WEBVTT - Meghan Markle: Inside the Racist, Sexist Online Hate Campaign Targeting the Royals 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:04.000 Welcome to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. As always, 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.320 I am joined by my producer, Sophie. Sophie, how are you? 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:11.600 It's three? How are you? I can't believe he made 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:17.079 a girl. It did not seem likely, but alas, we 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:21.360 did it. I'm proud of us. We did it. But Sophie, 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:26.000 I have to ask, what is your connection to the royals? Listen? 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.320 Not much except that I really liked Princess Diana when 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:33.440 I was like in the seventh and the eighth grade, 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:38.080 super into Princess Diana. And then now it's like you 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:43.400 have no choice because the Harry and Megan's story is everywhere. 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.720 You cannot scroll. There is no peace. It feels like 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:51.200 it's everywhere, especially like the Netflix special Harry's memoir Spare Drafts. 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.000 This week, He's speaking to Anderson Cooper in like two 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.880 days too for like an hour long interview thing. I'm 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:03.920 like my guys out there, so I'm kind of like you, 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.080 Like I am a casual. I have a very casual 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.360 interest in the Royals, and that's why I'm really really 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:12.600 excited to be joined by Ellie Hall. Ellie It's a 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.000 senior reporter at BuzzFeed and just an overall very cool 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:19.080 human and she knows so much about the Royals from 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.240 covering them immensely. Ellie, thank you so much for being here. 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.360 Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. I remember 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.000 the first we were just talking about this off Mike. 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:28.720 The first time that I met you in person was 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:30.880 at a Digital Void event here in d C. And 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:32.520 I was a little drunk, but I was also like 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:34.880 mildly star struck. I was like, oh my god, that's 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:39.040 Ellie Hall. I remember heaping like effusive praise on you 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:40.640 and your work, to the point where I was like, 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.080 she probably thinks I'm very drunk, but it was very sincere. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:46.520 I just sounded like it was. It was drunk talk. 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.120 It was like very sincere talk. To be fair. I 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.800 was a little drunk too, I record, but no, because 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:54.720 like I were mutuals on Twitter. So I was like, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.040 oh my god, it's you. That's great, and um, you know, 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.280 I'm really proud of all the rolpoling that I've done, 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.000 So it was very nice of you. Just generally, how 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.080 did you come to be someone who covered the Royals? 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.440 I didn't really start following it a whole bunch until 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.520 William Kay got married. I feel like that was the 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.480 big sort of thing in two thousand and eleven, that 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:18.640 was a reset of the Royal family, and we're in 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:22.320 a new era. So um, I followed it since then 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:24.960 and when I started at BuzzFeed in and I cannot 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.520 believe I have been there ten years now. Congratulations. First 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:31.000 of all, a long time. Yeah, it's a long time. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.040 Thank you. Um. Nobody else care about the Royal family, 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:35.919 so it was sort of like, who's reporting on the 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:40.560 Royal family this girl, And it's just sort of I've 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:44.160 continued reporting on it for all these years since, and 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.359 it's gotten When I said, when you know what I started, 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.920 I had no idea how to even contact the palace 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.160 for comment and stuff like that. And you know, now 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.919 I'm like in, I get the press releases and everything, 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.880 and I know of the spokespeople, but it took a 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.600 while to get to like royal reporter level. I'm sure 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.240 some people listening are like, oh, the Royal family, that's 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.120 just fluff, Like who cares celebrity gossip whatever, But it 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.880 really does tell us a lot about gender, class, race, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.280 all of these things that are so deeply embedded our 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.639 in our society. I think that coverage of the royal 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.400 family and kind of coverage of the coverage, How is 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.560 the media framing them? What does it tell us? Can 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:27.560 really say so much about these deeper, thornier issues that 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.000 we all grapple with every day. Oh yeah, and that's 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:36.000 what makes following the royal family particularly now really interesting 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.200 because you can tell a whole lot about society. Like there, 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:43.480 so there was this, this just happened. A UK columnist 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.560 named Jeremy Clarkson wrote a column about Megan Markle or 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.760 she's Megan the Duchessess Megan the Duchess's Essex, and he 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:54.760 was criticizing her because of Harry Megan's recent Netflix show, 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.720 and he said some horrible things. He said like he 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.520 wanted her to walk naked through a screaming crowd and 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:07.240 have people throwing excrements like the right, that's that guy. Yeah, 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:08.720 that's that's what he said. But at the same time, 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:12.080 like who was your editor, my dude, Like let that 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:16.440 get into the paper. Yeah, And watching people watching people 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:17.880 who defended it saying like oh, it's a Game of 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.680 Thrones reference, and then watching other people be like are 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.920 we on the same page? Here? Happens as appropriate, So 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.039 like watching The reaction to that was really interesting because 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:34.040 you see the different levels of culture and you can 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.159 in it aligns by class a lot of the time. So, yeah, 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.960 the Royal family can show us so much about almost 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.359 any issue, including politics, Like that's going to be a 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.080 big one now that Charles is king, because he has 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.599 been politically active all of his life, you know, not 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:51.480 in not in like I'm gonna go on vote way 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.680 because he can't. But he's advocated for climate change. There 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:56.679 was a scandal, I think it was in the nineties. 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.960 There was a scandal where papers that he had written, 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.839 they were called the Spider Papers, like he had written 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.680 like two politicians and expressed opinions about political things, and 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.839 they hit the newspapers. So what is his role going 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.120 to be and what's his role with the government gonna be? 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.640 Like is it going to be awkward? Is it not? So? Yeah, 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.520 I think you're going on and on about this, but 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:23.400 it's classism, racism, xenophobia, all all of these things you 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.560 can see and through the lens of the Royal family, 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:28.960 And that is honestly exactly what I want to be 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.240 talking about in this episode. Megan Markel and the gendered, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.600 racialized hate harassment and disinformation campaigns that we know surround her. 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.000 And again, it's not really about Megan Markle. To me, 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.200 it's really about how easy it is for a relatively 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.200 small number of people. Um. I would usually call them 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.080 bad actors, but somebody left a review on the podcast 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.039 saying that this podcast could be a drinking game every 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.640 time I used the term bad actors, and that reviewer 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:56.680 was correct. I do say it a lot. It's like 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.880 you would be are you would be blackout drunk if 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:03.279 you took a shot every time I say it, But 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.560 it's just because it's like the term that we use 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:12.320 this information. But these people are able to completely hijack 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:16.200 the conversation around this specific person. And like, as someone 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.000 who is just a casual observer of the royals, like 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.320 I don't. I'm not a hyper focused person who was 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.840 like obsessed with them. You know, I liked it when 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.479 Megan Merkele was introduced, Like I like the idea of like, oh, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.440 black princess, even though you know, Duchess not a princess. 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.120 I know, I do think it's a I know, right, 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:40.520 Like it's still technically technically even if she lost Duchess 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.600 of Sussex her title would be Princess Henry. Oh ship, 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.240 there we go. Yeah, And for those who don't know, 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:51.200 Henry is Prince Harry. That's his actual name. Um, it's confusing. Yeah, 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.520 Princess Henry. Yeah, Prince Prince Henry. Princess Henry would be 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.960 her name, black princess. There we go. Uh so yeah, 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.440 I think it's really it's a great sample of the 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.640 way that these the small dedicated number of people is 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:08.039 able to completely dominate and hijack the conversation and traffic 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:13.440 in racism, sexism and have that be like a relatively 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.320 lucrative enterprise, right, and then we see this sort of 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.200 like take off with different targets. And so I've actually 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.960 heard that's referred to as an anti fandom, which I 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.080 had never heard before doing the research for this episode. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.560 But I think like exactly what you think of it as, right, 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:32.720 like people who are really really dedicated the same way 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:34.920 that a fandom is, but in the opposite direction, and 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.840 anti fandom, they are really really dedicated to hating a 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.200 single person. Can I Can I jump in right quick 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.880 and saying please, I see that article. It's a Refinery article. 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.880 You really, everybody if this makes it into the podcast. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:48.640 You really should read it. It's one of the best 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:51.840 pieces about the anti Meg and Markle uh just sort 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.960 of campaign on the internet out there. It's great piece. Well, 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.080 definitely link in the show notes it really it really 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:58.920 kind of opened my eyes to the way that this 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.680 is not just people. Like everybody has a celebrity or 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.160 someone that they don't like that like rubs them the 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.480 wrong way, not everybody dedicates so much of their time, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.320 energy and effort into their hatred of that person, bonding, 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.200 like forming these social bonds through that hatred of other people, 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.840 coordinating with other people who hate that person. Like there's 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.080 a pretty big difference between you know, I don't really 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.280 care for such and such and the level of dedicated 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:29.080 commitment that this anti fandom has to hating this one person. 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:31.720 Like that article really makes it clear what we're dealing with, 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:33.920 So will definitely link it in the show notes. Yeah, 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:35.680 and it's not so. The thing that is a little 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.679 weird about this is some of these people are only 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.120 they're only paying lip service to being Reyal Family fans. 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.920 Like there are some people who like I call them 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.520 royalist accounts Sussex people who do not like the Royal 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.240 Family called him derangers. Like there's some people who really 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.240 like the Royal family and will make I would say, 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.000 like reasonable criticism of Harry and Megan. But then there 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.320 are some of these anti Megan accounts don't care about 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.440 the Royal family. They just they just care about trashing Megan. 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.240 And yeah, maybe they'll post a picture of the Queen 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.360 um a few times, you know, a picture from our funeral, 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:12.240 but their main thing is posting negative stuff about Megan, 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.000 which is weird. It's so weird, and I think it 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.200 really a points something else out that I'm always saying 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.120 on this show, which is that you talked about how 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:23.240 some people maybe are interested in, you know, reasonable criticism 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.560 or conversation about the Royals, but that when when you 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.920 have these hate campaigns, the people who are interested in thoughtful, 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.320 reasonable criticism and conversation are completely drowned out, and you 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:36.600 have these people who like don't even really care about 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.080 the Royals dominating the conversation, who are only interested in 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.240 traffic again, hate, like that's what they're interested in. So 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.679 that I that's that's really really funny you said that, um, 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.160 because that that's my line. And for a while there 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:50.840 was a time when I would interact with some of 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:55.520 these accounts because, like, my thing is engaging in good faith. 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.880 I believe in good faith journalism. I think that the 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.360 world is better when you can go to somebody who 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.600 disagrees with you and both of you enter into that 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.720 disagreement in good faith, coming from a place of I 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.400 believe one thing, you believe the other. Let's let's try 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.520 to figure out if there's common ground. Not coming from 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.520 a place of I'm never going to change my mind. 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.120 I'm sea lioning, i am, but actually I'm you know, 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.520 I am never ever ever going to even attempt to 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:25.920 see your point of view. And that's what these people do, 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.480 and hilariously that has gotten me a nickname in the 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:34.839 anti Megan community. I am hashtag good faith Ellie. First 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:42.920 of all hot, Second of all hot. Ask someone who 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.760 covers this for a living, what is it like the 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.520 way that people who are so entrenched and so dug 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.920 into like nothing will ever convince me that Megan Markle 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.920 is not a narcissist liar this that what is it 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:00.160 like to have them personally come after you? Really it's 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.520 reporting the truth and like wanting to amplify good faith 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:07.360 conversations based in honesty, I'm not gonna lie. When it 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.040 first started getting pretty pretty bad, like my therapist and 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.600 I had to talk about it. But the main thing 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:17.079 here is that it's not about me. I am an 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.560 extension of how they feel about certain people. Because like 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.440 it's not just uh, you know, you write about Megan 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:25.000 or oh, you write about the Royal family. It's like 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.760 people genuinely believe or say they believe it, Like I'm 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.960 being paid by Harry and Megan for the work that 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.280 I do, and it's like no buzz BuzzFeed, busky news 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.319 with only people who who write my paychecks. But at 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.600 a certain point, you you do start feeling like you're 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.880 going a little bit insane because you're have you I 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.080 have people in my inbox who are telling me that 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.080 Megan wore a moon bump to fake both of her 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:51.400 pregnancies and she had a surrogate. I have people, uh, 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.600 you know, saying that she was associated with Jeffrey Epstein 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.400 and like she was on Epstein's island, or that she 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.360 was a yacht girl. And these people believe either they don't. 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:03.920 They don't only believe it, they're posting online so that 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.920 they can get other people to believe it, and you know, 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.960 it feels Trumpian in a way that when all that 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:14.040 started happening, that was a very it was sort of 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.920 like looking into a mirror of you know, the politics 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:18.240 side of it instead of the world side of it, 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.679 because you can't reason with some of these people. They 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.200 are they are convinced that it's true. Yeah, I definitely 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.439 see the Q and On influence in in in that 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:31.040 type of rhetoric, in the I'm gonna take something, I'm 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:32.720 gonna run with it and I'm gonna try to force 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.720 it on people, and then that and and and like 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:38.160 to something where you say it to somebody who's not 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.080 fully involved with the topic and you say to them 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.600 and they're like, what are you a moon bob? What 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:49.160 are you talking about? But they believe it. They believe it. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.480 They really believe it. That's the thing. That's the thing 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:56.440 that that I'm like, No, they wholeheartedly believe what they're 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.840 saying is true. And the thing that makes it difficult 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:04.120 and is that that poisons all of the discourse when 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.959 you have that group of people, It poisons all of 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.440 the conversations about the royal family online and this even 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.280 includes within you know, Megan's online supporters who call themselves 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:19.960 the Sussex Squad because there's so much horrible nous coming 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.160 and an irrational and crazy and conspiracy theory, irrational nous 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.280 coming from the anti Megan's side, their need jerk responses 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.600 to be defensive to everything, and and you know, not 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.160 accept any criticism of Megan. Harry like every you can 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:36.800 criticize everybody, and even like Megan said this in an 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.800 in uh the interview she did in South Africa, she said, 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.040 you know, as long as the criticism is fair, Harry 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:43.440 and I don't care about it, but it has to 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:48.079 be fair. And when you're at a point where certain 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:52.440 people are defending Megan from allegations that are racist in 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:56.640 our sexist, you can't have discourse because no one, no 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.520 one's ever gonna no one will ever meet in the 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.800 middle about this because there's just too much nonsense flying 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.360 around the internet and there's so much bad faith. You 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.040 say bad actors, I say bad faith. I can understand 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.679 and have gotten and caught up in it myself. The 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.440 the feeling like you need to take a side to 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:19.440 defend somebody who is being unfairly attacked against criticisms that 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.160 are nonsense, right Like, I feel it a lot with 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.960 Kamala Harris. I'm no big fan of Kamala Harris. I 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.880 don't think that she deserves to be like facing racist, 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.800 sexist swipes or things like that, and so you feel 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.160 like you need to take a side because you see 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.800 somebody being so unfairly attacked that you're like, well, obviously 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.200 I have to defend them. And that's not good discourse. 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.200 That doesn't that doesn't create the conditions for people to 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:44.040 have actual truth based criticisms. And actually, somebody who didn't 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.000 like Megan Merkle or didn't like Kamala Harris should actually 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.040 want to have a climate where we people can have 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:54.240 substitutive critical conversations about their issues with that person. Right 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.280 Like when you have a dynamic where one side is 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:02.240 drumming up false racist, conspiracy theory laden nonsense and another 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.520 side is just like defending them, nobody is actually having 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.880 the like, actual thoughtful conversation based in reality about the 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.160 pros and cons of this person or how they present 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.720 or what they do, and say no, and it's also 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:16.840 like you attacked me, so I'll attack back if you. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.840 This is I hate how Twitter sent tells you like 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.360 the things that it thinks you're interested in that are trending. 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.720 But it's helpful for me because I follow royal stuff. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:31.400 Like you will see people on SUSI side like amplifying 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:37.320 rumors about William and Kate. There has long been a uh, 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.560 I'll say conspiracy theory, um, but who really knows. There's 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.760 long been a theory out there that William cheated on Kate, 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.920 and that is like there's there's we haven't seen any 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.480 real evidence of the of this, but like that is 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:54.520 accepted as truth by the other side. So when you 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.200 have these things that our conspiracy theories and that are 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.760 accepted as truth, it goes both hats and no one, 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:03.200 Like like we just said, no one can meet in 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.880 the middle, yeah and correct me if I'm wrong? Is 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:10.239 it Prince Andrew like a known sexual abuser? Like yeah, 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:12.560 couldn't we all just like join forces and be like, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.680 let's if we're gonna call anybody something that like like 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.320 as somebody who has you know, covered that side of 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.880 it and like really learned a lot about It's like, 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.840 why is that not the conversation every single day? Why 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:28.920 is that not the thing that the that the like 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.240 that that is going on. Why do they not why 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.200 do they not care? Why is that not the thing? 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.320 Why are they focusing on this this this woman from 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.440 l A who wears tall uggs, Like why do they 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.280 give a fuck? Like that's the thing that blows my mind. 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.440 I'm like, you have somebody who was involved with Jeffrey Epstein, 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:52.040 who is a prince. Ellie helped me. So as far 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.520 as far as that goes, I think that, you know, 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.760 one part of it off the bat that um everyone 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.200 would say is just that like he's done, especially since 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.840 Charles is came now like he is done. Um he 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.640 for some reason, he still had an office in Buckingham 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.399 Palace for the past few years. As soon as the 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.760 Queen died, Charles shut that ship down. It's you know, 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:15.639 so it's it's very clear, like he's never gonna come 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.280 back to public life and he's just going to be 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:19.879 a family member for the rest of his life. And 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:24.040 I feel like that's a closed book now for some 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.520 people because like what else are you're gonna do? Like 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.160 there's there are no there are no new lawsuits coming forth. 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.760 But the problem is the comparisons that start happening because 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.600 you look at Harry and you look at Andrew. They 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.640 both stepped back to public life for two very different reasons. 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.080 I want to be clear that I'm not in this episode. 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.840 I'm not trying to make anyone feel any kind of 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.440 way about Megan and Harry. Right. People can think whenever 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.720 they want to think about them, Totally fine. But there's 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.760 a very clear difference in being like, oh, I don't 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.639 care for her podcast or whatever, and a engaging in 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.520 a sophisticated, coordinated disinformation campaign against her that it really 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.480 traffics in the sexist, racist stereotypes and conspiracy theories and 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:14.360 profiting off of it. So I want to get into 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.120 a little bit about how we know that this these 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.280 campaigns work, which I know we saw a little bit 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.240 of on their recent Netflix documentary. Yeah, Bridget, I do 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.320 you remember like in I think it was in December 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.639 where I text you and I was like I was like, uh, yeah, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:30.760 I think we have to talk about this, and they're like, 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:32.800 do I have to watch it? And I was like, 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.680 I was like, I was, it seems like really boring, 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:39.159 And I was like, there's an entire episode that focuses 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.760 on like single use hate accounts and like goes into 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.159 the targeted and like that side of it, Like they 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.840 could have done an entire series on that. Like everything 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.919 everything else is not relevant really to this podcast, but 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.960 that thing. I have said this publicly yet so that 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.000 you guys will you know, don't don't breaking breaking a 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.720 little news if this makes if this makes it in, 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:03.879 I feel like they won't kill me. UM. I was 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.560 interviewed for the documentary and didn't make it into the 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.800 final cut. What what? What was your spicy commentary? Tell 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:13.240 us it was the only reason I'm saying this was 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:14.919 because it was about this. It was about this, this 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.600 sort of internet thing. So I was, yeah, that was 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:19.960 That was last February, UM, And I didn't know it 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.560 was for their documentary until like October. So I know 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.480 that you've done a lot of great coverage on Christopher 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.800 Boozy's report. If you don't know who Christopher Boozy is, 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.840 he runs Bought Sentinel, which is an organization that analyzes 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.639 Twitter data, and his analysis shows that a lot of 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.080 this hate that's been thrown at Megan has been driven 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.320 by I would say a lot you were accounts than 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.240 folks might suspect. In fact, just a few accounts have 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.760 been able to artificially influence the conversation around Megan on 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:50.400 social media. He found that only eighty three accounts generate 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.359 seventy of Megan Markle hate content on Twitter, and they 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.760 estimate that a combined they have a combined unique potential 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.280 reach of seventeen million users, which again, like to me, 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.760 that only a handful of accounts would be able to 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:08.720 so effectively dominate and shape the conversation about one person 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.080 is kind of wild to me. This is probably like 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:16.200 one of the it's one of the few day driven 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:20.399 stories that I've reported on in my career, but the 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.719 numbers shocked me. So what happened here was I had 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:27.760 been following Bought Sentinel for a while because um, I've 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.119 done misinformation reporting and my I know some of my 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.680 colleagues had quoted from them before, for for about a 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.480 climate change story or something like that. So like Christopher 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.960 Boozy and Boston and all known in the misinformation industry, 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:46.359 and he tweeted something about I can't even remember what 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.280 it was. He made some comment about Megan and Harry, 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.600 and all of a sudden his replies were swarmed with 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:54.360 these people. Because that's what happens if you say something 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.440 nice about Megan and Harry. At some point, people will 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.719 come and start swarming your replies, particularly if you're verified 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.480 at cat out and it got nasty, like somebody made 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.000 some comment about his mother who had died of COVID. 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.680 Oh my god. Yeah, and you know because of that, 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.879 He's like, what's going on here? Like what is this? This? 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:14.960 Who are these people who have all of a sudden 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.600 started coming for me? I'm going to look into them. 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.719 So he ran hashtag analysis, well, he in Boughton all 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:25.040 ran the hashtag analyzes with uh different I could pull 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:26.199 it up, but I don't know where it is on 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:31.600 my computer, with different um like hashtags and words in there, 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.760 looking for all of the tweets about Harry and Megan 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:38.760