213 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: have a background in forensic examination. So I reached out 214 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 2: to the best in the business who did have that 215 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: background and that expertise, and they were willing to work 216 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: on the case pro bono because they didn't want to 217 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: be beholden to whether it was my family or the 218 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 2: family of Albert Salve or anybody else. They wanted to 219 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: be beholden to the truth. And that's exactly what they did. 220 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: Same with the Colgate Institute. We don't accept money from families. 221 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: We're going to give our opinion, and that's it, based 222 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: on what we find what we believe to be the 223 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: most likely to move this case forward. The solvability factors 224 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: are either there or they're not. When you got the 225 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: DNA back and they said it does not match Albert Sullivan, 226 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: was anything done with that DNA like ancestry. 227 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing, So that DNA this was before 228 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: ancestry dot com was even a thing at that time, 229 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: or twenty three and meters. This is two thousand. We're 230 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: at the cutting edge of forensic science at that time. 231 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: And the DNA that was found on my aunt's remains 232 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: matched the DNA of the actual prime suspect in her 233 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: murder from nineteen sixty four. That man was not Albert DeSalvo, 234 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: but he was a young nineteen year old Boston University 235 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: student who was now living in northern New England. And 236 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: I was able to get his DNA surreptitiously and provide 237 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 2: it to the forensic experts and they ran the testing 238 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 2: came back in match. 239 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: Now you have all this information, you're getting pushed back 240 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: from law enforcement, You're getting pushed back from the family 241 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: of the lead detective but you stay the course. I mean, 242 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: you keep coming even though they've had a press conference 243 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,479 Speaker 1: that they've solved it, that Albert Defalvo's the Boston strangler. 244 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: But you're not done. So kind of where did you go? 245 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: You've got this DNA. It's not a match. You've got 246 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: now a match of one of the other suspects. What 247 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: is happening? What are you doing with all this? 248 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: So you know, for the prime suspect and Mary's murder, 249 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: what I did is I owed him his story. I 250 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: knew where he was. He was actually working at a 251 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 2: golf pro at a golf resort in northern New England. 252 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: Had I gone to his home, he could have taken 253 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: a gun or a knife or something and you know, 254 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: done bodily harm to me and goodbye, Casey Sherman. So 255 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: I had to confront him in a public place. I 256 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: learned that he was a golf pro. So I booked 257 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 2: a golf lesson under an assumed name and I met 258 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: him on the golf course. I was wearing a disguise. 259 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: I took the disguise off and it was like the 260 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 2: ghost of Christmas past had come back to haunt him. 261 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: And we spoke for about an hour, he gave me 262 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: his alibi that I was able to eventually disprove, and 263 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: I walked away that day knowing that in my heart 264 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: I had found the killer of Mary Sullivan, my aunt. 265 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: Now did Boston or Massachusetts law enforcement want to hear that? 266 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: Certainly they did not. What people don't realize and you do, Cheryl, 267 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: is that Albert Disavo was never even charged with any 268 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: of the Boston strangler murders. They're still considered open but 269 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 2: not active today. What I've learned subsequent to that time, Cheryl, 270 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: and this is the most frightening discovery of all, is 271 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: that you mentioned eleven strangling victims at the beginning of 272 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: the show. Well, I now can point to at least 273 00:16:54,320 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: forty seven women strangled with Boston strangler stuff, murder techniques 274 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: and tools now across a span of years from nineteen 275 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 2: sixty two to nineteen sixty nine, across the United States. Now, 276 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 2: people compare the Boston strangler case to Jack the Ripper, 277 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 2: but I think it's more comparable to the Salem witch trials. 278 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: And what I mean by that, Cheryl, is these murders 279 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: created a hysteria amongst men in the United States who 280 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 2: wanted to commit Boston strangler style murders. The most terrifying 281 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: thing of all, Cheryl, is that these murders weren't committed 282 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: by one man. They were committed by over a dozen 283 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: men across eleven states. 284 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: All Right, I told y'all he was going to knock 285 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: you out. So let me ask you. Of the forty seven, 286 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: do you believe five twenty might be copycats? Do you 287 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: think it might be Hey, somebody realized I want to 288 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: start killing women. There's no better place than Boston right now. 289 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: If I use Stockings, just strangler, they'll blame it on 290 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: that guy. 291 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 2: So Boston was the epicenter for sure, Cheryl. And there 292 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 2: were actually more victims in Boston than just eleven. I 293 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 2: always thought my aunt, nineteen year old Mary Sullivan, was 294 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: the youngest victim, when in fact, the youngest victim was 295 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: only five years old, a young girl named Ellen Gamage, 296 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: who was abducted from a playground, strangled, assault, and then 297 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 2: left in a blueberry patch forty miles south of Boston. 298 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: And while that murder was happening, Albert Salva was already 299 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 2: incarcerated on unrelated crimes, confessing to the Boston strangler case. 300 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: You had a number of teenagers younger than my aunt 301 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 2: Mary murdered all over New England, and the newspapers and 302 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: the police departments at the time were investigating these homicides. 303 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 2: Then these homicides start to happen outside of New England, Oakland, California, 304 00:18:53,400 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 2: Upstate Michigan, Austin, Texas, Hollywood, California, Cincinnati, Ohio, were five 305 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: women were strangled in nineteen sixty six. There is actually 306 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 2: a Cincinnati strangler. If you do your Google research, you 307 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: can come up with all the newspaper reports at the time, Pensacola, Florida, 308 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: even Paris, France. It was an hysteria, a strangle mania 309 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: if you will, that took hold of men, you know, 310 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 2: who wanted to do harm against women. So, yes, most 311 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 2: of these stranglings were copycats. 312 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: Okay, so we're looking at multiple people, multiple states, even 313 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: countries that knew enough of the Boston strangler's mo because 314 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: it was in the newspaper, it was celebrated. 315 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 2: And raise a good point. Now today's news media does 316 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: not get that explicit in their reporting of homicides because 317 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: they can't. But back in the nineteen sixties, every detail 318 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 2: of a murder was basically reprinted in the newspapers, and 319 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: oftentimes journalists, looking to get a hea line or to 320 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 2: have more people read their newspapers, would invent information and 321 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 2: put it in the newspapers. And why I mentioned that 322 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: is because when Albert Tsalvo began to confessing to these murders, 323 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 2: he was regurgitating misinformation that had been printed in the 324 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: newspapers at the time. Now, you mentioned the family of 325 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: the lead detective, and John Denatally or fildan Itally, who 326 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: was one of the detectives in the strangler case. He 327 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 2: wasn't the lead detective. He was just one of the detectives. 328 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: You look at families like that, and I think that 329 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: they don't want to necessarily, you know, revisit the past 330 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 2: because their entire you know, family history has been based 331 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 2: on their loved one catching the Boston Strangler. But that's 332 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: a myth. Nobody caught Albert de Salvo. He was already 333 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: in jail and he was confessing two crimes that didn't happen. 334 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: The person that actually took the interrogation wasn't a seasoned 335 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: investigator at all. His name was John Bottomley, and he 336 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: was the Assistant Attorney General of Massachusetts John Bottomley's history. 337 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 2: He'd been an eminent domain lawyer from Massachusetts, a real 338 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 2: estate lawyer, who had no experience ever investigator or investigating 339 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: or interrogating a suspect in any criminal matter. And here 340 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: he is confronting what, you know, some believed at the 341 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: time was the most dangerous serial killer in American history. 342 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: So how did Albert DeSalvo get all this information? I've 343 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: heard it from you, but I want the audience to 344 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: hear how he started confessing and how he got any 345 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: of the facts. 346 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned definitely Bailey, who you know, had been 347 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: one of my arch nemesis, you know, during the course 348 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: of my investigative career. But we actually later became dear friends, 349 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: and I wrote the prologue to Lee's last book before 350 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: he passed away. Well f Lee. Bailey was representing a young, 351 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 2: cold hearted killer named George Nasser in nineteen sixty four. 352 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 2: Nassar was one of the real Boston stranglers who had 353 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: in fact murdered maybe four to five of the murder 354 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 2: victims in the general Boston area. And George Nasser was 355 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 2: cellmates with Albert Tasalvo, and Nasser needed money to support 356 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 2: his defense because he thought he was going to be 357 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: getting out of prison for murdering a gas station attendant, 358 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: so he needed to pay flee Bailey, and the only 359 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: way he could do that was getting a guy like 360 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: Albert Tasalvo to confess to the crimes because there was 361 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: what they believed one hundred thousand dollars reward for information 362 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: leading to the Boston strangler arrest, and so DeSalvo and 363 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: Nassar had kind of dollar signs in their eyes. DeSalvo 364 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: confessed with information handed to him by Naser. He confessed 365 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: to the crimes and oftentimes went off script giving false 366 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 2: information in his interrogation, which is one of the reasons 367 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: why he was never charged with any of the murders, 368 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 2: because they would never have been able to convict him 369 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 2: in a court of in a criminal court because all 370 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: the information, or most of it, was inaccurate. 371 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: Okay, well, you have done the line's share of the 372 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: work gathering, collecting, and reporting on this case. What do 373 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: you think is the most critical piece of evidence to 374 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: show there was more than one killer? Just one thing? 375 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: There are several things, you know, not only the DNA 376 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: test of my aunt's remains, but going back to the 377 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 2: original case files. Looking at these cases going back to 378 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: the original reporting and the public statements made by police 379 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 2: at the time. I worked with one of the Boston 380 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 2: Strangler homicide detectives, Jim Mellon, who was adamant that Albert 381 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 2: Salvo was not the killer. In fact, a Salvo told 382 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: him he was not the killer, and he had serious 383 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 2: suspects in at least six of these Boston homicides. Now, 384 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: as I mentioned, there are dozens of unsolved homicides across 385 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: the United States Boston Strangler type murders that still need 386 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 2: to be judicated and solved. There's no statute limitation on 387 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: murder Cheryl, so these cases are still open and should 388 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: be looked at with a clear eye. I would press 389 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: your audience to just go on to NBC Peacock or 390 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 2: the USA Network and watch Boston Strangler Unheard confession and 391 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 2: here DeSalvo in his own words, and make your own 392 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: judgment on whether or not he was confessing to events 393 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 2: that never happened, or whether he was the killer. 394 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: Do you have a prosecutor open to listening to you. 395 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: No, I mean, it's ancient history. As far as the 396 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 2: prosecutors in Massachusetts, are you know how they believe things 397 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: are happening. So and what they're I think afraid of 398 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: is lawsuits. Lawsuits not by my family, but other families 399 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 2: that will come up and say, you knew you got 400 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: the wrong guy in the nineteen sixties and you let 401 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 2: my you know, loved ones murderer go free. So I 402 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: think there's a lot of political pressure to keep this 403 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: case kind of under wraps a little bit. But as 404 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 2: I say, you know, we're all students of this case. 405 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 2: Even I'm a student of this case. Yes I'm an expert, 406 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 2: but I'm learning new things every day, and I would 407 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: just ask your audience and ask any investigator be open 408 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: to new material that may change your mind on you know, 409 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: how you think these cases were not only investigated at 410 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 2: the time, but how they may have also been covered 411 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: up over the last fifty years. 412 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: So I know you've lost your mama now, but I 413 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: know what your work meant to her. I mean, you 414 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: showcased her sister, you talked about her. We didn't really 415 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,479 Speaker 1: know anything about all the victims like you presented Mary 416 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: to us. I can tell you my students reading a 417 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: Rose for Mary changed the way they investigate cases, and 418 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: now at their respected departments. So you know that had 419 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: to mean so much to her that you would do that. 420 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think you did, and I appreciate you saying that, Jeryld, 421 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: you know, you know she wanted justice for her sister. 422 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 2: My mother is the real hero in this story. It's 423 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 2: not me and I maybe the conduit of some of 424 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 2: the information, but she was the person that didn't back down, 425 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: that refused to give up hope that at least should 426 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: find some answers to the murder of her, of her 427 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,239 Speaker 2: beloved sister. You know, and you talk about, you know, 428 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: Albert DeSalvo being stabbed to death in prison in nineteen 429 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: seventy three, Well he was stabbed to death just days 430 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 2: before he was going to recant his confession to the 431 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 2: entire world. So this was really to keep him quiet. 432 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: I interviewed the actual prison guards who were on duty 433 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 2: in November nineteen sixty three, and I'm sorry November nineteen 434 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: seventy three, and they were paid to look the other way. 435 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: They saw the killer get in and get out of 436 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: the prison infirmary with a knife covered in blood, and 437 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: nobody saw a thing. 438 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:21,479 Speaker 1: Now. 439 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: I also uncovered Ryll dozens of letters written by Albert 440 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 2: DeSalvo in his own hands in one of the smoking guns. 441 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: That also leads me to believe he wasn't the killer 442 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: is that he wrote a letter telling people that he 443 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: was going to recant the confession, that he was going 444 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 2: to name names, that he was going to blow up 445 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: this entire case, and within days he staffed it in. 446 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: You know, we both have mentioned Flee Bailey. When I 447 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: talked to him about this case, I said to him, well, 448 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: you know, this case kind of elevated your fame, and 449 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: you even bought a helicopter and he granted and he said, 450 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: I bought a hellic copter company. 451 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 2: Yeah that sounds like. 452 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean it did elevate him. There's no 453 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: doubt it made him famous. 454 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 2: Oh no, I mean he became an international name. At 455 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: the time, he had just defended doctor Sam Shepherd, which 456 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 2: was inspired the TV show in the movie The Fugitive, 457 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: But the Boston strangler case really put him on the map. 458 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: And as I mentioned, he and I battled on cable 459 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 2: TV for years. Finally we get together for lunch. A 460 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 2: mutual friend of ours put us together and I said, well, 461 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 2: when hell Freeze is over, am I ever going to 462 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: sit down with me, Bailey and s far enough we did, 463 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: and you know, we each learned a little bit from 464 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: each other and help that we were drinking heavily at 465 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 2: that time, and two Irish guys start singing Irish fight 466 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: songs and we're stumbling out of the bar with our 467 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: arms wrapped around each other. And as I said, we 468 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: became great friends after that. Bailey is a crafty, crafty attorney. 469 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: You know. 470 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: I had to give him his props in terms of 471 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 2: how he was able to kind of manipulate this case, 472 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: you know, in the nineteen sixties and elevate himself and 473 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: doing so for his own reasons. But you know, do 474 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: I believe what he was doing was wrong? Certainly, and 475 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 2: I told him that, and so there was never any 476 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 2: dancing around how he felt about the case with each other. 477 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: We did become friends, you know, unlikely friends, if you will. 478 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: After that. 479 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: Well, it's hard not to get drawn in by just 480 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: his charisma and his stories in his life. I mean, 481 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: he I mean, you know, let's face it, I mean, 482 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: he was who he was. But as far as American 483 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: history and famous crimes go, his name is there a lot. 484 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: There's a tribute, no, And he was, as you mentioned 485 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 2: a very charming guy. You know, I kind of you know, 486 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 2: I thought of him as my crazy uncle by at 487 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: the end. 488 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yep. Well, 489 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: let me just say one thing about Zone seven that 490 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: I love is I try to have something that a 491 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: young detective or a rookie can take and just kind 492 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: of put in their mental toolbox. And one thing you 493 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: said that is just hauntingly accurate is the case the 494 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: investigation doesn't end. It doesn't end at arrest. It doesn't 495 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: even necessarily end after somebody's convicted. If there's any loose ends, 496 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: anything that needs to be tied up, you need to 497 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: tie up. And I am telling you, in twenty ten, 498 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: this was the biggest case the Cold Case Investigative Research 499 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: Institute had ever worked on. When it was quote solved 500 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: in you know, twenty thirteen, we thought this is awesome. 501 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: You know. We said that they need to a zoom 502 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: him and cross check the DNA. We thought that's great. 503 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: We had an action plan, we had a solvability factor, 504 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 1: and we were done. And it was and I'd followed you. 505 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen all the movies, I've got all 506 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: your books, but I had not heard you talk, honey 507 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: until we were at the Hampton's, and I'm like, what 508 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: have we missed? I've got to get him on the 509 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: Zone seven because people need to know there is more 510 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: of the story. And I also love the fact that 511 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: you keep saying, listen to his words and make your 512 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: own mind up. And that is to me one of 513 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: the best things that you can tell anybody, whether they're 514 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: detective or not, make your own mind up. 515 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, one hundred percent. And you know this 516 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: this documentary that is out now. I actually asked the producers, 517 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 2: I said, interview John Dinna Telly. He's got a different, 518 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 2: you know, viewpoint than I do. You know, I want 519 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: you know, I want these different you know, conversation is productive. 520 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 2: As long as it's productive, it's great. You know, let's 521 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: agree over the evidence again and again. There may be 522 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,959 Speaker 2: something I missed early, maybe be something you missed, but 523 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 2: be open to it. Be open to, you know, a 524 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 2: change of the parrot if you will. That's what separates 525 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 2: the real investigators from you know, the not so real investigators. 526 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: In my opinion, Yeah, and I believe in going to 527 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: the source. I don't care who the source is, whether 528 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: they're a criminal or a police officer or a prosecutor, 529 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: go to the source. And you know, when I met 530 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: with John, he said, of all the movies, all the books, 531 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: all the magazines, he said, do you know you're the 532 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: first person that's ever coming here. And I said, well, 533 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. You got to look at it. 534 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: And when I looked to that file, I was so 535 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: impressed by just the you know, seene drawings that their 536 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: dad had done, and the painstaking work that he had 537 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: put in sitting at their kitchen table that he drew 538 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: by hand like it was insane. And uh, you know 539 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: when I've said that at every police academy that I've 540 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: talked about cold cases, I said, you know, y'all like 541 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: y'all can't do a sketch, it ain't got to be good, 542 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: But you act like you can't do one much less 543 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: what he did to scale with no computer equipment that 544 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: we have today. So it's all a good lesson. But 545 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: you know, Casey Sherman, I appreciate you. I appreciate you 546 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: being a part of my Zone seven. I appreciate you 547 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: answering the phone in two thousand and nine. I appreciate 548 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: you buying me lunch because that was I'm telling you 549 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: all the best time chowder I've ever had, and I 550 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: just appreciate you sharing Mary's story. I think it's powerful 551 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: and important. 552 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: Same here Eryl, Well, thank you, and again thanks to 553 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 2: your audience for listening. And as I said, make up 554 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 2: your own mind, whether it's the case that we're talking 555 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: about today or a case that somebody might be investigating. 556 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: On their own. I'm going to end Zone seven the 557 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: way that I always do with a quote. There was 558 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: not a single serial killer. There were several. Casey Sherman, 559 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: author and nephew of Mary Sullivan. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and 560 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: this is Own seven