Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is author
Speaker 1: Sam Wasson. Whether he's writing about directors such as Blake Edwards,
Speaker 1: Paul Mazurski, or the history of improv, a consistent theme
Speaker 1: running through Wasson's books is the perseverance and talent required
Speaker 1: to make art in Hollywood. His latest book, The Big Goodbye,
Speaker 1: is about the seminal film Chinatown. How much You're Worth?
Speaker 1: How much you want? I just want to know what
Speaker 1: you're worth? Over ten millions by yes? Why are you
Speaker 1: doing it? How much better can you eat? What can
Speaker 1: you buy that you can't already afford? The future? Mr
Speaker 1: Gitts the Future. This is the love theme from Chinatown
Speaker 1: by the film's composer Jerry Goldsmith. In The Big Goodbye,
Speaker 1: Wasson chronicles the friendships of the four men at the
Speaker 1: heart of the nineteen seventy four classic producer Robert Evans,
Speaker 1: screenwriter Robert Town, director Roman Polanski, and the movie star
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholson, and what was at stake for each one
Speaker 1: in making this definitive film. Sam Wasson grew up in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and fell in love with the movies. Early on,
Speaker 1: I was a movie love. It was actually Bullets over Broadway.
Speaker 1: I went nuts. I thought, oh, film is not just
Speaker 1: dialogue and performance. It's visual component. It's a complete sensual experience.
Speaker 1: That Bullets was so beautiful and so funny. It knocked
Speaker 1: me out when I saw it. That was the end.
Speaker 1: It's the ultimate art form, combining all the other art forms.
Speaker 1: You finished film school, yeah, USC. First I went significantly.
Speaker 1: I went to Wesleyan for film School in Connecticut and
Speaker 1: studied with Janine Basinger, who's the Hollywood historian on the planet.
Speaker 1: Knows more about Hollywood than anyone ever has I think
Speaker 1: ever ever will have. And it's just obvious when you
Speaker 1: talk to her, and she really teaches a tour theory
Speaker 1: of Hollywood. So I got a deep, four year long
Speaker 1: survey of the greatest and there was no deconstruction. There's
Speaker 1: no you know, film theory. It's film as film. And
Speaker 1: that was my film education. And then I went to USC,
Speaker 1: which was kind of a bust for what for film production.
Speaker 1: I directed one film myself and I just I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say hate it, but I didn't care for at all,
Speaker 1: you know, being responsible for cajoling the work, especially actors.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of managing, isn't it. I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's as as a much managing as art. Whereas if
Speaker 1: you're acting, or if you're starring, or if you're writing,
Speaker 1: there's very little bullshit that you have to deal with.
Speaker 1: It's purer. I think when I was acting and mid
Speaker 1: that I directed a film, I remember that when you're
Speaker 1: when you make films and you're starring in films, you know,
Speaker 1: years ago for me, you could be in your trailer
Speaker 1: and they would knock on the door and say, well,
Speaker 1: the producer I would like to talk to you, or
Speaker 1: the head of the studio is here visiting, he'd like
Speaker 1: to talk to you, and I'd say tell him I'm
Speaker 1: asleep and just and you could hide in the trailer,
Speaker 1: as opposed to when you're directing. You can't do that.
Speaker 1: You can't. You have to. They come to work and
Speaker 1: they're like, let's let's talk about how you're over over
Speaker 1: schedule here. That's an amazing thing about directing is that
Speaker 1: you're you're really in reality. You're interfacing with reality all
Speaker 1: the time, and in other art forms you don't. You
Speaker 1: can be in your imagination but when you're making a movie,
Speaker 1: there's so much ship that you have to do. You're
Speaker 1: making a building from scratch. So you finished, you did
Speaker 1: four years at Wesleyan. Yeah, and then you wanted more
Speaker 1: film school. And then I and everyone was said, Oh,
Speaker 1: you want to make movies, you gotta go to film school.
Speaker 1: You gotta go to USC. And so I thought, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: at USC. Of course, that's where you know, you go
Speaker 1: to Juilliard. If you want to do Lincoln Center, you
Speaker 1: go to USC. If you want to do you know,
Speaker 1: Man's Chinese. So Wesleyan was more film theory, and USC
Speaker 1: it was about film production. Yeah, it was film study.
Speaker 1: I mean it was filmed. It was watching movies and
Speaker 1: talking about filmmaking. But at what point do you stop
Speaker 1: and see yourself. I don't think I'm gonna make movies.
Speaker 1: Well I'm not totally convinced that I'm not going to.
Speaker 1: But at that moment, it was a combination of two things.
Speaker 1: I looked around and I saw that my fellow classmates
Speaker 1: were completely invested in the Hobbit thing, and I felt
Speaker 1: instantly lonely and realized that I was experiencing a microcosm
Speaker 1: of what it was gonna look like out in the
Speaker 1: real working world. And I thought, you know, maybe the
Speaker 1: Hollywood that I grew up in is no longer the Hollywood.
Speaker 1: That is the Hollywood that grew up outside. I dove
Speaker 1: and I was right. And then the book thing just happened.
Speaker 1: How it was actually Janine Basinger Wesley and said why
Speaker 1: don't you write a book? I never thought of it.
Speaker 1: And I picked Blake because I wanted to pick who
Speaker 1: I thought was the greatest writer director of comedy alive
Speaker 1: who had not been celebrated. Now Blake. My ex wife
Speaker 1: Kim Basinger did a man who loved women with Blake,
Speaker 1: And that's when I first met Julie. And you know,
Speaker 1: you're so right. I mean, he's so under are I
Speaker 1: think Victor Victoria is one of the ten funniest movies
Speaker 1: I've ever seen in my life ever. I love Victor Victoria.
Speaker 1: I loved ten. I love a movie he made that
Speaker 1: a lot of people probably don't know about, called What
Speaker 1: Did You Do in the War? Daddy, Dick Sean, Dick Sewn,
Speaker 1: and Dick Sewn. I'll just say this, Dick Shawn is
Speaker 1: a drag scene in the movie. I mean, if I
Speaker 1: don't know what else you need. But but Blake Blake.
Speaker 1: I I always thought that Blake was People look at
Speaker 1: sla up stick somehow, with the exception of Chaplin, who
Speaker 1: is revered as poetic because he is, everyone else looks
Speaker 1: at slapstick as this low form. You know, slapstick is dumb,
Speaker 1: it's for children, it's childish. And so I think Blake
Speaker 1: got a bum rap because of that, and I wanted
Speaker 1: to elevate him and say this is sophistic. Someone can
Speaker 1: fall off a fucking chair and it's still be nol
Speaker 1: coward and that's what Victor Victoria is. Okay, So then
Speaker 1: you do after Blake your next book Fifth Avenue five AM,
Speaker 1: So fifthven and five M is your next book. Why Missourski,
Speaker 1: what did he do to you that made you want
Speaker 1: to write a home Because to write a book, as
Speaker 1: you know, you spending a lot of time in your
Speaker 1: life with that person. Yeah, missours Ki, was just just
Speaker 1: love for the work, enthusiasm for the man who had
Speaker 1: met a couple of times. And actually it ties to Blake.
Speaker 1: As much as I loved the work, Blake left me
Speaker 1: with such a scar in my heart. Why why he
Speaker 1: personally was so sadistic to you. Yeah, sadistic to me.
Speaker 1: And he was that way to you as his as
Speaker 1: his boswell here, it was astonishing. I was young. I
Speaker 1: don't know. You could probably tell me how old I was.
Speaker 1: I don't remember. I was young. And he would cancel
Speaker 1: on me, and I'd be in the car on the
Speaker 1: way over and he would cancel on me with not
Speaker 1: giving any reason. And then he would call me up
Speaker 1: and he would say, you know, get in the car,
Speaker 1: come on over. And I would get in the car
Speaker 1: and he would cancel on me. It was a real
Speaker 1: dance of death. And I finally got in there a
Speaker 1: couple of times, but um, it was open hostility. It
Speaker 1: was like nothing. It was a real abusive codependent relationship.
Speaker 1: So Missurski is platformed off of Blake. How why because
Speaker 1: I we're getting into the therapy portion of the conversation.
Speaker 1: But of course I blame myself for the way I was,
Speaker 1: you know, and I guess I wanted to make sure
Speaker 1: I knew how to do this and that it wasn't
Speaker 1: going wrong because of me, And so I wanted to
Speaker 1: be with someone that I was comfortable with and obviously idolized,
Speaker 1: and those two things dovetailed perfectly, and Paul was nothing
Speaker 1: like Blake Take Oh no, Missour's Keys. You know, it
Speaker 1: turns out people are like their movies. Blake edwards movies
Speaker 1: are sadistic and we love them for it, and Paul's
Speaker 1: movies are loving and warm and we love him for it.
Speaker 1: But because comedy is finally about rage, to find a
Speaker 1: nurturing director of comedy and Nichols wouldn't be would qualify
Speaker 1: in this case is a rare thing. And so I'm
Speaker 1: interested in funny people, and funny people and good people
Speaker 1: don't always go together. So to find in Missourski funny
Speaker 1: and mensch to the core was a beautiful thing, and
Speaker 1: is what what his movies are about. Well interesting you
Speaker 1: mentioned Nichols because Nichols is a very good example. A
Speaker 1: lot of these big directors I worked with and had
Speaker 1: very small parts, you know, Stone, Marty, Woody, Nichols. I mean,
Speaker 1: I didn't have leading roles in these films. And when
Speaker 1: I worked and I did the movie Working Girl, one
Speaker 1: of the first films I did, and I worked with Mike,
Speaker 1: you could tell that Mike was someone who had come
Speaker 1: through a gauntlet, he had worked his way and I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't mean this as a criticism. He had come
Speaker 1: through a gauntlet where in the way that you move
Speaker 1: through the film business, and you have and Polanski reminds
Speaker 1: me of this as well in your book. Mike was
Speaker 1: someone who had in the way that you You'll take
Speaker 1: the good ideas wherever they come from. You'll take the
Speaker 1: good advice wherever it comes from. And you're going through
Speaker 1: the jungle, if you will. And eventually you realize that
Speaker 1: the person you can rely on, the person has that
Speaker 1: typically not always maybe, but who typically has the best
Speaker 1: ideas is yourself. And you grow to rely on yourself
Speaker 1: and you don't want anybody to talk you out of
Speaker 1: what you're keen. That's improvising. That's because Mike is an improviser.
Speaker 1: I mean, does that fit. Why did you write that book?
Speaker 1: Why did you write about improv Well? Two reasons. One,
Speaker 1: I do believe it is a great American art form.
Speaker 1: I do believe that. And the other reason, I wanted
Speaker 1: to meet Elane. I wanted to know Elane. I wanted
Speaker 1: to celebrate Elane because she created this. She's a national treasure.
Speaker 1: You're referring to Elaine May. Yes, she is, as you know,
Speaker 1: you know, tough to get a hold of. I wanted
Speaker 1: to do it, I didn't do it, and my heart
Speaker 1: is still not whole. There's still a dark Elaine part
Speaker 1: in the heart. It belongs to her. I just worship Elaine.
Speaker 1: I mean a new leaf yep. I love Elane, I
Speaker 1: love you. And talk about physical comedy, I mean that
Speaker 1: moment where she's taking off the or she putting on
Speaker 1: the dress or the nightgown. I can't remember what it
Speaker 1: is and she gets stuck in it. I mean a
Speaker 1: woman who could do that and be as spontaneously brilliant
Speaker 1: as she it is. A author Sam Wasson. If you're
Speaker 1: as fascinated with old Hollywood as i am, check out
Speaker 1: my conversation with the legendary Debbie Reynolds and her reflections
Speaker 1: on the Hollywood studio system. Most of us, Shirley McClain
Speaker 1: and Elizabeth they were at MGM and everything was done
Speaker 1: for us, you know, the makeup of hair, sent cars
Speaker 1: for us. We were very spoiled. We didn't kind of
Speaker 1: know what to do when they dropped everybody, like when
Speaker 1: television came in, and remember what year around there was
Speaker 1: the end of the studio system. Kind of died as
Speaker 1: you get into the fifties, it is slowly died a death.
Speaker 1: You know. It was like interesting to watch it was.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was the end, you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't know that it was that. Here more of my
Speaker 1: conversation with Debbie Reynolds at Here's the Thing dot Org.
Speaker 1: After the break, Wasson described vibes what motivated each of
Speaker 1: the four men behind Chinatown's success. I'm Alec Baldwin and
Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. In the movie Chinatown,
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholson plays private eyed Jake Gidtis, who becomes ensnared
Speaker 1: in a web of corruption, at the center of which
Speaker 1: is developer Noah Cross, played by John Houston. It was
Speaker 1: no Ah Across, Sam Wasson was thinking of when he
Speaker 1: watched the two thousand sixty election results come. In the
Speaker 1: moment Trump won, I turned to my friend Graham and
Speaker 1: I said, where, what's the story now? Where? What movie
Speaker 1: are we living in? And that was it combined with
Speaker 1: the fact that of course I want to I'm angry
Speaker 1: about what's happened to Hollywood, and so I'm always looking
Speaker 1: for ways to scream and to tell this story about
Speaker 1: the nightmare that is become of America, which was the
Speaker 1: story we were just beginning to live at that point
Speaker 1: four years ago, combined with its position in the decline
Speaker 1: of that second great wave of the New Hollywood, and
Speaker 1: the four personalities who are fascinating, you know, in and
Speaker 1: of themselves. But that's what I want to I want
Speaker 1: to I want to break that down, those four because
Speaker 1: for me, when I read what you said about Trump
Speaker 1: and now Ah Across, I thought, well, Noah Across to
Speaker 1: me was more even though he was a fictional character.
Speaker 1: He was more Robert Moses than Donald Trump. And I
Speaker 1: mean he actually accomplished things. He was diabolical, and he
Speaker 1: was very, very machiavellian, but he accomplished things as opposed
Speaker 1: to Trump was accomplished only genocide. That's right. When I
Speaker 1: read the book and I put everything through the prison
Speaker 1: of the book and the understanding the film through your lens,
Speaker 1: what I what I came away with, and you correct
Speaker 1: me here or help me, is there's four men that
Speaker 1: come together. Robert Evans at the head of Paramount Nicholson
Speaker 1: is the film star really ascending at this point in
Speaker 1: his career. Polanski does Rosemary's Baby, then his wife is killed.
Speaker 1: Right after that, he makes a movie right on the
Speaker 1: heels of his wife being murdered. And then Robert Town,
Speaker 1: the screenwriter, and all four of them come together, And
Speaker 1: I guess it's safe to say this is a bit
Speaker 1: of an obvious thing. Four guys come together, all of
Speaker 1: whom have an equivalent level of desperation for this movie
Speaker 1: to work. They all are obsessed with making this work.
Speaker 1: Is that? Because that correctly describe for me with the
Speaker 1: relationship between you spend a good amount of time in
Speaker 1: the book and the relationship between Town and Polanski. So
Speaker 1: the film of Chinatown, the shooting script, the scenes that
Speaker 1: were shot, and I'm assuming that eventually a script is
Speaker 1: compiled and is and is bound if you will, Then
Speaker 1: is the shooting script is that more Polanski than Town? Well,
Speaker 1: Town obviously generated it, and then Polanski for years he
Speaker 1: was generating it. And Town is a very slow writer
Speaker 1: and a very expansive writer. I mean he writes big
Speaker 1: and then struggles to cut down to structure. So when
Speaker 1: Polanski comes in in the last two or so weeks
Speaker 1: or a month or whatever it was, Polanski really structures it.
Speaker 1: So I guess the answer is yes. So the structure
Speaker 1: is Roman, no question about it. But the material is Town.
Speaker 1: Now Town who had his writing partner Edward Taylor, and
Speaker 1: Taylor was someone described that relationship. Taylor was someone who
Speaker 1: did a lot of work uncredited, I think nearly all
Speaker 1: of it on Was he ever credited? Did you mention
Speaker 1: that in the book? What did he get a credit anywhere?
Speaker 1: And not on a Town movie? He got a credit,
Speaker 1: a writing credit on a movie called w I Warshowski
Speaker 1: Kathleen Turner picture. Edward Taylor got credited for that. Um,
Speaker 1: but he never got a writing credit on a Robert
Speaker 1: Town movie. UM, never wanted one. Why do you think
Speaker 1: that is when you have a guy, here's four men
Speaker 1: who are fairly um, I'm not obsessed with success, They're
Speaker 1: obsessed with greatness, their legacy. I mean you could you
Speaker 1: could find tune all four men what they had something
Speaker 1: in common, but there was a little bit distinctive what
Speaker 1: Nicholson wanted Evan so Forth. But for Taylor to be
Speaker 1: in the rooms with these people and writing these seminal films,
Speaker 1: why do you think he didn't want any credit? What
Speaker 1: was it about? Well, there's stated reasons and then there's
Speaker 1: unstated reasons, and The stated reasons were, and this is
Speaker 1: Taylor either from his own writing or front or what
Speaker 1: he told to other people, were one, he didn't want
Speaker 1: to deal with the bullshit of show business. He just
Speaker 1: wanted to punch in, punch out right the scenes, do
Speaker 1: the creative work, and not have to deal with the
Speaker 1: haggling of the negotiations and and egos and despair and
Speaker 1: all that stuff that comes with having your name on something.
Speaker 1: There's a certain amount of freedom that you get to say,
Speaker 1: no one's going to know that I was here. So
Speaker 1: there was that. Then there was the long term friendship
Speaker 1: that he had with Town, going all the way back
Speaker 1: to their years at Pomona when they were in college.
Speaker 1: So he felt a kind of loyalty to Town, which
Speaker 1: manifested as subordinating himself to Towns, you know, quite obvious
Speaker 1: need to be a star. And then there were all
Speaker 1: these speculative secret reasons about secrets that they might have
Speaker 1: had on each other. Uh. Then there was of course
Speaker 1: Edwards alcoholism and Town really being a support to Taylor,
Speaker 1: you know, because Taylor got paid for this, and Taylor
Speaker 1: in his heart really did believe you know, these are
Speaker 1: Towns movies, which they were in so far as Town
Speaker 1: generated them, and I'm just helping Robert with his movie.
Speaker 1: He convinced himself of that that it really was more town.
Speaker 1: And also there are people like that who what they
Speaker 1: convinced and they have a certain kind of personality. I've
Speaker 1: known a couple of myself where their attitude is better
Speaker 1: the crumbs off your table than nothing at all. That's it.
Speaker 1: That's it. So there's deep pathological stuff that we can't
Speaker 1: even get into. But that's the type that you're describing.
Speaker 1: But the one thing that you see in this movie
Speaker 1: is the death of that studio executive like Evans. You
Speaker 1: mentioned a piece of very well known history, the advent
Speaker 1: of Jaws and what Jaws does to marketing and films
Speaker 1: and how the business will changes in the wake of that.
Speaker 1: But you tell it so well, I mean, you tell
Speaker 1: it really wonderful. You you make everybody really see the
Speaker 1: impact that once these guys knew there was big money
Speaker 1: in them, there are hills. Everything changes. What was it
Speaker 1: about Evans that he wanted to have great films that
Speaker 1: made money and one awards? He loved it, He loved it,
Speaker 1: He loved show business, he loved movies, he loved people.
Speaker 1: He loved talent. It's actually that simple. I asked him
Speaker 1: this question. I said, Evans, is it as simple as
Speaker 1: you bet on talent? Do you have an easy job?
Speaker 1: And he said, you goddamn right. That was and and
Speaker 1: and it's true. I mean, if you have the courage,
Speaker 1: that's the question. Do you have the courage to say, yes,
Speaker 1: I believe you are talented. Here's the check. Then you're
Speaker 1: a great studio executive because even if the movie fails,
Speaker 1: even if it is a steaming piece of ship humiliation
Speaker 1: to everyone on the planet, at least you go to
Speaker 1: bed thinking I picked a good guy. I picked the
Speaker 1: right people to do that. That's a pride that what
Speaker 1: executive can now go to sleep saying that you know
Speaker 1: the Evans Is and you mentioned Zani and people like
Speaker 1: that who are running with the studios. Back then, some
Speaker 1: of them were people who knew how to make movies,
Speaker 1: but they knew people who knew how to make movies,
Speaker 1: and they knew how to bring them together, and they
Speaker 1: seduce them into comming and to join them on this venture. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean Goldman's maxim turns out to be right. I
Speaker 1: believe nobody does know anything. I believe nobody knows anything.
Speaker 1: Those people who end up being the most successful are
Speaker 1: the people who have the who are the strongest to
Speaker 1: adhere to their great taste. And those guys Zanick, all
Speaker 1: those great guys had exactly that. Now, Evans, of course
Speaker 1: you you you do a wonderful job in the book.
Speaker 1: This is a prism through which you learn a lot
Speaker 1: about the movie business and the history of the movie business.
Speaker 1: It's a great, great, great book. And you also learn
Speaker 1: what a seminal year of this is in nineteen for
Speaker 1: so many great movies made. And Evans is someone who
Speaker 1: knows that white hot period in the seventies, the studios
Speaker 1: are making Paint Your Wagon and Finnian's Rainbow and all
Speaker 1: that stuff is tanking, and then along comes and Robert
Speaker 1: Osborne said this to me when we co hosted TCM together.
Speaker 1: He said, you know, I just hate Easy Rider, because
Speaker 1: Easy Writers the movie that comes along and just changes everything.
Speaker 1: The movie becomes so real and so ugly and so
Speaker 1: and so nasty, and so they're they're like documentaries. Nicholson
Speaker 1: becomes a star, if you will, on the back of
Speaker 1: that movie in sixty nine. Let me get into the seventies,
Speaker 1: and what happens, well, you know, just like Hollywood being Hollywood,
Speaker 1: Easy Rider is a hit. So then they all fall
Speaker 1: over themselves trying to get the next one now, unlike
Speaker 1: today where they fall over themselves trying to get the
Speaker 1: next one. Back then making a movie was relatively inexpensive
Speaker 1: enough that they could understand the next one being well,
Speaker 1: let's try another little movie based on a you know,
Speaker 1: based on a couple of guys. You know, the modesty
Speaker 1: of the Easy Rider project could be replicated. And that
Speaker 1: is a recipe for creativity. And so that's what they
Speaker 1: did after that absolutely cynical undertaking insofar as Hollywood is
Speaker 1: doing what it's always done. But because the economics of
Speaker 1: the system are conducive to creativity and the people calling
Speaker 1: the shots are genuinely interested in art, it can flower
Speaker 1: Polanski's wife. He makes the movie Rosemary's Baby, which I
Speaker 1: can't say enough about that movie. And the more I
Speaker 1: watch that movie, that's one of the ones I've downloaded
Speaker 1: in my computer because of that remarkable balance he has.
Speaker 1: You have Ruth Gordon in this, like right up to
Speaker 1: her toes or right on the line of camp in that,
Speaker 1: and yet there's Sydney Blackmer playing her husband, who's his velvety,
Speaker 1: and the cast is Alicia Cook. You have the creepy
Speaker 1: and the sour, and the sweet and the weird and
Speaker 1: the pleasant, everything the harmony, and the same is true
Speaker 1: for this movie. The same is true. Polanski is a
Speaker 1: master of casting. Master. I'm so glad you brought definitely
Speaker 1: down to I mean, who is Bert Young in Chinatown?
Speaker 1: Talk about juicy? I mean, there's so it's an embarrassment
Speaker 1: of riches that we never get the movie is so
Speaker 1: fertile in talent that we never get down to the
Speaker 1: Burt Young of it all. Obscure Bert, Yeah, we do
Speaker 1: obscure Bert Young, Diane Lad how about that dead on
Speaker 1: the floor and just a perfect, perfect portrait of a
Speaker 1: nervous actress all the way through performing down to the
Speaker 1: very end when he pulls out the sag card, and
Speaker 1: that is an l that is also inside. That's a
Speaker 1: little gift to an Angelino to see that, Oh yes,
Speaker 1: she was an actress. Of course she was, and you
Speaker 1: play it back in your mind, and and the whole
Speaker 1: psychology of the actress just kind of harmonizes with what
Speaker 1: you've seen Fucking Polanski casting that movie. I mean, how
Speaker 1: do you do you can't tell. How do you teach
Speaker 1: the ability to cast? That has to be one of
Speaker 1: the things like like, yeah, you don't have you have
Speaker 1: to have you have to sense that that person can
Speaker 1: do even if you have to push them, even if
Speaker 1: they have to dig down, you know. You know. Gary
Speaker 1: Oldman became a star doing sidon Nancy. Uh. Gary Oldman
Speaker 1: became a star doing sid Nancy and won an oscar
Speaker 1: playing Churchill. Talk about that journey as an actor in
Speaker 1: terms of the disposition of the character. Now, Polanski, his
Speaker 1: wife is killed, he does Rosemary's Baby. It's it's released
Speaker 1: in sixty eight. His wife is killed in sixty nine.
Speaker 1: He comes and does this movie I guess in seventy three.
Speaker 1: It's released in seventy four. Correct, Yeah, And what Polanski
Speaker 1: is showing up now to shoot Chinatown? Which Polanski shows
Speaker 1: up Now he's changed, how from the horrors of what
Speaker 1: happened to his wife. He's been devastated, He's been devastated,
Speaker 1: and he's he left town. And it should be said,
Speaker 1: not just because his wife and child and friends were
Speaker 1: murdered by them, not just because of the emotional residue
Speaker 1: of the grief but because the town turned on him
Speaker 1: in a way, the town in the panic around figuring
Speaker 1: out who the killer was. We didn't know who the
Speaker 1: killer was. There was speculation that, well, maybe it's Polanski,
Speaker 1: his movie Are Enough. I learned that from you. I
Speaker 1: learned that from your book. And it's a tribute to
Speaker 1: his friends, Dick Silbert, Jack, Warren, Baty Evans, the people
Speaker 1: who were really his friends, who stuck by him and
Speaker 1: supported him in that. I mean the grief to compound
Speaker 1: on top of the grief, the paranoia of the town
Speaker 1: closing in on you, I can't even make a word
Speaker 1: to come out of that. Well, they were they put
Speaker 1: him back together again, so to speak, his friend, They
Speaker 1: put him back together. He's got he's got a good
Speaker 1: bunch of friends. And that's kind of also what this
Speaker 1: book is about, secretly for me, is a good bunch
Speaker 1: of friends, because that's what I dream of, That's what
Speaker 1: a good Hollywood should feel like. One thing that was
Speaker 1: just really assaulted me from the book was that idea
Speaker 1: that back then and it never crossed my mind. It
Speaker 1: never occurred to me that Polanski was someone who people
Speaker 1: he was a suspect and some people's mind and now
Speaker 1: the whole Now, the whole town, the whole community lived
Speaker 1: in terror, in the wake, lived in tear. And I
Speaker 1: should add to compound to make this even fucking worse.
Speaker 1: He didn't know who the killer was, so he's suspecting
Speaker 1: his friends. Maybe it is Warren, Yes, maybe it is Warren.
Speaker 1: He's trying to get sampled. What was he trying to get,
Speaker 1: like blood samples off of steering wheels in the carpeting
Speaker 1: of cars and all the ship. That's an amazing part
Speaker 1: of the book. I mean, it's enough for an opera
Speaker 1: right there. I mean people say it's a Greek tragedy,
Speaker 1: I mean Roman Polanski. That's to say nothing of what
Speaker 1: we all know is coming, but just that incident right there, unimaginable.
Speaker 1: Author Sam Wasson. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a
Speaker 1: friend and be sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing
Speaker 1: on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. When we come back, Wasson talks
Speaker 1: about the reception of the film's shocking ending and it's
Speaker 1: remarkable score. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to
Speaker 1: Here's the Thing because Chinatown was Jack Nicholson's first real
Speaker 1: turn as a leading man. He paid attention to every
Speaker 1: last detail, down to his wardrobe, to inhabit Jake Giddies.
Speaker 1: I mean it was deep in him too, because Town
Speaker 1: wrote it for him. Town observed Nicholson. They were in
Speaker 1: Jeff Corey's acting class, and and improvised improvisation was heavy
Speaker 1: in that class. And so Jack is a great improviser.
Speaker 1: So Town really became a master of Jack, whatever that means,
Speaker 1: and so learned learned how to just hit it right
Speaker 1: to him. Sometimes I think the guy that can nail
Speaker 1: Chinatown and especially that ending and that in that last line,
Speaker 1: the guy that can all that ending you right with
Speaker 1: great detail and great insight into the shooting of that
Speaker 1: final scene and the car driving off in that long shot,
Speaker 1: and the actor that pulls the gun and shoots her,
Speaker 1: you know, the whole kind of existential on wi of
Speaker 1: the whole thing at the end, Uh, forget about it.
Speaker 1: Jacob's Chinatown. I thought to myself, that's Polanski. In the
Speaker 1: wake of his wife being butchered that way, Yes, like
Speaker 1: his mother's killed. His father says to him, you had
Speaker 1: you have it in there, Move it, move it. The
Speaker 1: prompt from the Father. But you just keep moving, just
Speaker 1: keep moving. And Polanski was certainly primed to nail because
Speaker 1: of all the horrors he'd been through. And it's hard
Speaker 1: to imagine a more horrific ending to a major Hollywood movie.
Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine. And when the film was screened
Speaker 1: for the executives, what was there you write about this?
Speaker 1: What was their response to the film? You know, you
Speaker 1: tried your best, Evans, you know, Sue Manger's was like,
Speaker 1: what are you? What were you Connie? What were you thinking?
Speaker 1: I can't do Sue, you can do it? You know,
Speaker 1: they're filing out in the director's guil um was it
Speaker 1: Freddie Fields who had a sort of shit eating grin
Speaker 1: on his Freddie Freddie and Evans were never sympathico. But
Speaker 1: then it got good reviews. Yeah, yeah, then it did well.
Speaker 1: It did Yeah, and I won a lot of awards. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Jack didn't win. Jack didn't win. Jack didn't win. J
Speaker 1: Who won that? You? Oh? Oh? Art Carney from from Missourski,
Speaker 1: from Missoursky, even Missoursky when I talked to Jack's oscar
Speaker 1: and hands it not so fast Jack hands it to
Speaker 1: Art Carney. Yeah, I think even Paul was a little
Speaker 1: embarrassed of that. Was it going in style? No, it
Speaker 1: was Harry, Uh huh. Let's see Chinatown. Let's see Wow. Okay,
Speaker 1: it sounds like an SETV sketch from the makers of Chinatown.
Speaker 1: From the Makers comes a story of a man in
Speaker 1: his cat. You know. One of the things that I
Speaker 1: love the part of the story because I'm obsessed with
Speaker 1: musical score. Describe how there was the path with the
Speaker 1: score for Chinatown. One composer who then what happens? His
Speaker 1: name was Philip Lambro, and um, he wrote, I don't
Speaker 1: have the language to even describe what music I mean.
Speaker 1: You can actually find the score on YouTube. And it
Speaker 1: was an atonal, edgy, expressionistic, weird, you know, not melodic,
Speaker 1: not what you think of his Hollywood, certainly not what
Speaker 1: you think of his forties glamour Hollywood. And it didn't work.
Speaker 1: And this was like in the final moments before you know,
Speaker 1: scoring comes in at the very end. And what happened
Speaker 1: was Evans called Goldsmith and said you got to save
Speaker 1: my life, and and Goldsmith said all right. And ten
Speaker 1: days later and and ten days sounds like a legend,
Speaker 1: you know, sounds like fable fiction stuff. I got ten
Speaker 1: days confirmed all over the place. It really was end day.
Speaker 1: I mean, if it wasn't ten, it was eleven days.
Speaker 1: You know, he turned around a masterpiece in no time.
Speaker 1: This is another reason why Evans is Evans. Only people
Speaker 1: like Evans can pick up the phone and get somebody
Speaker 1: like Goldsmith to write a score for one of the
Speaker 1: greatest movies in the world in eleven days or wherever
Speaker 1: the funk it is. And it also tells you that
Speaker 1: Evans was beloved on a personal level. Yes, you know,
Speaker 1: you could make those calls. You make those calls and
Speaker 1: someone says yes and turn and turns it around, and
Speaker 1: Evans supervised the score. You know. Music was so important
Speaker 1: to Evans, so important to Evans, even though he's fucked
Speaker 1: up on on Godfather by not you know, Nino Rota
Speaker 1: pushing back on Rits, okay, but Evans loves music because
Speaker 1: he's finally in his heart just a romantic and a softie.
Speaker 1: And also music is a major part of post production,
Speaker 1: and that's where Evans can come in and get his
Speaker 1: hands in there. Sometimes he gets his hands a little
Speaker 1: too much in there, as as as Copeland knows and
Speaker 1: suffered by but that's the shadow side of Evans, but
Speaker 1: music allows him to allow him to do that. Obviously,
Speaker 1: many people know this already that your book has been
Speaker 1: options and they're gonna make a movie out of it,
Speaker 1: and my dear friend Lauren Michaels is going to produce.
Speaker 1: And then in addition to uh Lauren as producer, Ben
Speaker 1: Affleck has been collared. If you will to do the directing.
Speaker 1: What is something you are hopeful about. I'm hopeful that
Speaker 1: they'll do right by Roman in what regard well, you know,
Speaker 1: the times that we're living in, you know, uh, may surely,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm surprised they even they even did it, you
Speaker 1: know that they that they thought that this would be
Speaker 1: the right climate to make a movie that stars a
Speaker 1: character Roman Polanski, and is a I should dare say
Speaker 1: because I wrote it a sympathetic portrait in the in
Speaker 1: the book balanced, I hope, but sympathetic. And we live
Speaker 1: in such extreme I don't know, we live in such
Speaker 1: an extreme yes or no cancel culture, canceled culture this
Speaker 1: or that there is no gray area and Roman is
Speaker 1: the definition of gray and every great character is every
Speaker 1: great character is. So I want to see, not not
Speaker 1: just them to do right by Roman because I know
Speaker 1: him and respect him, but also I want the movie
Speaker 1: to be as good as it could be. And my
Speaker 1: theory is that to write a character who lives in
Speaker 1: the gray, I wish that for every character in the
Speaker 1: movie that they're in the gray. And I wish that
Speaker 1: for every character in every movie. Author Sam Wasson on
Speaker 1: his book The Big Goodbye Chinatown and the Last Years
Speaker 1: of Hollywood. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's
Speaker 1: the Thing. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie donohue, and
Speaker 1: Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Thanks for listening, kid,