1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: severely bug bitten in my case underwear listening podcast. You 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first Light, Go Farther, stay longer, 4 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: joined today by my favorite ever podcast guest. Now, I 5 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: say I throw that around, not liberally by throwing around, 6 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: but this is true. Professor David Meltzer, Who just were 7 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: you in this studio when you just did your online class? 8 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: I did? I did? He just taught an online class 9 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: in the studio prior to the recording about Clovis. Perfect timing, 10 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: wasn't it. I wish I would have been here early. Well, 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: you know when you show up late for class D. 12 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: This is the this is the price you miss. You miss, 13 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: you missed the good stuff. In fact, it was the 14 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: best lecture I ever gave you. I was rolling and 15 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: were you. I'm looking out the window thinking where Steve. 16 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: He's supposed to be here. You were bringing it. Um, 17 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: we have a guy, uh engineer accepted our challenge. We 18 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: wanted to get a a light Let me back up. 19 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: A body mine years ago was getting paid to go 20 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: watch commercials, and beer commercials in particular, and they would 21 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: pay him to watch beer commercials, and he had a dial, 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: and the more he liked the beer commercial, he turned 23 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: his dial up. A whole bunch of guys watching beer 24 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: commercials and they dial what parts they have, you know, 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: whether they're into it or not. And I wanted to 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: get one of those for this room. And an electrical 27 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: engineer is making this one that has five dials. Mechanical 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: engineer has five dials. And as someone's talking what you 29 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: don't need, you don't know where it's coming from. But 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: I could like turn mine down and the light in 31 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: the middle with dim and that would know that that 32 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: there's fading interest. I would right now if I had 33 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: that here, right now, I would turn mine on full 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: blast and I wouldn't catch it. Could already be on 35 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: full blast. When I re listened to the last episode 36 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: you were on, David Steve introduced you the same way, 37 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: said you're his favorite guest. So what he means it, 38 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: I think he means it. I told him earlier that 39 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: he was he used to be. Uh. We thought that 40 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: he his his bridges were too big for us, and 41 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: so we would go after. We would target his students 42 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: and then got the man himself. And what was the 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: analogy he made that. Um, it's like if we were 44 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: trying to get John Lennon on the show and got 45 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: stuck with a ringo. We're not going to name names 46 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: of the students, who, incidentally, is how I get some 47 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: of my speaking gigs. So that was good. The next 48 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: time you bump into Steve, say hi, it doesn't return 49 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: to emails that I have, but we still like them 50 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: being ringos. That still bad though? Uh? Is he the one? 51 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: There's still a beat? Are any of them left? And ringo? Sure? 52 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: Yeah huh? Also joined by, of course, filled the engineer, 53 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: crns here, Spencer's here, Cal's here. Um, so that that's 54 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: for Yanni's dad. The High Life Man series of beer 55 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: commercials will go down in history has the best beer commercials. 56 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: We'll just say that before we move on. You might 57 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,679 Speaker 1: be a Highlife Man? Is that old one? Oh? They're 58 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: not that old. But they're just like nostalgic and hilarious 59 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: and well written. But but but but was the beer 60 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: any good? I mean, isn't That doesn't matter when it 61 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: comes to beer commercials. It's not They're not tying it 62 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: to the taste of the beer I used to drink. Well, 63 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to explain what beer I used to 64 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: drink and why they want you to associate with the product. Yeah, 65 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: haven't be representative of you, right, And if the first 66 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: taste is no good and you spit it out, they've 67 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: lost the war. Well, mg D for a long time, 68 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: you would look in your bottle. So if you look 69 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: through your bottle to the label on the other side, 70 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: it would be people partying. There's like pictures of people partying. 71 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: So I'd like to drink that because I could look 72 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: in there and I feel like I was partying that. 73 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: Yeah that one day look in there and it's a 74 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: basketball hoop. Yeah, never ordered that stuff. We got a 75 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: quick clarification. So, uh, I'm gonna call them are good friends. 76 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: At Murdocks If you don't have murdocks around, Murdocks is 77 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: like a farming ranch. I think it's pretty regional, right, 78 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: It's a farm and ranch supply place. I was observing 79 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: how I was in at Murdocks buying some stuff. I'll 80 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: say what I was buying. I was buying a syringe 81 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: from the livestock, the cattle syringe stuff, and uh, and 82 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: noticed that you could round up your donation and I 83 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: noticed it was for the it said the Humane Society 84 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: on it, and I thought that was weird because the 85 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: Humane Society, as we all know, it's kind of like 86 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: the leading one of the leading anti hunting organizations out there, 87 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: and they're always filing, you know, every time there's a 88 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: suit file that you always see that they're like a 89 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: signator to the suit. But when I was screwed up 90 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: about we're kind of each a little bit wrong because 91 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: I was there's there's an organization called the Humane Society 92 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: of the United States, and they're the ones that's always 93 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: they're always sueing everybody, like they're suing to stop that, 94 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: you know, they don't want you to be able to 95 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: fish in the local pond or whatever to be them 96 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: suing um. Not to be confused like Humane Society is 97 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: more generally around animal shelters. So anyways, we talked about 98 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: this and then Kran has some back and forth with 99 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,559 Speaker 1: Murdoch's the store and they're they're changing their thing around 100 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: and apparently we're the first people to bring that up. 101 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: No affiliation, it's local animal shelters, Yeah, exactly, they're raising 102 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: up money. So as Krann brought in an exam don't 103 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: know why she brought this example if your purchase was 104 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: ten dollars and sixty two cents just what I don't know, 105 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: Like Curran pointed out that you would be donating thirty 106 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: eight cents if you round it up. That's great. It's 107 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: a great example because I think a lot of people 108 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: can't picture it right. And then you put it in 109 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: those concrete terms, and then you're like, oh, yeah, right, yeah, 110 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: I mean you you you put your I don't know, liquorice, 111 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: and because you've always got those weird huge like some 112 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: you know, dog dog bones or something, and your purchases 113 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: ten sixty two and when you're about to make your 114 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: purchase on the pin pad, it'll say, would you like 115 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: to round to the nearest dollar? And this is the charity, 116 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: this is the organization we donate to. It's not going 117 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: to say animal shelters. I feel like that that think 118 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: about it like this a long time ago. If your 119 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: name was Richard, what would be your nickname Dick? Over 120 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: the years though, uh the name Dick parallel path with 121 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: another use of the word. Now Richards go by Rick. Oh. 122 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: I feel like humane, like like I feel like this 123 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: has happened with the Humane society question it's gonna be 124 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: a while until girls start being named Karen again. I 125 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: feel like, oh that that name has been sullied. Uh 126 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: and talking about wolves are good friend, Jim Halflfinger wrote 127 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: in Um, of course, Jim is a wildlife expert and 128 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: policy guy and biology guy down in Arizona. The hell's 129 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: this official title? He's an academic. I was pointing out, 130 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: this is a correction. I was saying that the Mexican 131 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: gray wolf had no geographical separation from other wolves, and 132 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: they all just bled into each other. That's my understanding, right, 133 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: there's no it would be like the only we to 134 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: put in terms of turkeys real quick. So we have 135 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: these five varieties of subspecies of turkeys, and um, we 136 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: talked about the Osceola, which the osceolil turkey is sits 137 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: kind of like south of Lake okachobe in Florida, and 138 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: then the eastern turkey is north of Lake Okachobee in Florida. 139 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: There's no fence between Osceolas and Easterns. They just just 140 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: we arbitrarily drew a line. And I was done the 141 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: impression with wolves that there was this sort of like 142 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: arbitrary line drawn where um, the Mexican wolf. You know, 143 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: we just drew a line and said, Okay, if it's 144 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: south of that, it's a Mexican wolf, it's north of that, 145 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: it's not. And heffel Finger pointed out that's in fact 146 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: not the case. And there were these very arid prey 147 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: scarce areas um areas around between Colorado and Utah Um 148 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: that did cause some genetic bear years historic genetic barriers 149 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: between different groups of wolves. And he goes on to 150 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: say that the Mexican gray wolf is the most genetically 151 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: distinct wolf subspecies in North America, and that would not 152 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: be true if they had historically blended in with other 153 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: types of wolves. Half a Finger also has this to say, this, 154 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: you'll appreciate this cow for hunters in Colorado to be 155 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: griping about funding wolf recovery, which we talked about, and 156 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: I kind of graped about it myself. Um, he thinks 157 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: it's a it's a it does a disservice to hunters. Um. 158 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: And how can we run around so proudly talking about 159 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: recovering wild turkeys, recovering deer, right, recovering all these species, 160 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: but then it comes to recovering wolves. Will will be 161 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: like I want nothing to do with that. He said, 162 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: what a pr triumph? Do that too, And if it 163 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: costs you a couple of elk tags because of wolves 164 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: eaten some elk here and there, who cares. It's like 165 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: you're if if hunters want to claim you're in the 166 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: business of recovery, you're in the business of wildlife. Um, 167 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: be true to your message. I agree with that, he 168 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: goes He goes on to say anti hunters would be 169 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: besides themselves in conflicted confusion if you could pull out. 170 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: So there's a the theory of biological selection based on 171 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: like game uh conditions is something do you know this 172 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: with a with a ladder? And I can't come up 173 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: with a term right now, but that that's what it is. 174 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you're defined by your environment and 175 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: so there is no like state line or you know 176 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: fans that there's gonna be one species on one side 177 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: of and the other. It's just like this developed thing 178 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: over millennia of certain body types are selected for certain 179 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: environments where that body type is going to be way 180 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: better at surviving based on the game the rainfall uh, 181 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: you know, places to hide one way dubs, stuff like that. 182 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: Dr Meltzer. He will probably give us the right terminology 183 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: by here described as morphological distinctions rather than genetic distinctions. 184 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: Is that okay, Yeah, I suspect these are all subspecies 185 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: and that um, what you've got are different subspecies that 186 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: have adapted better to those particular niches um, those particular 187 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: kind of ecosystems. And so really what you're seeing is 188 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: um populations that are settling into a range, and they're 189 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: staying in that range. Uh, And there will be introgression, 190 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: They'll be gene flow between these populations because they are 191 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: part of the same species. There's no reason why they 192 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: couldn't interbreede and probably did out on the boundaries of 193 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: each of those their ranges, right where the two of 194 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: them would occasionally uh intersect one another. So, yeah, you're 195 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: going to have that kind of movement. But you're right. 196 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean, if you've got particular taxa or particular populations 197 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: that natural selection you know, by the luck of the 198 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: draw uh and over time and adaptation, over time, they 199 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,719 Speaker 1: will be better adapted to a particular environment, a more 200 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 1: desert environment or a more wooded environment, whatever. Right, that's 201 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: just down. Natural selection works over time. Now you give 202 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: it a long enough time and you make those um, 203 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: those those ecological areas distinct enough, and you know, reduce 204 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: any kind of gene flow or introgression ultimately, and you've 205 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: got to give it tens of thousands, if not hundreds 206 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: of thousands of years, which we have no patience for, 207 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: by the way, not in this room. Um, you could 208 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: end up with different species species. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's 209 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: just evolution. You know. Darwin had all this figured out 210 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty nine. Yeah, And so like I went 211 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole on this thing, speaking a gam 212 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: and then speaking with a bunch of the pro Colorado 213 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: wolf reintroduction at folks, you know, and there is a 214 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: serious division on well, who cares if this larger gray 215 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: wolf intermingles with the Mexican wolves because that's like a 216 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: natural thing and they'll figure it out right, And then 217 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: you get into this genetic swamping uh type of discussion, 218 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: where um, there now we're dealing with such a small 219 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: population of Mexican wolves that there there is a real 220 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: possibility of genetic swamping and how this larger wolf, all 221 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: the trades of the larger wolf are going to overrun 222 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: the traits of this this smaller genetic pool of Mexican 223 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: wolves and we just don't have the luxury of a 224 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: big gene pool down here and a big gene pool 225 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: up here and tens of thousands of years for them 226 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: to and if million dollars getting that very small group 227 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: of Mexican wolves going, yes, so of then have a 228 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: bunch of ye who's in Colorado vote for this and 229 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: which is funny because it's citizens vote for this, and 230 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: then undo that there's probably a lot of people that 231 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: are dedicated to that that great that Mexican wolf recovery 232 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: who are kind of like and it's also an Endangered 233 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: Species Act thing, right, so you can argue that the 234 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: reintroduction of these wolves is like actually anti Endangered Species 235 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: Act because it threatens this listed wolf that we are 236 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: dedicated to recovery. Yeah, you can make one of those 237 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: documentaries that no one watches about all this. Uh okay, 238 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: cal Um, did you see how Creant even wrote a 239 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: transition for you? I did. It's good. That's full that's 240 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: full service right there. Dude. She's like with Cal, she's 241 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: still worried about Cal's performance. She had to write a 242 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: transition for him. She's like, he'll never he'll never, he's 243 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: got nothing. I need more. Moms wrote his transition for him, 244 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: so I got I was. I was also a hand 245 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: delivered a joke the other day because I selected a 246 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: bugs bunny. Um uh, you know what do you call it? 247 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: He's on your little kids? But band aids? Uh and uh. 248 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: I was supposed to take that picture of that band 249 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: aid on my shoulder and say, that's all folks posted 250 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: on Instagram. Yeah, um, let's do it. No, I had 251 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: the band aid came off too fast for my brain 252 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: to react. I just had a guy in New Zealand 253 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: send me this is a the nice idea. This is 254 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: right up your alley. Cow sent me. He's making band aids, 255 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: no plastics, band aids out of marino wool, which is 256 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: naturally anti microbial because the fibers are so fine reduces 257 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: the amount of surface area that bacteria grows on. Everybody 258 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: knows that I didn't need a MoMA for that. Okay, 259 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: he accounts, and I'm getting nervous. Sorry, okay. COVID vaccine 260 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: was recently used on great apes. Isn't a gorilla part 261 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: of the great ape family? Not just eight it's all 262 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: the dudes with no tails. I think isn't it Bobo, Yeah, chips, 263 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: the ranks and gorillas. Yeah. Um, so there is a 264 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: COVID vaccine trialed on mink. And the mink part of 265 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: the story is pretty interesting because if you go over 266 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: to Europe, big mink farms were cold. Like we're talking 267 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: to the tune of hundreds of thousands of mink right, yes, 268 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: in Denmark, sorry Denmark. Yeah, I bet they didn't have 269 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: a lot of press show up on that day. Oh 270 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: what are they? I guess they're probably like gas and 271 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: gas chambers and stuff. Yeah, I don't know, take a 272 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: lot of water to anyway. Um and but we so 273 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: we also had COVID show up in farmed mink populations 274 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: in in Utah here in the States, but they were 275 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: not cold. Um, there's a trial vaccine that was used 276 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: on mink. And then they're using this vaccine on the 277 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: Grade eight population in the San Diego Zoo. And I 278 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: thought they did this in New York as well. But um, 279 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: and the you know, it's a little interesting, it's a 280 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: little controversial. Brings to brings to mind a bunch of 281 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: like sci fi books and stuff I've read over the years. 282 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: I could I could identify a couple areas of controversy 283 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: is on one hand, you probably have the crowd who 284 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: would say, well, how could they be vaccinating mink and 285 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: grillis and whatnot? And I haven't got mine yet, Like 286 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: that's that, like as though it would have gone to them, 287 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: like as though they would have gotten it. Yeah, I'm 288 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: sure that there's that. There's probably man things, But I 289 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: was surprised to see in this story that an asymptomatic 290 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: zoo keeper um spread the virus to eight gorillas that 291 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: tested positive. Yeah, do you know what, Maggie here in 292 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: our office is convinced that her dog died of COVID. 293 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: She's got a very compelling, very compelling timeline symptomology. But 294 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: that's the origin of many of our diseases. They're zoonotic, 295 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: and they get something that's relatively benign in one species, 296 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: when it gets into another can become very deadly and virulent. 297 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: And most of the major epidemic disease us is that 298 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: humans have suffered from over the last ten thousand years 299 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: have come from animals originally, And why can't they go 300 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: back in the other direction? Exactly to me? And that 301 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: that is the argument here, right, It's like uh, we 302 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: need especially maybe not so much the great you know, 303 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: the limited Great eight population the San Diego Zoo of 304 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: eight individuals. But if you look at how uh something 305 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: could transform in like a mink farm with thousands of individuals, 306 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: or let's say like a chicken farm or a hog 307 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: farm where you have thousands of individuals in close contact 308 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: in one space, you could see how um a virus 309 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: could evolve very quickly. Right, So yes, I mean super 310 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: super interesting. I'll tell you a take on this this farm, 311 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: this this mink farm thing is um. Wild fur prices 312 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: are often tied very directly to ranch output. So I 313 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 1: remember that guy I can't remember said it's like globally 314 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: or something, the not trapped in the wild ye and 315 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: people used you know, they used to be like all 316 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: over fox farms and mink farms and everything when people 317 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: back when people wore a lot of fur. UM. I 318 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: wonder if these die offs and killoffs at these ranch 319 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: facilities will in a year or two is time result 320 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: in like an explosion and value of wild fur as 321 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 1: the ranch facsimile as their production falters, and and no 322 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: doubt it probably takes to get to get going and 323 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: retooled I'd be curious to watch how that plays out. 324 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: I think Michigan is our number one farmed first aig. 325 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: I believe so. No, man, that makes me think they 326 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: don't do much of it really just well, I don't 327 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: think there's like big signs around and say hey we're 328 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: firing third bring me kids, all right, Spencer Krin didn't 329 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: give you a transition. What you guys see you help 330 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: this guy out. This guy looks slick. This guy looks slick, 331 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: and Spencer over here, you guys trying to set you 332 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: up for failure. I know you guys have gotten many 333 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: emails about that episode of Dr Alan Lazara, like saving lives, 334 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: specifically talking about the tourniquet. Three lives, three lives. That's many. 335 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: We got our first email about meat eater saving a 336 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: bird's life, Spencer's in particular, right, this is all Spencer 337 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: by example. Yeah, back in November. Back in November, I 338 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: told a story about how I found a an owl 339 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: in a barbedwire fence that I tried to save. Um 340 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: cute little story. Yeah, yeah, it didn't work out, but 341 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: it led me to a different part of the horrible, 342 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: got real plot twist. That story it was like when 343 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: you're watching The Departed and all of a sudden, the guy, 344 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: the main guy, got shot in the elevator. Yeah, and 345 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that's not where I saw this going 346 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: quite all of the character in that minute. And I 347 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: was like, that's what I didn't picture that. The Spencer 348 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: story has a lot it's very similar to The Departed. 349 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: So we got an email from Robbie from the Montana 350 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: f WP Region five h Q and Billings. He said 351 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: that he got a phone call from motorists that was 352 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,959 Speaker 1: traveling east of Billings on the interstate. This motorist pulled 353 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: over to check on a hawk that was in the 354 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: ditch that looked injured. Excuse me, not a hawk and owl, 355 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: a great horned owl, great horned owl to check on it? 356 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: Is it proper to say horn or horned horned owl? Yeah, 357 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: So we stopped to check on this owl. Uh, that 358 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: was very much alive, but in very rough condition. So 359 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: this motorist, who it says was driving a produced truck, 360 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: which leaves me with some questions. And I don't know 361 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: what sort of produce he'd be hauling. Yeah, good question. 362 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: He was driving an autoparts truck. Would you wonder what 363 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: auto parts he was on, wouldn't It's like all tators 364 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: in college. I worked at Walmart for about six months 365 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: in the produce section, so I I love produce. Your 366 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: produce man, Yeah, to make up for the minimum wage 367 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: you got paid, I would just like graze on apples 368 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 1: and oranges all day. So I very particular about produce. 369 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: We know, we know the guys from Idahou, So maybe 370 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: some potato. Maybe there were seed potatoes or something potatoes 371 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: on the edge of my seat. He stopped to check 372 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: on this owl, calls the f w P UM and 373 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: he's talking to the guy at the f w P 374 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: who's named Robbie, and he says, yeah, I stopped to 375 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: check on this owl because I heard on the Meat 376 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: Eater podcast that there was a place in Montana that 377 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: will rehabilitate injured birds. And he said, what kind of 378 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: truck did he get hit by? When do you say produce? 379 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: Hold on before we're talking about this ol. So Robbie 380 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: confirms that the place that he uh sort of heard 381 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: about in the Mediator podcast is the Montana Raptor Conservation 382 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: Center in Bozeman. It turns out that the guy is 383 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: on his way through Bozeman on his way back to Idaho. 384 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: So they coordinated drop off at the Raptor Center and 385 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: the guy puts the owl in his produced truck and 386 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: he meets him at the exit at Bozeman. So Robbie 387 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: writes in to tell us that I think it's safe 388 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: to say the Meat Eater podcast saved the life of 389 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 1: an owl today if we ended the if only the 390 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: story end there, that's right, like my story. We have 391 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: a story. But then Karan had to go and check 392 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: had to go and see how Yeah that doesn't fit 393 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: with the news cycle, right, So Karan, what did you hear? Okay? Yeah, 394 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: oh so sad so sadly. And they named this owl 395 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: great horn owl, number twenty. This owl did not make 396 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: it explain they're not their naming system. That's interesting. So 397 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: what I deduced is they will uh name the animal 398 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: based upon like its species, so great horn owl. And 399 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,959 Speaker 1: apparently this is case number twenty, so this is Raptor 400 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: of the year number twenty, so great horn owl number twenty. Um. 401 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: When when they when they named mine, I think it 402 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: was g h O and then I don't remember the number. 403 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: It was like something but that was in right, Okay, 404 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: So of last year, right, so this is this year. 405 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: The injuries to the owl were there was a compound 406 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: fracture around its or on its left humorous shoulder, and 407 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: they didn't put the owl through kind of the trauma 408 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: of surgery UM because the problem with the compound fracture 409 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: for something like a bird is what they would normally 410 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: do UM is put a pin through the bone to 411 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: kind of stabilize it. But you can't with the shoulder. 412 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: You can't really do that. It would cause tissue damage. 413 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: And even if surgery was performed on the bird, he 414 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to fly, you know, even after he 415 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: had healed up, So he would have one working wing 416 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: and another non working wing, so be ground based owl. Yes, 417 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: it would be hopping around. Al I'm gonna walk over 418 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: and get that right, um. Yeah. So they discovered this 419 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: in an X ray and found also many the bone 420 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: had shattered, So instead of put the owl through the 421 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: trauma of surgery, they knew he wasn't going to make 422 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: it anyway, and they euthanized him. The phone call that 423 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: I received from the Montana Raptor Center when they happened 424 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: back in November, it was unlike any I had before. 425 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: They handled me very very gently, as though they were 426 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: delivering the news that I lost my mother or something 427 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: like that. Um, they like had to build up to it, 428 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: explained what happened, and then they delivered the news and 429 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: they were like real apologetic and explained why this had 430 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: to happen, uh the way it did and stuff like that. 431 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: So they are a great crew. There's an old joke 432 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: about that. I'll tell you the punch line. The punch 433 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: line is how's mom? Uh, she's up on the roof. 434 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: It's a great joke. Um, I don't get it. You don't. 435 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: I didn't tell you the joke. I still the punch line. 436 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: You have to look it up. This guy, this guy 437 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: goes this Okay, this guy loves his cat. He's got 438 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: to go overseas for a work trip. He leaves his 439 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: cat with his brother right away, lands calls his brother 440 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: and brothers like cats dead. And later he's like, man, 441 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: you could you know, kind of delivered it more slowly, 442 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: like maybe like the cats on the roof and then 443 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: you know the cats, We got the cat off the roof. 444 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: He's not looking too good, you know. So he goes anyways, 445 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: Hell's Mom? And he's like, ah, she's up on the roof. 446 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: So um. Oh, last thing, you were drawing parallels between 447 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: saving lives with tourniquets and birds. But people write us 448 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: in about saving lives with tourniquets, right, it'd be great 449 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: if you can find us a happy ending rafter story. 450 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: From what I get, they're talking to them that there's 451 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: not a whole lot of them when it all gets 452 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: hit by vehicle. Vehicle collisions are hard on him. Yeah, 453 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: winds it up in a fence. Not a whole lot 454 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: of them make it. You'll be searching for a while. Yeah, 455 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: I wonder what the percentage of you know, over the 456 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: course of a year, how many birds they accept and 457 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: what percentage? Uh you know, actually the fact that they 458 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: entertained it must mean that it's not impossible. Oh sure, Yeah, 459 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: mom thump day owl and her school bus the other 460 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: day had what happened. You know, a mom drives school 461 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: bus and she she thumped an owl in the school 462 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: bus with kids on board. Well, that's what I asked, 463 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: and she said no. But that was like so obviously good, 464 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: you know, no trauma for the kids. And and apparently 465 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: mom stopped the school bus on the road and searched 466 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: for the owl for a while and I couldn't find it. 467 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: You'll appreciate this, David, No, not that, but this. I 468 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: have a friend named Ray the Rockman Baker, who's a 469 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: big arrowheadhunter. And he was a professional ego. He collected ego, 470 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: but walking around looking at the ground, you inevitably turn 471 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: up stuff. He was so good at finding arrowheads. He 472 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: told me a story and he showed me where it happened. 473 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: He was a bus driver. He one time swung his door, 474 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: you know they got that hand crank, swung the door 475 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: open to let a kid on, looked and saw and 476 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: found the arrowhead off on the side of a dirt road, 477 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: picking a kid up out the school bus door. That's 478 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: how good that guy was. Um. Okay, last time we spoke, 479 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: you were I can't remember to what degree did you 480 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: tease you're you're you're new. Do you call a book mountaineer? No? 481 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: That was the first people's book that was I was 482 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: finishing up well. No, no, no, you like either we 483 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: got done recording and you brought it up, or you 484 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: teased what would become your new, your forthcoming book. Yeah, 485 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 1: I can't remember, but you didn't go into any kind 486 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: of great detail. So for our discussion day, you want 487 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: to start out in the mountaineer. Yeah, let's start on 488 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: top of the mountain in the Rockies, because this is 489 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: a crazy story. Yeah. So this is a site that 490 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: was discovered by a colleague of mine, Mark Steiger, at 491 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: what's called Western Colorado University in Gunnison, and I had 492 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: just finished up a few years earlier, my excavations at 493 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: the Folsome type site. Did we talk about Folsome last time? No? Man, 494 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: we could put this mountaineer thing on the hold. You 495 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: could talk about Okay, let's let's start with Falsome. What 496 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: the hell we did talk about Falsom? But we'll just 497 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: give it a review, Okay, okay for the kids that 498 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: weren't listening the first time we did this. Uh, Falsome 499 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: is an extraordinarily important site. And it's not because I 500 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: excavated there for three years. It's because of what happened 501 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: there in the nineteen twenties. And what happened there in 502 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties was that after fifty years of bitter, 503 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: long standing dispute and controversy over how long people have 504 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: been in the America's Fulsome was the site that provided 505 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: the the best, most secure and convincing evidence that indeed 506 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: people had been here since the Ice Age in the Americas. 507 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: And that evidence was, and this is for all you 508 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: hunters out there, it was a stone spear point in 509 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: between the ribs of a now ext inked bison bison antiquis. 510 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: There was no question that that artifact was stabbed into 511 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: that animal when that animal was alive. And so if 512 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: that animal was alive at the end of the place 513 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: to scene, that meant people were there too. In the 514 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,959 Speaker 1: years after Fulsome, lots more sites were found which confirmed 515 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: that in fact, people had been here since the Ice Age, 516 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: that they've been hunting big game like giant bison, mammoths, 517 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: maybe even some mastodons. But nobody ever went back to 518 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: the Fulsome site, and the reason was that when they 519 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: finished up there in the nineteen twenties, they said, well, 520 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: there's nothing left. So I went back there in the 521 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and I excavated there, and we learned a 522 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: whole bunch of things about Fulsome, and one of the 523 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: things that was really the sort of key message that 524 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: came out of that was that these are highly mobile people. 525 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: They are tracking great distances across the landscape, and we 526 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: know that by looking at the stone that they picked 527 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: up because they tended to I mean, when you're out hunting, 528 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: you want the best weaponry that you can get. You 529 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: don't want something to fail when you're about to take 530 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: a shot. Right, these folks were using really high quality stone. 531 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: And the high quality stone that they were using is 532 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: very distinctive in terms of its color, in terms of 533 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: the fossils that might be within the rock as well. 534 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: And so we knew from where they picked up the 535 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: stone how far they traveled across the landscape, and in 536 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: the case of fulsome it was literally hundreds of kilometers. 537 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: They had been down to quarries in the Panhandle of 538 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: Texas place called Alibate's National Monument, just outside of m 539 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: Alibates National Monument, because it was a quarry, like that's 540 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: the monuments. Absolutely, yeah, it is. It is based not 541 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: coincidental like that, that's what they're celebrating with the monument. Absolutely, 542 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: this is the home depot to beat all home depots 543 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: at the end of the place to see and for 544 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: that matter, for the next ten thousand years, right, people 545 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: have been going to that place to collect stone, and 546 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: so we knew they'd been there. We knew they'd been 547 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: up in Sterling, Colorado. They've been making this big, long loop. 548 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: So what were they doing. They were probably we know 549 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: they were bison hunters, big time bison hunters. So we've 550 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: got highly mobile bison hunters. They're there at the fulsome site. 551 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: We were able to ascertain when they were there. We 552 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: know they were there in the fall. And the reason 553 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: we know they were there in the fall is that 554 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: you look at the eruption patterns of their molders, you 555 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: look at the wear patterns on their teeth. You make 556 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: certain assumptions about when bison cabs will pop out generally, 557 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: you know, mid April to mid May, and so by 558 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: looking at that, you can infer that they were there 559 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: and say September or October. They didn't stay long. We 560 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: looked for a camp. We looked all over for a camp. 561 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: We found absolutely no evidence that they spent more than 562 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: the three or four days that they would have needed 563 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: to butcher the animals. They killed thirty two of them, 564 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: we know that too. And a little kind of trapped 565 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: them in a little box. Came exactly right, exactly right. 566 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: They moved him into an arroyo and arroyal that they 567 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: couldn't necessarily get out of. And I suspect the hunters 568 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: were positioned on the uplands right a above where all 569 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: these animals were thrashing around and trying to escape, killed them, 570 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: butchered them. And what they did, and we see this 571 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: a lot in the archaeological record. They they were gourmet butcher's. 572 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: They took all the good bits, right, so they got 573 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: rib racks, they got shoulder humped meat, they took some 574 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: of the long bones, you're basic bitson drumsticks. They hauled 575 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,879 Speaker 1: all that away. What did they leave behind? They left 576 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: behind heads, butts and feet, because there's just not a 577 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: lot of meat on heads, butts and feet. Now, you 578 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: can do some things with brains, you know, tanning hides, 579 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But they weren't lingering, they weren't 580 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: sticking around. Folsome is it about seven thousand feet elevation, 581 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,479 Speaker 1: and so my conclusion was, it's September. You're at seven 582 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: thousand feet. Winter's coming. This is an area that gets 583 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: a lot of snow. And I figured they're just gonna 584 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: bug out. They're gonna go find someplace warmer. They're gonna 585 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: go lower elevation, they're gonna get off into a more 586 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: protected area, you know, case closed. So a few years 587 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: after that, Mark Steiger invites me up to work in 588 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: Gunnison with him on a site that he has on 589 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: top of a mountain. The mountain is at an elevation, 590 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,919 Speaker 1: it's a mesa in the Gunnison basin. So picture it's 591 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: not quite a park like South Park or North Park 592 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: or Middle Park in Colorado, but it's the same kind 593 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: of principle where you've got high uh. You're basically on 594 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: just the west side of the Continental Divide. From there 595 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: you see all these fourteen thousand foot peaks. The lowest 596 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: pass into that area is a ten thousand feet You 597 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: get down onto the basin floor basin floors at about 598 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: seventy feet. And just as a side note, the airport 599 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: there in Gunnison, because you're at such high elevation as 600 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: a really extra long runway and so when we were 601 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: working there, were literally working right above the airport and 602 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: the air Force is sending all these gigantic uh you know, 603 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: those Galaxy planes, the ones that they put tanks into. 604 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: They come there and they do touch and goes to 605 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: sort of practice landing at high elevation anyway, So he says, 606 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: why don't you come up and work on this site? 607 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: Joined the efforts, I said, sure. So this site was 608 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: hiding in plain sight. You literally see it from town. 609 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: You just look up and say, okay, well, there's a 610 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 1: fulesome site right on top of that, of course if 611 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: you knew that, right, But their dogs up there for 612 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: well exactly, and and Mark discovered the site because they 613 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: were putting in some radio towers. Okay, so you've got 614 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: this mesa, this isolated mason in the midst of this 615 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: basin thousand feet above the basin floor, and we're looking 616 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: at a surface that is just flattest can be, and 617 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: it's very rocky. It's a rock strewn surface. And we 618 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: noticed Mark noticed first, uh, and I noticed when we 619 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: started to work in a different area of the site 620 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: that you know, there's some patterns to these rocks. And 621 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: the more we excavated, the more the patterns became clear. 622 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: What we were seeing were sort of large circular areas 623 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: with very large rocks forming the circle, and then kind 624 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 1: of a cleared area in the middle, and in our case, 625 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: what appeared to be a doorway leading into one of 626 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: these sort of circular structures. Um, it was facing east, 627 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 1: and I think, okay, well you've got a circular structure, 628 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: you've got a doorway, it's facing east. That's maybe a house. 629 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: So over a number of years we were explained the 630 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: east rising sun rising sun a lot. You know, you 631 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: sort of look worldwide. There are certain kind of universal patterns, 632 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: not not truly universal, but it's common enough that it's 633 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: clearly something meaningful that you know, you have the sun 634 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: coming in first thing in the morning. So, um, we're 635 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 1: excavating these these uh, what looked to be structures, we're 636 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: finding very distinctive patterns. So right outside the front door, 637 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: it's been clear of rock and there's a bunch of 638 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: scrapers there. Okay, well, if you're going to stretch out 639 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: of bison hide and clean it, you want to kind 640 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 1: of smooth out the surface that you're working on. Um, 641 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: we're you know, we're spending a lot of time up there, 642 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: and we're thinking about it, and we're thinking, why the 643 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: hell are you building stone walled structures which in fact 644 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: we know had wooden superstructures. That is to say, put 645 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: it in just plain English, they had aspen poles that 646 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: had been anchored by these large rocks. We know they 647 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: were aspen poles because one of these structures burned. And 648 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: what had happened was the structure had been built, the 649 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: aspen poles had been put up, mud had been packed 650 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: in and around all the poles to insulate the structure, 651 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: and then when it burned, it basically turned the mud 652 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: into ceramic, which preserved the bark of the imprint of 653 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: the aspen pole park. Right. So, okay, we're a thousand 654 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 1: feet above the valley floor. There no water up there. Now, 655 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: you know how much water ways? Right? Seven ponds of gallon? 656 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: Right about eight? That's good though, maybe that was gas something. Um. 657 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: If the nearest water is a thousand feet below you, 658 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: and you know how much humans have to drink, right, 659 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: we have water cooled engines. You don't want to spend 660 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: a good part of your day going up and down 661 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: a thousand feet hauling water. Do you also want to 662 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: build a stone structure with insulated walls in the summer 663 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 1: on top of a mountain where there's no water. It 664 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: didn't make a lot of sense, and it finally had 665 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: dawned on us. Well, maybe this wasn't occupied in the 666 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: summer as we thought about it and thought about it 667 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: some more, what we realized was this is likely a 668 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: winter hamlet. There are are what appeared to be at 669 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,879 Speaker 1: least four of these large structures on top of this. 670 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: Can you can you tell me the circumference of one 671 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: of these structures. It's about five meters to make it 672 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: about fifteen feet in diameter UM and yeah, generally plus 673 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: or minus that um And they're kind of in a 674 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: big arc up on top of the hill there. And 675 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: so what we also realized, so this is a closed 676 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 1: basin in the winter. And mind you, this is Gunnison, Colorado. Gunnison, 677 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: Colorado was one of the coldest places in the lower 678 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:43,720 Speaker 1: forty eight of the United States. This was a site 679 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 1: that was occupied in fulsome times. And the radio carbon 680 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: dates we have come in around ten thousand, four hundred 681 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: radio carbon years, which is about twelve four in in 682 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: real years. And so this was the end of the 683 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: Palisto scene. So you can be sure it wasn't any 684 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: warmer than than it is today. Right. So one of 685 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: the things that we realized was that in a cold 686 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: closed basin like that, cold air sinks. So if you're 687 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: a thousand feet above the valley floor. It's actually warmer 688 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: there then if you were down on the valley floor itself. 689 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: And the other thing is is you're on top of 690 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: this mesa. There's no mountains that are shading you, so 691 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: you're getting maximum daylight during those winter months, and it's 692 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,879 Speaker 1: going to be more comfortable up there. And if you're 693 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: there in the winter, you don't have to worry about 694 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: water because the snow is going to collect on the 695 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: side of the houses, it's going to collect in the 696 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: cornices on the edge of the mesa. This is a 697 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: really good place to spend the winter, as it turns out, 698 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: because not only do you have um, well, let me 699 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: back up, you have from the top of that mesa, 700 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: if you walk around the perimeter of it, it's a 701 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: couple of miles just all around the edge of this mesa. 702 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,359 Speaker 1: I don't know if the viewers at home can see 703 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: me circling my finger, just sort of circling. Wait, this 704 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 1: isn't on TV. Um you see uh, you see forever, 705 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: you see forever. So if you're a hunter and you're 706 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: sitting up on the edge of this mesa and the 707 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: valley floor is dusted with snow, if there's a herd 708 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,879 Speaker 1: of bison down there, you're gonna see him, and you've 709 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,439 Speaker 1: got time to figure out. Okay, how do we get down, 710 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: how do we circle? What's the what's the hunt strategy here? 711 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: How are we going to do this? And think about this. 712 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: If you're in a closed basin and the lowest elevation 713 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: mountain pass out of that basin, is it ten tho feet? Yeah? 714 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: But what what's the outlet? What? What is it? Is 715 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,320 Speaker 1: a canyon like a gorge the Gunnison River out of 716 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: the west. Yeah, but that gorge is incredibly narrow and 717 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: incredibly deep, and it's a very treacherous outlet. And in fact, 718 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,240 Speaker 1: one of the things that's really distinctive about the ecology. 719 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: We were talking about the ecology of different regions earlier, Right, 720 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 1: the Gunnison Basin has a number of endemic species, which 721 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: basically means these are animals and plants that have been 722 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 1: isolated for thousands and thousands of years and hence have 723 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: developed new species. Right. So that tells you that it's 724 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,839 Speaker 1: not easy getting in and out of that basin over 725 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,280 Speaker 1: the long geological time. But if you're a hunter gatherer 726 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,879 Speaker 1: and you're in this basin and it's in the dead 727 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: of winter, they're getting just tons of snow up on 728 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: these passes. You're essentially stuck there. But here's the good news. 729 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: The animals are stuck there too, right. So if you've 730 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: got elk and bison that are spending the summer up 731 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: at twelve or thirteen thousand feet, you know they can 732 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,320 Speaker 1: do okay in snow, but you know they're going to 733 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 1: come down, and so are all the other animals. And 734 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: so you've basically got a walking refrigerator on the valley 735 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: floor below you that you can see from miles away. 736 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: You've got ample stone, you've water. Why not just park 737 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: yourself here at eight thousand feet in the rockies. So 738 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: my thinking, you know, coming trying to freeze your butt. 739 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: Well yeah, but um, these folks knew what they were 740 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: in for, because they clearly this wasn't a case where 741 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: they kind of came in the summer they were hunting 742 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: and oh the first snowfall, we're stuck here. They knew 743 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: exactly what they were doing. They found one of the 744 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: most ideal spots in that entire basin to set up 745 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: their winter camp and stayed there through the winter. Have 746 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: you guys found any funnel remains at all. There's the 747 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: you know, there's a beautiful theory killed by a horrible fact. 748 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: The fact is is that we we haven't found anything 749 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 1: to empirically demonstrate. And this is the frustrating part of 750 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: that whole project to found to find anything that would 751 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: clearly and securely confirmed that this was a winter occupation. 752 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: It's just not there. We found thirty four thousand bones, 753 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: scraps of which are no bigger than your thumbnail. Because 754 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: this is a very cold environment. It's a very harsh environment. 755 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: You've got a lot of freeze, thraw and cracking, and 756 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, bone just doesn't preserve. And that's the problem 757 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 1: as an interesting shed hunting observation in areas like that 758 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: high elevation, serious exposure, find a lot of cracked antler yep, 759 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: goes quick. Yeah, like the the that freeze thaw and 760 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 1: and how hot the sun gets on those south facing slopes. 761 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: The brown antlier once it falls off cracks. What critters 762 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: besides elk and bison or you finding bones of up there, Well, 763 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: mostly it's just elk and bison because the larger mammals, 764 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna get more option or opportunity or 765 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: likelihood of getting their bones preserved. We the largest chunk 766 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: that we got was a distal tibia of a bison. Uh. 767 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,760 Speaker 1: And it was just a chunk of the distal tibia, 768 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: so you know, the lower leg bone larger of the two. Uh. 769 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 1: And that was you know, that piece was maybe just 770 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: a couple of inches uh in length. So we did 771 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: find some fetal bone, which we thought, okay, so maybe 772 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,879 Speaker 1: we had they killed an arch or whatever exactly. Um, 773 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 1: but when we radiocarbon dated it, it wasn't fulsome in age. Uh. 774 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: Have you been able to radio carbon date any of 775 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 1: the bone? Oh? Yeah, no, the bison bone that was 776 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: large enough. Yeah. Absolutely. Now we have we have really 777 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: good solid radio carbon ages on that site. Uh. And 778 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,480 Speaker 1: as I said, it's about twelve four and it's there's 779 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,320 Speaker 1: fulsome points all over the place. We have over a 780 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 1: hundred of them. Any nice ones? Oh yeah, are they 781 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 1: in your book? Um? Well, yeah, like pictures of them. 782 00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: My kid just got a shark book or like if 783 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: they're like reading want that school. He got a book 784 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: about sharks that came with two shark teeth. Well in 785 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,959 Speaker 1: a little plastic container setting foam built into the cover 786 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: of the book. Now, if you sold that book with 787 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: the point the falsome point, well I don't. Yeah, I know, 788 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,120 Speaker 1: but I don't have a hundred books to sell and 789 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: i'd have to charge for each. I feel like, you 790 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: get it, your reputation destroyed. Well, I do have co authors, 791 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,359 Speaker 1: so I just point to them. So why why did 792 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: you guys think of that? Um? So, yeah, no, it's uh, 793 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 1: but this getting back to the fulsome story, right. I 794 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: was convinced. I was convinced that these guys, I want 795 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,280 Speaker 1: to get back to the points for a minute. Okay, 796 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:49,439 Speaker 1: are the points um in the houses, like out front 797 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,160 Speaker 1: of the doors, just kind of everywhere? Well, one of 798 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,839 Speaker 1: the houses has a lot of them, and I think 799 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:56,799 Speaker 1: that that's you know, we had a bunch of folks 800 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: kind of sitting around, this is winner. What are you 801 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: gonna do. You're gonna gear up, You're gonna get ready 802 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 1: for the hunt. And so they were making a lot 803 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 1: of points. And the really interesting thing that we found 804 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,320 Speaker 1: were one of the really interesting things that we found 805 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: was a point that had been made at the site. 806 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: And we know it was made at the site because 807 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,920 Speaker 1: we found the channel flake. The channel flake is the 808 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 1: flake that is from the flute that you remove from 809 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,319 Speaker 1: the face of a falsome point, which makes you a 810 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: hell of a flint napper. Right, that's still of the 811 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: time it's going to fail. So if you get that 812 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,560 Speaker 1: pinnacle moment and yeah they break, well, you know, you 813 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: invest forty five minutes and something, and then what's the 814 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: next to last thing that you do. You flute it 815 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: where you have a failure risk. What were they thinking? Anyway? 816 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: So we find um a point, and then find a 817 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,719 Speaker 1: point base from a clearly at a point that it's 818 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: snapped in half and had been brought back to the site. 819 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:02,320 Speaker 1: It refit to that channel flake, which meant that they Okay, 820 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: you make a point, you leave a certain amount of 821 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,360 Speaker 1: debris behind, including channel flakes. You attach that point to 822 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: a spear, You go down down slope down a thousand feet, 823 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: you go out onto the basin floor, you kill an animal, 824 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,919 Speaker 1: You bring back your busted spear, you unwrap it from 825 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: its half, the thing that mounts it to the spear, 826 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 1: and you just you know, sort of discard the base 827 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,279 Speaker 1: of the point right there, and then ten thousand radio 828 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: carbon years later we come along and we refit that 829 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: channel flake to the point. There's the story. The story 830 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,080 Speaker 1: is is that they made it here, used it on 831 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,600 Speaker 1: the floor, brought it back right. So you know, they 832 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: were basically just hanging around the basic the tip was 833 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: probably sticking in an animal somewhere and got lost forever. 834 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: You know what I would do if I was an anthropologists, 835 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,640 Speaker 1: I would find I'd go down to the folsome site 836 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:55,120 Speaker 1: m hm, and I'd find some channel flake that matches 837 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,320 Speaker 1: one at your news site, and I would tell everybody 838 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: how that was those guys and that's where they went. 839 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,400 Speaker 1: You know what. I was so tempted. I was so 840 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,880 Speaker 1: tempted to connect the two dots um, except they're um, 841 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: they're different ages. How far a part of it? Um? 842 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,759 Speaker 1: Less than a century? But less than a century? Yeah, 843 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 1: they might very well have known people. Well, you know 844 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,480 Speaker 1: that's entirely possible, because you know, there were a few 845 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 1: enough of those folks out there on the landscape. How many, 846 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: like how few do you think? I know you can't say, 847 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: but like, let's give me a plausible idea of how few, 848 00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: Like if you were in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana 849 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,959 Speaker 1: and there's only one source of stone. Just to clear 850 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: this up, there's only one source of stone at the 851 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:44,040 Speaker 1: Gunnison site. Um, okay, so no outside that, that's there's 852 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: an interesting story. And then I'm gonna try and ignore 853 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,000 Speaker 1: Steve's question because I don't know the answer, so help 854 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:50,799 Speaker 1: me not come back. But there has to be there 855 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,880 Speaker 1: has to be a framework. I'll give you, give me 856 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,359 Speaker 1: the framework to answer Steve's question, and then I'll get 857 00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:02,600 Speaker 1: back because there's stone moving around that could be independent 858 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:09,320 Speaker 1: of the people because of overlapping groups. And absolutely here's 859 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 1: your question. Here's the answer to your question. We actually 860 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: know a lot more about population than we did the 861 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 1: last time I talked to you. And the reason is 862 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,360 Speaker 1: is that UH continue to work on ancient DNA and 863 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 1: genetics is giving us a much better picture of population 864 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: history and demography. And one of the things that's come 865 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,520 Speaker 1: out in just the last couple of years is that 866 00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:34,280 Speaker 1: populations as soon as they got into the America's boomed 867 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,320 Speaker 1: a sixtyfold increase over about a three thousand year period. 868 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,520 Speaker 1: Now that doesn't give you absolute numbers. You know, how 869 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,360 Speaker 1: many did they start with? Did they start with a hundred, 870 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,200 Speaker 1: did they start with a thousand? We have no idea. 871 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,879 Speaker 1: What we do know is that the rate of population 872 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: increase was spectacularly high. This might have been sort of 873 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 1: one of the biggest population booms ever in human prehistory, 874 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 1: which basically means that when people got here, this was 875 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 1: a rich environment in which they were highly suc It 876 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,880 Speaker 1: was the honeyhole. There you go. You know, you you 877 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,240 Speaker 1: crossed all of your you're, you're It's like you're getting 878 00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:12,000 Speaker 1: an opportunity to come in and, um pick over things 879 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,040 Speaker 1: that have never been picked over. Well, not only it 880 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,080 Speaker 1: was like oysters, Like here's an oyster bed, it's never 881 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,680 Speaker 1: been picked over. Well, let's let's talk about large mammals. 882 00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: They've never seen a two legged predator. Now, they're not stupid, 883 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,160 Speaker 1: they're going to pretty quickly figure it out that you're 884 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,879 Speaker 1: bad news. Okay, But those first couple of times when 885 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:31,319 Speaker 1: you rock ride up to him and whack them on 886 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: the head. You know, this is like those stories. I mean, 887 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,799 Speaker 1: we have examples of this because in more we have 888 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,800 Speaker 1: like very um elaborate descriptions of people arriving on remote 889 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:48,040 Speaker 1: islands they had never been inhabited, and they literally walk around, 890 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,839 Speaker 1: um oftentimes to the point where it's all gone pretty soon, 891 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,759 Speaker 1: walk around clubbing everything to death. Well your oyster example too, right, 892 00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 1: there's descriptions of like and re oyster is the size 893 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:05,160 Speaker 1: of your hand like an outstretched you know, absolutely yeah, 894 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,879 Speaker 1: and the chest peak Bay. There's historical studies that show 895 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:12,520 Speaker 1: there's this massive shrinkage of oysters because of overharvesting over 896 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,800 Speaker 1: the years. But to your question, cal about the stone, Um, 897 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:20,480 Speaker 1: they did in fact bring in outside stone to the 898 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,919 Speaker 1: gun of Some site. Yeah. So presumably when they first 899 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,040 Speaker 1: showed up they had material that they'd collected elsewhere. But 900 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,560 Speaker 1: then once you're sort of in that basin, over the 901 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,839 Speaker 1: course of the winter, your stone is gonna get used up. 902 00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:36,040 Speaker 1: But fortunately they had access to really high quality court site. 903 00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,200 Speaker 1: Now I should explain court site is not you know, 904 00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:43,479 Speaker 1: sort of your favored fulsome stone making or tool making 905 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: materials Church cal Sdney Jaspers, and you know, these folks 906 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,440 Speaker 1: went for the good stuff. Uh. And they certainly did 907 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,120 Speaker 1: at the Fulsome site. But here in Gunnison they were 908 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,960 Speaker 1: making points out of court site, um, which was high 909 00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,440 Speaker 1: quality court site, and so they were very adept at it. 910 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: But they had an unlimited supply. So again this gets too. 911 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,120 Speaker 1: If you're gonna hunker down for a long period of time, 912 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,239 Speaker 1: you want food, you want water, you want stone. They 913 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,680 Speaker 1: had all three, and it just so happens that they're 914 00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,560 Speaker 1: on top of this mountain in the Rockies where it's 915 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,759 Speaker 1: one of the coldest places in North America now and 916 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,160 Speaker 1: probably was one of the coldest places in North America then. 917 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,759 Speaker 1: But they did just fine. Do you might walking through 918 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,000 Speaker 1: a uh, this is on Cow's stone question, do you 919 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:30,799 Speaker 1: might walking through a plausible explanation of how in what 920 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:35,920 Speaker 1: form stone was transported? Because I've seen these references to 921 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:41,080 Speaker 1: um cores and by faces and things. That's a good Yeah, 922 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,760 Speaker 1: I like that, that's good. Yeah. So uh, euro pedestrian 923 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,600 Speaker 1: hunter gather you don't really have a lot of beasts 924 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,280 Speaker 1: of burden. Um, the best you've got is a dog, 925 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,400 Speaker 1: and you can load a bunch of stuff on dogs. 926 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 1: You could load just tons of stuff on Karn's Newfoundland 927 00:55:55,400 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 1: out there, but these dogs were probably not that large. Um. 928 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: Just in case you big needs. This is a beautiful 929 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,279 Speaker 1: seg by the way, beautiful segue. Well I knew where 930 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:16,920 Speaker 1: we were going. I didn't need Korean's script. David. So, Um, 931 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,120 Speaker 1: you're a hunter gatherer, right, you go to the you 932 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,320 Speaker 1: go to these outcrops and there's just a big, massive 933 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,759 Speaker 1: blocks of stuff you're not going to slip one of 934 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:28,399 Speaker 1: those things across the landscape a because well you held 935 00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,560 Speaker 1: your arms out. But an outcrop is I mean it 936 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,439 Speaker 1: could be like a car sized out crop. Oh yeah, 937 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:34,839 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I have good stone. I've been to I've 938 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,920 Speaker 1: been to Alibates and actually on the other side of 939 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:39,960 Speaker 1: the river from the National Monument on on a private 940 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,680 Speaker 1: ranch where I literally saw a block of Alibates the 941 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,359 Speaker 1: size of the pickup truck just peer like could take 942 00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,319 Speaker 1: the whole thing and make it. You can make tens 943 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,359 Speaker 1: of thousands and then sell them with that book that 944 00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:55,560 Speaker 1: you know you want to publish. Yeah. Um, so what 945 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: you're gonna do and and not just the weight and 946 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,719 Speaker 1: the size, you also want to get the quality. So 947 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:02,520 Speaker 1: you're gonna spend a little bit of time at the outcrop, 948 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,640 Speaker 1: You're gonna spend a little bit of time at the quarry, 949 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:09,000 Speaker 1: and you're gonna fashion. Um, you're gonna reduce the stone 950 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:13,360 Speaker 1: into manageable packages for carrying. And oftentimes what you're producing 951 00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:18,480 Speaker 1: is kind of a large platter like thing which um 952 00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 1: is easily transported. You put it in a bag, a 953 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:26,640 Speaker 1: leather bag or whatever. And we know this because oftentimes 954 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,120 Speaker 1: if we occasionally find these things. Oftentimes we'll see that 955 00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,200 Speaker 1: the flake scars have been rubbed and they're polished, and 956 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,240 Speaker 1: it's because they were in a bag with something else 957 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:41,040 Speaker 1: a braiding them. In essence, you can take that large 958 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,000 Speaker 1: platter of stone and you can turn it into anything 959 00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 1: you want, right, So it's an easily transportable form. It's 960 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:51,360 Speaker 1: reduced the weight. You know, it's good stone, and it 961 00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,840 Speaker 1: can be morphed into whatever particular tool that you need. 962 00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,040 Speaker 1: So you don't necessarily want to go to the quarry 963 00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:00,640 Speaker 1: and make really highly specific Okay, a gonna need three 964 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:02,960 Speaker 1: end scrapers, so I'm gonna make them now, I'm gonna 965 00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:07,000 Speaker 1: need for that's all you're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So 966 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:08,800 Speaker 1: why not just take something that you can turn in 967 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,960 Speaker 1: into a number of other different things. And that's probably 968 00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,880 Speaker 1: how they were transporting stuff. And that's called a core. Yeah. 969 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,440 Speaker 1: So the core is basically the stone from which you 970 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,120 Speaker 1: are making other tools. And you guys will find cores 971 00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:25,200 Speaker 1: now and then oh yeah um and in fact um, 972 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,400 Speaker 1: in the case of Mountaineer, we do find court site cores. 973 00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,840 Speaker 1: What we don't find is cortex, and and don't sort 974 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,439 Speaker 1: of associate core with cortex. Cortex is simply the outer 975 00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:40,880 Speaker 1: rind of a block of stone, so when it's been weathered, Um, 976 00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:45,160 Speaker 1: it'll get that. Yeah, okay, well there's a word for 977 00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,160 Speaker 1: that though, right. Cortex is the word c O R 978 00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: T E X another like I want to get that 979 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,880 Speaker 1: kind of man, there's a it'll come to you. It'll 980 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,880 Speaker 1: come to you. Um, we don't find any cortex, which 981 00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,800 Speaker 1: means that they you know, they went to the source, 982 00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,040 Speaker 1: they got a cobble, They busted open the cobble. They 983 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,040 Speaker 1: could see the good stuff inside, so they removed all 984 00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,000 Speaker 1: the junk and then they just carried it back to 985 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,960 Speaker 1: the site and then they used that to make blades 986 00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:14,560 Speaker 1: or scrapers or whatever. And you're not finding the outer 987 00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 1: nasty correct Correctly, they were coming. Yeah, they were coming 988 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,120 Speaker 1: into that place with with stuff that was ready to 989 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,360 Speaker 1: ready to work with. Again, this gets back to your 990 00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 1: thousand feet above the valley floor. The stone sources are 991 00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:28,480 Speaker 1: on the valley floor. Why carry extra weight? I mean, 992 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,880 Speaker 1: I can tell you when we were working there, we 993 00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,040 Speaker 1: would occasionally hike up to the top or run down 994 00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,760 Speaker 1: from the top to the bottom just to see. That 995 00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,440 Speaker 1: was back when my knees worked and I could go 996 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,560 Speaker 1: from you know, hiking to the top would take you know, 997 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,040 Speaker 1: you're at eight hundred eight thousand feet or so, it 998 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,760 Speaker 1: would take about half an hour, uh to sort of 999 00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,240 Speaker 1: make your way up the mountain. I could get down 1000 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,360 Speaker 1: in fifteen minutes running, so, uh, you can, you can 1001 00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,400 Speaker 1: make that trip pretty quickly. Now, of course, if there's 1002 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,520 Speaker 1: snow on the ground, it's going to be longer and 1003 01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:02,720 Speaker 1: everything like that. But they probably had snowshoes, they probably 1004 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,480 Speaker 1: had something that they could get around in the snow. 1005 01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,480 Speaker 1: But we also know that in another area of that 1006 01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Mesa top there was a summer occupation, or what we 1007 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,720 Speaker 1: interpret as a summer occupation. It's very close to the 1008 01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:20,560 Speaker 1: edge of the Mesa and we have um a bunch 1009 01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:26,640 Speaker 1: of um busted up, used up projectile points. I think 1010 01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,840 Speaker 1: we had hunters sitting on the edge, watching the valley 1011 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,880 Speaker 1: floor below and retooling their weaponry and just you know, 1012 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,480 Speaker 1: kind of watching to see who's walking by. You know, 1013 01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,960 Speaker 1: there's cows, you know, they the runway for the Gunnison 1014 01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 1: Crest Debut Airport is right below you, but just off 1015 01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,440 Speaker 1: to the side there, Uh, somebody's got a bunch of 1016 01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:48,680 Speaker 1: cows on the field, and so you know, I could 1017 01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,439 Speaker 1: sit up there from a thousand feet away and yeah, sure, 1018 01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,600 Speaker 1: I can count the number of animals that are down 1019 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,680 Speaker 1: there on the ground. It was a perfect vantage point 1020 01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and it turns out a great place to spend the 1021 01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:03,640 Speaker 1: wind or because you had everything you needed. Did you 1022 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:07,800 Speaker 1: guys find any kind of thing that represents UM weapon 1023 01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:14,440 Speaker 1: types besides stone? Any kind of uh other would besides 1024 01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,680 Speaker 1: the remnants of the tent poles? No? No, And it's 1025 01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,080 Speaker 1: too harsh. It's just too harsh. And the thing is, 1026 01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:26,320 Speaker 1: where you do have sites UM in in northern Mexico, 1027 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,480 Speaker 1: they're they're dry where the climate has been very, very 1028 01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,320 Speaker 1: dry for a long time, you've got good preservation. And 1029 01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,440 Speaker 1: when you have sites like that, and there was a 1030 01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,160 Speaker 1: study done in one of these sites, there's something like 1031 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,920 Speaker 1: for every single item made out of stone, there's twenty 1032 01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,640 Speaker 1: different things made out of wood or bone. And that's 1033 01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:44,640 Speaker 1: just giving you the ratio of how much you're not 1034 01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:47,800 Speaker 1: seeing in these sites because the only thing that's preserving 1035 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:51,280 Speaker 1: is stone and the occasional bits of bone. What's what's 1036 01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:55,000 Speaker 1: like the most interesting source material you've come across that 1037 01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:58,800 Speaker 1: they grabbed some sort of rock and made tools out 1038 01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:00,280 Speaker 1: of it, Like when I look at it back light, 1039 01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:02,320 Speaker 1: I found a few of I'm like, man, that would 1040 01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:08,959 Speaker 1: be perfect. It's um like an extinct squid species leaves 1041 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:13,800 Speaker 1: behind what looks like a female right. Yeah, we're like 1042 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,040 Speaker 1: a like a piece of petrified would Um. Yeah, so 1043 01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,520 Speaker 1: they have there's a there's a material up there that 1044 01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,240 Speaker 1: we haven't quite figured out. It's called opal c t. 1045 01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:27,600 Speaker 1: It's an opal light and it occurs in little tiny bits. 1046 01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,080 Speaker 1: Presumably it occurred in much larger blocks, and it's in 1047 01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:35,600 Speaker 1: and around these houses. It has no obvious functional purpose 1048 01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,520 Speaker 1: that we've been able to discern. Um. We don't know 1049 01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,240 Speaker 1: where it comes from. It's not native to the top 1050 01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:47,880 Speaker 1: of that mesa, but clearly somebody hauled it up on 1051 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:50,200 Speaker 1: top of there, and we have no idea why or 1052 01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,760 Speaker 1: what its purpose was. You know, at first I thought 1053 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,200 Speaker 1: it was maybe some sort of pigment type thing, but 1054 01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,880 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily the case. So I don't know. It's 1055 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,640 Speaker 1: a it's a puzzle to us. Um. We know it's there, 1056 01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:06,560 Speaker 1: but we don't know why. In your dealings with anthropology 1057 01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:09,960 Speaker 1: and antiquities in the American Southwest, do you ever crossed 1058 01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,960 Speaker 1: paths with forest fend We did a whole podcast on 1059 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:16,720 Speaker 1: him once there's some interest in this room about him. Yeah, 1060 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:20,160 Speaker 1: I know. Forest, of of course, just recently passed away. 1061 01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:25,800 Speaker 1: Um yeah, um Forest. Forest was indeed a character, a 1062 01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:31,440 Speaker 1: very interesting character, and um was very supportive of archaeology, 1063 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:42,080 Speaker 1: but also arguably um across some lines if you will. Uh. Yeah, yeah, 1064 01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,920 Speaker 1: Forest basically I think purchased a pueblo and then you know, 1065 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:51,720 Speaker 1: had it excavated. Um, but he had um professional archaeologists 1066 01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:53,880 Speaker 1: excavating it. So it's it's kind of a it's there's 1067 01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,040 Speaker 1: a lot of ambiguity around Forest. I liked Forest. He 1068 01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:01,920 Speaker 1: was a very interesting character. UM. So yeah, that's that's 1069 01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:06,560 Speaker 1: a great question, like where like how do you in 1070 01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:12,560 Speaker 1: in current times like decide on when to excavate something 1071 01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:14,960 Speaker 1: like what what are the factors now? Because it used 1072 01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,320 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, here's a site, We're gonna dig 1073 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,000 Speaker 1: it up and find out everything there is to know. 1074 01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,640 Speaker 1: But now there's a mindset of like, great, we know 1075 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:28,240 Speaker 1: there's a site here, Um, we know of other sites 1076 01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,880 Speaker 1: in the general area. We can draw a lot of conclusions. 1077 01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,560 Speaker 1: The most preserved we can make this site is to 1078 01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:38,480 Speaker 1: not dig it up. Well, that's right, and the reality is, 1079 01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:40,720 Speaker 1: of course is that nobody's making ten thousand year old 1080 01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:45,920 Speaker 1: sits anymore. Right, they're gone their finite Um, are there 1081 01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,720 Speaker 1: more out there? Yeah? Probably? Uh do we need to 1082 01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:52,400 Speaker 1: continue to dig them? Well, it really all depends if 1083 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:56,760 Speaker 1: you know about that time period, you know about that region. 1084 01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:01,320 Speaker 1: What's the point of digging yet an other fulsome site, 1085 01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,080 Speaker 1: for example, because you might find a body and there's 1086 01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,680 Speaker 1: not many bodies. Well, that gets us into a very 1087 01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:13,320 Speaker 1: different set of ethical questions, right Na, Yeah, sorry, Steve Um, Look, 1088 01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:15,520 Speaker 1: I'm well, okay, let's we'll get to that in a sect. Well, 1089 01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:19,280 Speaker 1: it's just it's a great question. Yeah right, No, so um, 1090 01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:22,360 Speaker 1: there are sites that I have excavated that I haven't 1091 01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,880 Speaker 1: fully excavated save a chunk, save a chunk. Well, Fulsome 1092 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,960 Speaker 1: is the best example. Right. There's a certain point when 1093 01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,240 Speaker 1: you're doing excavation and analysis that you sort of hit 1094 01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:36,360 Speaker 1: the point of redundancy. You've learned a whole bunch, but 1095 01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:40,000 Speaker 1: the further and more you dig, you're not really learning 1096 01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,280 Speaker 1: that much more. At that point you should stop because 1097 01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,240 Speaker 1: at that point, all you're doing is adding to the 1098 01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:47,959 Speaker 1: collection that you don't really need because it's not telling 1099 01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,120 Speaker 1: you anything new. On the other hand, somebody could come 1100 01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:54,400 Speaker 1: along to fulsome seventy years after me, as I came 1101 01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,720 Speaker 1: along seventy years after the first excavation, and I learned 1102 01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,360 Speaker 1: a hell of a lot that they didn't learn because well, 1103 01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:04,360 Speaker 1: they were just paleontologists hauling bison bones out of the ground. Right, 1104 01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:07,120 Speaker 1: So if I leave a chunk of that there and 1105 01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,479 Speaker 1: I did, somebody coming along seventy years later can figure 1106 01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,040 Speaker 1: out all the things that I did wrong because the 1107 01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,080 Speaker 1: questions and they might have better, they might different questions, 1108 01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,680 Speaker 1: just as I did after the first one. Um Neanderthal 1109 01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:23,360 Speaker 1: A Right, it's like we can't like it seems like 1110 01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:27,400 Speaker 1: it's monthly at this point, there's some new thing about Neandertal. 1111 01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,560 Speaker 1: It's all. It's all the genetics, it's all the ancient DNA. 1112 01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:36,640 Speaker 1: But to Steve's question about a body, so um, we've 1113 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,760 Speaker 1: learned a tremendous amount about human population history of the 1114 01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:44,920 Speaker 1: America's in literally just the last seven years, because it 1115 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:49,680 Speaker 1: was just seven years ago that ESK. Wheeler Slives group 1116 01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:53,680 Speaker 1: of which I'm a part of, UH provided the first 1117 01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,160 Speaker 1: sequence of a Clovis individual. So we have a genome 1118 01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:03,880 Speaker 1: of a Clovis person from the antics in that oh yeah, 1119 01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,919 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, because that boy's name is zik One, right, yeah, 1120 01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,280 Speaker 1: it's it's near will Sall, how far as will saw 1121 01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:14,120 Speaker 1: from here far? So in that seven years, we've sequenced 1122 01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:18,280 Speaker 1: and other labs have as well a number of ancient genomes. 1123 01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,560 Speaker 1: And these are things that I mean, look, there's a 1124 01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:23,720 Speaker 1: lot I can learn as an archaeologist. I can learn 1125 01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,040 Speaker 1: about what people hunted. I can learn about how far 1126 01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,600 Speaker 1: they traveled across the landscape. I can learn about how 1127 01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,720 Speaker 1: they responded to different environments, how they were impacted by 1128 01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,360 Speaker 1: different environments, what their impacts were on different environments. The 1129 01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,480 Speaker 1: one thing I can't do as an archaeologist is population history. 1130 01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:40,800 Speaker 1: If you've got an artifact over you know, in this 1131 01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:42,720 Speaker 1: site over here, and I've got an artifact in that 1132 01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,160 Speaker 1: side over here, and they kind of look alike, we 1133 01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:47,160 Speaker 1: might want to say, oh, well, they're part of the 1134 01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:50,680 Speaker 1: same population, But we would have no idea, right because 1135 01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,439 Speaker 1: artifacts can look alike for a variety of reasons, not 1136 01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:57,840 Speaker 1: necessarily just because they're historically related. If you've got a 1137 01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,400 Speaker 1: genome and I've got a genome, I can tell you 1138 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,000 Speaker 1: precisely how closely they're related. I can look at I 1139 01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:06,160 Speaker 1: can look at patterns of admixture. You know, we know 1140 01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:08,520 Speaker 1: when different groups got together because we see gene flow, 1141 01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,680 Speaker 1: just as all of us have a bit of neandertal 1142 01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,720 Speaker 1: DNA and US, right, so we know there was well 1143 01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:19,960 Speaker 1: sex between early modern humans and neandertals. So yeah, there's 1144 01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:25,559 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount to be learned from ancient skeletons. The 1145 01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,800 Speaker 1: flip side is there's some ethical issues and concerns when 1146 01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:34,240 Speaker 1: you're doing genetic research with populations, regardless of you know, 1147 01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,640 Speaker 1: sort of where they are and who they are. Um. 1148 01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,600 Speaker 1: You know, there's a certain amount of protocols that you know, 1149 01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,360 Speaker 1: one goes through to get permission to do genetic research 1150 01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:45,679 Speaker 1: because you can learn a lot, not all of it good, 1151 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,560 Speaker 1: about a population. It's a particularly challenging issue here in 1152 01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:54,200 Speaker 1: the Americas because the relationship between the indigenous Native American 1153 01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:58,439 Speaker 1: communities and the scientific communities have not always been good 1154 01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:02,560 Speaker 1: because you know, on the scientific side, we have a 1155 01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,280 Speaker 1: lot of sins to atone for you know, for the 1156 01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:08,920 Speaker 1: first hundred or two hundred fifty years of anthropology, we 1157 01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:13,759 Speaker 1: have anthropologists, you know, having skulls sent to them from 1158 01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:18,320 Speaker 1: Native American um battle sites right where the U. S. 1159 01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:20,120 Speaker 1: Army would go in and just sort of gather up 1160 01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of the heads and shipping back to Washington. 1161 01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:25,800 Speaker 1: Uh So there's a long and kind of sorted and 1162 01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:30,800 Speaker 1: unfortunate history in the relationship between Native Americans and you know, 1163 01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:35,120 Speaker 1: the scientific community and getting into genes, getting into d 1164 01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:42,519 Speaker 1: n A is a particularly invasives the wrong word, but 1165 01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,080 Speaker 1: it can be viewed in that way. It can be 1166 01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:47,840 Speaker 1: you as a contradictory, right. Well, I mean what it 1167 01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,120 Speaker 1: is is it's you know, it's taking your essence, it's 1168 01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,240 Speaker 1: taking your d n A. And I know a lot 1169 01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:54,720 Speaker 1: of a lot of people are concerned about, well, how 1170 01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:57,040 Speaker 1: much do people know about me from my genes? How 1171 01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:58,720 Speaker 1: much do they know about me from my d n A? 1172 01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,320 Speaker 1: And so you a hatch that to this sort of 1173 01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:04,719 Speaker 1: difficult history between the scientific community in the Native American 1174 01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:08,120 Speaker 1: community and their feelings about their DNA being part of 1175 01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,519 Speaker 1: somebody else's study. You know, we understand our history. We 1176 01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:14,080 Speaker 1: don't necessarily need you telling us stories about who we 1177 01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:16,040 Speaker 1: are and where we come from. I think you'd be 1178 01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:17,639 Speaker 1: able to speak to this better me. But there's also 1179 01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,840 Speaker 1: an issue of of defending a narrative against people who 1180 01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:23,519 Speaker 1: want to like un see a narrative like if you 1181 01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,479 Speaker 1: remember with kennewick Man, some guy took a look at 1182 01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,000 Speaker 1: the nine thousand year old school that comes out of 1183 01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,080 Speaker 1: the Columbia, right, He's like, Hi, that looks like a 1184 01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:32,960 Speaker 1: European to me. Yeah, I got a white guy with 1185 01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:34,880 Speaker 1: a spear point in him. That's exactly what. And then 1186 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:38,200 Speaker 1: you're like, guess the first Americans weren't who we thought 1187 01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:41,240 Speaker 1: exactly well, in fact, good old Europeans it was. It 1188 01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,920 Speaker 1: was Esky's group. It was our group that in fact 1189 01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,840 Speaker 1: sequence the kind of wig genome, and we showed that 1190 01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,559 Speaker 1: in fact, he's native American through and through. Okay, so 1191 01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:55,400 Speaker 1: it's a and you know, we always ask permission to 1192 01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:58,120 Speaker 1: get a genetic example from the living, But how do 1193 01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:00,599 Speaker 1: you how do you deal with the dead? Would imagine 1194 01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:02,840 Speaker 1: if you're talking about something that's twelve thousand years old, 1195 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,519 Speaker 1: I don't know that someone has a real legitimate claim 1196 01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:09,000 Speaker 1: on that. Well, now see, there's a really interesting would 1197 01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:13,720 Speaker 1: be interesting for me to go and and and argue that. Uh, 1198 01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:17,480 Speaker 1: for me to for me to take offense about excavations 1199 01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:23,200 Speaker 1: of Italians in Italy that were from even a thousand 1200 01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:24,920 Speaker 1: years ago would be a stretch for me to act 1201 01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,559 Speaker 1: like I had input on that. But my ancestors are 1202 01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,639 Speaker 1: you know, some of my ancestors are from Sicily, So 1203 01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:34,080 Speaker 1: is that my business? If you're looking at something that's 1204 01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:36,320 Speaker 1: twelve tho years old, you're looking at groups that no 1205 01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:41,960 Speaker 1: doubt went through radical migrations, influxes of new people. Because 1206 01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:45,519 Speaker 1: someone's in Colorado now, or if someone's standing in Colorado 1207 01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:48,280 Speaker 1: twelve years ago, I think it'd be a pretty dubious 1208 01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:53,040 Speaker 1: assumption to say that that became the Northern Cheyenne or 1209 01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:57,400 Speaker 1: the you like, who knows, well, so, um, somebody twelve 1210 01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:00,960 Speaker 1: thousand years ago could have no answer, no ascendants at all, 1211 01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:04,960 Speaker 1: or they could have thousands, and we won't know unless 1212 01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:09,559 Speaker 1: we basically do the sort of before and after Florida 1213 01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:12,720 Speaker 1: exactly right. And and so the question also becomes, at 1214 01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,960 Speaker 1: what point, when you go back into the past, does 1215 01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:19,160 Speaker 1: something stop being tribal and just become human? Right? You 1216 01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:21,920 Speaker 1: know that this is in a sense, I don't know where, 1217 01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:24,639 Speaker 1: but I feel like that happened at twelve tho years ago. 1218 01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:26,519 Speaker 1: I don't I wouldn't want to be the guy that 1219 01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:29,600 Speaker 1: picks the number, but to me that look at the 1220 01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:35,920 Speaker 1: histories right, like Aboriginal oral histories Australia. They you know, 1221 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:40,679 Speaker 1: they have this case of being able to talk about 1222 01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:44,400 Speaker 1: their history for thousands and thousands of years right, without question, 1223 01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:49,760 Speaker 1: without question. Oral history is remarkably uh strong, back to 1224 01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:52,120 Speaker 1: a certain point you know where you're you know, at 1225 01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:54,360 Speaker 1: that point you're just sort of getting the distant echoes 1226 01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:56,639 Speaker 1: and you know, how how valid is that are how 1227 01:12:56,680 --> 01:13:00,360 Speaker 1: reliable is it? The all of this is now sort 1228 01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:04,280 Speaker 1: of part and parcel of um NAGPRA, which is the 1229 01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:09,479 Speaker 1: Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which was intended 1230 01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:11,800 Speaker 1: to write a lot of those wrongs by saying that 1231 01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:15,640 Speaker 1: human skeletal material, which is simply sitting in boxes in 1232 01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:20,840 Speaker 1: museums and universities, needs to be returned to the descendant communities. 1233 01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,559 Speaker 1: And how do you determine lineal descent, you know, over 1234 01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:28,000 Speaker 1: thousands just based on geography. Well, it's based on about 1235 01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:30,400 Speaker 1: ten different criteria, of which geography is one of them. 1236 01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:33,680 Speaker 1: And that's what made Kennewick so problematic was that here 1237 01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:39,000 Speaker 1: you've got an ancient individual who's talk about tell people 1238 01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:43,280 Speaker 1: what is okay. So kenna Wick was a human skeleton 1239 01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:46,680 Speaker 1: found in nine six on the banks of the Columbia 1240 01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:49,559 Speaker 1: River fourth of July or something, right, Yeah, it was 1241 01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:54,040 Speaker 1: the speedboat races that they have um on the Columbia 1242 01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:57,360 Speaker 1: and a couple of guys, a couple of twenties some things. 1243 01:13:57,439 --> 01:13:59,599 Speaker 1: We're trying to sneak in to watch the boat races. 1244 01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:01,200 Speaker 1: So they were walking along the river bank and they 1245 01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:02,800 Speaker 1: were going to climb the fence and get into the 1246 01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:05,800 Speaker 1: area to watch the races, and you know, one of 1247 01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:08,479 Speaker 1: them stepped on some of the bones. So they call 1248 01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:10,559 Speaker 1: in the corners. Right away, You're thinking it's a murder victim. 1249 01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:12,920 Speaker 1: Well exactly, So they called the coroner, and the coroner 1250 01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:17,920 Speaker 1: comes out there with um, a local archaeologist forensic anthropologist 1251 01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:19,840 Speaker 1: named Well. So he was already thinking this could be 1252 01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,599 Speaker 1: not but recently, this could not be a recent murderer. 1253 01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:26,000 Speaker 1: I think. I think what they what they would often 1254 01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:27,559 Speaker 1: do is turn the bones over to him and say, 1255 01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,759 Speaker 1: you know, tell us a story about how this person died. Uh. 1256 01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:34,559 Speaker 1: And so that's when he discovered the stone point, and 1257 01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:37,120 Speaker 1: then they radiocarbon dated it. That's when he gave the 1258 01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:38,640 Speaker 1: quote to the New York Times that said, I've got 1259 01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:41,160 Speaker 1: a white guy with a stone point in them because 1260 01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,080 Speaker 1: based on his look at the skull. It looked like 1261 01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:48,600 Speaker 1: a European. Isn't that called cranial morphology or something that's 1262 01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:53,920 Speaker 1: not even in the next step New York Times. It's undisciplined, 1263 01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:56,160 Speaker 1: is what it is? That that that whole that whole 1264 01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:59,680 Speaker 1: school thought about measuring relative These relative measurements on your 1265 01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:03,840 Speaker 1: skull very problematic, very problematic, because you know, the skull 1266 01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:06,680 Speaker 1: is incredibly plastic in an anatomical sense. It just it 1267 01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:11,680 Speaker 1: morphs over time and in very complex ways. Anyway, so 1268 01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:13,960 Speaker 1: they get a radio carbon date back on it, and 1269 01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:16,599 Speaker 1: suddenly you know, you've got a European on the banks 1270 01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:19,360 Speaker 1: of the Columbia. Excuse me, it's hard not to get 1271 01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:25,160 Speaker 1: cocked up about the banks of the Columbia. UM. They've 1272 01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:30,760 Speaker 1: got somebody here, UM who's not Native American. Well, uh, 1273 01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:34,719 Speaker 1: that that triggered a long running lawsuit several million dollars 1274 01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:38,080 Speaker 1: of you know, US tax dollars because the banks of 1275 01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,920 Speaker 1: the Columbia were controlled by UM Army Corps of Engineers, 1276 01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:44,560 Speaker 1: Department of Interior, you know, sort of picked up a 1277 01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:48,720 Speaker 1: portion of the U. The lawsuit bringing in their archaeologists. 1278 01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:51,479 Speaker 1: The long and short of it is is that the 1279 01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:56,040 Speaker 1: UM it went into the court and then into appeals court, 1280 01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:58,640 Speaker 1: and they said that, well, this isn't an end of 1281 01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:04,960 Speaker 1: American because it doesn't look one, and because it's that old. Well, um, 1282 01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:08,960 Speaker 1: so they did this analysis um of the skeletal material. 1283 01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:12,800 Speaker 1: I know, I know, we're into a weird um semantics thing, 1284 01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:19,439 Speaker 1: but this doesn't Let's let's say that had been true, 1285 01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,280 Speaker 1: they would draw into question what is a Native American? 1286 01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:28,559 Speaker 1: M Yeah, well what they what they decided was that 1287 01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't and therefore NAG he wasn't and 1288 01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:36,920 Speaker 1: therefore NAG did not apply. So just based on just 1289 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:41,439 Speaker 1: based on the appearance of the skull mhm, yeah, yeah, 1290 01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:45,880 Speaker 1: problematic science. And so Kennewick hit nagper right where it's 1291 01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:47,640 Speaker 1: weakest for just the reasons that you brought up a 1292 01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,800 Speaker 1: few moments ago. At that antiquity, how can you tell 1293 01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,599 Speaker 1: if in in in what way he's related. So one 1294 01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,400 Speaker 1: of the things that's come about in the last years 1295 01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:05,080 Speaker 1: since then is that NAGPRA now pays more attention to um. 1296 01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:09,960 Speaker 1: If you can't sort of determine lineal descent, then who 1297 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:13,599 Speaker 1: were the tribes that live in the region, right? Uh? 1298 01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:18,720 Speaker 1: And so it's but we were able. We obtained a 1299 01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:22,280 Speaker 1: piece of a fingerbone of Kennewick. And this is Eski's team. 1300 01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,559 Speaker 1: I'm just the archaeologist with him, so I kind of 1301 01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,160 Speaker 1: provide the context and they do all the really heavy 1302 01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:32,280 Speaker 1: lifting in terms of the genetic work. And we were able, 1303 01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:37,479 Speaker 1: fortunately to obtain DNA samples from a number of the 1304 01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:44,000 Speaker 1: Callville tribe, the Confederated Tribe Callville, and they provided DNA 1305 01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:47,160 Speaker 1: samples that made it possible to sort of look at 1306 01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,839 Speaker 1: Kennewick relative to one of the tribes. In the Pacific Northwest. 1307 01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:52,840 Speaker 1: There were five tribes that had claimed Kennewick as a 1308 01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:57,439 Speaker 1: potential ancestor of theirs. So we did our sequencing, we 1309 01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:03,960 Speaker 1: produced our results, UM and it was a really interesting UM, 1310 01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:07,760 Speaker 1: a really interesting event because we published the paper in 1311 01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:11,680 Speaker 1: Nature in two thousand fifteen, major scientific journal, and they 1312 01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:13,559 Speaker 1: wanted to do a press conference because kind of Wei 1313 01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:16,280 Speaker 1: had been so controversial. They said, you know, we should 1314 01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:19,439 Speaker 1: really do a big announcement. And Eski called me and 1315 01:18:19,439 --> 01:18:21,799 Speaker 1: he said, We're going to do a press conference in London, 1316 01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:25,840 Speaker 1: and I said, nobody in London cares. Let's do it 1317 01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:29,920 Speaker 1: in Seattle. And so we did. Uh. And so that summer. 1318 01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:32,040 Speaker 1: I was I was in the field somewhere and I 1319 01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:33,920 Speaker 1: just got on a plane, went to Seattle, met up 1320 01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:36,639 Speaker 1: with Sky and Morton Rasmussen, who had done a lot 1321 01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:40,720 Speaker 1: of the work, and a number of the representatives of 1322 01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:45,920 Speaker 1: each of the five tribes showed up. We um, we 1323 01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:48,880 Speaker 1: gave our results, and one of the reporters at the 1324 01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:51,559 Speaker 1: time in the room said, well, what are the what 1325 01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:56,720 Speaker 1: are the tribes think? And Eski said, well, you've got 1326 01:18:56,760 --> 01:18:59,800 Speaker 1: representatives of them here, why don't you just ask and 1327 01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,479 Speaker 1: and after another representative each of the five tribes got 1328 01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:05,400 Speaker 1: up and talked about what it meant to have Kennewick 1329 01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:08,920 Speaker 1: shown to be a Native American. And it was really profound. 1330 01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:12,000 Speaker 1: I mean, we just gave the results. They gave the results, 1331 01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:14,760 Speaker 1: meaning they were able to say, look, you know, we 1332 01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:17,320 Speaker 1: felt very strongly about this from the get go that 1333 01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:21,360 Speaker 1: Kennewick was a Native American. We've been deeply unhappy and 1334 01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:23,920 Speaker 1: in fact resentful of all of the stuff that's been 1335 01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:28,880 Speaker 1: surrounding Kennewick, the lawsuit and everything like that. Um, they 1336 01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:33,960 Speaker 1: didn't appreciate, well, that's harsh. They wished it hadn't had 1337 01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:36,280 Speaker 1: to come to you know, all of the science and 1338 01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:38,559 Speaker 1: the genetics and everything like that, because they felt they 1339 01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:41,640 Speaker 1: understood what the answer was all along, but they were 1340 01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:47,880 Speaker 1: at least glad for that. So our results were obviously published. 1341 01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:53,439 Speaker 1: Um the uh the results were then checked by a 1342 01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:58,120 Speaker 1: group at the University of Chicago, and things just snowballed 1343 01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:01,720 Speaker 1: right after that. UM, I think the Senator from Washington 1344 01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,559 Speaker 1: put in a piece of legislation that said, Okay, it's done. 1345 01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:07,439 Speaker 1: Kennewick has been out of the ground long enough. It's 1346 01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:09,520 Speaker 1: time for him to be returned to the tribes and reburied. 1347 01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:17,120 Speaker 1: And uh. President Obama signed the legislation and literally Kennewick. 1348 01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:22,360 Speaker 1: A funny side note at the at the news conference, 1349 01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:27,720 Speaker 1: the reporter when the tribe said, we've agreed, as even 1350 01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:30,439 Speaker 1: though we we have our differences among the five of us, 1351 01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:33,000 Speaker 1: we've agreed that we're going to jointly rebury Kennewick, and 1352 01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:34,320 Speaker 1: one of the reporters said, where are you going to 1353 01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:38,800 Speaker 1: rebury it? I thought, do you really think they're gonna 1354 01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:42,680 Speaker 1: tell you after all of this, they're gonna tell you 1355 01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:45,920 Speaker 1: so that you can go look. Uh No, they said, no, 1356 01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,200 Speaker 1: well we're gonna this will be a private ceremony. So 1357 01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:53,400 Speaker 1: was there um, what was what was learned from the 1358 01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:59,760 Speaker 1: from the genetic sequencing of Kennewick, Well, in the comparison 1359 01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:03,680 Speaker 1: with with with indigenous groups that know what, the indigenous 1360 01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:06,519 Speaker 1: groups that provided samples. Okay, so what we learned was 1361 01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:10,200 Speaker 1: Kennewick is or was a part of a population that 1362 01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:14,040 Speaker 1: was ancestral to these populations. Could we draw a direct 1363 01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:16,880 Speaker 1: ancestry line. No, we could not. We would need a 1364 01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:21,439 Speaker 1: hell a lot more modern day samples to sort of 1365 01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:26,080 Speaker 1: figure out. So that didn't preclude other groups being related 1366 01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:29,599 Speaker 1: to Kennewick, but it showed that at least the tribe 1367 01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:34,080 Speaker 1: that provided the samples was in some fashion related to Kennewick, 1368 01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:39,600 Speaker 1: more related than someone in Coastal Alaska. We don't know. 1369 01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:41,200 Speaker 1: We don't have a we don't have a genome from 1370 01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:45,599 Speaker 1: coastal Alaska. Uh yeah, But the key thing was was 1371 01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:51,599 Speaker 1: unequivocally Native American, despite what his head shape was. Uh 1372 01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:57,640 Speaker 1: So get into anzik mhm, like talking about who like 1373 01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:03,040 Speaker 1: the specimen anzick one. So an zick Um was a 1374 01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:07,320 Speaker 1: really important study because what it showed us for the 1375 01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:12,280 Speaker 1: first time was that the Native American population, the ancestral 1376 01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:16,719 Speaker 1: Native American population that came into the America's got south 1377 01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:22,040 Speaker 1: of the big continental ice sheets, soon thereafter split into 1378 01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:26,360 Speaker 1: two major lineages. One of the lineages stayed up north 1379 01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:28,719 Speaker 1: and the other made it all the way to Tierra 1380 01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:32,639 Speaker 1: del Fuego. We call those Northern Native Americans and Southern 1381 01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:35,400 Speaker 1: Native Americans. And Anzick is actually a Southern Native American, 1382 01:22:35,439 --> 01:22:38,200 Speaker 1: even though of course he's hair in Montana, right. But 1383 01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:42,080 Speaker 1: descendants of Anzec make it all the way down through 1384 01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:48,320 Speaker 1: the hemisphere and rapidly. We have now genomes from other 1385 01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:51,439 Speaker 1: places in North America and a key one in south 1386 01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:57,640 Speaker 1: eastern Brazil, which indicate a very close relationship to the 1387 01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:01,360 Speaker 1: population of which Anzick was a part. So again this 1388 01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:05,280 Speaker 1: gets back to the issue of populations exploding. People doing 1389 01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:09,120 Speaker 1: really well. Turns out they're just hoofing it. They're moving 1390 01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:13,280 Speaker 1: really great distances and are being very successful at it. 1391 01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:18,280 Speaker 1: M HM. Was that that boy was buried with Ochre 1392 01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:21,800 Speaker 1: and Clovis points and things. Who holds those Clovis points Now? 1393 01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:26,600 Speaker 1: I do not know the answer to that, UM, but 1394 01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:31,719 Speaker 1: the individual himself has been reburied MHM. After the study 1395 01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:36,599 Speaker 1: Sarah and Zick, who's father I understand was the one 1396 01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:40,040 Speaker 1: who discovered it. UM actually was was one of the 1397 01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:43,960 Speaker 1: key persons who sort of triggered the re analysis of 1398 01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,280 Speaker 1: Antick and said, you know, she she felt that, you know, 1399 01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:49,519 Speaker 1: we shouldn't just have these bones just sitting around. Let's 1400 01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:52,360 Speaker 1: let's let's be done with this. Let's learn what we 1401 01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:59,439 Speaker 1: can and then let's rebury. Uh. You have the first 1402 01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:01,800 Speaker 1: book I had of years and for men, it sat 1403 01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:04,599 Speaker 1: my coffee table for many years. Was your Folsome book. 1404 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:07,000 Speaker 1: I think you did Foalsome first, right in terms of 1405 01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:10,439 Speaker 1: your big like popular coffee table books. I wouldn't have 1406 01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:12,120 Speaker 1: thought of that as a coffee table book, but I'm 1407 01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:15,080 Speaker 1: glad you found room for it on yours. Well by that, 1408 01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:19,960 Speaker 1: I mean large format color photography. Yeah, okay, okay, okay, 1409 01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:21,800 Speaker 1: I don't know what the hell is that's that's that 1410 01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:24,360 Speaker 1: is a coffee table book. It was all black and 1411 01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:27,800 Speaker 1: white pictures. Really, yeah, sorry, it's got a color photo. 1412 01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:31,759 Speaker 1: Well that in your memory memories are always in color, right, Steven. 1413 01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:34,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, but I have the damn book. Okay, what 1414 01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:36,720 Speaker 1: are you called? You described the book to me. It's 1415 01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:40,479 Speaker 1: a big gas it's it's a large study of the 1416 01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:43,400 Speaker 1: Falsome site. Yeah, not a coffee Oh you're taking insult 1417 01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:53,960 Speaker 1: that I called that okay his magnum opus. Sure, and 1418 01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:56,360 Speaker 1: then you did. I'm glad you bought the book First 1419 01:24:56,360 --> 01:25:00,439 Speaker 1: People in a New Worlds, which which is that its color? 1420 01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:03,599 Speaker 1: Now that book, that book lays out the whole damn deal. 1421 01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:06,720 Speaker 1: That's the whole damn deal. I mean, it's just the 1422 01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:11,519 Speaker 1: title says it all. First People's in a New World 1423 01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:15,080 Speaker 1: If you're interested in ice age hunters and clovis and 1424 01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:20,000 Speaker 1: killing mammoth or not or not, that's the important This 1425 01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:21,800 Speaker 1: is your book. And then a decade went by and 1426 01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:23,120 Speaker 1: you had to update it, so you got a new 1427 01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:25,120 Speaker 1: one coming out. Well, listen, I had to update. I 1428 01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:28,439 Speaker 1: want to get a full signed collection of your well okay, okay, um, 1429 01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:30,719 Speaker 1: do you want the fulsome points with him? Yes, okay, 1430 01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:35,680 Speaker 1: so um. That book was actually almost obsolete as soon 1431 01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:37,680 Speaker 1: as it came out First People's in two thousand nine. 1432 01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:41,240 Speaker 1: And the reason was in two thousand nine, I could 1433 01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:46,120 Speaker 1: see ancient genomes on the horizon. I knew, you know, 1434 01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:48,519 Speaker 1: because in those days, the genetic information that we were 1435 01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:52,600 Speaker 1: getting was extraordinarily limited. We hadn't quite broken through the 1436 01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:55,960 Speaker 1: barrier of getting genome wide data. All we were getting 1437 01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,400 Speaker 1: were mitochondrial DNA and y chromosome DNA, and just to 1438 01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:01,880 Speaker 1: give the really version of it, it's only telling you 1439 01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,760 Speaker 1: about a single ancestor on your mother's side and your 1440 01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:08,760 Speaker 1: father's side. The genome tells you about all the people. Well, 1441 01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,439 Speaker 1: there's a there's a whole lot of complications to that statement, 1442 01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:14,200 Speaker 1: but it tells you about thousands of ancestors that you have, 1443 01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:18,439 Speaker 1: whereas mitochondrial and y chromosome DNA only a single ancestor 1444 01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:22,080 Speaker 1: a piece. I knew that genome wide studies were coming 1445 01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:25,519 Speaker 1: when I was writing First People's I knew that we 1446 01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:29,200 Speaker 1: would get ancient DNA, but it was still I mean, 1447 01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:32,520 Speaker 1: I didn't know how far off it was in the future. Um, 1448 01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:34,800 Speaker 1: But I published the book and literally, you know, the 1449 01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:37,240 Speaker 1: book comes out in two thousand nine, in two thousand ten, 1450 01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:40,240 Speaker 1: is the first ancient genome published? Yeah? But was anything 1451 01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:43,600 Speaker 1: in the book down't? I mean, I haven't read it 1452 01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:45,160 Speaker 1: a long time. I mean I read, I read the 1453 01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:48,360 Speaker 1: whole damn book. But was anything in there flat out 1454 01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:51,679 Speaker 1: contradicted or was it just missing explanation that you would 1455 01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:53,920 Speaker 1: have liked to have included? Do you really want me 1456 01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:55,680 Speaker 1: to air the dirty laundry and why I had to 1457 01:26:55,680 --> 01:27:00,400 Speaker 1: write a new edition And sort of quietly, I guess 1458 01:27:00,439 --> 01:27:03,960 Speaker 1: that question was anything in there? Was it just that you, 1459 01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:08,640 Speaker 1: let's say you were gonna you were trying to um, 1460 01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:11,960 Speaker 1: you're trying to publish the alphabet R A to Z 1461 01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:15,760 Speaker 1: and you did A to X perfectly, and then they 1462 01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,400 Speaker 1: add y and Z and you're like, darn, yeah, I'm 1463 01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:21,000 Speaker 1: gonna do a new one has y and z. Or 1464 01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:23,360 Speaker 1: was it that you had the whole alphabet wrong? Well, 1465 01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:25,960 Speaker 1: I'd like to think I had most of the alphabet right. Um. 1466 01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:29,400 Speaker 1: There were things that um, I have changed and changed 1467 01:27:29,439 --> 01:27:33,559 Speaker 1: significantly in the new edition. But the real, uh, the 1468 01:27:33,800 --> 01:27:38,439 Speaker 1: real novel parts are the last ten years of the 1469 01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:42,880 Speaker 1: genetic work. There's been just a huge amount of information 1470 01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:47,000 Speaker 1: that's come out about population history, but there's been a 1471 01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:51,519 Speaker 1: lot of changes in other sections about sea level change. 1472 01:27:52,120 --> 01:27:56,439 Speaker 1: There's a bunch more sites that have come out there 1473 01:27:56,479 --> 01:28:00,080 Speaker 1: as being especially old, sort of so called preclue of 1474 01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:04,799 Speaker 1: his sites. UM. So yeah, there's a lot that's new. 1475 01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:08,160 Speaker 1: But the real, the real push, the real impetus for 1476 01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:11,880 Speaker 1: me to do the new addition was the genetics, because 1477 01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:15,840 Speaker 1: I've been heavily involved in that pretty much almost since 1478 01:28:16,479 --> 01:28:20,880 Speaker 1: the book came out working with Willerslevski Willerslev and his group. 1479 01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:23,560 Speaker 1: So I've been basically I've had a seat at the 1480 01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:26,400 Speaker 1: table watching all of this stuff unfold. And so when 1481 01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,200 Speaker 1: I looked at the book, um, I thought, you know, jeez, 1482 01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:33,760 Speaker 1: this is really dated. Uh, and people are getting you know, 1483 01:28:33,840 --> 01:28:37,679 Speaker 1: circa two thousand eight when I wrote it the view then, 1484 01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:40,439 Speaker 1: and it's just an terribly incomplete We were definitely missing 1485 01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:43,840 Speaker 1: Y and Z in the alphabet. What's that book coming out? 1486 01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:46,720 Speaker 1: Both of them? So both of them were supposed to 1487 01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:48,280 Speaker 1: be out a year or so ago, but as we 1488 01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:51,400 Speaker 1: all know, uh, two thousand twenty was the year time 1489 01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:56,120 Speaker 1: stood still and nothing happened, um because of the pandemic 1490 01:28:56,880 --> 01:28:59,880 Speaker 1: and so everything just ground to a halt. But both 1491 01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:01,880 Speaker 1: then will be out one in June. This is the 1492 01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:04,240 Speaker 1: Mountaineer Book will be out in June, and the new 1493 01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:06,840 Speaker 1: First People's Book will be out in July. Now, why 1494 01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:10,400 Speaker 1: did you not roll the Mountaineer information into Oh, there's 1495 01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:13,120 Speaker 1: some of it in the First People's Book, so one 1496 01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:15,439 Speaker 1: can get a good sense of that site. In the 1497 01:29:15,439 --> 01:29:29,560 Speaker 1: First People's Book, did you cover the Cooper's Ferry? Idaho? 1498 01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:33,960 Speaker 1: I do, I do? That's the new one. Yeah, oh yeah, no, 1499 01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:38,160 Speaker 1: I well, because of the pandemic, um I spent I 1500 01:29:38,160 --> 01:29:41,120 Speaker 1: didn't go out in the field. In I spent a 1501 01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:43,320 Speaker 1: lot of time writing, and I spent a lot of 1502 01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:46,599 Speaker 1: time riding, right, you know, because you can only write 1503 01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,240 Speaker 1: for you know, ten fourteen hours a day, and you 1504 01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:51,280 Speaker 1: just got to get on your bicycle and burn thirty 1505 01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:55,599 Speaker 1: or forty miles just to sort of do something. So yeah, 1506 01:29:55,800 --> 01:29:59,040 Speaker 1: I was actually updating the book because nothing was happening 1507 01:29:59,080 --> 01:30:01,479 Speaker 1: with it, so I just kept heading material to it. 1508 01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:04,759 Speaker 1: I'm not sure the publisher was all that thrilled. Because 1509 01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:07,040 Speaker 1: can I can I squeeze this in? Can I? Can 1510 01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:09,599 Speaker 1: I ask you about what what you think of the 1511 01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:15,640 Speaker 1: um the stone samples like the possible origin points of 1512 01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:18,599 Speaker 1: the stone samples found it at Cooper's Ferry? So one, 1513 01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:21,720 Speaker 1: do you want you better explain what you're talking about? Okay? So, um, 1514 01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:26,040 Speaker 1: do you mind if I let the doctor? The doctor 1515 01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:29,479 Speaker 1: will see you know, So cal Um, I think what 1516 01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:33,280 Speaker 1: you're referring to are the projectile points that they argue 1517 01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:39,120 Speaker 1: have affinities to ones from northern Japan that you're making. Yeah, ah, 1518 01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:44,080 Speaker 1: they never quit do it? Well? Okay, let me let me. 1519 01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:47,040 Speaker 1: Let me first start by saying uh, and then the 1520 01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:50,000 Speaker 1: other shoe will drop in a minute. Um. The site 1521 01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:55,679 Speaker 1: is exquisitely excavated. Uh. Lauren Davis is a terrific archaeologist. UM. 1522 01:30:56,280 --> 01:30:59,080 Speaker 1: And the dates on the site, you know, there's been 1523 01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:02,880 Speaker 1: some put back on it, but UM, I think that 1524 01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:05,400 Speaker 1: site falls in in the range of a whole bunch 1525 01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:07,120 Speaker 1: of other sites that we have in the Americas that 1526 01:31:07,200 --> 01:31:10,519 Speaker 1: sort of date around fifteen and a half thousand or 1527 01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:13,559 Speaker 1: so years ago. Um. It's an old site that that 1528 01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:18,600 Speaker 1: part I get old site. Yeah. Well, and and in 1529 01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:24,439 Speaker 1: controversial to some people because for for the location, right, 1530 01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:26,920 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it could be so old that it 1531 01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:30,800 Speaker 1: should be completely under ice A. No, no, no, um, 1532 01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:35,719 Speaker 1: not at that point. No. UM. But the UM, Well, 1533 01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:39,400 Speaker 1: so you've got this site at fifteen five, You've got 1534 01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:42,599 Speaker 1: other sites around that's sort of same chronological ballpark fifteen 1535 01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:46,120 Speaker 1: five to fifteen and and it actually matches up pretty 1536 01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:49,200 Speaker 1: nicely with the genetic evidence, because we've got genetic evidence 1537 01:31:49,200 --> 01:31:52,679 Speaker 1: that we've got these populations splitting out and coming into 1538 01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:55,320 Speaker 1: the America's around fifteen and a half or sixteen thousand. 1539 01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:57,439 Speaker 1: So we're starting to get actually a really nice consistent 1540 01:31:57,479 --> 01:32:00,880 Speaker 1: story about the people in process. The the part where 1541 01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:04,639 Speaker 1: I sort of depart from the um. The argument that 1542 01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:09,080 Speaker 1: Lauren Davis and colleagues have made is tying it to 1543 01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:13,559 Speaker 1: northern Japan and the sort of paleolithic occupation in that 1544 01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:16,360 Speaker 1: part of the world. And they're basing it on similarities 1545 01:32:16,439 --> 01:32:20,080 Speaker 1: in the projectile points in the spear points. And the 1546 01:32:20,160 --> 01:32:25,200 Speaker 1: problematic aspect is, uh, what they've got are some fragmentary 1547 01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:30,040 Speaker 1: points there in Idaho, which they say, oh, well, these 1548 01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:33,120 Speaker 1: look like, you know, these full blown points, uh, these 1549 01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:35,760 Speaker 1: complete points over here in Japan, and they sort of 1550 01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:38,479 Speaker 1: make the match by just taking a little tiny fragment 1551 01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:40,120 Speaker 1: and kind of putting it on top of one of 1552 01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:43,519 Speaker 1: these Japanese points and saying, look, it's the same form. Well, 1553 01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:47,479 Speaker 1: you can't do that, right, because that's also the same 1554 01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:49,960 Speaker 1: form as a bunch of projectile points in other parts 1555 01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:52,800 Speaker 1: of the world at other times as well. If you're 1556 01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:55,559 Speaker 1: going to draw a direct link, it's going to be 1557 01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:57,320 Speaker 1: And this gets back to what I was saying earlier. 1558 01:32:57,520 --> 01:33:00,800 Speaker 1: Population history and identifying whose related to who is not 1559 01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:03,640 Speaker 1: something we can do readily with the archaeological record, and 1560 01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:06,519 Speaker 1: especially with little fragments of points that you say, Okay, 1561 01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:09,240 Speaker 1: well this one matches that. No, it's just a little 1562 01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:12,000 Speaker 1: tiny fragment. You know, you can't say that if this 1563 01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:15,120 Speaker 1: thing was full blown and complete that it would in 1564 01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:18,080 Speaker 1: fact resemble this one over here in Japan thousands of 1565 01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:21,760 Speaker 1: miles away, right, And how would you? Maybe it's the 1566 01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:24,840 Speaker 1: base of a little doll. Well, that's it, right, I mean, 1567 01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:26,920 Speaker 1: it's just a point base or a point tip, and 1568 01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:29,639 Speaker 1: point bases and point tips can be pretty damn generic. 1569 01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:34,280 Speaker 1: That that being said, do you what do you think about? 1570 01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:40,200 Speaker 1: Because also this because of the water access, right, there 1571 01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:43,400 Speaker 1: are some conclusions that were kind of drawn as far 1572 01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:49,680 Speaker 1: as like people could have gotten here through a coastal migration, right, right, 1573 01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:54,120 Speaker 1: and so like early boat use and and in traveling 1574 01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:59,600 Speaker 1: some open water in early early boats, like do you 1575 01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:03,240 Speaker 1: do hold with any of that? Okay? Okay? Which is 1576 01:34:03,280 --> 01:34:05,640 Speaker 1: why I like it? Okay, Well, I'm gonna make you 1577 01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:10,559 Speaker 1: a happy guy that it's fun to think about, Okay, 1578 01:34:10,560 --> 01:34:13,960 Speaker 1: why I like it? So another another thing that's come 1579 01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:16,719 Speaker 1: out of ancient DNA, it's the gift that keeps on giving, 1580 01:34:17,960 --> 01:34:21,720 Speaker 1: is that you can extract DNA at a sediment. And 1581 01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:25,639 Speaker 1: one of the projects really Steve is looking skeptical here. Well, no, 1582 01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:29,320 Speaker 1: I'm just not skeptical surprised. What's in there? Mark? Oh, 1583 01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:35,479 Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe a DNA type of term? Yeah, well 1584 01:34:35,479 --> 01:34:40,200 Speaker 1: that's that's the sort of accepted scientific term. Um. Sorry, yeah, okay, 1585 01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:43,040 Speaker 1: So what's hiding in there? It's basically anything that shed 1586 01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:47,880 Speaker 1: any DNA over that particular quadic vegetation. You name it, 1587 01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:56,720 Speaker 1: you name it vegetation. So. Another of the projects that 1588 01:34:56,800 --> 01:35:00,120 Speaker 1: I was involved with Eski's group was so the Ice 1589 01:35:00,160 --> 01:35:02,479 Speaker 1: Free Corridor. We must have talked about it the last 1590 01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:03,760 Speaker 1: time I was here. Oh yeah, I used to be 1591 01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:05,439 Speaker 1: a big fan of that thing. Yeah, well we're not 1592 01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:10,680 Speaker 1: anymore neither. You go, and well you can't. I like 1593 01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:13,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people like, you know, like Whens is 1594 01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:17,360 Speaker 1: part of the Red Yeah, that's exactly like this wall 1595 01:35:17,520 --> 01:35:21,320 Speaker 1: of ice, right, and he's like badass hunters. This little 1596 01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:24,680 Speaker 1: gap cracks through and it come out, and there's just 1597 01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:30,759 Speaker 1: the American Great Plains story. It's just it's just not true. Sad, 1598 01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:33,400 Speaker 1: isn't it. Um. So, one of the projects that we 1599 01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:37,760 Speaker 1: did was Michael Peterson, one of Eski's guys, cored a 1600 01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:41,040 Speaker 1: couple of lakes, right, in the dead center of that corridor, 1601 01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:45,040 Speaker 1: and the corridor opened like a zipper, a zipper jacket 1602 01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:47,559 Speaker 1: that opens from the top and the bottom, So the 1603 01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:50,040 Speaker 1: top and the bottom opened earliest, but the middle part 1604 01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:53,280 Speaker 1: of the zipper, you know, stay closed. So he got 1605 01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:57,120 Speaker 1: a couple of cores from lakes right in that sort 1606 01:35:57,120 --> 01:36:00,200 Speaker 1: of un zippered part, right right after it opened. And 1607 01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:04,519 Speaker 1: what we found was nothing was living there until around 1608 01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:07,639 Speaker 1: twelve thousand, six years ago. So even if you round 1609 01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:10,360 Speaker 1: up we were talking about rounding up earlier, right, even 1610 01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:12,800 Speaker 1: if you round up to thirteen thousand, that's still too 1611 01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:15,120 Speaker 1: late to get people south of the ice They were 1612 01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:17,439 Speaker 1: already down there. They were already down there fishing, fishing 1613 01:36:17,439 --> 01:36:25,320 Speaker 1: and cows little spot exactly, fishing, at least at least 1614 01:36:24,920 --> 01:36:29,120 Speaker 1: they well. In fact, one of the arguments that's been 1615 01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:31,720 Speaker 1: made is that people were sort of coming down the 1616 01:36:31,760 --> 01:36:34,479 Speaker 1: coast following these salmon runs, and then when they got 1617 01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:36,840 Speaker 1: south of the ice sheet, they headed up the major 1618 01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:39,880 Speaker 1: river systems, head up to Columbia, get onto the snake, 1619 01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:43,519 Speaker 1: move yourself interior. Doesn't that change because it was supposed 1620 01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:47,680 Speaker 1: to be mammoth hunters, not salmon fisherman. Yeah, does that 1621 01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:51,720 Speaker 1: offend you as an old river at myself. I have 1622 01:36:51,760 --> 01:36:53,960 Speaker 1: no problem with it. I have no problem with it. 1623 01:36:54,080 --> 01:36:57,799 Speaker 1: I just it's not the romantic vision that we always 1624 01:36:57,840 --> 01:37:00,880 Speaker 1: had held to. Yeah, but then it never made much sense. 1625 01:37:01,200 --> 01:37:03,719 Speaker 1: Are you going to go after three and a half 1626 01:37:03,720 --> 01:37:07,479 Speaker 1: four ton animal that doesn't like you with a stick 1627 01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:09,960 Speaker 1: with a sharp rock at the end of it when 1628 01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:13,720 Speaker 1: you're just tripping over seafood or whatever? Right? Or turtles 1629 01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:18,519 Speaker 1: turtles Kelp for us Kelp Forest. I'm not sure I'm 1630 01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:20,759 Speaker 1: gonna go with Kelp Forest with the Kelp just because 1631 01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:23,519 Speaker 1: we we don't really know what the place to see 1632 01:37:24,280 --> 01:37:27,559 Speaker 1: sort of seascape. But that's another theory, right, it's like 1633 01:37:27,600 --> 01:37:33,280 Speaker 1: the Kelp Forest Kelp Highway. That's right, cruising down the 1634 01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:37,040 Speaker 1: Kelp Highway. Yeah, it just breaks the seeds magically, and 1635 01:37:37,080 --> 01:37:40,760 Speaker 1: you can travel from Japan, yeah, big Stone Point and 1636 01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:42,679 Speaker 1: get it all the way to Cooper's and then break 1637 01:37:42,720 --> 01:37:46,200 Speaker 1: it into pieces. Yeah eventually. Like man, I've been carrying 1638 01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:49,519 Speaker 1: around this Big Stone Point for yeah, generations and no 1639 01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:51,640 Speaker 1: one's used it yet. My daddy hand down to me. 1640 01:37:51,920 --> 01:37:54,559 Speaker 1: But we don't necessarily think they had boats either, because 1641 01:37:54,600 --> 01:37:56,840 Speaker 1: we now and this is again you know, it's in 1642 01:37:56,880 --> 01:38:00,599 Speaker 1: the new book. Any kind of water craft. They didn't 1643 01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:03,400 Speaker 1: have to have it because by the time we think 1644 01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:05,679 Speaker 1: people were moving down the coast, the coast was clear 1645 01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:07,640 Speaker 1: by around sixteen and a half to seven. How they 1646 01:38:07,680 --> 01:38:10,720 Speaker 1: going to cross like the Stikeen? And well, now that 1647 01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:13,519 Speaker 1: is you know, that's a question, right, So if you're 1648 01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:16,519 Speaker 1: coming down in winter, are these things going to be frozen? Oh? 1649 01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:22,920 Speaker 1: I don't know how hard would it have been to make? Uh? 1650 01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:27,040 Speaker 1: I am getting into the game. I was not going 1651 01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:29,640 Speaker 1: to becoming an anthropologist, but I am. Now are you 1652 01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:33,080 Speaker 1: gonna approach it from? I've drawn some conclusions. How I 1653 01:38:33,120 --> 01:38:35,839 Speaker 1: need to go out and in your in your bizs 1654 01:38:36,240 --> 01:38:37,719 Speaker 1: Dr Melic, what do you call the kind of paper 1655 01:38:37,720 --> 01:38:44,200 Speaker 1: where you just throw out an idea? Oh, a speculative paper, okay, 1656 01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:47,960 Speaker 1: a doctor, But you play one on the radio saying 1657 01:38:48,000 --> 01:38:50,880 Speaker 1: that they had to have had some type of small 1658 01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:54,240 Speaker 1: skin craft that they could use a scoot across the river. 1659 01:38:54,479 --> 01:38:56,360 Speaker 1: I think that's about the extent of my paper, okay, 1660 01:38:56,400 --> 01:38:58,760 Speaker 1: And that's actually a fine paper. The problem is that 1661 01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:01,120 Speaker 1: you're going to get in that skin craft and you know, 1662 01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:03,360 Speaker 1: somewhere on the Aleutian Islands and paddle all the way down. No, 1663 01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,479 Speaker 1: because you're gonna have to constantly haul it out now 1664 01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:08,639 Speaker 1: and then you're like, we gotta make another boat. Oh absolutely, Well, 1665 01:39:08,680 --> 01:39:12,040 Speaker 1: look people cross the Mississippi. They had to have something 1666 01:39:12,400 --> 01:39:14,720 Speaker 1: to get across these kind of making your children and 1667 01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:17,440 Speaker 1: your gear craft. Yeah, yeah, no, so they had watercraft. 1668 01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:20,240 Speaker 1: What I was you mean like watercraft water? Well, yeah, 1669 01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:22,240 Speaker 1: I'm I mean I'm talking about the idea that they 1670 01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:24,679 Speaker 1: actually made boats and sort of traveled down the coast 1671 01:39:24,680 --> 01:39:26,720 Speaker 1: without one setting foot on land, which is one of 1672 01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:29,200 Speaker 1: the theories that's that's been out already paper about that. 1673 01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:36,639 Speaker 1: I'll let you I'm already got I've already got a PhD. 1674 01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:40,439 Speaker 1: You can you can be senior author. Want Oh sorry, Spencer, 1675 01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:42,240 Speaker 1: go ahead. Last month, my wife and I went to 1676 01:39:42,320 --> 01:39:44,320 Speaker 1: Utah and we were camping. We spent a whole day 1677 01:39:44,400 --> 01:39:47,639 Speaker 1: hiking two different petrol glyphs in the area. And there 1678 01:39:47,720 --> 01:39:49,719 Speaker 1: was this one site that you hiked, you and there's 1679 01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:52,639 Speaker 1: these petrol glyphs amazing, and then a hundred feet further 1680 01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:56,360 Speaker 1: there's these dinosaur tracks that are fossil lives petrol glyphs 1681 01:39:56,600 --> 01:39:59,600 Speaker 1: five thousand years old. Dinosaur tracks were like hundred and 1682 01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:01,920 Speaker 1: fifty million years old at least, and it like put 1683 01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:03,920 Speaker 1: me in a real brain pretzel and it was like 1684 01:40:04,080 --> 01:40:07,160 Speaker 1: real hard to calibrate. Does that ever happen where you're 1685 01:40:07,200 --> 01:40:10,760 Speaker 1: like excavating some site that's like three thousand and you'd 1686 01:40:10,840 --> 01:40:14,200 Speaker 1: like collide with something that's a hundred million years old? 1687 01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:18,080 Speaker 1: That's significant? Well, sure, because people are people and people 1688 01:40:18,080 --> 01:40:21,639 Speaker 1: pick up things. So um, I don't know if this 1689 01:40:21,760 --> 01:40:24,000 Speaker 1: story is true or not, but I've heard it that 1690 01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:29,200 Speaker 1: in some of the excavations at one of the pueblos 1691 01:40:29,320 --> 01:40:33,559 Speaker 1: um ancient pueblos and maybe Choco Canyon, they found a 1692 01:40:33,560 --> 01:40:37,799 Speaker 1: falsome point. Now, obviously falsome people weren't living in Chaco 1693 01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:42,400 Speaker 1: Canyon a thousand years ago, but somebody there saw a 1694 01:40:42,439 --> 01:40:44,240 Speaker 1: falsome point on the ground and thought, oh wow, that's 1695 01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:47,920 Speaker 1: pretty cool, brought it home. Right, So collectors, right, we 1696 01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:49,439 Speaker 1: were talking about people that like to go out and 1697 01:40:49,439 --> 01:40:53,280 Speaker 1: collect stuff. They collect crnoids, they collect fossils. So yeah, 1698 01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:57,360 Speaker 1: it's actually not uncommon uh too. I mean it's not 1699 01:40:57,439 --> 01:40:59,920 Speaker 1: common necessarily, but it's not uncommon to have that sort 1700 01:40:59,920 --> 01:41:04,439 Speaker 1: of asynchronous uh set of materials actually out on a 1701 01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:07,639 Speaker 1: site where you've got something that's millions or many many 1702 01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:10,760 Speaker 1: millions of years old next to something that's fairly recent. 1703 01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:12,760 Speaker 1: Have you been following We're gonna we're trying to get 1704 01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:14,920 Speaker 1: him on the show once he gets vaccinated. But we're 1705 01:41:15,400 --> 01:41:19,320 Speaker 1: Mike kuns is crazy glass beads out of Genera, Italy 1706 01:41:20,120 --> 01:41:22,519 Speaker 1: in Alaska. He sent me that paper he was talking 1707 01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:24,880 Speaker 1: about that in two thousand eight. Yeah, well it took 1708 01:41:24,920 --> 01:41:26,640 Speaker 1: a while to get that paper published. In fact, it 1709 01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:28,640 Speaker 1: may not even have appeared yet. Are you buying it? 1710 01:41:29,080 --> 01:41:32,320 Speaker 1: Am I by doing something bad by talking about it? No? No, no, no, 1711 01:41:32,360 --> 01:41:35,000 Speaker 1: it's impressed. It's impressed. It's just I don't think the 1712 01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:38,800 Speaker 1: issue is shown up in my anyways. Glass beads, well, 1713 01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:43,599 Speaker 1: I'm not made in Italy. That that would have had 1714 01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:47,760 Speaker 1: to have come the hard way, the hard way out 1715 01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:55,519 Speaker 1: of like through Europe, cross headed east, then crossed the 1716 01:41:55,600 --> 01:42:00,040 Speaker 1: Bearing straight and landed in Alaska, way before anybody you 1717 01:42:00,040 --> 01:42:02,000 Speaker 1: would have ever thought about bringing them from the other 1718 01:42:02,040 --> 01:42:05,760 Speaker 1: through the America's those some crazy ass beads. Well, but 1719 01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:08,519 Speaker 1: think about the Silk road. I think how easy they 1720 01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:13,719 Speaker 1: are to transport. Well, and you forget about in your pocket? Boy, Well, 1721 01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:18,080 Speaker 1: we need to move on to dogs. Go ahead. You 1722 01:42:18,479 --> 01:42:22,320 Speaker 1: think that the beads were carried by dogs. That's very plausible. 1723 01:42:22,560 --> 01:42:25,479 Speaker 1: There's some fancy leashes and stuff in Mexico. I've seen 1724 01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:31,920 Speaker 1: turquoise Yeah, alright, dogs. Yeah, what do you do you? 1725 01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:37,080 Speaker 1: I feel that because Americans have I shouldn't just say 1726 01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:39,880 Speaker 1: it's probably's probably some global aspect to this, just an 1727 01:42:39,880 --> 01:42:43,680 Speaker 1: insatiable appetite for dog information. Dogs are cool. I mean, 1728 01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:46,760 Speaker 1: people eat it up, man um. And I feel that 1729 01:42:46,880 --> 01:42:49,040 Speaker 1: in the last I don't know how long it's been 1730 01:42:49,040 --> 01:42:52,559 Speaker 1: going on decades whatever, years, you see a hell of 1731 01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:59,200 Speaker 1: a lot of news speculation, publications about hey, where do 1732 01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:02,080 Speaker 1: these things come from? Anyway, it's like a hot question 1733 01:43:02,200 --> 01:43:05,200 Speaker 1: right now. It's it's genetics again, Steve, because is that 1734 01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:08,160 Speaker 1: what's just opening up new just opening up new windows 1735 01:43:08,160 --> 01:43:15,320 Speaker 1: of opportunity? Absolutely? Absolutely, and and it's now becoming clear that, um, 1736 01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:19,160 Speaker 1: the dog history is incredibly complicated. It's incredibly interesting too, 1737 01:43:19,160 --> 01:43:22,040 Speaker 1: in the sense that that's the first species humans domesticated. 1738 01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:26,400 Speaker 1: We've been around like that. That feels ironclad. Oh yeah, 1739 01:43:26,439 --> 01:43:29,080 Speaker 1: oh yeah, because it's by like a huge amount of time, right, 1740 01:43:29,640 --> 01:43:33,559 Speaker 1: ten thousand plus years, ten thousand plus so uh yeah, 1741 01:43:33,640 --> 01:43:35,639 Speaker 1: I mean dogs have been our pals for a long time. 1742 01:43:35,880 --> 01:43:38,439 Speaker 1: And they've been not just our pals, but they've been 1743 01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:42,640 Speaker 1: our sort of workhorses, work dogs. They've been part of 1744 01:43:42,640 --> 01:43:45,720 Speaker 1: our cultural repertoire as it were. Uh, you know, for 1745 01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:48,960 Speaker 1: many groups, dogs were a tool. They were used for hunting, 1746 01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:53,280 Speaker 1: they were used for defense, guarding, warning systems. I mean, 1747 01:43:53,400 --> 01:43:56,280 Speaker 1: dogs are great. In fact, when I got together with 1748 01:43:56,320 --> 01:43:59,559 Speaker 1: these folks too, uh produce this dog paper that we 1749 01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:02,639 Speaker 1: had just just published this past well just a couple 1750 01:44:02,640 --> 01:44:05,880 Speaker 1: of months ago actually, Um, I was really excited about it, 1751 01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:07,240 Speaker 1: but I told him that, you know, if this was 1752 01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:09,200 Speaker 1: a story about cats, they'd have to find somebody else 1753 01:44:09,240 --> 01:44:14,200 Speaker 1: to work with them. I don't do cats, big cat down, 1754 01:44:14,200 --> 01:44:19,080 Speaker 1: the big time cat guy right there. Sorry, Spencer, you 1755 01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:20,880 Speaker 1: can write the paper the next time, you know, cats 1756 01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:25,320 Speaker 1: come along. Yeah, yeah, all right, So you want to 1757 01:44:25,360 --> 01:44:28,120 Speaker 1: talk about the paper. I want to talk about the paper. 1758 01:44:28,479 --> 01:44:31,760 Speaker 1: Um Can I tell you my thing first or later? 1759 01:44:32,920 --> 01:44:34,880 Speaker 1: Like I think I might have uncovered some good source 1760 01:44:34,920 --> 01:44:37,439 Speaker 1: material for you. You're the host, you go, I'm reading 1761 01:44:37,479 --> 01:44:39,519 Speaker 1: a book and I'm gonna do a big, big, huge 1762 01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:41,880 Speaker 1: book report on this show coming soon. I'm reading a 1763 01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:45,000 Speaker 1: book with don't judge my brother said to me. Listen. 1764 01:44:45,280 --> 01:44:48,360 Speaker 1: My brother said to me, said, don't look at the title. 1765 01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:53,320 Speaker 1: Just read the book. Okay, the title is Alaska's Wolf Man. No, 1766 01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:55,439 Speaker 1: but it's in red. What it's about the guy that 1767 01:44:55,479 --> 01:45:00,560 Speaker 1: goes up to Alaska. He's a market hunter, so he 1768 01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:04,879 Speaker 1: for road building crews and mining camps. He hunts dollsheep 1769 01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:08,840 Speaker 1: and caribou. But in the early days, like leading up 1770 01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:14,479 Speaker 1: to statehood, he becomes a government wolfer and he winds 1771 01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:16,639 Speaker 1: up doing a bunch of like at the same time, 1772 01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:22,000 Speaker 1: out in western Alaska, Askimo groups are trying to they're 1773 01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:27,120 Speaker 1: trying to help Askimo groups diversify their economy by reindeer 1774 01:45:27,160 --> 01:45:30,120 Speaker 1: with bringing in reindeer herds. But wolf predation on these 1775 01:45:30,160 --> 01:45:32,559 Speaker 1: reindeer heers is horrible because reindeer just don't get it right. 1776 01:45:33,240 --> 01:45:35,240 Speaker 1: They just you know, they're coming in from somewhere else, 1777 01:45:35,400 --> 01:45:38,559 Speaker 1: term loose, and they're just picking sitting targets. He winds 1778 01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:40,920 Speaker 1: up doing a bunch of He winds up doing a 1779 01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:44,679 Speaker 1: bunch of wolf work all around the state, usually where 1780 01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:49,080 Speaker 1: there's like a faltering caribou herd. Dollsheet numbers get really depressed, 1781 01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:51,480 Speaker 1: and he would go in and do this heavy duty wolfwork. 1782 01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:57,120 Speaker 1: But in the book he's got some fascinating observations about um, 1783 01:45:57,200 --> 01:46:01,240 Speaker 1: he's doing much of his work but dog teams, so 1784 01:46:01,400 --> 01:46:06,639 Speaker 1: he catches wolves now then, and his findings about how, like, 1785 01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:10,760 Speaker 1: what you can actually get done with a wolf, what 1786 01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:13,599 Speaker 1: happens when he breeds a wolf with whatever he breeds 1787 01:46:13,640 --> 01:46:17,000 Speaker 1: a wolf of the Mala mute, what the attributes of 1788 01:46:17,040 --> 01:46:20,439 Speaker 1: that generation is, what the attributes of the next generation is. 1789 01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:25,560 Speaker 1: The difficulty that he encountered. He basically got you cannot 1790 01:46:27,080 --> 01:46:30,240 Speaker 1: take a wolf, like, in his view, you cannot take 1791 01:46:30,280 --> 01:46:32,920 Speaker 1: a pure wolf. There's nothing you will do that will 1792 01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:35,479 Speaker 1: ever make that a predictable pet. A wolf is a 1793 01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,080 Speaker 1: wild animal. He's like, you can't do it. No, A 1794 01:46:38,120 --> 01:46:41,040 Speaker 1: dog has been a domesticated animal for over twenty years, 1795 01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:44,439 Speaker 1: and it's just a it's night and day. The interesting 1796 01:46:44,439 --> 01:46:47,200 Speaker 1: thing about wolves and dogs in terms of gene flow 1797 01:46:48,360 --> 01:46:51,519 Speaker 1: is that there's there's dog danna and wolves, but not 1798 01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:54,880 Speaker 1: the reverse in modern days. I gotta say that, I 1799 01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:57,160 Speaker 1: gotta do that real slow in my head say it again. 1800 01:46:57,800 --> 01:47:03,640 Speaker 1: So when dog in dog populations today, there's no wolf DNA, 1801 01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:07,840 Speaker 1: but in wolf populations there is dog DNA. So the introgression. 1802 01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:10,559 Speaker 1: Understand what it's a one way it's a one way 1803 01:47:10,600 --> 01:47:15,920 Speaker 1: gene transfer. It's not it's not going both ways. So well, 1804 01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:19,639 Speaker 1: I don't understand why it happened that way. But my 1805 01:47:19,840 --> 01:47:22,320 Speaker 1: colleague Gregor Larson, who was one of the principles on 1806 01:47:22,360 --> 01:47:25,960 Speaker 1: this dog paper part again, I'm sorry, I'm struggling. Okay, 1807 01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:30,679 Speaker 1: So you've got you've got dogs and wolves mating, but 1808 01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:35,519 Speaker 1: they're not producing. The wolves are not producing. Um, they're 1809 01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:39,719 Speaker 1: producing mates or descendants that have dog DNA in them, 1810 01:47:39,960 --> 01:47:42,479 Speaker 1: but the dogs are not producing viable offspring from the 1811 01:47:42,520 --> 01:47:49,640 Speaker 1: wolf mating kind of more. Yeah, yeah, um, well, I 1812 01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:53,000 Speaker 1: mean it's not entirely clear why that is, because oftentimes, 1813 01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:55,080 Speaker 1: when you've got two species that are kind of on 1814 01:47:55,160 --> 01:47:59,200 Speaker 1: the edge of biological compatibility, they can produce viable offspring. 1815 01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:05,360 Speaker 1: So humans and neandertal has produced viable offspring. But we 1816 01:48:05,439 --> 01:48:07,559 Speaker 1: know that today only because we all have some amount 1817 01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:15,800 Speaker 1: I have less than normal. Okay, about that we think 1818 01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:25,479 Speaker 1: about this genetically your behaviorally, I think Joe Rogan's is 1819 01:48:25,520 --> 01:48:30,599 Speaker 1: extraordinarily So I was thinking about the whole twenty three 1820 01:48:30,600 --> 01:48:34,640 Speaker 1: and me during our earlier conversation because it's like I 1821 01:48:34,680 --> 01:48:39,840 Speaker 1: want like the oral history versus what you draw the 1822 01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:42,599 Speaker 1: conclusions you come to from looking at like a twenty 1823 01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,800 Speaker 1: three and me report versus the oral history that you've 1824 01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:48,640 Speaker 1: been subject to your entire life. I think it is 1825 01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:51,120 Speaker 1: like an interesting headspace to be in and listen to 1826 01:48:51,120 --> 01:48:54,760 Speaker 1: this podcast. Right, it's like, well, I my family has 1827 01:48:54,800 --> 01:48:57,800 Speaker 1: done this. And then it's like, oh, but we know 1828 01:48:57,840 --> 01:49:04,160 Speaker 1: what happened. One YI took it no very lavian they were. 1829 01:49:04,760 --> 01:49:10,200 Speaker 1: They were lying. Yeah, but I mean genetics is genetics 1830 01:49:10,200 --> 01:49:14,320 Speaker 1: and identity is not right. Uh, and so whatever they 1831 01:49:14,400 --> 01:49:17,439 Speaker 1: told you about your your people, it was probably the 1832 01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:20,160 Speaker 1: true story in a cultural sense. Right, this is who 1833 01:49:20,200 --> 01:49:22,160 Speaker 1: we are, this is who we become, this is who 1834 01:49:22,160 --> 01:49:25,280 Speaker 1: we were. Uh, these are your ancestors. Um, what the 1835 01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:29,599 Speaker 1: genetics is telling you about is sort of the deeper past. Uh, 1836 01:49:29,600 --> 01:49:33,920 Speaker 1: and the other populations that your relatives and ancestors have 1837 01:49:34,000 --> 01:49:37,000 Speaker 1: sort of interacted with. The stories didn't get woven into 1838 01:49:37,000 --> 01:49:39,400 Speaker 1: the narrative. Yeah, yeah, because you know, the narrative is 1839 01:49:39,400 --> 01:49:42,720 Speaker 1: a cultural narrative. The narratives not a genetic area. I mean, 1840 01:49:42,720 --> 01:49:45,439 Speaker 1: if you're picture this is way off dogs. But if 1841 01:49:45,439 --> 01:49:48,720 Speaker 1: you're adopted into say, I'll say this let's say you're 1842 01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:52,080 Speaker 1: adopted into an Italian family, you know, and that's you identify, 1843 01:49:52,200 --> 01:49:54,040 Speaker 1: and of course, and what one day you'd be like 1844 01:49:54,680 --> 01:50:02,200 Speaker 1: becausel was all wasted time. Yeah, um, all right, so 1845 01:50:02,200 --> 01:50:03,800 Speaker 1: you want to go back to the dogs. Yeah, I 1846 01:50:03,840 --> 01:50:06,519 Speaker 1: think we should get back. And dogs and wolves became 1847 01:50:06,560 --> 01:50:12,720 Speaker 1: two very different things ten thousand years ago. Yeah, and 1848 01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:15,160 Speaker 1: I suspect. Okay, So let's think about the context in 1849 01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:18,320 Speaker 1: which this is happening. This is the glacial period. It's 1850 01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:22,320 Speaker 1: probably happening during what's known as the Last Glacial Maximum. 1851 01:50:22,360 --> 01:50:26,200 Speaker 1: That's about a three four thousand year window during this 1852 01:50:26,280 --> 01:50:29,320 Speaker 1: last glacial period when times were really tough. It was 1853 01:50:29,360 --> 01:50:33,200 Speaker 1: really cold, it was really harsh, very severe conditions. And 1854 01:50:33,280 --> 01:50:37,000 Speaker 1: you've got isolated human populations living somewhere in northeast Asia. 1855 01:50:37,800 --> 01:50:39,559 Speaker 1: We know they're isolated because we can see it in 1856 01:50:39,560 --> 01:50:42,080 Speaker 1: the ancient DNA. We know we have new lineages that 1857 01:50:42,080 --> 01:50:46,160 Speaker 1: are emerging. Wolves are living in that same part of 1858 01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:50,360 Speaker 1: the world, and they're just as um, they weren't just 1859 01:50:50,400 --> 01:50:53,679 Speaker 1: as much trouble. Right, it's cold, it's harsh, there's probably 1860 01:50:53,720 --> 01:50:56,639 Speaker 1: not a lot of game running around, right, and so 1861 01:50:56,760 --> 01:50:58,599 Speaker 1: they're you know, sticking their noses up in the air 1862 01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:02,800 Speaker 1: and they're smelling stuff, right, they're smelling food, and they're 1863 01:51:02,840 --> 01:51:07,120 Speaker 1: kind of creeping around these, um, these camps, and at 1864 01:51:07,160 --> 01:51:10,840 Speaker 1: some point, you know, somebody's throwing them meat or maybe 1865 01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:12,960 Speaker 1: they're just kind of moving in after the humans leave 1866 01:51:13,080 --> 01:51:14,960 Speaker 1: and kind of knowing on the bones that are left 1867 01:51:14,960 --> 01:51:18,800 Speaker 1: behind on the camp. And over time they start to 1868 01:51:18,840 --> 01:51:22,880 Speaker 1: become commence als. Basically they're hanging around with one another, um. 1869 01:51:23,080 --> 01:51:25,720 Speaker 1: And and it is a process. It's not an event, right, 1870 01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:27,479 Speaker 1: you don't just sort of turn a wolf into a 1871 01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:32,400 Speaker 1: dog in a day. Um. It's a long drawn out process. 1872 01:51:32,479 --> 01:51:34,920 Speaker 1: And these you know, and they're sort of they're finding 1873 01:51:34,920 --> 01:51:38,720 Speaker 1: themselves together kind of isolated on this landscape, and in 1874 01:51:38,760 --> 01:51:44,280 Speaker 1: that long term process, they're understanding that they're not necessarily 1875 01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:48,520 Speaker 1: i mean, in principle their predator, their competitors as predators, 1876 01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:51,800 Speaker 1: right because in principle people are hunting meat. They're hunting 1877 01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:55,160 Speaker 1: meat too. But they found a way to get along, uh, 1878 01:51:55,320 --> 01:51:57,559 Speaker 1: and they found a way to sort of help one another. 1879 01:51:58,160 --> 01:52:00,400 Speaker 1: And so the dogs, you know, start to aid in 1880 01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:03,280 Speaker 1: the hunting as they become dogs, right, as they're kept 1881 01:52:03,360 --> 01:52:05,880 Speaker 1: by the people, they're fed by the people, they're raised 1882 01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:08,519 Speaker 1: by the people. They get a they get habituated to 1883 01:52:08,720 --> 01:52:12,680 Speaker 1: the people. There's a it might maybe you think it's fanciful, 1884 01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:16,000 Speaker 1: but I've even read I don't know. It's like it's 1885 01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:21,720 Speaker 1: someone postulating what might have been the reciprocity that like 1886 01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:25,920 Speaker 1: a early warning system. Oh absolutely, absolutely, like how they 1887 01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:29,439 Speaker 1: just go ballistic when something strange is happening, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No. 1888 01:52:29,640 --> 01:52:31,360 Speaker 1: That's why I say they're part of the cultural repertoire. 1889 01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:33,320 Speaker 1: They were a tool. They were a tool for people, 1890 01:52:34,040 --> 01:52:37,679 Speaker 1: especially if you're on a vast unknown landscape, like say 1891 01:52:37,720 --> 01:52:40,920 Speaker 1: the America's right, you're making that left turn, you've gotten 1892 01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:44,080 Speaker 1: around the continental ice sheets, you're spreading out into the 1893 01:52:44,160 --> 01:52:47,040 Speaker 1: northern hemisphere. You have no idea what's around the corner, 1894 01:52:47,040 --> 01:52:50,360 Speaker 1: and you have no idea what's going to feed you, 1895 01:52:51,400 --> 01:52:54,320 Speaker 1: hurt you, try and kill you. Right, if you've got 1896 01:52:54,320 --> 01:52:56,320 Speaker 1: a dog with you, that's a pretty good thing. And 1897 01:52:56,360 --> 01:52:58,760 Speaker 1: that's that's what came out of this this work that 1898 01:52:58,800 --> 01:53:03,200 Speaker 1: we just published. Was I was in Oxford a year 1899 01:53:03,280 --> 01:53:06,679 Speaker 1: or two ago, and I was talking to Gregor Larson, 1900 01:53:06,760 --> 01:53:09,560 Speaker 1: my colleague who works on ancient dogs doing the genetics, 1901 01:53:10,160 --> 01:53:14,360 Speaker 1: and I said to him, you know, you're beers over beers, right, No, No, 1902 01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:16,639 Speaker 1: that made a good story. But the beers actually came 1903 01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:21,280 Speaker 1: after we figured all this out. This was not some 1904 01:53:21,360 --> 01:53:32,479 Speaker 1: sort of drunken old whol over just beer, grainbelt beer. Yeah, 1905 01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:34,640 Speaker 1: this is not an ad for it. We didn't. We 1906 01:53:34,680 --> 01:53:40,880 Speaker 1: start out this conversation about boy hit me. I was, 1907 01:53:42,400 --> 01:53:44,680 Speaker 1: you guys were real casual in this person's office, and 1908 01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:48,240 Speaker 1: we were. We were casually in the office. I was 1909 01:53:48,280 --> 01:53:50,559 Speaker 1: there talking shop. I was talking shop. I had gone 1910 01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:52,840 Speaker 1: there to give a series of lectures to Oxford, and 1911 01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:56,439 Speaker 1: I said, you know, Gregor, your dog dates look a 1912 01:53:56,439 --> 01:54:02,200 Speaker 1: lot like our people dates, and explain that. Okay, so 1913 01:54:02,240 --> 01:54:05,920 Speaker 1: we know from the age. Okay, do you want to 1914 01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:08,600 Speaker 1: because other people might be listening, Steve, I think it 1915 01:54:11,840 --> 01:54:18,320 Speaker 1: cal al right. Here here's how it works, bense Um. 1916 01:54:18,360 --> 01:54:22,040 Speaker 1: So human lineages, Um, we were just talking about this. 1917 01:54:22,080 --> 01:54:25,120 Speaker 1: They split over time, so groups become isolated. They you know, 1918 01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:27,639 Speaker 1: one group goes and stays in the northeast Siberia, another 1919 01:54:27,680 --> 01:54:30,360 Speaker 1: group goes into the America's and then in the Americas, 1920 01:54:30,439 --> 01:54:32,920 Speaker 1: some of them stay north, others go south. And so 1921 01:54:32,960 --> 01:54:35,080 Speaker 1: we see this in the genetic record. We see different 1922 01:54:35,720 --> 01:54:39,920 Speaker 1: um lineages happle groups. You can call them different names, 1923 01:54:39,960 --> 01:54:43,920 Speaker 1: but lineages works. And these are groups that are historically 1924 01:54:43,920 --> 01:54:48,960 Speaker 1: related to one another, but over time they've become separated. Okay, 1925 01:54:49,000 --> 01:54:52,200 Speaker 1: So we have a record of when those sort of 1926 01:54:52,240 --> 01:54:57,640 Speaker 1: lineages emerge. So we know that ancestral Native Americans split 1927 01:54:57,680 --> 01:55:00,680 Speaker 1: off from groups that would stay in Asia sometime around 1928 01:55:00,720 --> 01:55:04,200 Speaker 1: twenty three thousand years ago. We know that when they 1929 01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:08,040 Speaker 1: get into the America's sometime around sixteen thousand or so 1930 01:55:08,200 --> 01:55:11,320 Speaker 1: years ago, they split off again. Some of them stay north, 1931 01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:15,240 Speaker 1: others go south um and then later on we see 1932 01:55:15,280 --> 01:55:18,440 Speaker 1: more splits as they move further and further south into 1933 01:55:18,480 --> 01:55:21,000 Speaker 1: the hemisphere. So we've got a record of all these 1934 01:55:21,080 --> 01:55:24,360 Speaker 1: kind of turnpoints along the way as people are moving 1935 01:55:24,360 --> 01:55:28,839 Speaker 1: into this hemisphere. And when Gregor showed me the results 1936 01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:31,160 Speaker 1: with the dogs, he said, well, you know, we've got 1937 01:55:31,160 --> 01:55:34,240 Speaker 1: a split here. We've got two lineages developing at this time. 1938 01:55:34,560 --> 01:55:36,800 Speaker 1: We've got a bunch of lineages developing at this time. 1939 01:55:37,240 --> 01:55:39,080 Speaker 1: That's when I said to him, you know, you're split 1940 01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:42,600 Speaker 1: times kind of look like our split times. And then 1941 01:55:42,640 --> 01:55:45,160 Speaker 1: there was that sort of oh why didn't I think 1942 01:55:45,160 --> 01:55:48,680 Speaker 1: of this before? It's called eureka moment. It wouldn't even 1943 01:55:48,720 --> 01:55:50,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to call it a Eureka moment because 1944 01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:53,240 Speaker 1: that implies it was a really deep and profound insight. No, 1945 01:55:53,400 --> 01:55:56,280 Speaker 1: this was, well, of course people can come into the 1946 01:55:56,320 --> 01:55:59,440 Speaker 1: America's without dogs, but dogs are not going to come 1947 01:55:59,440 --> 01:56:03,440 Speaker 1: into the America because without people. So of course the dog, 1948 01:56:04,320 --> 01:56:08,080 Speaker 1: the dog history is gonna mimic and match and coincide 1949 01:56:08,120 --> 01:56:11,320 Speaker 1: with human history. Now, whether they came in with the 1950 01:56:11,400 --> 01:56:13,760 Speaker 1: very first people was, you know, kind of a different issue, 1951 01:56:14,040 --> 01:56:16,560 Speaker 1: but clearly they must have come with people, so at 1952 01:56:16,600 --> 01:56:21,880 Speaker 1: some point their histories aligned. And so when we so 1953 01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:24,040 Speaker 1: I then went to the white board, he said, okay, 1954 01:56:24,040 --> 01:56:25,640 Speaker 1: well let's kind of try and figure this out. So 1955 01:56:25,680 --> 01:56:29,880 Speaker 1: I drew Siberia, com Chaca Peninsula, I drew Alaska, and 1956 01:56:29,920 --> 01:56:32,560 Speaker 1: I said, okay, here's where we have groups splitting off 1957 01:56:32,600 --> 01:56:34,720 Speaker 1: at different times. Here's where they are at this point, 1958 01:56:34,760 --> 01:56:36,840 Speaker 1: here's where they are at that point. And then they 1959 01:56:36,840 --> 01:56:39,840 Speaker 1: put the dog story on, and you had a beer 1960 01:56:39,840 --> 01:56:44,400 Speaker 1: in your hand while you were well. Then we went 1961 01:56:44,440 --> 01:56:48,280 Speaker 1: to the bar afterwards and congratulated ourselves having figured this out. 1962 01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:51,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, that's uh. And it was just so 1963 01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:55,040 Speaker 1: obvious that well, of course it had to happen this. Okay, 1964 01:56:55,320 --> 01:57:01,560 Speaker 1: here's a couple of questions for did this happened again, 1965 01:57:02,440 --> 01:57:04,440 Speaker 1: Did the same thing that we're talking about happening in 1966 01:57:04,480 --> 01:57:12,480 Speaker 1: Siberia with dogs happened in other places completely unrelated? Or 1967 01:57:12,480 --> 01:57:15,480 Speaker 1: did that then? Like that, did the dog then sort 1968 01:57:15,480 --> 01:57:18,640 Speaker 1: of like backfill along the path that humans have been 1969 01:57:18,680 --> 01:57:22,440 Speaker 1: taken since the African diaspora? Right? So, um, dogs go 1970 01:57:22,520 --> 01:57:26,440 Speaker 1: both directions, right, So they're going to be domesticated, and 1971 01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:28,480 Speaker 1: some of them are heading east, some of them are 1972 01:57:28,480 --> 01:57:32,160 Speaker 1: heading into the America's others presumably went west with people. 1973 01:57:32,280 --> 01:57:34,680 Speaker 1: We know that populations that are in this part of 1974 01:57:34,720 --> 01:57:37,160 Speaker 1: northeast Asia at the end of the ice age, after 1975 01:57:37,160 --> 01:57:40,080 Speaker 1: the last glacial maximum, they're moving all over the Eurasian 1976 01:57:40,120 --> 01:57:43,000 Speaker 1: But that was it's possible that there was a singular 1977 01:57:43,040 --> 01:57:46,240 Speaker 1: domestication event. Well, now that's controversial, and you'll have to 1978 01:57:46,280 --> 01:57:49,200 Speaker 1: get a dog person on here to defend either the 1979 01:57:49,400 --> 01:57:53,040 Speaker 1: single origin point or the multiple origin point, because I 1980 01:57:53,080 --> 01:57:56,360 Speaker 1: don't do dogs. If it's multiple, how many how like 1981 01:57:56,480 --> 01:57:59,280 Speaker 1: what's like a fashionable multiple? Has that happened twice or 1982 01:57:59,400 --> 01:58:02,560 Speaker 1: ten times? Um? I think the argument is is that 1983 01:58:02,680 --> 01:58:05,080 Speaker 1: there might have been sort of three centers of domestication. 1984 01:58:05,120 --> 01:58:07,600 Speaker 1: But again, it's not my thing, and this dog group 1985 01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:12,160 Speaker 1: is my second question. Um, I know you're not a 1986 01:58:12,200 --> 01:58:16,680 Speaker 1: dog guy, but you probably know this. This These dogs 1987 01:58:16,680 --> 01:58:23,080 Speaker 1: are they need they're adding like they're adding as people 1988 01:58:23,120 --> 01:58:25,320 Speaker 1: moving to new areas. No doubt there has to be 1989 01:58:25,440 --> 01:58:29,400 Speaker 1: some crossbreeding occurring where they're they're bumping into like all 1990 01:58:29,400 --> 01:58:32,320 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you come here and the Mexican gray wolf. 1991 01:58:32,400 --> 01:58:34,280 Speaker 1: Let's say, let's say the Mexican gray wolf was a thing, 1992 01:58:34,320 --> 01:58:38,080 Speaker 1: then maybe it wasn't um at some point their dogs 1993 01:58:38,320 --> 01:58:41,320 Speaker 1: pick that up a little bit, right, pick it up 1994 01:58:41,360 --> 01:58:43,800 Speaker 1: to some degree. Maybe I don't. I don't know that 1995 01:58:43,840 --> 01:58:46,320 Speaker 1: we have enough resolution of the dog genetic record to 1996 01:58:46,440 --> 01:58:49,080 Speaker 1: say that. What I do know, and this is, you know, 1997 01:58:49,120 --> 01:58:51,160 Speaker 1: sort of an answer to a different part of the 1998 01:58:51,200 --> 01:58:53,480 Speaker 1: question that you were asking, is that this is not 1999 01:58:53,560 --> 01:58:55,760 Speaker 1: the first time it's happened. We know that when people 2000 01:58:55,800 --> 01:58:58,600 Speaker 1: move across the Far North around five thousand years ago, 2001 01:58:58,680 --> 01:59:00,840 Speaker 1: they're taking dogs with him as well. And that's a 2002 01:59:00,880 --> 01:59:05,240 Speaker 1: completely separate event where people are tracking across the landscape 2003 01:59:05,240 --> 01:59:11,200 Speaker 1: bringing their dogs with them, but but possibly dogs that 2004 01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:15,560 Speaker 1: had been in a sort of rolling lineage with these 2005 01:59:15,560 --> 01:59:18,080 Speaker 1: early dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and think about it, 2006 01:59:18,160 --> 01:59:19,640 Speaker 1: do you think of them as a technology? Was like 2007 01:59:19,640 --> 01:59:23,120 Speaker 1: a technology that's been transferred. Well, and and let's let's 2008 01:59:23,320 --> 01:59:25,800 Speaker 1: kind of riff on that transfer notion. You know, when 2009 01:59:25,800 --> 01:59:28,440 Speaker 1: you've got a dog and you see other people with 2010 01:59:28,480 --> 01:59:30,480 Speaker 1: their dogs, your dog is gonna go running over there, 2011 01:59:31,520 --> 01:59:34,440 Speaker 1: unless it's on a leash, and it's gonna go hanging 2012 01:59:34,480 --> 01:59:36,640 Speaker 1: out with them for a while and may or may 2013 01:59:36,640 --> 01:59:39,160 Speaker 1: not come back. So I suspect when you know, sort 2014 01:59:39,200 --> 01:59:42,360 Speaker 1: of groups were um, you know, encountering one another after 2015 01:59:42,400 --> 01:59:44,960 Speaker 1: sort of long separations, I suspect the dogs were probably 2016 01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:49,520 Speaker 1: moving back and forth between groups um as well. Um, 2017 01:59:49,560 --> 01:59:53,160 Speaker 1: but yeah, they were part of the They were part 2018 01:59:53,200 --> 01:59:55,760 Speaker 1: of the colonization process. They were part of the dispersal 2019 01:59:55,800 --> 01:59:59,520 Speaker 1: process into the Americas and probably served, you know, really 2020 01:59:59,520 --> 02:00:02,720 Speaker 1: important rolls because think about it, if you're coming into 2021 02:00:02,760 --> 02:00:06,240 Speaker 1: a completely unknown landscape, not a bad idea to have 2022 02:00:06,280 --> 02:00:09,960 Speaker 1: a dog with you. What's the oldest dog bone that's 2023 02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:13,560 Speaker 1: been found and what's now the lower forty eight it's 2024 02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:16,360 Speaker 1: around ten thousand years old from a couple of sites 2025 02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:18,640 Speaker 1: in Illinois. And what can they tell about those? What 2026 02:00:18,680 --> 02:00:21,360 Speaker 1: they look like? How big were they? Oh? Gosh, you'd 2027 02:00:21,360 --> 02:00:23,200 Speaker 1: have to ask a dog person. But I don't think 2028 02:00:23,200 --> 02:00:27,040 Speaker 1: they were terribly large. Don't think big wolves. Yeah, the 2029 02:00:27,160 --> 02:00:31,080 Speaker 1: sites are called Coster KOs t e R. And Still 2030 02:00:31,160 --> 02:00:33,280 Speaker 1: Well are the sites that have produced these sort of 2031 02:00:33,280 --> 02:00:35,640 Speaker 1: ten thousand year old dogs. Had the dogs been butchered 2032 02:00:35,800 --> 02:00:40,240 Speaker 1: or just dead again, you'd have to ask a person 2033 02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:42,400 Speaker 1: who's a dog. You gotta tell us a good dog person. 2034 02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:46,360 Speaker 1: I gave you a name, Gregor Larson and Angela Perry. 2035 02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:51,520 Speaker 1: Have you spoken this person? No, not yet, but they 2036 02:00:51,520 --> 02:00:54,680 Speaker 1: were on my list. They're on your list? Yeah? No, Um, 2037 02:00:54,760 --> 02:00:58,560 Speaker 1: dogs were food too. Look, times get tough, you know, Sorry, 2038 02:00:58,600 --> 02:01:02,360 Speaker 1: you've been a really good dog. But you know it's 2039 02:01:02,360 --> 02:01:04,840 Speaker 1: either you or me. Oh it's the Swiss Army knife 2040 02:01:04,920 --> 02:01:11,920 Speaker 1: of companions, you know. I mean there's a lot exactly 2041 02:01:12,640 --> 02:01:16,960 Speaker 1: what criticisms their objections have there been to your conclusion 2042 02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:21,440 Speaker 1: about this? Well, the um the argument. So there were 2043 02:01:21,440 --> 02:01:24,280 Speaker 1: two pieces to that that piece we just published. One 2044 02:01:24,320 --> 02:01:29,240 Speaker 1: was the sort of um kind of coinciding histories, uh, 2045 02:01:29,240 --> 02:01:32,040 Speaker 1: and that part I think seems fairly robust and sound. 2046 02:01:32,480 --> 02:01:34,840 Speaker 1: The other thing was, though that we drew the conclusion 2047 02:01:35,880 --> 02:01:39,440 Speaker 1: that domestication took place in northeast Asia rather than sort 2048 02:01:39,480 --> 02:01:42,400 Speaker 1: of further west. And I know some of the dog 2049 02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:47,200 Speaker 1: genetic folks, um pushed back on that a bit because 2050 02:01:47,280 --> 02:01:49,760 Speaker 1: they think domestication Again, this gets to the issue of 2051 02:01:49,800 --> 02:01:51,840 Speaker 1: you know, was there a single center of dog domestication 2052 02:01:51,960 --> 02:01:55,480 Speaker 1: or multiple Uh that's it's unresolved. But we offered that 2053 02:01:55,560 --> 02:01:58,520 Speaker 1: hypothesis in the paper that we think you know, they 2054 02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:01,920 Speaker 1: were domesticated in northeast Asian went both ways east and west. 2055 02:02:03,560 --> 02:02:08,640 Speaker 1: Good stuff, man, Oh, it's fantastic. The Spencer brought up, 2056 02:02:09,240 --> 02:02:12,960 Speaker 1: uh the college days, which a long long time ago now, 2057 02:02:13,600 --> 02:02:17,600 Speaker 1: and um, you know, you always you gotta mix of 2058 02:02:17,640 --> 02:02:19,560 Speaker 1: people who want to be in class and you gotta 2059 02:02:19,600 --> 02:02:22,160 Speaker 1: mix people who gotta be in class in order to 2060 02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:25,760 Speaker 1: check that box on their requirement list. And you got 2061 02:02:25,800 --> 02:02:29,280 Speaker 1: some people that ran in both both crowds depending on 2062 02:02:29,320 --> 02:02:33,320 Speaker 1: the class. Yeah. Oh yeah for sure. Uh. I can't 2063 02:02:33,320 --> 02:02:37,680 Speaker 1: help but think. I'm like, what's your take, Dr Meltzer, Like, 2064 02:02:38,200 --> 02:02:40,880 Speaker 1: how many of your students are going? You know, I 2065 02:02:41,040 --> 02:02:44,920 Speaker 1: listen to the Mediator podcast to get away from Dr Meltzer. 2066 02:02:47,160 --> 02:02:51,640 Speaker 1: Damn he followed me here. Um he stole that from 2067 02:02:51,640 --> 02:02:57,720 Speaker 1: the lecture. Look, you know today's today's college students. Um, 2068 02:02:58,000 --> 02:02:59,640 Speaker 1: I think it's a tough time to be in college. 2069 02:03:00,560 --> 02:03:04,120 Speaker 1: Just I mean, we have pemic, pandemic, the economic situation, 2070 02:03:04,360 --> 02:03:06,200 Speaker 1: you know what it, the likelihoods of jobs, all that 2071 02:03:06,240 --> 02:03:09,960 Speaker 1: good stuff, right, Um, And I know that what I 2072 02:03:10,040 --> 02:03:15,000 Speaker 1: do is not terribly useful. Just because it's not useful 2073 02:03:15,080 --> 02:03:19,280 Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's meaningless and so useful in the nuts 2074 02:03:19,280 --> 02:03:21,000 Speaker 1: and bolts kind of like, yeah, yeah, what are you 2075 02:03:21,000 --> 02:03:22,880 Speaker 1: gonna do? You're gonna make yourself a Clovis point and 2076 02:03:22,920 --> 02:03:26,520 Speaker 1: go out and survive. I don't think so. Um, maybe 2077 02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:28,800 Speaker 1: you could, Steve, but I couldn't. The line I got. 2078 02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:33,240 Speaker 1: I was a history anthropology major, and the line I 2079 02:03:33,280 --> 02:03:37,040 Speaker 1: got was are you gonna open a history store? Yeah? 2080 02:03:37,040 --> 02:03:41,280 Speaker 1: There you go, and you could. So my my job 2081 02:03:41,760 --> 02:03:45,360 Speaker 1: is to say, Okay, I know you're not coming in 2082 02:03:45,440 --> 02:03:50,120 Speaker 1: here necessarily because you're interested in what I do, but 2083 02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:54,520 Speaker 1: I will do my best to make it interesting for you. 2084 02:03:55,760 --> 02:03:57,760 Speaker 1: I will do my best to help you think about 2085 02:03:57,800 --> 02:04:01,320 Speaker 1: things that you otherwise wouldn't think about, and think about 2086 02:04:01,360 --> 02:04:03,839 Speaker 1: them in critical ways, and try and sort of transport 2087 02:04:03,920 --> 02:04:08,440 Speaker 1: yourself out of your business school environment. Right, let's take 2088 02:04:08,480 --> 02:04:11,080 Speaker 1: you back fifteen thousand years and think about what it's 2089 02:04:11,080 --> 02:04:14,600 Speaker 1: like to be on a landscape where you haven't seen 2090 02:04:14,640 --> 02:04:17,879 Speaker 1: any smoke on the horizon, you haven't seen any freshly 2091 02:04:17,960 --> 02:04:21,120 Speaker 1: killed animals, you haven't seen any other humans in a 2092 02:04:21,200 --> 02:04:23,760 Speaker 1: very long time, and you realize, wait a minute, I'm 2093 02:04:23,760 --> 02:04:28,240 Speaker 1: all alone here. But hey, the living looks pretty good here. 2094 02:04:28,280 --> 02:04:30,640 Speaker 1: How do I do that? How do I how do 2095 02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:33,640 Speaker 1: I make a living on this landscape? Right? So I 2096 02:04:33,720 --> 02:04:37,280 Speaker 1: try and and give people the sense of what it 2097 02:04:37,320 --> 02:04:41,000 Speaker 1: would have been like to come into a completely new world, 2098 02:04:41,200 --> 02:04:43,520 Speaker 1: not a new world in the European sense of well, 2099 02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, we finished trashing the old world, now we're 2100 02:04:45,800 --> 02:04:47,720 Speaker 1: going to go to the new world. This this truly 2101 02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:50,440 Speaker 1: was a new world back then, and what would that 2102 02:04:50,520 --> 02:04:53,720 Speaker 1: have been like? So yeah, I get it that they're 2103 02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:56,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily coming in because they really want to learn 2104 02:04:56,200 --> 02:04:59,680 Speaker 1: about archaeology, um, but I think they'll take something away 2105 02:04:59,680 --> 02:05:02,400 Speaker 1: from it, or at least I hope they do. I 2106 02:05:02,600 --> 02:05:05,760 Speaker 1: double minored in college. I got a minor and anthropology 2107 02:05:05,800 --> 02:05:08,440 Speaker 1: and a minor and health. And what I told people 2108 02:05:08,760 --> 02:05:11,480 Speaker 1: when I did this was that I got the minor 2109 02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:14,280 Speaker 1: and health because I also had a biology major, and 2110 02:05:14,360 --> 02:05:16,520 Speaker 1: so I could go into the midfield. If I wanted 2111 02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:18,920 Speaker 1: that the health minor would help me. The reality was 2112 02:05:19,480 --> 02:05:21,920 Speaker 1: that I was interested in anthropology, but I was a 2113 02:05:21,920 --> 02:05:25,000 Speaker 1: C student there. So if I also minored in health, 2114 02:05:25,120 --> 02:05:27,440 Speaker 1: I was an A student there and so I could 2115 02:05:27,560 --> 02:05:30,040 Speaker 1: carry my g p A. The anthropology was to entertain me. 2116 02:05:30,520 --> 02:05:33,800 Speaker 1: The health was just to like help with my resume. 2117 02:05:34,800 --> 02:05:40,720 Speaker 1: So anthropology is resume building, like the health. That's why 2118 02:05:40,800 --> 02:05:44,440 Speaker 1: we picked him off. He tanked the interview that I 2119 02:05:44,440 --> 02:05:51,040 Speaker 1: got looking at him. Yeah, classes like yours, you got 2120 02:05:51,120 --> 02:05:55,280 Speaker 1: to see an anthropologist. Classes like yours kept me wildly entertained. 2121 02:05:55,680 --> 02:05:57,840 Speaker 1: Favorite stuff. Yeah, I like it. I know they lean 2122 02:05:57,920 --> 02:05:59,320 Speaker 1: on you a little bit over there and in the 2123 02:05:59,400 --> 02:06:02,320 Speaker 1: Ivory Tower, but uh, I like it that you take 2124 02:06:02,360 --> 02:06:05,040 Speaker 1: the time to come explain your work to people. Well, 2125 02:06:05,400 --> 02:06:11,919 Speaker 1: I mean, look, the greater public um genuinely is interested 2126 02:06:11,960 --> 02:06:14,960 Speaker 1: in what we do. They're not necessarily, you know, going 2127 02:06:15,000 --> 02:06:17,240 Speaker 1: to be taking a lot of classes and everything like that. 2128 02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:21,240 Speaker 1: But you know, people can find interest in things from 2129 02:06:21,280 --> 02:06:25,160 Speaker 1: the ancient past and do uh. And because a lot 2130 02:06:25,200 --> 02:06:29,080 Speaker 1: of archaeological research is supported by the greater public, it's 2131 02:06:29,080 --> 02:06:32,600 Speaker 1: it's only fair that we give back. Uh. So I 2132 02:06:32,600 --> 02:06:35,520 Speaker 1: don't like to just publish for my colleagues. I like 2133 02:06:35,640 --> 02:06:39,680 Speaker 1: to publish for a broader audience so that I can 2134 02:06:39,720 --> 02:06:42,960 Speaker 1: give back. So it's part of my responsibility as somebody 2135 02:06:43,000 --> 02:06:45,880 Speaker 1: who has spent his life in an Ivory tower, and 2136 02:06:45,960 --> 02:06:48,600 Speaker 1: I gotta say, Evory towers are awfully nice. Um. But 2137 02:06:48,640 --> 02:06:51,440 Speaker 1: it's also nice to get out once in a while, um, 2138 02:06:51,560 --> 02:06:55,240 Speaker 1: and to be able to share what I've learned because fundamentally, 2139 02:06:55,360 --> 02:06:57,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's the thing that interests me and I 2140 02:06:57,760 --> 02:06:59,880 Speaker 1: just think, well, it's going to interest others as well. 2141 02:07:00,600 --> 02:07:05,200 Speaker 1: Be fantastic. Okay, So uh, okay, how do they find 2142 02:07:05,320 --> 02:07:08,960 Speaker 1: if you want to see Mountaineer? What form is it? Like? 2143 02:07:09,000 --> 02:07:11,560 Speaker 1: How do they find it? Well, it's just on the 2144 02:07:11,600 --> 02:07:13,960 Speaker 1: south edge of town of Gunnison and you can't get 2145 02:07:14,400 --> 02:07:22,880 Speaker 1: the site the book starting on June. Okay, so this 2146 02:07:22,960 --> 02:07:25,920 Speaker 1: is my opportunity to Yeah, okay, if you were a 2147 02:07:25,920 --> 02:07:30,200 Speaker 1: big im I'm venturing you're not a big Instagram guy. 2148 02:07:30,480 --> 02:07:32,840 Speaker 1: Well you know. Okay, So I have to apologize to 2149 02:07:32,960 --> 02:07:36,760 Speaker 1: all the people who listened to the podcast the last 2150 02:07:36,760 --> 02:07:38,680 Speaker 1: time because you asked me at the very end, are 2151 02:07:38,720 --> 02:07:41,839 Speaker 1: you on Twitter? Are you on Instagram? And I admitted 2152 02:07:41,880 --> 02:07:43,680 Speaker 1: that I was on Instagram. What I didn't tell you 2153 02:07:43,800 --> 02:07:47,800 Speaker 1: was I only had six followers and they were my kids. 2154 02:07:47,920 --> 02:07:49,880 Speaker 1: And the only reason I was on Instagram was to 2155 02:07:49,880 --> 02:07:51,640 Speaker 1: send them pictures of where I was in the world 2156 02:07:51,640 --> 02:07:55,720 Speaker 1: at any given time. And I got literally almost three 2157 02:07:56,160 --> 02:08:00,120 Speaker 1: requests to join me on Instagram. Deny them all. I 2158 02:08:00,120 --> 02:08:03,760 Speaker 1: I just again, I apologize to everybody can listen, but 2159 02:08:04,080 --> 02:08:08,040 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't publish anything of interest on Instagram, 2160 02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:11,400 Speaker 1: So speak to them. Uh, this is your It's an 2161 02:08:11,400 --> 02:08:16,240 Speaker 1: elaborate Instagram post called a book. It's like if you 2162 02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:18,200 Speaker 1: could pack a whole lot of pictures and a whole 2163 02:08:18,200 --> 02:08:20,960 Speaker 1: lot of texts a single Instagram post, it would be 2164 02:08:20,960 --> 02:08:22,680 Speaker 1: called and bundle it as a book. It would be 2165 02:08:22,680 --> 02:08:26,080 Speaker 1: called The Mountaineer Site and it will be out in 2166 02:08:26,160 --> 02:08:32,000 Speaker 1: June from the University of Colorad. It's called the Mountaineer Site. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, 2167 02:08:32,080 --> 02:08:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm confirming with Karan. It's got a subtitle to um, 2168 02:08:35,080 --> 02:08:38,000 Speaker 1: what's the subtitle? I don't know. We're checking, but it's 2169 02:08:38,000 --> 02:08:39,880 Speaker 1: like it's a book. Yeah, oh yeah, it's a book. 2170 02:08:39,960 --> 02:08:45,640 Speaker 1: It's a book. Um. And and then color photos No, sorry, 2171 02:08:45,680 --> 02:08:48,040 Speaker 1: but I'll tell you. The cover photo is gorgeous. The 2172 02:08:48,040 --> 02:08:51,320 Speaker 1: cover photo was taken by my colleague, uh, Steve Emsley 2173 02:08:51,360 --> 02:08:53,680 Speaker 1: of the Mountain in Winter. Oh here we go. Okay, 2174 02:08:53,720 --> 02:08:58,400 Speaker 1: so what's the subtitle? Hard to read on my website, 2175 02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:03,000 Speaker 1: it's something like a Fulesome Winter Camp in the Rockies 2176 02:09:03,080 --> 02:09:08,520 Speaker 1: or the Mountaineer site a Fulesome Winter Camp in the Rockies. 2177 02:09:08,680 --> 02:09:11,280 Speaker 1: Or you could learn about the Mountaineer site, which is 2178 02:09:11,280 --> 02:09:16,120 Speaker 1: a new site in the revised update the tenuere revised 2179 02:09:16,200 --> 02:09:20,880 Speaker 1: update of First People's in a New World, which is 2180 02:09:21,160 --> 02:09:23,840 Speaker 1: it's a compending. I don't know how you describe it's 2181 02:09:23,880 --> 02:09:27,200 Speaker 1: it's just like I said earlier, it's the whole damn store. 2182 02:09:27,760 --> 02:09:30,960 Speaker 1: It's everything I know. There's nothing left, guys to someone. Yeah, 2183 02:09:31,000 --> 02:09:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, I remember the old days, like the Greeks 2184 02:09:32,520 --> 02:09:34,880 Speaker 1: or whoever. They were into this idea called the sum 2185 02:09:34,960 --> 02:09:37,400 Speaker 1: of all knowledge. Like they had the idea that a 2186 02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:43,680 Speaker 1: person could um no everything that was known the last person. 2187 02:09:43,720 --> 02:09:45,040 Speaker 1: That's hard to pull off now, yeah, I know, I 2188 02:09:45,080 --> 02:09:47,920 Speaker 1: think good. It was the last person in the or something, 2189 02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:50,640 Speaker 1: the last person who knew everything, like like all knowledge 2190 02:09:50,680 --> 02:09:54,000 Speaker 1: all you know, mathematics, astronomy, all, yeah, I know every 2191 02:09:54,120 --> 02:09:55,600 Speaker 1: I know a lot of things in a very small 2192 02:09:55,720 --> 02:09:58,080 Speaker 1: niche and that's about the best I can and it's 2193 02:09:58,160 --> 02:10:01,880 Speaker 1: captured beautifully, beautifully and first people in the New World, 2194 02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:08,320 Speaker 1: Dr David Meltzer, I'm gonna I remembered from last last time, 2195 02:10:08,840 --> 02:10:12,320 Speaker 1: it was David J. Meltzer. Not to be confused with 2196 02:10:12,360 --> 02:10:15,200 Speaker 1: the beat poet, not to be confused with the guy 2197 02:10:15,240 --> 02:10:17,440 Speaker 1: that writes about wrestling, and not to be confused with 2198 02:10:17,480 --> 02:10:19,960 Speaker 1: the business person David Meltzer who I get all sorts 2199 02:10:20,000 --> 02:10:24,280 Speaker 1: of David J. Meltzer, Anthropologists, Southern Methods, Methodist Universe, Southern 2200 02:10:24,280 --> 02:10:28,280 Speaker 1: Methoist University SMU in Texas. That one for as great 2201 02:10:28,320 --> 02:10:31,520 Speaker 1: as uh your work is, and it's how smart you are. Um. 2202 02:10:31,520 --> 02:10:33,480 Speaker 1: I fell into this trap after the last podcast. I 2203 02:10:33,480 --> 02:10:37,800 Speaker 1: typed in David Meltzer books and I found a book 2204 02:10:37,800 --> 02:10:41,320 Speaker 1: called Mushroom Cultivation Self Guide to Mushrooms from all over 2205 02:10:41,360 --> 02:10:44,760 Speaker 1: the World. When I was real like, I was like this, 2206 02:10:44,760 --> 02:10:48,640 Speaker 1: this guy just has all my interest and then and 2207 02:10:48,680 --> 02:10:51,600 Speaker 1: then I was like, he's got to have a cat book, 2208 02:10:53,920 --> 02:10:57,600 Speaker 1: the perfect guy. Thanks for having me, honest, I really 2209 02:10:57,600 --> 02:11:01,240 Speaker 1: appreciate your work on mushrooms. Oh and also North Thing 2210 02:11:01,280 --> 02:11:05,160 Speaker 1: Bear Grease podcast. Clay Newcombe. Newcombe who's been on this 2211 02:11:05,200 --> 02:11:08,160 Speaker 1: show many times. Every time Clay's on the show, people 2212 02:11:08,160 --> 02:11:10,160 Speaker 1: are like, man, that guy ought to have his own podcast. 2213 02:11:10,200 --> 02:11:14,160 Speaker 1: Well he does. It's called bear Grease. It's like a 2214 02:11:14,240 --> 02:11:21,640 Speaker 1: it's a history podcast, history, history, folklore, culture, history done 2215 02:11:21,640 --> 02:11:27,080 Speaker 1: and Clay's unique style. It's investigative. Bear Grease Podcasts part 2216 02:11:27,080 --> 02:11:37,360 Speaker 1: of the Meat Eater podcast Network. Listen now, Thank you everybody,