1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Carol Marcowig Show on iHeartRadio. My 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: guest today is Josh Holmes. Josh is a partner at 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: calalry LC and co host of the Ruthless podcast. It's 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: so nice to have you. 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: On, Josh, Oh, it's great. Thank you for having me. 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: I love your show, I love your twitter feed. I've 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: been a huge fan of yours for many years, and 8 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: I'm really. 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: Excited to learn more about you. 10 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: I don't feel like I know a lot about your 11 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: background or about how you got into this. You know, 12 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: a thing of ours. So how did it start for you? 13 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: How did you get into politics? 14 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: Well, the feeling is mutual. Obviously, been an admirer of 15 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 2: your work a lot over the years. Yeah, it's a 16 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: roundabout way of getting here. For me. I grew up 17 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: in Minnesota and had, you know, the time of my life, 18 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 2: sort of an ideal upbringing in a lot of different ways. 19 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: But when it was time for college and like professional 20 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 2: you know, imaginement at some level, like what is that 21 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: you do? I went to Arizona State University, and I 22 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: wish I could tell you that that was an academic decision. 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: Hey that's a party school, right, Yeah, well it Wins Awards. 24 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: At the time, at the year that I was going, 25 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 2: it was number one one Wow. And I applied to 26 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: two schools, Arizona State and the University of Florida, and 27 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: Arizona State said yes first, and so that's where I went, 28 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 2: which is a long way from Minnesota. And it had 29 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: absolutely nothing to do with what it is that I 30 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 2: wanted to or thought I wanted to do for a living. 31 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 3: But which was what what were you thinking? 32 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: I didn't know. I mean, you know, like so many 33 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: young people, you just have no idea of what it 34 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: is that you're good at, you know, And I like, 35 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: I think this is at some point an indictment of 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: education and education systems. At some point I found nothing 37 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: that I was super excited about it. 38 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: No, you haven't used the Patagonora theorem since you learned 39 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: about it? 40 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: No, I mean the last math class I took Carol 41 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: was called math. 42 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: Same I recently learned as a thing as math dyslexia, 43 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure I have it. 44 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: But I mean, so I went down there to basically 45 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: have a good time. But I also you know, in 46 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 2: the process, I had a medical procedure when I was 47 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: in my second year. I had brain surgery, believe or not. 48 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: And you know, I was something less than a good 49 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: student the first year year and a half that I 50 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: was at Arizona State. I was more interested in the 51 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 2: social scene. But I had this this issue where I 52 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: had brain surgery. And I remember sitting in the hospital 53 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: bed where all my friends were coming in one after 54 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: one just to wish me well and try to cheer 55 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: me up. And I was there for several weeks and 56 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: they were talking all about what they were doing and 57 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: all the career advancement or internships whatever that they were 58 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: interested in. And I remember at that moment thinking to myself, Man, 59 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: I got to kind of get this thing together, like 60 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: I I certainly don't want. 61 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: Because had brain surgery. I feel like if you could 62 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: take it easy at any point, it might be that moment. 63 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: Well, I think the problem was that I took it 64 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 2: easy for a couple a long time before that, and 65 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: it required a kick in the ass, to be honest 66 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: with you, it required a observing that other people were 67 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: moving on with life after high school and you know, 68 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: your early part of college, and they were focused on something, 69 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: and so you know, that was kind of the moment 70 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: I started focusing a little bit on school, and then 71 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: what did I wanted to do? 72 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 3: So what did you want to do? 73 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 2: I didn't I still didn't know. I started doing some 74 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: journalism stuff back then, in large part because I grew 75 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: up in a family that was really big into news, 76 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: really big into politics, although it wasn't my politics. I mean, 77 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: I grew up all the way from Ronald Reagan just 78 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: being a diehard Republican. Both my parents grew up as Democrats. 79 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: But I kind of knew where I was on all 80 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 2: of that, and I thought, well, news and information is 81 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 2: pretty powerful, and maybe this would be a business that 82 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 2: I wanted to go into. But then I spent you know, 83 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: the first couple of semesters everybody telling me about the 84 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: history of news and Edward R. Murreaw and everything else, and. 85 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 3: I was like, no, no, this is not for me. 86 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, this is probably not the thing. 87 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: So I got out of it. And you know, both 88 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: my parents were attorneys, and so I thought, you know, 89 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 2: maybe pret law, maybe something like that. And they had 90 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 2: a program at the time at Arizona State that was 91 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: like a it was like a double minor type thing 92 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 2: was called interdisciplinary studies, whereas justice studies and political science 93 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: that kind of combined that where they could get a 94 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: lot of people into law school. And I thought that's 95 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: what I wanted to do at the time. 96 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 3: So did you do it? 97 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 2: Nope? 98 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 3: I sure did do Where did you go? Tell us 99 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 3: about it? 100 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: I think what happened to me was my dad convinced 101 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 2: me at some level to come out to Washington, d C. 102 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: And just spend an internship program. And there was this 103 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: Washington semester program through American University that gives you a 104 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: little entree into the political world. And obviously, I'm from 105 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: the middle of Minnesota. I have no idea. I've got 106 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: no connections, My dad's got no connection, my you know, 107 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 2: mom's got no connections, nothing connected to Washington, DC. But 108 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: he's like, why don't you just go out and try it? 109 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: And I did and I was there for ten days 110 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 2: in nine to eleven. Happened Wow, And that fundamentally changed 111 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 2: the trajectory of me and what I wanted to do. 112 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: And I think the rest is history of it. 113 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: So it's interesting that your dad encouraged you to go 114 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: to DC even though you guys were politically opposed. Like 115 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: I think about that with my own kids. If my 116 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: kids end up being libs. Am I going to be like, yeah, 117 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: you go pursue those dreams, you know, you go. 118 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 3: Work for me the matters. 119 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: I don't know. 120 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: I don't know that I would be so like, you know, 121 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't like dissuade them, But I also don't 122 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: think i'd be like a big cheerleader for it. 123 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 2: But your dad was, yeah, well, I mean his politics 124 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 2: were changing too, you know. I think I think my 125 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: parents had a fundamental realignment after nine to eleven, which 126 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: coincided with me. My brother were in Lower Manhattan and 127 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 2: I was at this point an intern in DC, and 128 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 2: if you remember nine to eleven, nobody could get a 129 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: hold of anybody. Yeah, and so it just fundamentally realigned 130 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: their point of view. But like from a personal experience, 131 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: it realigned what I wanted to do and where I 132 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: thought I could make a difference in what I was 133 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: interested in. And I just really dug in at that point. 134 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: And you know, everybody's got a different pathway. But when 135 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: you see something that gives you energy, do you think 136 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: you're good at do you think you can provide value 137 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: for you? Charge forward? Even as a young person. And 138 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: I never would have imagined that all of that would 139 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: have led to you know, my experiences over the last 140 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: twenty years, but it did. 141 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: So how did you guys get into cavalry? What was 142 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: the impetus for that? 143 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: Well, that's a longer story a little bit. And that 144 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: I got into politics. I did the first time I 145 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: was in the United States Senate. I couldn't figure out 146 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: why it was that everyone spent so much time talking 147 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: about things that were never going to happen. You know, Yeah, 148 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: it just it frustrated me. And you get that, you know, 149 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: I'm sure your listeners all can identify with this. You 150 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: get this component somewhere between when you get into the 151 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: workforce in your late twenties where you look at things 152 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: and you're like, well, I can do the job better 153 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: than the person who's like supposed to be managing me, 154 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: but I'm not recognized as such. And there's a frustration 155 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: involved in all of that. And so I kind of 156 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 2: switched things up and I wanted to go into communications. 157 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: I was in policy, and I met Ken Melman, who 158 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: was then two thousand and four presidential campaign manager for 159 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: George W. Bush, who brought me into the R and C. 160 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: At the time, we had a historically bad election in 161 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: two thousand and six, but I met a whole bunch 162 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: of people who were just really good people, thoughtful people, 163 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: and had hilarious, dark humor about it. 164 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 3: It's really important, actually. 165 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they could make the worst time not 166 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: feel like work. And I was attracted to the whole situation. 167 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: And Melman at some point introduced me to McConnell, who 168 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: was just becoming leader was elected in the fall of 169 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: two thousand and six, and McConnell said to Melman, I 170 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: got to revamp all Republican communications at some level. I mean, 171 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: if you went into like the Republican conference in the 172 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: Senate at that time, they were doing like these weird 173 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: tape like pre tape things. It looked like they I 174 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: mean I remember walking into one. It was Ted Stevens 175 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: and they had this whole bumper music. There was like 176 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 2: did did te today? We bring you the Ted Stevens Show, 177 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: And then he would talk about the most boring shit 178 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 2: on the face of the planet. Yeah, and then they 179 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,239 Speaker 2: would just take it and ship it back to Alaska. 180 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: And I was like, this is like, we're in a 181 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: different tyle. The Internet is like a real thing. At 182 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: this point, and so, and mcconnor recognized that too, and 183 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: so he asked me to come in and help run 184 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 2: this new communications unit that he was using. And my 185 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: promise to him was that I would be there for 186 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: six months or so to make sure that they got 187 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: up and running, and then I was going to go 188 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: do a presidential campaign or something like that. And I 189 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 2: remember there was a couple of moments in there that 190 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, this guy doesn't He's not talking 191 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: about anything that's not going to happen. He only talks 192 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: about what is going to happen. And it was a 193 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: funda fundamental reversal from where my whole point of view 194 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: Sentate government was. 195 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 3: So what was the next step? What happened then? 196 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: So we got you know, look, there's a ton of 197 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: war stories with I would go out and do campaigns, 198 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: then I'd come back to the Senate and go out 199 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: and do campaigns and come back to the Senate. But 200 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 2: there was a synthesis there where I got to work 201 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 2: with really good people. And I think if there's one 202 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: fundamental takeaway from my career at that stage was when 203 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: you get good, decent people were doing things for the 204 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: right reasons that you understand and you job with and 205 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: you can create and do things bigger than you can 206 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 2: do individually. You don't want to lose that. You want 207 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: to make that a central part of what you're doing. 208 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: And so all of that ran up until twenty fourteen, 209 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: where you know, I'd work with John Ashbrook, who was 210 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 2: a co host of Ruthless, and I always felt like, 211 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 2: if the two of us are in our room, we 212 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: can figure out any problem, yeah, no matter how bad 213 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: it is. And there was a number of other people 214 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 2: that were involved in all of that, and so we 215 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 2: started a company after we got out of government service. 216 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: It's called Cavalry, where we tried to basically take what 217 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: it is that we learned over the last seven eight 218 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: years of government and politics and advocacy and everything else 219 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 2: to try to bring it to a larger marketplace. That was, 220 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 2: i mean largely operating on a nineteen eighties footprint, right. 221 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: It was like if you read Gucci gulch of like 222 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 2: shoe leather lobbying, that's basically where things were in the 223 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: early twenty tens. And the world had changed, and so 224 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: we wanted to get involved in. 225 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 226 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 227 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 3: How did Ruthless Start? 228 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: That was a funnier story. So Johnny and I at 229 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: that point it worked together, and Duncan and I had 230 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: worked together since twenty fourteen since that a great campaign 231 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 2: cycle we had. And so we were watching the change 232 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: in media. And it used to be that you would 233 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: hire a pr agency or do whatever you can to 234 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: fight like hell to get the quote that tried to 235 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: refute the premise of a mainstream news studio at some 236 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 2: point in like the sixteenth paragraph, and that was like 237 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: considered to be a win. But we were watching audiences change, 238 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 2: and at some level, audiences were becoming larger than the 239 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: mainstream media outlets themselves, and so we put a lot 240 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: of thought into it. Meanwhile, we were huge fans of. 241 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: Smug, competably Smug, my favorite liberal friend. 242 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly right. So on X, his sense of 243 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: humor is a reverend sense of humor. His engagement or whatever. 244 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: In the early days of X like blocked out the sun. 245 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: I mean, he was everything. 246 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: He was everything, and one day he asked all of 247 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: us to go have a happy hour with him out 248 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: of nowhere. We'd never met him, and I was like, 249 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 2: I got to see what this guy looks like. I 250 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 2: have no clue. It's an anonymous figure. And we went 251 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: and had the time of our lives and at the 252 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: end of it, Smug says to me, Hey, I got 253 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: an idea. Do you mind if I come by the 254 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: office in the next couple. 255 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: Of weeks with smugs idea. 256 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: Huh, Well, here's the funny part of the story. He 257 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: comes into the office and he's got this memo that 258 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: outlines what it would be like to have a media 259 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: company and a podcast that basically uses humor in large 260 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: part to sort of skewer and make commentary on what's 261 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: happening with like a leftist media and leftist narratives and whatever. 262 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: At the same time, we had worked at on one 263 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: ourselves and presented him with a PowerPoint. It was literally 264 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: the same idea. Wow, it was literally the same idea. 265 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: And so at that point, like we knew we had 266 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: to do something. And then it COVID hits and we're 267 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: all sitting at home because nobody in DC. It wouldn't 268 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: allow you to come into DC, and uh. We started 269 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: this happy hour zoom call where we would have a 270 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: bourbon at the end of the day, talk about whatever, 271 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 2: bat on some horses because that was like the only 272 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: thing that was still going. They're like sports members. 273 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 3: Shutting down gambling, that's crazy. 274 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: Sports were largely canceled, which is what we all do. 275 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: And so horse racing was like. 276 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 3: In baseball, right, yeah. 277 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: Like horse racing was it. And so you know, we 278 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: bet on some ponies and talk and we were like, no, 279 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: this is a good cadence, like maybe we should figure 280 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: out how to format this. And when we launched Ruthless, 281 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: it was like a a real flyer. Like I don't 282 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: think any of us thought it was going to be 283 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 2: the thing I thought. You know, we thought it was 284 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: a one point zero version to try to test the 285 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 2: marketplace because none of us knew anything about podcasting. 286 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 287 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: In fact, like Duncan and Ashbrook were like teaching themselves 288 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: how to edit audio and get it online. But our 289 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: third episode, I think was it went to number one 290 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: on the political charts, and we thought at that point, well, 291 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 2: I think we got an obligation to try to do this. 292 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: And it was a weird period of time. It was 293 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: the end of twenty twenty. It was between you know, 294 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 2: the twenty twenty election and January sixth where we were 295 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to get a foothold and 296 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 2: conservative politics. It was it was tough, and we were 297 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: very conflicted about a whole bunch of it. But once 298 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: we emerged from that, we realized that the real conversation 299 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 2: we were having is the conversation everybody else is having 300 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: at the bar. 301 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: Right, I don't know what you guys do so well, 302 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: and if I could just give you some compliments, I 303 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 1: think you're so honest. Like, I don't think any of 304 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: you are fronting anything. And there's a lot of different 305 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: you know, there's movement in the conservative world. There's changes 306 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: all the time, but you guys are who you are. 307 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: And you know, I got my jokes about Smug, but 308 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: I always thought that about him, that he is who 309 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: he is and he is not trying to pretend to 310 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: be anything else. 311 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that's a fair assessment. I 312 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: mean for Smug and the other three Duncan, Ashbrook and 313 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 2: I it's not worth doing. Yeah, if you have to 314 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: come up with some version of yourself, it is not 315 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 2: what it is. 316 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 3: You're not You're not adjusting to anything. 317 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: It is what I mean, Like, you know, you do 318 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: see in the conservative You know, things changed very rapidly, 319 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: and what was cool a year ago might not be 320 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: cool today. 321 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 3: And I don't think that you guys are like seeking 322 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 3: out the next thing. 323 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: You're not catering to what the next thing might be, 324 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: or or trying to find an audience, a newer audience 325 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: or anything like that. 326 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I mean because we didn't have to do it. 327 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: It was a luxury. I understand that people who do 328 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 2: have to do it, and this is all they do 329 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: for a living. And you know, you want to stay 330 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 2: a step ahead of where the electorate is. But you know, 331 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: we had, you know, two advantages in that regard. One 332 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 2: is that our job was to stay ahead of the 333 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 2: electorate in a lot of different ways over the previous 334 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 2: fifteen years. And the second piece of it was we 335 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: don't need. 336 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 3: To do this, right, that's it. 337 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: If it's not fun, and it's not, we can't laugh 338 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: back up, man, go do something else. 339 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 3: That's what makes it so good. I really, I really 340 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 3: believe that we're. 341 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: Going to take a quick break and be right back 342 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: on the Carol Marcowitch. 343 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 3: Show Switching gears. What do you worry about? 344 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 2: Look, I worry about where the information flow is in 345 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: this country. I counter so many people and you can 346 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 2: see this play out live on cable news every day, 347 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 2: that exclusively subscribe to one information flow cylinder rather than another. 348 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 2: And they never it's always a self rewarding choice right 349 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: where it's like they've got previous convictions about something, anything 350 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 2: that sort of fills that cylinder, that's their exclusive view 351 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: of the strate. And you know, in the era of 352 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: the Internet and podcasts and all of these other things, 353 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 2: it concerns me now the upside of the era that 354 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: we're in is that you have a choice other than CBS, 355 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: ABC and NBC right to give you the true story 356 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: of what's happening. I think we've found out over the 357 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: last eight years or so they're. 358 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 3: Not Yeah, they're a bunch of liars. 359 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 2: Yes, they're not equipped to do that, which which is fine, 360 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: But I do I do concern myself a little bit 361 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 2: with people self radicalizing. Yeah, And it's not just you know, 362 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: this isn't a right or center or a left of 363 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 2: center thing. It's about your choice of trying to be 364 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: intellectually curious and understand your neighbor right and and I 365 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 2: think too often your choices of what you consume and 366 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: using information affects your interaction with your neighbor. I hate that. 367 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 368 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 2: I have a really good friend who works on Capitol 369 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 2: Hill who's just telling me on Sunday that they moved 370 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 2: into a new house next to somebody and they went up, 371 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: you know, like a basket of muffins or something, as 372 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 2: one does. Sure, it's like, you know, I'm your new neighbor. 373 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: You know, just wanted to get to know you and 374 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 2: this person basically the response was, We've googled you, we 375 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 2: know who you are, we've seen your ex account, we 376 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 2: know what you do. We're not interested in a relationship. 377 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: Wow. 378 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: That is And you know it's a You're talking about 379 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 2: somebody who's a staffer on the Republican side and somebody 380 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: who's obviously a dogmatic liberal. And I worry about that, 381 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: ye because I just think like the shared experience in 382 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: the United States has always been part of our story. Empathy, understanding, 383 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: and persuasion. Yeah, and if you don't have that in 384 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 2: some combination, I worry a lot about where that goes from. 385 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand people siloing a little bit, Like, Look, 386 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: I moved to Florida. 387 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 3: I wanted to be in a red state. 388 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: I you know, I had never lived anywhere where anybody 389 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: agreed with me before, So I get the wanting to 390 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: be in. 391 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 3: A little bit of a bubble. 392 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: But you know, if a liberal moves next door to me, 393 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: then a liberal moves next door to me, it's not 394 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's not like I can't possibly be friends 395 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: with you. And I think that, yeah, it's it is 396 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: really sad that that's where we've gotten. I think that, 397 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to just blame the left, 398 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: but I feel like this happens way more from the 399 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: left than I don't. 400 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 2: It's much more entire Yeah, no question about it. I mean, look, 401 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: I all my conservative friends, this doesn't enter their lexicon, 402 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 2: Like whether I can talk to somebody or not talk 403 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: to somebody doesn't revolve around whether they're a liberal or 404 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 2: a conservative. 405 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: But your friends with smug so. 406 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, he's going to love this. 407 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 3: This, this is what it's all about. 408 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 2: Actually, But I mean that is increasingly. It started with 409 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 2: cancel culture, and it started with Me Too movement and 410 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: all these other pieces of what has become of the 411 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 2: left left where they're just willing to just cut off 412 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: like they don't exist anybody that doesn't agree with them, 413 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: and I think that's dangerous. 414 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: Very yeah, because you don't know, it could be it 415 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: could be your kids again, you know. I think about 416 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: stuff like that all the time, and the fact that 417 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: people cut off each other of a politics, especially family, like, 418 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: don't do that, guys, just don't do it. 419 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 2: Dumb. 420 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: So, looking back on your life and career, what advice 421 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: would you give your sixteen year old self? 422 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 3: Do you still go to the party school? 423 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 2: I do absolutely like the parties were fun, unquestionably. Look, 424 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 2: I think everybody's different, and this is I think. You know, 425 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: when I hear people much more successful than I am 426 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: try to give standard advice on a question like that 427 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: too often, it's it's it subscribes to an idea of 428 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 2: the we're all the same at every point in our life, 429 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 2: and we're not. I mean, I was sixteen. I was 430 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: a reckless, crazy party kid. I needed a little bit 431 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 2: of guidance, but more than anything, I needed something productive 432 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: to be inspired by. I went through a long period 433 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 2: of time there where I just wasn't I didn't know 434 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 2: what I wanted to do, but it landed on me 435 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 2: at some point I mentioned that the nine to eleven 436 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 2: thing and it just it created all the energy that 437 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: I used to be unproductive. I understood that I now 438 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 2: wanted to do something to be productive. But there are 439 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 2: other kids who you know, they're studying all day and 440 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: night in high school and they want to go do me. 441 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 2: But kids, you know, yeah, but they wanted you know 442 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 2: what I mean. And you've met these people. Some of 443 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 2: them are very very successful where they just they're very 444 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 2: focused on we have to do X Y Z, I 445 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 2: need to get into IVY League school and do all 446 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 2: these other things. For those people, I would say, go 447 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: have fun. 448 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, like go. 449 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 2: In less. You understand the full panoply of life and 450 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: what it has to offer. At some point in life, 451 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 2: you're going to be resentful of what you didn't do 452 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: unless you checked it all out. And you know, you 453 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: hear a lot about midlife crisises and all these other things, 454 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: like it's going to visit you when you're just monocularly 455 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: focused on one thing and you need to be this 456 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 2: one person and at some point it's not authentic. So 457 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 2: you got to find your authentic self. I will say 458 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: the second piece of it is prepare when you're a 459 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 2: young person to go through a decade of your twenties, 460 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 2: if you want to be successful of just grinding, just grinding. 461 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 3: If my twenty year olds still do that, I feel like, no. 462 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 2: Maybe not, but it's going to be a problem for them. Yeah, 463 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 2: I mean, I know, I think some do. I think 464 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who do. But what's 465 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 2: most important is that you understand that the work that 466 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 2: you put into setting the infrastructure for who you become, 467 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: both in terms of what you're able to do and 468 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 2: who you are as a person, is so important to 469 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: not be the thirty eight year old, forty five year old, 470 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: fifty year old who is resentful, angry, and counterproductive and 471 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 2: is basically going to work every morning just to pay 472 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: the bills and get through the day. Right. I mean, 473 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 2: that's where you set the bar. You're building all those things. 474 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: If you're demonstrated value between twenty two and thirty five 475 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: is such that everybody sort of recognizes what it is 476 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: that you do. When you're thirty eight. 477 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 3: That's where you want to be. 478 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: It's easier, it's easier, and then your authenticity as a 479 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: person can come through and you learn a lot about 480 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: yourself in those in those days, because it's not easy. 481 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: No, Yeah, I love that I've loved this conversation. I've 482 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: loved getting to know you. I think that everything you 483 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: do is awesome and I love to follow your career 484 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: and wish you all possible success. Leave us here, you 485 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: gave us some good advice, but leave us here with 486 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: your best tip for my listeners on how they can 487 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: improve their lives. And maybe maybe it is the live 488 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: authentically and and pursue your passions. 489 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I think that's a big part 490 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 2: of it. More and more importantly is do not disregard 491 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 2: the people you surround yourself with. Make sure that those 492 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: people are people who lift you up. You're not you're 493 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: not associating with him because you think you can get 494 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: something out of him. Yeah or right? I mean these 495 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 2: are these are like true blue go to war with 496 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: have a great time with people who are just they're 497 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: there with you. You can go so far out on 498 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: a limb if you look back and you know everybody's 499 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: got you, like they're they're going to be there for you, 500 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: whether it goes good or whether it goes horribly like 501 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: these are these are people who can support you, and 502 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 2: once you do that, you're willing to take risks. Uh 503 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 2: not all of them are going to go well, but 504 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: I mean some of them do. And that's going to 505 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 2: ultimately define your professional life in one former fashion. 506 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 3: I love that. 507 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: And if you haven't found those people, keep looking, don't settle. 508 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 3: Yep, he is Josh Holmes. Check him out on the 509 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: Ruthless Podcast. 510 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Josh, Thank you, Carol,