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Speaker 1: Ranger. How are you doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great, sir.

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Speaker 1: How are you just swell? Where are you you Nashville?

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Speaker 2: You text them in Texas outside of Austin.

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Speaker 1: Oh all right, we were just in Austin. When we

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Speaker 1: were in Austin, like November, we're doing an event there

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Speaker 1: at Hill Country Bible Church.

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Speaker 2: Okay, sure, I know. Well, well next time we we

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Speaker 2: should get together that happens again.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, So how do you like doing the

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Speaker 1: the podcast and ministry thing? You know?

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Speaker 2: I love it. I told I told a man this morning,

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Speaker 2: I said, I am I am giddy this morning. I've

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Speaker 2: got Frank Turt coming on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, wish our kids thought that.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, in that aspect, you know, I love it.

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Speaker 2: I've done the podcast for a long time, but we

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Speaker 2: just opened it up to guests really recently last few months.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're you're at the top of that list.

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Speaker 1: Oh great, happy to be on. Thanks rolling it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, Frank, thank you so much for It's such

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Speaker 2: an honor that you're you would willing, you're willing to

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Speaker 2: give up some time and be on the podcast today.

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Speaker 1: My pleasure, Granger, thanks for having me, and glad you're

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Speaker 1: having guests on now. Otherwise this wouldn't happen.

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Speaker 2: That's that's right, you know. I want to tell you though,

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Speaker 2: before we get started. I think we have a we

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Speaker 2: have a fundamental difference, and and I think for fairness

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Speaker 2: of the conversation that we'll have, we should we should

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Speaker 2: get it out of the way. That way we kind

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Speaker 2: of know where we stand as we as we discuss things.

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Speaker 2: I am a Dallas Cowboys fan, grew up in Dallas.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you're from Dallas, yanda be a Cowboys fan,

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Speaker 1: you should be, I know, from New Jersey, I should

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Speaker 1: be a Giant fan. And both of our teams stink.

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Speaker 2: It's very unfortunate. And now is that a theological difference

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Speaker 2: we have here?

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Speaker 1: Well, I do say that whenever the Cowboys win, it's

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Speaker 1: living proof that Satan is alive and will Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I do say that as matter a fact.

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Speaker 2: I think I've heard you say that before.

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Speaker 1: Although although Jerry Jones does give the Salvation Army, so

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Speaker 1: I have to give him that, Okay, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't think it's enough for me. I wish we could

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Speaker 2: do away with Jerry Jones and keep the Salvation Army.

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Speaker 2: I think we could do that Yeah, well.

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Speaker 1: He just likes to be too involved. I think in

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Speaker 1: day to day optsbody, who was I what was I reading? Recently?

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Speaker 1: Some former cowboy said that so much of being a

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Speaker 1: Cowboy is the extracurricular stuff you need to do, like

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Speaker 1: the photos and the meet and greets and all that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't as focused on football as it needed to be.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think that explains a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah and yeah, growing up in Dallas, it's unfortunate that

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Speaker 2: I'm a Cowboys fan. But I won't hold the Giants

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Speaker 2: thing against you because because you're from there as well.

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Speaker 2: You didn't you didn't You didn't choose the Giants. The

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Speaker 2: Giants chose you.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I was there. It was my dad's team,

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Speaker 1: So what was I going to do? You know?

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Speaker 2: That's right. Well, we've been apologizing for our football teams,

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Speaker 2: which which brings me to a point, because it's funny.

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Speaker 2: I had someone recently say somehow something about Christian apologist

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Speaker 2: came up, and somebody commented and said, it is so

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Speaker 2: sad that Christians need to designate people to apologize for

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Speaker 2: what they have done to the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty silly, isn't it. It goes to show

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Speaker 1: that's really our fault that we don't even explain what

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Speaker 1: it is, you know, and people think that we're apologizing,

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Speaker 1: when in fact, it comes from a Greek word which

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Speaker 1: means to defend. It comes from First Peter three fifteen.

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Speaker 1: It's ready to give an answer, give a reason for

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Speaker 1: the hope that you have. Yeah, so it's not we're

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Speaker 1: not apologizing. We're actually saying, here's the evidence we have.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if a person was astute, they would

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Speaker 1: recognize the word apologists because it's used politically all the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's a Trump apologist, or he's a Harris apologist, somebody

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Speaker 1: like that. You know, actually there weren't very many Harris apologists.

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Speaker 1: I have to correct myself, but you get the idea.

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Speaker 1: The idea, I mean, there are people who are, you know,

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Speaker 1: saying that I'm advocating for this politician or this political position.

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Speaker 1: So it's the same thing in Christianity. We're trying to

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Speaker 1: give evidence that what we think about Christianity is indeed true,

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Speaker 1: that in Christianity is indeed true. That's that's what apologetics means.

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Speaker 2: When did you first start calling yourself an apologist?

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I can't tell you. Well, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I would call myself one. I came to faith

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Speaker 1: through apologetics. So I was brought up in New Jersey,

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Speaker 1: and I was Catholic, because it's the law. You're either Catholic, Jewish,

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Speaker 1: or you don't care if you're from New Jersey. I

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Speaker 1: went to Catholic high school, and I always believed in

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Speaker 1: God because I knew there had to be a first cause.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't know who Jesus was. And it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until I went into the Navy and was down in

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Speaker 1: flight school in Pensacola, Florida, that I met the son

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Speaker 1: of a Methodist minister who also happened to be a

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Speaker 1: Dallas Cowboy fan bokay and Yeah. He turned out later

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Speaker 1: to be a pastor, and I kept asking him questions

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Speaker 1: and he finally said, look, you just need to get

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Speaker 1: Josh mcdal books, Evidence, de mans a Verdict and more

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Speaker 1: than a Carpenter. So I read those books. Those books

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Speaker 1: were written like in the seventies, and they've been updated

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Speaker 1: since then. In fact, I was involved in one of

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Speaker 1: the updates ironically, But in any event, I read those

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Speaker 1: books and said, Wow, Christianity is true and then when

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Speaker 1: I got out of the Navy, I happened providentially to

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Speaker 1: meet Norman Geisler, who was the Michael Jordan of Apologetics

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Speaker 1: at the time, and he was starting a seminary here

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Speaker 1: in Charlotte, North Carolina. So in nineteen ninety three, my

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Speaker 1: wife and three kids and I moved to Charlotte to

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Speaker 1: go to seminary. Because there was no internet, you couldn't

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Speaker 1: take seminary online. And so that's how I got involved

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Speaker 1: in Apologetics, and he and I wrote a couple of books.

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Speaker 1: One of them is called I Don't Have Enough Faith

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Speaker 1: to be an Atheist? Yeah, and so, and then I

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Speaker 1: started a ministry called Cross Examined dot org, where we

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Speaker 1: go to colleges, high schools, and churches and present the evidence,

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Speaker 1: largely from that book, that Christianity is indeed true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's fascinating because you are the Lord is the

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Speaker 2: Lord has gifted you in this way for sure. I

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Speaker 2: mean everyone should be an apologist, you know, we're we're

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Speaker 2: all called the Church should all we should all be apologist,

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Speaker 2: but I think we could admit that some are better

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Speaker 2: than others, and the Lord has gifted you certainly in

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Speaker 2: that I believe I would call it intellectual worship?

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Speaker 1: Is them say that and they say that, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Think when I see you on stage and I see

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Speaker 2: you traveling in your all these these college campuses, and

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Speaker 2: you're you're defending the faith and you're you're doing it,

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Speaker 2: and you might not think in a patient way, but

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Speaker 2: I believe you are. You're extremely patient and and to me,

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Speaker 2: that is worship.

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Speaker 1: That is a form of Oh oh, I thought you're

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Speaker 1: using it like like some people will say that apologists

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Speaker 1: are worshiping their intellect.

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Speaker 2: I do not mean. I do mean tho.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, all right, yeah, some will say that

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Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. Well, yeah, we're supposed to

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Speaker 1: love the Lord. You go with all your heart, soul, strength,

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Speaker 1: and mind, mind right, and nothing goes, nothing gets to

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Speaker 1: the heart without first going through the head.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So we're if we bypass the head on the way

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Speaker 1: to the heart. That can be problematic because if you

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Speaker 1: follow your emotions to your impulses, you're going to wind

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Speaker 1: up in a very dark place. Of course, the Bible

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Speaker 1: says guard your heart. Doesn't say follow your heart, say

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Speaker 1: guard your heart because everything you do flows from it.

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Speaker 1: That's Proverbs four twenty three, which I think is the

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Speaker 1: second most important verse in the Bible for today's culture

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Speaker 1: other than the Gospel, because you know, our culture thinks, oh,

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Speaker 1: follow your heart. No no, no, no, no, guard it, guard it,

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Speaker 1: because if you follow it without reason or without moral restraint,

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Speaker 1: you're going to You're going to wind up addicted, broken, alone,

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Speaker 1: and probably prematurely dead if you follow your heart without

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Speaker 1: moral restraint. Yet that's what our culture tells us to do.

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Speaker 2: Amen, right, yeah, Mark Mark twelve thirty is where Jesus

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Speaker 2: adds mind to our commandment to love our Lord, our God.

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Speaker 2: Jesus adds mind. It's fascinating that he does that, and

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Speaker 2: it makes perfect sense. And that's where I'm saying this

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Speaker 2: intellectual worship. I'm actually that's a compliment. I'm saying in

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Speaker 2: a good way. I believe that we a form of worship,

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Speaker 2: should be exercising the gift of the mind that has

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Speaker 2: been given to us so that we could examine the evidence.

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Speaker 2: Not in a way really not in a way for

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Speaker 2: us to be reborn and to receive new hearts, but

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Speaker 2: really it's an overflow of the new heart that has

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Speaker 2: been given to us in the new birth that we

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Speaker 2: then go to the world and say look, look and

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Speaker 2: see the evidence. It's clear, it's all around you. This

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Speaker 2: is what Paul does in Romans.

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Speaker 1: Want that's right. And I think there's a difference as

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Speaker 1: well that might be helpful to people. The difference is

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Speaker 1: the difference between belief that and belief in. Belief that

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Speaker 1: is getting evidence that God exists, that Jesus rose from

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Speaker 1: the dead, that the Bibles telling the truth. But all

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Speaker 1: the belief that in the world won't get your moral

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Speaker 1: transgressions forgiven. For that you got to go from belief

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Speaker 1: that to belief in. There's a difference. Even James, the

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Speaker 1: half brother of Jesus, who wrote that little book in

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Speaker 1: the New Testament called James, Oh good, You're good. You're

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Speaker 1: with me all right? Even he said, he said, even

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Speaker 1: the demons believe that God exists, but they tremble. You know,

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Speaker 1: demons know that God exists better than we do because

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Speaker 1: they're in the spiritual realm, but they don't trust in him.

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Speaker 1: There's a difference because there's a difference between belief that

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Speaker 1: and belief in. In fact, we know this in relationships.

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Speaker 1: When I first met my wife forty years ago, I

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Speaker 1: got evidence that she would be a good wife. But

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Speaker 1: all the evidence in the world didn't make her my wife.

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Speaker 1: I had to take a step of trust in her

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Speaker 1: to ask her to be my wife, and in a

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Speaker 1: momentary lapse of judgment, she said yes. See, that's the

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Speaker 1: difference between belief that and belief in. One is of

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Speaker 1: the head belief that, but belief in is not only

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Speaker 1: a the head, it's of the heart. After you know

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Speaker 1: that Jesus is the Savior, trust in him. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, John puts belief that and belief in into

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Speaker 1: one verse. It's the last verse of chapter twenty I'm paraphrase,

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Speaker 1: and he says in the Gospel, he says, these things

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Speaker 1: were written down so that you may believe that Jesus

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Speaker 1: is the Savior, and that by believing in him, you

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Speaker 1: may have life in his name. You see, he's putting

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Speaker 1: belief that, belief in into one verse. In other words,

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Speaker 1: he's saying, look, I wrote the Gospel and all these

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Speaker 1: miracles in it and what Jesus said and did, so

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Speaker 1: you could know that he's the Savior. But then you

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Speaker 1: can go from belief that to belief in. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can know that something's true and still not assent

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Speaker 1: to it right. We do that all the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: we know things are true, and we don't want it. It's inconvenient.

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Speaker 1: We want to avoid it. We suppress the truth, as

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Speaker 1: Paul said in Romans Chapter one. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of belief that out there that we suppress. But if

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Speaker 1: we're open to belief that, it's easy to move on

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Speaker 1: to belief in and belief that is in intellectual. Belief

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Speaker 1: in is not just intellectual, it's also emotional. By the way,

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Speaker 1: you said something earlier too, I want to mention you know,

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Speaker 1: you said everyone ought to be an apologist because we're

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Speaker 1: commanded to be an apologist. And people say, I'm not

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Speaker 1: an apologist. No, everybody is. You just might not be

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Speaker 1: a good one. It's like when people say I'm not

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Speaker 1: a theologian. No, you are a theologian. You just might

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Speaker 1: not be a good one. Right. Everybody has some sort

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Speaker 1: of belief about God. You know how people always caveat that,

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Speaker 1: They say, well, I'm not a theologian. Well, okay, you

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Speaker 1: actually are. You just might be. You might not be

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Speaker 1: an accomplished one, right, you might not know enough. Everybody

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Speaker 1: has some sort of belief of who God is and

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Speaker 1: what he does and why we're here. Everyone has some

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Speaker 1: sort of belief about that. They may have evidence for it,

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Speaker 1: they might not. They might have thought about it, they

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Speaker 1: might not. But everybody's a theologian of some kind, even

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Speaker 1: atheist or theology.

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Speaker 2: To ask who Jesus is, and instantly they're given you

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Speaker 2: theology when they answer that question.

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Speaker 1: That's right, everybody's given you theology. An atheist is there's

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Speaker 1: no God. That's a theological conclusion that there is no God.

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Speaker 1: They're af the theological conclusion.

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Speaker 2: I heard you say something interesting one time about when

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Speaker 2: when you're talking about someone being an apologist and someone

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Speaker 2: says I'm not I'm not apology, I'm not an apologist,

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Speaker 2: or I'm not a good one, and you said, well,

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Speaker 2: what happens when honestly, I don't remember the exact illustration

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Speaker 2: you used, but say, say what happens when your son

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Speaker 2: gets diagnosed with some kind of disease and suddenly you

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Speaker 2: begin to research and study and you learn everything you

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Speaker 2: can about that disease, And similarly, that happens in apologetics.

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Speaker 2: I remember specifically when this happened to me. It was

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Speaker 2: several years ago. I saw a comment on social media

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Speaker 2: by a guy and his name was Costy. Unfortunately, his

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Speaker 2: full name was Constantine. He's an atheist with the unfortunate

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Speaker 2: name of Constantine. But he comments on here and someone

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Speaker 2: was talking about a worship service and he said, I

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Speaker 2: think the big overdrive traumatized performance based worship services. I

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Speaker 2: think they're actually manipulating people. And and I commented, and

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Speaker 2: I say, and I knew he's an atheist. And I

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Speaker 2: commented and I said, you know, I agree with you

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Speaker 2: on this at some level, I do. And then we

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Speaker 2: started dming each other. That turned into we're talking to

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Speaker 2: each other on signal app and we're talking about the faith.

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Speaker 2: He's he is an atheist, which I I don't know

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Speaker 2: if I've ever met a true atheist that can stay

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Speaker 2: consistent in their beliefs, because in my mind, a true

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Speaker 2: atheist would say, we're all upon scum. You have, you

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Speaker 2: could do whatever you want. It's all an illusion, and

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Speaker 2: I don't really care. You know, we have one life

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Speaker 2: and nothing matters. And and but no one stays consistent

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Speaker 2: to that because they want to.

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Speaker 1: Nobody can live that. No one can live that.

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Speaker 2: So this guy cost He, ultimately what he's doing is

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Speaker 2: everyone every true atheist wants to advocate for to keep

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Speaker 2: something they're doing costy. In his case, he wanted to

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Speaker 2: keep sleep with his girlfriend and he didn't want his mother,

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Speaker 2: who was a Christian in Germany, telling him he couldn't

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Speaker 2: sleep with his girlfriend anymore. He didn't want to hear that,

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Speaker 2: So he builds a the odyssey for atheism. So we're

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Speaker 2: talking with this lasted Frank for over a year and

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Speaker 2: a half, back and forth, back and forth. Sometimes he

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Speaker 2: would get angry and he wants to argue about slavery

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Speaker 2: in the Bible, and I'd say, I'm happy to discuss

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Speaker 2: this with you. He wants to talk about all these

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Speaker 2: all these issues, the wars that you know, Christians have caused,

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Speaker 2: the slaughter that that Christianity has caused, and I'm happy

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Speaker 2: to discuss all of this with him. And we go

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Speaker 2: back and forth. A year and a half goes by,

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Speaker 2: and and finally I said, what would it what would

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Speaker 2: it take to convince you? You know, what would it take

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Speaker 2: for you to believe? Because he kept he keeps saying

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Speaker 2: things like, if God wants to me to believe, He'll

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Speaker 2: give me something to make me believe. I said, okay,

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Speaker 2: what would that be Just hypothetically, because God's given you

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Speaker 2: a lot. What would that be and he goesys, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I said, what if you saw a video

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Speaker 2: of the resurrection. He goes, they would be tampered with.

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Speaker 2: I know the video would be tampered And I said,

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Speaker 2: of course, of course you would say that. So then

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Speaker 2: so then I pulled at doctor Frank Turk and I said, Costy,

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Speaker 2: if Christianity was true, would you believe it? And he goes,

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Speaker 2: what does true mean? I said it. I said, outside

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Speaker 2: of your understanding, outside of time and space, it is true.

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Speaker 2: It is Christ died on the cross and was resurrected

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Speaker 2: and walked among the people, and said, turn from yourself

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Speaker 2: and look to me and be saved. If that happened,

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Speaker 2: would you believe it? And he goes no, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: believe that. And I said, then, brother, our conversation is finished.

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Speaker 2: We could go no further. After a year and a half,

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Speaker 2: I tell you, if it's true, and you say no,

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Speaker 2: then what are we talking about? And then I think

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Speaker 2: of you.

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Speaker 1: He was, as you say, just looking for a way

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Speaker 1: to validate the lifestyle he wanted to live. Now, to

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Speaker 1: be honest, Christians can do that too. Right. Christians might

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Speaker 1: have not have good evidence for what they believe, but

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Speaker 1: they want to convince themselves it's right. So we have

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Speaker 1: to all be aware that we might be self deluding ourselves. However,

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Speaker 1: I think, first of all, when people stay there's no

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Speaker 1: evidence for reviews, stimpally asked that, well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: why is there evidence for anything, not just for Christianity?

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Speaker 1: Why is this a world that's orderly where we can

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Speaker 1: discover cause and effect relationships? And why do we have

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Speaker 1: in mind that allows us to do that? I mean,

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Speaker 1: what explains that? I've noticed that atheists will say if

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Speaker 1: you ask them where did your brain come from? They'll say, well,

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Speaker 1: it came from a blind forces coming together and putting

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Speaker 1: it together. And to quote my friend John Lennox, John

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Speaker 1: Lennox when he asked people that question, you know, where

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Speaker 1: did your mind? Did your brain come from? They say,

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Speaker 1: it's a mindless process, And he says, and you trust it?

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Speaker 1: Why would you trust something that? Why would you trust

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Speaker 1: something that came from a mindless process? Right? Like suppose

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Speaker 1: a computer got put together by a tornado ranging through

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Speaker 1: a junk yard. Would you trust anything it told you?

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Speaker 1: Of course you wouldn't. Right, first, of all, it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: happen that way. But even if it did, it's not designed.

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Speaker 1: Why do you use Why do you say that you

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Speaker 1: are not designed? And the apparatus you're using to say

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Speaker 1: is not designed isn't designed either, So why would you

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Speaker 1: think what you're saying is true? Look, is it more

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Speaker 1: likely that your mind is the result of an undesigned

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Speaker 1: process your brain which produces your mind, or is it

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Speaker 1: more likely that your mind was made in the image

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Speaker 1: of the Great Mind so you could know truths outside

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Speaker 1: of your skull, including the Great Mind himself. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: more likely.

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Speaker 2: And they say to that, they say, this is God

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Speaker 2: of gaps theory. Frank, you're a god?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, first of all, I would say it's

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Speaker 1: not a God of the gaps theory. It's not. It's

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Speaker 1: not that we just haven't found a natural explanation for

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Speaker 1: the brain or the mind. It's that the brain and

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Speaker 1: the mind are positive evidences for an intelligent being. Just

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Speaker 1: like if you're walking along the beach and you see

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Speaker 1: John loves Mary in the sand, you don't just lack

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Speaker 1: a natural explanation for that. You do lack a natural explanation,

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Speaker 1: But John loves Mary in the sand is also positive

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Speaker 1: evidence for an intelligent being, and a mind is evidence

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Speaker 1: for an intelligent being. It doesn't. You don't just lack

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Speaker 1: in that. You do. But it's not just that it's

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Speaker 1: positive evidence for So it's not a god of the

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Speaker 1: gaps argument. We're not arguing from what we don't know.

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Speaker 1: We're arguing from what we do know. We do know

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Speaker 1: that messages come from minds, and in every cell in

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Speaker 1: our body there's a message three point two billion letters long. Okay,

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Speaker 1: where do messages go?

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Speaker 2: They don't.

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Speaker 1: They don't happen by natural forces. They don't originate from

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Speaker 1: natural forces. They may be reproduced through natural forces, Yes,

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Speaker 1: that happens. You know, life gives fourth life, But life itself,

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Speaker 1: where does that come from? It's not from the wind,

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Speaker 1: the rain. It's not from the four fundamental forces gravity,

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Speaker 1: strong and weak, nuclear forces, and electromagnetism. There's something else

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Speaker 1: going on here. And by the way, even if you

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Speaker 1: were to say that everything came from those four forces,

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Speaker 1: where did those four forces come from?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And why are they so persistent and consistent? Natural laws

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Speaker 1: come from lawgivers, just like every law comes from a lawgiver.

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Speaker 1: And so the very apparatus. Even if you were to

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Speaker 1: make a case I saw you did a podcast, I

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Speaker 1: just saw the title for it on evolution. Even if

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Speaker 1: one could make the case that macro revolution is true

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Speaker 1: from the good to you via the zoo, right, there's

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Speaker 1: no intelligence behind it. Even if you could make that case,

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Speaker 1: the natural laws that drive evolution are evidence of a mind,

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Speaker 1: not just a mind that created the laws, but a

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Speaker 1: mind that sustains these laws right now. This is the

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Speaker 1: Aristotle Aquinas argument that says, the world as it operates

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Speaker 1: right now needs a present cause. Why is everything so orderly?

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Speaker 1: Why does it do the same thing over and over again?

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Speaker 1: Why can we ascertain truth about the real world and

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Speaker 1: cause and effect relationships outside of our skull? Because this

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Speaker 1: universe was created and is sustained by a mind. That's

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Speaker 1: how we can do science, by the way, that's that's

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Speaker 1: how we find cause and effect. We find cause and

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Speaker 1: effect because this world is orderly, a world of orderly

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Speaker 1: cause and effect, and our minds are oriented to discover that.

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Speaker 2: You've read a lot of C. S. Lewis Mere Christianity.

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Speaker 1: Oh. C. S Lewis is, Yeah, he's one of my favorites. C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis and John Lennox has written on this. Ed Fays,

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Speaker 1: who's a Catholic apologist, has written on this. I wrote

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Speaker 1: it on a book called Stealing from God, Why atheists

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Speaker 1: need God to make their case. I think actually the

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Speaker 1: best arguments for God are not even most of the

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Speaker 1: arguments I use. I think the best arguments for God

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Speaker 1: are the metaphysical arguments that take a while to explain

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Speaker 1: and you need some sort of philosophical background to understand them.

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Speaker 1: They're not the kind of argument you can give in

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Speaker 1: a one hour lecture, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Or much less having someone at a college campus with

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Speaker 2: a microphone ask you a thirty second question and you

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Speaker 2: under a time constraint, I have to give them an

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Speaker 2: answer in two minutes. It's so difficult to do. But now,

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Speaker 2: do you think you keep getting the same questions? I mean,

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Speaker 2: maybe there's eight or nine questions you could possibly get

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Speaker 2: and you must.

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Speaker 1: They fall into categories. And on our cross Examined app

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Speaker 1: two words in the app store cross Examined, we have

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Speaker 1: a quick answer section and we point out that there

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Speaker 1: are four questions you need to answer to show the

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Speaker 1: Christianity is true, and there are four objections you're going

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Speaker 1: to get or four categor or of objections. The four

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Speaker 1: questions you need to answer are does truth exist? Does

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Speaker 1: God exist? Are miracles possible? And it's the New Testament

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Speaker 1: telling us the truth about the resurrection. Because if truth exists,

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Speaker 1: if God exists, if miracles are possible, and Jesus rose

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Speaker 1: from the dead, mark it down. Christianity is true. Right,

429
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 1: It's easy to show the Christianity is true if those

430
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: four questions are answered. Yes. Now, the four objections you're

431
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 1: going to get to saying Christianity is true are what

432
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 1: I call the four ease. You're going to get questions

433
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: on ethics. You're going to get questions on eternity, you're

434
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 1: going to get questions on evolution, and you're going to

435
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: get questions on evil. So and some of these are related,

436
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 1: like most of the questions that I get now are

437
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: related somehow to morality and evil. In other words, I

438
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 1: say that the top three objections to Christianity are moral,

439
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: the morality and morality kind of like what your friend

440
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: had that Constantine guy, Right, it's a moral issue.

441
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 2: He wants to talk about slavery when he can't he

442
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: doesn't have a moral ground to stand on.

443
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, he doesn't have the moral standard by

444
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: which to say that slavery is even wrong, but he

445
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: thinks it's wrong, and he has no moral ground if

446
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: there is no God to say that sleeping with your

447
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: girlfriend is right or wrong, because it's not right or wrong,

448
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: because nothing's right or wrong if there's no God. Everything's

449
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: a matter of opinion. So on one hand, he wants

450
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: to say, since there is no God, I get to

451
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: do what I want, but I don't like the Christian God,

452
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: and I think he's immoral for telling me I can't

453
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: do X, Y or Z. Wait. Wait, look, if the

454
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 1: only out these people have, the only possible out they have,

455
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: Granger is to say, Okay, I'm not an atheist anymore.

456
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: I'm a theist. I believe in God. I just think

457
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: the God of the Bible is not the true God.

458
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: That's a fair position to take, because now you have

459
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 1: a moral standard and you can say, well, the God

460
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: of the Bible has done this evil or that evil.

461
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: The problem with that approach is is that it doesn't

462
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: fit with the evidence, because the evidence shows that the

463
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: Christian God is the true God. And if Jesus did

464
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: rise from the dead to prove he was God, and

465
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: he taught the Old Testament was the word of God,

466
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: and he promised the New Testament. Then then the Bible

467
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: is true.

468
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: I love the way you'll bring up the Canaanites and

469
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: this kind of idea because people will go there. God's

470
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 2: not moral. He murdered. God breaks his own law by murdering.

471
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: What do you say to that person?

472
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I asked them, by what moral

473
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: standard are you saying that's wrong? And then I asked them,

474
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: when God kills somebody, does he murder them? I mean,

475
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: it's wrong for us to take innocent life because we're

476
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: not the creator and sustainer of life. We can't resurrect life.

477
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: But it's not wrong for the creator of life to

478
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: take life. He can resurrect it. He owes it right

479
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: and we don't have that capacity. God does. So just

480
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 1: because it's wrong for us doesn't mean it's wrong for God.

481
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: And also point out that whenever God judges somebody in

482
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: the Bible, that's what it is. It's judgment. It's not genocide,

483
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: as they try and say, it's more sinocide. People have

484
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: done evil and they're judged for it. And how do

485
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: I know, Well, God did the same thing to Israelites

486
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: he wiped out three thousand Israelites or worshiping the Golden

487
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: Calf right. So it's not an ethnic issue. It's a

488
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: sin issue. And I also point out that some of

489
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: those commands might be hyperbolic, because that's how ancient Near

490
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 1: Eastern people talk and spoke and wrote. For example, in

491
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: Deuteronomy seven, he basically says, wipe everybody out, and then

492
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: right after that he says, and then don't intermarry with them.

493
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: And you're going, wait a minute, if you wiped everybody out,

494
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 1: how could you intermarry with them? Right? And you see

495
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: over and over again that God says, wipe these people out,

496
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: and then they pop up a few chapters later again

497
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: and you go, wait, I thought they were white. They're

498
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: not right, right. It could be exaggerated language. But my

499
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: point is even if it's not exaggerated, even if it's literal,

500
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,719
Speaker 1: God has the right to take us out anytime he wants.

501
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: And in a world of free creatures, it's gonna be messy, right,

502
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: because God can't force free creatures to do what he

503
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: does it wants him to do. If he does, they're

504
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: not free. So there may be instances where God judges

505
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: people very swiftly, and.

506
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: And that's what a people want, right. The people say,

507
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: if there's a good God out there, why wouldn't he

508
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: stop evil from happening.

509
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 1: Well, whenever people say that, I say, well, if he did,

510
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: he might start with you. Yeah right, yeah, I mean,

511
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: if God were to end evil at midnight tonight, would

512
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: any of us be alive at twelve oh one? You

513
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: know I wouldn't be. No, I wouldn't be alive at

514
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: twelve oh one if he stopped all evil at midnight,

515
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: I mean, if he just took away our free will

516
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: or decided to to judge us.

517
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: And then when he does in the Bible, when he

518
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 2: does judge us, people go, look look at the monster

519
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 2: he is.

520
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. Well. I had this situation a couple

521
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: times on college campuses. One lady at Oklahoma Central University,

522
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: she was up at the microphone and she was just said,

523
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: I can't believe in a god who would kill people

524
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: in the Old Testament. And I had a long conversation

525
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 1: with her. It's on our YouTube channel. But I then

526
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: asked her, I said, well, were you on the abortion issue?

527
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: She said, oh, I'm pro choice. I said, can I

528
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: ask you a question. Why is it that when God

529
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 1: plays God in the Old Testament and decides who lives

530
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: and dies, he's in moral But when you play God

531
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: right here in terms of abortion, that's your moral right.

532
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: You can decide who lives and dies. But that's a

533
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: moral right for you. Why is it not a moral

534
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: right for the creator of life, but you have a

535
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: moral right to do it. That's not your life, you know,

536
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: I mean what you say, well, there's really not much say.

537
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: I mean, she's you know, she's a college kid, right,

538
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: she tried to skate around it.

539
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,640
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540
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562
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571
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Speaker 2: I got to tell you all about this. Have you

572
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Speaker 2: heard about Yegfest. It's happening this year May ninth and

573
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Speaker 2: tenth in Georgetown, Texas at the EEE Farm, So you

574
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Speaker 2: can come hang out with us. Me, my brothers, my

575
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576
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Speaker 2: We've got a mud Bog competition, kind of like we

577
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Speaker 2: did last year, but the new edition this year is

578
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579
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581
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Speaker 2: hope to do a concert for my friends and family,

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583
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Speaker 2: come out have a meal with me and my family

584
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585
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Speaker 2: the Bible, maybe play an acoustic song or two. This

586
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588
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: It's it's people people give themselves moral rights. While they

589
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: they complain that God is doing something. He's taking life

590
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: what they think innocent life, and they think he's wrong,

591
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: but they think they have the right to do so, Yeah,

592
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: the very same thing they're complaining that God has done

593
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: now and when God does it, he's judging people when

594
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: they do it. This is an innocent life that hasn't

595
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: done anything, and it's just inconvenient. You know.

596
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: Has anybody at one of these these q and as

597
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: these conferences have you have you surely you have seen

598
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: someone come up afterward and say, I think I was

599
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: wrong about this. I want to know more. I think

600
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: is there anything I could read about this?

601
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: Oh? Sure, yeah, that happens. In fact, we have some

602
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: people on camera saying that, oh I think that's a

603
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 1: good point. Thanks. I hadn't thought of that, you know,

604
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: most most people, though. I won't say that out loud,

605
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: you know though, But I don't want to try and

606
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: own them, so to speak. I don't want to try

607
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: and make them feel badly about I just want them

608
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: to think. So I'm not I try and be very

609
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: kind to people and just say, hey, okay, I see

610
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: your point, but what about this? And see what they say, right.

611
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: I don't want to have it.

612
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to have a heated argument with them.

613
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: I just I just want them to start thinking about

614
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: certain assumptions they have with their questions because most of

615
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: the time there's always an assumption that you can ask

616
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: them about, Like when they say, well, God is evil,

617
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: what do you mean by evil? Or killing the Canaanites

618
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: is wrong? What do you mean by wrong? You know?

619
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: Why do you think that's wrong? Who said? Because they're

620
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: stealing from God while they're arguing against him, right, they're

621
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: still in a standard from God. In order to say

622
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: God is wrong, they're still in a standard and they're

623
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: misapplying the standards. They exempt themselves from that standard, but

624
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: they think God ought to be held to it. So

625
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: that's what the book Stealing from God is about.

626
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you've you've you've built this idea over time

627
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: that you will claim to them, I don't have enough

628
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: faith to be an atheist. Now they don't. They don't

629
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: like it when you say that. That's like pouring salt

630
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: on a on a snail. You know, they don't like

631
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: that because they'll say, I don't have a faith at all,

632
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: and then they'll say being an atheist is a lack

633
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: of belief at all. But then that, of course that

634
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: goes back into them defending why they want to be

635
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: an atheist and why you're wrong, which truly, if they

636
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: were held consistent, they wouldn't care what you think, Frank,

637
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: they wouldn't care.

638
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it usually come down to why do they

639
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: do what they do if there is no God? Why

640
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: do you spend all your time fighting him? Like they

641
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: don't believe in lepre cons and unicorns, but nobody writes

642
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: the leprechaun delusion, right, because there's something about God that

643
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: they think the God believers are somehow going to take

644
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: their rights away politically, then normally that's really really the

645
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: road that gets them all riled up. Well, you God believers,

646
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: you want to impose your view on the rest of us,

647
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,479
Speaker 1: and that's wrong. So I'm going to come out and

648
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: hammer you for believing in God, just like your friend

649
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: you know, I want to sleep with his girlfriend. Okay, yeah,

650
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: I get it. Why don't you just tell me that

651
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: a year and a half ago could have saved us

652
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: a lot of time? Right, let's just go. And that's

653
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: why I usually start with the question, after a short discussion,

654
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? Or

655
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: you could say, if Jesus really rose from the dead

656
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: to prove me he was God, would you follow him,

657
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: you know, and see what they say. Most people are

658
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: looking for God like a criminal's looking for a cop. Right.

659
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: They're running. They're on the run. They don't want God

660
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: to exist. In fact, maybe we could do a little

661
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: thought experiment with your audience. For those watching right now,

662
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: I want you to think of someone you know who's

663
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: not a Christian whom you'd like to be a Christian,

664
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: A friend, relative, somebody like that. All right, think of them,

665
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: got that person? Okay, good? Now here's my question. Is

666
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: the person you're thinking of on a relentless pursuit of truth.

667
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: They want to know if Christianity is true or are

668
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: they apathetic or maybe even hostile to Christianity. Now, ninety

669
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: nine times out of ten is my friend from Mississippi

670
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: says it's their their apathetic or hostile. It's it's really

671
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,479
Speaker 1: it's it's it's either one hundred zero or it's ninety

672
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: nine to one. Very few people when I do that

673
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: survey raise their hand and say, oh yeah, they're on

674
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: a relentless pursuit of truth. Most people are apathetic or hostile.

675
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: They don't want it to be true.

676
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: So true, that's exactly right. You meet an atheist and

677
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: there you want to tell them, you know, you strike

678
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: me as someone that would be a little bit more

679
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 2: open minded, and they say, I am. I am wildly

680
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: open minded than you're agnostic. Well maybe maybe I'm agnostic.

681
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: Are you constantly seeking truth? Then no, no, I'm stuck

682
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 2: in my agnosticism. Well that doesn't seem like you either.

683
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 2: You seem like you would be a more open minded agnostic.

684
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 2: Well maybe maybe I am. Then would you like to

685
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 2: hear more about the evidence of Christianity? No, I don't.

686
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

687
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: But this is the layer they're not. They're not open

688
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: minded at all, which is why Milton Burrow, the old comedian,

689
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: used to say, we found out this one guy in

690
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: our neighborhood was an agnostic, so we burned a question

691
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: mark on.

692
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 2: So what do you say to someone that that that

693
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: they listen to this and they think I'm not doctor

694
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: Frank Turk, I'm not that smart. I can't defend the

695
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: faith because I think the the number one hindrance of

696
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: being an apologist is fear. Really, I don't want to

697
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: sound stupid. I don't want to end up in a

698
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: conversation where I don't know what to say. I'm sure,

699
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: you've talked about this with people.

700
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, you don't have to know what to say.

701
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: You just have to know how to ask questions. Asking

702
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: questions is easy, Answering them is hard. That's why my

703
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: friend Greg Coco wrote the book Tactics.

704
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: Great book.

705
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, how to ask questions? You know, what

706
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: do you mean by that? How'd you come to that conclusion?

707
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: Why do you think that's true? What evidence do you

708
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: have for that position? You know, questions like that. So

709
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: once again, because when somebody says something, it's not your

710
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: job to refute what they say. It's their job to

711
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: support what they say. So start asking questions. Why do

712
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: you think atheism is true? Why do you think there's

713
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: no evidence for God? Or why do you think that

714
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: there's not enough evidence for God? Like the question you

715
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: were asking the guy, like what evidence would you need

716
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: to see? Right? Why do you think there's evidence for anything?

717
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: Why can your mind ascertain truth about the real world

718
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: outside of your skull? Why does that even happen, not

719
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: just about God but about anything. Why do you know

720
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: if you put two parts hydrogen one part oxygen, you

721
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 1: get together, you'll get water. Why do you know that? Right?

722
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: Why if you drop a ball off a building, It's

723
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: going to go to the ground. Why do you know that?

724
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: Why do you know anything? Yeah, So you just start

725
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: asking questions like that and see what they say. Do

726
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: you believe every effect has a cause? If they say no,

727
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: they're not being very scientific, because that's the basis of science,

728
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: that every effect has a cause. The next question is

729
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: after they say, yeah, I believe very effect has a cost. Well,

730
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: the universe is an effect. Where did it come from?

731
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: What caused it? Right? Why is it so fine tuned?

732
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: Why is it so designed? Why do you have a

733
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: law pressing on you that says you ought not murder people,

734
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 1: you ought to love them? Where does that come from?

735
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: Is that objective or is it just someone's opinion? Right?

736
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: That's a deep rabbit hole and a good one.

737
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, if there's no God,

738
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: there's nothing ultimately right or wrong. So just ask a

739
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: lot of questions. And you know, when people ask me

740
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 1: how do I know that God exists? I just say

741
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: I know God by his effects. Right. If there's a creation,

742
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: that's the effect I'm reasoning back to a cause a creator.

743
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: If there's design, that's the effect, I'm reasoning back to

744
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: a cause, a designer. There's a moral law written on

745
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: the heart, that's the effect. I'm reasoning back to a cause,

746
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: a moral lawgiver. If there is evidence a man predicted

747
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: and accomplished his own resurrection from the dead, that's the effect.

748
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: I'm reasoning back to a cause. Who could have caused

749
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: the man to predict and accomplish his own resurrection from

750
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: the dead, The creator of life, someone like God. In fact,

751
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: we do that when we even if we think we

752
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: have some sort of personal relationship with God. You know,

753
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: if we think that God has told us something, or

754
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: that God has answered prayer, we're doing the same thing.

755
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: We're taking the effect, say the answered prayer, and we're

756
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: reasoning back to a cause. We're saying the cause of

757
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: that prayer answered prayer was God. You're always reasoning from

758
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: effect to cause. And with atheists, their main problem is

759
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: they have no cause. Right, there's no cause for any

760
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: of this. There's no cause for the for the four

761
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: natural forces that govern the universe. There's no cause for

762
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: the universe. There's no cause for the design of the universe.

763
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: There's no cause for life. There's no cause for the

764
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: design of new life. Forms, there's no cause for the

765
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: laws of logic and the laws of mathematics and the

766
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: laws of morality, and there's no cause.

767
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 2: And to that they typically say, to that, they say,

768
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: I'm not saying there is a cause or not a cause.

769
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: I'm saying I don't know, and you can't know. That's

770
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 2: typically what that's how they'll make that.

771
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: Well, if they say you can't know, I'd say, why

772
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: can't you know? Why do you say that? And how

773
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: do you know that you can't know? How do you

774
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: know that you can't know? Because you know that, right?

775
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's it's a self defeating position

776
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: to say I can't know anything because you you apparently

777
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: know you can't know, right. That's incredible. Yeah, So it

778
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: turns out to be a self defeating cul de sac

779
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: that they back themselves into. And just about all of

780
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: the natural philosophers that have come along trying to disprove God,

781
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: whether it's Hume or Kant, who was a believer, by

782
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: the way, but he said you can't know the real world.

783
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 1: That's how you remember k can't know the real world.

784
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

785
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: Well, when he says that, you want to ask him, well,

786
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: how do you know the real world is there. Then

787
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 1: if you can't know it, right, you know, the world

788
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: is there, So you can't know the real world. Now,

789
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: you can't know the real world.

790
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: You can, yeah, you can.

791
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: You can't know the real world. So these are self

792
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: defeating philosophical positions. And just by pointing that out, you

793
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: can show that at the very foundation of their belief

794
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: system there's a there's a fault, a fatal flaw.

795
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: So you engaged many times with Christopher Hitchins a couple

796
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: of times, couple of debates, couple couple of debates. What

797
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: was the talk off camera between you two? Were you

798
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: guys friends?

799
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, I mean, you know, it was fine. We

800
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: didn't socialize, but you know, you arrive at the debate

801
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: and it was funny. Christopher was a funny guy. Actually,

802
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: first time, the first debate we had was at university

803
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: was at It was at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond

804
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: back in eight and he was debating Christians around the country.

805
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: He had written the book you Know God is not

806
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: Great at Religion Poisons Everything. And I saw him on

807
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: TV a lot because he was also a political commentator,

808
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: and a lot of the politics he he talked about

809
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: I agreed with. I mean, Christopher was very straightforward on

810
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: the danger of Islam, and he didn't pull any punches there. Yeah,

811
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: and so I appreciated his candor there. And when I

812
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: first met him, I said, hey, Christopher, you know, this

813
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: is my first debate debating anyone other than my wife.

814
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: So I don't I don't fear you, but you know,

815
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: but I said, you know, I'm kind of a fan.

816
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: I kind of I kind of you know, like a

817
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: lot of the things you say. And he kind of

818
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,479
Speaker 1: peered over his glasses and he said, the night is young.

819
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: And then before the second debate, we got talking about

820
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: a couple of things, and I mean, just small talk,

821
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, nothing. But everyone liked Christopher. Whether you agree

822
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: with him or not, you liked him. He was he

823
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: was a he had a great way with words. He

824
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: was a he was a journalist, you know, he was

825
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: a literary guy. Loved poetry, that kind of thing. And

826
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: but I think he was just mad at God. That's

827
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: why I ended both debates by saying, you know, Christopher

828
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: Hitchins says there is no God, and I hate him. Yeah,

829
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: but there is a God and he loves Christopher Hitchins.

830
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: So but yeah, we had. If you watch a debate

831
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: with Christopher Hitchins, you'll go, I like this guy, you know,

832
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: but if you read the transcript, you're going to go,

833
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: what is this guy talking about? He's not even in

834
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: the ballpark of the of the topic. He's skating or

835
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,959
Speaker 1: all around it. In our first debate, I went first,

836
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: and I got up and I talked about, you know,

837
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: three arguments for the existence of God, the cosmological, teleological,

838
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: and moral arguments. And Christopher got up and started talking

839
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: about what a bad person Mother Teresa was, And I'm going,

840
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: what does this have to do with whether or not

841
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: God exists? Whether Mother Teresa was good or bad is

842
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: irrelevant to this question, you know. But he was so

843
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: good rhetorically that, you know, you just kind of get

844
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: mesmerized by him. But he was not technically a good

845
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: debater because he was not really dealing with the issues.

846
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 2: No, he was never really listening to you. He was

847
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 2: just kind of always assuming. It was like he was

848
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: kind of blacking out, and then assuming that you said

849
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 2: something and he would get up and he was, like

850
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: you said, he was brilliant, and so he could just

851
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: kind of talk his way around anything. But never really

852
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 2: answering any of the propositions that you put forth. And

853
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: if anyone wants to see those, those are very famous debates.

854
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 2: You just look on YouTube.

855
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're on our YouTube channel, across on YouTube channel.

856
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: They're on Cross Examine. Yeah, fascinating stuff. And he passed away.

857
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, he passed away in twenty eleven. Yeah, a long

858
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: time ago. Now it's almost what fourteen years ago, thirteen

859
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, and he had esophageo cancer. He was

860
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: a big smoker and drinker.

861
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 2: And why not if nothing else matters.

862
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: There's no God, Yeah, there's no God. Yeah. It was tragic.

863
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: He was such a sharp guy.

864
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: So to the to the people that would question the

865
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: problem of evil, I know, there's so many places I

866
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: can go with this, Frank So I think problem the

867
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: problem of evil is one of the main points that

868
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 2: people want to go to. I also think proof of

869
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 2: the Bible, which which I think in twenty twenty five,

870
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 2: what an incredible time to be alive and to be

871
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 2: a Christian. We have we have an advantage over all

872
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: the brothers and sisters you know, before us for the

873
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: last few millennia that didn't have the evidence, the archaeological

874
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: evidence that didn't have the translation ability that we do now.

875
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 2: And so I think those two things. You probably get

876
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: those a lot in college campuses, like how could you

877
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 2: possibly trust the Bible written by these men changed by

878
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: Constantine for his game.

879
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd be surprised how how infrequently that comes up?

880
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 2: Really?

881
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, As I say, most of the objections have to

882
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: do with morality. You know, they're not interested that much

883
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: in the text anymore. They just want to do what

884
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: they want to do.

885
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 2: Maybe because the text is so obvious now maybe.

886
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I don't know. The figure of Jesus is

887
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: an enormously attractive character for obvious reasons. There's nobody been anyone,

888
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: There's never been anyone like Jesus in history. And everybody

889
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: noticed that. Everybody wants to have Jesus on their side,

890
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: so much so that they'll take him out of context

891
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: and ignore other things he said in order to get

892
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: done what they want done, or to get him on

893
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: their side to support a particular position. Even world religions

894
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: will change around Jesus. Everyone wants to import Jesus into

895
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: their world religion. You know the Muslims. Did you know

896
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: the Muslim You read the Koran Jesus is sinless, Jesus

897
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: is you know, a prophet, he's a miracle worker, all

898
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: these things, but they don't think he's God, but they

899
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: want to have him in their system. But most of

900
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: the objections that come up have to do with, you know,

901
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 1: the Canaanite issue, the four ease I mentioned earlier, evolution, ethics, evil,

902
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: and eternity. And ethics and evil can be related because

903
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: they deal with right and wrong. Eternity are questions and

904
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: they that can even delve into the ethics too. Eternity

905
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: you know what about those that have never heard that's

906
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: actually an ethical or moral question. Yeah, saying that God

907
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: is somehow immral if he doesn't get his gospel to

908
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: everybody so everyone has a chance, that kind of thing,

909
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: you know, Or why did God create people he knew

910
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: would go to hell? Or why is Jesus the only

911
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 1: way right? These are eternity questions. Evolution questions, that's obvious.

912
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: You know what about evolution? What does that does that

913
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: contradict the Bible? Is it true? Not true? That kind

914
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,439
Speaker 1: of thing? Questions on evil. If there's a good God,

915
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: what does he allow evil to occur? And then questions

916
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: on ethics. You know, slavery in the Bible, that's some

917
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: ethical question. What about LGBTQ issues that comes up, right, Canaanites.

918
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: We mentioned that. So ninety percent of the objections, maybe

919
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: more than ninety percent, are going to be in one

920
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: of those four categories.

921
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: And you're saying that people will typically pull Jesus out

922
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 2: of this and say all he said is good. You know,

923
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 2: take the red letters, which is why I don't actually

924
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 2: agree with red letter Bible. But they'll say, take take

925
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: this and look look what he said, Look what Jesus.

926
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: I will listen to what Jesus said. And then I

927
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:11,240
Speaker 2: saw you make a brilliant argument for the Jesus's beautiful

928
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: sermon on the road to Amaas, the seven mile journey

929
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: to Amaeas, when he said all of this was about me,

930
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: and you laid out this beautiful exposition of what do

931
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: you think Jesus talked about on this seven mile journey

932
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: to Amaeas after the resurrection? Because the whole Bible is

933
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: pointing to him and he said talking about him fulfilling,

934
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: He fulfilled what it says. And so you can't say

935
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,919
Speaker 2: I just listened to what Jesus said. I don't listen

936
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: to this stuff of the Canaanite stuff and all the

937
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: monster in the Old Testament. You can't say.

938
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: That firm the entire Old Testament. By the way, Jesus

939
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: talked more about Hell than anybody else. He talked more

940
00:48:53,640 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: about Hell than Heaven. He famously said, Uh, don't fear

941
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: the one who can kill the body, but can kill

942
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: the body and the soul in Hell. Right, And what

943
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: profit will it be for a man if he gains

944
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 1: the whole world that loses his soul. You know, he

945
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: talks about beating people with few blows or many blows.

946
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: That's a reference to Hell and the punishment that they

947
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: will experience. And he talks about those who haven't accepted

948
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: the sun are condemned already, right, I mean, why why

949
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: did Jesus come to save us from the wrath that

950
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: we're due, the wrath of God that we're due. That's

951
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: why he came. The son of Man did not come

952
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: to be served, but to serve and to give his

953
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: life as a ransom for many. That's why all of

954
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 1: these commercials, I know, they're all well intended, but they

955
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: missed the mark completely. All that he gets us commercials. Yep, yes,

956
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: it has nothing to do with Jesus's mission or very little.

957
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 1: Jesus didn't come for social justice. Jesus came for eternal justice.

958
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: An eternal justice says that we're all sinners, we all

959
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: need a savior, and I'm the ransom. I came to

960
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: put my life down so your life wouldn't be punished.

961
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: I came to save you. I didn't come to give

962
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: you a new ethic. I didn't come to give you

963
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: a you know, a new series of laws that you're

964
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: going to impose on the rest of people through some

965
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 1: sort of political process. I mean, that might be part

966
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: of Christianity, but that's not why I came, right, Absolutely.

967
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 1: I came as the sacrifice. I came as the lamb.

968
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: I came to take your sins from you and then

969
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: give you my righteousness. That's incredible. That's the God's right. Yeah, Yeah,

970
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 1: that's what it's all about. It's not social justice. It's

971
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,439
Speaker 1: not take care of the poor. Yeah, Jesus said take

972
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: care of the poor. But that's not the focus of

973
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: his ministry. That's a result of why he came. Yes,

974
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: that's not the that's not the the that's not the

975
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: goal of his ministry. That might just be the result

976
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: of people that have accepted Jesus. They go, you know,

977
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: we ought to take care of the poor. You know,

978
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: we ought to we ought to take care of the widow.

979
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: This is what true religion is, right, we ought to

980
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: take care of the downtrod and we ought to do that. Yeah,

981
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: let's do that because we're saved, not to get saved.

982
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: That's so good. And you could add in their practice

983
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 2: apologetics because we're saved.

984
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:29,919
Speaker 1: That's right, because how.

985
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 2: Could we not how could we not tell everyone about this?

986
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And yeah, we should be.

987
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: To the point of, you know, the Costy conversation. I

988
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: learned so much from that. He might not have. But

989
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 2: that's kind of besides the point. I hope that there's

990
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 2: a seed that's planted in that that German guy wherever

991
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 2: he is today, maybe listening to this. But but my

992
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 2: point is that people, all of us listening, as Christians,

993
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: we should engage in these conversations. I think you laid

994
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 2: out a great way to do it by just asking questions.

995
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: You could ask questions and and it's okay also to

996
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: say you know what, I don't know that, but give me,

997
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 2: give me tonight and let's talk about this tomorrow, I'm

998
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna look at some stuff. And that's okay too.

999
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: But the more we engage that, the more we want

1000
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 2: to practice apologetics naturally, the better we're going to get.

1001
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's going to get as good as

1002
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 2: you though.

1003
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, there's uh, there's a lot of great

1004
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: people out there who are presenting the the evidence for Christianity.

1005
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: I think quite well. You probably saw Wes Huff on

1006
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: Rogan's thing. If you see that, he did great, Yeah

1007
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: I did. Yeah, Yeah, Wes is young, he's good. His

1008
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: colleague Andy Steiger was with him on some recent shows.

1009
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:43,879
Speaker 1: I just said Andy on the podcast too. You got

1010
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,760
Speaker 1: Jay Warner, Wallace, Greg Kochel. Of course, John Lennox, nobody

1011
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: better than John Lennox. Of course John is an older

1012
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: man now, but you just watched. If everyone acted like

1013
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: John Lennox, the whole world would be Christianized because you

1014
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: can't not love John Lennox.

1015
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 2: So yeah.

1016
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: There By the way, Lennox gives a great illustration about

1017
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: Christianity when he says, when I first met my wife Sally,

1018
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: I mean, he's this is hypothetical, this is not how

1019
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 1: it went. But he said, when I first met my wife, Sally,

1020
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: I gave her a cookbook, and I said, if you

1021
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: can cook well for the next forty years, i'll see

1022
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: about loving you. Right and and well, he said, well,

1023
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: if I had done that, she'd have rightfully thrown that

1024
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,919
Speaker 1: cookbook in my face. Right. But why do we treat

1025
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 1: God this way? Why do we think that God has

1026
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 1: given us this cookbook called the Bible, and if we

1027
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: obey it well enough, at the end of our life,

1028
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: if we've done it well enough, he's going to love us. Now,

1029
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: that's not the way it works. God loves us already.

1030
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: God came into this space time continuum and took our

1031
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: sin upon himself, and he loves us already. We'll obey

1032
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: the cookbook that he gives us out of love for

1033
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: what he's done, not as a way of earning his

1034
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: lover his favor. He already does love us, and so

1035
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: he gives us wisdom through this series of books we

1036
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 1: now call the Bible to help us live a life

1037
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,240
Speaker 1: and become more like Christ, than to bring other people

1038
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: into the kingdom. We're here to know God and to

1039
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 1: make him known. But it's not to earn anything with God.

1040
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: It is when we follow his commands. You know, he said,

1041
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 1: if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. When we

1042
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: follow his commands, it's a result of the fact that

1043
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: he loves us.

1044
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: That's right.

1045
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: It's not to get him to love us. He already

1046
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: does love us. That's why he came to earth.

1047
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: That's right. And then we hear Peter after that, who says,

1048
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 2: always be ready to make a defense, which is where

1049
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 2: we get that world apologia. That's where we get that

1050
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: root word, always be ready to make a defense for

1051
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 2: the hope that is in you. Yeah, do it with

1052
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 2: gentleness and respect, which I think you also.

1053
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to do because they're from New Jersey.

1054
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: Forget about it. You do.

1055
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: You have yelled a few times, and I think if

1056
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: your wife's there, she must be thinking he's in there

1057
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: doing a podcast because he's yelling again.

1058
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, I yell on podcasts. I don't know

1059
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 1: hell to other people.

1060
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 2: But let me ask you one more thing. You're in

1061
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 2: good shape, man. What are you eating? What are you doing?

1062
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: I'm sixty three, but I don't look a day over

1063
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: sixty two. In fact, when I turned fifty, my wife said, honey,

1064
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: you're going to live to be one hundred. I said,

1065
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: how do you know? She said, because you look half

1066
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 1: dead already. Thanks.

1067
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 2: You tuck that shirt in every time you're at a

1068
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 2: college campus or doing you tuck that shirt in. It's

1069
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 2: like washboard abs.

1070
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: Well, I'm a runner. I've always been a runner. Well,

1071
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: I can't run as much anymore, just because I ran today.

1072
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: But I only run like once a week now because

1073
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 1: I got to kill these tendon itis. You know, you

1074
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: get old, everything breaks down.

1075
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 2: Is that the old naval aviator in you that still runs?

1076
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, I before I was in the navy, I

1077
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: was a runner because I was just a skinny kid

1078
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: and that was the best thing I could do athletically

1079
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: was run. So and then I have something called tonal,

1080
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: which is a workout thing you put on your wall. Okay,

1081
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: I like, use what about you? You're in shape? What

1082
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 1: do you do?

1083
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 2: Uh? Try to eat right as good as I can.

1084
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 2: I try to do strength training. I'm actually not a runner,

1085
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 2: but I will do some kind of cardio in the

1086
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 2: gym and do strength training.

1087
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,359
Speaker 1: And I think strength training like what do you do?

1088
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: I do isolated muscle groups each day, like Monday's chest day.

1089
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 2: Tuesday is back day.

1090
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: Like already in a gym, like a plan of fitness

1091
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: kind of thing or what I.

1092
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 2: Have for a lot of years. But I have a

1093
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: little something that my wife and I made out in

1094
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 2: the garage.

1095
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: No, that's good. So, yeah, that's what you want. I

1096
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: don't want to have to travel anywhere. Ours is in

1097
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: the house too. Yeah, it's a lot quicker. Yeah.

1098
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 2: So when you have an event, speaking of being ready,

1099
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: I think that you know, being healthy and trying to

1100
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 2: eat right and like you said, running, I think that

1101
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 2: all affects the way that you you defend the faith.

1102
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 2: So whenever you have an event, say it's a debate

1103
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 2: or or you're doing a Q and A, are you

1104
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 2: thinking about are you drinking coffee before? Or you think

1105
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 2: are you trying to get rest? I mean, is there

1106
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 2: anything that goes through your mind? You do it so well?

1107
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: Well, I haven't. I didn't. I don't drink coffee. I

1108
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: didn't drink coffee before, you know, and since I've been saved,

1109
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: I didn't drink it before I was saved either, So

1110
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't be in the same thing doesn't matter. I

1111
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: just want to sound more spiritual than you. That's all.

1112
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: Not a coffee guy, I do like iced tea, but unsweet.

1113
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: But no. I mean, look, when you're you know this

1114
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: probably better than I do. When you're doing some kind

1115
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: of gig, you're not tired. The adrenaline is going, right,

1116
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: You're not Yeah, you don't get up there and do

1117
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: a set and I don't really want to do this.

1118
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: I'm kind of tired, right, I mean, you're you're you're

1119
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: probably feeding off the audience, aren't you.

1120
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 2: Sure? But have you thought have you been on there

1121
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: before and just thought I am not as sharp as

1122
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 2: I normally?

1123
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, that happens. Sure, that happens, especially during the

1124
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: Q and A because I've already been up like we

1125
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: just did one outside the University of Nebraska last week

1126
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: and it the presentation was an hour and forty minutes

1127
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: and then there was an hour forty minutes of questions.

1128
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 1: By the time that you know, it's three hours and

1129
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: twenty minutes, and I'm like, okay, I'm getting tired. Oh

1130
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: that happens. But thankfully, I've tried to stay in shape

1131
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: most you know, my life, and thankfully I haven't gotten

1132
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: any major injury in order to do that. And I

1133
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: think generally if you're carrying extra weight around that's going

1134
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: to that's just going to bog you down. It's just

1135
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: not You're not going to be able to be as

1136
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 1: sharp as you could be. Sure though, thankfully I haven't

1137
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: had the problem with that. I have a high metabolism,

1138
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: so I know maybe it may. Other people have a

1139
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: slower metabolism, it's harder for them to keep the weight off.

1140
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 1: I just haven't had that problem. But I do work out,

1141
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: so I don't know if that's going to change. Hopefully

1142
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 1: it won't. Hopefully I'll be able to maintain not getting heavy. Unfortunately,

1143
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 1: America's head. Make America healthy again. RFK.

1144
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: We need, we need you. He's right, we need you, Frank,

1145
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 2: we need we need some more books from you. You know,

1146
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 2: we need you to keep cranking that out for us.

1147
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,959
Speaker 1: Uh, I'm working. I'm working on a couple right now.

1148
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 2: What do you work what's the thing you're working on?

1149
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: Well, there's a book that, uh, colleague of mine, is

1150
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: what we're working on, called The War on Reality, and

1151
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 1: it's you know, all the crazy stuff that people try

1152
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: and say is true and right when it really isn't

1153
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 1: so very much needed right now, Yes, So we're working

1154
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: on that and we're working on an updates to some

1155
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: other stuff, so okay, but a lot of the time

1156
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: is spent traveling and you know, doing the video work

1157
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 1: on college campuses.

1158
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 2: So which for everybody it's cross examined on YouTube. Uh,

1159
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,439
Speaker 2: excellent stuff. Brother, it's such an honor having you on here.

1160
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you Granger. It's an honor to be on.

1161
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 1: So thanks for having me. And uh, I appreciate the

1162
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: work you're doing now man. And and you know, you

1163
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: had a great career in the music world and now

1164
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 1: you're having a great career in ministry. So you're doing both.

1165
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: By the way, I think you can do both at

1166
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: the same time, right you can. You can be in

1167
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: ministry and in music.

1168
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 2: You certainly can, you seeah speaking you know, hypothetically certainly.

1169
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 2: As far as me personally, we'll see, we'll see. As

1170
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 2: if the Lord H gives me a way back into

1171
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 2: music somehow through worship or you know, that'd be amazing.

1172
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1173
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 2: Well, right now, I'm just trying to make more Him

1174
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 2: and less of me.

1175
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. No, it's good whether

1176
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: you're in music or not, because look, there's we actually

1177
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: need more apologists maybe ought to become an apologist. We've

1178
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:44,439
Speaker 1: got a lot of music artists out there. We don't

1179
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: have enough people going to college campus. As I can

1180
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:46,919
Speaker 1: tell you that.

1181
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 2: You know, when I first started seminary, I first started

1182
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 2: going after an apologetic degree before I changed to m DIF.

1183
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 2: But but I agree, and I think everyone should at

1184
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:02,439
Speaker 2: least study And you know, you could study apologetics by

1185
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 2: watching you. That is a way that anyone listening right now,

1186
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 2: how do I get into apologetics? Go watch Frank Turik.

1187
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 2: Go go to YouTube and watch how you interact and

1188
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 2: how you answered. I don't think there's a question that

1189
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 2: anyone has asked that that someone else watching wouldn't get

1190
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 2: the same question. It would be very common.

1191
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the questions today, they're they're all that, they're all

1192
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: around morality. Most of them are anyway. So yeah, you're right.

1193
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 1: So it's not like you have to know a whole

1194
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: ton in order to answer them. And as you said earlier,

1195
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: the real challenge is not h are these questions hard?

1196
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: The hard thing is answering them in two minutes, which

1197
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: you can't do completely. All you can do is kind

1198
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 1: of cover one point briefly and say I recommend you

1199
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 1: go read this book or you. You know, you look

1200
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: at this or that or I'm just giving you a

1201
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 1: doorway to an answer, not a complete answer. Yes, that's

1202
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: that's the harder thing.

1203
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 2: You ever have any death threats?

1204
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: Uh, that's a good question. Probably on the internet. But

1205
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take those seriously, you know, you know, not

1206
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: not not recently. I'm trying to think if back, if

1207
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: we have, I kind of just brush them off. If

1208
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: someone wants to kill you, they're not going to tell you, right.

1209
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: I remember one time backstage I was with I was

1210
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: with I was with Hitchens because he was coming out

1211
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: against the Muslims pretty strong, and I said, you ever

1212
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: get death threats? He goes, Look, if if someone wants

1213
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: to kill me, they're not going to tell me.

1214
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 2: It's something good we could learn from Christopher. Yeah.

1215
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: You just keep moving forward, you know. Yeah?

1216
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 2: Well, brother, thank you so much.

1217
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 1: Man.

1218
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 2: I appreciate you taking the time. It means it means

1219
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 2: the world to me.

1220
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Granger. Thanks for the work you're doing.

1221
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: We'll do this again some point.

1222
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 2: I hope sounds great. I hope. So thanks for joining

1223
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 2: me on the Grangersmith podcast. Asked I appreciate all of

1224
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 2: you guys. You could help me out by rating this

1225
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 2: podcast on iTunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe to this channel,

1226
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 2: hit that little like button and notification spell so that

1227
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 2: you never miss anytime I upload a video.

1228
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: Yii