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Speaker 3: For the past many months, the BBC has been broiled
Speaker 3: in a controversy in which it has been refusing to
Speaker 3: air a documentary that kind of took on a life
Speaker 3: of its own inside the organization, as the journalists there
Speaker 3: have been demanding to know what happened to an investigation
Speaker 3: that the BBC had commissioned into Israel's war on the
Speaker 3: on medical professionals in the entire kind of medical community
Speaker 3: inside of Gaza. That contrivers now resulted in the documentary
Speaker 3: being acquired by Mehdi Hassen and Zeteo News for its
Speaker 3: worldwide distribution and by Channel four inside the UK for
Speaker 3: its UK distribution. So many's joining us now to talk
Speaker 3: about this documentary and also the process that led up
Speaker 3: to it being centered and now being finally released last night.
Speaker 4: Maddie, thanks so much for joining us, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: And I wanted to start by honoring several of the
Speaker 3: medical professionals who have been killed in this genocide. If
Speaker 3: we could put up I believe it is C three
Speaker 3: drop site posted this yesterday. This is a picture from
Speaker 3: a graduation ceremony at the Faculty of Medicine in Gaza.
Speaker 3: Four of the people that you're looking at in this
Speaker 3: photo doctor Omar Farwana, who was the dean of the
Speaker 3: Faculty of Medicine, doctor Adnan al Bersh who was head
Speaker 3: of orthopedic surgery at Al Shifa Medical Complex, got A
Speaker 3: Rafat Lubad who was the head of internal medicine at
Speaker 3: Al Shifa. And also then this week was the killing
Speaker 3: of doctor Marwan al Sultan, who was the director of
Speaker 3: the Indonesian Hospital and a cardiologist. So in that photo,
Speaker 3: four of four of them have been assassinated, several targeted
Speaker 3: at their homes, not collateral damage from attacks on you know,
Speaker 3: fighters are caught in crossfire. But medi I want you
Speaker 3: to talk about the targeting of medical professionals because that
Speaker 3: is what I think people don't understand because it sounds
Speaker 3: so insane to say it out loud, that.
Speaker 5: It sounds insane to say it out loud.
Speaker 6: It's I mean two things, three things I think sound
Speaker 6: insane over the last twenty one months, twenty two months
Speaker 6: that we've normalized. One obviously the deliberate killing of journalists,
Speaker 6: which a lot of journalists in the.
Speaker 5: West have a lot of problem comprehending.
Speaker 6: The other is the deliberate killing of children, of course
Speaker 6: gunshot wounds to the head, sniper shots, not collateral damage.
Speaker 6: And of course the third is the doctors, the killing
Speaker 6: of doctors, nurses, paramedics, the deliberate targeting.
Speaker 5: And destruction of Garza's healthcare.
Speaker 6: That is what the premise that was the basis of
Speaker 6: this film is. And this film, produced by award winning
Speaker 6: filmmakers at Basement Films in the UK, made over several months,
Speaker 6: went through rigorous checks, went through the BBC editorial process
Speaker 6: for much of it.
Speaker 5: Ride of reply.
Speaker 6: Fantastic lead report remain a Navai award winning war correspondent
Speaker 6: and they put together this film, this hour long film
Speaker 6: based on eyewitness testimony from Palestinian doctors and survivors, as
Speaker 6: well as doctor Adnan old Brush, who you just mentioned.
Speaker 6: He's in this film, but he's since been killed in
Speaker 6: Israeli captivity, tortured and died in prison, killed in prison
Speaker 6: as one of his colleagues. So you've got eyewitness testimony
Speaker 6: from Palestinian doctors to what they have had to endure.
Speaker 6: We also have an Israeli medic whistleblower in the film
Speaker 6: who served at State Taman, the Israeli Gulag, the prison,
Speaker 6: the black site where they've taken Palestinian detainees to be tortured, raped, killed.
Speaker 5: So it's all there put together in the film.
Speaker 6: And you mentioned, you know, the targeting of doctors saying
Speaker 6: it out loud perhaps the most powerful moment for me
Speaker 6: in the film, and we just I would urge breaking
Speaker 6: points views to go to the Zeteo Twitter feed or
Speaker 6: Zeteo Bluska.
Speaker 5: We actually put up a clip from the.
Speaker 6: Film last night, separate to the trailer, which is one
Speaker 6: of the most powerful moments in the film from doctor
Speaker 6: Khalid Hamouda who was a surgeon, who is a surgeon
Speaker 6: in guards are now in Egypt, who was bombed in
Speaker 6: his home with his family, a family of to other doctors.
Speaker 6: At first ten people killed. They then flee him his
Speaker 6: wife as child, and they go down the street by
Speaker 6: the way. His house is blown up, not the entire street,
Speaker 6: just his house. They then go down the street to
Speaker 6: take refuge and a drone follows them down the street
Speaker 6: and attacks them again. And he wakes up in a
Speaker 6: hospital and sees a nurse carrying his child, his daughter,
Speaker 6: who's dead.
Speaker 5: The next morning, his wife, the mother of his child,
Speaker 5: is also dead.
Speaker 6: He's told Keled he's the only survivor or one of
Speaker 6: the only survivors I believe, from that masacret And she says,
Speaker 6: remin and Viler, what you were talking? He says, yes,
Speaker 6: drone came and targeted us. And this is what we
Speaker 6: heard from the world Central Kitchen folks when they were
Speaker 6: in the humanitarian convoy and they were.
Speaker 5: Targeted car to car to car.
Speaker 6: This is what we've heard from journalists, of course, and
Speaker 6: this is what we have to get our heads around.
Speaker 6: The United States of America has been arming and funding
Speaker 6: a country that is systematically. This is a key word here,
Speaker 6: destroying the Gaza healthcare system, destroying doctors and medics. And
Speaker 6: the key point here, and it comes out in the film.
Speaker 6: You can rebuild hospitals in years to come. Trump can
Speaker 6: turn Gaza into the Riviera of the Middle East and
Speaker 6: build as many hospitals as you like. You cannot rebuild
Speaker 6: that knowledge base, you cannot rebuild that human base.
Speaker 5: You cannot just.
Speaker 6: Get doctors back of Ghazan society palaces for years educating
Speaker 6: itself in this way, and these Raelis have deliberately targeted it.
Speaker 7: Well, let's take a look at the trailer.
Speaker 8: This is one to get a sample of what people
Speaker 8: can expect from the film.
Speaker 3: Rome.
Speaker 9: Israel has been killing the very people trying to keep
Speaker 9: the healthcare system alive, its doctors and medics, despite hospitals
Speaker 9: and healthcare workers being protected under international law. As Israel
Speaker 9: has bonded Gaza, hundreds of Palestinian doctors and medics have
Speaker 9: refused to leave their hospital.
Speaker 10: We are in the theater and operating room, full of darkness,
Speaker 10: no water, no electricity, but we have a hero surgeons
Speaker 10: in Gaza.
Speaker 9: Hundreds of medics have been killed, hundreds have been detained.
Speaker 9: Many of them have been forcibly disappeared. Our Palestinian team
Speaker 9: on the ground have gathered testimony from health workers and
Speaker 9: their families.
Speaker 4: Wings of them, and Israeli.
Speaker 9: Whistleblowers have told us they witnessed Palestinian prisoners being tortured
Speaker 9: and that some Israeli medics are complicit.
Speaker 6: I don't even think that in the Israeli society there
Speaker 6: is a need for cover up. These days, you can
Speaker 6: do almost whatever you want when it comes to gardens.
Speaker 8: One of the things people conceive METI is that this
Speaker 8: is a high production value film. In the BBC funded
Speaker 8: this film. The BBC then refused to err it and
Speaker 8: was giving quote unquote bullshit reasons. According to a source
Speaker 8: who told that to the Independent and medi you have
Speaker 8: probably a lot of insight into this process of why
Speaker 8: the BBC, which had recently aired row documentary, I believe
Speaker 8: that was on BBC.
Speaker 7: What happened?
Speaker 8: What's your understanding of why they ended up getting rid
Speaker 8: of a film that they funded?
Speaker 6: So the BBC put out a very long statement, a
Speaker 6: bullshit statement, I would argue as well. Their argument was
Speaker 6: that they had this other documentary that they aired on GAZA,
Speaker 6: which became super controversial, I would argue for unnecessary reasons.
Speaker 5: It was narrated by a child in Gaza surviving the war.
Speaker 6: And it turns out the child was the son of
Speaker 6: a deputy agriculture minister in the Gaza government, some technocrat
Speaker 6: who was then labeled, of course as just Hamas.
Speaker 5: And there was a huge furory in the UK that.
Speaker 6: The BBC had put out a film from the child
Speaker 6: of a Hamas minister, even though again it was a
Speaker 6: well sourced, well made, high production valuy film.
Speaker 5: The child had not decided the editorial agenda.
Speaker 6: But while they were quote unquote investigating how that happened,
Speaker 6: they decided to park this film, which, as you say,
Speaker 6: they'd spent a lot of money on, spent many months
Speaker 6: making with Basement Films, who we are Detayo know well
Speaker 6: because they made a film for his last year called
Speaker 6: Israel's Real Extremism, which came on the show talking about
Speaker 6: memory sells me correctly then and the fundamental argument for
Speaker 6: the BBC was, well, Basement Films went out and talked
Speaker 6: about the process while we were still trying to get
Speaker 6: everything approved. They then put out Basement were frustrated. Of course,
Speaker 6: my friend Benda Peir, who's the executive producer, formerhead of Channel.
Speaker 5: Four News, very respected award winning journalists.
Speaker 6: He went out at the Sheffield Documentary Festival and said,
Speaker 6: come on, this is ridiculous. We've got doctors in the
Speaker 6: film waiting for this film to come out. We're showing
Speaker 6: disrespect to people who risked their lives to talk to us. Sources, whistleblowers,
Speaker 6: you know, survivors are massacres. The BBC put out statements
Speaker 6: saying well, if we put it out now, there will
Speaker 6: be the perception of partiality, and the BBC can't have
Speaker 6: the perception of partiality. The great irony being, of course,
Speaker 6: that their decision not to air this film that they
Speaker 6: commissioned that ran through their checks. That is the greatest
Speaker 6: perception of partiality. It's partiality towards Israel. They have now
Speaker 6: run one Gaza doc and then pulled it nowhere to
Speaker 6: be seen because apparently it was the child of a
Speaker 6: Hamas minister bullshit argument. And now they didn't even the
Speaker 6: other Gaza documentary. And then add that to all of
Speaker 6: the rest of the coverage of the BBC's of Gaza
Speaker 6: over the last twenty one to twenty two months, which
Speaker 6: has been abysmal, which has been which has caused multiple
Speaker 6: internal you know, backlashes, protests from BBC staff who are
Speaker 6: frustrated at what their broadcaster has done. This is a
Speaker 6: BBC that has been cowed, intimidated, pressured, bullied.
Speaker 5: This is a BBC. I used to work at the BBC.
Speaker 6: I used to defend the BBC when I worked in
Speaker 6: the UK from right wing bullshit attacks. But I think
Speaker 6: I've never seen in my entire lifetime. I'm im about
Speaker 6: to turn forty six years old, in my entire lifetime,
Speaker 6: I'm watching the BBC.
Speaker 5: I've been watching the BBC since.
Speaker 6: Children's Cartoons on a Saturday morning, and I can honestly
Speaker 6: say it's never taken a beating like this. I've never
Speaker 6: had such a depressing, disappointing view of the national broadcast
Speaker 6: in the UK that I've had since October twenty twenty three.
Speaker 6: I know many other people who stopped watching the BBC,
Speaker 6: stopped appearing on the BBC because their coverage has been
Speaker 6: so shameful, not just in the documentary space, but in
Speaker 6: the new space, the online space, the ridiculous headlines. There
Speaker 6: was a study by the SENSE for Media Monitoring recently
Speaker 6: which said they give thirty three times as much coverage
Speaker 6: per Israeli casualty as they do per Palestinian casualty.
Speaker 5: So there's not a perception of partiality.
Speaker 6: There's a well documented evidence of partiality towards Israel.
Speaker 4: And I want to linger on that point and connect.
Speaker 3: It to the point that you made about the original
Speaker 3: controversy that then put this documentary on ice.
Speaker 4: Trying to imagine a world in which a.
Speaker 3: Documentary was made about the difficulties faced by Israeli children
Speaker 3: in the war, which are non trivial, often headed to
Speaker 3: bomb shelters, which is absolutely even if nothing happens, it's
Speaker 3: traumatizing for a child to have to hide, to hide
Speaker 3: somewhere with their family in the dark, worried that they
Speaker 3: might get hit by a bomb.
Speaker 4: Like that alone is traumatizing.
Speaker 3: So let's say that the BBC commission a documentary focused
Speaker 3: on the way that the war was affecting children, and
Speaker 3: then it turned out that the boy's father worked for
Speaker 3: the Ministry of Agriculture in Israel, and they pulled the
Speaker 3: documentary and apologized and and.
Speaker 4: Investigated how that could happen?
Speaker 3: How could you possibly have aired the thoughts of a
Speaker 3: child whose father works for the Ministry of Agriculture in Israel.
Speaker 4: That to me kind of tells you everything you need.
Speaker 3: To know about the way that the BBC approached it.
Speaker 3: So how difficult was it to kind of pry this
Speaker 3: out of the BBC or were they like, thank you, Metti,
Speaker 3: We're so glad to be done with this controversy.
Speaker 6: So the heavy lifting was done by Ben de Paratt
Speaker 6: Basement Films, who spent who made this film, sweat and
Speaker 6: blood in this film, spent a long time.
Speaker 5: In back and forth with the BBC. And you know,
Speaker 5: he runs an independent production company.
Speaker 6: It's very risky for him to pick a fight with
Speaker 6: one of the biggest broadcasters in the world, which commissions
Speaker 6: his staff. So props to my friend Ben really for
Speaker 6: believing in this film and saying, look, I want it
Speaker 6: out there. Doesn't matter if I screw up my relationship
Speaker 6: with people, doesn't matter if I lose money on this.
Speaker 5: I want it out there.
Speaker 6: And the BBC did sit on it for a while
Speaker 6: and weren't going to release it as far as I'm aware,
Speaker 6: and eventually they did release it, partly because of Ben's cajoling,
Speaker 6: partly because I think they just wanted to be done
Speaker 6: with it, and then US and Channel four were able
Speaker 6: to come in and say, well, we're going to give
Speaker 6: it a platform. I knew from the moment they benched it,
Speaker 6: if this film becomes available, I was messaging men, say
Speaker 6: we want a platform. This is what Zato was created for,
Speaker 6: right to give these voices to the world, to try
Speaker 6: and platform these voices.
Speaker 5: We know, Ryan, you and I that the right have
Speaker 5: been arguing.
Speaker 6: About cancel culture for decades and yet the single biggest
Speaker 6: victims of cancel culture are Palestinians and supporters of the
Speaker 6: Palestinian movement and journalism about Palestine and academia about Palestine,
Speaker 6: and that has been a fundamental issue. We've seen that
Speaker 6: in this conflict, and I think that was a frustrating
Speaker 6: issue where the BBC we're not airing it and we're
Speaker 6: not releasing it, and the moment they released it, we
Speaker 6: move fast. And props to Channel four broadcaster in the
Speaker 6: UK for running it, because again, Ryan, you say hamas
Speaker 6: and everything shuts down, All critical faculties shut down, even
Speaker 6: amongst smart liberal, progressive folks. And if you're able to
Speaker 6: say anything's hamasked, and that's what you're able to throw
Speaker 6: at it, and I'm sure people will throw that at
Speaker 6: this film as well. One thing I took great pride
Speaker 6: in doing was take you know, the BBC put out
Speaker 6: statements saying this is not our film anymore. That's true,
Speaker 6: it's not their film anymore. We made some We made
Speaker 6: a few changes. One of the changes we made is
Speaker 6: we took out all references to the Hamas run health ministry.
Speaker 6: We call it the Garza Ministry of Health of this film.
Speaker 6: That in itself is a propagandistic and loaded phrase, as
Speaker 6: you well know, because it allows people to then cast
Speaker 6: doubt on the deaths and torture pass it. And we
Speaker 6: have eyewitness accounts of this film fro people who are
Speaker 6: nothing knew Hamas about that suffering. Just one quick story
Speaker 6: that your viewers might be interested in that I heard
Speaker 6: recently from someone else. You talk about the kind of
Speaker 6: imagine if this was the other way around. A production company,
Speaker 6: I'm told went to a major American broadcaster at the
Speaker 6: start of this conflict, at the start of the genocide
Speaker 6: and had a story worry about a Palestinian family just
Speaker 6: to kind of followed the moon around and the suffering
Speaker 6: they were going through and the number of members of
Speaker 6: the family had been killed, and the American broadcaster said,
Speaker 6: we'll run it, but first go and find First, let
Speaker 6: us go and find an Israeli family so we can
Speaker 6: balance it and we'll run both stories. A few weeks later,
Speaker 6: they came back to the production company and said, well,
Speaker 6: we can't find the Israeli family that suffered like the
Speaker 6: Palestinian Family show does.
Speaker 5: Therefore we're not running your story. Not we'll just run yours,
Speaker 5: but we won't run.
Speaker 6: Anything now because we can't do this fake bullshit balance.
Speaker 3: Right, And it would would have looked worse if you
Speaker 3: try to do the balance, because you'd see.
Speaker 6: They just dropped the whole thing. Right, This is what
Speaker 6: happens if Palestinian voice is are silence.
Speaker 8: The other interesting thing about the BBC's position here is
Speaker 8: they're not disputing any facts in the film or any
Speaker 8: of the journalism, right many they aren't. They aren't disputing
Speaker 8: the quality of the journalism. They're not even saying that
Speaker 8: it didn't meet their editorial standards, which is a pretty
Speaker 8: usual excuse.
Speaker 5: Yep, not at all. And I think they're hiding behind
Speaker 5: this bullshit phrase perception of partiality.
Speaker 6: So it's only and By the way, Emily, they're not
Speaker 6: even saying it's a biased film. They're saying if we
Speaker 6: run it now, people will say that we are biased
Speaker 6: to one side, and we are scared of people people
Speaker 6: being the pros ra A lobby, and therefore we are
Speaker 6: not going to put it out. I mean, look, the
Speaker 6: people who made this film of one Oscars and Emmy's
Speaker 6: the reporter Ramita Nevai is of Iranian descent, has done
Speaker 6: films all about Iran's human rights abuses.
Speaker 5: She's traveled around the world. The credibility of these people
Speaker 5: cannot be questioned. I'm sure it will be questioned by
Speaker 5: bad faith actors.
Speaker 6: And yet this is where we've reached now, in the
Speaker 6: name of protecting Israel, wittingly or unwittingly, we've burned down
Speaker 6: international law, and we've burned down journalistic credibility.
Speaker 5: We've burned down so.
Speaker 6: Many institutions which will not survive the last twenty two months.
Speaker 4: So, Mady, where can people go to find this?
Speaker 6: So they can go to find this at gazadoctors dot
Speaker 6: film that's the website we set up for this film specifically,
Speaker 6: or zateo dot com. It is available to paid subscribers
Speaker 6: for now. People will say, well, why not put it
Speaker 6: out for free to the world. Well, because the people
Speaker 6: behind this film spent a lot of time and money
Speaker 6: making this film, and I just want to remind people
Speaker 6: that a free press isn't free. High quality journalism requires investment.
Speaker 6: If you really want documentaries that are going to win
Speaker 6: awards and report on the ground and break stories, then
Speaker 6: we really have to support it financially. I'm proud that
Speaker 6: Zeteo is financially supporting this film.
Speaker 5: It costs a lot of money around Emily.
Speaker 6: As you know, documentaries cost a lot, and therefore we
Speaker 6: are airing it to our paid subscribers. I urge people
Speaker 6: to become a paid subscriber. If you become a monthly
Speaker 6: subscriber's less than the cost of going to the movie
Speaker 6: theater to watch a film. And this film is more
Speaker 6: important than any other film you're going to see this year,
Speaker 6: including the f one movie, which I loved, But this
Speaker 6: movie is more important.
Speaker 4: It is true.
Speaker 3: Journalism is expensive, and documentaries are particularly so.
Speaker 4: The travel, the.
Speaker 3: Sophistication that goes into the legally, the leegaling, oh my god,
Speaker 3: don't get me started on the legaling. Well, Mettie, thank
Speaker 3: you so much for joining us and congrats on this acquisition.
Speaker 3: I'm glad that it's it's getting out there. Finally, a
Speaker 3: new legal filing from attorneys for Kilmar Abrego Garcia alleges
Speaker 3: that he was tortured while in Seacott custody in El Salvador.
Speaker 4: We can put up this first element up on the screen.
Speaker 3: Abreo Garcia was it has it has become the detainee
Speaker 3: who has captured the most attention.
Speaker 4: And it could have gone a lot of different ways.
Speaker 3: It could have been the makeup artist who is still
Speaker 3: facing these brutal conditions in El Salvadora. Could have been
Speaker 3: the soccer the venezuela and soccer player who had absolutely
Speaker 3: no connection to Toneo Ragua and yet remains down there.
Speaker 3: Abrego Garcia has become the one that Democrats kind of
Speaker 3: focus their attention on. He would He was returned from
Speaker 3: Al Salvador, surprise by the administration to face face charges
Speaker 3: for human trafficking in Nashville in the in the Nashville area,
Speaker 3: charges which are now face kind of crumbling under scrutiny.
Speaker 3: This this new allegation service as a part of these
Speaker 3: ongoing proceedings, and we're still joined by a Sto's Mandy
Speaker 3: Hassen to talk through some of this. Many thank you
Speaker 3: for sticking around. We appreciate it.
Speaker 5: It's a terrific story.
Speaker 3: Run it really is they talk about and you know
Speaker 3: what you know they they he says that you know,
Speaker 3: he walked into Seacott and one of the guards said
Speaker 3: to him and was saying to everybody who was coming in,
Speaker 3: welcome to Seacott.
Speaker 4: Those who enter, uh never leave and a break up.
Speaker 3: Garcia is one of the only cases that I think
Speaker 3: we even know of, whether in El Salvador or anywhere else,
Speaker 3: of somebody leaving leaving Seacott alive soon after getting there.
Speaker 3: It seems like they had them all kneel for twenty
Speaker 3: four hours, which.
Speaker 4: Maddy and I are old men at this point.
Speaker 3: If we kneel for two minutes, were we are, we're
Speaker 3: struggling hard and then they were beaten. If they if
Speaker 3: they collapsed, and the filing says that he soiled himself,
Speaker 3: you know, while they were being forced to kneel kind
Speaker 3: of overnight among a bunch of the other abuses. Do
Speaker 3: you think that this is the reason why the Trump
Speaker 3: administration was initially so reluctant to and is still reluctant
Speaker 3: to return anybody from the detention center because they can
Speaker 3: then talk about what happened down there.
Speaker 5: I think he's part of the reason. I don't think
Speaker 5: it's the whole reason.
Speaker 6: I think even if they weren't being tortured there, it's
Speaker 6: a point of principle right for the bullies not to
Speaker 6: give in, and they don't want to say that. All
Speaker 6: the liberal media and the Democrats made and the human
Speaker 6: rights science has.
Speaker 5: Made us bring people back.
Speaker 6: You remember that the ridiculous playing Homeland Security Secretary Christi
Speaker 6: nom went in front of Congress and said, I guarantee
Speaker 6: you he's never coming back. Well, he did come back,
Speaker 6: but for this bullshit Tennessee indictment for human trafficking, human smuggling.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think it's part of the reason. It's not
Speaker 5: the only reason.
Speaker 6: And Human Rights to Watch have documented that this is
Speaker 6: a prison where people never leave from and yes, they
Speaker 6: are just literally disappeared inside of there. It's a horrific
Speaker 6: gulag in El Salvador, created by a kind of autocrat
Speaker 6: President Buckley Trump's ally.
Speaker 5: People are treated horrifically.
Speaker 6: He was threatened with being put into cells with gang
Speaker 6: members where he would be killed. He was told by
Speaker 6: the guards. He had his head shaved forcibly with a
Speaker 6: zero razor. He was beaten with wooden batons, he was
Speaker 6: punched in the head. He was, as you say, forced
Speaker 6: to kneel all night long, kicked and beaten if they
Speaker 6: weren't able to kneel all night long, soiled himself, deprived
Speaker 6: of food, malnutrition, lost.
Speaker 5: Dozens of pounds.
Speaker 6: You'll remember that photo that the Trump administration released with
Speaker 6: him and Chris van Holland having Margarita's which, as the
Speaker 6: said from Mariland pointed that they didn't order it was
Speaker 6: placed in the picture by the El Salvadorans to.
Speaker 5: Make it look like they were having this great time.
Speaker 5: He was not having a great time.
Speaker 6: And we can only dread to imagine what is happening
Speaker 6: to some of the other innocent people who have been
Speaker 6: sent there. The gay barber who was sent there, the
Speaker 6: guy with the autism tattoos who was looking after his brother.
Speaker 6: So many cases. There was a case just this week
Speaker 6: I read of where the Trump administration have admitted for
Speaker 6: once that they sent someone who shouldn't have been sent
Speaker 6: out over but they can't find him anymore. I tweeted
Speaker 6: this yesterday and I stand by this. You said you
Speaker 6: and I are old men because we can't neel. We're
Speaker 6: also old men who remember two thousand and one, two
Speaker 6: thousand and two, two thousand and three. I think this
Speaker 6: is as big a scandal, if not bigger scandal than
Speaker 6: Abu Grebe and Guantanamo Bay. This is happening in plain sight.
Speaker 6: At least we could argue in two thousand and one,
Speaker 6: two three. We didn't know till much later. We didn't
Speaker 6: know till Senator Diane Feinstein's report. We didn't know till
Speaker 6: Seymour Hershe's reporting in the New Yorker. This is happening
Speaker 6: in plain sight. We have known since day one. We
Speaker 6: didn't even need kill Albrego Garcia's report. We saw the
Speaker 6: video that the Trump administration put out. Remember they put
Speaker 6: out a video to music showing off their torture and
Speaker 6: beating enforcible shavings of innocent men sent to SEACOD. Now
Speaker 6: we have this forty page amendment with the details in it.
Speaker 6: I think history will judge what those of us who
Speaker 6: know about it and saw did in this moment.
Speaker 5: This is a scandal.
Speaker 6: The Democrats in Congress should be screaming about from the rooftops,
Speaker 6: which every Democrat who wants to be president in twenty
Speaker 6: twenty eight should be talking about. The Trump administration took
Speaker 6: a bunch of people in the United States, including possibly
Speaker 6: legal residents. We don't know because they haven't told us
Speaker 6: who went and sent them to a foreign gulag to
Speaker 6: be tortured, and refused to bring them back, including when
Speaker 6: the court said.
Speaker 5: Send them back. That is a crime.
Speaker 6: That is a scandal, and I think Americans need to
Speaker 6: stop thinking it can't happen here.
Speaker 5: We're not like those other countries.
Speaker 6: The descriptions in this report, in this amendment are the
Speaker 6: kind of descriptions you would read about from a North
Speaker 6: Korean prison, an Iranian prison, a Russian prison.
Speaker 5: Let's stop pretending we don't do what everyone else does.
Speaker 8: Well, So this is something that Ryan and I actually
Speaker 8: debated a little bit yesterday, and we can put D two.
Speaker 8: This is a vo of Alligator Alcatraz flooding on the screen.
Speaker 7: So this.
Speaker 8: Engineering marvel that was constructed very quickly in the middle
Speaker 8: of the Everglades is already flooding. Probably knows prize to
Speaker 8: anybody who would conceive of what it might look like
Speaker 8: after you throw up a massive three thousand bud facility
Speaker 8: in the Everglades in like a week's time. And Ryan
Speaker 8: raised the point that hurricane season could be especially devastating
Speaker 8: to people who are kept there in the future. So
Speaker 8: three thousand beds, they want to increase that to five
Speaker 8: thousand beds, and they just got an infusion of funding
Speaker 8: for immigration enforcement. But Maddie, I think the public hates
Speaker 8: the Seacott stuff. I think most of the public hates
Speaker 8: the Seacott stuff because it feels profoundly un American. I
Speaker 8: think it's a blind spot for the Trump administration that
Speaker 8: gets very online and you know, sort of falls for
Speaker 8: the appeal of the memes on these types of things.
Speaker 8: I think the Trump administration has sort of understood that,
Speaker 8: which is why they didn't send another group of people
Speaker 8: to Seacott, at least not yet on the political front. So,
Speaker 8: I guess I'm curious what you make of Alligator Alcatraz,
Speaker 8: which you mentioned christinoam like cosplaying. Honestly, I feel like it.
Speaker 8: I think we need to take it seriously. I do
Speaker 8: feel like the Trump administration likes to larp as Bucelli.
Speaker 8: I don't think it's popular, but I don't foresee Alligator
Speaker 8: Alcatraz looking like Seacott. That does mean I don't think
Speaker 8: we should take the threat of that seriously. But I'm
Speaker 8: curious what you expect to see from the facility in
Speaker 8: the next several months as they start filling it.
Speaker 6: The just on the lopping point, I should also point
Speaker 6: out that when the history books are written about this
Speaker 6: period and about the torture Now Salvador, you will have
Speaker 6: a series of Republican members of Congress who went to
Speaker 6: El Salvador, stood outside prison cell, said what a.
Speaker 5: Great place this is. Christineom Christina led the charts.
Speaker 6: She stood in front of a cell full of dozens
Speaker 6: and dozens of men would shaved heads, lined up for
Speaker 6: a photo op, many of those men who have been tortured,
Speaker 6: as we now know. And this is what the American
Speaker 6: guvernment was part of, which is what I'm saying. It's
Speaker 6: worse in many ways than Abu Gray because the Bush administration,
Speaker 6: Cheney and Ashcroft, didn't go and do.
Speaker 5: Photo ops at Abu Gray.
Speaker 7: They tried to keep it.
Speaker 5: They tried to keep it hidden.
Speaker 6: And this administration, as usual, the cruelty is the point
Speaker 6: to borrow Adam Seller's line. So yes, and I think, look,
Speaker 6: whether you call it alligator, alcarez, whatever stupid name these
Speaker 6: people give to their concentration cabs. Even already, ice detention
Speaker 6: facilities were overcrowded. We were hearing reports about abuse. We're
Speaker 6: hearing stories about people not eating for days, not having beds,
Speaker 6: sleeping on the floor, no blankets, all sorts of abuse.
Speaker 6: Nine to one one calls from ice detention centers with
Speaker 6: people collapsing that we had a death I believe of
Speaker 6: a Cuban American man this week or a Cuban man
Speaker 6: this week. I don't know what a stayed as well.
Speaker 6: I can't remember who knows what this administration, what the
Speaker 6: states of any.
Speaker 3: Many Just to underline that, because I was just in
Speaker 3: Miami and they were talking about this down there a lot.
Speaker 3: He was a seventy five year old man who had
Speaker 3: been in the United States since nineteen sixty five, since
Speaker 3: the age of fifteen, So he fled what they will
Speaker 3: call in Miami the Castro dictatorship, which I mean kind
Speaker 3: of was dictator.
Speaker 8: Yeah, we're glad to have you guys on the record.
Speaker 5: Here we go that.
Speaker 3: He so he'd been here for sixty years now, a
Speaker 3: lot of people in Miami because it's its cultural nature.
Speaker 3: Like maybe he never became a citizen. I don't know,
Speaker 3: Like it's quite possibly he didn't. He easily could have.
Speaker 3: If you've been here since nineteen sixty five as a Cuban,
Speaker 3: you could have become a citizen.
Speaker 4: But just in Miami, like a lot of people didn't.
Speaker 3: He died in ICED attention, and Tom Homan responded, well,
Speaker 3: you know, bad things.
Speaker 5: In every prison.
Speaker 4: People don't in every prison.
Speaker 3: But we're saving so many lives with ICE anyway, So
Speaker 3: I just wanted to ice prisons.
Speaker 6: ICE prisons in particular are overcrowded. We know now we
Speaker 6: have this new budget. We have this budget bill that's
Speaker 6: gone through, giving them more money than most than a
Speaker 6: lot of foreign militaries.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of people appointed to that.
Speaker 6: I believe they're going to be I believe they're gonna
Speaker 6: have half the levels of personalnel as the United States
Speaker 6: Marine Corps when all this sudden and done, if this
Speaker 6: bill goes through. So they're getting lots of money for
Speaker 6: fancy new centers and troops. But what I would say
Speaker 6: is even already the overcrowding is insane. The conditions are horrific.
Speaker 6: You mentioned the elderly Cuban man. There was an Iranian
Speaker 6: woman who's been here fifty years. She came in nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy nine her family and came to visit the United States,
Speaker 6: and the revolution happened and they stayed and she never
Speaker 6: got citizenship and they are now deputshake. I think they
Speaker 6: got her in her front yard while she was gardening,
Speaker 6: this dangerous threat, this elderly Iranian woman. So these are
Speaker 6: kind of ridiculous stories coming out from the ICE detentions.
Speaker 6: But the conditions, to go back to Emily's question, are horrific.
Speaker 6: I don't think even if they get thirty seven billion
Speaker 6: dollars from this bill, that they're somehow going to build
Speaker 6: nicer facilities.
Speaker 5: It's not about lack of resources.
Speaker 6: The reason people are being abused in detention is not
Speaker 6: because they lack resources. That's part of it, but it's
Speaker 6: also because the cruelty is the point. They don't see
Speaker 6: these people as fully human beings. They don't see these
Speaker 6: people as deserving of right. You've heard United States senators
Speaker 6: have gone on live television and said, no, foreigners don't
Speaker 6: get you process. Foreigns aren't covered by the Constitution. This
Speaker 6: is the kind of ridiculous shit that is said by
Speaker 6: people with law degrees serving in the United States Senate,
Speaker 6: which is obviously nonsense. Everyone gets due process. So that
Speaker 6: is the fundamental problem. It's not about resources, it's not
Speaker 6: about where you locate your concentration camp. It's about the
Speaker 6: fundamental mindset of Tom Homan and Stephen Miller and Donald Trump,
Speaker 6: which is that these people are not fully human.
Speaker 5: These people are not people deserving of rights.
Speaker 6: These people need to be punished to send a message,
Speaker 6: and these people need to.
Speaker 5: Be out of here. And I think that is the
Speaker 5: key point that Ryan mentioned. Miami.
Speaker 6: A bunch of Republicans in Florida members of the House
Speaker 6: are saying, well, come on, can you tone it down
Speaker 6: a bit because they're feeling some backlash from their constituents
Speaker 6: who are like, you know, the leoparded, what's the face
Speaker 6: the face eating leopard party meme?
Speaker 5: Like, I didn't know they'd come for my.
Speaker 8: Friends, Manny, I know you have to run. So thank
Speaker 8: you so much for sticking around for a second segment.
Speaker 7: We appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys, of course, Zoron Mom Donnie held a
Speaker 3: press conference to respond to President Trump's threat that he
Speaker 3: was going to do also of things to him, including
Speaker 3: round him up, to port him jailum, et cetera.
Speaker 4: Here's Mom, Donnie.
Speaker 11: Yesterday, Donald Trump said that I should be arrested. He
Speaker 11: said that I should be deported. He said that I
Speaker 11: should be denaturalized. And he said those things about me,
Speaker 11: someone who stands to be the first immigrant mayor of
Speaker 11: this city in generation, someone who would also be the
Speaker 11: first Muslim in the first South Asian mayor in this
Speaker 11: city's history, less so because of who I am, because
Speaker 11: of where I come from, because of how I look
Speaker 11: or how I speak, and more so because he wants
Speaker 11: to distract from what I fight for. I fight for
Speaker 11: working people. I fight for the very people that have
Speaker 11: been priced out of this city. And I fight for
Speaker 11: the same people that he said he was fighting for.
Speaker 11: This is the same president who ran on a campaign
Speaker 11: of cheaper groceries, who ran on a campaign about easing
Speaker 11: a suffocating cost of living crisis, And ultimately, it is
Speaker 11: easier for him to fan the flames of division than
Speaker 11: to acknowledge the ways in which he has betrayed those
Speaker 11: working class Americans, not just in the city, but across
Speaker 11: this country and the ways in which he continues to
Speaker 11: betray them, because we know that he would rather speak
Speaker 11: about me than speak about the legislation that he is
Speaker 11: shepherding through Washington, DC, legislation that will quite literally take
Speaker 11: healthcare away from Americans, legislation that will steal food from
Speaker 11: the Hungary, legislation that looks to build upon one of
Speaker 11: the largest transfers of wealth we've seen in recent history
Speaker 11: in his first administration, and do it once again for
Speaker 11: the very Americans who already have enough.
Speaker 7: We should be.
Speaker 11: Fighting for those that do not have what they need
Speaker 11: to live a dignified life. That is what I will do,
Speaker 11: and I am thankful to have the protection and to
Speaker 11: have the support of so many New Yorkers who have
Speaker 11: stood up and set how unacceptable this is, including our governor,
Speaker 11: including members of the labor movement. And ultimately, what I
Speaker 11: fear for is that if this is what Donald Trump
Speaker 11: and his administration feel comfortable about saying about the Democratic
Speaker 11: nominee for the mayor of New York City, imagine what
Speaker 11: they feel comfortable saying and doing about immigrants whose names
Speaker 11: they don't even know.
Speaker 3: So also yesterday, and we can put up this element
Speaker 3: here President Trump's Homeland Security Advisory Council, which is a
Speaker 3: group that includes such luminaries as Bo Didel who is
Speaker 3: the founder of Bikers for Trump, and Rudy Giuliani, who
Speaker 3: is a believer or not the former mayor of New
Speaker 3: York once in his life, as well as some other
Speaker 3: folks they met, and they quickly decided that the main
Speaker 3: thing the Homeland Security Advisory Council needed to focus its
Speaker 3: meeting on was what they're going to do about zoron
Speaker 3: Mam Donnie and talking about the Homeland Security Department having
Speaker 3: authorities that haven't been used in the past that maybe.
Speaker 4: Need to look into that.
Speaker 3: So before we get into the actual threats on Mom Donnie,
Speaker 3: Emily and I wanted to talk about his response to it,
Speaker 3: because I think we both think that this is an
Speaker 3: expression of a populist democratic party that could exist that
Speaker 3: does not exist, but these are the kind of green
Speaker 3: shoots of it popping up, and that if it did exist,
Speaker 3: it would represent a genuinely interesting development on the scene
Speaker 3: and would be kind of a party that was actually
Speaker 3: worth working people respecting and voting for, which is stunning
Speaker 3: because it's happening at a time when the Democratic Party
Speaker 3: could not be at its lowest.
Speaker 8: We saw when we were here yesterday. We saw a
Speaker 8: preview of mom Donnie's strategy towards this when he just
Speaker 8: first put out his statement after Trump made his comments
Speaker 8: and pivoted, and we talked about that yesterday, how he
Speaker 8: pivoted to basically class warfare. Did the same thing right here.
Speaker 8: He pivoted not to I shouldn't say class warfare, because
Speaker 8: I think that diminishes it. He pivoted to affordability. And
Speaker 8: it's like, this is what you do if you realize
Speaker 8: your average voter isn't Liz Cheney. This is how you
Speaker 8: run a campaign where you're going after Trump, but you're
Speaker 8: not fully taking Trump's bait. And I think it it's
Speaker 8: genuinely a pretty interesting development for Democrats that they now
Speaker 8: have a kind of textbook example of how.
Speaker 4: To do the thing right.
Speaker 3: It's not backing down on the initial charge. It's not
Speaker 3: apologizing for any of the culture war stuff Trump is
Speaker 3: doing here. It's pushing back on that, but then it's
Speaker 3: moving and saying the reason you're doing this is because
Speaker 3: you're a billionaire that doesn't care about people and you
Speaker 3: just want to distract from the fact that you're stealing
Speaker 3: everybody's medicaid and that you promise to run on making
Speaker 3: groceres cheaper and you're not doing it. It's really interesting
Speaker 3: because the twenty seventeen, you know, the first term version
Speaker 3: of Democrats against Trump, would have just fully seized on
Speaker 3: the culture war aspect of it and said Donald Trump
Speaker 3: is a bigot, he's a xenophobe, we are a nation
Speaker 3: of immigrants, and he doesn't back away from all of that. Rhetorically,
Speaker 3: he believes all of those things, but that's not really
Speaker 3: where he puts his energy.
Speaker 8: But don't your response and what you're saying is that
Speaker 8: twenty seven because I think this is so true and
Speaker 8: easily Yeah, I feel like that's really what everyone would
Speaker 8: have done. Like the conventional wisdom is that maybe you
Speaker 8: throw in a couple of lines about grocery prices and
Speaker 8: medicaid and snap, but actually you spend the bulk of
Speaker 8: your response talking about how you are going to be
Speaker 8: the first missile mayor of New York City and how
Speaker 8: that's what scares Donald Trump. He's scared of brown people,
Speaker 8: he's scared of change. I think that's totally true if
Speaker 8: we put that in the time machine. If we put
Speaker 8: mont Donnie in a time machine and say he was
Speaker 8: running in twenty seventeen, maybe he would have been sparner
Speaker 8: about it.
Speaker 7: But the strategists on the.
Speaker 5: Left would not have.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they would not have.
Speaker 3: And I think it's probably it's tied up in the
Speaker 3: intrademocratic fight that happened at the time where Bernie Sanders had,
Speaker 3: you know, just come off this very bitter primary, where
Speaker 3: a lot of Hillary Clinton supporters were still even blaming
Speaker 3: Bernie Sanders for the fact that Trump was in at all.
Speaker 3: And anybody who said that Donald Trump supporters had quote
Speaker 3: unquote economic anxiety, yes, was that was said to be
Speaker 3: code for the real reason that they've supported Trump, which
Speaker 3: is their their racism and their homophobia and their bigotry
Speaker 3: and on and on and so, because that was the case,
Speaker 3: if Democrats shied away from talking about economic anxiety because
Speaker 3: they were afraid that they would then like, oh, look
Speaker 3: at you, you racist much Mamdani instead takes Trump at
Speaker 3: his word and says, if you notice in that clip
Speaker 3: he says Trump ran on these things, people voted for him.
Speaker 4: The point he's making is people voted.
Speaker 3: For Trump because he promised he was going to lower
Speaker 3: grocery prices. He was going to make the city more
Speaker 3: affordable and fill their lives with some dignity, make their
Speaker 3: lives better.
Speaker 4: That's what Trump said he was going to do.
Speaker 3: And he's talking to Trump supporters and saying he's not
Speaker 3: doing that.
Speaker 4: What is he doing?
Speaker 3: He's getting you all riled up about me when all
Speaker 3: I'm trying to do is lower grocery prices.
Speaker 8: I revisited this last week when we talked to Zoron
Speaker 8: in what.
Speaker 7: Was that December?
Speaker 4: Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was November December.
Speaker 8: Actually, you know what, I think it was November because
Speaker 8: he was going to say told.
Speaker 4: He was interviewing the Trump people.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, he did. He sort of followed Alexander A.
Speaker 8: Kazo Cortez's lead and went out into I think he
Speaker 8: told this to the Bronx and he was in Queen's
Speaker 8: he was interviewing people, talking to them, trying to pitch
Speaker 8: himself to Trump voters, and he said the number one
Speaker 8: thing they were concerned about was the price of groceries.
Speaker 8: They feel like they have less in their bank accounts than.
Speaker 4: They used to.
Speaker 8: And that's again, it's so obvious. But twenty seventeen you
Speaker 8: just couldn't make that argument period, which.
Speaker 3: Is weird because of course you could, but like you could,
Speaker 3: just the structures of the Democratic Party at the time
Speaker 3: were just not allowing the party there was on And
Speaker 3: also they were so thoroughly rewarded by the media for
Speaker 3: leaning into the culture war.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and rewarded.
Speaker 3: By a significant chunk of their voters. Doesn't mean those
Speaker 3: voters wouldn't also have been with them on other stuff. Now,
Speaker 3: inflation was not what it was in twenty seventeen, like
Speaker 3: we had you know, one percent inflation since basically the
Speaker 3: financial crisis, so you know, the context is actually different now.
Speaker 3: The economy is stunk, and that's why Trump won, I
Speaker 3: think in twenty sixteen. But it wasn't exactly prices. It
Speaker 3: was wages and joblessness which was slowly getting you know,
Speaker 3: had gradually come back from the financial crisis, but not
Speaker 3: but took so long, and people were mined in debt
Speaker 3: and student teds.
Speaker 8: So opioid crisis had plenty of local economy is.
Speaker 3: Going on, So I think Democratic base would have been
Speaker 3: there for it. But Democrats didn't need to go there
Speaker 3: because they would get they would get donations, they get crowds,
Speaker 3: and they would get fawning me media coverage for pointing
Speaker 3: out what a big at Trump was, and so they
Speaker 3: didn't need to go and be like, look, he actually
Speaker 3: said he was going to run on all these things
Speaker 3: to make your life better, and he's not doing that.
Speaker 3: They didn't didn't want to take it seriously. They didn't
Speaker 3: want to take seriously the idea that he actually.
Speaker 8: Ran on that stuff because they thought that the silver
Speaker 8: bullet was their own cultural arguments against Trump, and it wasn't.
Speaker 8: That wasn't enough to persuade voters who have always baked
Speaker 8: into their calculation. And this is what the media doesn't
Speaker 8: understand because the media is pretty friendly with a lot
Speaker 8: of politicians.
Speaker 7: Other voters understand that.
Speaker 8: Politicians are probably bad people, right like, they know that
Speaker 8: you're not convincing people to stop supporting Trump by saying
Speaker 8: he's a bad guy. That's not like a slam dunk
Speaker 8: own on a Trump supporter. They actually are making a
Speaker 8: calculated decision that he was going to disrupt the system.
Speaker 8: And if you're not competing on that field, you're not
Speaker 8: competing at all. You're arguing totally past what you could
Speaker 8: possibly persuade people on yeah.
Speaker 3: And I think also the party's donors are ambivalent about
Speaker 3: any class first messaging.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, of course that.
Speaker 4: They're like, eh, like, can we do some of the
Speaker 4: other stuff. Were you at all or welcome?
Speaker 8: When they did the asterisk after every mention of Trump. Yeah,
Speaker 8: I look back in that and I remember it said
Speaker 8: like Donald Trump is a racist, enophobic, chemophobic bigot and
Speaker 8: something like that, and every mention of Trump it had
Speaker 8: an asterisk and said that. I was like, I mean,
Speaker 8: many people believe all of that is true. I mean,
Speaker 8: you can make arguments about all of that, but it's
Speaker 8: not persuasive. It actually distracts. I don't know, we don't
Speaker 8: have to relitigate that. But it was a good example
Speaker 8: of the approach at the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and I think if we went back
Speaker 3: and looked at it, it didn't. I don't think it
Speaker 3: had any class messaging in it because, like you could
Speaker 3: have led with.
Speaker 4: Donald Trump is a billionaire blah blah, right, But.
Speaker 7: I think the only way that union busting.
Speaker 3: Right only rips off everyone who's ever worked for him.
Speaker 3: I think the only way huff Post was able to
Speaker 3: get away with that, And yeah, I was, I was
Speaker 3: there and involved with it at the time, like journalistically
Speaker 3: was because it it would feel more part as than
Speaker 3: if it was class in a way mm hmm, like
Speaker 3: because what it was doing was pointing to their universal
Speaker 3: American values, which are, you know, equality, justice, we treat
Speaker 3: all people with dignity, civil rights like at least at
Speaker 3: that time, Yeah, everyone believed in the civil rights movement,
Speaker 3: like left to far right like that. The civil not
Speaker 3: not far right, but left to right civil rights movement
Speaker 3: was seen as like a very good thing that was
Speaker 3: that was brought to people who fought for justice, brought
Speaker 3: by people who were.
Speaker 8: Charlie Kirk had not yet discovered Martin Luther King Jr.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, They hadn't gone down different rabbit holes
Speaker 3: and come up with theories and and so it appealed
Speaker 3: to these universal values, whereas if you say, he's a billionaire,
Speaker 3: he wants to rip people off, like that feels that's
Speaker 3: us against them. That's that's more partisan, in not in
Speaker 3: a party sense, but in a.
Speaker 4: We are.
Speaker 3: There's just fundamental disagreements here that we're not going to
Speaker 3: win by persuasion.
Speaker 4: We're going to just have to beat the one percent.
Speaker 3: We're just like or the one percent is going to
Speaker 3: have to beat us, like this is a fight over
Speaker 3: something that makes sense, and so then as journalists that
Speaker 3: that feels like you're now engaging in the you're in
Speaker 3: that fight in a way where if you're just upholding
Speaker 3: universal values, like when the Washing Post says democracy dies
Speaker 3: in darkness, like they can say that and not feel
Speaker 3: partisan because ye, of course we're all for democracy and
Speaker 3: we're all for transparency and we're all against darkness. When
Speaker 3: you say, you know, the one percent are ripping us all.
Speaker 7: Off, I don't think your owners will love it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the point one percent of ripping the one percent.
Speaker 3: Off, yeah yeah, then that feels now you're tangling.
Speaker 8: Which is also the massive like unanswered question to the
Speaker 8: extent that Democrats are able to replicate if they want
Speaker 8: to win, if they put power above everything else, and
Speaker 8: that's not all of them, you know, it's some like
Speaker 8: some Republicans have genuine ideological values that they want to advance.
Speaker 8: But if they just want to win, do they replicate
Speaker 8: the Mom Donnie campaign in congressional races in the midterms,
Speaker 8: for example, in gubernatorial races where you learn from.
Speaker 3: Him and Democrats made affordability the thing that was associated
Speaker 3: with them.
Speaker 8: Right, but they're already getting hammered for what. There are
Speaker 8: already Republicans running ads comparing like random DEM candidates. I
Speaker 8: forget who the first one I saw was, but like
Speaker 8: random D candidates to mom Donnie. I think Glenn Younkin
Speaker 8: said it about the gubernatorial nominee in Virginia, Stanberger, right.
Speaker 4: Exactly, exactly real, Mom Donnie.
Speaker 3: It's suicidal and part of Democrats because the question is,
Speaker 3: how do you define what he stands for to the
Speaker 3: national public before you're then linked with him. And so
Speaker 3: if the national public is like, oh, yeah, Mom Donnie,
Speaker 3: this guy who like ran to make groceries cheaper in
Speaker 3: New York, then when Republicans are like, spamburger is nothing
Speaker 3: but another Mom Donnie, people are like, oh cool, so
Speaker 3: she's also going to make groceries cheaper in Virginia. But
Speaker 3: if Republicans are all saying that he's a Sharia law
Speaker 3: loving jihadist, and then Democrats are also saying that they
Speaker 3: have deep concerns about his use of the word global jihadis,
Speaker 3: and then she and then cures in jail Brennapp apologizes
Speaker 3: because he never said that, but like that, they have
Speaker 3: all these concerns about him. Right, so all the leading
Speaker 3: Democrats still not endorsed him, became Jefferies, Chuck Schumer, Jello Brand.
Speaker 4: And it's Swosey just put Tom Sposey.
Speaker 3: Long just had a op ed in the New York
Speaker 3: Times about how bad he is. And so if Republicans
Speaker 3: are saying he's really awful and like the worst and
Speaker 3: basically a terrorist, and Democrats are saying, the leading Democrats
Speaker 3: are saying, yeah, he's kind of bad, He's not that bad,
Speaker 3: Like Republicans are over the top and then bigoted in
Speaker 3: the way they're talking about him.
Speaker 4: But I do have a lot of concerns about him.
Speaker 3: Then nationally, if you're a voter, you're like, oh, this
Speaker 3: guy seems pretty concerning. You have to actually like engage
Speaker 3: with him or immedia that covers him honestly to get
Speaker 3: the accurate impression.
Speaker 4: And there aren't enough people that do that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean this is from a cure like just
Speaker 8: a purely cynical perspective, but Republicans are basically able to
Speaker 8: do this. With Nancy Pelosi back in twenty ten, socialist
Speaker 8: Nancy Pelosi back in twenty ten, it's when they put
Speaker 8: enough money behind it and enough like what's the right
Speaker 8: word for it, craft into like carvilion public relations efforts
Speaker 8: into it.
Speaker 7: You can.
Speaker 8: It's one of the scary things about politics meediing in general,
Speaker 8: but you can in a red state pretty easily capitalize
Speaker 8: on a mom Donnie narrative. It doesn't mean that mom
Speaker 8: Donnie is in any way a net drag on the
Speaker 8: Democratic Party, but I think it'll probably work for them
Speaker 8: in red states.
Speaker 7: Not so much of Virginia though.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think if Democrats wanted to like avoid
Speaker 3: this problem, yeah, they would say, of course I support
Speaker 3: I'm Donnie and it's call to make groceries cheaper.
Speaker 4: But they just can't do that.
Speaker 8: Just the guy wants to make I don't agree with
Speaker 8: him on everything, but I sure as I'll agree with
Speaker 8: him making groceries cheaper.
Speaker 7: For advice here, I mean, we're always.
Speaker 4: Just giving it out and nobody takes it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, all right, Ryan, let's move on.
Speaker 3: To the ditty tri Yes, so, uh, Sean ditty Collms
Speaker 3: is not walking out of the courthouse a freeman, but
Speaker 3: he thought he might for a second, so he was acquitted.
Speaker 4: We could put this first element up on the screen.
Speaker 3: He was quitted on the most serious charges, the racketeering
Speaker 3: charge and the and the sex trafficking charges. But he
Speaker 3: did get found guilty on two counts of transporting prostitutes.
Speaker 3: He was not he did not get hit with any
Speaker 3: domestic violence charges because they were outside the statute of limitations, right,
Speaker 3: And so did he collapse to the floor and like
Speaker 3: praying do we have that? Do we have that image
Speaker 3: of him like praying? Seat there yet thanking a thank
Speaker 3: to the jurors, and then it did it did seem
Speaker 3: like he felt like he was about to get out,
Speaker 3: and the judge said no, interestingly cited the domestic violence
Speaker 3: that was in the case as the reason why she
Speaker 3: was not giving bail before sentencing or he cheer.
Speaker 4: He the judge the judge, I didn't watch enough of
Speaker 4: the case.
Speaker 3: Which is interesting because clearly he was guilty, it's on video,
Speaker 3: but he was not tried for it. So it's this
Speaker 3: gray area where bail and accusations can have an interplay
Speaker 3: that leads to you being behind chart, behind behind bars.
Speaker 3: But clearly a jury felt that it was not a conspiracy.
Speaker 3: And what what did he had argued or did he's
Speaker 3: lawyers had argued, is that yes, there was a plan
Speaker 3: to have these freak offs.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 3: And they were organized, and in that sense, there was
Speaker 3: a conspiracy because he would tell, hey, you do the drugs,
Speaker 3: you do the.
Speaker 4: Baby oil, you bring the women.
Speaker 3: And he had and he had an overarching kind of
Speaker 3: leverage campaign that he would use with women where some
Speaker 3: would have beginning ten thousand a month and child support others,
Speaker 3: others would have an emotional connection others.
Speaker 4: You know, there's different various ways that he got them involved.
Speaker 4: Plus some you know, just.
Speaker 3: According to them and seems credible fear of violence. So
Speaker 3: there are all these pieces. But he made this they
Speaker 3: made this kind of loophole argument almost that the other
Speaker 3: people were not partners in a conspiracy. There were just
Speaker 3: his flunkies who he paid to do work, and that
Speaker 3: if you could use Rico for this, you could use
Speaker 3: Rico for anything where you didn't, you know, single handedly
Speaker 3: carry out every aspect of the crime, like you know,
Speaker 3: if you go and buy a handgun and then commit
Speaker 3: a crime with.
Speaker 4: It, like.
Speaker 3: And it was just a business transaction with the gun owner,
Speaker 3: like did you conspire with the gun owner even if
Speaker 3: the gun owner knew what you're gonna do? That would
Speaker 3: be and the point is that would be a different
Speaker 3: crime like that, that's the underlying crime, but layering conspiracy
Speaker 3: on top of it doesn't get you there. That That
Speaker 3: is my guess at trying to get into the jurors mindset.
Speaker 4: What what did you think of the response?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I think that.
Speaker 4: What's your response to the jury's response?
Speaker 7: No, I think that's right.
Speaker 8: I think the rico is starting to look like an
Speaker 8: over prosecution. Bundling everything into a rico is starting to
Speaker 8: look like a real mistake.
Speaker 7: And you will be.
Speaker 8: Shocked to learn that one of the leading prosecutors on
Speaker 8: this case is Marine Comy, who is James Commey's daughter.
Speaker 4: Amazing.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's just wild stuff, but it looks like a
Speaker 8: really overconfident prosecution team. To be clear, he could end
Speaker 8: up with twenty years in prison, so he was denied bail.
Speaker 8: He has to stay in prison until his sentencing, which
Speaker 8: is on October third, so he's still got a ways
Speaker 8: to go. But he could still also get twenty.
Speaker 4: Years, right, it's highly probably unlikely.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: So each there's two charges and their ten years maximum. Right,
Speaker 3: So if they were served one after the other and
Speaker 3: both the maximum, then he could get twenty years.
Speaker 4: Right, But.
Speaker 3: This is when sentence and guidelines come in and you
Speaker 3: have to kind of set aside who he is and
Speaker 3: what we know about the case. And pretty sure he's
Speaker 3: the first time offender. Does he have any other charges
Speaker 3: from before?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Does he? What does he have?
Speaker 8: He was? I mean, he's been involved in so many things.
Speaker 4: Which he's got a bunch of lawsuits.
Speaker 8: Well, there was the I'm trying to remember whether he
Speaker 8: got charged.
Speaker 4: For it, but there was Michael j Lo mac is
Speaker 4: already screened mac get.
Speaker 8: Yeah, send this to us, producer back. But there was
Speaker 8: the j Lo shooting. There was the nightclub like fire
Speaker 8: that people died in that he was implicated in.
Speaker 4: Right, did he catch charges on any of that thing?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 7: That's a good question.
Speaker 8: He's, by the way, he is fifty five, So if
Speaker 8: he gets twenty years and serves out twenty years, he'll
Speaker 8: be an old man before he.
Speaker 7: Gets out of prison.
Speaker 4: But my guess is that he definitely will not serve
Speaker 4: all twenty years. I don't think. I don't think even close.
Speaker 3: Even now, there's some indication from the fact that he
Speaker 3: was denied bail here that the judge is going to
Speaker 3: go as hard as they feel like they can get
Speaker 3: away with.
Speaker 4: But I'd be very surprised.
Speaker 8: I think he was acquitted of murder in the first
Speaker 8: I think there was like a big if I'm remember incorrectly,
Speaker 8: there was a big case in the nightclub murder situation.
Speaker 8: This would have been around two thousand and I want
Speaker 8: to say he was acquitted of that. Actually, let's take
Speaker 8: a listen to Megan Kelly's reaction. Followed the case very
Speaker 8: closely and had some legal experts on when the news
Speaker 8: came down, and go ahead and take a look at
Speaker 8: this next club.
Speaker 12: Combs shook his head vigorously and put his hands together
Speaker 12: in prayer. Oh, it's all just so chummy inside the
Speaker 12: courtroom for this disgusting pervert female abuser who I can't
Speaker 12: believe is about j Romar Streets. Again, I'm sorry, I'm
Speaker 12: disgusted by this verdict. This is fucking ridiculous. I just
Speaker 12: find it absolutely outrageous the amount of crime that this
Speaker 12: guy just got away with. I believe he committed arson.
Speaker 12: He definitely battered Cassie. He Jane too. The statute of
Speaker 12: limitations for battery in Los Angeles, California is one year
Speaker 12: one year, So if they didn't charge him for battery
Speaker 12: within one year, and they couldn't because he bought the
Speaker 12: tape and it remained hidden thanks to those security guards
Speaker 12: out there. Then they could never charge him with that. Again,
Speaker 12: there's no question he dragged her back into that hotel room.
Speaker 12: Why wasn't that kidnapping? They only talked about the kidnapping
Speaker 12: of Capricorn Clark, who was his sort of main assistant,
Speaker 12: because she said he grabbed her and made her go
Speaker 12: with him over to kid Cutty's house. There's no question
Speaker 12: he broke into kid Cutty's house in my view, and
Speaker 12: that he opened up the Christmas presidents and locked the
Speaker 12: door in and made a thread. There's no question in
Speaker 12: my mind he was behind the arson of kid Cutty's car.
Speaker 12: And there was proof, plenty of proof to prove that.
Speaker 10: No.
Speaker 12: Okay, there was female fingerprints they found on that, the
Speaker 12: firebomb that was left there, the Molotov cocktail, and the
Speaker 12: prosecution said, there's no question he didn't do it himself.
Speaker 12: But he said I'm going to bomb kid Cutty's car.
Speaker 12: It's in writing. Cassie Ventura emailed her mother saying, oh
Speaker 12: my god, he's threatening to bomb his car. And two
Speaker 12: weeks later it got bombed.
Speaker 5: Oh gee, it was just some.
Speaker 12: Third party who also had it's This is just like
Speaker 12: the proof was there, the beatings, the threats that if
Speaker 12: they didn't go back into those rooms and get off
Speaker 12: with these male escorts, that they were going to get beaten.
Speaker 12: The testimony from that Daniel Phillip, who was the male
Speaker 12: escort who heard Colmb's abusing Cassie behind the door and
Speaker 12: she was screaming, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, as he heard
Speaker 12: him slapping her. Get back out there. She came back out,
Speaker 12: she was shaking. She got back into the escort's lap,
Speaker 12: physically shaking. She was so scared to the point where
Speaker 12: that guy couldn't perform sexually because this was so horrifying
Speaker 12: to him. What in the actual f went on in there?
Speaker 8: Yeah, so I feel like that's probably the general public's reaction.
Speaker 8: It just baffling, and it seems ran like the prosecution
Speaker 8: just I mean, in that clip, at least one of
Speaker 8: the legal experts goes on to kind of blame the jury.
Speaker 8: But I would think that the onus for the failure
Speaker 8: here asked to lie with the prosecution.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, I mean, the they it's very hard to
Speaker 3: lose a federal case. Like it's like they've their conviction
Speaker 3: rate is absolutely through the roof, and.
Speaker 4: So yeah, they they clearly own the blame for this,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 3: And what we didn't cover this trial a whole bunch,
Speaker 3: but whenever we did and would I would look into it.
Speaker 3: I remember, you know, I would think, like they're really
Speaker 3: leaning into the emotional aspect of this. You know, how
Speaker 3: poorly he treated Cassie and and these other women, and
Speaker 3: how just what an absolutely like repulsive lifestyle he was
Speaker 3: leading using violence and emotional manipulation to you know, pull
Speaker 3: these multi day freak coughs off.
Speaker 4: And but I remember thinking every time, like people, but
Speaker 4: where where what are the crimes here? M M.
Speaker 7: Was obvious?
Speaker 3: Yes, the violence, yeah, but then that's out of the
Speaker 3: statute of limitations, right, the drugs no charge, prostitution convicted,
Speaker 3: But like beyond that, like where's the I and trafficking
Speaker 3: is an interesting like yeah concept and charge. It's like
Speaker 3: it's interesting to get if you pay someone, if you
Speaker 3: can pay a prostitute to get in a car, yeah,
Speaker 3: and then go to go to a hotel.
Speaker 4: For a freak cough? Did you traffic them there?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 4: And it's like, what does that mean?
Speaker 8: Yeah, No, I mean that's a really good point. It's
Speaker 8: and so I guess partially another thing is not The.
Speaker 3: Jury was like, that's not trafficking, that's that's paying a prostitute.
Speaker 8: And it's not necessarily easy for the prosecution then to
Speaker 8: build a case based on all and I think a
Speaker 8: lot of it also is him. So he's alleged to
Speaker 8: have drugged people many many times.
Speaker 4: Which would be a crime if they didn't charge.
Speaker 8: That, right, And I think because it looks like they
Speaker 8: were overconfident started bundling things into the Rico case, thinking.
Speaker 7: That they had him right on racketeering because.
Speaker 3: He clearly conspired to organize these freak costs. But the
Speaker 3: jury was like, not really illegal, except that most of
Speaker 3: the pieces within it are actually illegal right within it.
Speaker 8: Yes, And so yeah, we were just looking up his
Speaker 8: criminal history.
Speaker 7: He has been charged many many times.
Speaker 3: He was he never got charged for the nine people dying.
Speaker 3: He should have been charged with some type of negligence there.
Speaker 7: It's a pretty if.
Speaker 4: Everybody probably knows about this case.
Speaker 3: This there was a stampede that a at a event
Speaker 3: that he put on. It's where he knew ninety I've
Speaker 3: got to hear December ninety one, where he knew that
Speaker 3: too many people were there, didn't care, wanted too many
Speaker 3: people to be there for the spectacle. Nine people end
Speaker 3: up dying, doesn't get charged for that. He got convicted
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six, convicted of criminal mischief for threatening a
Speaker 3: photographer with a gun.
Speaker 4: So that's a conviction. That's something that the judge can
Speaker 4: point to.
Speaker 8: That's where he's that's a pretty easy denial of bail predicate, right.
Speaker 3: And then in ninety nine, Combs in his bodyguards are
Speaker 3: charged with attacking this is PBS I'm reading from, or
Speaker 3: attacking Interscope Records, music music executive over dispute over music video.
Speaker 3: He was sentenced to anger and anger management. Course didn't work,
Speaker 3: but that's at least that's something on the record that
Speaker 3: the judge can then point to. December ninety nine, he's
Speaker 3: arrested on gun possession charges for that nightclub shooting that
Speaker 3: you mentioned, where Jennifer Lopez.
Speaker 7: Was in the car.
Speaker 4: Three people got wounded.
Speaker 8: A woman still says that Diddy is the one who
Speaker 8: shot her, right, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are people that say that he was shooting
Speaker 3: and that's that he shot her. He was later charged
Speaker 3: with offering his driver fifty grand to claim ownership of
Speaker 3: the nine millimeter that was found in the car. We
Speaker 3: know from this trial that him offering to pay people
Speaker 3: to get out of trouble is something that he does,
Speaker 3: so that's a quite credible charge there. However, he was
Speaker 3: then acquitted of all charges. Well, Shine took the took
Speaker 3: the fall for that. So the judge, can you point
Speaker 3: to the arrest, but you're not supposed to. If you're
Speaker 3: arrested and convicted, you're not. That's not really supposed to
Speaker 3: factor into your sentencing because you're supposed to have been
Speaker 3: found Like innocent is supposed to mean innocent doesn't always
Speaker 3: mean that, but that's how that's what's supposed to mean.
Speaker 3: Then he got arrested in twenty fifteen. He looks like
Speaker 3: he got in a fight at a UCLA game where
Speaker 3: his son was playing football, but the charges were dropped.
Speaker 8: This is why fifty cent referred to him yesterday as
Speaker 8: the gay John Gotti.
Speaker 4: Nothing's sticking to him, Teon Teflon Diddy, Yeah, it's all
Speaker 4: that baby oil.
Speaker 7: Yes, he charges slippery, yeah.
Speaker 4: Slip right off.
Speaker 3: And then these charges so he has not zero criminal record.
Speaker 3: He has a very long criminal record, most of it
Speaker 3: ending with acquittals or like misdemeanor stuff. So that's why
Speaker 3: it's going to be a real stretch for the judge
Speaker 3: to hit him with the maximum. And even if she does,
Speaker 3: he'll appeal this, so I expect he'll be walking free
Speaker 3: in a matter of several years.
Speaker 4: Five to ten max.
Speaker 7: Unbelievable. Well, on that note, Ryan.
Speaker 3: And a lot of people took a lot of risks
Speaker 3: coming forward, come forward, Yeah, that they are suffering greatly
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Oh my gosh. The trial was just awful.
Speaker 10: It was.
Speaker 7: It was one of those ones.
Speaker 8: It was just hard to follow because Cassie was testifying
Speaker 8: about all this while she was pregnant. It was just
Speaker 8: a really really really dark trial. And I forget I
Speaker 8: want to say.
Speaker 7: This was on Hulu.
Speaker 8: Someone did a fantastic documentary into the sort of influences
Speaker 8: emotion on that sort of forged did he like?
Speaker 7: How did he become who he became?
Speaker 8: And it is just incredibly sad and dark. So I
Speaker 8: hope that there's at least some closure for people who
Speaker 8: suffered from this.
Speaker 3: And I was saying yesterday I actually liked doing the
Speaker 3: show without the laptop here because fewer distractions.
Speaker 4: On the other hand, when it comes to something.
Speaker 3: I really don't remember, which is like Diddy's criminal record,
Speaker 3: actually helpful, not.
Speaker 7: At the top of your mind to have it here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I knew it'd been in and out of trouble,
Speaker 3: but yeah, as so my memory actually served mostly correct
Speaker 3: that he's basically gotten out of all the jams that
Speaker 3: he's been in.
Speaker 7: Yeah, but there's so many of them, a lot.
Speaker 8: I think that's when you look it up, you're just like,
Speaker 8: holy smoked, it is.
Speaker 7: It's gotty esque.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is so no Friday show, It's July fourth,
Speaker 3: will be independent of our laptops in the morning, Happy independence.
Speaker 3: Say to everybody, I hope you enjoy the fireworks or
Speaker 3: a barbecue or whatever you're up to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll be back on somebody will be back on Monday.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think Crystal and Soccer back. There you go,
Speaker 8: so great news, get get rid of us.
Speaker 4: Yeah we promised they'll be here.
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, no, we don't, can't make promise.
Speaker 4: They're gonna try very hard they will be Yeah.
Speaker 7: Well maybe they'll get caught up in the system like
Speaker 7: we did.
Speaker 4: There you go, all right, all right, see you guys.
Speaker 4: Then