1 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WIKA F Daily with 2 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording live from my Brooklyn silarium. 3 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: Look at the plant babies, folks. I got to tell 4 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: you that each and every day I kind of I 5 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: wake up and I peruse the news as one does. 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I go to Twitter, I go to the New York Times, 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: I go to Wall Street Journal, I go to Slade, 8 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: I go to Medium. I go to a range of 9 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: places in order to process what is going on today 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: and every day. I got to tell you, since Trump 11 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: left office, I have gone to these places waiting waiting 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: for the fucking headline that says that Donald Trump and 13 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: all of his criminal assists are being indicted, that they're 14 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: actually going to be criminally charged. Do you know that 15 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has been sued a major multiple times, investigated 16 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: multiple times, he had if you remember, Trump University was 17 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: shut down by Attorney general State Attorney General Letitia James 18 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: here in New York, who is now running for governor. 19 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: And yet every day that I wait for this breaking news, 20 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: I wait for these headlines, they never come. So last 21 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: week we had an announcement from the Manhattan District Attorney's 22 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: office that they were going to be in paneling a 23 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: second grand jury right to investigate Trump. Now, what you 24 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: will learn from my conversation with our friend Glenn Kirshner 25 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: is at sivance. The prior Manhattan District attorney had him 26 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: paneled a jury for six months. We've talked about that 27 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: on woke AF and I believed, or at least I hoped, 28 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: during that six months that we were going to see 29 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: a barrage of fucking indictments. Now, while I guess we 30 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: can feel encouraged ish that there is a second grand 31 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: jury that is going to be in operation because there's 32 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: just so much information to go through, I just wonder, 33 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: this is my real question, folks, how much information, how 34 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: much evidence is required to indict a wealthy white man 35 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: in America? Because let's just be fucking honest. As we 36 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: are watching these insurrectionist cases, as we are watching the 37 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: Kyle Rittenhouse case, as we are seeing all of this transpire, 38 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: what it proves right in this country is that black 39 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: lives really do not matter at the only people BIPOC lives, 40 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: Black Indigenous people of color BIPOC lives don't fucking matter. 41 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: Low income lives right do not matter that the only 42 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: thing that matters in America is the one currency that 43 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 1: none of us, right who were not born white can use, 44 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: which is your whiteness. And then you add your maleness 45 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: your wealth on top of that, and you're in a 46 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: league all of your own. You're in a league that 47 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: the system was built to protect. Right, we have to 48 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: understand sometimes and really get back to the there there 49 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: that these systems that we have just understood as our norms, right, 50 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: as understood as the ways to keep us safe. Like 51 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: the lie that we tell ourselves about police officers right 52 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: in their presence and the fact that you know the 53 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: police are there to keep us safe, and that the 54 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: only reason why crime goes up or crime goes down 55 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: is because of police presence, which is a lie. Right 56 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: we say this. There are reports and documentation to the 57 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: contrary that say that more police does not equal more safety. 58 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: But you see Democrats get caught up in their desire 59 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: to seem tough on crime. That's how we got the 60 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: fucking crime bill that put generations of black people and 61 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: brown people in prison. Right, That's where we got maximum 62 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: minimum sentences from is because Democrats, after being told by 63 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: the Republicans that they were soft on crime that they 64 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: came out with this robust people. Hey, we're going to 65 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: lock up more black and brown people than you could 66 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: ever do. Right, will show you realizing that they're all 67 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: functioning on the same foundation of white supremacy. Right, So 68 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: here we have a po I love evidence, I mean 69 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: the evidence against Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, Mark Meadows in 70 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: their own fucking words. Right, let's just look at the 71 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: pandemic first, right, which, by the way, nobody is on 72 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: trial for in this country. We talked about the Brazilian 73 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: president Bulcinato, right, and the fact that his Senate wants 74 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: to investigate him and bring criminal charges because of the 75 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: neglect that led to the hundreds of thousands of deaths 76 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: in Brazil due to COVID. But there's no one in 77 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: these United States that are looking into bringing charges right 78 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: of criminal negligence right against Donald Trump and the Trump 79 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: administration for what he told Bob Woodward and in fact, 80 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: the world after we listened to the audio transcript that 81 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: he fucking knew about the coronavirus, knew how deadly it was, right, 82 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: knew that it was more deadly than the flu, knew 83 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: how it could be contracted and then even after expressly 84 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: saying that in his own fucking words, that motherfucker isn't 85 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: on trial, right, no one has even brought it up, 86 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: because I honestly believe that Democrats and Republicans want to 87 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: just turn the fucking page whatever that means. You know, 88 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: they want to turn the page on Trump, and oh, well, 89 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: you know it's because Terry mcculliffe talked about Trump, which 90 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: is why he lost in Virginia. No, Terry mcculliffe lost 91 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: in Virginia because Democrats don't have any fucking policy to 92 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: stand on. Terry mcculliffe lost in Virginia because he ran 93 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: a lackluster, uninspiring campaign, because he was a lackluster, uninspiring candidate. 94 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: So they make up these excuses in their head, like, oh, no, 95 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: we can't talk about these very important issues that have 96 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: to do with the security of our democracy or the 97 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: security of our people, right because that would be seen 98 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: as political. Well, in my conversation with Glenn, Glenn makes 99 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: a really good point, do you know what is also political? 100 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: Having a stack of fucking evidence in front of you 101 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: that you refuse to actually look at, that you refuse 102 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: to do your part in upholding the law right and 103 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: really securing faith in our criminal justice system knowing that 104 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: it is an unjust system by going after people regardless 105 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: of what the fallout would be, because you see, what 106 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: Glenn Will tell us is that there is really no 107 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: difference right now between how this current Department of Justice 108 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: is acting right or their inaction, and then the actions 109 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: that were taken in the Bar Department of Justice. You see, 110 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: they were both being political. Barr was playing the wolf 111 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: and the clean up guy for Donald Trump's criminality and 112 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: using the Department of Justice as an extension of the 113 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: Trump campaign of the Trump administration. Well, Merrick Garland's refusal 114 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: to act right now given all of the shit in 115 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: front of him because of whatever we want to call it, 116 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: prosecutor prosecutorial timidity, or just playing bullshit and fear is 117 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: also political. Being inactive in the pursuit of justice because 118 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: you're worried about what other people, what the other party 119 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: is going to say about you, doesn't make you any 120 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: less political than a Bill Barr, who used the full 121 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: power of the same agency in order to protect a 122 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: mob fucking boss that was elected president of the United States. 123 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 1: So my feeling here is that once again we see 124 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: over and over and over and over and over again 125 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: that so long as you're white, so long as you 126 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: are male and wealthy and powerful and connected, you're safe. 127 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: You're good. Right, Because let me tell you how little 128 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: evidence would have been needed to throw a black Stephen 129 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: Bannon in jail. Let me tell you how little evidence 130 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: Republicans would have needed if Obama right had done a 131 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: quarter of the things that Donald Trump had done. Like, 132 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: let us all take the mind trip right back to 133 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: the end of Bill Clinton's presidency, where he was impeached 134 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: for a blowjob. Right, that blowjob didn't in danger the 135 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: American people, It didn't kill four hundred thousand people, It 136 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: didn't put us in precarious situations. It didn't endear our 137 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: long sworn enemies. Right, it didn't do anything except make 138 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: us think like, oh, well, I guess the President of 139 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: the United States really is a human being and is fallible. Right, 140 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: That's what it made me think. Because you had a 141 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: political party at one time that always wanted to claim 142 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: the fucking moral high ground. But they can't do that 143 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: anymore because of who they associate themselves with. But because 144 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: Democrats don't provide any messaging to the contrary, they're still 145 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: able to pretend to perform morality. But here's the thing. 146 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: We know that Donald Trump is a criminal, But what 147 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: I recognize is that the only time that we ever 148 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: in this country throw the book at somebody, want to 149 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: stomp them into the ground and want to put them 150 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: under the jail, is if they are black and brown 151 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: and poor, then we're going to do everything in our power. Right. 152 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: Then we can kick indoors, we can pull you out, right, 153 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: we can parade you in front of the press, right, 154 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: we can throw red meat, we can make all of 155 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: the headlines, but we never do that. You know, one 156 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: of the insurrectionists, and I can't even be troubled to 157 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: remember the woman's name at the time, but she had 158 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: posted on social media that after the insurrection, she's like, 159 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: I'm not going to jail. None of us are going 160 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: to jail, right, because she knew that her whiteness, right 161 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: and apparently her white woman's tears, We're going to protect 162 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: her because why should she ever think otherwise. Now she 163 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: is in fact going to jail, right. But the way 164 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: that we are handling this insurrection with kid gloves, the 165 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: way that we are and everybody wants to say, oh, well, 166 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: we just want to get things right. But it's so 167 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: funny to me how it's we can move with the 168 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: speed of light to lock black and brown people up, 169 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: because that's where this country believes that black and brown 170 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: people belong. Right. But we got to be super duper sure. 171 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: We gotta dot our eyes and cross all of our teas, 172 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: and underline our words and use highlighters and make absolutely 173 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: sure that we would never unjustly send a white woman, 174 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: a white person to prison, even though they tell us 175 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: via social media, they tell us via their own conversations 176 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: with reporters on podcasts just how fucking criminal they are. 177 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: But oh, we don't know what's in their heart. We 178 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: need more evidence. If the past year hasn't shown you 179 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: how unjust our criminal justice system is, how unbalanced it is, 180 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: how it is fixed and rigged. You want to talk 181 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: about a system that is rigged, It's not elections, No, 182 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: it's our criminal justice system. Right. There are stories left 183 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: and right about innocent black people being in jail, not 184 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: being able to afford a lawyer. The Caliph Browder story 185 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: of being in Rikers for three years, beaten, abused, right 186 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: for thought that he stole a backpack. There was no 187 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: fucking evidence, but he sat in Rikers for three years. 188 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: We have all the evidence in the world against Steve Bannon, 189 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: Mark Meadows, Donald Trump, Don McGann, all of them, Loui 190 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: de Joy, but we're waiting for what some fucking magic unicorn. 191 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: What I want people to see if nothing else, is 192 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:13,359 Speaker 1: that the reason why folks march, the reason why they protest, 193 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: the reason why they get to a place in a 194 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: state where they just want to burn shit down literally 195 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: is because of this. Because as a person of color, 196 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: you feel like you were screaming into a fucking void 197 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: every single day, waiting for a white person to pay attention, 198 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: waiting for somebody to be like, oh you know what 199 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: racism does exist? Do you know what it is? Actually 200 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: in every part of every system, every agency, every aspect 201 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: of your every day. It is so fucking exhausting to 202 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: do this, to have these conversations all the goddamn time, 203 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: and people like on Twitter, they will still say, oh, 204 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: well that's not the case, that's not true, And I'm like, 205 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: fuck you, go follow somebody else, go spread your bullshit 206 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: somewhere else, because I'm not buying it. Because we can 207 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: all see those of us with real, like thought, real 208 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: brains in our heads that haven't had a lobotomy by 209 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: this cultish white supremacist party know exactly what is happening 210 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: here or what is not happening. And it's infuriating because 211 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: if you are not mad, right, if your blood does 212 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: not boil right now, then you are not paying attention. 213 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: But I know that you guys are the wokes of 214 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: the woke, and what I ask is that you share 215 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: these sentiments everywhere and anywhere, because it is going to 216 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: be the power of the people that is going to 217 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: get things done, if at all, because we shore as 218 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: fuck cannot rely on agencies on our government to do 219 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: what is necessary because they're too busy pandering, right, They're 220 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: too busy performing outrage instead of actually being outraged. Coming 221 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: up next, dear friends, is my conversation with our favorite 222 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor and yours, Glenn Kershner, will be up next. 223 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: I am so excited because there's been some news, some 224 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: actual movement, right. I don't know if it's good news. 225 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's bad news. And to help 226 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: us break it down all the legal news, as we 227 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: do every single week, is our friend MSNBC legal analyst 228 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: and contributor and host of Justice Matters, Glenn Kirshner Glenn, Okay, 229 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: So we've had an election, we have a new Manhattan 230 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: DA here, and my hope was that they were going 231 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: to pick off, pick up where side Vance has left off. 232 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: Announcement came out this week saying that the Manhattan District 233 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: Attorney's off is seeking a second grand jury looking into 234 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, the Trump organization. Is this a good thing 235 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: or a bad thing, because, as our friend Ellie Mstall 236 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: has said recently, he goes, you know, Ken Star called 237 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: a called the grand jury for one thing and ended 238 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: up with a dress. So how is it that we 239 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: are having to call in a second grand jury here? 240 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: And what does that mean? So I think the most 241 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: accurate answer is we don't know, right, because there are 242 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: a number of reasons to call in a second grand jury. 243 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: So let me just kind of break down the grand 244 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: jury practice. Generally, in some jurisdictions, jurisdictions, grand juries only 245 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: sit for about four to six weeks, and I think 246 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: that's the ordinary practice in New York. So we all 247 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: sat up and took note when sie Vance requested a 248 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: special grand jury to sit for six months. What that 249 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: tells me is he wanted consistency with the same grand 250 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: jurs over a six month period so he could present 251 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: the Trump organization case to them, the Weisselburg case to them, 252 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: perhaps the Donald Trump case to them. Well, we got 253 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: two out of the three, right, We got the organization indicted, 254 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: we got Weisselberg indicted. And now there are a couple 255 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: of things going on. One, that six month grand jury 256 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: is coming to the end of its term. The logical 257 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: thing to do, if you were engaged in the exact 258 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: same investigation with the same scope and the same targets, 259 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: would be to request and extension of that same grand jury. 260 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: That's not what they're doing. They're requesting a separate new 261 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: grand jury. Now they could be doing that for a 262 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: couple of reasons. It could simply be procedural. The six 263 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: month grand jury, let me tell you, it's an imposition. 264 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: When we bring citizens in to spend six months of 265 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: their lives sitting as grand juris. It may be that 266 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: they're they're worn out, and they now need to impanel 267 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: a new batch of grand jurors. The other possibility is 268 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: that sometimes when you investigate in a grand jury, you 269 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: end up presenting them a lot of information that ultimately 270 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: you're not going to use to ask them to vote 271 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: out indictments, and you don't want to taint the indictment, 272 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: so you impanel a second grand jury. You only present 273 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: to them the information you want them to have available 274 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: to vote on indictments. That way, you can't be accused 275 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: of sort of poisoning the well when that ultimate indictment 276 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: is returned. Let me maybe a parallel in trial practice. 277 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: All the time, we have people blurt stuff out that's 278 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: inadmissible in front of the jury. What does the judge do? 279 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm instructing you to strike that from 280 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: your mind. It may play no role in your deliberations. 281 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: It was inadmissible information, and we assume the jurors follow 282 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: the judge's instructions. Well, there really is no comparable protection 283 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: in the grand jury when a whole bunch of information 284 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: and evidence comes out that we as prosecutors ultimately don't 285 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: want the grand jury to consider when they're voting out indictments. 286 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: So it could be procedural, it could be substitutive, it 287 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: could be a combination of the two. We don't know 288 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: what we don't know, so we're just trying to read 289 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: t leaves at this point. So let me ask you 290 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: some rudimentary questions, right for those of us who are 291 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: not lawyers but like to play them on TV. So 292 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: let me ask you this. When you have when Civans 293 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: had this first grand jury that was sitting for six months, 294 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: are we starting from scratch with the second grand jury? 295 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: Because you have all of this information, all of this 296 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: investigation that has happened over this time with this group 297 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: of what twelve people I'm assuming right, and the jurors 298 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: usually have about twenty three, okay people, and they and 299 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: they twelve of them have to vote in favor of 300 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: an indictment. Okay, So we have these twenty three people 301 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: that now have this six month wealth of knowledge. What 302 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: happens with that versus this new batch of twenty three, 303 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,479 Speaker 1: you know, randomly selected people that are now going to 304 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 1: sit like this is the I'm interested in understanding the 305 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: continuity of how one puts together a case of this 306 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: scope with this many people. Great question, Danielle. That's one 307 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: of the reasons federal grand juries sit for about eighteen 308 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: months at a time, maybe a couple of days a week, 309 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: and then we can extend that grand jury until our 310 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: investigation is complete and we can ask for final indictments 311 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: to be returned. But in the state system, when you've 312 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: got grand juries for you know, six weeks in a climate, 313 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: it's always a new batch of people coming in. How 314 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: do we achieve continuity? Here's how. Let's assume that this 315 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: six month grand jury is just worn out and they 316 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: need to impanel a new group of people. What prosecutors 317 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: will do is they will take the transcripts from the 318 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: prior grand jury that's at for six months and heard 319 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: maybe two hundred witnesses. They will present them to the 320 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: second grand jury, often in summarized fashion, or they won't 321 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: present them at all. Maybe a hundred of those witnesses 322 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: really didn't add much of substance to the indictment mix, 323 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: so there's no need to represent that information. So there 324 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: are ways to represent information, even in summarized form, to 325 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: the incoming grand jury, to bring them up to speed quickly, 326 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: so you don't have to end up starting over from scraps. 327 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, So this makes more sense to me 328 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: and is more clarifying. Now talk to us just for 329 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: folks again, because I find this all very interesting. You know, 330 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: many of us have gone through what it would be 331 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: like to be on a regular jury. Right, we go 332 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: in for every duty, you're selected, you're not selected. In 333 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: part of the Washington Post um coverage of this of 334 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: this m second grand jury coming on, they're telling us 335 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: that these folks will be coming in three days a week, 336 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: um over the next you know, several several weeks. What 337 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: is it? What are some of the differences that we 338 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: understand between what many of us have been called into 339 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: to under you know, a regular I'll just call it 340 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: a regular jury selection versus a grand jury of this scope. 341 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: And are these people because they're not being sequestered right 342 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: like there, it's not like the movie Runaway Jury, which 343 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: is one of my favorites. It's not like you're being 344 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: sequestered away from family and friends for months. You're going 345 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: home and you're kind of going into this part time 346 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: job three days a week. So how does that play 347 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: out for the for these people? So? Um, yeah, we 348 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: have much more control over trial juries because the judge 349 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: instructs them that, you know, listen, under the penalties of contempt, 350 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: you are required to follow the court's instructions like you 351 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: may not discuss this case while it is ongoing. Until 352 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: it's concluded. You can't discuss it with anybody, not your friends, 353 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: not your family. Why because if you go home and 354 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: you exchange ideas and information about the evidence, you're going 355 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: to bring their ideas and their perspectives into the case. 356 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: And that's improper because they're not sitting there listening to 357 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: the evidence. So we try to replicate that in the 358 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: grand jury because remember, the grand jury is an arm 359 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: of the court, it's not the arm of the prosecutor. 360 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: So when grand jurors are in processed after the court 361 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: you know, brings them in for grand jury service, they 362 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: do get all of the standard instructions, many that are 363 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: that are the same as the instructions we give to 364 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: trial jury. So you know, they understand that they are 365 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: not to speak about the investigation outside the four walls 366 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: of the grand jury room because it's a secret proceeding 367 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: by law for lots of good reasons, but it is 368 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: a little bit less controlled, so we often have to 369 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: rely on the you know, the good sense and the 370 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: ethics of the grand jurors. I will tell you, after 371 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: thirty years of going in and out of grand jury rooms. 372 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: My take is that grand jurors take their responsibilities very seriously. 373 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: Every once in a while there is a breach. Information 374 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: leaks out, and then we have to investigate did it 375 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: come from a grand jur because that could be a 376 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: prosecutable offense if a grand jury, If a grand jury 377 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: leaked information, so it's a pretty serious affair, but it's 378 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: far less controlled or controllable then a trial jury is. 379 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: So because there's no judge in the grand jury. It's 380 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: just the grand jurors, the prosecutor, the witness, and a 381 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: court reporter taking everything down. It really is our responsibility 382 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: as the prosecutors to not only present the case fully 383 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: and fairly and honestly to the grand jury, but and 384 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: this is going to sound perhaps incongruous to use a 385 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: big word, but we are also the legal advisors to 386 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: the grand jurors. So, for example, if I'm asking a 387 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: grand jury to return a first degree premeditated murder indictment, 388 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: I am also responsible for explaining the elements of the offense, 389 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: explaining the law, explaining any self defense angle that may 390 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: have arisen during the course of the grand jury presentation. 391 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: I have to do that honestly, and you know, we're 392 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: kind of left to the goodwill and the good ethics 393 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: of the prosecutors to make sure they fulfill all of 394 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: those responsibilities. So let me let's switch gears for a moment, 395 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: because you know I am one of ye of little patience. Right, 396 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: Let's let me be clear that since you know, the election, 397 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: I have just been waiting with bated breath, as we 398 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: have for the past two almost two years that we 399 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: have been talking for the parade, you know what I'm 400 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 1: talking about, the indictment parade. So Donald Trump has been 401 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: investigated at this point, has been investigated hundreds of times 402 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: right in New York alone, and nothing has ever happened. 403 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 1: You know, he's a criminal. I know he's a criminal. 404 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: We know he surrounds himself with himself with criminals. Why 405 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: why have we seen nothing yet? Why are we still 406 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: in what I will refer to Glenn as the fact 407 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: finding stage instead of moving this forward, and you know, subpoenas, 408 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: indictments coming left and right, like is it because he's 409 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: the president, is because he's a rich white man in America? 410 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: Both of those things can be true at the same time. 411 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: But why is this taking forever? In a day the 412 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: only explaination I have is that we are suffering from 413 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: the curse of prosecutorial timidity. Nobody wants to be the 414 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: first prosecutor to charge a former president criminally. I predict Danielle, 415 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: everybody is going to want to be the second prosecutor 416 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: to charge Donald Trump, because then they will not suffer 417 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: all of the criticism and that white hot glare of 418 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, every camera and every journalist focusing on who 419 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: the first prosecutor is, the first prosecutor's office to charge 420 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: criminally a former president. Prosecutors can be overly timid. I've 421 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: seen it federally, I've seen it locally. Nobody ever accused 422 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: me of that. Maybe, you know, maybe I'm a little 423 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: too aggressive in the eyes of some. But my responsibility 424 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: is if that I have evidence of probable cause that 425 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: a crime has been committed, and I have enough evidence 426 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: to identify the perpetrator, and especially if public safety is 427 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: at risk, I have a duty to the people. I 428 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: took a sworn oath. It's my job to hold the 429 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: perpetrator accountable if I can honestly in accordance with the 430 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: evidence and protect the community in the process. America is 431 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: not being protected, No, quite the opposite, Donald Trump is 432 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: out there recruiting his second batch of insurrectionists. Think about this, Danielle, 433 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: the message that is being sent by a Department of 434 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: Justice that at this moment is falling down on the job. 435 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: I still believe we're going to see federal indictments and 436 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: state indictments, but the walls have kind of stopped closing in, 437 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: and they need to start creeping in again toward that 438 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: parade that you talked about. But think about this. If 439 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: you are tomorrow's dictator, you're an aspiring autocrat. You now 440 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: have a precedent. Here's what the precedent is. Let's see. 441 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: I can try to overthrow our democracy and do it 442 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: with a group of thousands and thousands of angry insurrectionists 443 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: that I tell to go attack the capital, Go stop 444 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: what's going on in the capitol, go overturn the elections results, 445 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: and I will either succeed and then I'm the autocrat, 446 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: and then I have no need for coequal branches of government. 447 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: I have no need for journalisms that criticize me. I'll 448 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: be taking care of all that. Or if I fail 449 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: in my attempt to overthrow the government, what will I face. 450 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: Let's see, I'll get another eight months, ten months, a year, 451 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: maybe more, to amass a second army of insurrectionists and 452 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: do it all over again. That is the message that 453 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: the Department of Justice has sent to the next aspiring dictator, 454 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: and that is why we are kind of hanging by 455 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: a thread as a democracy. I still think we're going 456 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: to get there, but we should have gotten there six, eight, 457 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: ten months ago. You know, one of the questions that 458 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: has been asked on Twitter by myself and by many 459 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: other people is also why the hell isn't Steve Bannon 460 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: in jail? Like Steve? We have Steve Bannon on tape 461 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: in his own words talking about the convening the war room, 462 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: right that they had put together ahead of one six. 463 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: We have Steve Bannon in his own words, right. We 464 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: know that folks were telling insurrectionists, we'll give you a blanket. 465 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: Pardon Mark Meadows being one of those people. Again, these 466 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: people out loud in their own words, Glenn like, how 467 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: much more evidence is required to put wealthy white men 468 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: criminals in jail. I'm just like, it's to me it 469 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: is mannening. But again, I am looking at this from 470 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: the outside of the system, not being an attorney. So 471 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: tell me, I mean, am I being crazy like feeling 472 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: you know that I'm trying to move the machine faster 473 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: than it should go? Or if this were anybody else, 474 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: if this were you and me, would we be in 475 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: jail right now? Yeah, we would be. And the same 476 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: holds true for how the insurrection cases are being handled. 477 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: If the insurrectionists were people of color, boy, it would 478 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: be a whole different ball game. Steve Bannon, We're now 479 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: on day fifteen of the Bannon indictment watch. He was 480 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: referred for prosecution fifteen days ago. And you and I 481 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: have talked about you know, there is a historical precedent, 482 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: right when in nineteen eighty three, a Reagan era EPA 483 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: official named Rita Lavelle was found in contempt of Congress 484 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: and referred for prosecution at nine days later, nine days later, 485 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: she was indicted by the US Attorney's Office in DC. 486 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: That's a benchmark. That's a precedent of a factual, actual precedent, 487 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: not a legal precedent. There's no reason Steve Bannon is 488 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: not already a defendant in court other than the curse 489 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: of the kind of prosecutorial timidity that I talked about. 490 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: But Here's here's what the consequences of that one are. 491 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: We talked about the consequences of not acting against Donald Trump. 492 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: Representative Thompson just announced that he has signed and they're 493 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: in the process of issuing twenty more subpoenas well. How 494 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: are those twenty recipients of those subpoenas going to respond? Well, look, 495 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: Steve Bannon hasn't been held accountable, So I like my chances. 496 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: What has happened over the last couple of weeks. Mark 497 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: Meadows is backed up. He's now not really cooperating. He's 498 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 1: giving the House Select Committee a hard time over his subpoena. 499 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: Why because the Department of Justice is failing to promote 500 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: the rule of law as something people need to care about. Right, So, 501 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: and what the Department of Justice is also accomplishing by 502 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: failing to timely indict Steve Bannon is there undercutting Congress's 503 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: authority in every conceivable way. How this branch of government, 504 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: the executive branch, which is where the Department of Justice resides, 505 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: feels completely comfortable letting Congress down when Congress is trying 506 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: to investigate the most serious attack on our democracy in 507 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: our nation's history. That blows my mind, it blows. And 508 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: I know Adam Schiff keeps talking and coming a little 509 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: bit farther. He was on with Don Lemon night before 510 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: last saying, looks like he wasn't definitive. Looks like the 511 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: Department of Justice is going to move out on prosecuting Bannon. Well, 512 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: how about we see him put in cuffs, how about 513 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: we see him processed, how about we see him presented 514 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: in court and have to enter a plate. Come on, 515 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: let's get the Justice show on the road. For God's sakes, 516 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: I mean, don't we have the law on our side? 517 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: Like I know that Republicans they operate outside of the 518 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: law and don't care. And frankly they can because what 519 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: we are seeing is that no one holds them accountable, 520 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: so they can continue doing that. Democrats, on the other hand, 521 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: clutch the law right as if it's magically always going 522 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 1: to be on our side. And so my sense here though, 523 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: is literally, we have these people in their own words, 524 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: we have them on audio, we have their transcripts, like 525 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: we don't have to assume intent they said what it was. So, 526 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 1: in your mind, is there any real legal reason other 527 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: than political retribution? Why this Department of Justice isn't moving 528 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: with haste. The only thing I can come up with, 529 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: apart from the timidity of prosecutors, which is a real thing, 530 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: is that Merrick Garland's Department of Justice doesn't want to 531 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: be perceived as political. The problem is when you fail 532 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: to bring charges that are supported by the facts and 533 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: the law, you are being political, right, making a decision 534 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: based on the facts and the law, You're making it 535 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: on something else. And that's something else is political right, 536 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: And I have been saying recently, if they continue to 537 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: fail to enforce the rule of law against Trump and 538 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 1: his criminal associates, then frankly, they're no better than Bill 539 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: Barr and Donald Trump because they used the Department of 540 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: Justice for political reasons overtly, you know, they punished Donald 541 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: Trump's perceived enemies by weaponizing the Department of Justice, and 542 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: they rewarded Donald Trump's criminal associates like you know, Bannon 543 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 1: and Flynn and Roger Stone and the rest of these knuckleheads. 544 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: It's a nice word for them. So Bill Barr and 545 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 1: Donald Trump politicize the Department of Justice in the worst way. 546 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: If Marrick Arland's Department of Justice continues to fail to 547 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: charge people, even though the facts and the law support 548 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: criminal charges, they will be making political decisions. And that 549 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: is just as dangerous and damaging to our democracy because 550 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: all that's doing is you're giving it all over to 551 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and company to do it a second time. 552 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: In the second time, Danielle, the coup will not fail. 553 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: I mean, that is what I know to be true. 554 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we're watching it, you know, I keep saying it. 555 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,919 Speaker 1: Bill Maher, I don't agree with him on a whole 556 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: host of things, but when he referred to this as 557 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: a slow moving coup, right, that's what it is. We 558 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: may have swept the people away from the steps of 559 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: the Capitol Building, but they're still They're still in action, right, 560 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 1: They're still planning and moving. And this administration, this Department 561 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: of Justice, is not moving with the sense of urgency 562 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: like our democracy is at stake. And I'm I'm and 563 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: I know that I'm no longer crazy because folks like 564 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: you and other brilliant legal minds are saying the same thing. 565 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,760 Speaker 1: Our constitution is in jeopardy, Our democracy is in jeopardy. Um. Finally, Glenn, 566 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: you were able to to hear was it a case? 567 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: Was it an insurrection? It's inside the courtroom listening to 568 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: Trump's lawyers like in real time. Tell us about that 569 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: before you go. Yeah, So yesterday I was in my 570 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: old stomping ground. I went to the Federal court in Washington, 571 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: DC and got to see my old adversary and friend, 572 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: Judge Tanya chut who is the federal judge presiding over 573 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: the case where Trump brought a suit to try to 574 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: stop the House Select Committee from getting tons of incriminating 575 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: information about what he was doing on January sixth and 576 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: his responsibility for the insurrection. So I used to try 577 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: murder cases against now Judge Chutkin decades ago, and we 578 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: still have a great relationship, professional relationship. And so I 579 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: watched her just completely eviscerate Donald Trump's lawyer, a guy 580 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: named Justin Clark. I mean, you know who is going 581 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 1: to represent Donald Trump when he chronically fails to pay 582 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: his lawyers, Well, you're gonna get Justin Clark. And so 583 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: it was really a legal bloodbath because every argument Trump's 584 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 1: lawyer tried to make, saying that the National Archives shouldn't 585 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: give over all this damaging information about my client to 586 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: the House Select Committee, Judge Chutkin just kind of chopped 587 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: it down like like firewood. It was. It was really 588 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: fun to watch. Now. She was entirely professional, but um, 589 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: you know when they would make claims like well, judge, 590 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 1: judge chuckin, you have to look at every single one 591 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: of the thousands of documents and assess whether it should 592 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,839 Speaker 1: be turned over or not. She said, okay, one, do 593 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: you have any legal authority? Is there a single case 594 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: that stands for that proposition? The lawyer said, okay. So, 595 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: other than slowing the process to a snail's pace her term, 596 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: what would it accomplish Nothing? It was so clear, Danielle, 597 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: this is another bogus lawsuit filed by a nefarious litigant, 598 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, to simply try to run out the clock. 599 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: And here is the biggest question, and I think the 600 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: courts will have to answer, well, the courts can continue 601 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 1: to allow themselves to be weaponized by letting Donald Trump 602 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: run out the clock for weeks and months and years, 603 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: or will the courts have learned their lesson from how 604 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: they've been played by Donald Trump over and over and 605 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: over again over the last four and five years. Because 606 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: Donald Trump doesn't bring meritorious lawsuits, he brings bogus lawsuits 607 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: because he knows he can then use them to run 608 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: out the clock. Now, Judge Chukin would have none of it. 609 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: I mean, she said this hearing at light speed, and 610 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 1: she said, oh, you're gonna have my ruling expeditiously because 611 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: I know the first batch of information goes from the 612 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 1: National Archives to the House Select Committee on November twelveth, 613 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: So stand by. And then here's the big ticket question 614 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: is if she rules. When she rules, Donald Trump, you 615 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: lose and the House Select Committee gets all this damaging 616 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: information from the National Archives. The question is will the 617 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: courts stay In other words, while they say, well, we're 618 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: ruling in favor of the National Archives and in the 619 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: House Select Committee, but we're not going to say they 620 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: have to give over the documents. We're going to let 621 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: Donald Trump file endless appeals before we finally require the 622 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: documents to be hand over. Gosh. I hope the courts 623 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: have learned its lesson. They refuse to stay production of 624 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,439 Speaker 1: the documents. The documents go over, they can go over 625 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: with what's called a protective order, which I'm happy to explain. 626 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: The documents go over, the House Committee gets them and 627 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: begins to work with them, and Donald Trump can keep 628 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,919 Speaker 1: appealing the judge's decision. That's fine. But you know what, 629 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: Donald Trump doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, 630 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: because the whole question is do these documents enjoy executive privilege? 631 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: The answer is yeah, they very well might. Who gets 632 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: to make the decision about whether to waive executive privilege 633 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: or invoke executive privilege under the law? President Biden, the 634 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: current president, he said, I will not invoke executive privilege. 635 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: It's in the public interest for these documents to go 636 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: over so we can get to the bottom of January sixth. 637 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: Donald Trump doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. 638 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 1: The only question is will the courts allow him to 639 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 1: weaponize the delay? I mean that is that's the question. 640 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 1: That's the question that I think that we're all going 641 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: to be waiting on the next weeks and months, hopefully 642 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: not years, to figure out where where these cases will go. 643 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: Glenn Kirschner, as always, I mean, you keep us on 644 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: our toes. This legal system is keeping us on our toes, 645 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: and I hope that in the weeks to come, we 646 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: have actual good news to share with folks on Will 647 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: Gaypp about indictments and talking about that. The good news 648 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: has got to come eventually, right as always Glenn, we 649 00:43:55,200 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: appreciate you. Thank you so much. Thank you Daniel, as always, 650 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power, 651 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.