WEBVTT - Ep. 268: Clovis Points and Man’s Best Friend 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.760 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:18.360 severely bug bitten in my case underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:24.480 can't predict anything presented by first Light, Go Farther, stay longer, 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:35.479 joined today by my favorite ever podcast guest. Now, I 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.560 say I throw that around, not liberally by throwing around, 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.879 but this is true. Professor David Meltzer, Who just were 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:45.159 you in this studio when you just did your online class? 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.080 I did? I did? He just taught an online class 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:53.360 in the studio prior to the recording about Clovis. Perfect timing, 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.160 wasn't it. I wish I would have been here early. Well, 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:58.200 you know when you show up late for class D. 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.240 This is the this is the price you miss. You miss, 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:03.280 you missed the good stuff. In fact, it was the 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:07.920 best lecture I ever gave you. I was rolling and 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:10.679 were you. I'm looking out the window thinking where Steve. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:13.960 He's supposed to be here. You were bringing it. Um, 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.880 we have a guy, uh engineer accepted our challenge. We 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.760 wanted to get a a light Let me back up. 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.080 A body mine years ago was getting paid to go 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.480 watch commercials, and beer commercials in particular, and they would 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:30.720 pay him to watch beer commercials, and he had a dial, 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:32.920 and the more he liked the beer commercial, he turned 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.040 his dial up. A whole bunch of guys watching beer 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.920 commercials and they dial what parts they have, you know, 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.680 whether they're into it or not. And I wanted to 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.400 get one of those for this room. And an electrical 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.600 engineer is making this one that has five dials. Mechanical 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.680 engineer has five dials. And as someone's talking what you 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.400 don't need, you don't know where it's coming from. But 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.640 I could like turn mine down and the light in 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.200 the middle with dim and that would know that that 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:08.359 there's fading interest. I would right now if I had 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.080 that here, right now, I would turn mine on full 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.760 blast and I wouldn't catch it. Could already be on 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.200 full blast. When I re listened to the last episode 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.640 you were on, David Steve introduced you the same way, 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:22.040 said you're his favorite guest. So what he means it, 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.000 I think he means it. I told him earlier that 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.640 he was he used to be. Uh. We thought that 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.360 he his his bridges were too big for us, and 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:33.760 so we would go after. We would target his students 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:36.519 and then got the man himself. And what was the 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.680 analogy he made that. Um, it's like if we were 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:41.720 trying to get John Lennon on the show and got 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.560 stuck with a ringo. We're not going to name names 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:49.600 of the students, who, incidentally, is how I get some 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:54.040 of my speaking gigs. So that was good. The next 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:59.160 time you bump into Steve, say hi, it doesn't return 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.200 to emails that I have, but we still like them 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:06.040 being ringos. That still bad though? Uh? Is he the one? 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:11.960 There's still a beat? Are any of them left? And ringo? Sure? 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.480 Yeah huh? Also joined by, of course, filled the engineer, 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.840 crns here, Spencer's here, Cal's here. Um, so that that's 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.720 for Yanni's dad. The High Life Man series of beer 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.400 commercials will go down in history has the best beer commercials. 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.520 We'll just say that before we move on. You might 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.679 be a Highlife Man? Is that old one? Oh? They're 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.760 not that old. But they're just like nostalgic and hilarious 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.920 and well written. But but but but was the beer 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.040 any good? I mean, isn't That doesn't matter when it 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.320 comes to beer commercials. It's not They're not tying it 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.560 to the taste of the beer I used to drink. Well, 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:49.960 I don't want to explain what beer I used to 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:54.080 drink and why they want you to associate with the product. Yeah, 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.240 haven't be representative of you, right, And if the first 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.600 taste is no good and you spit it out, they've 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.040 lost the war. Well, mg D for a long time, 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:04.760 you would look in your bottle. So if you look 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:06.960 through your bottle to the label on the other side, 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.880 it would be people partying. There's like pictures of people partying. 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:11.960 So I'd like to drink that because I could look 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.080 in there and I feel like I was partying that. 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:17.880 Yeah that one day look in there and it's a 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:23.440 basketball hoop. Yeah, never ordered that stuff. We got a 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:28.479 quick clarification. So, uh, I'm gonna call them are good friends. 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:30.800 At Murdocks If you don't have murdocks around, Murdocks is 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.480 like a farming ranch. I think it's pretty regional, right, 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.720 It's a farm and ranch supply place. I was observing 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:42.720 how I was in at Murdocks buying some stuff. I'll 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.560 say what I was buying. I was buying a syringe 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:53.360 from the livestock, the cattle syringe stuff, and uh, and 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.080 noticed that you could round up your donation and I 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.920 noticed it was for the it said the Humane Society 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:00.320 on it, and I thought that was weird because the 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.279 Humane Society, as we all know, it's kind of like 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.960 the leading one of the leading anti hunting organizations out there, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:09.880 and they're always filing, you know, every time there's a 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:11.440 suit file that you always see that they're like a 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.600 signator to the suit. But when I was screwed up 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:16.599 about we're kind of each a little bit wrong because 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.720 I was there's there's an organization called the Humane Society 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.880 of the United States, and they're the ones that's always 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.200 they're always sueing everybody, like they're suing to stop that, 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:29.160 you know, they don't want you to be able to 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.120 fish in the local pond or whatever to be them 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.800 suing um. Not to be confused like Humane Society is 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.880 more generally around animal shelters. So anyways, we talked about 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:40.760 this and then Kran has some back and forth with 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.559 Murdoch's the store and they're they're changing their thing around 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.280 and apparently we're the first people to bring that up. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.120 No affiliation, it's local animal shelters, Yeah, exactly, they're raising 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.320 up money. So as Krann brought in an exam don't 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.240 know why she brought this example if your purchase was 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.960 ten dollars and sixty two cents just what I don't know, 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.800 Like Curran pointed out that you would be donating thirty 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:08.880 eight cents if you round it up. That's great. It's 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:10.760 a great example because I think a lot of people 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:12.520 can't picture it right. And then you put it in 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.200 those concrete terms, and then you're like, oh, yeah, right, yeah, 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.760 I mean you you you put your I don't know, liquorice, 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.520 and because you've always got those weird huge like some 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.640 you know, dog dog bones or something, and your purchases 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.800 ten sixty two and when you're about to make your 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.320 purchase on the pin pad, it'll say, would you like 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.560 to round to the nearest dollar? And this is the charity, 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.120 this is the organization we donate to. It's not going 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:45.360 to say animal shelters. I feel like that that think 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:47.320 about it like this a long time ago. If your 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:52.640 name was Richard, what would be your nickname Dick? Over 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:58.440 the years though, uh the name Dick parallel path with 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:06.320 another use of the word. Now Richards go by Rick. Oh. 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.880 I feel like humane, like like I feel like this 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.720 has happened with the Humane society question it's gonna be 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.440 a while until girls start being named Karen again. I 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:22.600 feel like, oh that that name has been sullied. Uh 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:27.480 and talking about wolves are good friend, Jim Halflfinger wrote 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:31.400 in Um, of course, Jim is a wildlife expert and 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.280 policy guy and biology guy down in Arizona. The hell's 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:42.600 this official title? He's an academic. I was pointing out, 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:47.360 this is a correction. I was saying that the Mexican 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:53.280 gray wolf had no geographical separation from other wolves, and 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.640 they all just bled into each other. That's my understanding, right, 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:03.280 there's no it would be like the only we to 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.040 put in terms of turkeys real quick. So we have 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:12.280 these five varieties of subspecies of turkeys, and um, we 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.920 talked about the Osceola, which the osceolil turkey is sits 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.440 kind of like south of Lake okachobe in Florida, and 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.480 then the eastern turkey is north of Lake Okachobee in Florida. 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.800 There's no fence between Osceolas and Easterns. They just just 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.600 we arbitrarily drew a line. And I was done the 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:30.480 impression with wolves that there was this sort of like 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:36.080 arbitrary line drawn where um, the Mexican wolf. You know, 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:37.720 we just drew a line and said, Okay, if it's 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:39.600 south of that, it's a Mexican wolf, it's north of that, 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.080 it's not. And heffel Finger pointed out that's in fact 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:48.480 not the case. And there were these very arid prey 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:57.600 scarce areas um areas around between Colorado and Utah Um 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:02.160 that did cause some genetic bear years historic genetic barriers 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:05.440 between different groups of wolves. And he goes on to 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.679 say that the Mexican gray wolf is the most genetically 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:13.080 distinct wolf subspecies in North America, and that would not 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.760 be true if they had historically blended in with other 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:22.760 types of wolves. Half a Finger also has this to say, this, 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:29.680 you'll appreciate this cow for hunters in Colorado to be 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.520 griping about funding wolf recovery, which we talked about, and 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.960 I kind of graped about it myself. Um, he thinks 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:40.559 it's a it's a it does a disservice to hunters. Um. 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.280 And how can we run around so proudly talking about 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:52.199 recovering wild turkeys, recovering deer, right, recovering all these species, 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:54.320 but then it comes to recovering wolves. Will will be 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:56.640 like I want nothing to do with that. He said, 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:01.000 what a pr triumph? Do that too, And if it 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.360 costs you a couple of elk tags because of wolves 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:09.480 eaten some elk here and there, who cares. It's like 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:11.720 you're if if hunters want to claim you're in the 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.920 business of recovery, you're in the business of wildlife. Um, 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.319 be true to your message. I agree with that, he 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:22.960 goes He goes on to say anti hunters would be 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:27.160 besides themselves in conflicted confusion if you could pull out. 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:33.600 So there's a the theory of biological selection based on 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:39.839 like game uh conditions is something do you know this 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.200 with a with a ladder? And I can't come up 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.160 with a term right now, but that that's what it is. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:48.280 It's like, you know, you're defined by your environment and 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.680 so there is no like state line or you know 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.120 fans that there's gonna be one species on one side 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.080 of and the other. It's just like this developed thing 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:04.920 over millennia of certain body types are selected for certain 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.160 environments where that body type is going to be way 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:15.320 better at surviving based on the game the rainfall uh, 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:19.800 you know, places to hide one way dubs, stuff like that. 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.280 Dr Meltzer. He will probably give us the right terminology 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:27.600 by here described as morphological distinctions rather than genetic distinctions. 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.120 Is that okay, Yeah, I suspect these are all subspecies 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:34.120 and that um, what you've got are different subspecies that 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:38.600 have adapted better to those particular niches um, those particular 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:42.920 kind of ecosystems. And so really what you're seeing is 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.520 um populations that are settling into a range, and they're 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.360 staying in that range. Uh, And there will be introgression, 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.240 They'll be gene flow between these populations because they are 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.000 part of the same species. There's no reason why they 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.800 couldn't interbreede and probably did out on the boundaries of 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.240 each of those their ranges, right where the two of 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:04.080 them would occasionally uh intersect one another. So, yeah, you're 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.640 going to have that kind of movement. But you're right. 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:11.800 I mean, if you've got particular taxa or particular populations 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.360 that natural selection you know, by the luck of the 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.960 draw uh and over time and adaptation, over time, they 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.719 will be better adapted to a particular environment, a more 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:26.719 desert environment or a more wooded environment, whatever. Right, that's 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.400 just down. Natural selection works over time. Now you give 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.000 it a long enough time and you make those um, 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:38.520 those those ecological areas distinct enough, and you know, reduce 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.160 any kind of gene flow or introgression ultimately, and you've 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.080 got to give it tens of thousands, if not hundreds 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.320 of thousands of years, which we have no patience for, 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.720 by the way, not in this room. Um, you could 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.079 end up with different species species. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.520 just evolution. You know. Darwin had all this figured out 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:57.839 in eighteen fifty nine. Yeah, And so like I went 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.400 down the rabbit hole on this thing, speaking a gam 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.160 and then speaking with a bunch of the pro Colorado 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.960 wolf reintroduction at folks, you know, and there is a 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:14.120 serious division on well, who cares if this larger gray 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:19.240 wolf intermingles with the Mexican wolves because that's like a 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:24.160 natural thing and they'll figure it out right, And then 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.080 you get into this genetic swamping uh type of discussion, 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:33.120 where um, there now we're dealing with such a small 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:38.200 population of Mexican wolves that there there is a real 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:42.920 possibility of genetic swamping and how this larger wolf, all 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.160 the trades of the larger wolf are going to overrun 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.640 the traits of this this smaller genetic pool of Mexican 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:55.000 wolves and we just don't have the luxury of a 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.080 big gene pool down here and a big gene pool 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.680 up here and tens of thousands of years for them 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:08.319 to and if million dollars getting that very small group 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.640 of Mexican wolves going, yes, so of then have a 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:17.000 bunch of ye who's in Colorado vote for this and 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.640 which is funny because it's citizens vote for this, and 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.360 then undo that there's probably a lot of people that 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.480 are dedicated to that that great that Mexican wolf recovery 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.040 who are kind of like and it's also an Endangered 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.280 Species Act thing, right, so you can argue that the 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:35.200 reintroduction of these wolves is like actually anti Endangered Species 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:40.600 Act because it threatens this listed wolf that we are 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.080 dedicated to recovery. Yeah, you can make one of those 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.080 documentaries that no one watches about all this. Uh okay, 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:56.080 cal Um, did you see how Creant even wrote a 0:14:56.080 --> 0:15:01.680 transition for you? I did. It's good. That's full that's 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:05.000 full service right there. Dude. She's like with Cal, she's 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.160 still worried about Cal's performance. She had to write a 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:12.000 transition for him. She's like, he'll never he'll never, he's 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:21.120 got nothing. I need more. Moms wrote his transition for him, 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:28.920 so I got I was. I was also a hand 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.040 delivered a joke the other day because I selected a 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:37.480 bugs bunny. Um uh, you know what do you call it? 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.600 He's on your little kids? But band aids? Uh and uh. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.440 I was supposed to take that picture of that band 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.000 aid on my shoulder and say, that's all folks posted 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:53.560 on Instagram. Yeah, um, let's do it. No, I had 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.640 the band aid came off too fast for my brain 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:58.760 to react. I just had a guy in New Zealand 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.040 send me this is a the nice idea. This is 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:06.160 right up your alley. Cow sent me. He's making band aids, 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:13.360 no plastics, band aids out of marino wool, which is 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:18.200 naturally anti microbial because the fibers are so fine reduces 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.560 the amount of surface area that bacteria grows on. Everybody 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:26.840 knows that I didn't need a MoMA for that. Okay, 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.520 he accounts, and I'm getting nervous. Sorry, okay. COVID vaccine 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.760 was recently used on great apes. Isn't a gorilla part 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.040 of the great ape family? Not just eight it's all 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:45.040 the dudes with no tails. I think isn't it Bobo, Yeah, chips, 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:51.240 the ranks and gorillas. Yeah. Um, so there is a 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.240 COVID vaccine trialed on mink. And the mink part of 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.240 the story is pretty interesting because if you go over 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:03.640 to Europe, big mink farms were cold. Like we're talking 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.520 to the tune of hundreds of thousands of mink right, yes, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:12.080 in Denmark, sorry Denmark. Yeah, I bet they didn't have 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.960 a lot of press show up on that day. Oh 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.320 what are they? I guess they're probably like gas and 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.840 gas chambers and stuff. Yeah, I don't know, take a 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:28.119 lot of water to anyway. Um and but we so 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.160 we also had COVID show up in farmed mink populations 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.640 in in Utah here in the States, but they were 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:39.480 not cold. Um, there's a trial vaccine that was used 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.520 on mink. And then they're using this vaccine on the 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.280 Grade eight population in the San Diego Zoo. And I 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:51.920 thought they did this in New York as well. But um, 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:56.480 and the you know, it's a little interesting, it's a 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.159 little controversial. Brings to brings to mind a bunch of 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:01.720 like sci fi books and stuff I've read over the years. 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.360 I could I could identify a couple areas of controversy 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.359 is on one hand, you probably have the crowd who 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:13.280 would say, well, how could they be vaccinating mink and 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:16.879 grillis and whatnot? And I haven't got mine yet, Like 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.480 that's that, like as though it would have gone to them, 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:23.320 like as though they would have gotten it. Yeah, I'm 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.600 sure that there's that. There's probably man things, But I 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.320 was surprised to see in this story that an asymptomatic 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:33.800 zoo keeper um spread the virus to eight gorillas that 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.600 tested positive. Yeah, do you know what, Maggie here in 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.720 our office is convinced that her dog died of COVID. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:46.399 She's got a very compelling, very compelling timeline symptomology. But 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.520 that's the origin of many of our diseases. They're zoonotic, 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.080 and they get something that's relatively benign in one species, 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:57.200 when it gets into another can become very deadly and virulent. 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.280 And most of the major epidemic disease us is that 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.000 humans have suffered from over the last ten thousand years 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.000 have come from animals originally, And why can't they go 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:10.560 back in the other direction? Exactly to me? And that 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.880 that is the argument here, right, It's like uh, we 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:18.720 need especially maybe not so much the great you know, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.720 the limited Great eight population the San Diego Zoo of 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:28.639 eight individuals. But if you look at how uh something 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:34.080 could transform in like a mink farm with thousands of individuals, 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:35.960 or let's say like a chicken farm or a hog 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.359 farm where you have thousands of individuals in close contact 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:45.480 in one space, you could see how um a virus 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:51.080 could evolve very quickly. Right, So yes, I mean super 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.760 super interesting. I'll tell you a take on this this farm, 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.680 this this mink farm thing is um. Wild fur prices 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:04.119 are often tied very directly to ranch output. So I 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.959 remember that guy I can't remember said it's like globally 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:14.320 or something, the not trapped in the wild ye and 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.040 people used you know, they used to be like all 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.600 over fox farms and mink farms and everything when people 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.359 back when people wore a lot of fur. UM. I 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:27.480 wonder if these die offs and killoffs at these ranch 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:32.760 facilities will in a year or two is time result 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:37.400 in like an explosion and value of wild fur as 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:42.959 the ranch facsimile as their production falters, and and no 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.320 doubt it probably takes to get to get going and 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.639 retooled I'd be curious to watch how that plays out. 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:52.160 I think Michigan is our number one farmed first aig. 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:58.280 I believe so. No, man, that makes me think they 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.880 don't do much of it really just well, I don't 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:03.879 think there's like big signs around and say hey we're 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:10.520 firing third bring me kids, all right, Spencer Krin didn't 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:18.560 give you a transition. What you guys see you help 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.400 this guy out. This guy looks slick. This guy looks slick, 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:27.080 and Spencer over here, you guys trying to set you 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.240 up for failure. I know you guys have gotten many 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:33.520 emails about that episode of Dr Alan Lazara, like saving lives, 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.640 specifically talking about the tourniquet. Three lives, three lives. That's many. 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.119 We got our first email about meat eater saving a 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.480 bird's life, Spencer's in particular, right, this is all Spencer 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:50.280 by example. Yeah, back in November. Back in November, I 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:54.480 told a story about how I found a an owl 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:57.680 in a barbedwire fence that I tried to save. Um 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.159 cute little story. Yeah, yeah, it didn't work out, but 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:05.080 it led me to a different part of the horrible, 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:10.960 got real plot twist. That story it was like when 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.800 you're watching The Departed and all of a sudden, the guy, 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:18.439 the main guy, got shot in the elevator. Yeah, and 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:20.080 you're like, oh, that's not where I saw this going 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:25.480 quite all of the character in that minute. And I 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:27.840 was like, that's what I didn't picture that. The Spencer 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:30.160 story has a lot it's very similar to The Departed. 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:37.240 So we got an email from Robbie from the Montana 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.680 f WP Region five h Q and Billings. He said 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:42.720 that he got a phone call from motorists that was 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:47.959 traveling east of Billings on the interstate. This motorist pulled 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:52.320 over to check on a hawk that was in the 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.920 ditch that looked injured. Excuse me, not a hawk and owl, 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:00.240 a great horned owl, great horned owl to check on it? 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:06.160 Is it proper to say horn or horned horned owl? Yeah, 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:09.520 So we stopped to check on this owl. Uh, that 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:13.560 was very much alive, but in very rough condition. So 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.200 this motorist, who it says was driving a produced truck, 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:18.720 which leaves me with some questions. And I don't know 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:22.960 what sort of produce he'd be hauling. Yeah, good question. 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:26.639 He was driving an autoparts truck. Would you wonder what 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:30.080 auto parts he was on, wouldn't It's like all tators 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:34.840 in college. I worked at Walmart for about six months 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:38.119 in the produce section, so I I love produce. Your 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:40.280 produce man, Yeah, to make up for the minimum wage 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:42.120 you got paid, I would just like graze on apples 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:46.360 and oranges all day. So I very particular about produce. 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:48.760 We know, we know the guys from Idahou, So maybe 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:56.440 some potato. Maybe there were seed potatoes or something potatoes 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:00.280 on the edge of my seat. He stopped to check 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.439 on this owl, calls the f w P UM and 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:05.280 he's talking to the guy at the f w P 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:08.440 who's named Robbie, and he says, yeah, I stopped to 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.720 check on this owl because I heard on the Meat 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:13.919 Eater podcast that there was a place in Montana that 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:17.720 will rehabilitate injured birds. And he said, what kind of 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:22.880 truck did he get hit by? When do you say produce? 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:28.760 Hold on before we're talking about this ol. So Robbie 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:31.920 confirms that the place that he uh sort of heard 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:36.320 about in the Mediator podcast is the Montana Raptor Conservation 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:38.720 Center in Bozeman. It turns out that the guy is 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:41.960 on his way through Bozeman on his way back to Idaho. 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:45.520 So they coordinated drop off at the Raptor Center and 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:47.840 the guy puts the owl in his produced truck and 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:50.560 he meets him at the exit at Bozeman. So Robbie 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:52.680 writes in to tell us that I think it's safe 0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:55.800 to say the Meat Eater podcast saved the life of 0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:59.199 an owl today if we ended the if only the 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:02.359 story end there, that's right, like my story. We have 0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:05.960 a story. But then Karan had to go and check 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:11.040 had to go and see how Yeah that doesn't fit 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:16.879 with the news cycle, right, So Karan, what did you hear? Okay? Yeah, 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:23.720 oh so sad so sadly. And they named this owl 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:27.880 great horn owl, number twenty. This owl did not make 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:31.960 it explain they're not their naming system. That's interesting. So 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:38.320 what I deduced is they will uh name the animal 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:42.800 based upon like its species, so great horn owl. And 0:25:43.480 --> 0:25:46.959 apparently this is case number twenty, so this is Raptor 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:52.840 of the year number twenty, so great horn owl number twenty. Um. 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:55.000 When when they when they named mine, I think it 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:57.280 was g h O and then I don't remember the number. 0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:01.879 It was like something but that was in right, Okay, 0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:03.640 So of last year, right, so this is this year. 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:07.960 The injuries to the owl were there was a compound 0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:15.200 fracture around its or on its left humorous shoulder, and 0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:18.399 they didn't put the owl through kind of the trauma 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:22.280 of surgery UM because the problem with the compound fracture 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:25.639 for something like a bird is what they would normally 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:29.639 do UM is put a pin through the bone to 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:34.680 kind of stabilize it. But you can't with the shoulder. 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:37.600 You can't really do that. It would cause tissue damage. 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:42.359 And even if surgery was performed on the bird, he 0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:45.159 wouldn't be able to fly, you know, even after he 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:49.440 had healed up, So he would have one working wing 0:26:49.480 --> 0:26:53.760 and another non working wing, so be ground based owl. Yes, 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:57.120 it would be hopping around. Al I'm gonna walk over 0:26:57.160 --> 0:27:03.160 and get that right, um. Yeah. So they discovered this 0:27:03.240 --> 0:27:06.280 in an X ray and found also many the bone 0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:09.240 had shattered, So instead of put the owl through the 0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:12.320 trauma of surgery, they knew he wasn't going to make 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:15.600 it anyway, and they euthanized him. The phone call that 0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:20.160 I received from the Montana Raptor Center when they happened 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:22.760 back in November, it was unlike any I had before. 0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:26.159 They handled me very very gently, as though they were 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:28.879 delivering the news that I lost my mother or something 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:31.399 like that. Um, they like had to build up to it, 0:27:31.720 --> 0:27:33.840 explained what happened, and then they delivered the news and 0:27:34.160 --> 0:27:38.280 they were like real apologetic and explained why this had 0:27:38.320 --> 0:27:40.960 to happen, uh the way it did and stuff like that. 0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:43.760 So they are a great crew. There's an old joke 0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:47.399 about that. I'll tell you the punch line. The punch 0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:50.680 line is how's mom? Uh, she's up on the roof. 0:27:52.359 --> 0:27:57.000 It's a great joke. Um, I don't get it. You don't. 0:27:57.000 --> 0:27:58.680 I didn't tell you the joke. I still the punch line. 0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:03.760 You have to look it up. This guy, this guy 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:06.720 goes this Okay, this guy loves his cat. He's got 0:28:06.720 --> 0:28:08.399 to go overseas for a work trip. He leaves his 0:28:08.400 --> 0:28:10.600 cat with his brother right away, lands calls his brother 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.760 and brothers like cats dead. And later he's like, man, 0:28:13.800 --> 0:28:16.800 you could you know, kind of delivered it more slowly, 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:18.480 like maybe like the cats on the roof and then 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:20.600 you know the cats, We got the cat off the roof. 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:23.160 He's not looking too good, you know. So he goes anyways, 0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:26.120 Hell's Mom? And he's like, ah, she's up on the roof. 0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:35.280 So um. Oh, last thing, you were drawing parallels between 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:39.880 saving lives with tourniquets and birds. But people write us 0:28:39.920 --> 0:28:43.880 in about saving lives with tourniquets, right, it'd be great 0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:46.600 if you can find us a happy ending rafter story. 0:28:47.480 --> 0:28:49.280 From what I get, they're talking to them that there's 0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:51.200 not a whole lot of them when it all gets 0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:54.840 hit by vehicle. Vehicle collisions are hard on him. Yeah, 0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:56.920 winds it up in a fence. Not a whole lot 0:28:56.960 --> 0:28:59.560 of them make it. You'll be searching for a while. Yeah, 0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:01.680 I wonder what the percentage of you know, over the 0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:03.960 course of a year, how many birds they accept and 0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:08.360 what percentage? Uh you know, actually the fact that they 0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:11.600 entertained it must mean that it's not impossible. Oh sure, Yeah, 0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:14.360 mom thump day owl and her school bus the other 0:29:14.480 --> 0:29:18.320 day had what happened. You know, a mom drives school 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:21.600 bus and she she thumped an owl in the school 0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:24.120 bus with kids on board. Well, that's what I asked, 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:28.840 and she said no. But that was like so obviously good, 0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:31.680 you know, no trauma for the kids. And and apparently 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:33.840 mom stopped the school bus on the road and searched 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:36.000 for the owl for a while and I couldn't find it. 0:29:36.760 --> 0:29:40.160 You'll appreciate this, David, No, not that, but this. I 0:29:40.200 --> 0:29:43.160 have a friend named Ray the Rockman Baker, who's a 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:48.040 big arrowheadhunter. And he was a professional ego. He collected ego, 0:29:49.000 --> 0:29:52.600 but walking around looking at the ground, you inevitably turn 0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:56.800 up stuff. He was so good at finding arrowheads. He 0:29:56.880 --> 0:29:58.600 told me a story and he showed me where it happened. 0:29:58.600 --> 0:30:03.640 He was a bus driver. He one time swung his door, 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:06.800 you know they got that hand crank, swung the door 0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:11.080 open to let a kid on, looked and saw and 0:30:11.080 --> 0:30:14.160 found the arrowhead off on the side of a dirt road, 0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:17.680 picking a kid up out the school bus door. That's 0:30:17.680 --> 0:30:22.160 how good that guy was. Um. Okay, last time we spoke, 0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:24.320 you were I can't remember to what degree did you 0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:30.200 tease you're you're you're new. Do you call a book mountaineer? No? 0:30:30.440 --> 0:30:32.600 That was the first people's book that was I was 0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:35.000 finishing up well. No, no, no, you like either we 0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:37.440 got done recording and you brought it up, or you 0:30:37.560 --> 0:30:42.200 teased what would become your new, your forthcoming book. Yeah, 0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:44.479 I can't remember, but you didn't go into any kind 0:30:44.520 --> 0:30:47.360 of great detail. So for our discussion day, you want 0:30:47.360 --> 0:30:50.360 to start out in the mountaineer. Yeah, let's start on 0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:52.360 top of the mountain in the Rockies, because this is 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:56.040 a crazy story. Yeah. So this is a site that 0:30:56.160 --> 0:30:59.600 was discovered by a colleague of mine, Mark Steiger, at 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:03.600 what's called Western Colorado University in Gunnison, and I had 0:31:03.680 --> 0:31:06.959 just finished up a few years earlier, my excavations at 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:11.080 the Folsome type site. Did we talk about Folsome last time? No? Man, 0:31:11.120 --> 0:31:13.320 we could put this mountaineer thing on the hold. You 0:31:13.360 --> 0:31:16.200 could talk about Okay, let's let's start with Falsome. What 0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:17.840 the hell we did talk about Falsom? But we'll just 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:20.040 give it a review, Okay, okay for the kids that 0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:23.000 weren't listening the first time we did this. Uh, Falsome 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:27.200 is an extraordinarily important site. And it's not because I 0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:30.200 excavated there for three years. It's because of what happened 0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:32.200 there in the nineteen twenties. And what happened there in 0:31:32.200 --> 0:31:35.920 the nineteen twenties was that after fifty years of bitter, 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:39.760 long standing dispute and controversy over how long people have 0:31:39.840 --> 0:31:43.840 been in the America's Fulsome was the site that provided 0:31:43.960 --> 0:31:48.800 the the best, most secure and convincing evidence that indeed 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:51.840 people had been here since the Ice Age in the Americas. 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:54.640 And that evidence was, and this is for all you 0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:57.920 hunters out there, it was a stone spear point in 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:02.400 between the ribs of a now ext inked bison bison antiquis. 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:07.320 There was no question that that artifact was stabbed into 0:32:07.360 --> 0:32:10.240 that animal when that animal was alive. And so if 0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:12.000 that animal was alive at the end of the place 0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:15.360 to scene, that meant people were there too. In the 0:32:15.440 --> 0:32:19.959 years after Fulsome, lots more sites were found which confirmed 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:22.600 that in fact, people had been here since the Ice Age, 0:32:22.600 --> 0:32:26.520 that they've been hunting big game like giant bison, mammoths, 0:32:26.840 --> 0:32:30.240 maybe even some mastodons. But nobody ever went back to 0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:34.800 the Fulsome site, and the reason was that when they 0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:36.800 finished up there in the nineteen twenties, they said, well, 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:39.320 there's nothing left. So I went back there in the 0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:42.160 nineteen nineties and I excavated there, and we learned a 0:32:42.160 --> 0:32:45.120 whole bunch of things about Fulsome, and one of the 0:32:45.160 --> 0:32:47.720 things that was really the sort of key message that 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:50.200 came out of that was that these are highly mobile people. 0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:53.080 They are tracking great distances across the landscape, and we 0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:56.160 know that by looking at the stone that they picked 0:32:56.240 --> 0:33:02.160 up because they tended to I mean, when you're out hunting, 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:05.920 you want the best weaponry that you can get. You 0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:08.880 don't want something to fail when you're about to take 0:33:09.120 --> 0:33:13.360 a shot. Right, these folks were using really high quality stone. 0:33:13.880 --> 0:33:16.240 And the high quality stone that they were using is 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:19.200 very distinctive in terms of its color, in terms of 0:33:19.200 --> 0:33:21.800 the fossils that might be within the rock as well. 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:24.360 And so we knew from where they picked up the 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:27.320 stone how far they traveled across the landscape, and in 0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:31.080 the case of fulsome it was literally hundreds of kilometers. 0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:34.000 They had been down to quarries in the Panhandle of 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:37.800 Texas place called Alibate's National Monument, just outside of m 0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:41.520 Alibates National Monument, because it was a quarry, like that's 0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:45.160 the monuments. Absolutely, yeah, it is. It is based not 0:33:45.240 --> 0:33:48.400 coincidental like that, that's what they're celebrating with the monument. Absolutely, 0:33:48.440 --> 0:33:50.400 this is the home depot to beat all home depots 0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:51.760 at the end of the place to see and for 0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:54.080 that matter, for the next ten thousand years, right, people 0:33:54.080 --> 0:33:56.800 have been going to that place to collect stone, and 0:33:56.840 --> 0:33:58.720 so we knew they'd been there. We knew they'd been 0:33:58.800 --> 0:34:01.560 up in Sterling, Colorado. They've been making this big, long loop. 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:05.120 So what were they doing. They were probably we know 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:08.359 they were bison hunters, big time bison hunters. So we've 0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:11.719 got highly mobile bison hunters. They're there at the fulsome site. 0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:14.279 We were able to ascertain when they were there. We 0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:16.600 know they were there in the fall. And the reason 0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:18.359 we know they were there in the fall is that 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:21.440 you look at the eruption patterns of their molders, you 0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:23.600 look at the wear patterns on their teeth. You make 0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:27.240 certain assumptions about when bison cabs will pop out generally, 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:29.839 you know, mid April to mid May, and so by 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:32.839 looking at that, you can infer that they were there 0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:36.480 and say September or October. They didn't stay long. We 0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:39.480 looked for a camp. We looked all over for a camp. 0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:43.520 We found absolutely no evidence that they spent more than 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:45.520 the three or four days that they would have needed 0:34:45.560 --> 0:34:48.200 to butcher the animals. They killed thirty two of them, 0:34:48.480 --> 0:34:50.600 we know that too. And a little kind of trapped 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:53.040 them in a little box. Came exactly right, exactly right. 0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:55.160 They moved him into an arroyo and arroyal that they 0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:58.400 couldn't necessarily get out of. And I suspect the hunters 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:01.120 were positioned on the uplands right a above where all 0:35:01.120 --> 0:35:04.640 these animals were thrashing around and trying to escape, killed them, 0:35:04.760 --> 0:35:07.840 butchered them. And what they did, and we see this 0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:12.680 a lot in the archaeological record. They they were gourmet butcher's. 0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:15.680 They took all the good bits, right, so they got 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:18.880 rib racks, they got shoulder humped meat, they took some 0:35:18.960 --> 0:35:22.400 of the long bones, you're basic bitson drumsticks. They hauled 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:24.879 all that away. What did they leave behind? They left 0:35:24.880 --> 0:35:28.600 behind heads, butts and feet, because there's just not a 0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:30.880 lot of meat on heads, butts and feet. Now, you 0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:33.120 can do some things with brains, you know, tanning hides, 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:36.280 that kind of thing. But they weren't lingering, they weren't 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:40.799 sticking around. Folsome is it about seven thousand feet elevation, 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:45.479 and so my conclusion was, it's September. You're at seven 0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:48.960 thousand feet. Winter's coming. This is an area that gets 0:35:49.000 --> 0:35:50.719 a lot of snow. And I figured they're just gonna 0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:54.319 bug out. They're gonna go find someplace warmer. They're gonna 0:35:54.360 --> 0:35:57.160 go lower elevation, they're gonna get off into a more 0:35:57.200 --> 0:36:02.480 protected area, you know, case closed. So a few years 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.520 after that, Mark Steiger invites me up to work in 0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:07.799 Gunnison with him on a site that he has on 0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:11.719 top of a mountain. The mountain is at an elevation, 0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:16.919 it's a mesa in the Gunnison basin. So picture it's 0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:19.920 not quite a park like South Park or North Park 0:36:20.719 --> 0:36:22.960 or Middle Park in Colorado, but it's the same kind 0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:27.160 of principle where you've got high uh. You're basically on 0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:30.680 just the west side of the Continental Divide. From there 0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:34.200 you see all these fourteen thousand foot peaks. The lowest 0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:38.200 pass into that area is a ten thousand feet You 0:36:38.239 --> 0:36:40.920 get down onto the basin floor basin floors at about 0:36:40.920 --> 0:36:45.640 seventy feet. And just as a side note, the airport 0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:48.560 there in Gunnison, because you're at such high elevation as 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:51.520 a really extra long runway and so when we were 0:36:51.560 --> 0:36:54.680 working there, were literally working right above the airport and 0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:58.560 the air Force is sending all these gigantic uh you know, 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:01.279 those Galaxy planes, the ones that they put tanks into. 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:03.560 They come there and they do touch and goes to 0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:07.839 sort of practice landing at high elevation anyway, So he says, 0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:11.040 why don't you come up and work on this site? 0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:15.719 Joined the efforts, I said, sure. So this site was 0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:19.520 hiding in plain sight. You literally see it from town. 0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:21.480 You just look up and say, okay, well, there's a 0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:23.359 fulesome site right on top of that, of course if 0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:27.680 you knew that, right, But their dogs up there for 0:37:28.160 --> 0:37:31.920 well exactly, and and Mark discovered the site because they 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:34.960 were putting in some radio towers. Okay, so you've got 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:37.200 this mesa, this isolated mason in the midst of this 0:37:37.280 --> 0:37:42.720 basin thousand feet above the basin floor, and we're looking 0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:47.520 at a surface that is just flattest can be, and 0:37:48.560 --> 0:37:51.920 it's very rocky. It's a rock strewn surface. And we 0:37:52.080 --> 0:37:55.440 noticed Mark noticed first, uh, and I noticed when we 0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:57.200 started to work in a different area of the site 0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:01.759 that you know, there's some patterns to these rocks. And 0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:04.640 the more we excavated, the more the patterns became clear. 0:38:04.800 --> 0:38:08.840 What we were seeing were sort of large circular areas 0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:12.520 with very large rocks forming the circle, and then kind 0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:16.359 of a cleared area in the middle, and in our case, 0:38:16.560 --> 0:38:19.480 what appeared to be a doorway leading into one of 0:38:19.520 --> 0:38:24.080 these sort of circular structures. Um, it was facing east, 0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:27.320 and I think, okay, well you've got a circular structure, 0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:30.080 you've got a doorway, it's facing east. That's maybe a house. 0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:33.160 So over a number of years we were explained the 0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:37.520 east rising sun rising sun a lot. You know, you 0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:40.400 sort of look worldwide. There are certain kind of universal patterns, 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:44.160 not not truly universal, but it's common enough that it's 0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:47.399 clearly something meaningful that you know, you have the sun 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:51.520 coming in first thing in the morning. So, um, we're 0:38:51.560 --> 0:38:55.879 excavating these these uh, what looked to be structures, we're 0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:59.240 finding very distinctive patterns. So right outside the front door, 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:01.120 it's been clear of rock and there's a bunch of 0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:03.480 scrapers there. Okay, well, if you're going to stretch out 0:39:03.480 --> 0:39:05.600 of bison hide and clean it, you want to kind 0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:09.720 of smooth out the surface that you're working on. Um, 0:39:09.840 --> 0:39:11.799 we're you know, we're spending a lot of time up there, 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:14.880 and we're thinking about it, and we're thinking, why the 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:20.160 hell are you building stone walled structures which in fact 0:39:20.280 --> 0:39:24.719 we know had wooden superstructures. That is to say, put 0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:28.000 it in just plain English, they had aspen poles that 0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:32.880 had been anchored by these large rocks. We know they 0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:36.720 were aspen poles because one of these structures burned. And 0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:40.920 what had happened was the structure had been built, the 0:39:41.000 --> 0:39:44.600 aspen poles had been put up, mud had been packed 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:47.800 in and around all the poles to insulate the structure, 0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:50.120 and then when it burned, it basically turned the mud 0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:53.440 into ceramic, which preserved the bark of the imprint of 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:57.520 the aspen pole park. Right. So, okay, we're a thousand 0:39:57.520 --> 0:40:02.720 feet above the valley floor. There no water up there. Now, 0:40:03.040 --> 0:40:06.160 you know how much water ways? Right? Seven ponds of gallon? 0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:14.160 Right about eight? That's good though, maybe that was gas something. Um. 0:40:14.200 --> 0:40:17.040 If the nearest water is a thousand feet below you, 0:40:18.040 --> 0:40:20.600 and you know how much humans have to drink, right, 0:40:20.600 --> 0:40:23.520 we have water cooled engines. You don't want to spend 0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:26.279 a good part of your day going up and down 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:30.480 a thousand feet hauling water. Do you also want to 0:40:30.520 --> 0:40:37.320 build a stone structure with insulated walls in the summer 0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:42.759 on top of a mountain where there's no water. It 0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:44.560 didn't make a lot of sense, and it finally had 0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:47.560 dawned on us. Well, maybe this wasn't occupied in the 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:52.600 summer as we thought about it and thought about it 0:40:52.719 --> 0:40:57.400 some more, what we realized was this is likely a 0:40:57.520 --> 0:41:02.120 winter hamlet. There are are what appeared to be at 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.879 least four of these large structures on top of this. 0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:09.279 Can you can you tell me the circumference of one 0:41:09.320 --> 0:41:12.560 of these structures. It's about five meters to make it 0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:18.080 about fifteen feet in diameter UM and yeah, generally plus 0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:21.480 or minus that um And they're kind of in a 0:41:21.560 --> 0:41:26.319 big arc up on top of the hill there. And 0:41:26.440 --> 0:41:30.640 so what we also realized, so this is a closed 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:36.320 basin in the winter. And mind you, this is Gunnison, Colorado. Gunnison, 0:41:36.360 --> 0:41:39.120 Colorado was one of the coldest places in the lower 0:41:39.160 --> 0:41:43.720 forty eight of the United States. This was a site 0:41:43.760 --> 0:41:47.840 that was occupied in fulsome times. And the radio carbon 0:41:47.880 --> 0:41:50.360 dates we have come in around ten thousand, four hundred 0:41:50.440 --> 0:41:53.120 radio carbon years, which is about twelve four in in 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:56.200 real years. And so this was the end of the 0:41:56.239 --> 0:41:59.040 Palisto scene. So you can be sure it wasn't any 0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:04.680 warmer than than it is today. Right. So one of 0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:07.440 the things that we realized was that in a cold 0:42:07.600 --> 0:42:11.440 closed basin like that, cold air sinks. So if you're 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:14.240 a thousand feet above the valley floor. It's actually warmer 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:17.680 there then if you were down on the valley floor itself. 0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:19.640 And the other thing is is you're on top of 0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:23.000 this mesa. There's no mountains that are shading you, so 0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:27.520 you're getting maximum daylight during those winter months, and it's 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:30.879 going to be more comfortable up there. And if you're 0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:32.799 there in the winter, you don't have to worry about 0:42:32.840 --> 0:42:36.279 water because the snow is going to collect on the 0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:38.520 side of the houses, it's going to collect in the 0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:41.600 cornices on the edge of the mesa. This is a 0:42:41.640 --> 0:42:44.640 really good place to spend the winter, as it turns out, 0:42:44.920 --> 0:42:50.319 because not only do you have um, well, let me 0:42:50.360 --> 0:42:53.600 back up, you have from the top of that mesa, 0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:55.520 if you walk around the perimeter of it, it's a 0:42:55.560 --> 0:42:58.640 couple of miles just all around the edge of this mesa. 0:42:58.840 --> 0:43:00.359 I don't know if the viewers at home can see 0:43:00.360 --> 0:43:05.640 me circling my finger, just sort of circling. Wait, this 0:43:05.719 --> 0:43:11.280 isn't on TV. Um you see uh, you see forever, 0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:15.719 you see forever. So if you're a hunter and you're 0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:18.160 sitting up on the edge of this mesa and the 0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:21.480 valley floor is dusted with snow, if there's a herd 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:23.879 of bison down there, you're gonna see him, and you've 0:43:23.880 --> 0:43:26.439 got time to figure out. Okay, how do we get down, 0:43:27.120 --> 0:43:30.399 how do we circle? What's the what's the hunt strategy here? 0:43:30.560 --> 0:43:33.440 How are we going to do this? And think about this. 0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:37.440 If you're in a closed basin and the lowest elevation 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:41.160 mountain pass out of that basin, is it ten tho feet? Yeah? 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:44.080 But what what's the outlet? What? What is it? Is 0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:48.320 a canyon like a gorge the Gunnison River out of 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:53.400 the west. Yeah, but that gorge is incredibly narrow and 0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:59.200 incredibly deep, and it's a very treacherous outlet. And in fact, 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:01.240 one of the things that's really distinctive about the ecology. 0:44:01.280 --> 0:44:04.440 We were talking about the ecology of different regions earlier, Right, 0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:08.879 the Gunnison Basin has a number of endemic species, which 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:12.000 basically means these are animals and plants that have been 0:44:12.040 --> 0:44:15.319 isolated for thousands and thousands of years and hence have 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:19.239 developed new species. Right. So that tells you that it's 0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:21.839 not easy getting in and out of that basin over 0:44:21.840 --> 0:44:25.280 the long geological time. But if you're a hunter gatherer 0:44:25.320 --> 0:44:27.879 and you're in this basin and it's in the dead 0:44:27.880 --> 0:44:30.880 of winter, they're getting just tons of snow up on 0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:33.880 these passes. You're essentially stuck there. But here's the good news. 0:44:34.400 --> 0:44:38.200 The animals are stuck there too, right. So if you've 0:44:38.239 --> 0:44:41.640 got elk and bison that are spending the summer up 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:44.400 at twelve or thirteen thousand feet, you know they can 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:47.320 do okay in snow, but you know they're going to 0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:50.239 come down, and so are all the other animals. And 0:44:50.280 --> 0:44:54.520 so you've basically got a walking refrigerator on the valley 0:44:54.560 --> 0:44:58.040 floor below you that you can see from miles away. 0:44:58.160 --> 0:45:02.560 You've got ample stone, you've water. Why not just park 0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:05.160 yourself here at eight thousand feet in the rockies. So 0:45:05.280 --> 0:45:08.520 my thinking, you know, coming trying to freeze your butt. 0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:11.440 Well yeah, but um, these folks knew what they were 0:45:11.440 --> 0:45:14.560 in for, because they clearly this wasn't a case where 0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:16.600 they kind of came in the summer they were hunting 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:20.480 and oh the first snowfall, we're stuck here. They knew 0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:23.000 exactly what they were doing. They found one of the 0:45:23.040 --> 0:45:26.120 most ideal spots in that entire basin to set up 0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:29.920 their winter camp and stayed there through the winter. Have 0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:34.759 you guys found any funnel remains at all. There's the 0:45:35.480 --> 0:45:38.160 you know, there's a beautiful theory killed by a horrible fact. 0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:42.080 The fact is is that we we haven't found anything 0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:45.799 to empirically demonstrate. And this is the frustrating part of 0:45:45.800 --> 0:45:49.000 that whole project to found to find anything that would 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:52.239 clearly and securely confirmed that this was a winter occupation. 0:45:52.760 --> 0:45:56.880 It's just not there. We found thirty four thousand bones, 0:45:56.960 --> 0:46:03.120 scraps of which are no bigger than your thumbnail. Because 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:06.520 this is a very cold environment. It's a very harsh environment. 0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:10.000 You've got a lot of freeze, thraw and cracking, and 0:46:10.800 --> 0:46:14.120 you know, bone just doesn't preserve. And that's the problem 0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:18.400 as an interesting shed hunting observation in areas like that 0:46:18.520 --> 0:46:25.040 high elevation, serious exposure, find a lot of cracked antler yep, 0:46:25.680 --> 0:46:30.440 goes quick. Yeah, like the the that freeze thaw and 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:33.560 and how hot the sun gets on those south facing slopes. 0:46:33.840 --> 0:46:47.520 The brown antlier once it falls off cracks. What critters 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:52.120 besides elk and bison or you finding bones of up there, Well, 0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:55.600 mostly it's just elk and bison because the larger mammals, 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:58.960 you know, you're gonna get more option or opportunity or 0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:02.640 likelihood of getting their bones preserved. We the largest chunk 0:47:02.719 --> 0:47:07.160 that we got was a distal tibia of a bison. Uh. 0:47:07.160 --> 0:47:09.760 And it was just a chunk of the distal tibia, 0:47:09.880 --> 0:47:13.000 so you know, the lower leg bone larger of the two. Uh. 0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:15.839 And that was you know, that piece was maybe just 0:47:15.920 --> 0:47:20.080 a couple of inches uh in length. So we did 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:24.120 find some fetal bone, which we thought, okay, so maybe 0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.879 we had they killed an arch or whatever exactly. Um, 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:32.719 but when we radiocarbon dated it, it wasn't fulsome in age. Uh. 0:47:33.719 --> 0:47:36.000 Have you been able to radio carbon date any of 0:47:36.000 --> 0:47:38.360 the bone? Oh? Yeah, no, the bison bone that was 0:47:38.440 --> 0:47:41.239 large enough. Yeah. Absolutely. Now we have we have really 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:44.799 good solid radio carbon ages on that site. Uh. And 0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:47.480 as I said, it's about twelve four and it's there's 0:47:47.480 --> 0:47:49.320 fulsome points all over the place. We have over a 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:52.359 hundred of them. Any nice ones? Oh yeah, are they 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:56.400 in your book? Um? Well, yeah, like pictures of them. 0:47:56.520 --> 0:47:59.200 My kid just got a shark book or like if 0:47:59.200 --> 0:48:02.279 they're like reading want that school. He got a book 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:07.120 about sharks that came with two shark teeth. Well in 0:48:07.160 --> 0:48:10.959 a little plastic container setting foam built into the cover 0:48:11.040 --> 0:48:13.600 of the book. Now, if you sold that book with 0:48:13.719 --> 0:48:17.400 the point the falsome point, well I don't. Yeah, I know, 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:19.120 but I don't have a hundred books to sell and 0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:22.360 i'd have to charge for each. I feel like, you 0:48:22.480 --> 0:48:30.640 get it, your reputation destroyed. Well, I do have co authors, 0:48:30.680 --> 0:48:33.359 so I just point to them. So why why did 0:48:33.360 --> 0:48:36.680 you guys think of that? Um? So, yeah, no, it's uh, 0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:39.239 but this getting back to the fulsome story, right. I 0:48:39.280 --> 0:48:42.080 was convinced. I was convinced that these guys, I want 0:48:42.080 --> 0:48:44.280 to get back to the points for a minute. Okay, 0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:49.439 are the points um in the houses, like out front 0:48:49.440 --> 0:48:52.160 of the doors, just kind of everywhere? Well, one of 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:54.839 the houses has a lot of them, and I think 0:48:54.880 --> 0:48:56.799 that that's you know, we had a bunch of folks 0:48:56.920 --> 0:48:58.719 kind of sitting around, this is winner. What are you 0:48:58.719 --> 0:49:01.200 gonna do. You're gonna gear up, You're gonna get ready 0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:04.120 for the hunt. And so they were making a lot 0:49:04.120 --> 0:49:06.480 of points. And the really interesting thing that we found 0:49:06.520 --> 0:49:08.320 were one of the really interesting things that we found 0:49:08.480 --> 0:49:11.160 was a point that had been made at the site. 0:49:11.760 --> 0:49:13.640 And we know it was made at the site because 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:15.920 we found the channel flake. The channel flake is the 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:19.279 flake that is from the flute that you remove from 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.319 the face of a falsome point, which makes you a 0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:27.120 hell of a flint napper. Right, that's still of the 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:30.200 time it's going to fail. So if you get that 0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:34.560 pinnacle moment and yeah they break, well, you know, you 0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:37.680 invest forty five minutes and something, and then what's the 0:49:37.719 --> 0:49:39.600 next to last thing that you do. You flute it 0:49:39.800 --> 0:49:44.440 where you have a failure risk. What were they thinking? Anyway? 0:49:44.520 --> 0:49:48.680 So we find um a point, and then find a 0:49:48.760 --> 0:49:53.719 point base from a clearly at a point that it's 0:49:53.719 --> 0:49:56.040 snapped in half and had been brought back to the site. 0:49:56.760 --> 0:50:02.320 It refit to that channel flake, which meant that they Okay, 0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:04.600 you make a point, you leave a certain amount of 0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:07.360 debris behind, including channel flakes. You attach that point to 0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:11.040 a spear, You go down down slope down a thousand feet, 0:50:11.080 --> 0:50:13.640 you go out onto the basin floor, you kill an animal, 0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:17.919 You bring back your busted spear, you unwrap it from 0:50:18.080 --> 0:50:21.120 its half, the thing that mounts it to the spear, 0:50:21.440 --> 0:50:23.239 and you just you know, sort of discard the base 0:50:23.280 --> 0:50:26.279 of the point right there, and then ten thousand radio 0:50:26.320 --> 0:50:29.279 carbon years later we come along and we refit that 0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:32.080 channel flake to the point. There's the story. The story 0:50:32.160 --> 0:50:34.080 is is that they made it here, used it on 0:50:34.120 --> 0:50:37.600 the floor, brought it back right. So you know, they 0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:40.840 were basically just hanging around the basic the tip was 0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:43.920 probably sticking in an animal somewhere and got lost forever. 0:50:44.800 --> 0:50:46.520 You know what I would do if I was an anthropologists, 0:50:46.880 --> 0:50:49.640 I would find I'd go down to the folsome site 0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:55.120 m hm, and I'd find some channel flake that matches 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:58.320 one at your news site, and I would tell everybody 0:50:58.320 --> 0:51:00.640 how that was those guys and that's where they went. 0:51:00.680 --> 0:51:02.400 You know what. I was so tempted. I was so 0:51:02.520 --> 0:51:05.880 tempted to connect the two dots um, except they're um, 0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:08.520 they're different ages. How far a part of it? Um? 0:51:08.640 --> 0:51:11.759 Less than a century? But less than a century? Yeah, 0:51:12.680 --> 0:51:15.040 they might very well have known people. Well, you know 0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:18.480 that's entirely possible, because you know, there were a few 0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:21.000 enough of those folks out there on the landscape. How many, 0:51:21.040 --> 0:51:22.960 like how few do you think? I know you can't say, 0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:26.560 but like, let's give me a plausible idea of how few, 0:51:26.640 --> 0:51:30.520 Like if you were in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana 0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:33.959 and there's only one source of stone. Just to clear 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:37.160 this up, there's only one source of stone at the 0:51:37.480 --> 0:51:44.040 Gunnison site. Um, okay, so no outside that, that's there's 0:51:44.080 --> 0:51:46.040 an interesting story. And then I'm gonna try and ignore 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:49.000 Steve's question because I don't know the answer, so help 0:51:49.040 --> 0:51:50.799 me not come back. But there has to be there 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:53.880 has to be a framework. I'll give you, give me 0:51:53.920 --> 0:51:56.359 the framework to answer Steve's question, and then I'll get 0:51:56.400 --> 0:52:02.600 back because there's stone moving around that could be independent 0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:09.320 of the people because of overlapping groups. And absolutely here's 0:52:09.320 --> 0:52:11.640 your question. Here's the answer to your question. We actually 0:52:11.680 --> 0:52:14.600 know a lot more about population than we did the 0:52:14.680 --> 0:52:16.799 last time I talked to you. And the reason is 0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:20.360 is that UH continue to work on ancient DNA and 0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:24.239 genetics is giving us a much better picture of population 0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:26.080 history and demography. And one of the things that's come 0:52:26.080 --> 0:52:28.520 out in just the last couple of years is that 0:52:29.239 --> 0:52:34.280 populations as soon as they got into the America's boomed 0:52:35.360 --> 0:52:38.320 a sixtyfold increase over about a three thousand year period. 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:40.520 Now that doesn't give you absolute numbers. You know, how 0:52:40.520 --> 0:52:42.360 many did they start with? Did they start with a hundred, 0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:44.200 did they start with a thousand? We have no idea. 0:52:44.600 --> 0:52:46.879 What we do know is that the rate of population 0:52:47.000 --> 0:52:51.080 increase was spectacularly high. This might have been sort of 0:52:51.080 --> 0:52:54.200 one of the biggest population booms ever in human prehistory, 0:52:54.200 --> 0:52:57.120 which basically means that when people got here, this was 0:52:57.320 --> 0:53:00.279 a rich environment in which they were highly suc It 0:53:00.360 --> 0:53:02.880 was the honeyhole. There you go. You know, you you 0:53:03.280 --> 0:53:06.240 crossed all of your you're, you're It's like you're getting 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:12.000 an opportunity to come in and, um pick over things 0:53:12.040 --> 0:53:14.040 that have never been picked over. Well, not only it 0:53:14.160 --> 0:53:17.080 was like oysters, Like here's an oyster bed, it's never 0:53:17.160 --> 0:53:19.680 been picked over. Well, let's let's talk about large mammals. 0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:23.680 They've never seen a two legged predator. Now, they're not stupid, 0:53:24.040 --> 0:53:26.160 they're going to pretty quickly figure it out that you're 0:53:26.160 --> 0:53:29.879 bad news. Okay, But those first couple of times when 0:53:29.880 --> 0:53:31.319 you rock ride up to him and whack them on 0:53:31.320 --> 0:53:34.640 the head. You know, this is like those stories. I mean, 0:53:34.880 --> 0:53:38.799 we have examples of this because in more we have 0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:43.800 like very um elaborate descriptions of people arriving on remote 0:53:43.800 --> 0:53:48.040 islands they had never been inhabited, and they literally walk around, 0:53:49.320 --> 0:53:52.839 um oftentimes to the point where it's all gone pretty soon, 0:53:53.520 --> 0:53:57.759 walk around clubbing everything to death. Well your oyster example too, right, 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:01.080 there's descriptions of like and re oyster is the size 0:54:01.080 --> 0:54:05.160 of your hand like an outstretched you know, absolutely yeah, 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:07.879 and the chest peak Bay. There's historical studies that show 0:54:07.960 --> 0:54:12.520 there's this massive shrinkage of oysters because of overharvesting over 0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:16.800 the years. But to your question, cal about the stone, Um, 0:54:16.920 --> 0:54:20.480 they did in fact bring in outside stone to the 0:54:20.520 --> 0:54:22.919 gun of Some site. Yeah. So presumably when they first 0:54:22.920 --> 0:54:26.040 showed up they had material that they'd collected elsewhere. But 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:28.560 then once you're sort of in that basin, over the 0:54:28.560 --> 0:54:30.839 course of the winter, your stone is gonna get used up. 0:54:31.600 --> 0:54:36.040 But fortunately they had access to really high quality court site. 0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:39.200 Now I should explain court site is not you know, 0:54:39.239 --> 0:54:43.479 sort of your favored fulsome stone making or tool making 0:54:43.520 --> 0:54:49.040 materials Church cal Sdney Jaspers, and you know, these folks 0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:51.440 went for the good stuff. Uh. And they certainly did 0:54:51.440 --> 0:54:54.120 at the Fulsome site. But here in Gunnison they were 0:54:54.120 --> 0:54:56.960 making points out of court site, um, which was high 0:54:57.040 --> 0:54:59.440 quality court site, and so they were very adept at it. 0:54:59.640 --> 0:55:03.160 But they had an unlimited supply. So again this gets too. 0:55:03.440 --> 0:55:06.120 If you're gonna hunker down for a long period of time, 0:55:06.520 --> 0:55:09.239 you want food, you want water, you want stone. They 0:55:09.280 --> 0:55:11.680 had all three, and it just so happens that they're 0:55:11.680 --> 0:55:14.560 on top of this mountain in the Rockies where it's 0:55:14.560 --> 0:55:16.759 one of the coldest places in North America now and 0:55:16.760 --> 0:55:19.160 probably was one of the coldest places in North America then. 0:55:19.520 --> 0:55:22.759 But they did just fine. Do you might walking through 0:55:22.800 --> 0:55:26.000 a uh, this is on Cow's stone question, do you 0:55:26.080 --> 0:55:30.799 might walking through a plausible explanation of how in what 0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:35.920 form stone was transported? Because I've seen these references to 0:55:36.280 --> 0:55:41.080 um cores and by faces and things. That's a good Yeah, 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:44.760 I like that, that's good. Yeah. So uh, euro pedestrian 0:55:44.840 --> 0:55:47.600 hunter gather you don't really have a lot of beasts 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:50.280 of burden. Um, the best you've got is a dog, 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:52.400 and you can load a bunch of stuff on dogs. 0:55:52.440 --> 0:55:55.200 You could load just tons of stuff on Karn's Newfoundland 0:55:55.400 --> 0:56:00.440 out there, but these dogs were probably not that large. Um. 0:56:00.480 --> 0:56:02.480 Just in case you big needs. This is a beautiful 0:56:02.480 --> 0:56:05.279 seg by the way, beautiful segue. Well I knew where 0:56:05.320 --> 0:56:16.920 we were going. I didn't need Korean's script. David. So, Um, 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:19.120 you're a hunter gatherer, right, you go to the you 0:56:19.160 --> 0:56:21.320 go to these outcrops and there's just a big, massive 0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:23.759 blocks of stuff you're not going to slip one of 0:56:23.760 --> 0:56:28.399 those things across the landscape a because well you held 0:56:28.400 --> 0:56:30.560 your arms out. But an outcrop is I mean it 0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:32.439 could be like a car sized out crop. Oh yeah, 0:56:32.560 --> 0:56:34.839 oh yeah, I have good stone. I've been to I've 0:56:34.840 --> 0:56:37.920 been to Alibates and actually on the other side of 0:56:37.920 --> 0:56:39.960 the river from the National Monument on on a private 0:56:40.040 --> 0:56:42.680 ranch where I literally saw a block of Alibates the 0:56:42.680 --> 0:56:46.359 size of the pickup truck just peer like could take 0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:49.319 the whole thing and make it. You can make tens 0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:51.359 of thousands and then sell them with that book that 0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:55.560 you know you want to publish. Yeah. Um, so what 0:56:55.600 --> 0:56:58.160 you're gonna do and and not just the weight and 0:56:58.200 --> 0:57:00.719 the size, you also want to get the quality. So 0:57:00.760 --> 0:57:02.520 you're gonna spend a little bit of time at the outcrop, 0:57:02.520 --> 0:57:04.640 You're gonna spend a little bit of time at the quarry, 0:57:04.680 --> 0:57:09.000 and you're gonna fashion. Um, you're gonna reduce the stone 0:57:09.080 --> 0:57:13.360 into manageable packages for carrying. And oftentimes what you're producing 0:57:13.840 --> 0:57:18.480 is kind of a large platter like thing which um 0:57:18.680 --> 0:57:21.920 is easily transported. You put it in a bag, a 0:57:22.040 --> 0:57:26.640 leather bag or whatever. And we know this because oftentimes 0:57:26.960 --> 0:57:31.120 if we occasionally find these things. Oftentimes we'll see that 0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:34.200 the flake scars have been rubbed and they're polished, and 0:57:34.240 --> 0:57:36.240 it's because they were in a bag with something else 0:57:37.120 --> 0:57:41.040 a braiding them. In essence, you can take that large 0:57:41.080 --> 0:57:43.000 platter of stone and you can turn it into anything 0:57:43.000 --> 0:57:46.760 you want, right, So it's an easily transportable form. It's 0:57:46.800 --> 0:57:51.360 reduced the weight. You know, it's good stone, and it 0:57:51.440 --> 0:57:54.840 can be morphed into whatever particular tool that you need. 0:57:54.920 --> 0:57:57.040 So you don't necessarily want to go to the quarry 0:57:57.080 --> 0:58:00.640 and make really highly specific Okay, a gonna need three 0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:02.960 end scrapers, so I'm gonna make them now, I'm gonna 0:58:02.960 --> 0:58:07.000 need for that's all you're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So 0:58:07.040 --> 0:58:08.800 why not just take something that you can turn in 0:58:08.800 --> 0:58:11.960 into a number of other different things. And that's probably 0:58:11.960 --> 0:58:14.880 how they were transporting stuff. And that's called a core. Yeah. 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:18.440 So the core is basically the stone from which you 0:58:18.520 --> 0:58:21.120 are making other tools. And you guys will find cores 0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:25.200 now and then oh yeah um and in fact um, 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:29.400 in the case of Mountaineer, we do find court site cores. 0:58:30.120 --> 0:58:33.840 What we don't find is cortex, and and don't sort 0:58:33.880 --> 0:58:36.439 of associate core with cortex. Cortex is simply the outer 0:58:36.600 --> 0:58:40.880 rind of a block of stone, so when it's been weathered, Um, 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:45.160 it'll get that. Yeah, okay, well there's a word for 0:58:45.160 --> 0:58:47.160 that though, right. Cortex is the word c O R 0:58:47.200 --> 0:58:50.360 T E X another like I want to get that 0:58:50.440 --> 0:58:54.880 kind of man, there's a it'll come to you. It'll 0:58:54.880 --> 0:58:57.880 come to you. Um, we don't find any cortex, which 0:58:57.920 --> 0:58:59.800 means that they you know, they went to the source, 0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:03.040 they got a cobble, They busted open the cobble. They 0:59:03.040 --> 0:59:05.040 could see the good stuff inside, so they removed all 0:59:05.080 --> 0:59:07.000 the junk and then they just carried it back to 0:59:07.040 --> 0:59:09.960 the site and then they used that to make blades 0:59:10.080 --> 0:59:14.560 or scrapers or whatever. And you're not finding the outer 0:59:14.760 --> 0:59:18.160 nasty correct Correctly, they were coming. Yeah, they were coming 0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:20.120 into that place with with stuff that was ready to 0:59:20.440 --> 0:59:22.360 ready to work with. Again, this gets back to your 0:59:22.440 --> 0:59:25.000 thousand feet above the valley floor. The stone sources are 0:59:25.040 --> 0:59:28.480 on the valley floor. Why carry extra weight? I mean, 0:59:28.520 --> 0:59:30.880 I can tell you when we were working there, we 0:59:30.880 --> 0:59:34.040 would occasionally hike up to the top or run down 0:59:34.120 --> 0:59:36.760 from the top to the bottom just to see. That 0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:39.440 was back when my knees worked and I could go 0:59:39.720 --> 0:59:42.560 from you know, hiking to the top would take you know, 0:59:42.600 --> 0:59:46.040 you're at eight hundred eight thousand feet or so, it 0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:48.760 would take about half an hour, uh to sort of 0:59:48.800 --> 0:59:52.240 make your way up the mountain. I could get down 0:59:52.240 --> 0:59:56.360 in fifteen minutes running, so, uh, you can, you can 0:59:56.400 --> 0:59:58.400 make that trip pretty quickly. Now, of course, if there's 0:59:58.400 --> 1:00:00.520 snow on the ground, it's going to be longer and 1:00:00.520 --> 1:00:02.720 everything like that. But they probably had snowshoes, they probably 1:00:02.720 --> 1:00:04.480 had something that they could get around in the snow. 1:00:05.760 --> 1:00:09.480 But we also know that in another area of that 1:00:09.640 --> 1:00:12.760 Mesa top there was a summer occupation, or what we 1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:15.720 interpret as a summer occupation. It's very close to the 1:00:15.840 --> 1:00:20.560 edge of the Mesa and we have um a bunch 1:00:20.600 --> 1:00:26.640 of um busted up, used up projectile points. I think 1:00:26.680 --> 1:00:29.840 we had hunters sitting on the edge, watching the valley 1:00:29.920 --> 1:00:33.880 floor below and retooling their weaponry and just you know, 1:00:33.960 --> 1:00:36.480 kind of watching to see who's walking by. You know, 1:00:36.520 --> 1:00:40.960 there's cows, you know, they the runway for the Gunnison 1:00:41.080 --> 1:00:43.800 Crest Debut Airport is right below you, but just off 1:00:43.840 --> 1:00:46.440 to the side there, Uh, somebody's got a bunch of 1:00:46.440 --> 1:00:48.680 cows on the field, and so you know, I could 1:00:48.720 --> 1:00:52.439 sit up there from a thousand feet away and yeah, sure, 1:00:52.480 --> 1:00:54.600 I can count the number of animals that are down 1:00:54.600 --> 1:00:57.680 there on the ground. It was a perfect vantage point 1:00:57.800 --> 1:00:59.760 and it turns out a great place to spend the 1:00:59.760 --> 1:01:03.640 wind or because you had everything you needed. Did you 1:01:03.640 --> 1:01:07.800 guys find any kind of thing that represents UM weapon 1:01:07.880 --> 1:01:14.440 types besides stone? Any kind of uh other would besides 1:01:14.520 --> 1:01:18.680 the remnants of the tent poles? No? No, And it's 1:01:18.720 --> 1:01:21.080 too harsh. It's just too harsh. And the thing is, 1:01:21.480 --> 1:01:26.320 where you do have sites UM in in northern Mexico, 1:01:26.360 --> 1:01:29.480 they're they're dry where the climate has been very, very 1:01:29.520 --> 1:01:32.320 dry for a long time, you've got good preservation. And 1:01:32.400 --> 1:01:34.440 when you have sites like that, and there was a 1:01:34.480 --> 1:01:37.160 study done in one of these sites, there's something like 1:01:37.320 --> 1:01:39.920 for every single item made out of stone, there's twenty 1:01:39.960 --> 1:01:42.640 different things made out of wood or bone. And that's 1:01:42.680 --> 1:01:44.640 just giving you the ratio of how much you're not 1:01:44.760 --> 1:01:47.800 seeing in these sites because the only thing that's preserving 1:01:47.880 --> 1:01:51.280 is stone and the occasional bits of bone. What's what's 1:01:51.320 --> 1:01:55.000 like the most interesting source material you've come across that 1:01:55.200 --> 1:01:58.800 they grabbed some sort of rock and made tools out 1:01:58.840 --> 1:02:00.280 of it, Like when I look at it back light, 1:02:00.600 --> 1:02:02.320 I found a few of I'm like, man, that would 1:02:02.320 --> 1:02:08.959 be perfect. It's um like an extinct squid species leaves 1:02:09.040 --> 1:02:13.800 behind what looks like a female right. Yeah, we're like 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:17.040 a like a piece of petrified would Um. Yeah, so 1:02:17.160 --> 1:02:19.520 they have there's a there's a material up there that 1:02:19.560 --> 1:02:22.240 we haven't quite figured out. It's called opal c t. 1:02:22.680 --> 1:02:27.600 It's an opal light and it occurs in little tiny bits. 1:02:27.680 --> 1:02:31.080 Presumably it occurred in much larger blocks, and it's in 1:02:31.160 --> 1:02:35.600 and around these houses. It has no obvious functional purpose 1:02:35.920 --> 1:02:39.520 that we've been able to discern. Um. We don't know 1:02:39.560 --> 1:02:42.240 where it comes from. It's not native to the top 1:02:42.280 --> 1:02:47.880 of that mesa, but clearly somebody hauled it up on 1:02:48.000 --> 1:02:50.200 top of there, and we have no idea why or 1:02:50.240 --> 1:02:52.760 what its purpose was. You know, at first I thought 1:02:52.800 --> 1:02:55.200 it was maybe some sort of pigment type thing, but 1:02:55.360 --> 1:02:58.880 that's not necessarily the case. So I don't know. It's 1:02:58.880 --> 1:03:01.640 a it's a puzzle to us. Um. We know it's there, 1:03:01.640 --> 1:03:06.560 but we don't know why. In your dealings with anthropology 1:03:06.640 --> 1:03:09.960 and antiquities in the American Southwest, do you ever crossed 1:03:09.960 --> 1:03:12.960 paths with forest fend We did a whole podcast on 1:03:13.040 --> 1:03:16.720 him once there's some interest in this room about him. Yeah, 1:03:16.760 --> 1:03:20.160 I know. Forest, of of course, just recently passed away. 1:03:20.600 --> 1:03:25.800 Um yeah, um Forest. Forest was indeed a character, a 1:03:25.920 --> 1:03:31.440 very interesting character, and um was very supportive of archaeology, 1:03:31.480 --> 1:03:42.080 but also arguably um across some lines if you will. Uh. Yeah, yeah, 1:03:42.120 --> 1:03:45.920 Forest basically I think purchased a pueblo and then you know, 1:03:46.080 --> 1:03:51.720 had it excavated. Um, but he had um professional archaeologists 1:03:51.720 --> 1:03:53.880 excavating it. So it's it's kind of a it's there's 1:03:53.920 --> 1:03:57.040 a lot of ambiguity around Forest. I liked Forest. He 1:03:57.160 --> 1:04:01.920 was a very interesting character. UM. So yeah, that's that's 1:04:01.920 --> 1:04:06.560 a great question, like where like how do you in 1:04:06.560 --> 1:04:12.560 in current times like decide on when to excavate something 1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:14.960 like what what are the factors now? Because it used 1:04:15.000 --> 1:04:17.320 to be like, oh, here's a site, We're gonna dig 1:04:17.360 --> 1:04:20.000 it up and find out everything there is to know. 1:04:20.440 --> 1:04:23.640 But now there's a mindset of like, great, we know 1:04:23.760 --> 1:04:28.240 there's a site here, Um, we know of other sites 1:04:28.320 --> 1:04:30.880 in the general area. We can draw a lot of conclusions. 1:04:31.480 --> 1:04:34.560 The most preserved we can make this site is to 1:04:34.640 --> 1:04:38.480 not dig it up. Well, that's right, and the reality is, 1:04:38.560 --> 1:04:40.720 of course is that nobody's making ten thousand year old 1:04:40.720 --> 1:04:45.920 sits anymore. Right, they're gone their finite Um, are there 1:04:45.920 --> 1:04:48.720 more out there? Yeah? Probably? Uh do we need to 1:04:48.760 --> 1:04:52.400 continue to dig them? Well, it really all depends if 1:04:52.440 --> 1:04:56.760 you know about that time period, you know about that region. 1:04:57.480 --> 1:05:01.320 What's the point of digging yet an other fulsome site, 1:05:01.360 --> 1:05:04.080 for example, because you might find a body and there's 1:05:04.120 --> 1:05:06.680 not many bodies. Well, that gets us into a very 1:05:06.680 --> 1:05:13.320 different set of ethical questions, right Na, Yeah, sorry, Steve Um, Look, 1:05:13.360 --> 1:05:15.520 I'm well, okay, let's we'll get to that in a sect. Well, 1:05:15.560 --> 1:05:19.280 it's just it's a great question. Yeah right, No, so um, 1:05:19.320 --> 1:05:22.360 there are sites that I have excavated that I haven't 1:05:22.400 --> 1:05:26.880 fully excavated save a chunk, save a chunk. Well, Fulsome 1:05:26.960 --> 1:05:29.960 is the best example. Right. There's a certain point when 1:05:29.960 --> 1:05:33.240 you're doing excavation and analysis that you sort of hit 1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:36.360 the point of redundancy. You've learned a whole bunch, but 1:05:36.480 --> 1:05:40.000 the further and more you dig, you're not really learning 1:05:40.040 --> 1:05:43.280 that much more. At that point you should stop because 1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:45.240 at that point, all you're doing is adding to the 1:05:45.280 --> 1:05:47.959 collection that you don't really need because it's not telling 1:05:48.000 --> 1:05:51.120 you anything new. On the other hand, somebody could come 1:05:51.120 --> 1:05:54.400 along to fulsome seventy years after me, as I came 1:05:54.440 --> 1:05:57.720 along seventy years after the first excavation, and I learned 1:05:57.720 --> 1:06:00.360 a hell of a lot that they didn't learn because well, 1:06:00.360 --> 1:06:04.360 they were just paleontologists hauling bison bones out of the ground. Right, 1:06:04.840 --> 1:06:07.120 So if I leave a chunk of that there and 1:06:07.240 --> 1:06:10.479 I did, somebody coming along seventy years later can figure 1:06:10.480 --> 1:06:13.040 out all the things that I did wrong because the 1:06:13.840 --> 1:06:17.080 questions and they might have better, they might different questions, 1:06:17.120 --> 1:06:20.680 just as I did after the first one. Um Neanderthal 1:06:20.760 --> 1:06:23.360 A Right, it's like we can't like it seems like 1:06:23.480 --> 1:06:27.400 it's monthly at this point, there's some new thing about Neandertal. 1:06:27.640 --> 1:06:30.560 It's all. It's all the genetics, it's all the ancient DNA. 1:06:31.040 --> 1:06:36.640 But to Steve's question about a body, so um, we've 1:06:36.760 --> 1:06:40.760 learned a tremendous amount about human population history of the 1:06:40.760 --> 1:06:44.920 America's in literally just the last seven years, because it 1:06:45.040 --> 1:06:49.680 was just seven years ago that ESK. Wheeler Slives group 1:06:49.840 --> 1:06:53.680 of which I'm a part of, UH provided the first 1:06:53.800 --> 1:06:57.160 sequence of a Clovis individual. So we have a genome 1:06:57.360 --> 1:07:03.880 of a Clovis person from the antics in that oh yeah, 1:07:03.880 --> 1:07:06.919 Oh absolutely, because that boy's name is zik One, right, yeah, 1:07:07.000 --> 1:07:09.280 it's it's near will Sall, how far as will saw 1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:14.120 from here far? So in that seven years, we've sequenced 1:07:14.120 --> 1:07:18.280 and other labs have as well a number of ancient genomes. 1:07:18.880 --> 1:07:21.560 And these are things that I mean, look, there's a 1:07:21.560 --> 1:07:23.720 lot I can learn as an archaeologist. I can learn 1:07:23.760 --> 1:07:26.040 about what people hunted. I can learn about how far 1:07:26.080 --> 1:07:28.600 they traveled across the landscape. I can learn about how 1:07:28.600 --> 1:07:31.720 they responded to different environments, how they were impacted by 1:07:31.760 --> 1:07:35.360 different environments, what their impacts were on different environments. The 1:07:35.400 --> 1:07:38.480 one thing I can't do as an archaeologist is population history. 1:07:38.640 --> 1:07:40.800 If you've got an artifact over you know, in this 1:07:40.920 --> 1:07:42.720 site over here, and I've got an artifact in that 1:07:42.760 --> 1:07:45.160 side over here, and they kind of look alike, we 1:07:45.240 --> 1:07:47.160 might want to say, oh, well, they're part of the 1:07:47.200 --> 1:07:50.680 same population, But we would have no idea, right because 1:07:50.840 --> 1:07:53.439 artifacts can look alike for a variety of reasons, not 1:07:53.600 --> 1:07:57.840 necessarily just because they're historically related. If you've got a 1:07:57.880 --> 1:08:00.400 genome and I've got a genome, I can tell you 1:08:00.440 --> 1:08:04.000 precisely how closely they're related. I can look at I 1:08:04.040 --> 1:08:06.160 can look at patterns of admixture. You know, we know 1:08:06.160 --> 1:08:08.520 when different groups got together because we see gene flow, 1:08:09.000 --> 1:08:11.680 just as all of us have a bit of neandertal 1:08:11.760 --> 1:08:14.720 DNA and US, right, so we know there was well 1:08:14.920 --> 1:08:19.960 sex between early modern humans and neandertals. So yeah, there's 1:08:20.000 --> 1:08:25.559 a tremendous amount to be learned from ancient skeletons. The 1:08:25.600 --> 1:08:29.800 flip side is there's some ethical issues and concerns when 1:08:29.840 --> 1:08:34.240 you're doing genetic research with populations, regardless of you know, 1:08:34.280 --> 1:08:37.640 sort of where they are and who they are. Um. 1:08:37.680 --> 1:08:40.600 You know, there's a certain amount of protocols that you know, 1:08:40.720 --> 1:08:43.360 one goes through to get permission to do genetic research 1:08:43.400 --> 1:08:45.679 because you can learn a lot, not all of it good, 1:08:45.880 --> 1:08:49.560 about a population. It's a particularly challenging issue here in 1:08:49.600 --> 1:08:54.200 the Americas because the relationship between the indigenous Native American 1:08:54.479 --> 1:08:58.439 communities and the scientific communities have not always been good 1:08:58.800 --> 1:09:02.560 because you know, on the scientific side, we have a 1:09:02.600 --> 1:09:05.280 lot of sins to atone for you know, for the 1:09:05.320 --> 1:09:08.920 first hundred or two hundred fifty years of anthropology, we 1:09:09.000 --> 1:09:13.759 have anthropologists, you know, having skulls sent to them from 1:09:14.080 --> 1:09:18.320 Native American um battle sites right where the U. S. 1:09:18.400 --> 1:09:20.120 Army would go in and just sort of gather up 1:09:20.160 --> 1:09:22.960 a bunch of the heads and shipping back to Washington. 1:09:23.720 --> 1:09:25.800 Uh So there's a long and kind of sorted and 1:09:25.920 --> 1:09:30.800 unfortunate history in the relationship between Native Americans and you know, 1:09:30.960 --> 1:09:35.120 the scientific community and getting into genes, getting into d 1:09:35.240 --> 1:09:42.519 n A is a particularly invasives the wrong word, but 1:09:42.760 --> 1:09:45.080 it can be viewed in that way. It can be 1:09:45.280 --> 1:09:47.840 you as a contradictory, right. Well, I mean what it 1:09:47.960 --> 1:09:50.120 is is it's you know, it's taking your essence, it's 1:09:50.160 --> 1:09:52.240 taking your d n A. And I know a lot 1:09:52.280 --> 1:09:54.720 of a lot of people are concerned about, well, how 1:09:54.800 --> 1:09:57.040 much do people know about me from my genes? How 1:09:57.080 --> 1:09:58.720 much do they know about me from my d n A? 1:09:59.360 --> 1:10:01.320 And so you a hatch that to this sort of 1:10:01.400 --> 1:10:04.719 difficult history between the scientific community in the Native American 1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:08.120 community and their feelings about their DNA being part of 1:10:08.160 --> 1:10:11.519 somebody else's study. You know, we understand our history. We 1:10:11.560 --> 1:10:14.080 don't necessarily need you telling us stories about who we 1:10:14.120 --> 1:10:16.040 are and where we come from. I think you'd be 1:10:16.080 --> 1:10:17.639 able to speak to this better me. But there's also 1:10:17.680 --> 1:10:21.840 an issue of of defending a narrative against people who 1:10:21.840 --> 1:10:23.519 want to like un see a narrative like if you 1:10:23.520 --> 1:10:26.479 remember with kennewick Man, some guy took a look at 1:10:26.800 --> 1:10:29.000 the nine thousand year old school that comes out of 1:10:29.000 --> 1:10:31.080 the Columbia, right, He's like, Hi, that looks like a 1:10:31.120 --> 1:10:32.960 European to me. Yeah, I got a white guy with 1:10:33.000 --> 1:10:34.880 a spear point in him. That's exactly what. And then 1:10:34.920 --> 1:10:38.200 you're like, guess the first Americans weren't who we thought 1:10:38.520 --> 1:10:41.240 exactly well, in fact, good old Europeans it was. It 1:10:41.320 --> 1:10:43.920 was Esky's group. It was our group that in fact 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:46.840 sequence the kind of wig genome, and we showed that 1:10:46.920 --> 1:10:50.559 in fact, he's native American through and through. Okay, so 1:10:51.200 --> 1:10:55.400 it's a and you know, we always ask permission to 1:10:55.479 --> 1:10:58.120 get a genetic example from the living, But how do 1:10:58.160 --> 1:11:00.599 you how do you deal with the dead? Would imagine 1:11:00.600 --> 1:11:02.840 if you're talking about something that's twelve thousand years old, 1:11:03.560 --> 1:11:06.519 I don't know that someone has a real legitimate claim 1:11:06.520 --> 1:11:09.000 on that. Well, now see, there's a really interesting would 1:11:09.000 --> 1:11:13.720 be interesting for me to go and and and argue that. Uh, 1:11:13.840 --> 1:11:17.480 for me to for me to take offense about excavations 1:11:17.720 --> 1:11:23.200 of Italians in Italy that were from even a thousand 1:11:23.280 --> 1:11:24.920 years ago would be a stretch for me to act 1:11:24.920 --> 1:11:27.559 like I had input on that. But my ancestors are 1:11:28.040 --> 1:11:30.639 you know, some of my ancestors are from Sicily, So 1:11:31.760 --> 1:11:34.080 is that my business? If you're looking at something that's 1:11:34.120 --> 1:11:36.320 twelve tho years old, you're looking at groups that no 1:11:36.439 --> 1:11:41.960 doubt went through radical migrations, influxes of new people. Because 1:11:42.000 --> 1:11:45.519 someone's in Colorado now, or if someone's standing in Colorado 1:11:45.520 --> 1:11:48.280 twelve years ago, I think it'd be a pretty dubious 1:11:48.280 --> 1:11:53.040 assumption to say that that became the Northern Cheyenne or 1:11:53.080 --> 1:11:57.400 the you like, who knows, well, so, um, somebody twelve 1:11:57.400 --> 1:12:00.960 thousand years ago could have no answer, no ascendants at all, 1:12:01.520 --> 1:12:04.960 or they could have thousands, and we won't know unless 1:12:05.040 --> 1:12:09.559 we basically do the sort of before and after Florida 1:12:09.720 --> 1:12:12.720 exactly right. And and so the question also becomes, at 1:12:12.720 --> 1:12:14.960 what point, when you go back into the past, does 1:12:14.960 --> 1:12:19.160 something stop being tribal and just become human? Right? You 1:12:19.160 --> 1:12:21.920 know that this is in a sense, I don't know where, 1:12:22.160 --> 1:12:24.639 but I feel like that happened at twelve tho years ago. 1:12:25.200 --> 1:12:26.519 I don't I wouldn't want to be the guy that 1:12:26.560 --> 1:12:29.600 picks the number, but to me that look at the 1:12:31.080 --> 1:12:35.920 histories right, like Aboriginal oral histories Australia. They you know, 1:12:36.560 --> 1:12:40.679 they have this case of being able to talk about 1:12:40.680 --> 1:12:44.400 their history for thousands and thousands of years right, without question, 1:12:44.520 --> 1:12:49.760 without question. Oral history is remarkably uh strong, back to 1:12:49.800 --> 1:12:52.120 a certain point you know where you're you know, at 1:12:52.160 --> 1:12:54.360 that point you're just sort of getting the distant echoes 1:12:54.520 --> 1:12:56.639 and you know, how how valid is that are how 1:12:56.680 --> 1:13:00.360 reliable is it? The all of this is now sort 1:13:00.400 --> 1:13:04.280 of part and parcel of um NAGPRA, which is the 1:13:04.360 --> 1:13:09.479 Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which was intended 1:13:09.520 --> 1:13:11.800 to write a lot of those wrongs by saying that 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:15.640 human skeletal material, which is simply sitting in boxes in 1:13:15.760 --> 1:13:20.840 museums and universities, needs to be returned to the descendant communities. 1:13:21.240 --> 1:13:24.559 And how do you determine lineal descent, you know, over 1:13:24.680 --> 1:13:28.000 thousands just based on geography. Well, it's based on about 1:13:28.040 --> 1:13:30.400 ten different criteria, of which geography is one of them. 1:13:30.560 --> 1:13:33.680 And that's what made Kennewick so problematic was that here 1:13:33.800 --> 1:13:39.000 you've got an ancient individual who's talk about tell people 1:13:39.000 --> 1:13:43.280 what is okay. So kenna Wick was a human skeleton 1:13:43.360 --> 1:13:46.680 found in nine six on the banks of the Columbia 1:13:46.800 --> 1:13:49.559 River fourth of July or something, right, Yeah, it was 1:13:49.600 --> 1:13:54.040 the speedboat races that they have um on the Columbia 1:13:54.120 --> 1:13:57.360 and a couple of guys, a couple of twenties some things. 1:13:57.439 --> 1:13:59.599 We're trying to sneak in to watch the boat races. 1:13:59.640 --> 1:14:01.200 So they were walking along the river bank and they 1:14:01.240 --> 1:14:02.800 were going to climb the fence and get into the 1:14:03.400 --> 1:14:05.800 area to watch the races, and you know, one of 1:14:05.840 --> 1:14:08.479 them stepped on some of the bones. So they call 1:14:08.560 --> 1:14:10.559 in the corners. Right away, You're thinking it's a murder victim. 1:14:10.600 --> 1:14:12.920 Well exactly, So they called the coroner, and the coroner 1:14:13.040 --> 1:14:17.920 comes out there with um, a local archaeologist forensic anthropologist 1:14:18.000 --> 1:14:19.840 named Well. So he was already thinking this could be 1:14:19.920 --> 1:14:23.599 not but recently, this could not be a recent murderer. 1:14:23.680 --> 1:14:26.000 I think. I think what they what they would often 1:14:26.040 --> 1:14:27.559 do is turn the bones over to him and say, 1:14:27.600 --> 1:14:30.759 you know, tell us a story about how this person died. Uh. 1:14:30.800 --> 1:14:34.559 And so that's when he discovered the stone point, and 1:14:34.600 --> 1:14:37.120 then they radiocarbon dated it. That's when he gave the 1:14:37.160 --> 1:14:38.640 quote to the New York Times that said, I've got 1:14:38.680 --> 1:14:41.160 a white guy with a stone point in them because 1:14:41.160 --> 1:14:44.080 based on his look at the skull. It looked like 1:14:44.080 --> 1:14:48.600 a European. Isn't that called cranial morphology or something that's 1:14:48.600 --> 1:14:53.920 not even in the next step New York Times. It's undisciplined, 1:14:53.960 --> 1:14:56.160 is what it is? That that that whole that whole 1:14:56.160 --> 1:14:59.680 school thought about measuring relative These relative measurements on your 1:14:59.680 --> 1:15:03.840 skull very problematic, very problematic, because you know, the skull 1:15:03.960 --> 1:15:06.680 is incredibly plastic in an anatomical sense. It just it 1:15:07.320 --> 1:15:11.680 morphs over time and in very complex ways. Anyway, so 1:15:12.280 --> 1:15:13.960 they get a radio carbon date back on it, and 1:15:13.960 --> 1:15:16.599 suddenly you know, you've got a European on the banks 1:15:16.600 --> 1:15:19.360 of the Columbia. Excuse me, it's hard not to get 1:15:20.000 --> 1:15:25.160 cocked up about the banks of the Columbia. UM. They've 1:15:25.160 --> 1:15:30.760 got somebody here, UM who's not Native American. Well, uh, 1:15:30.880 --> 1:15:34.719 that that triggered a long running lawsuit several million dollars 1:15:34.920 --> 1:15:38.080 of you know, US tax dollars because the banks of 1:15:38.080 --> 1:15:41.920 the Columbia were controlled by UM Army Corps of Engineers, 1:15:42.560 --> 1:15:44.560 Department of Interior, you know, sort of picked up a 1:15:44.600 --> 1:15:48.720 portion of the U. The lawsuit bringing in their archaeologists. 1:15:49.760 --> 1:15:51.479 The long and short of it is is that the 1:15:52.000 --> 1:15:56.040 UM it went into the court and then into appeals court, 1:15:56.280 --> 1:15:58.640 and they said that, well, this isn't an end of 1:15:58.640 --> 1:16:04.960 American because it doesn't look one, and because it's that old. Well, um, 1:16:05.000 --> 1:16:08.960 so they did this analysis um of the skeletal material. 1:16:09.160 --> 1:16:12.800 I know, I know, we're into a weird um semantics thing, 1:16:13.880 --> 1:16:19.439 but this doesn't Let's let's say that had been true, 1:16:20.080 --> 1:16:22.280 they would draw into question what is a Native American? 1:16:22.400 --> 1:16:28.559 M Yeah, well what they what they decided was that 1:16:28.720 --> 1:16:31.640 you know, it wasn't and therefore NAG he wasn't and 1:16:31.680 --> 1:16:36.920 therefore NAG did not apply. So just based on just 1:16:37.000 --> 1:16:41.439 based on the appearance of the skull mhm, yeah, yeah, 1:16:41.520 --> 1:16:45.880 problematic science. And so Kennewick hit nagper right where it's 1:16:45.880 --> 1:16:47.640 weakest for just the reasons that you brought up a 1:16:47.640 --> 1:16:51.800 few moments ago. At that antiquity, how can you tell 1:16:52.400 --> 1:16:55.599 if in in in what way he's related. So one 1:16:55.600 --> 1:16:58.400 of the things that's come about in the last years 1:16:58.439 --> 1:17:05.080 since then is that NAGPRA now pays more attention to um. 1:17:05.120 --> 1:17:09.960 If you can't sort of determine lineal descent, then who 1:17:09.960 --> 1:17:13.599 were the tribes that live in the region, right? Uh? 1:17:13.640 --> 1:17:18.720 And so it's but we were able. We obtained a 1:17:18.720 --> 1:17:22.280 piece of a fingerbone of Kennewick. And this is Eski's team. 1:17:22.880 --> 1:17:25.559 I'm just the archaeologist with him, so I kind of 1:17:25.560 --> 1:17:28.160 provide the context and they do all the really heavy 1:17:28.200 --> 1:17:32.280 lifting in terms of the genetic work. And we were able, 1:17:32.320 --> 1:17:37.479 fortunately to obtain DNA samples from a number of the 1:17:37.479 --> 1:17:44.000 Callville tribe, the Confederated Tribe Callville, and they provided DNA 1:17:44.080 --> 1:17:47.160 samples that made it possible to sort of look at 1:17:47.200 --> 1:17:50.839 Kennewick relative to one of the tribes. In the Pacific Northwest. 1:17:50.840 --> 1:17:52.840 There were five tribes that had claimed Kennewick as a 1:17:52.880 --> 1:17:57.439 potential ancestor of theirs. So we did our sequencing, we 1:17:58.280 --> 1:18:03.960 produced our results, UM and it was a really interesting UM, 1:18:04.000 --> 1:18:07.760 a really interesting event because we published the paper in 1:18:07.880 --> 1:18:11.680 Nature in two thousand fifteen, major scientific journal, and they 1:18:11.720 --> 1:18:13.559 wanted to do a press conference because kind of Wei 1:18:13.640 --> 1:18:16.280 had been so controversial. They said, you know, we should 1:18:16.280 --> 1:18:19.439 really do a big announcement. And Eski called me and 1:18:19.439 --> 1:18:21.799 he said, We're going to do a press conference in London, 1:18:21.880 --> 1:18:25.840 and I said, nobody in London cares. Let's do it 1:18:25.880 --> 1:18:29.920 in Seattle. And so we did. Uh. And so that summer. 1:18:29.960 --> 1:18:32.040 I was I was in the field somewhere and I 1:18:32.080 --> 1:18:33.920 just got on a plane, went to Seattle, met up 1:18:33.920 --> 1:18:36.639 with Sky and Morton Rasmussen, who had done a lot 1:18:36.680 --> 1:18:40.720 of the work, and a number of the representatives of 1:18:40.760 --> 1:18:45.920 each of the five tribes showed up. We um, we 1:18:45.960 --> 1:18:48.880 gave our results, and one of the reporters at the 1:18:48.960 --> 1:18:51.559 time in the room said, well, what are the what 1:18:51.640 --> 1:18:56.720 are the tribes think? And Eski said, well, you've got 1:18:56.760 --> 1:18:59.800 representatives of them here, why don't you just ask and 1:19:00.000 --> 1:19:02.479 and after another representative each of the five tribes got 1:19:02.560 --> 1:19:05.400 up and talked about what it meant to have Kennewick 1:19:05.479 --> 1:19:08.920 shown to be a Native American. And it was really profound. 1:19:09.520 --> 1:19:12.000 I mean, we just gave the results. They gave the results, 1:19:12.080 --> 1:19:14.760 meaning they were able to say, look, you know, we 1:19:14.880 --> 1:19:17.320 felt very strongly about this from the get go that 1:19:17.439 --> 1:19:21.360 Kennewick was a Native American. We've been deeply unhappy and 1:19:21.400 --> 1:19:23.920 in fact resentful of all of the stuff that's been 1:19:23.960 --> 1:19:28.880 surrounding Kennewick, the lawsuit and everything like that. Um, they 1:19:28.920 --> 1:19:33.960 didn't appreciate, well, that's harsh. They wished it hadn't had 1:19:34.000 --> 1:19:36.280 to come to you know, all of the science and 1:19:36.320 --> 1:19:38.559 the genetics and everything like that, because they felt they 1:19:38.600 --> 1:19:41.640 understood what the answer was all along, but they were 1:19:41.680 --> 1:19:47.880 at least glad for that. So our results were obviously published. 1:19:48.560 --> 1:19:53.439 Um the uh the results were then checked by a 1:19:53.479 --> 1:19:58.120 group at the University of Chicago, and things just snowballed 1:19:58.200 --> 1:20:01.720 right after that. UM, I think the Senator from Washington 1:20:02.080 --> 1:20:05.559 put in a piece of legislation that said, Okay, it's done. 1:20:05.640 --> 1:20:07.439 Kennewick has been out of the ground long enough. It's 1:20:07.479 --> 1:20:09.520 time for him to be returned to the tribes and reburied. 1:20:10.280 --> 1:20:17.120 And uh. President Obama signed the legislation and literally Kennewick. 1:20:18.120 --> 1:20:22.360 A funny side note at the at the news conference, 1:20:23.160 --> 1:20:27.720 the reporter when the tribe said, we've agreed, as even 1:20:27.760 --> 1:20:30.439 though we we have our differences among the five of us, 1:20:30.720 --> 1:20:33.000 we've agreed that we're going to jointly rebury Kennewick, and 1:20:33.040 --> 1:20:34.320 one of the reporters said, where are you going to 1:20:34.360 --> 1:20:38.800 rebury it? I thought, do you really think they're gonna 1:20:38.880 --> 1:20:42.680 tell you after all of this, they're gonna tell you 1:20:42.720 --> 1:20:45.920 so that you can go look. Uh No, they said, no, 1:20:46.000 --> 1:20:48.200 well we're gonna this will be a private ceremony. So 1:20:48.439 --> 1:20:53.400 was there um, what was what was learned from the 1:20:53.880 --> 1:20:59.760 from the genetic sequencing of Kennewick, Well, in the comparison 1:20:59.800 --> 1:21:03.680 with with with indigenous groups that know what, the indigenous 1:21:03.680 --> 1:21:06.519 groups that provided samples. Okay, so what we learned was 1:21:06.600 --> 1:21:10.200 Kennewick is or was a part of a population that 1:21:10.280 --> 1:21:14.040 was ancestral to these populations. Could we draw a direct 1:21:14.080 --> 1:21:16.880 ancestry line. No, we could not. We would need a 1:21:16.920 --> 1:21:21.439 hell a lot more modern day samples to sort of 1:21:21.479 --> 1:21:26.080 figure out. So that didn't preclude other groups being related 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:29.599 to Kennewick, but it showed that at least the tribe 1:21:29.640 --> 1:21:34.080 that provided the samples was in some fashion related to Kennewick, 1:21:34.920 --> 1:21:39.600 more related than someone in Coastal Alaska. We don't know. 1:21:39.680 --> 1:21:41.200 We don't have a we don't have a genome from 1:21:41.200 --> 1:21:45.599 coastal Alaska. Uh yeah, But the key thing was was 1:21:46.520 --> 1:21:51.599 unequivocally Native American, despite what his head shape was. Uh 1:21:51.640 --> 1:21:57.640 So get into anzik mhm, like talking about who like 1:21:58.120 --> 1:22:03.040 the specimen anzick one. So an zick Um was a 1:22:03.120 --> 1:22:07.320 really important study because what it showed us for the 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:12.280 first time was that the Native American population, the ancestral 1:22:12.360 --> 1:22:16.719 Native American population that came into the America's got south 1:22:16.920 --> 1:22:22.040 of the big continental ice sheets, soon thereafter split into 1:22:22.120 --> 1:22:26.360 two major lineages. One of the lineages stayed up north 1:22:27.040 --> 1:22:28.719 and the other made it all the way to Tierra 1:22:28.800 --> 1:22:32.639 del Fuego. We call those Northern Native Americans and Southern 1:22:32.720 --> 1:22:35.400 Native Americans. And Anzick is actually a Southern Native American, 1:22:35.439 --> 1:22:38.200 even though of course he's hair in Montana, right. But 1:22:38.360 --> 1:22:42.080 descendants of Anzec make it all the way down through 1:22:42.160 --> 1:22:48.320 the hemisphere and rapidly. We have now genomes from other 1:22:48.360 --> 1:22:51.439 places in North America and a key one in south 1:22:51.760 --> 1:22:57.640 eastern Brazil, which indicate a very close relationship to the 1:22:57.720 --> 1:23:01.360 population of which Anzick was a part. So again this 1:23:01.400 --> 1:23:05.280 gets back to the issue of populations exploding. People doing 1:23:05.320 --> 1:23:09.120 really well. Turns out they're just hoofing it. They're moving 1:23:09.640 --> 1:23:13.280 really great distances and are being very successful at it. 1:23:13.720 --> 1:23:18.280 M HM. Was that that boy was buried with Ochre 1:23:18.439 --> 1:23:21.800 and Clovis points and things. Who holds those Clovis points Now? 1:23:23.520 --> 1:23:26.600 I do not know the answer to that, UM, but 1:23:26.760 --> 1:23:31.719 the individual himself has been reburied MHM. After the study 1:23:32.280 --> 1:23:36.599 Sarah and Zick, who's father I understand was the one 1:23:36.600 --> 1:23:40.040 who discovered it. UM actually was was one of the 1:23:40.120 --> 1:23:43.960 key persons who sort of triggered the re analysis of 1:23:44.000 --> 1:23:46.280 Antick and said, you know, she she felt that, you know, 1:23:46.320 --> 1:23:49.519 we shouldn't just have these bones just sitting around. Let's 1:23:49.720 --> 1:23:52.360 let's let's be done with this. Let's learn what we 1:23:52.400 --> 1:23:59.439 can and then let's rebury. Uh. You have the first 1:23:59.439 --> 1:24:01.800 book I had of years and for men, it sat 1:24:01.960 --> 1:24:04.599 my coffee table for many years. Was your Folsome book. 1:24:05.000 --> 1:24:07.000 I think you did Foalsome first, right in terms of 1:24:07.000 --> 1:24:10.439 your big like popular coffee table books. I wouldn't have 1:24:10.479 --> 1:24:12.120 thought of that as a coffee table book, but I'm 1:24:12.160 --> 1:24:15.080 glad you found room for it on yours. Well by that, 1:24:15.280 --> 1:24:19.960 I mean large format color photography. Yeah, okay, okay, okay, 1:24:20.240 --> 1:24:21.800 I don't know what the hell is that's that's that 1:24:21.920 --> 1:24:24.360 is a coffee table book. It was all black and 1:24:24.360 --> 1:24:27.800 white pictures. Really, yeah, sorry, it's got a color photo. 1:24:28.160 --> 1:24:31.759 Well that in your memory memories are always in color, right, Steven. 1:24:32.040 --> 1:24:34.840 But yeah, but I have the damn book. Okay, what 1:24:34.880 --> 1:24:36.720 are you called? You described the book to me. It's 1:24:36.720 --> 1:24:40.479 a big gas it's it's a large study of the 1:24:40.560 --> 1:24:43.400 Falsome site. Yeah, not a coffee Oh you're taking insult 1:24:43.400 --> 1:24:53.960 that I called that okay his magnum opus. Sure, and 1:24:54.000 --> 1:24:56.360 then you did. I'm glad you bought the book First 1:24:56.360 --> 1:25:00.439 People in a New Worlds, which which is that its color? 1:25:00.960 --> 1:25:03.599 Now that book, that book lays out the whole damn deal. 1:25:03.720 --> 1:25:06.720 That's the whole damn deal. I mean, it's just the 1:25:07.840 --> 1:25:11.519 title says it all. First People's in a New World 1:25:11.600 --> 1:25:15.080 If you're interested in ice age hunters and clovis and 1:25:15.840 --> 1:25:20.000 killing mammoth or not or not, that's the important This 1:25:20.080 --> 1:25:21.800 is your book. And then a decade went by and 1:25:21.800 --> 1:25:23.120 you had to update it, so you got a new 1:25:23.120 --> 1:25:25.120 one coming out. Well, listen, I had to update. I 1:25:25.160 --> 1:25:28.439 want to get a full signed collection of your well okay, okay, um, 1:25:28.560 --> 1:25:30.719 do you want the fulsome points with him? Yes, okay, 1:25:32.280 --> 1:25:35.680 so um. That book was actually almost obsolete as soon 1:25:35.720 --> 1:25:37.680 as it came out First People's in two thousand nine. 1:25:37.720 --> 1:25:41.240 And the reason was in two thousand nine, I could 1:25:41.280 --> 1:25:46.120 see ancient genomes on the horizon. I knew, you know, 1:25:46.120 --> 1:25:48.519 because in those days, the genetic information that we were 1:25:48.520 --> 1:25:52.600 getting was extraordinarily limited. We hadn't quite broken through the 1:25:52.640 --> 1:25:55.960 barrier of getting genome wide data. All we were getting 1:25:56.000 --> 1:25:59.400 were mitochondrial DNA and y chromosome DNA, and just to 1:25:59.400 --> 1:26:01.880 give the really version of it, it's only telling you 1:26:01.920 --> 1:26:04.760 about a single ancestor on your mother's side and your 1:26:04.760 --> 1:26:08.760 father's side. The genome tells you about all the people. Well, 1:26:08.800 --> 1:26:11.439 there's a there's a whole lot of complications to that statement, 1:26:11.640 --> 1:26:14.200 but it tells you about thousands of ancestors that you have, 1:26:14.800 --> 1:26:18.439 whereas mitochondrial and y chromosome DNA only a single ancestor 1:26:18.520 --> 1:26:22.080 a piece. I knew that genome wide studies were coming 1:26:22.200 --> 1:26:25.519 when I was writing First People's I knew that we 1:26:25.560 --> 1:26:29.200 would get ancient DNA, but it was still I mean, 1:26:29.240 --> 1:26:32.520 I didn't know how far off it was in the future. Um, 1:26:32.560 --> 1:26:34.800 But I published the book and literally, you know, the 1:26:34.800 --> 1:26:37.240 book comes out in two thousand nine, in two thousand ten, 1:26:37.720 --> 1:26:40.240 is the first ancient genome published? Yeah? But was anything 1:26:40.280 --> 1:26:43.600 in the book down't? I mean, I haven't read it 1:26:43.600 --> 1:26:45.160 a long time. I mean I read, I read the 1:26:45.160 --> 1:26:48.360 whole damn book. But was anything in there flat out 1:26:48.439 --> 1:26:51.679 contradicted or was it just missing explanation that you would 1:26:51.680 --> 1:26:53.920 have liked to have included? Do you really want me 1:26:53.960 --> 1:26:55.680 to air the dirty laundry and why I had to 1:26:55.680 --> 1:27:00.400 write a new edition And sort of quietly, I guess 1:27:00.439 --> 1:27:03.960 that question was anything in there? Was it just that you, 1:27:04.840 --> 1:27:08.640 let's say you were gonna you were trying to um, 1:27:08.680 --> 1:27:11.960 you're trying to publish the alphabet R A to Z 1:27:12.240 --> 1:27:15.760 and you did A to X perfectly, and then they 1:27:15.760 --> 1:27:18.400 add y and Z and you're like, darn, yeah, I'm 1:27:18.400 --> 1:27:21.000 gonna do a new one has y and z. Or 1:27:21.120 --> 1:27:23.360 was it that you had the whole alphabet wrong? Well, 1:27:23.400 --> 1:27:25.960 I'd like to think I had most of the alphabet right. Um. 1:27:26.400 --> 1:27:29.400 There were things that um, I have changed and changed 1:27:29.439 --> 1:27:33.559 significantly in the new edition. But the real, uh, the 1:27:33.800 --> 1:27:38.439 real novel parts are the last ten years of the 1:27:38.479 --> 1:27:42.880 genetic work. There's been just a huge amount of information 1:27:42.920 --> 1:27:47.000 that's come out about population history, but there's been a 1:27:47.080 --> 1:27:51.519 lot of changes in other sections about sea level change. 1:27:52.120 --> 1:27:56.439 There's a bunch more sites that have come out there 1:27:56.479 --> 1:28:00.080 as being especially old, sort of so called preclue of 1:28:00.120 --> 1:28:04.799 his sites. UM. So yeah, there's a lot that's new. 1:28:04.960 --> 1:28:08.160 But the real, the real push, the real impetus for 1:28:08.200 --> 1:28:11.880 me to do the new addition was the genetics, because 1:28:11.920 --> 1:28:15.840 I've been heavily involved in that pretty much almost since 1:28:16.479 --> 1:28:20.880 the book came out working with Willerslevski Willerslev and his group. 1:28:20.960 --> 1:28:23.560 So I've been basically I've had a seat at the 1:28:23.600 --> 1:28:26.400 table watching all of this stuff unfold. And so when 1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:29.200 I looked at the book, um, I thought, you know, jeez, 1:28:29.720 --> 1:28:33.760 this is really dated. Uh, and people are getting you know, 1:28:33.840 --> 1:28:37.679 circa two thousand eight when I wrote it the view then, 1:28:37.720 --> 1:28:40.439 and it's just an terribly incomplete We were definitely missing 1:28:40.560 --> 1:28:43.840 Y and Z in the alphabet. What's that book coming out? 1:28:44.840 --> 1:28:46.720 Both of them? So both of them were supposed to 1:28:46.720 --> 1:28:48.280 be out a year or so ago, but as we 1:28:48.320 --> 1:28:51.400 all know, uh, two thousand twenty was the year time 1:28:51.439 --> 1:28:56.120 stood still and nothing happened, um because of the pandemic 1:28:56.880 --> 1:28:59.880 and so everything just ground to a halt. But both 1:29:00.040 --> 1:29:01.880 then will be out one in June. This is the 1:29:01.880 --> 1:29:04.240 Mountaineer Book will be out in June, and the new 1:29:04.280 --> 1:29:06.840 First People's Book will be out in July. Now, why 1:29:06.840 --> 1:29:10.400 did you not roll the Mountaineer information into Oh, there's 1:29:10.400 --> 1:29:13.120 some of it in the First People's Book, so one 1:29:13.160 --> 1:29:15.439 can get a good sense of that site. In the 1:29:15.439 --> 1:29:29.560 First People's Book, did you cover the Cooper's Ferry? Idaho? 1:29:29.920 --> 1:29:33.960 I do, I do? That's the new one. Yeah, oh yeah, no, 1:29:34.120 --> 1:29:38.160 I well, because of the pandemic, um I spent I 1:29:38.160 --> 1:29:41.120 didn't go out in the field. In I spent a 1:29:41.120 --> 1:29:43.320 lot of time writing, and I spent a lot of 1:29:43.320 --> 1:29:46.599 time riding, right, you know, because you can only write 1:29:46.640 --> 1:29:49.240 for you know, ten fourteen hours a day, and you 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:51.280 just got to get on your bicycle and burn thirty 1:29:51.360 --> 1:29:55.599 or forty miles just to sort of do something. So yeah, 1:29:55.800 --> 1:29:59.040 I was actually updating the book because nothing was happening 1:29:59.080 --> 1:30:01.479 with it, so I just kept heading material to it. 1:30:02.080 --> 1:30:04.759 I'm not sure the publisher was all that thrilled. Because 1:30:05.120 --> 1:30:07.040 can I can I squeeze this in? Can I? Can 1:30:07.080 --> 1:30:09.599 I ask you about what what you think of the 1:30:10.200 --> 1:30:15.640 um the stone samples like the possible origin points of 1:30:15.680 --> 1:30:18.599 the stone samples found it at Cooper's Ferry? So one, 1:30:18.640 --> 1:30:21.720 do you want you better explain what you're talking about? Okay? So, um, 1:30:21.960 --> 1:30:26.040 do you mind if I let the doctor? The doctor 1:30:26.080 --> 1:30:29.479 will see you know, So cal Um, I think what 1:30:29.520 --> 1:30:33.280 you're referring to are the projectile points that they argue 1:30:33.400 --> 1:30:39.120 have affinities to ones from northern Japan that you're making. Yeah, ah, 1:30:40.640 --> 1:30:44.080 they never quit do it? Well? Okay, let me let me. 1:30:44.720 --> 1:30:47.040 Let me first start by saying uh, and then the 1:30:47.080 --> 1:30:50.000 other shoe will drop in a minute. Um. The site 1:30:50.120 --> 1:30:55.679 is exquisitely excavated. Uh. Lauren Davis is a terrific archaeologist. UM. 1:30:56.280 --> 1:30:59.080 And the dates on the site, you know, there's been 1:30:59.120 --> 1:31:02.880 some put back on it, but UM, I think that 1:31:03.000 --> 1:31:05.400 site falls in in the range of a whole bunch 1:31:05.400 --> 1:31:07.120 of other sites that we have in the Americas that 1:31:07.200 --> 1:31:10.519 sort of date around fifteen and a half thousand or 1:31:10.520 --> 1:31:13.559 so years ago. Um. It's an old site that that 1:31:13.640 --> 1:31:18.600 part I get old site. Yeah. Well, and and in 1:31:18.800 --> 1:31:24.439 controversial to some people because for for the location, right, 1:31:24.479 --> 1:31:26.920 it's like, oh, it could be so old that it 1:31:26.960 --> 1:31:30.800 should be completely under ice A. No, no, no, um, 1:31:30.840 --> 1:31:35.719 not at that point. No. UM. But the UM, Well, 1:31:37.320 --> 1:31:39.400 so you've got this site at fifteen five, You've got 1:31:39.400 --> 1:31:42.599 other sites around that's sort of same chronological ballpark fifteen 1:31:42.640 --> 1:31:46.120 five to fifteen and and it actually matches up pretty 1:31:46.200 --> 1:31:49.200 nicely with the genetic evidence, because we've got genetic evidence 1:31:49.200 --> 1:31:52.679 that we've got these populations splitting out and coming into 1:31:52.680 --> 1:31:55.320 the America's around fifteen and a half or sixteen thousand. 1:31:55.400 --> 1:31:57.439 So we're starting to get actually a really nice consistent 1:31:57.479 --> 1:32:00.880 story about the people in process. The the part where 1:32:00.920 --> 1:32:04.639 I sort of depart from the um. The argument that 1:32:05.000 --> 1:32:09.080 Lauren Davis and colleagues have made is tying it to 1:32:10.080 --> 1:32:13.559 northern Japan and the sort of paleolithic occupation in that 1:32:13.600 --> 1:32:16.360 part of the world. And they're basing it on similarities 1:32:16.439 --> 1:32:20.080 in the projectile points in the spear points. And the 1:32:20.160 --> 1:32:25.200 problematic aspect is, uh, what they've got are some fragmentary 1:32:25.240 --> 1:32:30.040 points there in Idaho, which they say, oh, well, these 1:32:30.080 --> 1:32:33.120 look like, you know, these full blown points, uh, these 1:32:33.120 --> 1:32:35.760 complete points over here in Japan, and they sort of 1:32:35.840 --> 1:32:38.479 make the match by just taking a little tiny fragment 1:32:38.520 --> 1:32:40.120 and kind of putting it on top of one of 1:32:40.160 --> 1:32:43.519 these Japanese points and saying, look, it's the same form. Well, 1:32:44.160 --> 1:32:47.479 you can't do that, right, because that's also the same 1:32:47.479 --> 1:32:49.960 form as a bunch of projectile points in other parts 1:32:50.000 --> 1:32:52.800 of the world at other times as well. If you're 1:32:52.840 --> 1:32:55.559 going to draw a direct link, it's going to be 1:32:55.640 --> 1:32:57.320 And this gets back to what I was saying earlier. 1:32:57.520 --> 1:33:00.800 Population history and identifying whose related to who is not 1:33:00.920 --> 1:33:03.640 something we can do readily with the archaeological record, and 1:33:03.760 --> 1:33:06.519 especially with little fragments of points that you say, Okay, 1:33:06.520 --> 1:33:09.240 well this one matches that. No, it's just a little 1:33:09.240 --> 1:33:12.000 tiny fragment. You know, you can't say that if this 1:33:12.040 --> 1:33:15.120 thing was full blown and complete that it would in 1:33:15.160 --> 1:33:18.080 fact resemble this one over here in Japan thousands of 1:33:18.120 --> 1:33:21.760 miles away, right, And how would you? Maybe it's the 1:33:21.760 --> 1:33:24.840 base of a little doll. Well, that's it, right, I mean, 1:33:24.880 --> 1:33:26.920 it's just a point base or a point tip, and 1:33:27.040 --> 1:33:29.639 point bases and point tips can be pretty damn generic. 1:33:30.120 --> 1:33:34.280 That that being said, do you what do you think about? 1:33:35.160 --> 1:33:40.200 Because also this because of the water access, right, there 1:33:40.200 --> 1:33:43.400 are some conclusions that were kind of drawn as far 1:33:43.479 --> 1:33:49.680 as like people could have gotten here through a coastal migration, right, right, 1:33:49.720 --> 1:33:54.120 and so like early boat use and and in traveling 1:33:54.160 --> 1:33:59.600 some open water in early early boats, like do you 1:33:59.760 --> 1:34:03.240 do hold with any of that? Okay? Okay? Which is 1:34:03.280 --> 1:34:05.640 why I like it? Okay, Well, I'm gonna make you 1:34:05.680 --> 1:34:10.559 a happy guy that it's fun to think about, Okay, 1:34:10.560 --> 1:34:13.960 why I like it? So another another thing that's come 1:34:13.960 --> 1:34:16.719 out of ancient DNA, it's the gift that keeps on giving, 1:34:17.960 --> 1:34:21.720 is that you can extract DNA at a sediment. And 1:34:21.840 --> 1:34:25.639 one of the projects really Steve is looking skeptical here. Well, no, 1:34:25.720 --> 1:34:29.320 I'm just not skeptical surprised. What's in there? Mark? Oh, 1:34:29.439 --> 1:34:35.479 you wouldn't believe a DNA type of term? Yeah, well 1:34:35.479 --> 1:34:40.200 that's that's the sort of accepted scientific term. Um. Sorry, yeah, okay, 1:34:40.280 --> 1:34:43.040 So what's hiding in there? It's basically anything that shed 1:34:43.160 --> 1:34:47.880 any DNA over that particular quadic vegetation. You name it, 1:34:48.000 --> 1:34:56.720 you name it vegetation. So. Another of the projects that 1:34:56.800 --> 1:35:00.120 I was involved with Eski's group was so the Ice 1:35:00.160 --> 1:35:02.479 Free Corridor. We must have talked about it the last 1:35:02.520 --> 1:35:03.760 time I was here. Oh yeah, I used to be 1:35:03.800 --> 1:35:05.439 a big fan of that thing. Yeah, well we're not 1:35:05.479 --> 1:35:10.680 anymore neither. You go, and well you can't. I like 1:35:10.720 --> 1:35:13.600 a lot of people like, you know, like Whens is 1:35:13.640 --> 1:35:17.360 part of the Red Yeah, that's exactly like this wall 1:35:17.520 --> 1:35:21.320 of ice, right, and he's like badass hunters. This little 1:35:21.439 --> 1:35:24.680 gap cracks through and it come out, and there's just 1:35:24.720 --> 1:35:30.759 the American Great Plains story. It's just it's just not true. Sad, 1:35:30.920 --> 1:35:33.400 isn't it. Um. So, one of the projects that we 1:35:33.439 --> 1:35:37.760 did was Michael Peterson, one of Eski's guys, cored a 1:35:37.800 --> 1:35:41.040 couple of lakes, right, in the dead center of that corridor, 1:35:41.240 --> 1:35:45.040 and the corridor opened like a zipper, a zipper jacket 1:35:45.040 --> 1:35:47.559 that opens from the top and the bottom, So the 1:35:47.600 --> 1:35:50.040 top and the bottom opened earliest, but the middle part 1:35:50.280 --> 1:35:53.280 of the zipper, you know, stay closed. So he got 1:35:53.320 --> 1:35:57.120 a couple of cores from lakes right in that sort 1:35:57.120 --> 1:36:00.200 of un zippered part, right right after it opened. And 1:36:00.640 --> 1:36:04.519 what we found was nothing was living there until around 1:36:04.520 --> 1:36:07.639 twelve thousand, six years ago. So even if you round 1:36:07.720 --> 1:36:10.360 up we were talking about rounding up earlier, right, even 1:36:10.400 --> 1:36:12.800 if you round up to thirteen thousand, that's still too 1:36:12.960 --> 1:36:15.120 late to get people south of the ice They were 1:36:15.120 --> 1:36:17.439 already down there. They were already down there fishing, fishing 1:36:17.439 --> 1:36:25.320 and cows little spot exactly, fishing, at least at least 1:36:24.920 --> 1:36:29.120 they well. In fact, one of the arguments that's been 1:36:29.160 --> 1:36:31.720 made is that people were sort of coming down the 1:36:31.760 --> 1:36:34.479 coast following these salmon runs, and then when they got 1:36:34.520 --> 1:36:36.840 south of the ice sheet, they headed up the major 1:36:36.920 --> 1:36:39.880 river systems, head up to Columbia, get onto the snake, 1:36:40.439 --> 1:36:43.519 move yourself interior. Doesn't that change because it was supposed 1:36:43.520 --> 1:36:47.680 to be mammoth hunters, not salmon fisherman. Yeah, does that 1:36:47.720 --> 1:36:51.720 offend you as an old river at myself. I have 1:36:51.760 --> 1:36:53.960 no problem with it. I have no problem with it. 1:36:54.080 --> 1:36:57.799 I just it's not the romantic vision that we always 1:36:57.840 --> 1:37:00.880 had held to. Yeah, but then it never made much sense. 1:37:01.200 --> 1:37:03.719 Are you going to go after three and a half 1:37:03.720 --> 1:37:07.479 four ton animal that doesn't like you with a stick 1:37:07.600 --> 1:37:09.960 with a sharp rock at the end of it when 1:37:09.960 --> 1:37:13.720 you're just tripping over seafood or whatever? Right? Or turtles 1:37:14.800 --> 1:37:18.519 turtles Kelp for us Kelp Forest. I'm not sure I'm 1:37:18.520 --> 1:37:20.759 gonna go with Kelp Forest with the Kelp just because 1:37:20.840 --> 1:37:23.519 we we don't really know what the place to see 1:37:24.280 --> 1:37:27.559 sort of seascape. But that's another theory, right, it's like 1:37:27.600 --> 1:37:33.280 the Kelp Forest Kelp Highway. That's right, cruising down the 1:37:33.320 --> 1:37:37.040 Kelp Highway. Yeah, it just breaks the seeds magically, and 1:37:37.080 --> 1:37:40.760 you can travel from Japan, yeah, big Stone Point and 1:37:40.800 --> 1:37:42.679 get it all the way to Cooper's and then break 1:37:42.720 --> 1:37:46.200 it into pieces. Yeah eventually. Like man, I've been carrying 1:37:46.200 --> 1:37:49.519 around this Big Stone Point for yeah, generations and no 1:37:49.520 --> 1:37:51.640 one's used it yet. My daddy hand down to me. 1:37:51.920 --> 1:37:54.559 But we don't necessarily think they had boats either, because 1:37:54.600 --> 1:37:56.840 we now and this is again you know, it's in 1:37:56.880 --> 1:38:00.599 the new book. Any kind of water craft. They didn't 1:38:00.640 --> 1:38:03.400 have to have it because by the time we think 1:38:03.479 --> 1:38:05.679 people were moving down the coast, the coast was clear 1:38:05.720 --> 1:38:07.640 by around sixteen and a half to seven. How they 1:38:07.680 --> 1:38:10.720 going to cross like the Stikeen? And well, now that 1:38:10.960 --> 1:38:13.519 is you know, that's a question, right, So if you're 1:38:13.520 --> 1:38:16.519 coming down in winter, are these things going to be frozen? Oh? 1:38:16.560 --> 1:38:22.920 I don't know how hard would it have been to make? Uh? 1:38:23.000 --> 1:38:27.040 I am getting into the game. I was not going 1:38:27.080 --> 1:38:29.640 to becoming an anthropologist, but I am. Now are you 1:38:29.640 --> 1:38:33.080 gonna approach it from? I've drawn some conclusions. How I 1:38:33.120 --> 1:38:35.839 need to go out and in your in your bizs 1:38:36.240 --> 1:38:37.719 Dr Melic, what do you call the kind of paper 1:38:37.720 --> 1:38:44.200 where you just throw out an idea? Oh, a speculative paper, okay, 1:38:45.600 --> 1:38:47.960 a doctor, But you play one on the radio saying 1:38:48.000 --> 1:38:50.880 that they had to have had some type of small 1:38:51.760 --> 1:38:54.240 skin craft that they could use a scoot across the river. 1:38:54.479 --> 1:38:56.360 I think that's about the extent of my paper, okay, 1:38:56.400 --> 1:38:58.760 And that's actually a fine paper. The problem is that 1:38:58.840 --> 1:39:01.120 you're going to get in that skin craft and you know, 1:39:01.160 --> 1:39:03.360 somewhere on the Aleutian Islands and paddle all the way down. No, 1:39:03.400 --> 1:39:05.479 because you're gonna have to constantly haul it out now 1:39:05.560 --> 1:39:08.639 and then you're like, we gotta make another boat. Oh absolutely, Well, 1:39:08.680 --> 1:39:12.040 look people cross the Mississippi. They had to have something 1:39:12.400 --> 1:39:14.720 to get across these kind of making your children and 1:39:14.760 --> 1:39:17.440 your gear craft. Yeah, yeah, no, so they had watercraft. 1:39:17.439 --> 1:39:20.240 What I was you mean like watercraft water? Well, yeah, 1:39:20.280 --> 1:39:22.240 I'm I mean I'm talking about the idea that they 1:39:22.240 --> 1:39:24.679 actually made boats and sort of traveled down the coast 1:39:24.680 --> 1:39:26.720 without one setting foot on land, which is one of 1:39:26.720 --> 1:39:29.200 the theories that's that's been out already paper about that. 1:39:30.640 --> 1:39:36.639 I'll let you I'm already got I've already got a PhD. 1:39:36.680 --> 1:39:40.439 You can you can be senior author. Want Oh sorry, Spencer, 1:39:40.439 --> 1:39:42.240 go ahead. Last month, my wife and I went to 1:39:42.320 --> 1:39:44.320 Utah and we were camping. We spent a whole day 1:39:44.400 --> 1:39:47.639 hiking two different petrol glyphs in the area. And there 1:39:47.720 --> 1:39:49.719 was this one site that you hiked, you and there's 1:39:49.760 --> 1:39:52.639 these petrol glyphs amazing, and then a hundred feet further 1:39:52.760 --> 1:39:56.360 there's these dinosaur tracks that are fossil lives petrol glyphs 1:39:56.600 --> 1:39:59.600 five thousand years old. Dinosaur tracks were like hundred and 1:39:59.600 --> 1:40:01.920 fifty million years old at least, and it like put 1:40:01.920 --> 1:40:03.920 me in a real brain pretzel and it was like 1:40:04.080 --> 1:40:07.160 real hard to calibrate. Does that ever happen where you're 1:40:07.200 --> 1:40:10.760 like excavating some site that's like three thousand and you'd 1:40:10.840 --> 1:40:14.200 like collide with something that's a hundred million years old? 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:18.080 That's significant? Well, sure, because people are people and people 1:40:18.080 --> 1:40:21.639 pick up things. So um, I don't know if this 1:40:21.760 --> 1:40:24.000 story is true or not, but I've heard it that 1:40:24.240 --> 1:40:29.200 in some of the excavations at one of the pueblos 1:40:29.320 --> 1:40:33.559 um ancient pueblos and maybe Choco Canyon, they found a 1:40:33.560 --> 1:40:37.799 falsome point. Now, obviously falsome people weren't living in Chaco 1:40:37.880 --> 1:40:42.400 Canyon a thousand years ago, but somebody there saw a 1:40:42.439 --> 1:40:44.240 falsome point on the ground and thought, oh wow, that's 1:40:44.240 --> 1:40:47.920 pretty cool, brought it home. Right, So collectors, right, we 1:40:47.920 --> 1:40:49.439 were talking about people that like to go out and 1:40:49.439 --> 1:40:53.280 collect stuff. They collect crnoids, they collect fossils. So yeah, 1:40:53.400 --> 1:40:57.360 it's actually not uncommon uh too. I mean it's not 1:40:57.439 --> 1:40:59.920 common necessarily, but it's not uncommon to have that sort 1:40:59.920 --> 1:41:04.439 of asynchronous uh set of materials actually out on a 1:41:04.520 --> 1:41:07.639 site where you've got something that's millions or many many 1:41:07.680 --> 1:41:10.760 millions of years old next to something that's fairly recent. 1:41:10.920 --> 1:41:12.760 Have you been following We're gonna we're trying to get 1:41:12.840 --> 1:41:14.920 him on the show once he gets vaccinated. But we're 1:41:15.400 --> 1:41:19.320 Mike kuns is crazy glass beads out of Genera, Italy 1:41:20.120 --> 1:41:22.519 in Alaska. He sent me that paper he was talking 1:41:22.520 --> 1:41:24.880 about that in two thousand eight. Yeah, well it took 1:41:24.920 --> 1:41:26.640 a while to get that paper published. In fact, it 1:41:26.720 --> 1:41:28.640 may not even have appeared yet. Are you buying it? 1:41:29.080 --> 1:41:32.320 Am I by doing something bad by talking about it? No? No, no, no, 1:41:32.360 --> 1:41:35.000 it's impressed. It's impressed. It's just I don't think the 1:41:35.040 --> 1:41:38.800 issue is shown up in my anyways. Glass beads, well, 1:41:38.840 --> 1:41:43.599 I'm not made in Italy. That that would have had 1:41:43.640 --> 1:41:47.760 to have come the hard way, the hard way out 1:41:47.760 --> 1:41:55.519 of like through Europe, cross headed east, then crossed the 1:41:55.600 --> 1:42:00.040 Bearing straight and landed in Alaska, way before anybody you 1:42:00.040 --> 1:42:02.000 would have ever thought about bringing them from the other 1:42:02.040 --> 1:42:05.760 through the America's those some crazy ass beads. Well, but 1:42:05.800 --> 1:42:08.519 think about the Silk road. I think how easy they 1:42:08.520 --> 1:42:13.719 are to transport. Well, and you forget about in your pocket? Boy, Well, 1:42:14.400 --> 1:42:18.080 we need to move on to dogs. Go ahead. You 1:42:18.479 --> 1:42:22.320 think that the beads were carried by dogs. That's very plausible. 1:42:22.560 --> 1:42:25.479 There's some fancy leashes and stuff in Mexico. I've seen 1:42:26.000 --> 1:42:31.920 turquoise Yeah, alright, dogs. Yeah, what do you do you? 1:42:32.280 --> 1:42:37.080 I feel that because Americans have I shouldn't just say 1:42:37.320 --> 1:42:39.880 it's probably's probably some global aspect to this, just an 1:42:39.880 --> 1:42:43.680 insatiable appetite for dog information. Dogs are cool. I mean, 1:42:43.800 --> 1:42:46.760 people eat it up, man um. And I feel that 1:42:46.880 --> 1:42:49.040 in the last I don't know how long it's been 1:42:49.040 --> 1:42:52.559 going on decades whatever, years, you see a hell of 1:42:52.560 --> 1:42:59.200 a lot of news speculation, publications about hey, where do 1:42:59.280 --> 1:43:02.080 these things come from? Anyway, it's like a hot question 1:43:02.200 --> 1:43:05.200 right now. It's it's genetics again, Steve, because is that 1:43:05.240 --> 1:43:08.160 what's just opening up new just opening up new windows 1:43:08.160 --> 1:43:15.320 of opportunity? Absolutely? Absolutely, and and it's now becoming clear that, um, 1:43:15.439 --> 1:43:19.160 the dog history is incredibly complicated. It's incredibly interesting too, 1:43:19.160 --> 1:43:22.040 in the sense that that's the first species humans domesticated. 1:43:22.960 --> 1:43:26.400 We've been around like that. That feels ironclad. Oh yeah, 1:43:26.439 --> 1:43:29.080 oh yeah, because it's by like a huge amount of time, right, 1:43:29.640 --> 1:43:33.559 ten thousand plus years, ten thousand plus so uh yeah, 1:43:33.640 --> 1:43:35.639 I mean dogs have been our pals for a long time. 1:43:35.880 --> 1:43:38.439 And they've been not just our pals, but they've been 1:43:38.600 --> 1:43:42.640 our sort of workhorses, work dogs. They've been part of 1:43:42.640 --> 1:43:45.720 our cultural repertoire as it were. Uh, you know, for 1:43:45.800 --> 1:43:48.960 many groups, dogs were a tool. They were used for hunting, 1:43:49.360 --> 1:43:53.280 they were used for defense, guarding, warning systems. I mean, 1:43:53.400 --> 1:43:56.280 dogs are great. In fact, when I got together with 1:43:56.320 --> 1:43:59.559 these folks too, uh produce this dog paper that we 1:43:59.600 --> 1:44:02.639 had just just published this past well just a couple 1:44:02.640 --> 1:44:05.880 of months ago actually, Um, I was really excited about it, 1:44:05.920 --> 1:44:07.240 but I told him that, you know, if this was 1:44:07.280 --> 1:44:09.200 a story about cats, they'd have to find somebody else 1:44:09.240 --> 1:44:14.200 to work with them. I don't do cats, big cat down, 1:44:14.200 --> 1:44:19.080 the big time cat guy right there. Sorry, Spencer, you 1:44:19.120 --> 1:44:20.880 can write the paper the next time, you know, cats 1:44:20.880 --> 1:44:25.320 come along. Yeah, yeah, all right, So you want to 1:44:25.360 --> 1:44:28.120 talk about the paper. I want to talk about the paper. 1:44:28.479 --> 1:44:31.760 Um Can I tell you my thing first or later? 1:44:32.920 --> 1:44:34.880 Like I think I might have uncovered some good source 1:44:34.920 --> 1:44:37.439 material for you. You're the host, you go, I'm reading 1:44:37.479 --> 1:44:39.519 a book and I'm gonna do a big, big, huge 1:44:39.560 --> 1:44:41.880 book report on this show coming soon. I'm reading a 1:44:41.880 --> 1:44:45.000 book with don't judge my brother said to me. Listen. 1:44:45.280 --> 1:44:48.360 My brother said to me, said, don't look at the title. 1:44:49.560 --> 1:44:53.320 Just read the book. Okay, the title is Alaska's Wolf Man. No, 1:44:53.640 --> 1:44:55.439 but it's in red. What it's about the guy that 1:44:55.479 --> 1:45:00.560 goes up to Alaska. He's a market hunter, so he 1:45:01.520 --> 1:45:04.879 for road building crews and mining camps. He hunts dollsheep 1:45:04.880 --> 1:45:08.840 and caribou. But in the early days, like leading up 1:45:08.880 --> 1:45:14.479 to statehood, he becomes a government wolfer and he winds 1:45:14.560 --> 1:45:16.639 up doing a bunch of like at the same time, 1:45:16.960 --> 1:45:22.000 out in western Alaska, Askimo groups are trying to they're 1:45:22.000 --> 1:45:27.120 trying to help Askimo groups diversify their economy by reindeer 1:45:27.160 --> 1:45:30.120 with bringing in reindeer herds. But wolf predation on these 1:45:30.160 --> 1:45:32.559 reindeer heers is horrible because reindeer just don't get it right. 1:45:33.240 --> 1:45:35.240 They just you know, they're coming in from somewhere else, 1:45:35.400 --> 1:45:38.559 term loose, and they're just picking sitting targets. He winds 1:45:38.600 --> 1:45:40.920 up doing a bunch of He winds up doing a 1:45:40.920 --> 1:45:44.679 bunch of wolf work all around the state, usually where 1:45:44.680 --> 1:45:49.080 there's like a faltering caribou herd. Dollsheet numbers get really depressed, 1:45:49.080 --> 1:45:51.480 and he would go in and do this heavy duty wolfwork. 1:45:51.600 --> 1:45:57.120 But in the book he's got some fascinating observations about um, 1:45:57.200 --> 1:46:01.240 he's doing much of his work but dog teams, so 1:46:01.400 --> 1:46:06.639 he catches wolves now then, and his findings about how, like, 1:46:06.720 --> 1:46:10.760 what you can actually get done with a wolf, what 1:46:10.920 --> 1:46:13.599 happens when he breeds a wolf with whatever he breeds 1:46:13.640 --> 1:46:17.000 a wolf of the Mala mute, what the attributes of 1:46:17.040 --> 1:46:20.439 that generation is, what the attributes of the next generation is. 1:46:20.920 --> 1:46:25.560 The difficulty that he encountered. He basically got you cannot 1:46:27.080 --> 1:46:30.240 take a wolf, like, in his view, you cannot take 1:46:30.280 --> 1:46:32.920 a pure wolf. There's nothing you will do that will 1:46:32.960 --> 1:46:35.479 ever make that a predictable pet. A wolf is a 1:46:35.479 --> 1:46:38.080 wild animal. He's like, you can't do it. No, A 1:46:38.120 --> 1:46:41.040 dog has been a domesticated animal for over twenty years, 1:46:41.640 --> 1:46:44.439 and it's just a it's night and day. The interesting 1:46:44.439 --> 1:46:47.200 thing about wolves and dogs in terms of gene flow 1:46:48.360 --> 1:46:51.519 is that there's there's dog danna and wolves, but not 1:46:51.560 --> 1:46:54.880 the reverse in modern days. I gotta say that, I 1:46:54.880 --> 1:46:57.160 gotta do that real slow in my head say it again. 1:46:57.800 --> 1:47:03.640 So when dog in dog populations today, there's no wolf DNA, 1:47:03.840 --> 1:47:07.840 but in wolf populations there is dog DNA. So the introgression. 1:47:08.560 --> 1:47:10.559 Understand what it's a one way it's a one way 1:47:10.600 --> 1:47:15.920 gene transfer. It's not it's not going both ways. So well, 1:47:15.960 --> 1:47:19.639 I don't understand why it happened that way. But my 1:47:19.840 --> 1:47:22.320 colleague Gregor Larson, who was one of the principles on 1:47:22.360 --> 1:47:25.960 this dog paper part again, I'm sorry, I'm struggling. Okay, 1:47:26.000 --> 1:47:30.679 So you've got you've got dogs and wolves mating, but 1:47:30.920 --> 1:47:35.519 they're not producing. The wolves are not producing. Um, they're 1:47:35.560 --> 1:47:39.719 producing mates or descendants that have dog DNA in them, 1:47:39.960 --> 1:47:42.479 but the dogs are not producing viable offspring from the 1:47:42.520 --> 1:47:49.640 wolf mating kind of more. Yeah, yeah, um, well, I 1:47:49.680 --> 1:47:53.000 mean it's not entirely clear why that is, because oftentimes, 1:47:53.040 --> 1:47:55.080 when you've got two species that are kind of on 1:47:55.160 --> 1:47:59.200 the edge of biological compatibility, they can produce viable offspring. 1:48:00.120 --> 1:48:05.360 So humans and neandertal has produced viable offspring. But we 1:48:05.439 --> 1:48:07.559 know that today only because we all have some amount 1:48:08.240 --> 1:48:15.800 I have less than normal. Okay, about that we think 1:48:15.800 --> 1:48:25.479 about this genetically your behaviorally, I think Joe Rogan's is 1:48:25.520 --> 1:48:30.599 extraordinarily So I was thinking about the whole twenty three 1:48:30.600 --> 1:48:34.640 and me during our earlier conversation because it's like I 1:48:34.680 --> 1:48:39.840 want like the oral history versus what you draw the 1:48:39.840 --> 1:48:42.599 conclusions you come to from looking at like a twenty 1:48:42.680 --> 1:48:45.800 three and me report versus the oral history that you've 1:48:45.800 --> 1:48:48.640 been subject to your entire life. I think it is 1:48:48.680 --> 1:48:51.120 like an interesting headspace to be in and listen to 1:48:51.120 --> 1:48:54.760 this podcast. Right, it's like, well, I my family has 1:48:54.800 --> 1:48:57.800 done this. And then it's like, oh, but we know 1:48:57.840 --> 1:49:04.160 what happened. One YI took it no very lavian they were. 1:49:04.760 --> 1:49:10.200 They were lying. Yeah, but I mean genetics is genetics 1:49:10.200 --> 1:49:14.320 and identity is not right. Uh, and so whatever they 1:49:14.400 --> 1:49:17.439 told you about your your people, it was probably the 1:49:17.479 --> 1:49:20.160 true story in a cultural sense. Right, this is who 1:49:20.200 --> 1:49:22.160 we are, this is who we become, this is who 1:49:22.160 --> 1:49:25.280 we were. Uh, these are your ancestors. Um, what the 1:49:25.320 --> 1:49:29.599 genetics is telling you about is sort of the deeper past. Uh, 1:49:29.600 --> 1:49:33.920 and the other populations that your relatives and ancestors have 1:49:34.000 --> 1:49:37.000 sort of interacted with. The stories didn't get woven into 1:49:37.000 --> 1:49:39.400 the narrative. Yeah, yeah, because you know, the narrative is 1:49:39.400 --> 1:49:42.720 a cultural narrative. The narratives not a genetic area. I mean, 1:49:42.720 --> 1:49:45.439 if you're picture this is way off dogs. But if 1:49:45.439 --> 1:49:48.720 you're adopted into say, I'll say this let's say you're 1:49:48.720 --> 1:49:52.080 adopted into an Italian family, you know, and that's you identify, 1:49:52.200 --> 1:49:54.040 and of course, and what one day you'd be like 1:49:54.680 --> 1:50:02.200 becausel was all wasted time. Yeah, um, all right, so 1:50:02.200 --> 1:50:03.800 you want to go back to the dogs. Yeah, I 1:50:03.840 --> 1:50:06.519 think we should get back. And dogs and wolves became 1:50:06.560 --> 1:50:12.720 two very different things ten thousand years ago. Yeah, and 1:50:12.840 --> 1:50:15.160 I suspect. Okay, So let's think about the context in 1:50:15.200 --> 1:50:18.320 which this is happening. This is the glacial period. It's 1:50:18.320 --> 1:50:22.320 probably happening during what's known as the Last Glacial Maximum. 1:50:22.360 --> 1:50:26.200 That's about a three four thousand year window during this 1:50:26.280 --> 1:50:29.320 last glacial period when times were really tough. It was 1:50:29.360 --> 1:50:33.200 really cold, it was really harsh, very severe conditions. And 1:50:33.280 --> 1:50:37.000 you've got isolated human populations living somewhere in northeast Asia. 1:50:37.800 --> 1:50:39.559 We know they're isolated because we can see it in 1:50:39.560 --> 1:50:42.080 the ancient DNA. We know we have new lineages that 1:50:42.080 --> 1:50:46.160 are emerging. Wolves are living in that same part of 1:50:46.200 --> 1:50:50.360 the world, and they're just as um, they weren't just 1:50:50.400 --> 1:50:53.679 as much trouble. Right, it's cold, it's harsh, there's probably 1:50:53.720 --> 1:50:56.639 not a lot of game running around, right, and so 1:50:56.760 --> 1:50:58.599 they're you know, sticking their noses up in the air 1:50:58.640 --> 1:51:02.800 and they're smelling stuff, right, they're smelling food, and they're 1:51:02.840 --> 1:51:07.120 kind of creeping around these, um, these camps, and at 1:51:07.160 --> 1:51:10.840 some point, you know, somebody's throwing them meat or maybe 1:51:10.880 --> 1:51:12.960 they're just kind of moving in after the humans leave 1:51:13.080 --> 1:51:14.960 and kind of knowing on the bones that are left 1:51:14.960 --> 1:51:18.800 behind on the camp. And over time they start to 1:51:18.840 --> 1:51:22.880 become commence als. Basically they're hanging around with one another, um. 1:51:23.080 --> 1:51:25.720 And and it is a process. It's not an event, right, 1:51:25.760 --> 1:51:27.479 you don't just sort of turn a wolf into a 1:51:27.560 --> 1:51:32.400 dog in a day. Um. It's a long drawn out process. 1:51:32.479 --> 1:51:34.920 And these you know, and they're sort of they're finding 1:51:34.920 --> 1:51:38.720 themselves together kind of isolated on this landscape, and in 1:51:38.760 --> 1:51:44.280 that long term process, they're understanding that they're not necessarily 1:51:45.040 --> 1:51:48.520 i mean, in principle their predator, their competitors as predators, 1:51:48.960 --> 1:51:51.800 right because in principle people are hunting meat. They're hunting 1:51:51.840 --> 1:51:55.160 meat too. But they found a way to get along, uh, 1:51:55.320 --> 1:51:57.559 and they found a way to sort of help one another. 1:51:58.160 --> 1:52:00.400 And so the dogs, you know, start to aid in 1:52:00.479 --> 1:52:03.280 the hunting as they become dogs, right, as they're kept 1:52:03.360 --> 1:52:05.880 by the people, they're fed by the people, they're raised 1:52:05.920 --> 1:52:08.519 by the people. They get a they get habituated to 1:52:08.720 --> 1:52:12.680 the people. There's a it might maybe you think it's fanciful, 1:52:13.080 --> 1:52:16.000 but I've even read I don't know. It's like it's 1:52:16.040 --> 1:52:21.720 someone postulating what might have been the reciprocity that like 1:52:21.760 --> 1:52:25.920 a early warning system. Oh absolutely, absolutely, like how they 1:52:25.960 --> 1:52:29.439 just go ballistic when something strange is happening, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No. 1:52:29.640 --> 1:52:31.360 That's why I say they're part of the cultural repertoire. 1:52:31.360 --> 1:52:33.320 They were a tool. They were a tool for people, 1:52:34.040 --> 1:52:37.679 especially if you're on a vast unknown landscape, like say 1:52:37.720 --> 1:52:40.920 the America's right, you're making that left turn, you've gotten 1:52:40.960 --> 1:52:44.080 around the continental ice sheets, you're spreading out into the 1:52:44.160 --> 1:52:47.040 northern hemisphere. You have no idea what's around the corner, 1:52:47.040 --> 1:52:50.360 and you have no idea what's going to feed you, 1:52:51.400 --> 1:52:54.320 hurt you, try and kill you. Right, if you've got 1:52:54.320 --> 1:52:56.320 a dog with you, that's a pretty good thing. And 1:52:56.360 --> 1:52:58.760 that's that's what came out of this this work that 1:52:58.800 --> 1:53:03.200 we just published. Was I was in Oxford a year 1:53:03.280 --> 1:53:06.679 or two ago, and I was talking to Gregor Larson, 1:53:06.760 --> 1:53:09.560 my colleague who works on ancient dogs doing the genetics, 1:53:10.160 --> 1:53:14.360 and I said to him, you know, you're beers over beers, right, No, No, 1:53:14.560 --> 1:53:16.639 that made a good story. But the beers actually came 1:53:16.720 --> 1:53:21.280 after we figured all this out. This was not some 1:53:21.360 --> 1:53:32.479 sort of drunken old whol over just beer, grainbelt beer. Yeah, 1:53:32.560 --> 1:53:34.640 this is not an ad for it. We didn't. We 1:53:34.680 --> 1:53:40.880 start out this conversation about boy hit me. I was, 1:53:42.400 --> 1:53:44.680 you guys were real casual in this person's office, and 1:53:44.760 --> 1:53:48.240 we were. We were casually in the office. I was 1:53:48.280 --> 1:53:50.559 there talking shop. I was talking shop. I had gone 1:53:50.560 --> 1:53:52.840 there to give a series of lectures to Oxford, and 1:53:53.400 --> 1:53:56.439 I said, you know, Gregor, your dog dates look a 1:53:56.439 --> 1:54:02.200 lot like our people dates, and explain that. Okay, so 1:54:02.240 --> 1:54:05.920 we know from the age. Okay, do you want to 1:54:06.600 --> 1:54:08.600 because other people might be listening, Steve, I think it 1:54:11.840 --> 1:54:18.320 cal al right. Here here's how it works, bense Um. 1:54:18.360 --> 1:54:22.040 So human lineages, Um, we were just talking about this. 1:54:22.080 --> 1:54:25.120 They split over time, so groups become isolated. They you know, 1:54:25.240 --> 1:54:27.639 one group goes and stays in the northeast Siberia, another 1:54:27.680 --> 1:54:30.360 group goes into the America's and then in the Americas, 1:54:30.439 --> 1:54:32.920 some of them stay north, others go south. And so 1:54:32.960 --> 1:54:35.080 we see this in the genetic record. We see different 1:54:35.720 --> 1:54:39.920 um lineages happle groups. You can call them different names, 1:54:39.960 --> 1:54:43.920 but lineages works. And these are groups that are historically 1:54:43.920 --> 1:54:48.960 related to one another, but over time they've become separated. Okay, 1:54:49.000 --> 1:54:52.200 So we have a record of when those sort of 1:54:52.240 --> 1:54:57.640 lineages emerge. So we know that ancestral Native Americans split 1:54:57.680 --> 1:55:00.680 off from groups that would stay in Asia sometime around 1:55:00.720 --> 1:55:04.200 twenty three thousand years ago. We know that when they 1:55:04.200 --> 1:55:08.040 get into the America's sometime around sixteen thousand or so 1:55:08.200 --> 1:55:11.320 years ago, they split off again. Some of them stay north, 1:55:11.440 --> 1:55:15.240 others go south um and then later on we see 1:55:15.280 --> 1:55:18.440 more splits as they move further and further south into 1:55:18.480 --> 1:55:21.000 the hemisphere. So we've got a record of all these 1:55:21.080 --> 1:55:24.360 kind of turnpoints along the way as people are moving 1:55:24.360 --> 1:55:28.839 into this hemisphere. And when Gregor showed me the results 1:55:28.880 --> 1:55:31.160 with the dogs, he said, well, you know, we've got 1:55:31.160 --> 1:55:34.240 a split here. We've got two lineages developing at this time. 1:55:34.560 --> 1:55:36.800 We've got a bunch of lineages developing at this time. 1:55:37.240 --> 1:55:39.080 That's when I said to him, you know, you're split 1:55:39.160 --> 1:55:42.600 times kind of look like our split times. And then 1:55:42.640 --> 1:55:45.160 there was that sort of oh why didn't I think 1:55:45.160 --> 1:55:48.680 of this before? It's called eureka moment. It wouldn't even 1:55:48.720 --> 1:55:50.840 I don't want to call it a Eureka moment because 1:55:50.840 --> 1:55:53.240 that implies it was a really deep and profound insight. No, 1:55:53.400 --> 1:55:56.280 this was, well, of course people can come into the 1:55:56.320 --> 1:55:59.440 America's without dogs, but dogs are not going to come 1:55:59.440 --> 1:56:03.440 into the America because without people. So of course the dog, 1:56:04.320 --> 1:56:08.080 the dog history is gonna mimic and match and coincide 1:56:08.120 --> 1:56:11.320 with human history. Now, whether they came in with the 1:56:11.400 --> 1:56:13.760 very first people was, you know, kind of a different issue, 1:56:14.040 --> 1:56:16.560 but clearly they must have come with people, so at 1:56:16.600 --> 1:56:21.880 some point their histories aligned. And so when we so 1:56:21.960 --> 1:56:24.040 I then went to the white board, he said, okay, 1:56:24.040 --> 1:56:25.640 well let's kind of try and figure this out. So 1:56:25.680 --> 1:56:29.880 I drew Siberia, com Chaca Peninsula, I drew Alaska, and 1:56:29.920 --> 1:56:32.560 I said, okay, here's where we have groups splitting off 1:56:32.600 --> 1:56:34.720 at different times. Here's where they are at this point, 1:56:34.760 --> 1:56:36.840 here's where they are at that point. And then they 1:56:36.840 --> 1:56:39.840 put the dog story on, and you had a beer 1:56:39.840 --> 1:56:44.400 in your hand while you were well. Then we went 1:56:44.440 --> 1:56:48.280 to the bar afterwards and congratulated ourselves having figured this out. 1:56:48.800 --> 1:56:51.560 So yeah, yeah, that's uh. And it was just so 1:56:51.600 --> 1:56:55.040 obvious that well, of course it had to happen this. Okay, 1:56:55.320 --> 1:57:01.560 here's a couple of questions for did this happened again, 1:57:02.440 --> 1:57:04.440 Did the same thing that we're talking about happening in 1:57:04.480 --> 1:57:12.480 Siberia with dogs happened in other places completely unrelated? Or 1:57:12.480 --> 1:57:15.480 did that then? Like that, did the dog then sort 1:57:15.480 --> 1:57:18.640 of like backfill along the path that humans have been 1:57:18.680 --> 1:57:22.440 taken since the African diaspora? Right? So, um, dogs go 1:57:22.520 --> 1:57:26.440 both directions, right, So they're going to be domesticated, and 1:57:26.640 --> 1:57:28.480 some of them are heading east, some of them are 1:57:28.480 --> 1:57:32.160 heading into the America's others presumably went west with people. 1:57:32.280 --> 1:57:34.680 We know that populations that are in this part of 1:57:34.720 --> 1:57:37.160 northeast Asia at the end of the ice age, after 1:57:37.160 --> 1:57:40.080 the last glacial maximum, they're moving all over the Eurasian 1:57:40.120 --> 1:57:43.000 But that was it's possible that there was a singular 1:57:43.040 --> 1:57:46.240 domestication event. Well, now that's controversial, and you'll have to 1:57:46.280 --> 1:57:49.200 get a dog person on here to defend either the 1:57:49.400 --> 1:57:53.040 single origin point or the multiple origin point, because I 1:57:53.080 --> 1:57:56.360 don't do dogs. If it's multiple, how many how like 1:57:56.480 --> 1:57:59.280 what's like a fashionable multiple? Has that happened twice or 1:57:59.400 --> 1:58:02.560 ten times? Um? I think the argument is is that 1:58:02.680 --> 1:58:05.080 there might have been sort of three centers of domestication. 1:58:05.120 --> 1:58:07.600 But again, it's not my thing, and this dog group 1:58:07.760 --> 1:58:12.160 is my second question. Um, I know you're not a 1:58:12.200 --> 1:58:16.680 dog guy, but you probably know this. This These dogs 1:58:16.680 --> 1:58:23.080 are they need they're adding like they're adding as people 1:58:23.120 --> 1:58:25.320 moving to new areas. No doubt there has to be 1:58:25.440 --> 1:58:29.400 some crossbreeding occurring where they're they're bumping into like all 1:58:29.400 --> 1:58:32.320 of a sudden, you come here and the Mexican gray wolf. 1:58:32.400 --> 1:58:34.280 Let's say, let's say the Mexican gray wolf was a thing, 1:58:34.320 --> 1:58:38.080 then maybe it wasn't um at some point their dogs 1:58:38.320 --> 1:58:41.320 pick that up a little bit, right, pick it up 1:58:41.360 --> 1:58:43.800 to some degree. Maybe I don't. I don't know that 1:58:43.840 --> 1:58:46.320 we have enough resolution of the dog genetic record to 1:58:46.440 --> 1:58:49.080 say that. What I do know, and this is, you know, 1:58:49.120 --> 1:58:51.160 sort of an answer to a different part of the 1:58:51.200 --> 1:58:53.480 question that you were asking, is that this is not 1:58:53.560 --> 1:58:55.760 the first time it's happened. We know that when people 1:58:55.800 --> 1:58:58.600 move across the Far North around five thousand years ago, 1:58:58.680 --> 1:59:00.840 they're taking dogs with him as well. And that's a 1:59:00.880 --> 1:59:05.240 completely separate event where people are tracking across the landscape 1:59:05.240 --> 1:59:11.200 bringing their dogs with them, but but possibly dogs that 1:59:11.720 --> 1:59:15.560 had been in a sort of rolling lineage with these 1:59:15.560 --> 1:59:18.080 early dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and think about it, 1:59:18.160 --> 1:59:19.640 do you think of them as a technology? Was like 1:59:19.640 --> 1:59:23.120 a technology that's been transferred. Well, and and let's let's 1:59:23.320 --> 1:59:25.800 kind of riff on that transfer notion. You know, when 1:59:25.800 --> 1:59:28.440 you've got a dog and you see other people with 1:59:28.480 --> 1:59:30.480 their dogs, your dog is gonna go running over there, 1:59:31.520 --> 1:59:34.440 unless it's on a leash, and it's gonna go hanging 1:59:34.480 --> 1:59:36.640 out with them for a while and may or may 1:59:36.640 --> 1:59:39.160 not come back. So I suspect when you know, sort 1:59:39.200 --> 1:59:42.360 of groups were um, you know, encountering one another after 1:59:42.400 --> 1:59:44.960 sort of long separations, I suspect the dogs were probably 1:59:45.000 --> 1:59:49.520 moving back and forth between groups um as well. Um, 1:59:49.560 --> 1:59:53.160 but yeah, they were part of the They were part 1:59:53.200 --> 1:59:55.760 of the colonization process. They were part of the dispersal 1:59:55.800 --> 1:59:59.520 process into the Americas and probably served, you know, really 1:59:59.520 --> 2:00:02.720 important rolls because think about it, if you're coming into 2:00:02.760 --> 2:00:06.240 a completely unknown landscape, not a bad idea to have 2:00:06.280 --> 2:00:09.960 a dog with you. What's the oldest dog bone that's 2:00:09.960 --> 2:00:13.560 been found and what's now the lower forty eight it's 2:00:13.560 --> 2:00:16.360 around ten thousand years old from a couple of sites 2:00:16.400 --> 2:00:18.640 in Illinois. And what can they tell about those? What 2:00:18.680 --> 2:00:21.360 they look like? How big were they? Oh? Gosh, you'd 2:00:21.360 --> 2:00:23.200 have to ask a dog person. But I don't think 2:00:23.200 --> 2:00:27.040 they were terribly large. Don't think big wolves. Yeah, the 2:00:27.160 --> 2:00:31.080 sites are called Coster KOs t e R. And Still 2:00:31.160 --> 2:00:33.280 Well are the sites that have produced these sort of 2:00:33.280 --> 2:00:35.640 ten thousand year old dogs. Had the dogs been butchered 2:00:35.800 --> 2:00:40.240 or just dead again, you'd have to ask a person 2:00:40.440 --> 2:00:42.400 who's a dog. You gotta tell us a good dog person. 2:00:42.600 --> 2:00:46.360 I gave you a name, Gregor Larson and Angela Perry. 2:00:48.400 --> 2:00:51.520 Have you spoken this person? No, not yet, but they 2:00:51.520 --> 2:00:54.680 were on my list. They're on your list? Yeah? No, Um, 2:00:54.760 --> 2:00:58.560 dogs were food too. Look, times get tough, you know, Sorry, 2:00:58.600 --> 2:01:02.360 you've been a really good dog. But you know it's 2:01:02.360 --> 2:01:04.840 either you or me. Oh it's the Swiss Army knife 2:01:04.920 --> 2:01:11.920 of companions, you know. I mean there's a lot exactly 2:01:12.640 --> 2:01:16.960 what criticisms their objections have there been to your conclusion 2:01:17.000 --> 2:01:21.440 about this? Well, the um the argument. So there were 2:01:21.440 --> 2:01:24.280 two pieces to that that piece we just published. One 2:01:24.320 --> 2:01:29.240 was the sort of um kind of coinciding histories, uh, 2:01:29.240 --> 2:01:32.040 and that part I think seems fairly robust and sound. 2:01:32.480 --> 2:01:34.840 The other thing was, though that we drew the conclusion 2:01:35.880 --> 2:01:39.440 that domestication took place in northeast Asia rather than sort 2:01:39.480 --> 2:01:42.400 of further west. And I know some of the dog 2:01:42.760 --> 2:01:47.200 genetic folks, um pushed back on that a bit because 2:01:47.280 --> 2:01:49.760 they think domestication Again, this gets to the issue of 2:01:49.800 --> 2:01:51.840 you know, was there a single center of dog domestication 2:01:51.960 --> 2:01:55.480 or multiple Uh that's it's unresolved. But we offered that 2:01:55.560 --> 2:01:58.520 hypothesis in the paper that we think you know, they 2:01:58.520 --> 2:02:01.920 were domesticated in northeast Asian went both ways east and west. 2:02:03.560 --> 2:02:08.640 Good stuff, man, Oh, it's fantastic. The Spencer brought up, 2:02:09.240 --> 2:02:12.960 uh the college days, which a long long time ago now, 2:02:13.600 --> 2:02:17.600 and um, you know, you always you gotta mix of 2:02:17.640 --> 2:02:19.560 people who want to be in class and you gotta 2:02:19.600 --> 2:02:22.160 mix people who gotta be in class in order to 2:02:22.240 --> 2:02:25.760 check that box on their requirement list. And you got 2:02:25.800 --> 2:02:29.280 some people that ran in both both crowds depending on 2:02:29.320 --> 2:02:33.320 the class. Yeah. Oh yeah for sure. Uh. I can't 2:02:33.320 --> 2:02:37.680 help but think. I'm like, what's your take, Dr Meltzer, Like, 2:02:38.200 --> 2:02:40.880 how many of your students are going? You know, I 2:02:41.040 --> 2:02:44.920 listen to the Mediator podcast to get away from Dr Meltzer. 2:02:47.160 --> 2:02:51.640 Damn he followed me here. Um he stole that from 2:02:51.640 --> 2:02:57.720 the lecture. Look, you know today's today's college students. Um, 2:02:58.000 --> 2:02:59.640 I think it's a tough time to be in college. 2:03:00.560 --> 2:03:04.120 Just I mean, we have pemic, pandemic, the economic situation, 2:03:04.360 --> 2:03:06.200 you know what it, the likelihoods of jobs, all that 2:03:06.240 --> 2:03:09.960 good stuff, right, Um, And I know that what I 2:03:10.040 --> 2:03:15.000 do is not terribly useful. Just because it's not useful 2:03:15.080 --> 2:03:19.280 doesn't mean it's meaningless and so useful in the nuts 2:03:19.280 --> 2:03:21.000 and bolts kind of like, yeah, yeah, what are you 2:03:21.000 --> 2:03:22.880 gonna do? You're gonna make yourself a Clovis point and 2:03:22.920 --> 2:03:26.520 go out and survive. I don't think so. Um, maybe 2:03:26.520 --> 2:03:28.800 you could, Steve, but I couldn't. The line I got. 2:03:29.080 --> 2:03:33.240 I was a history anthropology major, and the line I 2:03:33.280 --> 2:03:37.040 got was are you gonna open a history store? Yeah? 2:03:37.040 --> 2:03:41.280 There you go, and you could. So my my job 2:03:41.760 --> 2:03:45.360 is to say, Okay, I know you're not coming in 2:03:45.440 --> 2:03:50.120 here necessarily because you're interested in what I do, but 2:03:50.480 --> 2:03:54.520 I will do my best to make it interesting for you. 2:03:55.760 --> 2:03:57.760 I will do my best to help you think about 2:03:57.800 --> 2:04:01.320 things that you otherwise wouldn't think about, and think about 2:04:01.360 --> 2:04:03.839 them in critical ways, and try and sort of transport 2:04:03.920 --> 2:04:08.440 yourself out of your business school environment. Right, let's take 2:04:08.480 --> 2:04:11.080 you back fifteen thousand years and think about what it's 2:04:11.080 --> 2:04:14.600 like to be on a landscape where you haven't seen 2:04:14.640 --> 2:04:17.879 any smoke on the horizon, you haven't seen any freshly 2:04:17.960 --> 2:04:21.120 killed animals, you haven't seen any other humans in a 2:04:21.200 --> 2:04:23.760 very long time, and you realize, wait a minute, I'm 2:04:23.760 --> 2:04:28.240 all alone here. But hey, the living looks pretty good here. 2:04:28.280 --> 2:04:30.640 How do I do that? How do I how do 2:04:30.720 --> 2:04:33.640 I make a living on this landscape? Right? So I 2:04:33.720 --> 2:04:37.280 try and and give people the sense of what it 2:04:37.320 --> 2:04:41.000 would have been like to come into a completely new world, 2:04:41.200 --> 2:04:43.520 not a new world in the European sense of well, 2:04:43.560 --> 2:04:45.800 you know, we finished trashing the old world, now we're 2:04:45.800 --> 2:04:47.720 going to go to the new world. This this truly 2:04:47.840 --> 2:04:50.440 was a new world back then, and what would that 2:04:50.520 --> 2:04:53.720 have been like? So yeah, I get it that they're 2:04:53.760 --> 2:04:56.200 not necessarily coming in because they really want to learn 2:04:56.200 --> 2:04:59.680 about archaeology, um, but I think they'll take something away 2:04:59.680 --> 2:05:02.400 from it, or at least I hope they do. I 2:05:02.600 --> 2:05:05.760 double minored in college. I got a minor and anthropology 2:05:05.800 --> 2:05:08.440 and a minor and health. And what I told people 2:05:08.760 --> 2:05:11.480 when I did this was that I got the minor 2:05:11.560 --> 2:05:14.280 and health because I also had a biology major, and 2:05:14.360 --> 2:05:16.520 so I could go into the midfield. If I wanted 2:05:16.560 --> 2:05:18.920 that the health minor would help me. The reality was 2:05:19.480 --> 2:05:21.920 that I was interested in anthropology, but I was a 2:05:21.920 --> 2:05:25.000 C student there. So if I also minored in health, 2:05:25.120 --> 2:05:27.440 I was an A student there and so I could 2:05:27.560 --> 2:05:30.040 carry my g p A. The anthropology was to entertain me. 2:05:30.520 --> 2:05:33.800 The health was just to like help with my resume. 2:05:34.800 --> 2:05:40.720 So anthropology is resume building, like the health. That's why 2:05:40.800 --> 2:05:44.440 we picked him off. He tanked the interview that I 2:05:44.440 --> 2:05:51.040 got looking at him. Yeah, classes like yours, you got 2:05:51.120 --> 2:05:55.280 to see an anthropologist. Classes like yours kept me wildly entertained. 2:05:55.680 --> 2:05:57.840 Favorite stuff. Yeah, I like it. I know they lean 2:05:57.920 --> 2:05:59.320 on you a little bit over there and in the 2:05:59.400 --> 2:06:02.320 Ivory Tower, but uh, I like it that you take 2:06:02.360 --> 2:06:05.040 the time to come explain your work to people. Well, 2:06:05.400 --> 2:06:11.919 I mean, look, the greater public um genuinely is interested 2:06:11.960 --> 2:06:14.960 in what we do. They're not necessarily, you know, going 2:06:15.000 --> 2:06:17.240 to be taking a lot of classes and everything like that. 2:06:17.280 --> 2:06:21.240 But you know, people can find interest in things from 2:06:21.280 --> 2:06:25.160 the ancient past and do uh. And because a lot 2:06:25.200 --> 2:06:29.080 of archaeological research is supported by the greater public, it's 2:06:29.080 --> 2:06:32.600 it's only fair that we give back. Uh. So I 2:06:32.600 --> 2:06:35.520 don't like to just publish for my colleagues. I like 2:06:35.640 --> 2:06:39.680 to publish for a broader audience so that I can 2:06:39.720 --> 2:06:42.960 give back. So it's part of my responsibility as somebody 2:06:43.000 --> 2:06:45.880 who has spent his life in an Ivory tower, and 2:06:45.960 --> 2:06:48.600 I gotta say, Evory towers are awfully nice. Um. But 2:06:48.640 --> 2:06:51.440 it's also nice to get out once in a while, um, 2:06:51.560 --> 2:06:55.240 and to be able to share what I've learned because fundamentally, 2:06:55.360 --> 2:06:57.680 you know, it's the thing that interests me and I 2:06:57.760 --> 2:06:59.880 just think, well, it's going to interest others as well. 2:07:00.600 --> 2:07:05.200 Be fantastic. Okay, So uh, okay, how do they find 2:07:05.320 --> 2:07:08.960 if you want to see Mountaineer? What form is it? Like? 2:07:09.000 --> 2:07:11.560 How do they find it? Well, it's just on the 2:07:11.600 --> 2:07:13.960 south edge of town of Gunnison and you can't get 2:07:14.400 --> 2:07:22.880 the site the book starting on June. Okay, so this 2:07:22.960 --> 2:07:25.920 is my opportunity to Yeah, okay, if you were a 2:07:25.920 --> 2:07:30.200 big im I'm venturing you're not a big Instagram guy. 2:07:30.480 --> 2:07:32.840 Well you know. Okay, So I have to apologize to 2:07:32.960 --> 2:07:36.760 all the people who listened to the podcast the last 2:07:36.760 --> 2:07:38.680 time because you asked me at the very end, are 2:07:38.720 --> 2:07:41.839 you on Twitter? Are you on Instagram? And I admitted 2:07:41.880 --> 2:07:43.680 that I was on Instagram. What I didn't tell you 2:07:43.800 --> 2:07:47.800 was I only had six followers and they were my kids. 2:07:47.920 --> 2:07:49.880 And the only reason I was on Instagram was to 2:07:49.880 --> 2:07:51.640 send them pictures of where I was in the world 2:07:51.640 --> 2:07:55.720 at any given time. And I got literally almost three 2:07:56.160 --> 2:08:00.120 requests to join me on Instagram. Deny them all. I 2:08:00.120 --> 2:08:03.760 I just again, I apologize to everybody can listen, but 2:08:04.080 --> 2:08:08.040 I don't. I don't publish anything of interest on Instagram, 2:08:08.080 --> 2:08:11.400 So speak to them. Uh, this is your It's an 2:08:11.400 --> 2:08:16.240 elaborate Instagram post called a book. It's like if you 2:08:16.240 --> 2:08:18.200 could pack a whole lot of pictures and a whole 2:08:18.200 --> 2:08:20.960 lot of texts a single Instagram post, it would be 2:08:20.960 --> 2:08:22.680 called and bundle it as a book. It would be 2:08:22.680 --> 2:08:26.080 called The Mountaineer Site and it will be out in 2:08:26.160 --> 2:08:32.000 June from the University of Colorad. It's called the Mountaineer Site. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, 2:08:32.080 --> 2:08:35.000 I'm confirming with Karan. It's got a subtitle to um, 2:08:35.080 --> 2:08:38.000 what's the subtitle? I don't know. We're checking, but it's 2:08:38.000 --> 2:08:39.880 like it's a book. Yeah, oh yeah, it's a book. 2:08:39.960 --> 2:08:45.640 It's a book. Um. And and then color photos No, sorry, 2:08:45.680 --> 2:08:48.040 but I'll tell you. The cover photo is gorgeous. The 2:08:48.040 --> 2:08:51.320 cover photo was taken by my colleague, uh, Steve Emsley 2:08:51.360 --> 2:08:53.680 of the Mountain in Winter. Oh here we go. Okay, 2:08:53.720 --> 2:08:58.400 so what's the subtitle? Hard to read on my website, 2:09:00.720 --> 2:09:03.000 it's something like a Fulesome Winter Camp in the Rockies 2:09:03.080 --> 2:09:08.520 or the Mountaineer site a Fulesome Winter Camp in the Rockies. 2:09:08.680 --> 2:09:11.280 Or you could learn about the Mountaineer site, which is 2:09:11.280 --> 2:09:16.120 a new site in the revised update the tenuere revised 2:09:16.200 --> 2:09:20.880 update of First People's in a New World, which is 2:09:21.160 --> 2:09:23.840 it's a compending. I don't know how you describe it's 2:09:23.880 --> 2:09:27.200 it's just like I said earlier, it's the whole damn store. 2:09:27.760 --> 2:09:30.960 It's everything I know. There's nothing left, guys to someone. Yeah, 2:09:31.000 --> 2:09:32.480 you know, I remember the old days, like the Greeks 2:09:32.520 --> 2:09:34.880 or whoever. They were into this idea called the sum 2:09:34.960 --> 2:09:37.400 of all knowledge. Like they had the idea that a 2:09:37.440 --> 2:09:43.680 person could um no everything that was known the last person. 2:09:43.720 --> 2:09:45.040 That's hard to pull off now, yeah, I know, I 2:09:45.080 --> 2:09:47.920 think good. It was the last person in the or something, 2:09:47.920 --> 2:09:50.640 the last person who knew everything, like like all knowledge 2:09:50.680 --> 2:09:54.000 all you know, mathematics, astronomy, all, yeah, I know every 2:09:54.120 --> 2:09:55.600 I know a lot of things in a very small 2:09:55.720 --> 2:09:58.080 niche and that's about the best I can and it's 2:09:58.160 --> 2:10:01.880 captured beautifully, beautifully and first people in the New World, 2:10:02.600 --> 2:10:08.320 Dr David Meltzer, I'm gonna I remembered from last last time, 2:10:08.840 --> 2:10:12.320 it was David J. Meltzer. Not to be confused with 2:10:12.360 --> 2:10:15.200 the beat poet, not to be confused with the guy 2:10:15.240 --> 2:10:17.440 that writes about wrestling, and not to be confused with 2:10:17.480 --> 2:10:19.960 the business person David Meltzer who I get all sorts 2:10:20.000 --> 2:10:24.280 of David J. Meltzer, Anthropologists, Southern Methods, Methodist Universe, Southern 2:10:24.280 --> 2:10:28.280 Methoist University SMU in Texas. That one for as great 2:10:28.320 --> 2:10:31.520 as uh your work is, and it's how smart you are. Um. 2:10:31.520 --> 2:10:33.480 I fell into this trap after the last podcast. I 2:10:33.480 --> 2:10:37.800 typed in David Meltzer books and I found a book 2:10:37.800 --> 2:10:41.320 called Mushroom Cultivation Self Guide to Mushrooms from all over 2:10:41.360 --> 2:10:44.760 the World. When I was real like, I was like this, 2:10:44.760 --> 2:10:48.640 this guy just has all my interest and then and 2:10:48.680 --> 2:10:51.600 then I was like, he's got to have a cat book, 2:10:53.920 --> 2:10:57.600 the perfect guy. Thanks for having me, honest, I really 2:10:57.600 --> 2:11:01.240 appreciate your work on mushrooms. Oh and also North Thing 2:11:01.280 --> 2:11:05.160 Bear Grease podcast. Clay Newcombe. Newcombe who's been on this 2:11:05.200 --> 2:11:08.160 show many times. Every time Clay's on the show, people 2:11:08.160 --> 2:11:10.160 are like, man, that guy ought to have his own podcast. 2:11:10.200 --> 2:11:14.160 Well he does. It's called bear Grease. It's like a 2:11:14.240 --> 2:11:21.640 it's a history podcast, history, history, folklore, culture, history done 2:11:21.640 --> 2:11:27.080 and Clay's unique style. It's investigative. Bear Grease Podcasts part 2:11:27.080 --> 2:11:37.360 of the Meat Eater podcast Network. Listen now, Thank you everybody,