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Speaker 1: Hi, Get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and this is the

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Speaker 1: Bengals Booth Podcast The Saints Come Marching. In addition, as

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Speaker 1: we get you set for Sunday's game at Paul Brown

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Speaker 1: Stadium between the five and three Bengals and the seven

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Speaker 1: and one New Orleans Saints, coming up some outstanding material

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Speaker 1: for football junkies, as you'll hear from two guests who

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Speaker 1: are great at looking at the game from different perspectives. First,

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Speaker 1: you'll hear from the tape study guy Greg Cosell from

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Speaker 1: NFL Films and ESPN. He's one of the very best

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Speaker 1: at studying the game tape and explaining the x's and

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Speaker 1: oh's without either confusing you or putting you to sleep.

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Speaker 1: And then you'll hear from the analytics guy Sam Monson

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Speaker 1: from Pro Football Focus, the website where they grade every

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Speaker 1: player on every play. Before you hear from Greg and Sam,

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Speaker 1: i'll discuss the latest Bengals news and look ahead to

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Speaker 1: Sunday's game with my broadcast partner Dave Lappam. All of

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Speaker 1: that is right ahead, but first, here's a quick reminder

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Speaker 1: that you can have the latest edition of this podcast

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Speaker 1: delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing

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Speaker 1: on iTunes, Stitcher, or pod Bean. It's the greatest invention

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Speaker 1: since listening to the radio online or on an app.

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Speaker 1: As many of you know, I also broadcast University of

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Speaker 1: Cincinnati basketball games, and following Wednesday season opener against Ohio State,

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Speaker 1: I got a text message from a buddy who is

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Speaker 1: currently in China on business and he wanted to let

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Speaker 1: me know that he listened to the broadcast in Shanghai.

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Speaker 1: I know that Bengals fans all over the world do

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Speaker 1: the same thing every Sunday, and if you're one of them,

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Speaker 1: leave a comment and let me know. All right, time

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Speaker 1: to talk football with Dave Lapham Lap. We thought the

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Speaker 1: Bengals would get healthier after the bye week. Now comes

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Speaker 1: the news that aj Green is likely to be out

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Speaker 1: for a few weeks at least with a foot injury.

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Speaker 1: At least it sounds that way now what it seems

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Speaker 1: like this is a reoccurrence of a prior injury, potentially

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Speaker 1: because it's the same foot, same type of injury, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. Doesn't need to have surgery. That's that was

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Speaker 1: just confirmed, which is good news, But you don't know

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Speaker 1: how long he's going to be out. Because I remember

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Speaker 1: in that instance he had an insert put in his

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Speaker 1: shoe and tried to play and couldn't do it. So

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Speaker 1: he's going to be interesting how it unfolds as the

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Speaker 1: as the week and weeks go along. But yeah, when

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Speaker 1: you lose a guy like AJ Green, that's a that's

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Speaker 1: a that's a tough tyler. Boyd started a taste a

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Speaker 1: little bit what it's like to get double team. He's

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Speaker 1: going to taste at every snap. Now they're going to

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Speaker 1: tilt coverage to him, Odd and Tate. Unfortunately, due to

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Speaker 1: the injury to Carl lasson the ACL, he's on the

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Speaker 1: IR and it opened to barrossa spot and they brought

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Speaker 1: out and Tat up from the practice squad, and you know,

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Speaker 1: hopefully he gets this opportunity because he's one of those

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Speaker 1: guys that's open wh he's covered. You know, he's a

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Speaker 1: big guy, can box people out and can make catches.

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Speaker 1: The biggest thing to do is catch to football. You know,

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Speaker 1: see if he has some of a niche a role

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Speaker 1: carved out in the red zone or a third down packages,

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Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. So yeah, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be one of those cases Dan where there's not another

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Speaker 1: Aj Green. They're not going to be able to replace

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Speaker 1: him with another guy. So it's one of those old sayings.

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Speaker 1: Everybody do a little, nobody has to do a lot

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Speaker 1: because nobody's gonna be able to do what Aj Green

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Speaker 1: does just one person. Other people across the board are

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Speaker 1: gonna have to step up their game collectively to replace

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Speaker 1: aj Green. The Bengals will definitely be without Carl Lawson

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Speaker 1: for the rest of the year. He only had one

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Speaker 1: sack in the first half of the season lap, but

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Speaker 1: he was third on the team in quarterback hits behind

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Speaker 1: Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap. How is Carl Lawson playing

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Speaker 1: and who gets those snaps? I think Carl Lawson was

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Speaker 1: playing well in terms of, you know, making the quarterback

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Speaker 1: get off his spot. You know, he would a lot

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Speaker 1: of times he was the initial penetration guy and the

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Speaker 1: quarterback had to make a move as a result of

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Speaker 1: his effort to disrupt and then other guys would you know,

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Speaker 1: would benefit from it. So, I mean, he's he's a

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Speaker 1: definite factor in that edge rush. And there's there's no

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Speaker 1: doubt that, uh that Carlsson is a huge loss. There's

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Speaker 1: no question about it that Nickel pass rush. God, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna I think, play more snaps outside and not as

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Speaker 1: many as as a pass rushing defensive tackle and nicol

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Speaker 1: as Sam Hubbard. Sam is going to have to, uh

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Speaker 1: you know, be involved, and I think I think you'll

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Speaker 1: do well. You know, they got a rotation now where

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Speaker 1: they're they're basically down to four defensive ends, so you know,

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Speaker 1: Michael Johnson can go inside, Sam Hubbard can go inside.

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Speaker 1: Both those guys can slide inside and play nickel defensive

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Speaker 1: tackle and pass rush from there, you know, you can

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Speaker 1: have Jordan Willison, Carlos Dunlap on the edge. Then you

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Speaker 1: can also you know, leave Billings and Atkins in there

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Speaker 1: and let Hubbard and Michael Johnson take some snaps as

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Speaker 1: as defensive ends as well, you know, for a rotation standpoint,

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Speaker 1: so you have the versatility of Hubbard and Johnson being

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Speaker 1: able to do both to swing inside and stay on

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Speaker 1: the edge. And uh but I think I think that

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Speaker 1: their snaps will increase and I think Hubbards will decrease

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Speaker 1: as that as that you know that Nickel defensive tackle

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Speaker 1: pass rusher um and I think will it be will

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Speaker 1: they give the same look that Carl Lawson gave no,

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Speaker 1: you know, not not necessarily. But they both have their

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Speaker 1: own skill set and I think the Bengals will will

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Speaker 1: be fine with that with that rotation. But you know,

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Speaker 1: they're down to eight down to eight defensive lineman now

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Speaker 1: instead of nine with Carl Lawson going on on injury reserve.

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Speaker 1: They brought up out and tap and stayed with the

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Speaker 1: with the eight down lineman and just have a pure

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Speaker 1: rotation with four interior guys and four guys on the edge,

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Speaker 1: sticking with a D line. Adolphus Washington was in for

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Speaker 1: thirty five snaps in the last game. He had three tackles,

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Speaker 1: including a sack. He had another quarterback hit. How his

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Speaker 1: he looked since joining his hometown team. I think he's

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Speaker 1: what I thought he'd be in terms of he's pretty athletic.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's a guy that that he's a

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Speaker 1: big body guy, but he has great lateral movement, you know,

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Speaker 1: and he has a field burst. He can, he can penetrate,

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Speaker 1: he can he can move well, like I said, from

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Speaker 1: side to side. His lateral movement skills. The sack that

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Speaker 1: he got, everybody was fooled by the hard play fake

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Speaker 1: it was you know, it was It was a hard

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Speaker 1: play action run to the left away from him. He

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Speaker 1: was playing the defensive tackle on the opposite side, and

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Speaker 1: everybody linebackers included, everybody a bit hard and he didn't.

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Speaker 1: So he saw something reds He just took it straight

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Speaker 1: up the football field and as a result of that

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Speaker 1: got a quarterback sack, contained and corraled the quarterback individually,

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Speaker 1: and then took him to the ground. So that was

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Speaker 1: that was a really good play by him. And I

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Speaker 1: think as the season goes on and he becomes more

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Speaker 1: and more familiar with not only this defensive scheme and

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Speaker 1: terminology and everything goes along with it, but his teammates

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Speaker 1: and how guys you know. It's it's just like an

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Speaker 1: offensive lineman. I remember playing when when you first started

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Speaker 1: playing with a new tackle and the twists and stunts

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Speaker 1: and end penetrate tackle loop or the or the reverse

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Speaker 1: the tackle penetrate end loop. You have to have a

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Speaker 1: feel for what level. You know, one one tackle white

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Speaker 1: set a little bit deeper than the other. One guy

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Speaker 1: has longer legs, shorter arms. One guy is longer arm shortly.

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Speaker 1: You just have to get a feel for the for

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Speaker 1: the guy next to you, and it becomes an unspoken

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Speaker 1: you know communication, and then you don't even worry about it.

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Speaker 1: And you've done it so many times, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you pass that off, the tackles right there to take

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Speaker 1: when you're gonna take the looper. Well, same thing with

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Speaker 1: defensive lineman. You know they have to have a sense

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Speaker 1: and a feel for all right, is he going to

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Speaker 1: hit the gap hard? Is he gonna grab two? Is

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Speaker 1: he more of a penetrator that doesn't grab two, he

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Speaker 1: just grabs one. You know, there's different things that you

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Speaker 1: have to work through and the only way you can

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Speaker 1: do that is by repetition and practice. Repetition is one thing,

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Speaker 1: but in a game totally different ball game, you can

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Speaker 1: rep it fifty times in practice and will never unfold

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Speaker 1: the way to unfolds in a football game in live

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Speaker 1: action with you know guys you've never gone against as

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Speaker 1: an opposition. So there's a lot to that lap. According

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Speaker 1: to the website Pro Football Focus, where they grade every

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Speaker 1: player on every play, the highest graded Bengal at his

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Speaker 1: position is not Geno Atkins, who is tenth among interior lineman,

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Speaker 1: or A. J. Green, who is seventh among wide receivers.

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Speaker 1: It's rookie Jesse Bates, who ranks fourth among safeties. Does

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Speaker 1: that surprise you. I'm not shocked, maybe mildly surprised that

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Speaker 1: he transitioned as quickly as he did. I think they

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Speaker 1: had a lot of confidence in him because we've met

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Speaker 1: him and know how intelligent he is and focused he is,

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Speaker 1: and you know, he's, like we talked about Dan, he's

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Speaker 1: one of these rookies that seems like a ten year guy.

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Speaker 1: You know, Sam Hubbard and last year's rookie class had

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Speaker 1: willis the same type of guy. They they come in

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Speaker 1: as rookies and they act like they're you know, five

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Speaker 1: seven ten year pros already in terms of understanding what

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Speaker 1: it is to be a pro and how to get

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Speaker 1: ready mentally, physically, every way there is to do it.

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Speaker 1: And I do remember with him, veteran players saying during

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Speaker 1: the course of training camp, when I was asking about

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Speaker 1: him how he's doing back there, saying, remember him saying

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't hesitate to ask these veterans questions. And

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Speaker 1: then I asked the veterans, you know, Bates, he's pretty

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Speaker 1: inquisitive him. They're like, yeah, man, you know, he asked

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Speaker 1: good questions. It's not he doesn't just throw stuff out

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Speaker 1: there just to like, you know, do it to maybe

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Speaker 1: try to impressure. He's asking good, good questions, so we

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Speaker 1: know that he's understanding the big picture. And so that

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Speaker 1: that was an encouraging sign. And then the guy's a playmaker.

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Speaker 1: You know, they were they were wanting to get that

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Speaker 1: injection of that type of player at the state position.

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Speaker 1: They've gotten it, and it's rubbed off a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And Sean Williams, both those guys three interceptions a piece,

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Speaker 1: you know, amongst the league leaders, and Jesse took one

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Speaker 1: back for score. That's one of the four defensive touchdowns.

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Speaker 1: So they've had their issues defensively, no doubt, but he's

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Speaker 1: definitely been a bright spot. Lap This Sunday, the Bengals

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Speaker 1: host in New Orleans Saints, who lost their opener forty

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Speaker 1: eight to forty to Tampa Bay and have not lost since.

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Speaker 1: And the guy leading the way as their thirty nine

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Speaker 1: year old quarterback, Drew Brees eighteen touchdown passes, one interception,

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Speaker 1: the best passer rating in the NFL at one twenty

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Speaker 1: point six, and the interesting thing Dan also on third

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Speaker 1: down in the fourth quarter, the two money spots for

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Speaker 1: a quarterback. He's got a rating of one twenty and

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Speaker 1: both of those instances think he's second in the NFL

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Speaker 1: and one categorian like third or fourth and the other.

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Speaker 1: So he is big time. And the thing about he's

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Speaker 1: a unicorn, you know, a six foot quarterback in today's NFL,

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Speaker 1: where the prototype is the six foot five in strapping

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Speaker 1: lad with the big strong cannon arm. You know, Mahomes

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Speaker 1: is six three, two hundred and thirty plus pounds. Drew

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Speaker 1: Brees is a peanut compared to that guy. But he

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Speaker 1: throws with such anticipation and accuracy, and he knows his offense,

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Speaker 1: I mean inside out. And I remember here recently, you know,

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Speaker 1: reading reading something about how even when he has a

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Speaker 1: bye week or in the early stage as a training camp,

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Speaker 1: he'll go out and go through all of his reads

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Speaker 1: and all of his movements against air, just to get

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Speaker 1: his entire workout in. And people are like, you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: why don't you go home? We have a week off,

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Speaker 1: And that's just he gets in that mode. Nobody out

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Speaker 1: works Drew Brees, and that's he's a great example of

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Speaker 1: there are no shortcuts, and you know, hard work pays off,

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Speaker 1: and for him to do what he's done, and this

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Speaker 1: stat is interesting one of the week for me. You know,

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Speaker 1: I saw it a while back where he's thrown for

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Speaker 1: forty three hundred yards in war twelve straight seasons. John

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Speaker 1: Elway never did it once in Elway's sixteen year career

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Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame. Breeze a model of consistency.

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Speaker 1: Forty three hundred plus yards twelve straight years after ripping

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Speaker 1: up a labor. I mean, you know, he first pick

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Speaker 1: in the second round to the Chargers. They went LT

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Speaker 1: and Drew Brees. LT's in the Hall of Fame. Drew

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Speaker 1: Brees is gonna be I mean, Chargers had a hell

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Speaker 1: of a draft. Unfortunately for Breezy, rips his labor them

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Speaker 1: up and it was Miami or New Orleans. Saban was

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Speaker 1: the head coach at Miami. Decided to go to New Orleans.

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Speaker 1: A Saban gun him. He would have won a bunch

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Speaker 1: of Super Bowls in Miami and not even gone to

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Speaker 1: the college ranks, went all the national championships. He would

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Speaker 1: have been right down in Miami winning them all. Like

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Speaker 1: Don Shula. Did we know how good The Saints offense

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Speaker 1: is number two in the NFL and scoring at about

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Speaker 1: thirty five points a game. One point below Kansas City.

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Speaker 1: But what about the Saints defense. Well, they've they've got

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Speaker 1: some players. I mean, Cameron Jordan is a good defensive end,

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Speaker 1: a consistent pass rush or a multiple Pro Bowl guy.

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Speaker 1: On the back end, they have Lattimore, you know, a

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Speaker 1: shutdown corner player. But they've had their issues. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're they're towards the bottom of the standings in a

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Speaker 1: lot of categories, and an area that they struggle in

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Speaker 1: is red zone defense. They're they're giving up a lot

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Speaker 1: of touchdowns. They're touchdown percentages well into the sixty percent,

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Speaker 1: about twenty seventh in the league as I recall. So

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Speaker 1: they're struggling there and I think that's going to be

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Speaker 1: a big key in this football game. The Bengals and

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Speaker 1: number one in the NFL and red zone touchdown percentage,

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Speaker 1: the Saints are right up there, third or fourth themselves.

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Speaker 1: Both defenses are struggling in that area. So who's going

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Speaker 1: to get seven? Who's going to be held to three?

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Speaker 1: I think the defense that rises up in the condensed

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Speaker 1: field and holds it to field goal opportunities. And if

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Speaker 1: that can happen more than once, you know, all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, you're trading in seven for three and you're

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Speaker 1: down to score. You know, it's fourteen to six. So

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Speaker 1: I think that's going to be a big, big factor

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Speaker 1: who plays the best red zone defense because I think

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Speaker 1: both offenses are probably going to be able to move

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Speaker 1: the football between the twenties and then who's going to

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Speaker 1: batten down the hatches. And the thing about you know,

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Speaker 1: Drew Brees, we've talked about earlier. He's got one interception

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Speaker 1: and they didn't return it for any yards, so he

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Speaker 1: hasn't heard his football team a lick. You know, They've

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Speaker 1: they've fumbled it a little bit. They've put it on

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Speaker 1: the ground eleven times, they've lost seven of them. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, Drew Brees will not turn the football over.

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Speaker 1: So Andy's gonna have to be good in that area.

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Speaker 1: And the Bengals have only lost one fumbled themselves all year,

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Speaker 1: so they're tied for first in that category. So it

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Speaker 1: is going to be a football game decided by who

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Speaker 1: takes care of the football and who scores in the

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Speaker 1: red zone because I think both defenses have had their

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Speaker 1: issues in terms of given up yards and that could continue.

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Speaker 1: When people discuss the NFL's best head coach is Bill

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Speaker 1: Belichick obviously tops the list. You're probably going to hear

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Speaker 1: the name Andy Reid, maybe the young gun Sean McVeigh

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Speaker 1: the Rams. Seems to me Sean Payton doesn't generally get

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Speaker 1: that kind of acclamation. How high should he be on

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Speaker 1: the list? I think pretty high. And the reason I'm

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Speaker 1: based out on a lot of things, but one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest things is Mike Zimmer's respect for him. And

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Speaker 1: I respect the hell out of Zimmer as a defensive

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Speaker 1: coach and as a coach in general. I think he

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Speaker 1: knows good coaches and he has nothing but high praise

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Speaker 1: for Sean Payton. You know, they worked together with Bill

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Speaker 1: Parcels down in Dallas, and and Sean Payton is from

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Speaker 1: that Bill Parcels coaching tree as his Zimmer And I

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Speaker 1: think that I met Sean Payton the first time I

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Speaker 1: met him was at Miami of Ohio. He was on

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Speaker 1: the coaching staff when my son was playing football up there.

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Speaker 1: And every time I see Sean Payton, I my son Dave.

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Speaker 1: We were at a Super Bowl together and we're walking

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Speaker 1: around at media day and there Sean Payton. He comes

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Speaker 1: up and says, hello, my son almost dropped his teeth

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Speaker 1: you know that Sean Payton would remember him and you know,

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Speaker 1: come up out of a crowd and say hello to

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Speaker 1: us and everything, and uh so that told me a

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Speaker 1: lot about Sean Payton. The mind that he has to

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Speaker 1: have that kind of memory, I think is pretty pretty

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Speaker 1: extraordinary in the people's skill stuff, but I think he

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Speaker 1: is an unbelievably skilled coach in terms of not only

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Speaker 1: handling and leading men, but in terms like Andy Reid type,

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Speaker 1: his ematic. You know, the way he window dresses things,

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Speaker 1: the way he puts guys in different parts of the formation,

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Speaker 1: and what he's doing with Taysom Hill is amazing. This

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Speaker 1: quarterback from Byu who's like two hundred and twenty five

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Speaker 1: pounds and he's using them in the wildcat. He's using

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Speaker 1: the special teams. You know, he always has a little

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Speaker 1: gimmick and gadget. The thing that I remember him for

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Speaker 1: to is the onside kicking the Super Bowl. Gutsie come

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Speaker 1: out to start the second half, try to get the

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Speaker 1: possession of the football and it worked. I mean, you'd

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Speaker 1: roll the dice man you can get killed forever or

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Speaker 1: as if it works out, your riverboat gambler and successful

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Speaker 1: one to boot for the rest of your life. So

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Speaker 1: he hit the guts to do that in the biggest stage,

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Speaker 1: the biggest game of his life. And I think Dan,

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Speaker 1: it's like Brady and Belichick. You know, in this league

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Speaker 1: in this era, head coach, quarterback or a king. Now

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Speaker 1: you have Andy Reid and you have Mahomes. Everybody's buzzing

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Speaker 1: about that. How about Drew Brees and Sean Payton. I

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Speaker 1: mean that dynamic duo was about as good as there's

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Speaker 1: been in the league for a long long time in

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Speaker 1: terms of, you know, offensive mindset, productivity, everything that goes

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Speaker 1: along with it. Those two are attached to hip and

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Speaker 1: he's I think he's special. I think he's a heck

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Speaker 1: of a coach. Last thing, since these two teams are

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Speaker 1: in opposite conferences, they don't play each other very often.

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Speaker 1: Every four years, the Bengals take on the Saints. Back

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Speaker 1: in your playing days, you faced New Orleans three times,

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Speaker 1: including a game second week of the nineteen seventy five

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Speaker 1: season that was the first regular season game ever played

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Speaker 1: in the Superdome. What do you remember. I remember we

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Speaker 1: shut him out. It was twenty one nothing and I

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Speaker 1: was playing against a guy named Bob Pollard to war

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Speaker 1: number eighty two. I'd never played against the defensive lineman

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Speaker 1: that war number in the eighties before, and I remember

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Speaker 1: looking at him on looking at it on the celluloyd

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Speaker 1: the sixteen millimeter film back in the day, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: what did this guy move from tight end to a

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Speaker 1: defensive tackle and six three, two hundred and fifty ish

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Speaker 1: type guy. So he was a different type of you know,

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Speaker 1: more linear type defensive tackle as opposed to Joe Green,

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Speaker 1: Walter Johnson, guys that I had been playing, you know,

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Speaker 1: twice a year Pittsburgh and Cleveland, those type of big behemus.

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Speaker 1: He was. He was a different kind of guy, um,

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Speaker 1: and I thought I matched up well against him because

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Speaker 1: he was he was more of a basketball type guy,

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Speaker 1: and I played basketball as well, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: his moves were predicated on that type of thing. So

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Speaker 1: I really felt like I was out on a basketball

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Speaker 1: court boxing this guy out, you know, but I was

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Speaker 1: looking at him instead of doing it from you know,

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Speaker 1: with my with my dairy air, you know, not being

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Speaker 1: able to see him, just feeling that would now I

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Speaker 1: could see him and move with him, and I felt

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Speaker 1: like I could move decently and had had a pretty

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Speaker 1: good game against him. And the other thing I remember is, uh,

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Speaker 1: one of my all time favorite people, Archie Manning got

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Speaker 1: a beating. He took up pounding that day. The defense

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Speaker 1: shut the Saints out, Archie got you know, yanked, and

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Speaker 1: Kenny Anderson, you know, it was magnificent with his three

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Speaker 1: touchdown passes. So Kenny out played Archie. But two of

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Speaker 1: the not only great quarterbacks of the era, but two

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Speaker 1: of the best people you're ever gonna want to meet,

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Speaker 1: Archie Manning and Kenny Anderson squaring off and uh. And

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Speaker 1: that I do remember though, walking out and looking up

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Speaker 1: because you know, you play in the Astrodome. That's one

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Speaker 1: thing put the Superdome. You could have put the Astrodome

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Speaker 1: in the Superdome multiple times. The vastness of it. I

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Speaker 1: remember looking up, It's like a mouth of gape, you know,

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Speaker 1: like what the heck? And when we drove up to it,

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Speaker 1: I thought, this looks like a like an outer space

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Speaker 1: thing came and landed in New Orleans, right in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the you know, of the French Quarter. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was so different looking on the exterior, the architectural

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Speaker 1: design of it and everything was strikingly different. It was

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Speaker 1: definitely a you know, a trend setter. If the if

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Speaker 1: the the Astrodome is the eighth wonder of the world,

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Speaker 1: this had to be higher than that because it was.

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Speaker 1: It was an amazing place, the home to seven Super

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Speaker 1: Bowls and five Final Fours. To me, still the best

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Speaker 1: place for a big time sporting event. Fans can congregate

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Speaker 1: and on Bourbon Street hang out in New Orleans. They

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Speaker 1: kind of live and let live, vibe and then get

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Speaker 1: together for the big game, whether it's football or basketball

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Speaker 1: under the Superdome. A couple of Hurricanes, a couple of Beignets.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a good living, there's no question

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Speaker 1: about it. And there's not a bad seat in the place,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure. And there's a lot of them. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of seats. Yeah, New Orleans. That's a tough

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Speaker 1: place to beat in terms of an event like that

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Speaker 1: party plus the actual event itself at doug Will Hunt

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Speaker 1: down there in the South. Thanks Lap. Time to hear

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Speaker 1: from our first guest. If you love the NFL chess

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Speaker 1: match between teams and coaches, you should watch Greg co

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Speaker 1: Sell every weekend on the NFL Matchup Show. It's on

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Speaker 1: Saturday mornings on ESPN. Two or Sunday mornings on ESPN,

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Speaker 1: or you can do what I do and DVR it

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Speaker 1: every week. Greg joined Dave Lapham and me on the

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Speaker 1: Bengals PEP Rally Show and we started our conversation by

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Speaker 1: discussing the Bengals defense, currently last in the NFL and

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Speaker 1: yards allowed. After studying the tape, I asked Greg what

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Speaker 1: deficiencies stand out. I would say their linebacker position has

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Speaker 1: been a problem this year, and again I don't know when.

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Speaker 1: When does Nick Vigil do back or is he shortly

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Speaker 1: if not right after the buy, hopefully no more than

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Speaker 1: a week later they I agree with you, sir, he

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Speaker 1: is the missing piece. He's the guy that can play

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Speaker 1: nickel linebacker run with those tight ends and running backs.

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Speaker 1: I agree, he's the only linebacker they have that can cover,

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Speaker 1: and that's a problem today's NFL if you don't have

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Speaker 1: a linebacker that can cover, because every team has to

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Speaker 1: play man to man at some point. Now they're not

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Speaker 1: a predominant man to man defense, but still every game

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Speaker 1: presents situations where you have to match up, and they

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Speaker 1: really can't match up well with tight ends or backs

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Speaker 1: without Nick Vigil. I agree, you look at it it's

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Speaker 1: you have a pro Pro Bowl pass rusher tackle, Pro

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Speaker 1: Bowl pass rusher at end and they've got seven and

428
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 1: six sacks. You have number one cornerbacks as cover guys.

429
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,400
Speaker 1: Now one of them is injured. Slot corner dark questionnaire.

430
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: That's hurt him as well. Yep. But with those components,

431
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 1: a couple of Pro Bowl pass rushers, number one picks

432
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: in the back end, that's the beginnings of a pretty

433
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 1: good defense in today's NFL. Man in that in that

434
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:11,239
Speaker 1: intermediate area getting crushed, right, Yeah, that that's been a problem. Um.

435
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Dave that you say that about

436
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 1: their corners, because it's a tough question for And you know,

437
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: I've been around a long time and I don't I

438
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 1: don't rip coaches ever, because they know their players better

439
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: than I do. I just think about things and you know,

440
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,120
Speaker 1: try to extrapolate from what I see on tape. But

441
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: you know, with the corners that they do have on

442
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 1: the perimeter, and when de Nart is healthy, you would

443
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 1: think that this team could play more man to man

444
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 1: coverage and be comfortable. Obviously, they have a new coordinator

445
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 1: this year, and it always takes a while for a

446
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 1: new coordinator on either side to sort of feel through

447
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,400
Speaker 1: their talent to best deploy them and utilize them. But

448
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 1: the issue you face, of course, is if you can't

449
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: match up to tight ends in this league, it's very

450
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 1: difficult to play a steady diet of man coverage age.

451
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: Agree you look at it, they've gotten by or not

452
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: by the thing they've done well. Takeaways. They have ten interceptions,

453
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 1: you know, and they've got four defensive touchdowns. They have

454
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 1: thirteen takeaways, ten picks, you know, amongst the top five

455
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: in the league. That both of their safeties have three

456
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: interceptions amongst the league leaders, but no interceptions at the

457
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: cornerback position. Those guys that we're talking about. Do you

458
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 1: think it's because of the soft coverage and not challenging

459
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: people a little bit more? Well, first of all, I

460
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,640
Speaker 1: think that because of who they just played and how

461
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 1: that game played out, that the numbers, the pure statistics

462
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: are a little misleading. I'm not saying that you know

463
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: that the takeaways aren't a good number, but obviously they

464
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: had four interceptions in their last game and that you

465
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: know that helped. Obviously, you know, interceptions to me are

466
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: an odd thing. I've talked with a lot of coaches

467
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 1: over the years about it about you know, corners that

468
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 1: can play the ball very well. My guess is Drake Kirkpatrick,

469
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: who I think is a very solid NFL corner. I'm

470
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: not sure if he's great at the moment of truth,

471
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: if that's the strength of his game is playing you know,

472
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 1: is playing the ball with the hands to make interceptions.

473
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: Although he clearly is a very good NFL corner. I

474
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: think William Jackson can develop into a guy like that.

475
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: You know, he's a very gifted guy. He's long, he's athletic,

476
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,479
Speaker 1: he can run, you know, you know. To me, their

477
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: corner position is very, very solid. And again it comes

478
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: down to what Austin wants to do ultimately in terms

479
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: of how much man versus how much zone. But ultimately,

480
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: you know how it is, Dave. Defensive coordinators are always

481
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: going to do what they think is best not to

482
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: give up big explosive plays, and ultimately that's the way

483
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 1: they think. And if and if he feels that playing

484
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 1: more zone, which is clearly their their foundation, is the

485
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: best way not to give up big explosive plays, that's

486
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: what he's going to do. And an interestingly, they gave

487
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: up two massive ones in the last game a sixty

488
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: yard or in a seventy two yard or rookie corner,

489
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: Jesse Bates gets nosey and you know, William Jackson's playing

490
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: outside technique. Yeah, Jesse's supposed to be there and he's not,

491
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,479
Speaker 1: and he's Sean Williams, right, And then Sean Williams bites,

492
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: you know, on a sluggo and move the double move.

493
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: He bites and everyone's runs by him. So it's like, man,

494
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 1: you don't want to give up those one play drives,

495
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: you know, no, no, and they're a little stuck. I mean,

496
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: I think Sean Williams is a nice player, but he's

497
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: a certain kind of safety. And then everybody knows this. Again,

498
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: the tape tells you this. This is you know, I'm

499
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 1: not making a judgment here. The physical skill set and

500
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 1: the tape tell you this. He's essentially a line of

501
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: scrimmage safety or a box safety, whatever term people want

502
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: to use. So you're somewhat limited in what you can

503
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: do with your safeties. Clearly, Bates came out of Wake

504
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: Forest and he played deep safety there, so that's what

505
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: he is. But they don't really have interchangeable safeties, which

506
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: is what every team would ideally love to have great

507
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: co Sell is our guest. You can and should watch

508
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: him on weekends on the NFL Matchup show on ESPN.

509
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: Let's turn to offense for a moment. The Bengals started

510
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: the year with four tight ends, including a healthy Tyler Eiffort.

511
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: Only one of those four guys played last week, c

512
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 1: j Uzam, and he's dealing with shore shoulder. Yeah. How

513
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: much does it diminish the Bengals attack when they can't

514
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: use the two and three tight end packages that are

515
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: so prevalent now in the NFL. Well, if you speak

516
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: to any defensive coordinator, they'll tell you that one of

517
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: the main things they look at when they study offenses

518
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: are the personnel packages. And if you become a little

519
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: limited in personnel packages, the options in your offense become

520
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: a little limited. So I think it's it's really important.

521
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: Although I do love the name Mason Shrek, I mean,

522
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: you have to love that, but but you know, I think,

523
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: you know, I think it limits them to some degree.

524
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: I think Uzoma has played really well for them. I

525
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: mean I think he's probably been somewhat of a revelation

526
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: this year, and hopefully he can get back because when healthy,

527
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: he's actually I think been a pretty meaningful part of

528
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: their pass game. And they do detach them from the formation,

529
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: they still run with him those one by three sets

530
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: where the one is he's the single receiver to the boundary,

531
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: which obviously Tyler Eiffert could do as well as anybody

532
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: in the league, but he's he's been snake bid with

533
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: his injuries, so and Croft could do that as well.

534
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: He's a pretty athletic guy, so at least Uzoma gives

535
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: them that, but it does hurt what they can do

536
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: in terms of personnel variation and multiplicity. And you compound

537
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: the fact that Giovanni Bernard has been absence, you have

538
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: the Atlanta game, you know, and now here's a guy

539
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: that not only can run a pick, can catch, he

540
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: can work the middle of the field as running back

541
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: out of the backfield, and you know your tight ends

542
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: and Geo adds to it. It's it's a synergy. That's

543
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: that's a tough one to overcome, isn't it kind of limited? Well,

544
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: on the other issue too, you start to face this,

545
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: does Joe Mixon end up with too many snaps? And

546
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: I loved Joe Mixon coming out and I think he's

547
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: become a very very good player. But you know, ultimately

548
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: you get stuck because you want to win games. So

549
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: for instance, when they come back from the bye and

550
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: they play New Orleans and you think, hey, there's a

551
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: game we have to win at home to really show

552
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: that we're serious contenders, and you end up playing Joe

553
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: Mixon probably fifteen twenty more snaps than you want to

554
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: and that starts to add up over the season. How

555
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: big a fan are you of Frank Pollock job he

556
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: did down there in Dallas. I know he's a great

557
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: personnel to work with, but I always thought that his

558
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: techniques and the aggressive posture that that his lineman worked

559
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: with what I envied it. And I think he's done

560
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: a really good job up here at Bengals, aren't aren't

561
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: you know? Blessed with tremendous personnel. They in the offensive

562
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: line that is still work in progress there. Billy Price,

563
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, goes down early with an injury. How do

564
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: you think Trey Hopkins has played and how do you

565
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: think the offensive line has played as a whole, Well,

566
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, I think they've been very solid and Funny

567
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: you mentioned Hopkins, I remember watching him at Texas. I

568
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: believe he came from and I think he was a

569
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: guard there and so obviously they moved him to center,

570
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: and you know, I think he's held his own and

571
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: I think the old line has been pretty solid. I

572
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: think they've done a nice job too to help the

573
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: old line. I mean, I remember watching the tape earlier

574
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: this week, obviously that's fresh in my mind, and I

575
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: thought they did a real nice job with play calling

576
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: in the run game, Dave and he will really appreciate this,

577
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: because it just seemed to me that that Ampa kept

578
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: lining up in over fronts and they kept running weak

579
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: and they kept running to the bubble and they did

580
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,239
Speaker 1: a really good job with that and had excellent success. Um,

581
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, doing that with some runs by mixing and

582
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: you know, those kinds of things can really help your

583
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 1: O line too. That kind of play called. People don't

584
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: think about that in terms of fronts and those kinds

585
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: of things, but that can really that kind of play

586
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: call and can help your O line. You know, it's

587
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: interesting the RPOs you know that have infiltrated the national

588
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: football They had a few of those in this game.

589
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 1: I remember, yeah, no question and yeah, and it's like

590
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: people are, oh, man, the running game. You know, while

591
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: you got a quarterback who has an RPO and if

592
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: he feels like I might be able to get a

593
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: five yard run, but I'm going to take this thirteen

594
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: yard pass and he completes it, you can't really complain.

595
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: But in a lot of cases, the run pass balance

596
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: gets gets skewed, you know, because of all these RPOs.

597
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: Very rarely now is that there's a play a player

598
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: sent in and there's an RPO attachment to it, there's

599
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: a pass attachment to it. Very rarely now, it seems

600
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: to me that teams aren't just calling a run to play,

601
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: you know, to run the football. It's like everything's got

602
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: to pass attachment to it. Have you found it to

603
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: be that different in the NFL. Well, it's a great

604
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: point too, because sometimes the run pass balance can become

605
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: skewed and people aren't aware of why it's skewed. I mean,

606
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, the play I remember from this week, which

607
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: was great, was in the second quarter the boy twenty

608
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 1: six yard reception was a really well executed RPO. And

609
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: then you know they did a number of those, maybe

610
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: they did three or four in the game. I can't remember. Exactly,

611
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: but more and more teams are doing this, and if

612
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: you get the reaction you want, it's usually from a

613
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: second level defender. You're gonna throw the ball, and normally

614
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: you do get the reaction you want and teams end

615
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: up throwing it not handing it off. You know, when

616
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: I look at Kansas City, Andy Reid has got the

617
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: prototype offense. With the prototype you know, position players and

618
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: quarterback to execute it. He'll do the RPO and then

619
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: you run a screen at the end of it. It's

620
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna quarter I might hand the back, the

621
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: quarterback might run it. He might throw a slant to

622
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: the backside, he might throw screens of the strong side.

623
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: It's like, holy mackerel, you can defend every scranch. So

624
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: the football fields crazy. They're they're really difficult because they

625
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: are really well schemed in so many ways and they

626
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: have superior talent, so it's very difficult. You know, a

627
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: lot of people might say, Whoa'll match up, you know,

628
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: in this way, we'll take away some things schematically, but

629
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: then the matchups are so difficult because they have four

630
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: guys that are incredibly tough matchups in Kelsey Hill, Watkins

631
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: and Hunt. I mean, it's easy to say, well, match up,

632
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: but you have to have a pretty darn good man

633
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: to man defenders to feel comfortable doing that. When you

634
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: have Watkins, who is the fourth pick of the draft

635
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: as your fourth option, you got yourself an offense many

636
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean that you know it's and then look.

637
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: Taking nothing away from Patrick Mahomes, I mean, the guy

638
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: looks at guys a dynamic throwing talent, There's no question

639
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: about that. But when I watch this offense, I am

640
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: more fascinated by their scheming than just by the pure

641
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: throwing of Mahomes, which, as I said, is deaf only impressive.

642
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: I have a new goal in life. I want to

643
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: hang out at a bar with you two guys. I'm

644
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: just going to shut up and listen to you two

645
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: guys talk football. It's great stuff. I love talking with

646
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: coach co Sell the man. You know, I just love

647
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: talking football. I mean, I sit here and study this

648
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: all day long. It's nice to be able to talk

649
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: about it. That's Greg coo Sell, who is one of

650
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: my favorite guests, and in case you're wondering, is the

651
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: nephew of the legendary broadcaster Howard co Sell. So that's

652
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: what the tape tells us about the Bengals. Now time

653
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: for a data driven approach. Sam Monson is an analyst

654
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: for the website Pro Football Focus, where they grade every

655
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: player on every play, and as we said earlier in

656
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: the podcast, rookie safety Jesse Bates is currently the highest

657
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: graded Bengal at his position. Updating the numbers, Bates currently

658
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: ranks fifth among the ninety nine safeties who have seen

659
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: at least one hundred defensive snaps this season. Here's Sam

660
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: mon from PFF. Yeah, Jesse Bates has been fantastic this season.

661
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: He's been doing things that we didn't really see coming.

662
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: We didn't see this phenomenal year coming right off the bat.

663
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: He's been excellent. You know, safety's typically it's a lot

664
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: about the plays you don't give up more than it

665
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: is the plays you make. You know, on the back end,

666
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: it's the clue is in the position name. You know,

667
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: it's safety. You're the guy that's supposed to make sure

668
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: that at the very minimum, they don't score on the play.

669
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: You've stopped the bad plays from happening, and Bates has

670
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of that. He's obviously got the

671
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: three intersections there as well. He's got a pass break up.

672
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: The passer rating of opponents strowing into his coverage is

673
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: pretty absurd right now. It's twenty one, you know, by

674
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,959
Speaker 1: comparison to passer rating when Sean Williams has been targeted,

675
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: there's one hundred and seventeen. So he's really been fantastic

676
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: in coverage so far, and that's really helped that. Segondary, No,

677
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: it's interesting with Jesse, young guy rookie took him the

678
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: second round. Really liked them. Obviously, his ball skills and

679
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: his ability to read things. You know, centerfielder in baseball

680
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: run to a spot, the ball is going to be

681
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: there kind of thing, has those type of instincts. But

682
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: as every young player will do. In this last game,

683
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: for example, you had to pick six where Jamis Winston

684
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: never really even saw him, you know, and he Winston

685
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: locked in his receiver and Jesse Bates pick six. But

686
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: then he gave up the sixty yard touchdown pass to

687
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: Jackson receiver Jackson. Will Jackson's playing outside technique and Jesse's

688
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: supposed to be able to the top taking will Jackson away,

689
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: and he gives up a sixty yard touchdown pass. So

690
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: the young guy giveth the young guy take it the way.

691
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of what you expect out of

692
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: young safeties as they learn in the NFL. It is

693
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: and I guess the only mitigating circumstances behind that big

694
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: touchdown is that, you know, they change quarterbacks to that

695
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: point on Jameis Winston had just been throwing those steam

696
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: routes all day long, and then Ryan Fitzpatrick comes in

697
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: the game, and they showed them the same look. They

698
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: showed them that scene that they've been targeting all day,

699
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: and instead it was a different quarterback. He didn't take debate,

700
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: he didn't throw it there, and he went with the

701
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: double move over the top and based just bid on

702
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: the thing that he'd been seeing all day long from

703
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: from Jameis Winston. So yeah, I mean, it's a mental

704
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: er and it's a mistake that obviously he shouldn't have made.

705
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: But I think it was smart play by the Bucks

706
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: and by Ryan Fitzpatrick to kind of take advantage of

707
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: something that had been actually biting them all day up

708
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: until that point. Yeah, Jesse's you know, you're right though,

709
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: that's his responsibility is he just ran. All he did

710
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: was run a deep post. Jackson just took off a

711
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: ran a deep post. The double move was Mike Evans.

712
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: He ran the sluggo double move, and Sean Williams bid

713
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: on that and he ran by him for a seventy

714
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: two yard touchdown. So each safety got destroyed, you know,

715
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: on a deep ball, like you say, you can't as

716
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: a safety. You can't let the ball get behind, you

717
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: can't get over your head, and each of them were

718
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: guilty of that. But the good news is Jesse Bates,

719
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: you know, had to pick six to kind of negate

720
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: that and make a big play at the Defensively, those

721
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: four defensive touchdowns, you know, lead the NFL. Those those

722
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 1: big plays by the defense are a big factor in

723
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: mitigating some of the some of the other problems the

724
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: defenses haven't for sure. Yeah, And basically guy that was

725
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: grading really well for us in college. His TFF college

726
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: grades were excellent as well, So I guess it's a

727
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: little bit of a surprise to see him hit the

728
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: ground running so well. A lot of rookie safeties struggle imployment,

729
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: they hit the NFL, but he's really made the seamless transition.

730
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: Sam Hudson from Pro Football focuses our guest. You can

731
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: follow him on Twitter at p f F Underscore Sam.

732
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: Bengals linebackers are struggling and pass coverage Sam, How bad

733
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: is the data? Yeah? And that's it's not a new trend, right.

734
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: The Bengals linebackers have struggle for a while now. It's

735
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: been the issue on that defense. They've been able to

736
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: get impressive play from the guys up front. They've been

737
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: able to find players in the secondary that done well

738
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: over the years. It's that linebacker level where they've really

739
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: been struggling. And as you say, in particular, it's coverage.

740
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: This year, Nick vigil has got the best coverage grade

741
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: of the group. But outside of that, the other three

742
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: linebackers that have played significant snaps, Jordan Evans, Preston Brown

743
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: already Nickerson, all of those guys have given up at

744
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: least one touchdown so far. They're all giving up a

745
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: passer rating above eighty four. Nickerson in particular has given

746
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: up a pass rating one forty five, which is pretty horrendous.

747
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: They're struggling. Those guys are getting beaten. When they're getting beaten,

748
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: they're giving up significant yards. They're giving up significant yards

749
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: after the catch, So it's not even as if they're

750
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: able to just keep everything in front of them and

751
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: limit the damage that way. Those guys are all giving

752
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: up a significant amount of yards after the catch and

753
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 1: a significant amount per reception. So that linebacker level for

754
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: the Bengal continues to be a real problem in coverage.

755
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: Do you think that teams need to take another look

756
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: at how they how they construct their defense and that

757
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 1: the angles an example of in today's NFL, with teams

758
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 1: throwing the ball get pass rushers. They feel like they've

759
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: got one in Geno Atkins obviously, another one in Carlos

760
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: Dunlap six and seven sacks respectively. They have number one

761
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: draft picks at corner. On the back end, they have

762
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: dark ques Denar in the slot a number another number

763
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: one that's injured right now, but they haven't really addressed

764
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: at linebacker position. With very high draft picks and the

765
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: way tight ends are in today's NFL and backs out

766
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: of the backfield, I guess you maybe you have to

767
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: rethink how early you addressed linebacker in drafts. Yeah, I

768
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: think there's there's a bit of the league is in

769
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: flux right now in terms of I correctly a assigning

770
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: value to all these various different positions. You know, as

771
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: long as the league keeps trending evermore towards passing and

772
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: nothing else, it's shifted exactly how much he should value

773
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: certain positions. So you know, a two down run stuff

774
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: in linebacker used to be a valuable guy. He used

775
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: to be important in your defense. Now those guys are

776
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: entirely replaced, and they're really an afterthought with everything, and

777
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: even three down linebackers, they're becoming less valuable than other

778
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: positions and less you can find a guy that moves

779
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: the needle and can be a sort of matchup nightmare

780
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: on defense, the way some of these tight ends and

781
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: running backs can be on offset. So do you think

782
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: of guys like Luke Keikley or Dion Jones in Atlanta.

783
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: Those guys are so good that they're able to move

784
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: the needle in that direction. But if you're not that good,

785
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: if you're just a reasonable every down linebacker, it's important,

786
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: but it's not as important as a cornerback or even

787
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: a number two or a number three quarterback. It's not

788
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: as important as a pass rusher upfront, because the most

789
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: important things are obviously stopping the pass and being able

790
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: to pass yourself. And the components of stopping the pass are,

791
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: you know, the back end coverage against those number one

792
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: receivers and the pass rush up front, the client pressure quarterbacks.

793
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: Linebackers are definitely important parts of the coverage. They're you know,

794
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: they're they're going to be targeted significantly over the middle

795
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: against tight ends and all that kind of thing. It

796
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: just still takes a back seat to those other positions.

797
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: So I think teams are struggling at the moment with

798
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: this this kind of moving target of you know, how

799
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: much to go after these linebackers and where to find

800
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: a really good one. Do you think it will evolve

801
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: to like safeties that can play in the box, and

802
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: because teams like you canon with the Cardinals, he was

803
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: a hot ticket there for a while. Oh man, there's

804
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: a kid, you know that is tough enough to play

805
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: against the run, but he gives them a really good

806
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: option playing that weak side linebacker or that second backer

807
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: in their in their nickel package, and he can hold

808
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: up the run but gives them excellent coverage. I mean,

809
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: do you think they're they'll gravitate toward the larger safety

810
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: type guy that can hold up against the running game,

811
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: because then teams will just you know, bunch up and

812
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: run it down your throat if you can't. But do

813
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: you think that that's the way it might go in

814
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: an earlier sooner rather than later, I guess. I mean,

815
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: I think they already have. It's just that those guys

816
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: are termed linebackers all along that you know, you look

817
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: the guy like Roquan Smith, the Bear's first round draft pick.

818
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: He's six foot one, two hundred and thirty pounds. You

819
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 1: know that's a safety. If you go back ten years,

820
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: that guy's a strong safety. But now the way the

821
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: game has gone, people have gotten smaller, they've gotten faster,

822
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: and those guys are just brought up as linebackers all

823
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: the way along. Now there's no there's none of this

824
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: position switch that you would have happened when you know,

825
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: say Thomas Davis back when he came out two thousand

826
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 1: and four, I think he went from being a college

827
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: strong safety to being an NFL linebacker, and that's kind

828
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: of the same deal. I think there isn't a position switch,

829
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: but I think the league has already made that adjustment,

830
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: and I think they're still moving in that direction. It's

831
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: not that you know, the six foot one, two hundred

832
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: and thirty pound linebacker may not be the end. We

833
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: may get down to the idea of a two hundred

834
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: and ten pound linebacker until you know, until there is

835
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: that threat of the other end of the other shoe

836
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: dropping a thread of a team that just lows up

837
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: with a couple of fullback from pounds the ball down

838
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: your throat. Up until that point, you can still get

839
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: smaller and faster and it's not having a detrimental effect

840
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: if I give anything. The limiting factor on how small

841
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: your linebackers can get is whether they're going to be

842
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: able to match tight ends in the passing game, whether

843
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: they can get small enough and still cover a guy

844
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: that's six six and two hundred and fifty pounds, because

845
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: that's what these lines, that's what these tight ends look like.

846
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: So there's only smoke so small your linebackers can get

847
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: before they're just too small to cover those guys. All right,

848
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: thanks to Greg co Sell and Sam Monson. And that's

849
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: going to do it for this episode of the podcast.

850
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: If you haven't done so already, don't forget to subscribe

851
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: on iTunes, Stitcher, or pod Bean. And if you have

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Speaker 1: a minute. Please give it a rating or leave a comment.

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Speaker 1: Your feedback is appreciated, and five star ratings help more

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Speaker 1: Bengals fans find this podcast. I'm Dan Horde and thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to the Bengals Booth podcast