1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk that created some interesting sounding records or tunes, 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: let's say, recordings, but nobody would have guessed what I 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: was thinking of at the time. Yeah, yeah, it's just 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: I like this cross polonization. 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 2: I'm buzznight and welcome to the Taken a Walk Podcast. 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: Now you know that feeling when you hear a drum 7 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: fill so precise, so musically intelligent, that it makes you 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: stop whatever you're doing and just listen. 9 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 3: Let's call that the Simon Phillips effect. For over five decades, 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 3: from backing Toto through their biggest hits to session work 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 3: with everyone from The Hoo to Judas Priest, this British 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 3: drumming legend has left his mark on iconic recordings for 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 3: his entire career. 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: But here's what most people don't know. Behind those thunderous 15 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: grooves and jaw dropping chops is a restless creative spirit 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: who's never been content to rest on his laurels. He 17 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: keeps pushing into new sonic territory, lens jazz fusion roots 18 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 2: with contemporary production techniques in ways that would make drummers 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: half his age envious. And we'll talk to Simon Phillips 20 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 2: next on Taking a Walk. 21 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 4: Taking a walk. 22 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 2: The One and only Simon Phillips. Welcome to taking a walk. 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 5: Thank you, good to be here, good to be walking. 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: Yes, so we like because of the title of the podcast, 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: posing this opening question, sir, if you had the opportunity 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: to take a walk with somebody living or dead, who 27 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: would that person be and where would you take that 28 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: walk with them? 29 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 5: Ooh, interesting, interesting question. 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: Well, it would have to be somebody that's very fit, 31 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: because where I live we have lots of trails, hiking trails, 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: and in fact, I have one that starts literally outside 33 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: of outside my game, and I've never done it. You 34 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: can actually walk up to the top of the mountains, 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: the Topatopa Mountains, which is sixty four hundred feet. I've 36 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: been up to about three thousand feet and so that's 37 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: an hour and a bit. So it's a tough walk 38 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: because it's all uphill. So I'd have to take into 39 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: consideration somebody that could really do that. That's interesting. I 40 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: still think probably one of the most interesting people in 41 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: rock and roll still today's Pete Townsend, I think. And 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: he's fit too, so I always have a wonderful talk 43 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: with him whenever we speak. And yeah, I think he 44 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: would be the most interesting person in terms of just 45 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: a vast, wide range of interests and knowledge, And yeah, 46 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: I think that that would be pretty amazing. But there's 47 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people to choose from also, you know. 48 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 2: Oh, I'd love to be a fly on the wall 49 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 2: for all of them, but certainly with with Pete as well. 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: You had some spectacular history with with he and the band, didn't. 51 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 5: You, Yes, absolutely, yes, yeah, yeah. 52 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: What do you most fondly recall from those times? 53 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: Well, the music, obviously, his writing is just spectacular, and 54 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: I always say to him, uh, these songs play themselves, 55 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: which I'm not sure he takes as a compliment or not, 56 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: but I mean it as a compliment because I love 57 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: it when a song, you sit down, you hear the tune, 58 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: and then you think, you put headphones on and you 59 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: you know how, you count in, or you listen to 60 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: to a click intro or whatever it is, and it 61 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: just seems to sit well, Everything sits well, all the 62 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: transitions work, everything is is wonderful. Now. Always love that, 63 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: But I think it's our talks outside of music that 64 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: I really find fascinating. And I can pick various times 65 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: during the times that we've worked together especially when I've 66 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: worked with him in a producing sense too. 67 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 5: We did a project called. 68 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: The Iron Man, and I was when it was eighty seven, 69 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, and so I had some very intimate 70 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: conversations during that because it was just us two in 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: the control room, you know. So those I think those 72 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: are what I remember most, you know, and of course 73 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: just some of the funny, funny things that he says 74 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: and happened. 75 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 5: And yeah, it's great, Yeah, that's awesome. 76 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: Well, we got a lot to catch up on. We've 77 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: got the Supergroup Darwin and that release which I want 78 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: to talk about. But the fascinating thing about you, among 79 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: many things, is you're constantly, in my view, in a 80 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: state of invention and rein mention. What do you suppose 81 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:09,239 Speaker 2: is the driving influence to such curiosity and great creative superpowers. 82 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 5: I think it's more to do with learning. 83 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: I love to always be in a learning situation, and 84 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: also now running my own band and even producing records 85 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: and engineering them and mixing them. I'm always learning, I 86 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: think that's what it is, and always curious to figure 87 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: out maybe different ways of doing things from a compositional 88 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: point of view. I have no idea where that comes from. 89 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: And when working with Darwin on these tunes, it'll start 90 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: out with a basic skeleton of the tune, and I might, 91 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: I guess, I go into what it would be termed 92 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: more of an arranging situation, where I would rearrange the 93 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: song and then work with it to make it cohesive. 94 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: And then the question is what to do next. And 95 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: the thing is about the type of music we play, 96 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: which let's say is prog rock, you know, for one 97 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: of a better term. You don't have to stick to 98 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: a three minute thirty format, so we can go off 99 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: and do all these wonderful little adventures musically which used 100 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: to happen in the early seventies. Yes, for a prime example, 101 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: they would have little they were little concertos, you know, 102 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: they were wonderful. I don't know where it comes from. 103 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: It just goes, hmm, how about this? And then I 104 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: develop it and then I go hmm, I wonder if 105 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: Darwin's going to like this because I just made a 106 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: left turn, and then I arrange it so that then 107 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: it comes back to the tune and it all makes sense. 108 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: I send him a demo which is all many instruments. 109 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: I use keyboards which are here on the left because 110 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: I don't play guitar. I wish I did, because it's 111 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: very hard to to replicate guitar driven music with a keyboard. 112 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: It's they're two different animals. It's it's quite amazing, both 113 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: harmonically and sonically too. 114 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 5: But I do my best to recreate. 115 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: I call it my yan hammer guitar sound, you know, 116 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: and use of course all the wonderful virtual plugins we 117 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: have nowadays, you know, acoustic guitars, twelve strings. And then 118 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: I send it. I send him the demo, and he 119 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: most of the time goes back, oh wow, oh, never 120 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: would have thought of that? Great, you know, and then 121 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: he might come back with some more suggestions and that 122 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: that's kind of how they all come together. 123 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 5: Really. 124 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: Now you're speaking specifically about Greg Howe. 125 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: Not at that point, No, No, we're we're still working 126 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: on the composition of the actual position itself. I know 127 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: that in the palette that I have to work with, 128 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: I've got Greg who will do cover all the lead playing. 129 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: I've got Jesse Siebenberg who will cover all acoustic playing 130 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: and a lot of the clean guitars. And I've got 131 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: Darwin who will cover all the heavy guitars. That's his 132 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: main thing. But what's really cool is Darwin's use of 133 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: unconventional tunings. Every song has some different tuning, even if 134 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: it's just a drop a dropy, you know, like an 135 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: E flat, even if it's a B. He will take 136 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: that lower string and tune it down, which then changes 137 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: all his shapes and changes the tone, changes the sound 138 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: of the guitar, and introduce different voicings. 139 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 5: Plus I have we. 140 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: Have Derek Sheri in in who plays certain parts, and 141 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: we also have J three Julian Pollock who's amazing and 142 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: he covers other parts keyboard wise, and occasionally I also 143 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: throw in a few keyboard things where, especially when I'm mixing, 144 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: because once I'm in mixing mode, it's like it's like cooking, 145 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: it really is. 146 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 5: You're putting everything together. 147 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 1: And often I'll get there and I've got everybody in, 148 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: I've got all their parts, and yet hmmm, something's missing. 149 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: And that's when I, you know, connect all the gear 150 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: up and come up with something. Whatever it is, it's 151 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: usually some sort of keyboard, just something to bolster something 152 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: that's probably already there, but it needs to be a 153 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: different sound. 154 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 5: Stuff like that. 155 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: At those moments of experimentation, is that one of the 156 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: happiest moments in life for you. 157 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: Oh when it works, yes, but only when it works. 158 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: It can be disaster sometimes I think that. Then then 159 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, when you've got a 160 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 1: mix and it's sounding I call it, oh, this sounds 161 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: like a record. Now you know, uh, the mix will 162 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: sound not like a record for a very long time. 163 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: Perhaps it really depends and you're still kind of Okay, 164 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: that needs a little bit more of this, or maybe 165 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: I can change the the perspective of of everything. But 166 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: once you get that, then it's like, ah, okay, then 167 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: I'll print it and then i'll send it to Darwin 168 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: and then he'll listen to it and he'll give me 169 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: his version of it. And sometimes it's not there yet 170 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: and I'm going, hm, okay, what is it? I'm thinking, 171 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: I think it's sounding pretty damn good. So what am 172 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: I missing? That's the that that's the essence then and 173 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: again it's a it's a learning curve, is what I 174 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: really want to hear more of this? And I said, well, 175 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot of that, but okay, why what is 176 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: it that's not knocking him out about it? What am 177 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: I missing? So and then you have to kind of 178 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: you have to try to change your ears. Okay, I'll 179 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: put that set out away, and now let's have that 180 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: set and plug them in and figure out what it is. 181 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 5: And it might take a little while. 182 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: It might take also getting away from it and moving 183 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: on to a different song, which is I do that 184 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: quite a lot, actually, and we're very lucky these days 185 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: to be in the digital world. We can do that 186 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: in a matter of minutes, and in the olden days, 187 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: in the analog world, you. 188 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 5: Couldn't do that. 189 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: You really had to get the mix while it was up, 190 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: because well, you've got degradation of tape. That's one of 191 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: the first things. But it's also recalling all your sounds, 192 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: and I mean it's a nightmare. A big mix recall 193 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: could take all day the way we used to do 194 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: it on an SSL, because it's not just the console, 195 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: it's all your outboard equipment. You have to write copious 196 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: notes and then you compare to the sound or the 197 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: mix that you last had and you go, well that's 198 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: not quite the same, is it? You know so, And 199 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: I'm very old school in that fashion, even though I 200 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: still use quite a bit of out ball gear and 201 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: it's very important to make copious notes about all the 202 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: settings on each piece of equipment and how it was patched, 203 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: and then you go flip backwards and forwards between the 204 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: original mix and your your recall as it were, and 205 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: they go, oh, okay, that's sounding pretty pretty good. Then 206 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: you can work with it. So we're very lucky. Now 207 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: it's just a push of a button, you know, selector 208 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: something on your drive, double click it, it opens up 209 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: in pro tools and you're almost there. 210 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 5: So it wasn't like that in the old days. 211 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 2: I have a feeling with your time with your commercial 212 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: studio that you had that that really obviously made a 213 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 2: tremendous impact, and then sort of freeing yourself from the 214 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: commercial studio and then moving your studio back to the 215 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: home has given you Maybe is it fear to say 216 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: this added sense of creative flair? 217 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 5: I know, I don't think so. 218 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: I think all the scenarios that I've worked in, you 219 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: just you have to make it work. 220 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 5: I was primarily taught by Mike Oldfield. 221 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: He was the guy that helped me become an engineer, 222 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: and it was purely because he is a very good 223 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: engineer himself. But he was done with it. He wanted 224 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: to have someone else do it. But the problem was 225 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: finding a musician that could work with him as an engineer, 226 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: because he gets tired of having to explain, you know, 227 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: if something's a little more complex. 228 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 5: Not all engineers would be able to do that. 229 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: A lot can, of course, because they are musicians themselves, 230 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: but in this case, no. He sent the engineer home 231 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: that we were using and plump the nave manual on 232 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: my lap of an eighty one O eight console, which 233 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: is around nineteen eighty got that came out in about 234 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: eighty eighty one, I think, and that was it and 235 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: then he left, I'll be back in three hours. 236 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 5: I loved that story. Oh yeah, I mean it was 237 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 5: It was amazing. But here's the thing. 238 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: It's something that I always wanted to do since I 239 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: was actually very young and used to mess around with 240 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: my mum used to have two tape recorders to revoks 241 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: G thirty six is that's right, tube revoxes, and I 242 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: used to bounce from one to the other. I was 243 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: recording stereo drums when I was literally, I mean I 244 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: don't know how old, I was maybe twelve or something 245 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: in the in the living room and then but I 246 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: was also carded around a lot of the London studio, 247 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: especially the BBC by my dad to watch sessions. 248 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 5: So I kind of grew up in the. 249 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: Studio, but I would have loved to have had one 250 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: even when I was very young. So I did understand 251 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: the basic signal path of what happens. It was just 252 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: a question. In those days you couldn't. It was very 253 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: hard to go from one side of the last to 254 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: the other. And when you were in the control room 255 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: you just let the kind of stand or sit if 256 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: there was a place to sit, and listen to the playback, 257 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: and then leave, you know, go go back out to 258 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: the studio. It was very strict in those days. But 259 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: I was always watching over the engineer's shoulders, and if 260 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: I particularly liked the sound that he was getting on 261 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: the drum kit, i'd look and go what is he doing? 262 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 5: You know? 263 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: And nine times out of ten, the great engineers are 264 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: really not doing that much. That's the amazing thing. Working 265 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: with Elliott Shiner, Bob Clear Mountain, Oh, I mean great 266 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: English engineers, to John Punter. It's hard to remember. Sometimes 267 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: Greg Walsh, that was it. They weren't doing that much. 268 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: Nico Bolas, you know, how do you do that? And 269 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: it still fascinates me that how and it's really odd 270 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: to do with it is it's to do with, obviously 271 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: the ability, and you've learned how to do it from 272 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: the engineers you were working under in big studios, you know. 273 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: But taking that Ken Scott another one, you know, Dennis McKay, 274 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: and I watched them so closely. I used to get 275 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: to sessions early to obviously set up the kit, but 276 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: watch the maintenance engineer align the tape machine. I wanted 277 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: to understand what is he doing? 278 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 5: You know? 279 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: Why every time do I turn up an air I 280 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: hear a one killer hurts tone, you know, and what 281 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: is he doing. I used to sit there with a 282 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: cup of coffee and watch and he's there aligning, you know, 283 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: pulling all the meters like this. And I said, I 284 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: want to be able to do that, and the only 285 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: way to do that was to get my studio, and 286 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: I learned how to do it, and then I started 287 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: experimenting with alignments, and which we all did in the eighties, 288 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, especially when it wasn't very corporate, when the 289 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: studio wasn't run in a very corporate manner like EMI 290 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: or a studios or I would imagine capital in those days, 291 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: the more individual like private studios like Ramport, which was 292 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: Pete Townsend's and all these other studios that opened up 293 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: with the younger engineers who are like, Okay, we've got 294 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: these new Ottari MTR nineties, let's mess around with them 295 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: a little bit. Let's you know, let's put some more 296 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: level onto tape. And it's all. It's stuff I loved, 297 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: always loved the technical side of it. 298 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 4: We'll be right back with more of the Taking a 299 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 4: Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast. 300 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 2: Who were the whether they be drummers or other musicians, 301 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: who were you know, at a young age when you 302 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: were observing everything those players that really influenced you to 303 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: this day. 304 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: I think it has to start with my age. I 305 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: grew up at a very musical household. My dad was 306 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: a He had a dixie and dance band, so I 307 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: listened to a lot of his. 308 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 5: Music, but at the same terms of the dramas well. 309 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: Obviously it was Buddy Rich, Louis Belson to a certain extent, 310 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: Geene Crooper. I think it was more because the music 311 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: I heard Gene play was a little more old fashioned. 312 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 1: It was more thirties forties Benny gouman Quarte. You know, 313 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: I preferred the sound of a bigger band, big loud 314 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: trumpets and more modern playing, which Buddy had still. 315 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 5: I mean, you know, he was. 316 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: Playing in the thirties, so but he transformed a big 317 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: band drumming along with all the other amazing dramas. But 318 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: also I started getting into rock and roll too, and 319 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: I was more influenced by rock groups that had brass 320 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: sections because I grew up with brass players, so that 321 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: was a sound that I was so used to. I 322 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: wasn't quite ready for the sound of just guitar based 323 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: and drums when an organ. We didn't have many synthesizers 324 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: back then. We didn't have a friend of Rhodes, for example, 325 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: until you know, a bit later. 326 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 5: So bands. 327 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: I think Chicago Transit Authority was the first rock and 328 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: roll record I really got into. And also my first 329 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,239 Speaker 1: guitar hero, Terry cath I was more. He was more 330 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: my hero than Jimmy Hendrix was. Is that funny? And 331 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: actually I learned later that Jimmy loved Terry, loved the 332 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: band and wanted to produce their next record. Fortunately he 333 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: didn't make it, so it's still to this day, I 334 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: put on some old Chicago cuts from Chicago five and 335 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: one called Danny Saraffin, In my opinion, one of the 336 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: most musical dramas out there is all. 337 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 5: The way he played those tracks was so inventive, beautiful. 338 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 5: I learned a lot from Danny, and I've told him. 339 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember doing I was aligning a system 340 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: up to do a surround mix. And one of the 341 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: best things you can do. Once you've done all the 342 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: technical stuff with pink noise and a meter, it's like, 343 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: listen to music on it. How does it sound? Does 344 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: it sound Okay? That's so important. So I get my 345 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: little collection of DTS and Dolby surround stuff and play it. 346 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: And I think there was a I had a surround 347 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: of Chicago five, Yeah, and it just I was like, 348 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: oh wow. I actually called him. I said, Danny, I'm 349 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: listening to Chicago five in around right now and you're 350 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: playing is awesome. It's fantastic, you know. So it's great 351 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: to be able to do that. That's lovely to be 352 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: able to, you know, say to somebody straight to them, 353 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: you know, you played amazingly on this record. 354 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 5: It's great. 355 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: Oh, that's wonderful. Sharing that, and I'm so glad to 356 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: hear you talk about Chicago in that way, because, certainly 357 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: for their great career, I think, for the meticulous nature 358 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: of the way that band put it all together and 359 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 2: the beautiful nature, it's often underappreciated, you know, I believe, 360 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 2: you know. 361 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was very lucky. We actually got to work 362 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: with Jim Panco on a total record, and I. 363 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 5: Was engineering that record. 364 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: It was the last one I did with them, falling 365 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: in between, and we had this one track which had 366 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: this outro which was we co composed pretty much everything 367 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: on that. I think that was kind of my riff 368 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: at the end. Came up with this kind of weird 369 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: thing and sane, but everybody seemed to like it, which 370 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: was great. And I think Page, David Page said let's 371 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: get let's get Jim on this and he could do 372 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: a real Chicago type arrangement. So I finally got to 373 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: meet and work with him and it was great and 374 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: record him too. That's the other great thing. Putting a 375 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: microphone in front of his trombone and trumpet player and 376 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: the tenor player. 377 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 5: That's really exciting, you know, Yeah, it's great. 378 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: A couple of other pieces of your great music history 379 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: and want to touch upon First of all, what are 380 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: your reflections of your time with the great Jeff Beck? 381 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was that was pretty classic. Actually, Jeff and 382 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: I had a wonderful synergy, and I think especially when 383 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: it came to writing the music for Their and Back. 384 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: We had been working on that record. We started in 385 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight. Jhan Hammer came over. He had written 386 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: I think five tunes and we cut them all at Ramport, 387 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: just Jeff, Yarn and myself, no bass player. Yarn was playing, 388 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: you know, move base Jeff. A couple of the tracks 389 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: were great, but Jeff wasn't happy with everything. And then 390 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: we went on tour. We went to Japan in seventy 391 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: eight was Stanley Clark, and then we did some shows 392 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,719 Speaker 1: in Europe in seventy nine and then Jeff would you know, 393 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: he'd asked me to come down and I had introduced 394 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: him to Tony Himus whose we used to do a 395 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: lot of sessions together, and we were also in the 396 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: Jack Bruce band together, so we did a lot of playing. 397 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 5: We were playing one. 398 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: Day and running through some of these tunes and I realized, 399 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: I said, Tony, Jeff needs material. We need to get 400 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: together and start writing. And that was kind of the 401 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: start of the style that I wrote in. It was 402 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:02,479 Speaker 1: very much Tony. Tony's influence. You know, my harmonic knowledge 403 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: was very limited and but Tony's vast. So I might 404 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: have a simple melody or might have an idea of 405 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: what we should do, like the pump for example. Actually 406 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: all of the Spaceburgie, but Tony was the one that 407 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: really said okay. He took it and then of course 408 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: harmonized everything and made it, you know, sound sound amazing, 409 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: and Jeff loved it. That that was the thing, and 410 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: that's what we ended up doing for there and back. 411 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: So Yahn wrote some of the tunes, Tony and I 412 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: wrote some of the other tunes, and that was really 413 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: the start of my writing in terms of what became 414 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: Protocol and all that music. 415 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 5: But we had a wonderful time. We did. 416 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: I wish we could have done more. And I did 417 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: continue to work with Jeff actually on another project that 418 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: didn't really come to fruition, sadly, but it was a wonderful, 419 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: wonderful relationship. 420 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: Another band that well, they were on this podcast actually 421 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 2: Roland and Kurt from Tears for Fears. Tell me about 422 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: your time with Tears for Fears. 423 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: Oh it was very short, it was it was just 424 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: a session in it but it was interesting well because 425 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: I got to to I didn't meet Kurt. It was 426 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: just Roland and David Bascombe who was the producer and 427 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: engineer co producer. It was very interesting but we got 428 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: to chat a lot, which was which was great. And 429 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: the tune was lovely too. Oh well, it was on 430 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: showing the Seeds of Love that was the album, but 431 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: that was but basically it was just it was just ah, 432 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: it was. 433 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 5: It was a session. 434 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: You're known for this incredible blend of power but also vanesse. 435 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: How do you sort of decide when a song needs 436 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 2: you to sort of hold back and and then you 437 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 2: know those other moments where it's just you know, the 438 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 2: power has to shine through. 439 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: Well, experience obviously has a lot to do with it. 440 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: When I was younger, I was always trying to do 441 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: something a bit different, which didn't always work, and the 442 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: producer of the session, you know, was already in a 443 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: play simpler player and I was like, oh, okay, you know, 444 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: but that's just youth. That was me trying stuff and 445 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: introducing maybe something different to the tune. I used to 446 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: what I call it cross polonization. I would if in 447 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: those days I turned up to a session, it was 448 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: very specifically it was a it was a rock session, 449 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: heavy rock session. We didn't have heavy metal in that day. 450 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: In those days, they that term hadn't been invented. I'm 451 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: talking about the seventies. When I was like seventeen eighteen 452 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: doing sessions. I would always think, Okay, if I'm playing 453 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: on a rock session, how would Bernard Purdy play this? 454 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 1: And so I tried to introduce a big element of 455 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: soul music when we call it that. SO and R 456 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: and B was a different it was a different time 457 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: type of music then. Or funk because I used to 458 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: listen to a lot of funk music. I mean play. 459 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: I used to play anong to Billy Paul, Isaac Hayes 460 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: uh and then of course you know O Jay's the Meters, 461 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: Little Feet. Oh gosh, it's hard to recall everything, but. 462 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 2: That's quite a playlist so far as Simon I got 463 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 2: to say, I. 464 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: Mean, I love love those grooves. I love to really 465 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: get those side of those groups. Donnie Hathaway, Artha Franklin 466 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: with Bernard Perdy on on drums used to love that 467 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: and so, and to me at that time, especially in England, 468 00:27:54,040 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: rock didn't groove, didn't have a deep groove. Ian Deep 469 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 1: Purple always had a great groove, Cozy Powell had a 470 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: great groove Carminappies, But a lot of times outside of that, 471 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: I felt it's lacking this, it's a little on top, 472 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: and that kind of comes for oh, of course the 473 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: Bonzer as well, John Bonham. A lot of that comes 474 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: from our upbringing in the fifties and sixties of Dixieland 475 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: and skiffle and playing jazz. So the one big difference 476 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: between that is in England anyway, jazz was kind of 477 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: forward motion, like a little on top of the beat, 478 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: but rock was was more back and all the stuff 479 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: I was listening to was like that, but I wasn't 480 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: hearing it in a lot of other records. So that's 481 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: why I would go right, Howard Bernard play this, and 482 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: I imagined kind of and I started playing like that, 483 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: although nobody would recognize it, but that's what was in 484 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: my mind. Alternatively, when I was doing funk sessions, of 485 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: which we did a lot of, you know, I would 486 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: play a lot more splash year, a lot more open. 487 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: My sound obviously is not a typical R and B sound. 488 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: It's much more live, you know, the tom's ring, and 489 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: so I would actually play it more like, Okay, how 490 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: would he and Pace play this? You know, And that's 491 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: the mindset, and it created some interesting sounding records or tunes, 492 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: let's say, recordings, but nobody would have guessed what I 493 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: was thinking of at the time. And it goes also 494 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: in some of the films that I would play, you know, yeah, 495 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: it's just I'd like this cross polonization. And I think 496 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: the more sessions that I did, the more I was 497 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: working with great engineers, great producers and other great musicians 498 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: where timekeeping so important, and I think one of the 499 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: reasons I got so much work. 500 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 5: As a kid. 501 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: I mean, my busiest year of sessions was when I 502 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: was nineteen, nineteen seventy six. It was when I look 503 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: at it now, I go, how the hell. 504 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 5: Did I do that? 505 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: Three sessions a day pretty much every day unless I 506 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: was on an album project, which was two weeks, which 507 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: was great. You know, those are the real rock and 508 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: roll sessions. Roger Glover, Jack, Bruce Whitesnake, and I think 509 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: it just taught me an awful lot and it was 510 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: a learning curve. It was a big learning curve. Some 511 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: sessions were difficult because I couldn't figure out quite how 512 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: to do it, you know, But the guidance of all 513 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: the great musicians I played with, you know, I mean 514 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: Herbie Flowers for example, Ray Cooper, Alan Parker. It was 515 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: great training, it really was, and then then also being 516 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: interested in the production side. So it's just, you know, 517 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: it's taken many, many years too, and I'm still figuring 518 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: it out. 519 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 2: Frankly, is there one musical challenge, you know, whether it's 520 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 2: involved with Darwin or Protocol or something you're dreaming up 521 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: that you're most excited about tackling next? 522 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: Well, my next project is actually the next Protocol album. 523 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: I've been sitting in this room for the last month 524 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: writing music, and I hadn't actually written music for The 525 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: only music I've written in the last couple of years, 526 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: few years has been Darwin arranging stuff for other productions. 527 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: That's a whole different thing. But actual composition, So this 528 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: is I sat down and I said, what the hell. 529 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 5: Am I going to do? 530 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 4: You know? 531 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: So I recalled some old compositions I wanted to listen 532 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: to them, and one of them sparked off like, actually this, 533 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: I don't know why I'd never used it. This is 534 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: actually pretty cool. So I transferred it from my old 535 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: Yamaha QX three sequence so which still worked amazingly, with 536 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: these three point five discs of which said around there 537 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: and they still worked. 538 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 5: I put it in it. 539 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: Wow, it came up, and then had to transfer that 540 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: to pro Tools MIDI, and then I started work. 541 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 5: That was kind of the starting point. It just went 542 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 5: on and on from there. So and now I have 543 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 5: I think I have fifty one minutes of music so far. 544 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 2: It's awesome. What's your most cherished piece of equipment in 545 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 2: your studio that you have? Is there one particular piece 546 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 2: of equipment recording equipment? 547 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: I really think the unit that converts analog to digital. 548 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: One of the big issues is digital sampling conversion. If 549 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: that is not really high quality, it's not going to 550 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: sound great. And so when after the fire, when I 551 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: lost all my studio equipment, I had to sit down 552 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: and design from scratch a new studio. But I didn't 553 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: have anywhere to put it because I had no building 554 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: and no house. So I thought, right, what piece of 555 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: equipment do I really really love? And I've worked with 556 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: it a few times. What would it be? And it 557 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: was the ball Mothership and that's sitting right there. You 558 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: can see it. Thirty two channels in twenty four out 559 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: an AS card. And I invested in that because I 560 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: just felt I need something that sounds like a tape machine, 561 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: but without all the problems. That to me, has been 562 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: the most stable workhorse. 563 00:33:54,360 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 5: It's amazing that thing. It's not does it sound better? 564 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there's always this this question from other conversers, converters, 565 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: you know, we call them I o's. It's subtle, it's 566 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: very subtle. But when I get somebody after I've recorded 567 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: a record that maybe I've recorded previous times and they say, oh, 568 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: by the way, the drum sound amazing better than they 569 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: used to sound. 570 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,439 Speaker 5: Really okay, that's good. 571 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: It's a pleasing sound because it's that there's transformers in 572 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: each one of those cards. There's eight transformers, one for 573 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: each channel, which gives it that That's what gives it 574 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: a bit of a coloration, a bit of a sound. 575 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: It's not so cold. And really the biggest where you're 576 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: or that that is the final step between you'll never 577 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: get it back. That will be digital, and it's there, 578 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: so you'd better make that good. 579 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 5: You know. 580 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: It's the same way as capturing onto tape. You've got 581 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: to make it good going to tape. And I'm all fashioned. 582 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: I was taught by I grew up in the time 583 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: where where you. 584 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 5: Got it right. 585 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: First time, we had a twenty four track machine. One 586 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: you lost one track for SIMPTI, and you had to 587 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: get the drum kit onto one piece of tape. You 588 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: couldn't have spread over to tape machines because they're one 589 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: of them is chasing, so it would just flange. Basically, 590 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: that's what would happen. So you have to mix down. 591 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: You used to record the drums my drum kit down 592 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: to eight tracks. Now of course you can go separately, 593 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: and there's this concept of just record everything flat and 594 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: well equ it later. No, get the sound you want 595 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: straight away. And when I record guitar exactly, I want 596 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: to capture the sound the guitar player is using at 597 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: that time. I think that's very import because it's part 598 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: of his character. So I was sum two or three 599 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: mics even and record that onto one channel, just the 600 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,439 Speaker 1: way we used to do it, and it all sounded good. 601 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: Clynn John's always sounded great, you know, beautiful sounding records, 602 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: very simple and he's no frills. He's just basic, you know, 603 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: beautiful recording the way we used to do it. 604 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 5: It is lovely. 605 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 2: In closing, is there if you had an opportunity to 606 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 2: sit down with your younger self and talk about those 607 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 2: early session days, what would you tell yourself that maybe 608 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: you've learned over time, don't. 609 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 5: Be so damn bulshy, open your mind up. 610 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: I was very it was very narrow minded, and I 611 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: want to play something a certain way, and the producer said, no, 612 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: it's too complicated or whatever it is. 613 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 5: Try this, try that, you know, and I go, okay. 614 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: You know, I think with age, I've learned to be 615 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: a lot more open minded, you know. So back in 616 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: those days, it was in the eighties, we started what 617 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: I call under dubbing, especially for a drama. There was 618 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: music already recorded and you had to play drums and 619 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: take the drum machine off because now we had drum machines. 620 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: I would listen to a track and I go or 621 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: sometimes I'd say that I don't want to hear the 622 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: program drums, just let me hear the music with a click. 623 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: And I'd listened to that and start formulating an idea. 624 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: But when I went out to the studio and started 625 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 1: put the head phones on and said, okay, send us 626 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: the track, let's go, you know, and started playing, I 627 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: played something totally different to what I thought I was 628 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: going to play. And I think that was just experience 629 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: and something i'd learned to play instinctively. And I've always 630 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: I think I've always played instinctively. I sometimes I really 631 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: don't know what to play, and yet starts moving and 632 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: making noise. 633 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 5: It's weird, you know. 634 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes if a track is kind of complex, I use that. 635 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: I call it the Steve gadd method. Play it as 636 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: simply as you can get away with. It's a wonderful 637 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: thing because with complex music, it's all very clever. 638 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 5: But anything has to groove, it has to swing, it's 639 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 5: got to have a groove. 640 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: And that usually it tels that you need to find 641 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 1: a common denominator. I'll find a way of playing something 642 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: that's complex quite simple, and then and I'll break it down. 643 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: I might just run the track and just play just 644 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: high hat just for a bit. Then I'll listen to 645 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: what's going I go, okay, let's put a back beat there, 646 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: and then let's put a back beat here, and they 647 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: may not be traditional bat beat, especially if the thing 648 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: is in thirteen eight or something, you know, And then 649 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: I'll find a way of connecting it all up where 650 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: there's a common threat, and that way, the complex song 651 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: now has a groove that people can relate to, and 652 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: I think that's very important. Everybody does it differently, but 653 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: that's to me. Even when I've written complicated music on 654 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: the last album, there was something in nineteen, I still 655 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: try to make it. I'm not going to say danceable, 656 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: but groovable, let's say. I think that's very important for 657 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: the listener. 658 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:38,240 Speaker 2: Oh, this is so amazing, well listen. Congratulations on Distorted Mirror, 659 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 2: first of all, the Darwin project and also the work 660 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 2: you're in the midst of. I knew you would be 661 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 2: in the midst of it, knowing the way you're always 662 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 2: creating with protocol. What a fascinating walk through music history, 663 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: through a great career that's constantly inventing and reinventing. Simon Phillips, 664 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to have you on Taking a Walk. 665 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 5: Thank you very much, thank you very enjoyable. 666 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a 667 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 4: Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends 668 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 4: and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking 669 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 4: a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 670 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 4: and wherever you get your podcasts. 671 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 2: Taking a Walk is made possible by the support of 672 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,760 Speaker 2: our great sponsors, and we thanked them, including Chase Sapphire Reserve. 673 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 2: My gateway to the world's most captivating destinations is from 674 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 2: Chase Sapphire Reserve, Claude AI. Try Claud for free at 675 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,879 Speaker 2: Claude dot Ai, slash Buzz and Lexis Experience Amazing at 676 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 2: your Lexus dealer now