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Speaker 1: M HMA. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session one oh four

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Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. In today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we're digging into prolonged exposure therapy. For this conversation, I

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Speaker 1: was joined by Jason Phillips. Jason is a life coach, psychotherapist,

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Speaker 1: and lecturer who advocates relentlessly for prosperity and wellness to

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Speaker 1: strengthen individuals, couples, families, and communities across the globe. Jason

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Speaker 1: has worked in a myriad of settings to include hospice,

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Speaker 1: work with grief and laws, college campuses, community mental health veterans,

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Speaker 1: and active duty soldiers. He has over ten years of

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Speaker 1: experience in the mental health and coaching profession and is

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Speaker 1: considered an expert in evidence based treatment and strategic goals

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Speaker 1: setting to foster success. Jason and I chatted about what

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Speaker 1: prolonged exposure therapy is, how it can be useful to

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Speaker 1: treat PTSD, how to find a therapist who practices it,

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Speaker 1: and he shares of his favorite resources. If you hear

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Speaker 1: something while listening that really resonates with you, please be

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Speaker 1: sure to share it with us on Twitter or in

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Speaker 1: your I G stories using the hashtag tb G in session.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: us today, Jason, thank you Dr Joy for having me on.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciative of this opportunity. We've met, of course

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and you were participating in our three for Thursday,

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Speaker 1: which is the live video we do on Facebook and

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Speaker 1: Instagram every Thursday, and I was like, Okay, this guy's

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Speaker 1: he's like he really uses this for long disclosure therapy

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Speaker 1: as a modality, and so I would love for him

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Speaker 1: to come and talk with the audience about this. So

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Speaker 1: can you tell us, Jason, Let's start by talking and

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Speaker 1: of course on several episodes, we've talked a little bit

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Speaker 1: about PTSD, but nothing in depth. So can you tell

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Speaker 1: us what PTSD is? Good question. Yes, So PTSD is

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Speaker 1: a form of anxiety. So it's an anxiety disorder where

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Speaker 1: an individual has suffered some type of traumatic event and

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Speaker 1: since that event they have significant distress. So it's causing

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Speaker 1: them to lose sleep, possible nightmares, avoiding things to remind

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Speaker 1: them of whatever happened, and sometimes they have recurrent images

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Speaker 1: of that event, so some type of flashback. It just

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Speaker 1: it can't seem to shake whatever experience happened to them,

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Speaker 1: and that's how that lasts over a period of one month.

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Speaker 1: Then typically they see a clinician and our screen and

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Speaker 1: can possibly have the diagnosis of PTSD. Okay, and I

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Speaker 1: think most people are still kind of learning about PTSD.

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Speaker 1: I think for a long time, PTSD is something that

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Speaker 1: had been only associated with like military veterans or people

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Speaker 1: had been in combat. And of course there are tons

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Speaker 1: of different traumatic experiences that you could have that could

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Speaker 1: lead to a diagnosis of PTSD. Dr Joe, You're right,

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Speaker 1: a lot of times it is typically pair with soldiers

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Speaker 1: in combat, but PTSD the trauma could come from sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: It could come from an accident, whether it's a car accident.

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Speaker 1: There could be anything traumatic that has happened to you

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Speaker 1: a specific event. It could be if you were abused,

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Speaker 1: some type of physical artercation. So yeah, it's just not

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Speaker 1: limited to combat war or soldiers. Right, And Jason, isn't

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Speaker 1: there a part of the diagnosis that talks also about

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Speaker 1: fearing for your life or or that you could have

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Speaker 1: been hard in some way? Am I correcting that? Yes?

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Speaker 1: You were very correct. So in order to meet the

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Speaker 1: criteria for PTSD, either your life must have been threatened,

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Speaker 1: or you watch somebody else whose life was either threatened

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Speaker 1: or severely injured, or I say, or again, but or

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Speaker 1: a sexually violated So that's where it encompasses not only

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Speaker 1: your life being threatened, you witnessing someone else being injured

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Speaker 1: or their life being threatened, but also any type of

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Speaker 1: sexual violation. Okay, Okay, got you? Yeah, And I think

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Speaker 1: that's again the point that maybe people don't always know

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Speaker 1: is that it doesn't have to be that the thing

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Speaker 1: happened to you. It could have also been something that

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Speaker 1: you witnessed, right, or repeated exposure to images that are

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Speaker 1: horrific okay, okay, okay with the newest update, Yes, got you. Okay. So, Jason,

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Speaker 1: you of course practice something called prolonged exposure therapy, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of a gold star recommendation in terms of

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Speaker 1: treating PTS. Can you tell us more about what prolonged

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Speaker 1: exposure therapy is. Yeah, So, prolonged exposure therapy, it's an

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Speaker 1: evidence based treatment, so there's been decades of research to

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Speaker 1: prove that this treatment works for individuals with PTSD. And

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Speaker 1: in summary, prolonged exposure therapy has two big components in it.

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Speaker 1: One of those components is imaginal exposure and another is

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Speaker 1: in vivo exposure. And with prolonged exposure therapy, the person

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Speaker 1: is telling their story, not like you tell somebody what happened,

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Speaker 1: but they're telling their story or their re descripting the

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Speaker 1: trauma and first person so as if it were happening now.

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Speaker 1: And when they're telling a story is forcorded and the

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Speaker 1: reason it's recorded is because part of the exposure therapy

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Speaker 1: is to go back and listen to that recording. And

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Speaker 1: again there's two big components. The imaginal exposure, so you're

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Speaker 1: actually telling the therapist what happened. And then there's a

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Speaker 1: vivo exposure where you're going back to doing things that

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Speaker 1: you've avoided. So, for instance, if you've been avoiding large crowds,

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Speaker 1: or if you've been avoiding certain sounds or smells since

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Speaker 1: that trauma, that's a huge part of the therapist to

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Speaker 1: you know, work with the therapist so you can stop

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Speaker 1: avoiding whatever it is you're now avoiding since that trauma. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so tell me more about the recording the trauma and

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Speaker 1: then playing it back. How is that then used in therapy?

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Speaker 1: So prolonged exposure therapy is typically about eight to ten sessions,

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Speaker 1: so you don't start off recording the sessions, or you

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Speaker 1: do start off recording the sessions, but you don't start

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Speaker 1: off recording your actual trauma. Session three is when you

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Speaker 1: actually describe what happened to you. And with that, to

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Speaker 1: answer the question as far as recording it, you recorded

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Speaker 1: and listen to it daily at least once per day,

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Speaker 1: so that you not only just hear what happened to you,

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Speaker 1: but you kind of habituate to your story. So no

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Speaker 1: longer do you want to be so aroused when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about this traumatic event. You want to be able

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Speaker 1: to listen to it and hear some things that you

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Speaker 1: may have missed, maybe you're blaming yourself, and by recording

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Speaker 1: to it, you can hear way, I was scared in

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Speaker 1: that moment, so maybe I didn't cower or it wasn't

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Speaker 1: my fault. And a lot of times you can't hear

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Speaker 1: that when you're talking about it, but when you listen

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Speaker 1: to it, you hear it differently. Oh okay, and this

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Speaker 1: you know for those who you are listening, this is

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Speaker 1: something that I know very little about, so I'm learning

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Speaker 1: at the same time as you guys are. So this

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Speaker 1: definitely sounds fascinating. So Jason, you said that this would

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Speaker 1: not happen though until session three, So what are you

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Speaker 1: doing in sessions one and two? I'm guessing there's some

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Speaker 1: prep work before you get to this session. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: these questions are great because there's a lot of myths

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Speaker 1: around prolonged exposure therapy and people think that talking about

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Speaker 1: the trauma will make it worse. With reality, not talking

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Speaker 1: about it makes it worse, It makes it more daunting,

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Speaker 1: more scary. So in session one and two, we're really

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Speaker 1: focusing on the client or the individual understanding the ration.

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Speaker 1: Now for the treatment, you have to buy into it,

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Speaker 1: and you have to understand why you're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about it. You have to understand why you're gonna revisit

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Speaker 1: these places and situations that you've avoided, because if you

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Speaker 1: don't understand why you're doing it, you're gonna think that's stupid.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna make me worse. You're gonna get to

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Speaker 1: session three and four, and when it's time to actually

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Speaker 1: describe what happened, you're not gonna want to do it.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna back out and drop out. So sessions one

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Speaker 1: and to focus on building rapport with the client and

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Speaker 1: actually going over some common reactions to trauma, because losing sleep,

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Speaker 1: having intimacy difficulties, whether it's accepting love, giving love, fear,

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Speaker 1: being angry at the world, being angry at yourself, all

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Speaker 1: these are common reactions to trauma that we just don't

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Speaker 1: know about. We think we're the only one experience in this.

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Speaker 1: So the therapists and the client has spend the whole hour,

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Speaker 1: and these sessions are typically ninety minutes because there's just

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Speaker 1: so much information being processed. So those first couple of

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Speaker 1: sessions are really spent to make sure you understand why

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Speaker 1: you're doing the treatment. Yeah, I would imagine that this

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Speaker 1: would probably not be something somebody would just sign up

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Speaker 1: for automatically, right, Like, I feel like there would have

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Speaker 1: to be some buy in and somebody really even explaining

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Speaker 1: to you why this would even be helpful for this

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Speaker 1: to even feel like it would be an attractive treatment. Yes,

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Speaker 1: because it's sometimes when you're just describing the treatment, you

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Speaker 1: can see the distress in them. They become anxious just

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Speaker 1: thinking about talking about it. Right, Yeah, Like this thing

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Speaker 1: that I'm already like super afraid of, I was traumatized by.

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Speaker 1: I've been spending all this energy to try to avoid

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Speaker 1: thinking about it, and now you're telling me that in

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Speaker 1: a matter of three sessions, we're gonna be talking all

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Speaker 1: about it, and then you're gonna want me to replay

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Speaker 1: it every day, right right? Yes, Dr Jo, You're right.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like, um, I think about it, the trauma,

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Speaker 1: the way we process it or did not process it.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like a closet that's stuff with a bunch

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Speaker 1: of clothes. So when you and the therapists work through it,

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Speaker 1: you're sorting out the trauma, you're taking things out, you're

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Speaker 1: giving some stuff away, so then you can open that

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Speaker 1: closet door and all the clothes don't just pour out,

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Speaker 1: but you can actually see what's going on and be

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Speaker 1: able to look at it from a different lance. I

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Speaker 1: love that, Jason. So you said something really interesting in

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Speaker 1: in terms of like somebody listening back to the replay

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Speaker 1: of their telling the story that they may realize that

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Speaker 1: they can point out some emotions that they missed or

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Speaker 1: their pieces that they missed. Is this something that you're

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Speaker 1: training them to do, or like, how do you move

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Speaker 1: through session three to them having this homework then of

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Speaker 1: like re listening, what are the instructions for like when

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Speaker 1: they're listening at home. So another good question. So there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of homework involved. I will say that this

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Speaker 1: is a very intense treatment protocol. You would want to

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Speaker 1: designate at least one or two hours per day because

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Speaker 1: you need one hour to listen to the session in

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Speaker 1: the one hour to do the actual and FEVO exposure

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Speaker 1: homework assignments. And before we get to session three where

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Speaker 1: you're actually talking about your trauma, we're gonna rate that.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have a scale where you can measure your

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Speaker 1: level of discomfort or distress from zero to a hundred.

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Speaker 1: So you pick what that scale looks like you know,

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Speaker 1: we we have what's called anchor points, so you would

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Speaker 1: describe what's your one hundred, what's your zero, what's your fifty?

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Speaker 1: That way, when you're going through the imaginal exposure, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be asking you every five minutes where's your level

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Speaker 1: of distress, and you'll give me a number and you'll

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Speaker 1: get right back to the trauma. So it's not really conversational.

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Speaker 1: So it's very different than traditional psychotherapy because you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be doing a lot of talking. I'm gonna be asking

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Speaker 1: your probing questions. I'll be making sure that you stay

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Speaker 1: engaged and you're not telling me in the third person,

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Speaker 1: but you're actually describing what's happening in the moment. That

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Speaker 1: it's called a sub scale, but this is a subjective

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Speaker 1: unit of distress scale that you're gonna again, every five minutes,

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Speaker 1: give me a number. In that way, as these sessions progress,

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Speaker 1: we can easily see whether your sons are going down

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Speaker 1: or up. Mm hmm, okay, And if they're going up,

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Speaker 1: then what happens If they're going up, we will look

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Speaker 1: at what is happening. Are you listening to the homework

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Speaker 1: or to the sessions? When it comes to the vivo sessions,

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Speaker 1: that which which means doing things in real life. Are

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Speaker 1: you going out too, for instance, Walmart? If you've been

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Speaker 1: avoiding Walmart, are you going out to Walmart every day

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Speaker 1: and spending at least forty five minutes or so in

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Speaker 1: the store. Because when you're avoiding something, if you only

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Speaker 1: go for us I say, a few minutes, that doesn't

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Speaker 1: give your body enough time to habituate your distress level

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Speaker 1: to come down. Are you're doing is popping in and

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Speaker 1: coming right back out. It doesn't give you time to

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Speaker 1: even tell yourself that you can handle this. So one,

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Speaker 1: if the stress is going up, we want to look

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Speaker 1: at are we starting off with something too high on

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Speaker 1: your hierarchy list? So do we need to scale it back?

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Speaker 1: Is Walmart too big? Do we need to just start

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Speaker 1: with the dollar store? M okay? In terms of if

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Speaker 1: you're avoiding stores or public situations right, and sometimes it

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Speaker 1: can just be a matter of tweaking a few things.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the person doesn't understand the rationale, so they say, well,

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Speaker 1: I haven't been doing the homework and that's the big

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Speaker 1: thing that would kind of contribute to why your distress

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Speaker 1: is not moving right direction. Okay, So what is the

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Speaker 1: typical homework Jason, Like, let's say I'm coming to you

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Speaker 1: because I was in a bad car accident and now

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Speaker 1: like I have been terrified to drive, you know, I

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Speaker 1: just take public transportation. I don't want to get behind

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Speaker 1: the wheel of a car anymore. What might the homework

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Speaker 1: look like related to that situation? You would guide me

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Speaker 1: how we will build your your hierarchy list. So it

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Speaker 1: probably would be something like just you not even driving,

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Speaker 1: but sitting in the car. But some people are more

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Speaker 1: comfortable with others driving. Some people want to drive themselves.

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Speaker 1: So maybe you're just taking the car around the block.

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Speaker 1: You're just standing in the neighborhood for thirty forty minutes.

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Speaker 1: You're comfortable doing that. Then you would work up to

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Speaker 1: driving over fifty miles per hour. You're work into driving

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Speaker 1: in traffic. You work up to driving in the fast lane.

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Speaker 1: I work with the client who did have I don't

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Speaker 1: think her trauma was a car accident, but she was

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Speaker 1: really nervous about driving on the highway. So we have

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Speaker 1: to really work up to that driving without the GPS,

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Speaker 1: because GPS is a safety mechanism, and even though some

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Speaker 1: place you know where to go you're afraid you're gonna

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Speaker 1: get lost. So that's how we would kind of work

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Speaker 1: your way up to that got you. And are you

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Speaker 1: teaching any kind of grounding exercises so that people can

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Speaker 1: kind of manage their anxiety and the situations. Is that

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Speaker 1: also part of the homework? That is so in session

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Speaker 1: one we go over breathing retraining where you teach yourself

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Speaker 1: how to relax, how to slow your breathing down, and

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Speaker 1: how to focus on your breath. And that's something that

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Speaker 1: you can do throughout the treatment so that you can't

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Speaker 1: ground yourself when your your distress level just becomes so

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Speaker 1: heightened that you can't you feel like you feel like

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Speaker 1: you can't manage it. So the breathing cognitus is key.

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Speaker 1: So Session three is where you tell the story and

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Speaker 1: you recorded what is happening in the rest of those sessions.

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Speaker 1: So session for up until the last session, and that

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Speaker 1: can fluctuate depending on the person you're coming in. We're

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Speaker 1: going to go over the agenda, so I'll ask you

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Speaker 1: about your homework. What was that like making sure you

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Speaker 1: complete the homework. If you did not complete the homework,

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Speaker 1: I want to find out what barriers got in a

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Speaker 1: way will stopped you. Then we'll go over the imaginal exposure,

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Speaker 1: so you're gonna recount your trauma. We're gonna do that

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Speaker 1: typically about thirty or forty minutes on that So depending

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Speaker 1: on what the traumatic event is, we may go through

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Speaker 1: your trauma three or four times. And for some people

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Speaker 1: there's not a certain moment, there may be multiple moments. Say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, somebody was in a really bad fight, so

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Speaker 1: there was maybe one part where they were being choked

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Speaker 1: and that was really distressing. Then there was another part

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Speaker 1: whatever we're calling the police, which was really distressing. So

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Speaker 1: this may have taken place over the span of two

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Speaker 1: to three hours. Possibly we're not gonna have time for

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Speaker 1: you to walk through that whole two to three hours.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna focus in on what's called hotspots. Those are

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Speaker 1: wants of distress. You can really pinpoint and highlight where

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Speaker 1: you really feel like you're in danger and they're still

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Speaker 1: bothering you. So during those sessions for till the end

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Speaker 1: of treatment, we're gonna narrow down the hotspots and really

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Speaker 1: talk through those to the point where the distresses is

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Speaker 1: no longer present. And so that's really what the rest

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Speaker 1: of treatment is it's kind of you retelling the story

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Speaker 1: until your level of distress feels much more manageable. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you're retelling the story, and then you're also working

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Speaker 1: through your hierarchy lists, which consists of anything that you

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Speaker 1: put on the list that you've been avoiding. So it

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Speaker 1: could be and it's not always things like if you're

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Speaker 1: using an example of driving, it may not just be driving.

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Speaker 1: But maybe now since the car accident, you don't talk

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Speaker 1: to certain people who were in the car. You don't

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Speaker 1: you don't talk to your family, you don't talk to friends,

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Speaker 1: you don't watch any movies to have anything like to

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Speaker 1: do with the cars. So we're putting all of those

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Speaker 1: things on the list. So maybe used to work out,

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Speaker 1: Now you don't go to the gym anymore, that's gonna

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Speaker 1: be on the list. Anything that's that's altered your lifestyle

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Speaker 1: will be on that list. And is there ever a

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Speaker 1: case where you are doing some of this with them, Jason,

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Speaker 1: So some of this in vivo work, is it always

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Speaker 1: on their own or are you accompanying them for some

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Speaker 1: of this? Uh? Not. Some clinicians do, but typically it's

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Speaker 1: mostly really empowering the clients to do this on their

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Speaker 1: own they'll recorded. There's was called a pe coach app

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Speaker 1: so they can kind of jot down what the activity was,

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Speaker 1: what their distress level was, and then we'll review the homework.

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Speaker 1: Concession there's a major component. So to kind of recap,

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Speaker 1: we go over the homework, We talked through the trauma,

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Speaker 1: and then we processed the emotions, you know, whatever came

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Speaker 1: out of when you were recapping your trauma. So, for instance,

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Speaker 1: if there was a car acci them and you're telling

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Speaker 1: me the story, a lot of times we forget certain

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Speaker 1: pieces of the accident, and it's always amazing how we

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Speaker 1: remember certain things. After session three, four or five up

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Speaker 1: until the end, we're starting to remember the car that

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Speaker 1: in front of us, what the car looked like, what

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Speaker 1: Saul was playing on the radio, and we process all

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Speaker 1: those things. In doing so we figure out, hey, maybe

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Speaker 1: I've not been doing this because of you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't listen to let's say Tupac because Tupac was on

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Speaker 1: the radio at the time and I didn't put that

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Speaker 1: connection together, right, Okay. So it's also helping them to

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Speaker 1: try to remember any pieces of the story that may

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Speaker 1: have caused them to avoid new things that they didn't

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Speaker 1: even think about at the moment, right, yes, yes, dr Shore,

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Speaker 1: you're right, or again using the example of the accident,

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Speaker 1: they could be blaming themselves because they worked and hit

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Speaker 1: the media. But then going through the exposure, you figure

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Speaker 1: out there was a big pothole in the road that

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Speaker 1: you were trying to avoid, or there was something you know,

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Speaker 1: there was no where for you to to turn. If

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Speaker 1: you swerve right, you would have hit somebody else and

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Speaker 1: endangered them. And we forget those key pieces when you know,

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Speaker 1: when we're in the moment, and we start to blame

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Speaker 1: ourselves or blame whomever. And so it sounds like how

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Speaker 1: much time then, and all of the sessions ninety minutes

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Speaker 1: are just those first two know, all of the sessions

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Speaker 1: are ninety minutes, so roughly about ten minutes to the homework,

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Speaker 1: dirty minutes to the imaginal exposure, another thirty minutes to

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Speaker 1: the processing of the emotions, and then another ten minutes

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Speaker 1: to go over the next homework assignment. Got you okay?

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Speaker 1: So in that thirty minutes of processing the emotion is

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Speaker 1: when you might point out, like some of the connections

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Speaker 1: that you're seeing made between like what they told you

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Speaker 1: in session three and now in session six elements that

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Speaker 1: they forgot. Yes. Yes, So we can't always keep in

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Speaker 1: the log of that working for the clinician to to

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Speaker 1: be present, to remember to take notes, because when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about something so so serious and so important to

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Speaker 1: the patient, you definitely don't want to ask questions that

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Speaker 1: you should have known at this point in the session. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Is it standard for you to record your own sessions

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Speaker 1: so that you maybe can go back and watch so

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Speaker 1: you remember, like any details or is it all not

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Speaker 1: taking No, that's a great point. So when I was

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Speaker 1: trained on the protocol, I did have to record the

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Speaker 1: sessions and somebody listened to them and provided me with

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Speaker 1: feedback to make sure that I was certified that I

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Speaker 1: could pass the certification process. Now I don't record the sessions.

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Speaker 1: When I was first starting to begin the treatment or

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Speaker 1: administering the treatment, I would I would have our sessions recorded.

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Speaker 1: God you okay, just ahead. It's different for a what

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's different to listen to yourself

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Speaker 1: being recorded. So the first couple of sessions their record

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Speaker 1: as well, and that helps you so that when it's

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Speaker 1: time to talk about the trauma, you're not so focused

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Speaker 1: on how you sound on the speaker. Yeah, and that

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, And I think you know, most of

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Speaker 1: us in training, I've had that experience of having to

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Speaker 1: watch ourselves on tape and it's like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I sound awful. Yeah. Yeah, So are there certain people, Jason,

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Speaker 1: that this would not be a good fit for. If

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Speaker 1: you're actively suicidal, we would want to manage the crisis first,

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Speaker 1: So that would be somebody who we would not provide

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Speaker 1: the treatment for. There's a lot of myths about you know,

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Speaker 1: people who maybe you have a substance use addiction. You

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Speaker 1: still could follow the same protocol and you could do

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Speaker 1: the treatment. We would just want to make sure that

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Speaker 1: you're not drinking while you're doing the exercises. So as

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Speaker 1: long as you you can manage that, we wouldn't prolong

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Speaker 1: treatment just because you have an addiction. I would imagine

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Speaker 1: it might be difficult to do some of this also

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Speaker 1: with anybody who's having any like disruptions in reality, So

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Speaker 1: like if you have any type of psychotic disorder, and

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00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,640
Speaker 1: again and it's on a case by case basis, but

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Speaker 1: you don't want to try to administer the treatment to

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Speaker 1: someone who doesn't fit the criteria. So for instance, a

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Speaker 1: lot of times PTSD and generalize anxiety disorder can look similar.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't have an accurate diagnosis, and you're

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Speaker 1: trying to do pe with somebody who doesn't have a trauma,

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Speaker 1: but they are anxious about every thing or a lot

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Speaker 1: of things, I should say, then you're gonna run into

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Speaker 1: a roadblock if there was not a specific event where

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Speaker 1: they felt like they were threatened or there was an injury,

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Speaker 1: because if they're telling the story, you're not gonna be

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Speaker 1: able to challenge their emotions because the trauma wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of times when people have generalized

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Speaker 1: anxiety disorder, the anxiety doesn't necessarily come from like some

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Speaker 1: traumatic experience, and so there isn't really an emotion to

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Speaker 1: connect it to. Yeah, that's correct, somebody else who would

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Speaker 1: not be a good candidate personality disorders or antisocial personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: You want to make sure again, some people may have

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Speaker 1: been in multiple fights and committed numerous crimes and it

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Speaker 1: may seem traumatic, but then if you try to administer

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Speaker 1: this protocol, the person will actually say, well, I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: this physical artication. And so when you're trying to manage

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Speaker 1: their distress, you're gonna run into a roadblock because they

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Speaker 1: really don't have any distress, right at least it related

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Speaker 1: to what you think what might be trauma exactly got you.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like a lot of this really depends

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Speaker 1: on accurate diagnosis. To have an accurate diagnosis is so important. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: are there any other uses for PE, Jason, besides PTSD? Well,

430
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: it's still if you have certain phobious you wouldn't necessarily

431
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: you would still use a component of it, which would

432
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: be the exposure therapy. If say you're afraid of spiders

433
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: or snakes, you can still use the exposure component. But

434
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: for PE in particular, PTSD would be the primary use

435
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: of the treatment. Okay. So, Jason, if somebody is listening

436
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: and they're thinking like, Okay, even though this sounds like

437
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: I might not want to do this, it sounds like

438
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 1: it actually could be good for me. How might they

439
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: find a therapist who is trained administering PE. I would

440
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: send you a few links to sites to have actual

441
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 1: clinicians who are trained in the in the protocol, because

442
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: you don't want to just seek out any I mean

443
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: with therapist. Therapists are are great. However, this protocol myself

444
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: if I would not be as efficient and if I

445
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: did not have the training. It's not something that you

446
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 1: can just kind of pick up and run with because

447
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: they're gonna start talking about the trauma and then they're

448
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: gonna stop, and if you don't know what to do

449
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 1: how to get them back in the moment in the session,

450
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be re traumatizing them, but you're gonna

451
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: almost kind of be selling them a bad deal because

452
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: they're gonna walk away from the session thinking that hey,

453
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: this wasn't helpful. If you don't understand the ration now,

454
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be able to to sell it to

455
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: provide them with the confidence that in the reassurance that

456
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: they need. So I kind of want to go back

457
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: to something that you said earlier in terms of like

458
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: sessions went into about providing the buy in. You already

459
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: kind of mentioned that people are like, oh, how is

460
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: that gonna help me to retail this? Are there are

461
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: other common things that come up for people when they

462
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: are maybe a little resistant to trying this, I will say,

463
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: figuring out the time. And also you want to make

464
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: sure that your spouse or your family they don't necessarily

465
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: need to know what you're discussing in the session. But

466
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: I found one working with certain individuals. If they're f

467
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: emily knows that they are going to be dedicating a

468
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: significant amount of time to this treatment, then that helps

469
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: them because they have more support at home, so it

470
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: is they're less likely to avoid. Is there ever a

471
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: point where you might brain family members in as a

472
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: part of the session or no, Most definitely, if with

473
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: the client's permission. Definitely, when going over the list of

474
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: things that you're going to not avoid, sometimes family and

475
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: friends they want to help. So, for instance, if you

476
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: have difficulty in restaurants and crowded settings and you like

477
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: to sit where you can see the exit because a

478
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: lot of times with PTSD we have hyper vigilance, so

479
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: being able to see where everything is at and seeing

480
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: the exit is key. And family may go along and say, yes,

481
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 1: give us that boot in the corner. But if family

482
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: knows that you're working on not avoiding, then there'll be

483
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: more apt to say, well, let's just sit in the middle,

484
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: even though it's going to be tough, but I'm here

485
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: with you. Yeah. I've had great success when spouses or

486
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: family members have been present. Again, not throughout the entire sessions,

487
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 1: but just for a brief moment to get their buy

488
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: in and support, because it's it's so tough working with trauma.

489
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: We keep it to ourselves. We feel ashamed, embarious, guilty,

490
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: all of the above. So the more support we can have,

491
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: the better. Yeah, And I would imagine that this is

492
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: something that family members and you know, other loved ones

493
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: would really be excited about because I think a lot

494
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: of times people don't know how to support their loved ones.

495
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: But this feels very tangible, right, Like I can sit

496
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: here with you as we kind of sit in the

497
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: middle of the restaurant and not go towards you know,

498
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: the booth that looks at the exit. So it gives

499
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: them something very tangible to do, very much so. And

500
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: also early on in the sessions, when we go over

501
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: those common reactions to trauma, that's something that I always

502
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: encourage patients to discuss, you know, if they're comfortable so

503
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: that now your family they can support you in that

504
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: way and say, oh, this is why you, you know,

505
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: have trouble sleeping, or this is why you have trouble

506
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: showing affection, this is why you have such a bad

507
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: view of other people. You don't trust anybody you know

508
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: have more empathy and not just sympathy. Right. So you

509
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: mentioned already Jason that you have a certification in doing this,

510
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: So typically are people are providers who administer PE Do

511
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: they have the same kind of certification? Typically they do.

512
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: So I've gone through the training a couple of times,

513
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: and it's always good to go through it over the years,

514
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 1: as you know, keeping up your your skill set and

515
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: stand up today with the latest and greatest. So one

516
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: place that people can visit will be the Center for

517
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: Deployment Psychology. They provide training. Also, the Department of Veteran

518
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: Affairs they provide training as well. And are there any

519
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: resources that you would suggest for anybody who wants to

520
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: know more about this, Like you know clients who may

521
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: be thinking this may be a good fit for them.

522
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: Are their resources that you typically suggest? Yes, there's a

523
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: couple of trusted YouTube links that I like to show

524
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: the patients too, because when they hear from other patients

525
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: who have completed the protocol, then I think it gives

526
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: them more hope and something again tangible. They can see

527
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: that Okay, this is worked for this person even though

528
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: they felt like they couldn't ever drive again, or could

529
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: never enjoy concerts again, because again they could be overwhelming

530
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: just thinking about doing those things. Showing those clips helps

531
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: a lot, Okay, so we'll also include those in the

532
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: show notes once to you think those to me? Okay? Perfect? Perfect?

533
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: So where can people find out more information about you? Jason?

534
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: Can you share your website as well as any social

535
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: media handles you'd like to share? Sure? My Instagram handle

536
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: is j Phillips ms W j P H I L

537
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: l I P S M s W and my website

538
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: is www dot p n P coach c O A

539
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: c H dot com. Great, and of course we've woll

540
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: include that in the show notes for anybody who maybe

541
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: driving or can't take it down for whatever reason. Well,

542
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: thank you so much for chatting with us today, Jason,

543
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks, Dr Joy. I really

544
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: enjoyed this podcast talking with you. Thank you. I'm so

545
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: thankful Jason was able to share his expertise with us today.

546
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: Be sure to grab your phone right now and share

547
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: this episode with two friends who you think would really

548
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: enjoy it. To find out more information about Jason and

549
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: his practice, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black

550
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: Girls dot Com slash Session one oh four. Remember that

551
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: if you're searching for a therapist in your area, check

552
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: out our directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com

553
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: slash directory, and make sure to visit our online store

554
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com slash Shop, where

555
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: you can find our guid It, affirmation track, break up journal,

556
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: or your new favorite Therapy for Black Girls T shirt

557
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: or mug. Thank y'all so much for joining me again

558
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation

559
00:29:44,640 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take get care, the best pen, wipen,

560
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: the best wood