1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is author 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: Sam Wasson. Whether he's writing about directors such as Blake Edwards, 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: Paul Mazurski, or the history of improv, a consistent theme 5 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: running through Wasson's books is the perseverance and talent required 6 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: to make art in Hollywood. His latest book, The Big Goodbye, 7 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: is about the seminal film Chinatown. How much You're Worth? 8 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: How much you want? I just want to know what 9 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: you're worth? Over ten millions by yes? Why are you 10 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: doing it? How much better can you eat? What can 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: you buy that you can't already afford? The future? Mr 12 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: Gitts the Future. This is the love theme from Chinatown 13 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: by the film's composer Jerry Goldsmith. In The Big Goodbye, 14 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: Wasson chronicles the friendships of the four men at the 15 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: heart of the nineteen seventy four classic producer Robert Evans, 16 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: screenwriter Robert Town, director Roman Polanski, and the movie star 17 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: Jack Nicholson, and what was at stake for each one 18 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: in making this definitive film. Sam Wasson grew up in 19 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: Los Angeles and fell in love with the movies. Early on, 20 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: I was a movie love. It was actually Bullets over Broadway. 21 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: I went nuts. I thought, oh, film is not just 22 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: dialogue and performance. It's visual component. It's a complete sensual experience. 23 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: That Bullets was so beautiful and so funny. It knocked 24 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: me out when I saw it. That was the end. 25 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: It's the ultimate art form, combining all the other art forms. 26 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: You finished film school, yeah, USC. First I went significantly. 27 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: I went to Wesleyan for film School in Connecticut and 28 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: studied with Janine Basinger, who's the Hollywood historian on the planet. 29 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: Knows more about Hollywood than anyone ever has I think 30 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: ever ever will have. And it's just obvious when you 31 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: talk to her, and she really teaches a tour theory 32 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: of Hollywood. So I got a deep, four year long 33 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: survey of the greatest and there was no deconstruction. There's 34 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: no you know, film theory. It's film as film. And 35 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: that was my film education. And then I went to USC, 36 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,399 Speaker 1: which was kind of a bust for what for film production. 37 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: I directed one film myself and I just I wouldn't 38 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: say hate it, but I didn't care for at all, 39 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: you know, being responsible for cajoling the work, especially actors. 40 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 1: It's a lot of managing, isn't it. I mean it's 41 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: it's as as a much managing as art. Whereas if 42 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: you're acting, or if you're starring, or if you're writing, 43 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: there's very little bullshit that you have to deal with. 44 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: It's purer. I think when I was acting and mid 45 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: that I directed a film, I remember that when you're 46 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: when you make films and you're starring in films, you know, 47 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: years ago for me, you could be in your trailer 48 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: and they would knock on the door and say, well, 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: the producer I would like to talk to you, or 50 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: the head of the studio is here visiting, he'd like 51 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: to talk to you, and I'd say tell him I'm 52 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: asleep and just and you could hide in the trailer, 53 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: as opposed to when you're directing. You can't do that. 54 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: You can't. You have to. They come to work and 55 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: they're like, let's let's talk about how you're over over 56 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: schedule here. That's an amazing thing about directing is that 57 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: you're you're really in reality. You're interfacing with reality all 58 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: the time, and in other art forms you don't. You 59 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: can be in your imagination but when you're making a movie, 60 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: there's so much ship that you have to do. You're 61 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: making a building from scratch. So you finished, you did 62 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: four years at Wesleyan. Yeah, and then you wanted more 63 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: film school. And then I and everyone was said, Oh, 64 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: you want to make movies, you gotta go to film school. 65 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: You gotta go to USC. And so I thought, oh, yeah, 66 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: at USC. Of course, that's where you know, you go 67 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: to Juilliard. If you want to do Lincoln Center, you 68 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: go to USC. If you want to do you know, 69 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: Man's Chinese. So Wesleyan was more film theory, and USC 70 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: it was about film production. Yeah, it was film study. 71 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: I mean it was filmed. It was watching movies and 72 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: talking about filmmaking. But at what point do you stop 73 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: and see yourself. I don't think I'm gonna make movies. 74 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: Well I'm not totally convinced that I'm not going to. 75 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: But at that moment, it was a combination of two things. 76 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: I looked around and I saw that my fellow classmates 77 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:43,559 Speaker 1: were completely invested in the Hobbit thing, and I felt 78 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: instantly lonely and realized that I was experiencing a microcosm 79 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: of what it was gonna look like out in the 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: real working world. And I thought, you know, maybe the 81 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: Hollywood that I grew up in is no longer the Hollywood. 82 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: That is the Hollywood that grew up outside. I dove 83 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: and I was right. And then the book thing just happened. 84 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: How it was actually Janine Basinger Wesley and said why 85 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: don't you write a book? I never thought of it. 86 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: And I picked Blake because I wanted to pick who 87 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: I thought was the greatest writer director of comedy alive 88 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: who had not been celebrated. Now Blake. My ex wife 89 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: Kim Basinger did a man who loved women with Blake, 90 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: And that's when I first met Julie. And you know, 91 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: you're so right. I mean, he's so under are I 92 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: think Victor Victoria is one of the ten funniest movies 93 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: I've ever seen in my life ever. I love Victor Victoria. 94 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: I loved ten. I love a movie he made that 95 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people probably don't know about, called What 96 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: Did You Do in the War? Daddy, Dick Sean, Dick Sewn, 97 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: and Dick Sewn. I'll just say this, Dick Shawn is 98 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: a drag scene in the movie. I mean, if I 99 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: don't know what else you need. But but Blake Blake. 100 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: I I always thought that Blake was People look at 101 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: sla up stick somehow, with the exception of Chaplin, who 102 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: is revered as poetic because he is, everyone else looks 103 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: at slapstick as this low form. You know, slapstick is dumb, 104 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: it's for children, it's childish. And so I think Blake 105 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: got a bum rap because of that, and I wanted 106 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: to elevate him and say this is sophistic. Someone can 107 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: fall off a fucking chair and it's still be nol 108 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: coward and that's what Victor Victoria is. Okay, So then 109 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: you do after Blake your next book Fifth Avenue five AM, 110 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: So fifthven and five M is your next book. Why Missourski, 111 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: what did he do to you that made you want 112 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: to write a home Because to write a book, as 113 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, you spending a lot of time in your 114 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: life with that person. Yeah, missours Ki, was just just 115 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: love for the work, enthusiasm for the man who had 116 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: met a couple of times. And actually it ties to Blake. 117 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: As much as I loved the work, Blake left me 118 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: with such a scar in my heart. Why why he 119 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: personally was so sadistic to you. Yeah, sadistic to me. 120 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: And he was that way to you as his as 121 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: his boswell here, it was astonishing. I was young. I 122 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: don't know. You could probably tell me how old I was. 123 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: I don't remember. I was young. And he would cancel 124 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: on me, and I'd be in the car on the 125 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: way over and he would cancel on me with not 126 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: giving any reason. And then he would call me up 127 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: and he would say, you know, get in the car, 128 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: come on over. And I would get in the car 129 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: and he would cancel on me. It was a real 130 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: dance of death. And I finally got in there a 131 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: couple of times, but um, it was open hostility. It 132 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: was like nothing. It was a real abusive codependent relationship. 133 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: So Missurski is platformed off of Blake. How why because 134 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: I we're getting into the therapy portion of the conversation. 135 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: But of course I blame myself for the way I was, 136 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, and I guess I wanted to make sure 137 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 1: I knew how to do this and that it wasn't 138 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: going wrong because of me, And so I wanted to 139 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: be with someone that I was comfortable with and obviously idolized, 140 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: and those two things dovetailed perfectly, and Paul was nothing 141 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: like Blake Take Oh no, Missour's Keys. You know, it 142 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: turns out people are like their movies. Blake edwards movies 143 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: are sadistic and we love them for it, and Paul's 144 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: movies are loving and warm and we love him for it. 145 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: But because comedy is finally about rage, to find a 146 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: nurturing director of comedy and Nichols wouldn't be would qualify 147 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: in this case is a rare thing. And so I'm 148 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: interested in funny people, and funny people and good people 149 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: don't always go together. So to find in Missourski funny 150 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: and mensch to the core was a beautiful thing, and 151 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: is what what his movies are about. Well interesting you 152 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: mentioned Nichols because Nichols is a very good example. A 153 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: lot of these big directors I worked with and had 154 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: very small parts, you know, Stone, Marty, Woody, Nichols. I mean, 155 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: I didn't have leading roles in these films. And when 156 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: I worked and I did the movie Working Girl, one 157 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: of the first films I did, and I worked with Mike, 158 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: you could tell that Mike was someone who had come 159 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: through a gauntlet, he had worked his way and I don't. 160 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: I don't mean this as a criticism. He had come 161 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: through a gauntlet where in the way that you move 162 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: through the film business, and you have and Polanski reminds 163 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: me of this as well in your book. Mike was 164 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: someone who had in the way that you You'll take 165 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: the good ideas wherever they come from. You'll take the 166 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: good advice wherever it comes from. And you're going through 167 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: the jungle, if you will. And eventually you realize that 168 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: the person you can rely on, the person has that 169 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: typically not always maybe, but who typically has the best 170 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: ideas is yourself. And you grow to rely on yourself 171 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: and you don't want anybody to talk you out of 172 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: what you're keen. That's improvising. That's because Mike is an improviser. 173 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: I mean, does that fit. Why did you write that book? 174 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: Why did you write about improv Well? Two reasons. One, 175 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: I do believe it is a great American art form. 176 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: I do believe that. And the other reason, I wanted 177 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: to meet Elane. I wanted to know Elane. I wanted 178 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: to celebrate Elane because she created this. She's a national treasure. 179 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: You're referring to Elaine May. Yes, she is, as you know, 180 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, tough to get a hold of. I wanted 181 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: to do it, I didn't do it, and my heart 182 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: is still not whole. There's still a dark Elaine part 183 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: in the heart. It belongs to her. I just worship Elaine. 184 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: I mean a new leaf yep. I love Elane, I 185 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: love you. And talk about physical comedy, I mean that 186 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: moment where she's taking off the or she putting on 187 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: the dress or the nightgown. I can't remember what it 188 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: is and she gets stuck in it. I mean a 189 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: woman who could do that and be as spontaneously brilliant 190 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: as she it is. A author Sam Wasson. If you're 191 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: as fascinated with old Hollywood as i am, check out 192 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: my conversation with the legendary Debbie Reynolds and her reflections 193 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: on the Hollywood studio system. Most of us, Shirley McClain 194 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth they were at MGM and everything was done 195 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: for us, you know, the makeup of hair, sent cars 196 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: for us. We were very spoiled. We didn't kind of 197 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: know what to do when they dropped everybody, like when 198 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: television came in, and remember what year around there was 199 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: the end of the studio system. Kind of died as 200 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: you get into the fifties, it is slowly died a death. 201 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: You know. It was like interesting to watch it was. 202 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was the end, you know, I 203 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: didn't know that it was that. Here more of my 204 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: conversation with Debbie Reynolds at Here's the Thing dot Org. 205 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: After the break, Wasson described vibes what motivated each of 206 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: the four men behind Chinatown's success. I'm Alec Baldwin and 207 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. In the movie Chinatown, 208 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: Jack Nicholson plays private eyed Jake Gidtis, who becomes ensnared 209 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: in a web of corruption, at the center of which 210 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: is developer Noah Cross, played by John Houston. It was 211 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: no Ah Across, Sam Wasson was thinking of when he 212 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: watched the two thousand sixty election results come. In the 213 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: moment Trump won, I turned to my friend Graham and 214 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: I said, where, what's the story now? Where? What movie 215 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: are we living in? And that was it combined with 216 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: the fact that of course I want to I'm angry 217 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: about what's happened to Hollywood, and so I'm always looking 218 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: for ways to scream and to tell this story about 219 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: the nightmare that is become of America, which was the 220 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: story we were just beginning to live at that point 221 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: four years ago, combined with its position in the decline 222 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: of that second great wave of the New Hollywood, and 223 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: the four personalities who are fascinating, you know, in and 224 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: of themselves. But that's what I want to I want 225 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: to I want to break that down, those four because 226 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: for me, when I read what you said about Trump 227 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: and now Ah Across, I thought, well, Noah Across to 228 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: me was more even though he was a fictional character. 229 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: He was more Robert Moses than Donald Trump. And I 230 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: mean he actually accomplished things. He was diabolical, and he 231 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: was very, very machiavellian, but he accomplished things as opposed 232 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: to Trump was accomplished only genocide. That's right. When I 233 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: read the book and I put everything through the prison 234 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: of the book and the understanding the film through your lens, 235 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: what I what I came away with, and you correct 236 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: me here or help me, is there's four men that 237 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: come together. Robert Evans at the head of Paramount Nicholson 238 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: is the film star really ascending at this point in 239 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: his career. Polanski does Rosemary's Baby, then his wife is killed. 240 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: Right after that, he makes a movie right on the 241 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: heels of his wife being murdered. And then Robert Town, 242 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: the screenwriter, and all four of them come together, And 243 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: I guess it's safe to say this is a bit 244 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: of an obvious thing. Four guys come together, all of 245 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: whom have an equivalent level of desperation for this movie 246 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: to work. They all are obsessed with making this work. 247 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: Is that? Because that correctly describe for me with the 248 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: relationship between you spend a good amount of time in 249 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: the book and the relationship between Town and Polanski. So 250 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: the film of Chinatown, the shooting script, the scenes that 251 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: were shot, and I'm assuming that eventually a script is 252 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: compiled and is and is bound if you will, Then 253 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: is the shooting script is that more Polanski than Town? Well, 254 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: Town obviously generated it, and then Polanski for years he 255 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: was generating it. And Town is a very slow writer 256 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: and a very expansive writer. I mean he writes big 257 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: and then struggles to cut down to structure. So when 258 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: Polanski comes in in the last two or so weeks 259 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: or a month or whatever it was, Polanski really structures it. 260 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: So I guess the answer is yes. So the structure 261 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: is Roman, no question about it. But the material is Town. 262 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: Now Town who had his writing partner Edward Taylor, and 263 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: Taylor was someone described that relationship. Taylor was someone who 264 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: did a lot of work uncredited, I think nearly all 265 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: of it on Was he ever credited? Did you mention 266 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: that in the book? What did he get a credit anywhere? 267 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: And not on a Town movie? He got a credit, 268 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: a writing credit on a movie called w I Warshowski 269 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: Kathleen Turner picture. Edward Taylor got credited for that. Um, 270 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: but he never got a writing credit on a Robert 271 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: Town movie. UM, never wanted one. Why do you think 272 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: that is when you have a guy, here's four men 273 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: who are fairly um, I'm not obsessed with success, They're 274 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: obsessed with greatness, their legacy. I mean you could you 275 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: could find tune all four men what they had something 276 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: in common, but there was a little bit distinctive what 277 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: Nicholson wanted Evan so Forth. But for Taylor to be 278 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: in the rooms with these people and writing these seminal films, 279 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: why do you think he didn't want any credit? What 280 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: was it about? Well, there's stated reasons and then there's 281 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: unstated reasons, and The stated reasons were, and this is 282 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: Taylor either from his own writing or front or what 283 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: he told to other people, were one, he didn't want 284 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: to deal with the bullshit of show business. He just 285 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: wanted to punch in, punch out right the scenes, do 286 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: the creative work, and not have to deal with the 287 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: haggling of the negotiations and and egos and despair and 288 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: all that stuff that comes with having your name on something. 289 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: There's a certain amount of freedom that you get to say, 290 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: no one's going to know that I was here. So 291 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: there was that. Then there was the long term friendship 292 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: that he had with Town, going all the way back 293 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: to their years at Pomona when they were in college. 294 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: So he felt a kind of loyalty to Town, which 295 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: manifested as subordinating himself to Towns, you know, quite obvious 296 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: need to be a star. And then there were all 297 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: these speculative secret reasons about secrets that they might have 298 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: had on each other. Uh. Then there was of course 299 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: Edwards alcoholism and Town really being a support to Taylor, 300 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, because Taylor got paid for this, and Taylor 301 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: in his heart really did believe you know, these are 302 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: Towns movies, which they were in so far as Town 303 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: generated them, and I'm just helping Robert with his movie. 304 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: He convinced himself of that that it really was more town. 305 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: And also there are people like that who what they 306 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: convinced and they have a certain kind of personality. I've 307 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: known a couple of myself where their attitude is better 308 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: the crumbs off your table than nothing at all. That's it. 309 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: That's it. So there's deep pathological stuff that we can't 310 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: even get into. But that's the type that you're describing. 311 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: But the one thing that you see in this movie 312 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: is the death of that studio executive like Evans. You 313 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: mentioned a piece of very well known history, the advent 314 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: of Jaws and what Jaws does to marketing and films 315 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: and how the business will changes in the wake of that. 316 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: But you tell it so well, I mean, you tell 317 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: it really wonderful. You you make everybody really see the 318 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: impact that once these guys knew there was big money 319 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: in them, there are hills. Everything changes. What was it 320 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: about Evans that he wanted to have great films that 321 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: made money and one awards? He loved it, He loved it, 322 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: He loved show business, he loved movies, he loved people. 323 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: He loved talent. It's actually that simple. I asked him 324 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: this question. I said, Evans, is it as simple as 325 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: you bet on talent? Do you have an easy job? 326 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 1: And he said, you goddamn right. That was and and 327 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: and it's true. I mean, if you have the courage, 328 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: that's the question. Do you have the courage to say, yes, 329 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: I believe you are talented. Here's the check. Then you're 330 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: a great studio executive because even if the movie fails, 331 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: even if it is a steaming piece of ship humiliation 332 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: to everyone on the planet, at least you go to 333 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: bed thinking I picked a good guy. I picked the 334 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: right people to do that. That's a pride that what 335 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: executive can now go to sleep saying that you know 336 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: the Evans Is and you mentioned Zani and people like 337 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: that who are running with the studios. Back then, some 338 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: of them were people who knew how to make movies, 339 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: but they knew people who knew how to make movies, 340 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: and they knew how to bring them together, and they 341 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: seduce them into comming and to join them on this venture. Yes, 342 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: I mean Goldman's maxim turns out to be right. I 343 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: believe nobody does know anything. I believe nobody knows anything. 344 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: Those people who end up being the most successful are 345 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: the people who have the who are the strongest to 346 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: adhere to their great taste. And those guys Zanick, all 347 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: those great guys had exactly that. Now, Evans, of course 348 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: you you you do a wonderful job in the book. 349 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: This is a prism through which you learn a lot 350 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: about the movie business and the history of the movie business. 351 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: It's a great, great, great book. And you also learn 352 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: what a seminal year of this is in nineteen for 353 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: so many great movies made. And Evans is someone who 354 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: knows that white hot period in the seventies, the studios 355 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: are making Paint Your Wagon and Finnian's Rainbow and all 356 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: that stuff is tanking, and then along comes and Robert 357 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: Osborne said this to me when we co hosted TCM together. 358 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: He said, you know, I just hate Easy Rider, because 359 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: Easy Writers the movie that comes along and just changes everything. 360 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: The movie becomes so real and so ugly and so 361 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: and so nasty, and so they're they're like documentaries. Nicholson 362 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: becomes a star, if you will, on the back of 363 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: that movie in sixty nine. Let me get into the seventies, 364 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: and what happens, well, you know, just like Hollywood being Hollywood, 365 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: Easy Rider is a hit. So then they all fall 366 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: over themselves trying to get the next one now, unlike 367 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: today where they fall over themselves trying to get the 368 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: next one. Back then making a movie was relatively inexpensive 369 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: enough that they could understand the next one being well, 370 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: let's try another little movie based on a you know, 371 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: based on a couple of guys. You know, the modesty 372 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: of the Easy Rider project could be replicated. And that 373 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: is a recipe for creativity. And so that's what they 374 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: did after that absolutely cynical undertaking insofar as Hollywood is 375 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: doing what it's always done. But because the economics of 376 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: the system are conducive to creativity and the people calling 377 00:21:55,359 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: the shots are genuinely interested in art, it can flower 378 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: Polanski's wife. He makes the movie Rosemary's Baby, which I 379 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: can't say enough about that movie. And the more I 380 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: watch that movie, that's one of the ones I've downloaded 381 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: in my computer because of that remarkable balance he has. 382 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: You have Ruth Gordon in this, like right up to 383 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: her toes or right on the line of camp in that, 384 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: and yet there's Sydney Blackmer playing her husband, who's his velvety, 385 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: and the cast is Alicia Cook. You have the creepy 386 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: and the sour, and the sweet and the weird and 387 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: the pleasant, everything the harmony, and the same is true 388 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: for this movie. The same is true. Polanski is a 389 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: master of casting. Master. I'm so glad you brought definitely 390 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: down to I mean, who is Bert Young in Chinatown? 391 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: Talk about juicy? I mean, there's so it's an embarrassment 392 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: of riches that we never get the movie is so 393 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: fertile in talent that we never get down to the 394 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: Burt Young of it all. Obscure Bert, Yeah, we do 395 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: obscure Bert Young, Diane Lad how about that dead on 396 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: the floor and just a perfect, perfect portrait of a 397 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: nervous actress all the way through performing down to the 398 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: very end when he pulls out the sag card, and 399 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: that is an l that is also inside. That's a 400 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: little gift to an Angelino to see that, Oh yes, 401 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: she was an actress. Of course she was, and you 402 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: play it back in your mind, and and the whole 403 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: psychology of the actress just kind of harmonizes with what 404 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: you've seen Fucking Polanski casting that movie. I mean, how 405 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: do you do you can't tell. How do you teach 406 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: the ability to cast? That has to be one of 407 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: the things like like, yeah, you don't have you have 408 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: to have you have to sense that that person can 409 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: do even if you have to push them, even if 410 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: they have to dig down, you know. You know. Gary 411 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: Oldman became a star doing sidon Nancy. Uh. Gary Oldman 412 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: became a star doing sid Nancy and won an oscar 413 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: playing Churchill. Talk about that journey as an actor in 414 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: terms of the disposition of the character. Now, Polanski, his 415 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: wife is killed, he does Rosemary's Baby. It's it's released 416 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: in sixty eight. His wife is killed in sixty nine. 417 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: He comes and does this movie I guess in seventy three. 418 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: It's released in seventy four. Correct, Yeah, And what Polanski 419 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: is showing up now to shoot Chinatown? Which Polanski shows 420 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: up Now he's changed, how from the horrors of what 421 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: happened to his wife. He's been devastated, He's been devastated, 422 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: and he's he left town. And it should be said, 423 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: not just because his wife and child and friends were 424 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: murdered by them, not just because of the emotional residue 425 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: of the grief but because the town turned on him 426 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: in a way, the town in the panic around figuring 427 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: out who the killer was. We didn't know who the 428 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: killer was. There was speculation that, well, maybe it's Polanski, 429 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: his movie Are Enough. I learned that from you. I 430 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: learned that from your book. And it's a tribute to 431 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: his friends, Dick Silbert, Jack, Warren, Baty Evans, the people 432 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: who were really his friends, who stuck by him and 433 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: supported him in that. I mean the grief to compound 434 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: on top of the grief, the paranoia of the town 435 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: closing in on you, I can't even make a word 436 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: to come out of that. Well, they were they put 437 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: him back together again, so to speak, his friend, They 438 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: put him back together. He's got he's got a good 439 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: bunch of friends. And that's kind of also what this 440 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: book is about, secretly for me, is a good bunch 441 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: of friends, because that's what I dream of, That's what 442 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: a good Hollywood should feel like. One thing that was 443 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: just really assaulted me from the book was that idea 444 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: that back then and it never crossed my mind. It 445 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: never occurred to me that Polanski was someone who people 446 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: he was a suspect and some people's mind and now 447 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: the whole Now, the whole town, the whole community lived 448 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: in terror, in the wake, lived in tear. And I 449 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: should add to compound to make this even fucking worse. 450 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: He didn't know who the killer was, so he's suspecting 451 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: his friends. Maybe it is Warren, Yes, maybe it is Warren. 452 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: He's trying to get sampled. What was he trying to get, 453 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: like blood samples off of steering wheels in the carpeting 454 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: of cars and all the ship. That's an amazing part 455 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: of the book. I mean, it's enough for an opera 456 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: right there. I mean people say it's a Greek tragedy, 457 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: I mean Roman Polanski. That's to say nothing of what 458 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: we all know is coming, but just that incident right there, unimaginable. 459 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: Author Sam Wasson. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a 460 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: friend and be sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing 461 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 462 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. When we come back, Wasson talks 463 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: about the reception of the film's shocking ending and it's 464 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: remarkable score. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to 465 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing because Chinatown was Jack Nicholson's first real 466 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: turn as a leading man. He paid attention to every 467 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: last detail, down to his wardrobe, to inhabit Jake Giddies. 468 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: I mean it was deep in him too, because Town 469 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: wrote it for him. Town observed Nicholson. They were in 470 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: Jeff Corey's acting class, and and improvised improvisation was heavy 471 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: in that class. And so Jack is a great improviser. 472 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: So Town really became a master of Jack, whatever that means, 473 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 1: and so learned learned how to just hit it right 474 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: to him. Sometimes I think the guy that can nail 475 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: Chinatown and especially that ending and that in that last line, 476 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: the guy that can all that ending you right with 477 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: great detail and great insight into the shooting of that 478 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: final scene and the car driving off in that long shot, 479 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: and the actor that pulls the gun and shoots her, 480 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: you know, the whole kind of existential on wi of 481 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: the whole thing at the end, Uh, forget about it. 482 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: Jacob's Chinatown. I thought to myself, that's Polanski. In the 483 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: wake of his wife being butchered that way, Yes, like 484 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: his mother's killed. His father says to him, you had 485 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: you have it in there, Move it, move it. The 486 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: prompt from the Father. But you just keep moving, just 487 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: keep moving. And Polanski was certainly primed to nail because 488 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: of all the horrors he'd been through. And it's hard 489 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: to imagine a more horrific ending to a major Hollywood movie. 490 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine. And when the film was screened 491 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: for the executives, what was there you write about this? 492 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: What was their response to the film? You know, you 493 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: tried your best, Evans, you know, Sue Manger's was like, 494 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: what are you? What were you Connie? What were you thinking? 495 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: I can't do Sue, you can do it? You know, 496 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: they're filing out in the director's guil um was it 497 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: Freddie Fields who had a sort of shit eating grin 498 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: on his Freddie Freddie and Evans were never sympathico. But 499 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: then it got good reviews. Yeah, yeah, then it did well. 500 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: It did Yeah, and I won a lot of awards. Yeah. 501 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: Jack didn't win. Jack didn't win. Jack didn't win. J 502 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: Who won that? You? Oh? Oh? Art Carney from from Missourski, 503 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: from Missoursky, even Missoursky when I talked to Jack's oscar 504 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: and hands it not so fast Jack hands it to 505 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: Art Carney. Yeah, I think even Paul was a little 506 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: embarrassed of that. Was it going in style? No, it 507 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: was Harry, Uh huh. Let's see Chinatown. Let's see Wow. Okay, 508 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: it sounds like an SETV sketch from the makers of Chinatown. 509 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: From the Makers comes a story of a man in 510 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: his cat. You know. One of the things that I 511 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: love the part of the story because I'm obsessed with 512 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: musical score. Describe how there was the path with the 513 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: score for Chinatown. One composer who then what happens? His 514 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: name was Philip Lambro, and um, he wrote, I don't 515 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: have the language to even describe what music I mean. 516 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: You can actually find the score on YouTube. And it 517 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: was an atonal, edgy, expressionistic, weird, you know, not melodic, 518 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: not what you think of his Hollywood, certainly not what 519 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: you think of his forties glamour Hollywood. And it didn't work. 520 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: And this was like in the final moments before you know, 521 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,479 Speaker 1: scoring comes in at the very end. And what happened 522 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: was Evans called Goldsmith and said you got to save 523 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: my life, and and Goldsmith said all right. And ten 524 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: days later and and ten days sounds like a legend, 525 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, sounds like fable fiction stuff. I got ten 526 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: days confirmed all over the place. It really was end day. 527 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: I mean, if it wasn't ten, it was eleven days. 528 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: You know, he turned around a masterpiece in no time. 529 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: This is another reason why Evans is Evans. Only people 530 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: like Evans can pick up the phone and get somebody 531 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: like Goldsmith to write a score for one of the 532 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: greatest movies in the world in eleven days or wherever 533 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: the funk it is. And it also tells you that 534 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: Evans was beloved on a personal level. Yes, you know, 535 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: you could make those calls. You make those calls and 536 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: someone says yes and turn and turns it around, and 537 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: Evans supervised the score. You know. Music was so important 538 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: to Evans, so important to Evans, even though he's fucked 539 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: up on on Godfather by not you know, Nino Rota 540 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: pushing back on Rits, okay, but Evans loves music because 541 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: he's finally in his heart just a romantic and a softie. 542 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: And also music is a major part of post production, 543 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: and that's where Evans can come in and get his 544 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: hands in there. Sometimes he gets his hands a little 545 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: too much in there, as as as Copeland knows and 546 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: suffered by but that's the shadow side of Evans, but 547 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: music allows him to allow him to do that. Obviously, 548 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: many people know this already that your book has been 549 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: options and they're gonna make a movie out of it, 550 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: and my dear friend Lauren Michaels is going to produce. 551 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: And then in addition to uh Lauren as producer, Ben 552 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: Affleck has been collared. If you will to do the directing. 553 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: What is something you are hopeful about. I'm hopeful that 554 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: they'll do right by Roman in what regard well, you know, 555 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: the times that we're living in, you know, uh, may surely, 556 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: I'm I'm surprised they even they even did it, you 557 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: know that they that they thought that this would be 558 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: the right climate to make a movie that stars a 559 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: character Roman Polanski, and is a I should dare say 560 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: because I wrote it a sympathetic portrait in the in 561 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: the book balanced, I hope, but sympathetic. And we live 562 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: in such extreme I don't know, we live in such 563 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: an extreme yes or no cancel culture, canceled culture this 564 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: or that there is no gray area and Roman is 565 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: the definition of gray and every great character is every 566 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: great character is. So I want to see, not not 567 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: just them to do right by Roman because I know 568 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: him and respect him, but also I want the movie 569 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: to be as good as it could be. And my 570 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: theory is that to write a character who lives in 571 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: the gray, I wish that for every character in the 572 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: movie that they're in the gray. And I wish that 573 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: for every character in every movie. Author Sam Wasson on 574 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: his book The Big Goodbye Chinatown and the Last Years 575 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: of Hollywood. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's 576 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: the Thing. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie donohue, and 577 00:33:49,320 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Thanks for listening, kid,