1 00:00:15,236 --> 00:00:31,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I grew up playing sports baseball, bowling, volleyball, football, 2 00:00:31,636 --> 00:00:37,596 Speaker 1: floor hockey, dodgeball, track basketball. Loved the battle, the competition, 3 00:00:37,676 --> 00:00:42,036 Speaker 1: the trash talking, and I hated losing. Days were lost 4 00:00:42,396 --> 00:00:47,236 Speaker 1: when I lost big games. I played baseball and basketball 5 00:00:47,356 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 1: the longest. Growing up in Queens, New York and Manassas, Virginia, 6 00:00:51,716 --> 00:00:54,876 Speaker 1: I dreamed of playing in the NBA, duking it out 7 00:00:54,916 --> 00:00:57,756 Speaker 1: with the next Michael Jordan as the next John Starks. 8 00:00:58,556 --> 00:01:02,436 Speaker 1: But as high school graduation approached, I knew the dream 9 00:01:02,596 --> 00:01:06,916 Speaker 1: would remain a dream. When I arrived at college in 10 00:01:06,956 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 1: the fall of two thousand on a backup plan sports journalism. 11 00:01:13,076 --> 00:01:17,996 Speaker 1: I never imagined writing about racism. I planned on sticking 12 00:01:18,156 --> 00:01:26,476 Speaker 1: to sports. I'm Abramax Kendy, and this is b anti racist. 13 00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:31,796 Speaker 1: I worked tirelessly to jump start my sports journalism career. 14 00:01:32,716 --> 00:01:36,956 Speaker 1: I took unpaid internships at notable papers, took after hours 15 00:01:37,076 --> 00:01:40,436 Speaker 1: jobs to make ends meet. I became the sports editor 16 00:01:40,476 --> 00:01:44,236 Speaker 1: at my college newspaper. Shortly after my junior year, I 17 00:01:44,396 --> 00:01:48,716 Speaker 1: landed my first paid internship at the Mobile Register. The 18 00:01:48,836 --> 00:01:52,836 Speaker 1: year was two thousand and three, four decades after President 19 00:01:52,956 --> 00:01:56,996 Speaker 1: Kennedy had ordered the National Guard to desegregate the University 20 00:01:56,996 --> 00:02:02,076 Speaker 1: of Alabama this afternoon. Following a series of threats and 21 00:02:02,236 --> 00:02:07,956 Speaker 1: defined statements, the Presidence of Alabama National Guardsman was required 22 00:02:07,996 --> 00:02:11,636 Speaker 1: on the University of Alabama to carry out the final 23 00:02:11,716 --> 00:02:15,996 Speaker 1: and unequivocal order of the United States District Court of 24 00:02:16,116 --> 00:02:19,636 Speaker 1: the Northern District of Alabama. That order called for the 25 00:02:19,676 --> 00:02:25,316 Speaker 1: admission of two clearly qualified young Alabama residents who happened 26 00:02:25,316 --> 00:02:29,036 Speaker 1: to have been born Nigro. Now there was a big 27 00:02:29,076 --> 00:02:33,956 Speaker 1: sports story on campus. The university had considered hiring Sylvester 28 00:02:34,116 --> 00:02:37,076 Speaker 1: Crum to become the first blackhead football coach at the 29 00:02:37,116 --> 00:02:43,036 Speaker 1: institution and in the entire Southeastern Conference. Crum was born 30 00:02:43,076 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: in Tuscaloosa and was one of the first black football 31 00:02:46,276 --> 00:02:50,236 Speaker 1: players at Alabama, playing for a legendary coach, Bear Bryant. 32 00:02:52,196 --> 00:02:55,676 Speaker 1: When Croom played for the crincon Tide the University of 33 00:02:55,676 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: Alabama's football team, they won all but two of their games, 34 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:04,236 Speaker 1: won three consecutive conference championships, and were the nineteen seventy 35 00:03:04,236 --> 00:03:07,756 Speaker 1: three National champions. He went on to have a career 36 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:12,876 Speaker 1: as an assistant coach in the NFL, but the University 37 00:03:12,916 --> 00:03:16,156 Speaker 1: of Alabama snub crewm in favor of a white coach 38 00:03:16,356 --> 00:03:21,356 Speaker 1: with significantly less coaching experience. CREWM said at the time, 39 00:03:22,796 --> 00:03:25,476 Speaker 1: black guys are good enough to play for them, good 40 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 1: enough to be assisting coaches, and not good enough to 41 00:03:28,356 --> 00:03:31,476 Speaker 1: be in the positions of decision making and the positions 42 00:03:31,476 --> 00:03:36,836 Speaker 1: of high financial reward. At the Mobile Register that summer, 43 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:39,636 Speaker 1: I wondered what some of the top high school football 44 00:03:39,676 --> 00:03:42,676 Speaker 1: recruits in the region thought. It was two thousand and 45 00:03:42,676 --> 00:03:46,276 Speaker 1: three and the SEC still had never had a blackhead 46 00:03:46,316 --> 00:03:50,836 Speaker 1: football coach. I was surprised when every single recruit I 47 00:03:50,916 --> 00:03:54,716 Speaker 1: interviewed said they'd prefer to play for a blackhead football coach. 48 00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:58,996 Speaker 1: Readers of the Mobile Register were surprised when we reported 49 00:03:58,996 --> 00:04:02,676 Speaker 1: the news. I served as a vehicle for these black 50 00:04:02,716 --> 00:04:06,116 Speaker 1: athletes to speak their truth. They didn't just shut up 51 00:04:06,116 --> 00:04:09,996 Speaker 1: and play. They inspired me as I learned firsthand the 52 00:04:10,076 --> 00:04:14,236 Speaker 1: interplay of race and sport. When I returned to campus 53 00:04:14,276 --> 00:04:17,076 Speaker 1: in the fall of two thousand and three, I decided 54 00:04:17,076 --> 00:04:21,396 Speaker 1: to double major in African American studies. I came to 55 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 1: see how much black athletes and other athletes of color 56 00:04:24,836 --> 00:04:28,476 Speaker 1: were treated as commodities whose points on the square board 57 00:04:28,876 --> 00:04:34,076 Speaker 1: mattered more than their lives. Policies and decisions concerning the 58 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:38,636 Speaker 1: upcoming Tokyo Olympics have offered painful reminders of this fact. 59 00:04:39,476 --> 00:04:44,716 Speaker 1: The International Olympic Committee bar Kary Richardson, the fastest woman 60 00:04:44,756 --> 00:04:48,196 Speaker 1: in the United States, from participating in the one hundred 61 00:04:48,196 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 1: meter dash, for legally smoking marijuana after learning about the 62 00:04:52,916 --> 00:04:57,396 Speaker 1: passing of her mother. USA Track and Field recently announced 63 00:04:57,436 --> 00:05:01,236 Speaker 1: that cc Telfer, a black trans runner, will not be 64 00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:04,716 Speaker 1: able to participate in the four hundred meter hurdle despite 65 00:05:04,796 --> 00:05:09,196 Speaker 1: meeting the performance requirements for the event. The policing of 66 00:05:09,276 --> 00:05:14,876 Speaker 1: black women's femininity did not end there. Christine Umboma and 67 00:05:14,996 --> 00:05:20,516 Speaker 1: Beatrice Massilingi, two sister gender sprinters from Namibia, have been 68 00:05:20,596 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 1: ruled ineligible to compete in the women's four hundred meter 69 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:30,956 Speaker 1: due to natural high testosterone levels. The International Swimming Federation 70 00:05:31,116 --> 00:05:34,676 Speaker 1: banned the use of soul caps designed for black hair 71 00:05:35,276 --> 00:05:38,076 Speaker 1: on the grounds that the caps did not follow the 72 00:05:38,116 --> 00:05:42,036 Speaker 1: so called natural form of the head. At the same 73 00:05:42,076 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 1: time that these racist, misogynistic, and transphobic policies were enforced, 74 00:05:47,876 --> 00:05:51,956 Speaker 1: the IOC has ruled that athletes could not stage protests 75 00:05:51,996 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: against them during events or metal ceremonies. Thinking back on 76 00:05:57,516 --> 00:06:01,276 Speaker 1: it now, I got into writing by writing about sports, 77 00:06:01,916 --> 00:06:05,996 Speaker 1: But it was sports that pushed me into writing about racism, 78 00:06:06,676 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 1: and the rest is history. Welcome to Be Anti Racist 79 00:06:15,116 --> 00:06:19,476 Speaker 1: in Action podcasts where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, 80 00:06:19,556 --> 00:06:24,116 Speaker 1: and abolish racism, how to save humanity from the divisiveness 81 00:06:24,116 --> 00:06:29,076 Speaker 1: of racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power and policy, 82 00:06:29,476 --> 00:06:32,756 Speaker 1: how to free humanity through the unity of anti racist 83 00:06:32,796 --> 00:06:37,836 Speaker 1: ideas and the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy. 84 00:06:38,316 --> 00:06:41,636 Speaker 1: On Be Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the 85 00:06:41,716 --> 00:06:45,876 Speaker 1: impossible possible and how to bring into being what modern 86 00:06:45,996 --> 00:06:52,316 Speaker 1: humans have never known, a just an equitable world. You ready, 87 00:06:53,196 --> 00:07:10,236 Speaker 1: let's roll. There's a huge bass to people who believe 88 00:07:10,676 --> 00:07:13,556 Speaker 1: that sports and politics should mix, But in this case, 89 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:16,556 Speaker 1: they've always mixed together. I mean, think about it, Jackie Robinson, 90 00:07:16,796 --> 00:07:20,836 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali, Bill Russell. We've always had these different intersections 91 00:07:20,836 --> 00:07:24,636 Speaker 1: between sports, race, politics, and gender, and usually people that 92 00:07:24,756 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 1: object to that intersection because they don't like the viewpoint 93 00:07:28,516 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 1: or opinion being expressed. So it's not really about the 94 00:07:31,556 --> 00:07:33,636 Speaker 1: fact that they're mixing. They're just mixing in a way 95 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:37,276 Speaker 1: that makes them uncomfortable. Similar to how athletes are told 96 00:07:37,316 --> 00:07:40,516 Speaker 1: to shut up and dribble, many journalists of color are 97 00:07:40,516 --> 00:07:43,556 Speaker 1: told to shut up and write. There is perhaps no 98 00:07:43,596 --> 00:07:47,516 Speaker 1: one better versed in this reality than Jamal Hill. Jamal 99 00:07:47,676 --> 00:07:50,676 Speaker 1: went from being the only black woman sports columnist in 100 00:07:50,796 --> 00:07:53,876 Speaker 1: all of North America to co hosting her own show, 101 00:07:54,156 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 1: an anchoring sports center on ESPN, but everything changed in 102 00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:02,476 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. On Monday, the ESPN host went off on 103 00:08:02,516 --> 00:08:05,996 Speaker 1: social media, criticizing the President and going as far as 104 00:08:06,036 --> 00:08:09,676 Speaker 1: calling Trump or white supremacist. Trump went out to Jamal, 105 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:12,516 Speaker 1: as he did a series of other black women journalists 106 00:08:12,596 --> 00:08:16,036 Speaker 1: during his presidency. His tweets said the following, with Jamille 107 00:08:16,116 --> 00:08:19,956 Speaker 1: Hill at the mic, It's no wonder ESPN ratings have tanked, 108 00:08:19,996 --> 00:08:22,356 Speaker 1: In fact, tanks so badly it is the talk of 109 00:08:22,396 --> 00:08:27,676 Speaker 1: the industry. She ultimately left ESPN. Jamal Hill is now 110 00:08:27,716 --> 00:08:31,316 Speaker 1: the host of a podcast with the illest name, Unbothered. 111 00:08:31,756 --> 00:08:35,396 Speaker 1: She's also a contributing writer at The Atlantic. We sat 112 00:08:35,436 --> 00:08:38,516 Speaker 1: down recently to discuss how important it is to overhaul 113 00:08:38,636 --> 00:08:42,236 Speaker 1: sports from ownership to fandom to media if we want 114 00:08:42,276 --> 00:08:46,956 Speaker 1: to achieve an anti racist future. Jamale, I'm so glad 115 00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:49,756 Speaker 1: we're able to get some time to chet. It's a 116 00:08:49,756 --> 00:08:52,356 Speaker 1: pleasure definitely for me. To be here as well. Me 117 00:08:52,436 --> 00:08:54,596 Speaker 1: and my husband actually are in the process of reading. 118 00:08:55,996 --> 00:08:58,516 Speaker 1: Just so you know, I first want to ask you 119 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:01,356 Speaker 1: about I know you wrote about it in The Atlantic, 120 00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:06,316 Speaker 1: but your reaction to what's been happening with Naomi. You 121 00:09:06,356 --> 00:09:09,436 Speaker 1: wrote about it being a larger struggle within sport into 122 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:12,196 Speaker 1: if you could just share with your thoughts about that, 123 00:09:12,516 --> 00:09:16,036 Speaker 1: naomeal Socta. You know, it's a really complicated issue, her 124 00:09:16,076 --> 00:09:20,556 Speaker 1: mental health, of course being the first major component of 125 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:24,076 Speaker 1: this conversation for people who maybe don't follow tennis. What 126 00:09:24,156 --> 00:09:28,276 Speaker 1: she said about the anxiety depression, I think the scope 127 00:09:28,276 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 1: of it was new, But Naomi has always intimated that 128 00:09:32,516 --> 00:09:36,836 Speaker 1: she struggles in terms of public speaking, which is always 129 00:09:36,876 --> 00:09:39,156 Speaker 1: interesting to me because every time she does speak, it's 130 00:09:39,196 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 1: always eloquent, thoughtful, direct, It's everything that you want as 131 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:46,276 Speaker 1: a journalist when you cover an athlete of her magnitude. 132 00:09:46,716 --> 00:09:49,436 Speaker 1: She was very eloquent on this subject. But yet we 133 00:09:49,516 --> 00:09:52,076 Speaker 1: have to remember she's twenty three years old. Her career 134 00:09:52,156 --> 00:09:55,036 Speaker 1: is like literally just taking off. She's the highest pay 135 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:57,556 Speaker 1: female athlete in all of sports. This comes with a 136 00:09:57,556 --> 00:10:00,116 Speaker 1: lot of pressure, a lot of expectations, and at the 137 00:10:00,156 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: same time as she is coming into her own As 138 00:10:02,036 --> 00:10:05,476 Speaker 1: a tennis player, she has the double duty of having 139 00:10:05,796 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: the unfortunate task of unseating her iconic hero, which is 140 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 1: Serena Williams. I think back to twenty eighteen when she 141 00:10:13,636 --> 00:10:16,196 Speaker 1: beat Serena in the US Open for her first major title, 142 00:10:16,556 --> 00:10:20,036 Speaker 1: and the crowd booed her, and she revealed in the 143 00:10:20,116 --> 00:10:22,396 Speaker 1: last couple of weeks that that was a major source 144 00:10:22,396 --> 00:10:25,076 Speaker 1: of the depression and anxiety that she's felt. So there's 145 00:10:25,116 --> 00:10:27,516 Speaker 1: one part of this as a mental health conversation, and 146 00:10:27,596 --> 00:10:31,316 Speaker 1: it's our responsibility as sports journalists to put this into context. 147 00:10:31,756 --> 00:10:34,996 Speaker 1: Then the other part becomes about athletes in their own agency, 148 00:10:35,196 --> 00:10:40,236 Speaker 1: and given Naomi's financial capabilities, the leverage that she has 149 00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:44,396 Speaker 1: both socially culturally in her sport, I think that saying 150 00:10:44,436 --> 00:10:46,876 Speaker 1: that she not only would have to face a fifteen 151 00:10:46,916 --> 00:10:50,396 Speaker 1: thousand dollars fine, but she also would face maybe being 152 00:10:50,516 --> 00:10:54,036 Speaker 1: excluded from future majors if she did not adhere to 153 00:10:54,076 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 1: their media policy was one of the dumbest things I've 154 00:10:57,596 --> 00:11:01,116 Speaker 1: ever seen in sports, especially considering this as someone who 155 00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 1: is a jewel in your sport, who continues to drive 156 00:11:05,036 --> 00:11:10,316 Speaker 1: popularity and drive eyeballs and viewership and fans, both long 157 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 1: standing fans and new casual fans who just really like her, 158 00:11:14,116 --> 00:11:17,916 Speaker 1: and you alienate her. If you're an official with the 159 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:20,836 Speaker 1: French Open, what's better this week to have Naomi Osaka 160 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:22,956 Speaker 1: in the tournament or out of it? I'm gonna say 161 00:11:22,956 --> 00:11:25,836 Speaker 1: in it. So this was just a really bad play 162 00:11:25,916 --> 00:11:29,796 Speaker 1: on their part. Consider that playing time and money have 163 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:31,996 Speaker 1: always been two things that they have used to try 164 00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:35,796 Speaker 1: to quote unquote keep athletes a line, especially black athletes 165 00:11:35,796 --> 00:11:40,316 Speaker 1: and especially black women. Her withdrawing from that tournament said 166 00:11:40,356 --> 00:11:42,436 Speaker 1: a lot about who she is as a person and 167 00:11:42,476 --> 00:11:45,156 Speaker 1: a lot about for that matter, that she values her 168 00:11:45,196 --> 00:11:49,156 Speaker 1: piece more than performance. So good for Naomi Osaka. I 169 00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:51,516 Speaker 1: think as a media member, we do really have to 170 00:11:51,556 --> 00:11:55,356 Speaker 1: think about our approach. You are two words that I 171 00:11:55,436 --> 00:11:58,436 Speaker 1: wish somebody would have told a French Open official pool 172 00:11:58,476 --> 00:12:00,476 Speaker 1: reporter use them all the time in the White House, 173 00:12:00,796 --> 00:12:02,596 Speaker 1: could have used one with her. Maybe that would have 174 00:12:02,596 --> 00:12:06,316 Speaker 1: been a very viable solution. Indeed, and one of my 175 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:13,836 Speaker 1: first reactions when I heard the response that basically these athletes, 176 00:12:14,116 --> 00:12:17,036 Speaker 1: as I knew across sports a more or less required 177 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:20,276 Speaker 1: to talk to the media was why aren't our elected 178 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:24,796 Speaker 1: officials required to talk to the media. Why is it 179 00:12:24,876 --> 00:12:27,916 Speaker 1: that we have athletes who are required to talk to 180 00:12:27,916 --> 00:12:30,236 Speaker 1: me and people rally around it and say, oh, it's important, 181 00:12:30,236 --> 00:12:32,116 Speaker 1: it's part of the game, it's part of the sport. 182 00:12:32,836 --> 00:12:35,596 Speaker 1: But we have elected officials, even during a pandemic, can 183 00:12:35,676 --> 00:12:39,596 Speaker 1: go months without talking to the media. How does that happen? 184 00:12:40,436 --> 00:12:44,196 Speaker 1: It tells a lot about our priorities. Right. What people 185 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:48,436 Speaker 1: have to understand is that there is a I know 186 00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:50,556 Speaker 1: this is no shock to you, but there's money involved 187 00:12:50,596 --> 00:12:53,316 Speaker 1: when it comes to these press conferences. Of course, there 188 00:12:53,396 --> 00:12:56,996 Speaker 1: is a logistical component to this that is workable for 189 00:12:57,116 --> 00:13:01,276 Speaker 1: both athlete organization or sport they represent and journalists. The 190 00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:04,316 Speaker 1: other part is that sometimes if you're watching a press conference, 191 00:13:04,356 --> 00:13:06,476 Speaker 1: I want people to pay attention to the banner that 192 00:13:06,516 --> 00:13:08,836 Speaker 1: it's usually behind the athlete that's there talking. Or look 193 00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:11,756 Speaker 1: at the table. You usually see a company's name, right, 194 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 1: You usually see some kind of positive right right here. 195 00:13:16,396 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: That space ain't free and those okay, so that that 196 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:24,276 Speaker 1: company or that business or that sport can get prime 197 00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:26,756 Speaker 1: time placement. Because if it gets pn US to run 198 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:28,876 Speaker 1: a clip of this press conference, guess what you get 199 00:13:28,916 --> 00:13:32,556 Speaker 1: to see? That it's sponsored by lumberjack, okay, like you 200 00:13:32,636 --> 00:13:35,516 Speaker 1: see it, and then it's growing and expanding the reach 201 00:13:35,556 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 1: of the sport. And the way that you do that 202 00:13:37,876 --> 00:13:40,716 Speaker 1: is that you make the athletes accessible. You get them 203 00:13:40,716 --> 00:13:43,396 Speaker 1: written about, you getting them talked about. For journalists, they're 204 00:13:43,476 --> 00:13:46,836 Speaker 1: very useful. I've spent twenty years now in sports journalism, 205 00:13:46,996 --> 00:13:49,836 Speaker 1: and so I think what you brought up is a 206 00:13:49,996 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 1: very important point. I think there's some debate or some 207 00:13:52,716 --> 00:13:55,436 Speaker 1: discussion at least about whether or not making the mandatory. 208 00:13:55,636 --> 00:13:58,636 Speaker 1: It's perhaps sending the wrong message, but it does say 209 00:13:58,676 --> 00:14:02,676 Speaker 1: something that we expect our professional athletes to answer to 210 00:14:02,756 --> 00:14:06,276 Speaker 1: their performances, but we do not expect take Cruise to 211 00:14:06,276 --> 00:14:09,036 Speaker 1: answer why he's often can't cooled while his constituents are 212 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:12,836 Speaker 1: literally freezing to death. The government, which we pay with 213 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:16,916 Speaker 1: our tax dollars, is able to avoid our scrutiny as 214 00:14:16,916 --> 00:14:20,996 Speaker 1: well as our questions, and we're unable as a citizens 215 00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:24,916 Speaker 1: ry to hold them accountable other than through journalists. So 216 00:14:25,476 --> 00:14:28,876 Speaker 1: there's something kind of bizarre about that culture, especially when 217 00:14:28,876 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 1: you consider that other entertainers and sports is entertainment, they 218 00:14:33,796 --> 00:14:36,356 Speaker 1: don't have to make themselves available in the same way. 219 00:14:37,356 --> 00:14:39,756 Speaker 1: How much of that do you think has to do 220 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 1: with sport, particularly the major moneymaking sports, being so racialized, 221 00:14:45,436 --> 00:14:48,636 Speaker 1: so we're really talking about black men and women oftentimes 222 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:54,036 Speaker 1: and requiring on mandating them to do something. Of course, 223 00:14:54,076 --> 00:14:57,396 Speaker 1: as you know, many journalists and writers who've written at 224 00:14:57,396 --> 00:15:01,276 Speaker 1: the intersection of race and sport have compared the relationship 225 00:15:01,396 --> 00:15:06,436 Speaker 1: between the way society understands and looks at black athletes 226 00:15:07,116 --> 00:15:09,676 Speaker 1: and the way in which they have looked at other 227 00:15:09,676 --> 00:15:13,996 Speaker 1: people they want to control and dominate. There's this almost 228 00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 1: inability to imagine a Naomi or soccer with agency for 229 00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:21,556 Speaker 1: so many people. Yeah, black athletes in particular, the majority 230 00:15:21,596 --> 00:15:24,236 Speaker 1: of their careers are covered by white people, white men 231 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 1: who are creating narratives about them, who are culturally disconnected 232 00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:33,436 Speaker 1: from them, who do not understand some of the other 233 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:37,036 Speaker 1: racialized issues around sports and can see and report on 234 00:15:37,116 --> 00:15:41,076 Speaker 1: them through that context. We've had this conversation for my 235 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:45,916 Speaker 1: entire career about the utterly embarrassing lack of representation in 236 00:15:46,156 --> 00:15:50,596 Speaker 1: sports media. To give people an idea, even now twenty 237 00:15:50,676 --> 00:15:54,036 Speaker 1: twenty one, roughly eighty percent of sports reporters in the 238 00:15:54,076 --> 00:15:56,636 Speaker 1: US are white men. It's the same when it comes 239 00:15:56,636 --> 00:16:00,756 Speaker 1: to executive leadership at sports media organizations. It's the same. 240 00:16:00,796 --> 00:16:03,276 Speaker 1: When it comes to columnists, it's the same, up and 241 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:06,596 Speaker 1: down the line. I was a sports columnist in daily 242 00:16:06,596 --> 00:16:09,436 Speaker 1: newspapers in two thousand and five. That was my last 243 00:16:09,476 --> 00:16:12,436 Speaker 1: year as the columnists had a daily newspaper, and at 244 00:16:12,476 --> 00:16:17,236 Speaker 1: that moment, I was the only black female sports columnist 245 00:16:17,316 --> 00:16:20,356 Speaker 1: in North America, the only one out of four hundred 246 00:16:20,356 --> 00:16:24,796 Speaker 1: and five daily newspapers that is shameful. Shameful is not 247 00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:26,516 Speaker 1: even the word I want to use a customer, but 248 00:16:26,556 --> 00:16:27,996 Speaker 1: I want to impress you, so I won't use it. 249 00:16:29,596 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 1: And so that's pretty bad, and not a whole lot 250 00:16:32,636 --> 00:16:36,196 Speaker 1: is changed. I think back to Colin Kaepernick when he 251 00:16:36,316 --> 00:16:38,596 Speaker 1: began his protest in twenty sixteen, and look at how 252 00:16:38,636 --> 00:16:42,396 Speaker 1: that was covered. Now, the person who originally wrote about 253 00:16:42,596 --> 00:16:44,956 Speaker 1: why Colin Kaepernick was doing it and what he was 254 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:48,516 Speaker 1: doing was a black reporter who noticed that he was 255 00:16:48,836 --> 00:16:53,156 Speaker 1: sitting down on the bench. And after that you saw 256 00:16:53,236 --> 00:16:56,356 Speaker 1: a media narrative, mostly again framed by white reporters and 257 00:16:56,356 --> 00:17:01,076 Speaker 1: analysts and commentators, that was so disconnected to what Colin 258 00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:05,036 Speaker 1: Kaepernick was actually talking about. You know, I didn't see 259 00:17:05,036 --> 00:17:09,516 Speaker 1: a whole lot of people in sports commentary delving deeper 260 00:17:09,556 --> 00:17:12,676 Speaker 1: into the issues of police brutality or trying to understand 261 00:17:12,956 --> 00:17:17,756 Speaker 1: the message that Colin Kaefernick was trying to send. And certainly, 262 00:17:17,796 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 1: once the conversation got hijacked and became about patriotism, a 263 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 1: modern people in sports did not resist that false narrative, 264 00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:28,476 Speaker 1: and as a result, or at least contributing factor, I 265 00:17:28,476 --> 00:17:32,356 Speaker 1: should say, Colin Kaefernick got cast as a villain pretty early, 266 00:17:32,396 --> 00:17:36,796 Speaker 1: pretty quickly, and with resounding damnation. This is the danger 267 00:17:36,876 --> 00:17:39,276 Speaker 1: when you have a media that is as white as 268 00:17:39,316 --> 00:17:43,796 Speaker 1: sports media still is. When these narratives are formed about 269 00:17:43,916 --> 00:17:46,956 Speaker 1: black athletes, they tend to stick. And when it comes 270 00:17:46,996 --> 00:17:49,396 Speaker 1: to women of color, and it comes to black women, 271 00:17:50,196 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 1: much like it is in the rest of our society, 272 00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 1: there's an rature, there's a depiction. I mean, I think 273 00:17:55,596 --> 00:17:59,916 Speaker 1: about how often and how regularly that Serena Williams throughout 274 00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:05,116 Speaker 1: her career was picked it as aggressive, confrontational. She has 275 00:18:05,156 --> 00:18:07,516 Speaker 1: a competitive fire that is on the same level of 276 00:18:07,556 --> 00:18:10,676 Speaker 1: Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, many of the great athletes 277 00:18:10,876 --> 00:18:13,476 Speaker 1: of our time. But a lot of times she was 278 00:18:14,076 --> 00:18:18,516 Speaker 1: called rude or impolite or doing something that was offensive 279 00:18:18,636 --> 00:18:21,756 Speaker 1: to tennis and not to mention the body shaving that 280 00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:24,836 Speaker 1: Serena went through in her career. So Naomi Otaka is 281 00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:28,476 Speaker 1: getting a firsthand look at this firsthand look, and they're 282 00:18:28,476 --> 00:18:32,236 Speaker 1: shocked that she would feel uneasy and anxious when she's 283 00:18:32,276 --> 00:18:35,556 Speaker 1: around the same media that is very quick to paint 284 00:18:35,676 --> 00:18:39,996 Speaker 1: Serena Williams as some kind of monstrous villain. I think 285 00:18:40,076 --> 00:18:43,596 Speaker 1: this generation of athletes has a new sense of empowerment 286 00:18:43,876 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 1: and a more heightened sense of agency, and that social 287 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 1: media has allowed them to directly reach who they want 288 00:18:50,196 --> 00:18:54,556 Speaker 1: to reach. They want to create and craft their own narratives. 289 00:18:54,956 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: They're tired of depending on the media to do it, 290 00:18:57,276 --> 00:19:06,876 Speaker 1: and certainly to do it responsibly. Hey, what's up for everybody? 291 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:09,796 Speaker 1: This is Jamel Hill and you're listening to be anti 292 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:19,316 Speaker 1: racist with doctor Ebram X Kidney. I'm happy we're talking 293 00:19:19,356 --> 00:19:23,476 Speaker 1: about this heightened agency to use that term of athletes 294 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:29,156 Speaker 1: today because even you've written about just how to think 295 00:19:29,196 --> 00:19:33,796 Speaker 1: about ways to transform sports. I can remember back to 296 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:37,196 Speaker 1: a piece that I read calling for black athletes to 297 00:19:37,276 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 1: return to HBCUs and being an alum of Florida Agricultural 298 00:19:42,276 --> 00:19:47,916 Speaker 1: and Mechanical University, no doubt, no doubt, and you know, 299 00:19:47,996 --> 00:19:52,836 Speaker 1: of course, knowing that in the nineteen sixties, nineteen fifties, 300 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:57,076 Speaker 1: many of these top athletes, particularly from the state of Florida, 301 00:19:57,476 --> 00:20:00,356 Speaker 1: particularly in football, were going to FAM you just as 302 00:20:00,396 --> 00:20:03,596 Speaker 1: in Louisiana they were going to Grambling. But now, of 303 00:20:03,596 --> 00:20:07,196 Speaker 1: course they're going to UF and LSU and as a result, 304 00:20:07,396 --> 00:20:10,116 Speaker 1: the money is following them or money is being made. 305 00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:13,676 Speaker 1: If you can talk about potentially high profile and highly 306 00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:17,996 Speaker 1: recruited black athletes returning to HBCUs and what that would 307 00:20:18,036 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 1: do in terms of the changing of sports and even 308 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:23,516 Speaker 1: the changing of this country. Well, I think it's important 309 00:20:23,916 --> 00:20:27,556 Speaker 1: that we start the conversation realizing what they used to 310 00:20:27,596 --> 00:20:30,636 Speaker 1: think amateur athletics, which is when it started, that's what 311 00:20:30,676 --> 00:20:33,276 Speaker 1: it actually was. It was amateur what they thought it 312 00:20:33,356 --> 00:20:36,676 Speaker 1: was going to be, And nobody thought it was going 313 00:20:36,716 --> 00:20:42,356 Speaker 1: to become a billion dollar enterprise, not even HBCUs. Yeah, HBCUs, 314 00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:45,716 Speaker 1: I don't think they not only couldn't anticipate what all 315 00:20:45,956 --> 00:20:49,796 Speaker 1: college football, college basketball was about to be, they also 316 00:20:50,356 --> 00:20:53,316 Speaker 1: to some degree didn't think that white people would ever 317 00:20:53,476 --> 00:20:57,556 Speaker 1: come up with the idea of integrating because why would 318 00:20:57,556 --> 00:20:59,436 Speaker 1: they right, why would they ever think that they would 319 00:20:59,476 --> 00:21:01,956 Speaker 1: considering the treatment that they had already faced, and the 320 00:21:02,076 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 1: whole reason we have HBCUs being because white institutions were 321 00:21:07,396 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 1: not allowing black people in them. It was our only 322 00:21:10,316 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: resource in terms of higher education. Of course, once you 323 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:20,236 Speaker 1: saw black athletes trickling in slowly to these predominantly white institutions, 324 00:21:20,716 --> 00:21:23,436 Speaker 1: people point to when I believe it was Alabama play 325 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:26,356 Speaker 1: usc Bear Bryant, and I can't remember his name, but 326 00:21:26,396 --> 00:21:28,596 Speaker 1: I think it was a black running back. It was 327 00:21:28,636 --> 00:21:32,876 Speaker 1: either running back or a quarterback who just demolished Alabama. 328 00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:37,636 Speaker 1: And after that moment, Bear Bryant understood, if we are 329 00:21:37,716 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 1: to survive as Alabama, we have to have black athletes, 330 00:21:41,636 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 1: and so they aggressively began to shepherd all the black athletes. 331 00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:48,396 Speaker 1: You know, this is another side of our conversation I'm 332 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:52,396 Speaker 1: sure you've had about the negative aspects of integration. You know, 333 00:21:52,436 --> 00:21:55,036 Speaker 1: we wanted equality, but I don't think we wanted to 334 00:21:55,076 --> 00:21:58,276 Speaker 1: be robbed of our greatest resources. And that's what happened. 335 00:21:58,636 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 1: And those great resources were these incredibly skilled, talented, highly 336 00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:07,996 Speaker 1: capable college athletes that suddenly stopped going to grand blame 337 00:22:08,316 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 1: Sam You, Hampton and Howard and began to go to 338 00:22:13,236 --> 00:22:18,396 Speaker 1: white institutions because they of course had more financial resources 339 00:22:18,396 --> 00:22:21,276 Speaker 1: than HBCUs, as they had from the very beginning, they 340 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:24,396 Speaker 1: had more to offer. And you look up in twenty 341 00:22:24,436 --> 00:22:27,756 Speaker 1: twenty one and black athletes have built an empire that 342 00:22:27,916 --> 00:22:32,756 Speaker 1: is worth billions off their free labors, and thinking about 343 00:22:32,796 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 1: how that money has been used to create a level 344 00:22:37,196 --> 00:22:41,436 Speaker 1: of financial success at these universities that people never thought 345 00:22:41,596 --> 00:22:45,556 Speaker 1: was possible. I wondered what would happen if some of 346 00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:49,076 Speaker 1: our best resources, being the athletic community that we have, 347 00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:53,916 Speaker 1: begun to take their talents to HBCUs and what that 348 00:22:53,996 --> 00:22:58,116 Speaker 1: might look like for these colleges and universities who certainly 349 00:22:58,316 --> 00:23:01,436 Speaker 1: have been able to stay afloat. Some are thriving. But 350 00:23:01,556 --> 00:23:04,636 Speaker 1: when you think about the fact that the biggest HBCU 351 00:23:05,316 --> 00:23:08,716 Speaker 1: athletic budget might be about thirty or forty million dollars, 352 00:23:08,756 --> 00:23:13,316 Speaker 1: and the fact that Texas' athletic budget is two hundred million, 353 00:23:13,676 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 1: Clipson has a fifty five million dollars locker room, a 354 00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:20,596 Speaker 1: locker room. Alabama has a sixty five million dollar locker 355 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:24,956 Speaker 1: room that comes with a barber shop. Okay, this is 356 00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:29,236 Speaker 1: what is being built because of the success of black athletes, 357 00:23:29,316 --> 00:23:34,676 Speaker 1: and so thinking about the kind of endowments that HBCUs 358 00:23:34,756 --> 00:23:36,716 Speaker 1: have and what that looks like compared to a dude 359 00:23:36,876 --> 00:23:39,676 Speaker 1: or North Carolina. It's not even close. I mean, Howard 360 00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:43,076 Speaker 1: probably is the biggest endowment out of HBCUs, and it 361 00:23:43,236 --> 00:23:45,476 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't even be in the top one fifty or 362 00:23:45,516 --> 00:23:49,676 Speaker 1: perdomin million white institution. It's not even a billion. No, 363 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:51,756 Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't think it would. I would taking 364 00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:54,556 Speaker 1: a while stamp, but I was like, I'm guessing it wasn't. 365 00:23:54,596 --> 00:23:59,476 Speaker 1: And so the sports economy has been major for higher education, 366 00:24:00,116 --> 00:24:03,916 Speaker 1: and it feels like, especially with the political climate in 367 00:24:03,996 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 1: this country, the grievance climate in this country, and how 368 00:24:07,916 --> 00:24:11,876 Speaker 1: racially polar I think things are, that it definitely feels 369 00:24:11,956 --> 00:24:14,956 Speaker 1: more so than I've seen probably in my career, that 370 00:24:15,036 --> 00:24:19,876 Speaker 1: more black high school athletes are considering HBCUs. But there's 371 00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:22,636 Speaker 1: a lot of us that don't know that HBCU history, 372 00:24:22,676 --> 00:24:25,596 Speaker 1: are not as well versed. And I get it. I 373 00:24:25,676 --> 00:24:28,036 Speaker 1: understand why the players want to go to Texas A 374 00:24:28,076 --> 00:24:30,836 Speaker 1: and M or the University of Texas rather than Prayer 375 00:24:30,956 --> 00:24:35,116 Speaker 1: View because the facilities are completely different. But I do 376 00:24:35,196 --> 00:24:38,276 Speaker 1: think that at this time in our community that it's 377 00:24:38,316 --> 00:24:43,116 Speaker 1: important that they really consider HBCUs, especially when they start 378 00:24:43,116 --> 00:24:45,476 Speaker 1: to think about how much money that they are willingly 379 00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:49,116 Speaker 1: making for other schools. So it was just an important 380 00:24:49,116 --> 00:24:51,236 Speaker 1: issue I wanted to raise and the first one to 381 00:24:51,276 --> 00:24:53,916 Speaker 1: think about it. But I thought that laying it out 382 00:24:53,956 --> 00:24:57,876 Speaker 1: there would be something that people could really critically think about, 383 00:24:58,476 --> 00:25:01,676 Speaker 1: critically thinking about it even more, especially when we think 384 00:25:01,676 --> 00:25:08,396 Speaker 1: of SEC schools and ACC schools like Clemson and Florida State, 385 00:25:08,556 --> 00:25:14,076 Speaker 1: and how these universities private and public are sitting in 386 00:25:14,156 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 1: states where currently black people are facing this wave of 387 00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:24,236 Speaker 1: voters depression as our people of color more broadly, and 388 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:28,876 Speaker 1: you have many of the constituents voters in those states 389 00:25:28,876 --> 00:25:32,916 Speaker 1: electing officials who are supporting those types of policies, just 390 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:38,676 Speaker 1: as they themselves are fans of these teams, and so 391 00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,236 Speaker 1: on the one hand, they root for black people when 392 00:25:41,236 --> 00:25:46,116 Speaker 1: they run, but then of course they're simultaneously running away 393 00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:49,796 Speaker 1: from the rights of those very people. And this is normal, right, 394 00:25:49,836 --> 00:25:52,996 Speaker 1: This is I mean, this is so normal. And then 395 00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 1: I mean to break it down even more, Jamil, one 396 00:25:55,716 --> 00:26:00,756 Speaker 1: of those very campuses, you have football coaches, basketball coaches 397 00:26:00,796 --> 00:26:04,756 Speaker 1: who get fired if they do not recruit the top 398 00:26:04,996 --> 00:26:09,436 Speaker 1: black athletes. And right down the road you have partment 399 00:26:09,516 --> 00:26:13,196 Speaker 1: chairs in deans and provosts who don't have a mandate 400 00:26:13,236 --> 00:26:17,196 Speaker 1: to recruit the top black professors can say, oh, they 401 00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:19,836 Speaker 1: just didn't want to come here. I tried, but the 402 00:26:19,876 --> 00:26:23,636 Speaker 1: pool wasn't diverse. And so I think, to me, these 403 00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:29,636 Speaker 1: just glaring contradictions show themselves most obviously in the Southeast, 404 00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:33,356 Speaker 1: where we have the greatest populations of black people, but 405 00:26:33,396 --> 00:26:36,956 Speaker 1: then also you have the greatest assaults on the lives 406 00:26:36,996 --> 00:26:39,956 Speaker 1: of black people, particularly at an electoral level right now. 407 00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:43,916 Speaker 1: It reminds me of I don't know who to specifically 408 00:26:43,996 --> 00:26:46,196 Speaker 1: give credit for, but it's a phrase that I've heard 409 00:26:46,236 --> 00:26:48,796 Speaker 1: a few times, and especially in the last few years, 410 00:26:49,236 --> 00:26:53,276 Speaker 1: is if only white people love black people as much 411 00:26:53,276 --> 00:26:57,116 Speaker 1: as they love black culture. In this country, we don't 412 00:26:57,156 --> 00:26:59,796 Speaker 1: produce a whole lot anymore, but the one thing that 413 00:26:59,836 --> 00:27:02,996 Speaker 1: we still produce is pop culture is entertainment, right, and 414 00:27:03,036 --> 00:27:07,276 Speaker 1: I would put sports in that crock pot, and our fixation, 415 00:27:07,636 --> 00:27:12,156 Speaker 1: our dependency on sports is pretty over the top, and 416 00:27:12,556 --> 00:27:19,316 Speaker 1: it is constantly both a contradiction utter hypocrisy that on 417 00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:24,676 Speaker 1: one end you will hear and see many in leadership 418 00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:29,196 Speaker 1: who constantly undermine the progress of black people. At the 419 00:27:29,276 --> 00:27:33,996 Speaker 1: same time, do everything possible to make sure black production 420 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 1: in athletics is unfettered, is untethered, is unbothered, if you will. 421 00:27:40,836 --> 00:27:44,396 Speaker 1: And a hope of mine is that athletes and sports 422 00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:47,636 Speaker 1: figures who have the ability to do so will use 423 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:53,316 Speaker 1: that dependency to help progress along. I'm thinking of the 424 00:27:53,436 --> 00:27:56,996 Speaker 1: young man whose name hopefully will come to me, who 425 00:27:57,036 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: I believe is that Mississippi State, if I'm not mistaken. 426 00:28:00,476 --> 00:28:03,716 Speaker 1: Last year he was. And as we're having this conversation 427 00:28:03,756 --> 00:28:07,316 Speaker 1: in this country, this quote unquote racial reckoning. So I'm 428 00:28:07,316 --> 00:28:10,596 Speaker 1: not sure what was actually reckon it, but all right, 429 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:14,356 Speaker 1: i'll call iterate the reckoning. But the Mississippi state flag, 430 00:28:14,436 --> 00:28:18,076 Speaker 1: which diod for over a hundred years, had a Confederate emblem, 431 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:20,836 Speaker 1: and this particular athlete, who happened to be the leading 432 00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:25,996 Speaker 1: rusher in the SEC tweeted that he wasn't gonna represent 433 00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:27,516 Speaker 1: the state anymore. And I don't know if that meant 434 00:28:27,596 --> 00:28:29,156 Speaker 1: he was gonna leave. I don't know what it meant 435 00:28:29,236 --> 00:28:32,396 Speaker 1: he was gonna do unless they changed that flag. And 436 00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:35,836 Speaker 1: the governor of Mississippi, who had been playing both sides 437 00:28:35,836 --> 00:28:37,636 Speaker 1: against the middle of him and in halln not really 438 00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:40,516 Speaker 1: wanted to change anything. What do you know, within weeks 439 00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:45,956 Speaker 1: it changed, and they made a collective decision to redesign 440 00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:50,076 Speaker 1: a new state flag and also to ban Confederate symbol, 441 00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:55,116 Speaker 1: and also to move forward in what had been a 442 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:59,036 Speaker 1: conversation that had been going absolutely nowhere not at the 443 00:28:59,076 --> 00:29:01,396 Speaker 1: same time. And I don't know how many people are 444 00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:04,516 Speaker 1: aware of this, but there's a water crisis that was 445 00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:08,156 Speaker 1: going on in Jackson, Mississippi. Yeah, and Jackson that was 446 00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:12,276 Speaker 1: on the level of Flint, and this same governor, Governor 447 00:29:12,316 --> 00:29:15,236 Speaker 1: Reeves pretty much told Jackson get in it on your 448 00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:20,316 Speaker 1: own right, abandoned people about a issue of clean water, 449 00:29:20,836 --> 00:29:26,156 Speaker 1: and was very obstinate, insulting, racist in his response to Jackson. 450 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:28,196 Speaker 1: But he didn't want to lose that running back, so 451 00:29:28,276 --> 00:29:31,716 Speaker 1: he changed that flag. And we have seen this going 452 00:29:31,756 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 1: back to slavery, as everything often does. Predie Douglas even 453 00:29:35,916 --> 00:29:39,716 Speaker 1: talked about this before witnessing the role of sport and 454 00:29:39,756 --> 00:29:43,596 Speaker 1: about how those who were black athletes during slavery, being 455 00:29:43,716 --> 00:29:46,716 Speaker 1: in boxing or wrestling or other forms of sports, that 456 00:29:46,756 --> 00:29:50,676 Speaker 1: they would do entertainment for the white masses, how they 457 00:29:50,716 --> 00:29:53,356 Speaker 1: made sure to segregate them and treat them differently than 458 00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:55,756 Speaker 1: to create a level of division in the ranks just 459 00:29:55,836 --> 00:30:00,356 Speaker 1: based off treatment. Even then, those were those natural hypocrisies 460 00:30:00,396 --> 00:30:04,516 Speaker 1: of loving to see the brilliance of black people, but 461 00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:07,596 Speaker 1: at the same time never wanted to see the progress 462 00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:11,036 Speaker 1: of black people, not on a social or political level. 463 00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:13,796 Speaker 1: What I like about what's happening now is I don't 464 00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:16,356 Speaker 1: think today's athletes are in a go along to get 465 00:30:16,396 --> 00:30:19,996 Speaker 1: along mood. We saw it in the bubble when they 466 00:30:20,036 --> 00:30:26,756 Speaker 1: were prepared to stop playing after what happened to Jacob Blake. Yes, 467 00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:29,516 Speaker 1: and we see the w NBA and one of the 468 00:30:29,556 --> 00:30:33,476 Speaker 1: greatest acts of political courage in sports. They changed the 469 00:30:33,516 --> 00:30:36,436 Speaker 1: whole complexion of the political landscape when they got Kelly 470 00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:41,076 Speaker 1: Lefler up out of Georgia. Right, their boss who signs paychecks. 471 00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:44,196 Speaker 1: This is a team owner, right, This is not just 472 00:30:44,396 --> 00:30:47,796 Speaker 1: some executive. This is somebody who is writing their paychecks. 473 00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:50,556 Speaker 1: And they said, you know what, Reverend Raphael Warnock, that's 474 00:30:50,556 --> 00:30:54,436 Speaker 1: what we got. So that is what I'm saying, is like, 475 00:30:54,636 --> 00:30:59,396 Speaker 1: I think that there is a level of resilience and 476 00:30:59,476 --> 00:31:05,556 Speaker 1: just downright progressive stubbornness that have swept through these athletes. 477 00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:08,876 Speaker 1: They're not having it anymore. They're just not for those 478 00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:13,796 Speaker 1: of us who are witnessing the increased amount of activism 479 00:31:13,796 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 1: and resistance from athletes and who are inspired by them, 480 00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:22,356 Speaker 1: inspired by what those NBA players did, inspired by Colin, 481 00:31:23,716 --> 00:31:29,476 Speaker 1: and they're interested in supporting the efforts to end the 482 00:31:29,516 --> 00:31:33,836 Speaker 1: exploitation of black athletes in college sports, who are interested 483 00:31:33,876 --> 00:31:37,476 Speaker 1: in figuring out ways to prevent certain members of the 484 00:31:37,556 --> 00:31:41,596 Speaker 1: media from demeaning and creating racist narratives. You know, people 485 00:31:41,996 --> 00:31:44,916 Speaker 1: who want to do something and want to play a part. 486 00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:47,516 Speaker 1: Where can they begin? What should they be thinking? Well, 487 00:31:47,556 --> 00:31:51,236 Speaker 1: I do think that sports fans have to demand more. 488 00:31:51,476 --> 00:31:54,236 Speaker 1: They can't always be on the athletes. I think a 489 00:31:54,316 --> 00:31:57,836 Speaker 1: great mistake that was made with Colin Kaepernick is that 490 00:31:57,956 --> 00:32:01,636 Speaker 1: the other players didn't rally to support him, not soon enough. 491 00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:06,356 Speaker 1: You know, whether you agreed with his method or if 492 00:32:06,356 --> 00:32:10,276 Speaker 1: you have some issues, okay, that's fine. But the general 493 00:32:10,356 --> 00:32:13,356 Speaker 1: idea that your career could be ruined, that you could 494 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:17,396 Speaker 1: be blackballed because you were taking a stands for humanity 495 00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:19,876 Speaker 1: is something that should not have set right with any 496 00:32:19,916 --> 00:32:23,236 Speaker 1: player in the NFL. I think they missed the opportunity there, 497 00:32:23,716 --> 00:32:26,436 Speaker 1: and I also think for a lot of fans to 498 00:32:26,556 --> 00:32:30,116 Speaker 1: support a Colin Kaepernick. There is an opportunity there for them. 499 00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:33,476 Speaker 1: You vote which you are remote. You know I love football, 500 00:32:33,636 --> 00:32:36,156 Speaker 1: college ampro. You know I love sports as a whole. 501 00:32:36,316 --> 00:32:39,116 Speaker 1: But in some cases we got to ask ourselves to 502 00:32:39,156 --> 00:32:42,436 Speaker 1: what extent because the owners and those gatekeepers in these 503 00:32:42,476 --> 00:32:45,396 Speaker 1: sports are going to use your love of something, something 504 00:32:45,436 --> 00:32:48,156 Speaker 1: you think you can't live without, against you. And so 505 00:32:48,716 --> 00:32:52,516 Speaker 1: I do think that the fans and viewers can be 506 00:32:53,316 --> 00:32:58,436 Speaker 1: very key in holding these leads accountable. The challenge also 507 00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:02,516 Speaker 1: is definitely on the media because what happens, especially now 508 00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:06,756 Speaker 1: that we have a shrinking media landscape, you have networks 509 00:33:06,796 --> 00:33:11,116 Speaker 1: that are in business arrangements with all the professional sports. 510 00:33:11,476 --> 00:33:16,396 Speaker 1: The ability to hold these leagues accountable is often non existent. 511 00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:19,476 Speaker 1: And as long as they're kind of able to get 512 00:33:19,516 --> 00:33:21,596 Speaker 1: away with all of this, they're going to do it. 513 00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:24,636 Speaker 1: I mean college sports is a really, really good example 514 00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:27,396 Speaker 1: in that years from now, when this house of cards 515 00:33:27,396 --> 00:33:31,356 Speaker 1: has fallen, if older people are displaying the even younger people, Yeah, 516 00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:33,956 Speaker 1: we used to have a college system where the athlete 517 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:36,196 Speaker 1: made billions of dollars that never got paid. They don't 518 00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:39,876 Speaker 1: look at us like we're crazy. I think it's incumbent 519 00:33:40,076 --> 00:33:44,316 Speaker 1: on us to keep critically asking these questions and not 520 00:33:44,476 --> 00:33:49,236 Speaker 1: creating systems where they're able to outright exploit people. The 521 00:33:49,356 --> 00:33:52,196 Speaker 1: NFL when you look at how far things have come, 522 00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:54,516 Speaker 1: and they are not perfect by any stretch when it 523 00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:58,436 Speaker 1: comes to head injuries and other advancements that have been 524 00:33:58,476 --> 00:34:01,156 Speaker 1: made and protecting their health and even on the money, 525 00:34:01,276 --> 00:34:05,556 Speaker 1: and so they still need to have fully guaranteed contracts 526 00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:09,556 Speaker 1: for everybody. That sport has come a long way, and 527 00:34:09,636 --> 00:34:11,636 Speaker 1: part of the reason they came a long way is 528 00:34:11,676 --> 00:34:14,836 Speaker 1: because I think both the players and the fans begin 529 00:34:14,916 --> 00:34:18,956 Speaker 1: to hold the league accountable. So I think those partnerships work. 530 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:22,676 Speaker 1: I want to see fans side more with players because 531 00:34:22,716 --> 00:34:27,876 Speaker 1: I don't think fans really understand that this is symbolic 532 00:34:28,196 --> 00:34:31,596 Speaker 1: of the working relationship in this country. Like we're a 533 00:34:31,636 --> 00:34:33,996 Speaker 1: country that has been able to make a lot of 534 00:34:34,036 --> 00:34:37,756 Speaker 1: employment advancements because of unions. You don't side with the 535 00:34:37,796 --> 00:34:41,036 Speaker 1: people who own Microsoft, you side with the workers. Part 536 00:34:41,076 --> 00:34:45,196 Speaker 1: of that racial dynamic that you've talked about is that, unfortunately, 537 00:34:45,276 --> 00:34:49,356 Speaker 1: because the most dominant in terms of popularity sports in 538 00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:53,796 Speaker 1: America are dominated by black athletes, that mainstream fans are 539 00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:57,596 Speaker 1: very quick to side with the billionaires over the players, 540 00:34:57,716 --> 00:35:00,636 Speaker 1: not understanding that they have far more in common with 541 00:35:00,716 --> 00:35:03,676 Speaker 1: them than they do some billionaire writing a check from 542 00:35:03,676 --> 00:35:06,116 Speaker 1: this guy. So sports fans have to get out of 543 00:35:06,116 --> 00:35:10,356 Speaker 1: this mindset of being so pro owner and pro sports socialism, 544 00:35:10,356 --> 00:35:13,516 Speaker 1: as I like to call it. You know, being upset 545 00:35:13,636 --> 00:35:15,996 Speaker 1: that a player is making one hundred million dollars, but 546 00:35:16,036 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 1: you're not upset that an owner is giving you to 547 00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:21,476 Speaker 1: pay for a ten billion dollars stadium. I don't understand it. 548 00:35:21,796 --> 00:35:23,596 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, I think there's a level of 549 00:35:23,596 --> 00:35:26,436 Speaker 1: accountability there that sometimes it's missing, and that's what I 550 00:35:26,476 --> 00:35:29,836 Speaker 1: think fans and players can bring to the tables, you know, 551 00:35:29,956 --> 00:35:34,756 Speaker 1: making sure that these systems are not allowed to go unchecked. Jamel, 552 00:35:35,076 --> 00:35:40,316 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen more and more athletes who expressed 553 00:35:40,396 --> 00:35:43,996 Speaker 1: interest in being owners or who actually are becoming owners. 554 00:35:44,796 --> 00:35:47,556 Speaker 1: And this makes me think about and correct me if 555 00:35:47,596 --> 00:35:49,796 Speaker 1: I'm wrong. The last time I believe it was the 556 00:35:49,916 --> 00:35:53,836 Speaker 1: NBA was in a lockout. Some of the players, like 557 00:35:53,876 --> 00:35:57,956 Speaker 1: I think Kevin Durant and others began organizing games in 558 00:35:58,196 --> 00:36:01,356 Speaker 1: high school gyms or college gyms, and then they became 559 00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:05,396 Speaker 1: talk of the players almost creating and running their own league, 560 00:36:05,516 --> 00:36:08,356 Speaker 1: and then there was all this blowback in which people 561 00:36:08,396 --> 00:36:10,716 Speaker 1: were like, oh, the players can't run their own league, 562 00:36:11,036 --> 00:36:13,596 Speaker 1: or there were all these demeaning words about the players. 563 00:36:13,636 --> 00:36:15,716 Speaker 1: I mean, I know you mentioned about the house of 564 00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:19,636 Speaker 1: cards falling in terms of college sports, but when it 565 00:36:19,676 --> 00:36:22,076 Speaker 1: comes to professional sports, do you think that that could 566 00:36:22,076 --> 00:36:24,156 Speaker 1: potentially be the future, and you think that could be 567 00:36:24,156 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 1: an anti racist future. It would be a great anti 568 00:36:26,716 --> 00:36:31,556 Speaker 1: racist future. But that's difficult. That's a difficult subject to 569 00:36:31,596 --> 00:36:36,076 Speaker 1: tackle because I do think it's so deeply entrenched the 570 00:36:36,116 --> 00:36:39,636 Speaker 1: way the system works now that it would be hard 571 00:36:39,716 --> 00:36:42,556 Speaker 1: to convince the players to do it, even though they could. 572 00:36:43,156 --> 00:36:47,836 Speaker 1: You know, overall, in sports, there is not the realization 573 00:36:47,996 --> 00:36:51,276 Speaker 1: that you would think among players them understanding you are 574 00:36:51,356 --> 00:36:54,636 Speaker 1: the product, you have all to say. So we're seeing 575 00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:58,556 Speaker 1: signs of that increasing awareness, but it's still increasing awareness 576 00:36:58,556 --> 00:37:01,916 Speaker 1: within a system that was only designed to exploit them. Yeah, 577 00:37:01,956 --> 00:37:05,596 Speaker 1: that's true. The NBA is a great example because I think, 578 00:37:05,996 --> 00:37:09,876 Speaker 1: especially with what Lebron James has come to me just 579 00:37:09,916 --> 00:37:13,356 Speaker 1: as a total humanitarian, it has changed all the power 580 00:37:13,436 --> 00:37:16,916 Speaker 1: dynamics in that sport. And I know that there's probably 581 00:37:16,916 --> 00:37:19,356 Speaker 1: a lot of NBA owners who don't appreciate it, but 582 00:37:19,996 --> 00:37:22,356 Speaker 1: I think the players have just become so much more savvay. 583 00:37:22,596 --> 00:37:25,556 Speaker 1: You know, they went back to work on the promise 584 00:37:25,676 --> 00:37:30,196 Speaker 1: that NBA owners would open their arenas as voting centers. Okay, 585 00:37:30,276 --> 00:37:32,236 Speaker 1: that's why they went back after Jacob Blake. That was 586 00:37:32,236 --> 00:37:34,636 Speaker 1: a big component and as you see, it was very 587 00:37:34,676 --> 00:37:37,636 Speaker 1: important that they did that. But I think they can 588 00:37:37,676 --> 00:37:42,236 Speaker 1: get even bolder, even more aggressive, not just demanding things 589 00:37:42,276 --> 00:37:46,396 Speaker 1: but creating things. I do think ownership is the next 590 00:37:46,436 --> 00:37:50,596 Speaker 1: path for the modern player, and it being all about ownership, 591 00:37:50,636 --> 00:37:53,276 Speaker 1: not just the ownership of a team, but ownership of 592 00:37:53,356 --> 00:37:57,116 Speaker 1: their talent, ownership of their stories. They're trying to own 593 00:37:57,276 --> 00:38:01,316 Speaker 1: every aspect of who they are because they're coming to 594 00:38:01,316 --> 00:38:04,756 Speaker 1: realize that they themselves are the Fortune five hundred company, 595 00:38:04,876 --> 00:38:07,636 Speaker 1: and so they're trying to make sure that they treat 596 00:38:07,676 --> 00:38:12,956 Speaker 1: themselves as such. But I think the way that things are, 597 00:38:13,236 --> 00:38:16,636 Speaker 1: it would just be hard to imagine. It's certainly not impossible, 598 00:38:16,956 --> 00:38:19,676 Speaker 1: but as always, you're going to need a courageous soul 599 00:38:19,836 --> 00:38:23,356 Speaker 1: or souls in this case to really try to make 600 00:38:23,396 --> 00:38:27,076 Speaker 1: something like that happen. I mean, just because it hasn't happened, 601 00:38:27,156 --> 00:38:29,596 Speaker 1: or maybe we can't imagine. It doesn't mean that it won't, 602 00:38:30,116 --> 00:38:32,276 Speaker 1: but I think we are definitely getting to a point 603 00:38:32,556 --> 00:38:36,156 Speaker 1: where at least the possibility of that will become stronger 604 00:38:36,316 --> 00:38:40,996 Speaker 1: as athletes continue to develop their own agency. It's so 605 00:38:41,076 --> 00:38:45,036 Speaker 1: much more about their ability that they're able to control 606 00:38:45,436 --> 00:38:49,876 Speaker 1: and draw revenue from than there was before. That they 607 00:38:49,916 --> 00:38:53,396 Speaker 1: have single handedly been able to put themselves in positions 608 00:38:53,516 --> 00:38:57,716 Speaker 1: to be empires onto themselves so collectively, I like to 609 00:38:57,716 --> 00:38:59,636 Speaker 1: see what they do with it, because they may get 610 00:38:59,636 --> 00:39:01,556 Speaker 1: to that point where they say, you know what, we 611 00:39:01,596 --> 00:39:04,796 Speaker 1: don't really need the NBA anymore, you know, maybe we 612 00:39:04,876 --> 00:39:08,436 Speaker 1: do our own things. Yes, I suspect that one of 613 00:39:08,476 --> 00:39:13,996 Speaker 1: the ways that which these new entities could become successful, 614 00:39:14,036 --> 00:39:17,076 Speaker 1: as if we as fans, those of us who are 615 00:39:17,156 --> 00:39:20,876 Speaker 1: viewing as you said, you vote with your vote, and 616 00:39:20,916 --> 00:39:26,436 Speaker 1: we support that, and we support players functioning as owners, 617 00:39:26,516 --> 00:39:29,636 Speaker 1: workers functioning as owners, just as we hopefully would support 618 00:39:29,716 --> 00:39:33,156 Speaker 1: it in society in general. Thank you so much, Jamal. 619 00:39:33,236 --> 00:39:36,156 Speaker 1: It's always an honor and pleasure to talk to you 620 00:39:36,196 --> 00:39:39,516 Speaker 1: and learn from you and to even dream as we 621 00:39:39,516 --> 00:39:41,996 Speaker 1: were towards the end of this podcast, Well, thank you. 622 00:39:42,036 --> 00:39:44,916 Speaker 1: I appreciate being here and having this conversation with you. 623 00:39:45,156 --> 00:39:47,316 Speaker 1: I always feel smarter when I talk to you, just 624 00:39:47,356 --> 00:39:51,196 Speaker 1: because by listening to you. So I really do appreciate 625 00:39:51,236 --> 00:39:53,796 Speaker 1: not just this podcast and this conversations, but just like 626 00:39:53,836 --> 00:39:57,196 Speaker 1: all the amazing thoughtful work that you're doing. Thank you 627 00:39:57,276 --> 00:40:07,116 Speaker 1: so much. Speaking with Jamal Hill really helped clarify for 628 00:40:07,276 --> 00:40:10,036 Speaker 1: me that every sport speed is a race beed in 629 00:40:10,076 --> 00:40:13,876 Speaker 1: a way. Just take this one story that broke around 630 00:40:13,876 --> 00:40:17,636 Speaker 1: the time Jamel and I spoke. The National Football League 631 00:40:17,956 --> 00:40:21,836 Speaker 1: has agreed to end a practice so called race norming, 632 00:40:21,956 --> 00:40:25,396 Speaker 1: in connection with a landmark concussion settle move. Some former 633 00:40:25,396 --> 00:40:29,036 Speaker 1: players say that the controversial race norming practice assumed that 634 00:40:29,196 --> 00:40:32,996 Speaker 1: black players start out with lower cognitive functioning than that 635 00:40:33,636 --> 00:40:37,356 Speaker 1: was used to deny the black players equal money in 636 00:40:37,436 --> 00:40:40,036 Speaker 1: the brain injury claims the one billion dollar brain injury 637 00:40:40,076 --> 00:40:45,196 Speaker 1: lawsuit for repetitive concussive injuries. Black professional athletes are viewed 638 00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:48,716 Speaker 1: too often by ownership, the media, and fans as what 639 00:40:48,836 --> 00:40:55,556 Speaker 1: journalists William Rodin calls forty million dollars slaves. When athletes 640 00:40:55,556 --> 00:40:59,676 Speaker 1: of color reclaimed their narrative like Naomia Socca or enter 641 00:40:59,756 --> 00:41:03,756 Speaker 1: ownership positions like Lebron James, they are treated almost as 642 00:41:03,836 --> 00:41:08,556 Speaker 1: runaways from a system designed to exploit them. Racism in 643 00:41:08,636 --> 00:41:12,196 Speaker 1: sports is a microcosm of racism in the world, and 644 00:41:12,356 --> 00:41:16,276 Speaker 1: anti racist solutions applied in sports can provide a model 645 00:41:16,316 --> 00:41:20,396 Speaker 1: for anti racist solutions in society. Jamel and I talked 646 00:41:20,396 --> 00:41:23,396 Speaker 1: a lot about power. Who is in the owner's box, 647 00:41:23,716 --> 00:41:26,676 Speaker 1: who is making the rules in teams, who is in 648 00:41:26,716 --> 00:41:30,316 Speaker 1: the press box, who is shaping the stories and narratives. 649 00:41:31,596 --> 00:41:35,396 Speaker 1: Change won't come unless the power structure in society in 650 00:41:35,476 --> 00:41:39,876 Speaker 1: sports shifts. At its core, the racial struggle is a 651 00:41:39,956 --> 00:41:45,156 Speaker 1: power struggle between people being racist and people being anti racist. 652 00:41:45,916 --> 00:41:56,916 Speaker 1: Let Us be Anti Racist, Be Anti Racist is a 653 00:41:56,956 --> 00:41:59,756 Speaker 1: production of Pushing Industries in Our Heart Media. It is 654 00:41:59,756 --> 00:42:02,316 Speaker 1: written and hosted by doctor ibramx Kindy and produced by 655 00:42:02,316 --> 00:42:06,356 Speaker 1: Alexandra Garriton with associate producer Britney Brown. Our engineer has 656 00:42:06,356 --> 00:42:09,076 Speaker 1: been Talliday, Our editor is Julia Barton and I'll show 657 00:42:09,156 --> 00:42:12,756 Speaker 1: under Sashimathias. Our executive producers are All the Time Wilad 658 00:42:12,796 --> 00:42:15,836 Speaker 1: and Mio Lobel Funny. Thanks to Tammy Winn and doctor 659 00:42:15,836 --> 00:42:18,556 Speaker 1: Heather Sandford at the Center for Anti Racist Research at 660 00:42:18,556 --> 00:42:21,596 Speaker 1: Boston University for all of their help at Pushkin thanks 661 00:42:21,596 --> 00:42:25,716 Speaker 1: to Heather Fame, Carli Migliori, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. 662 00:42:26,316 --> 00:42:28,596 Speaker 1: You can find doctor Kendy on Twitter at d r 663 00:42:28,676 --> 00:42:31,956 Speaker 1: Abram and on Instagram at Abram XK. You can find 664 00:42:31,956 --> 00:42:34,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin pods, and you 665 00:42:34,796 --> 00:42:36,556 Speaker 1: can sign up for our news that are at pushkin 666 00:42:36,596 --> 00:42:39,916 Speaker 1: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 667 00:42:39,996 --> 00:42:43,356 Speaker 1: our heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you'd like 668 00:42:43,476 --> 00:42:43,916 Speaker 1: to listen