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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff.

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Speaker 1: I never told your production of I Hiart Radio's House

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Speaker 1: Stuff works. For today's classic, we wanted to spotlight another

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Speaker 1: podcast that we think you might enjoy, called Modern Rules,

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Speaker 1: and that's Rules as an r U h L E.

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Speaker 1: S As in Stephanie Rules, UM, who has done a

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Speaker 1: lot of work outside of MSNBC, but you've probably seen

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Speaker 1: her on MSNBC. UM. She talks about all kinds of

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Speaker 1: things that we we talk about on this show, like feminism,

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Speaker 1: big one, masculinity, privilege, political correctness, the me too movement, UM,

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Speaker 1: social media, and faith and moral leadership. So if you're

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Speaker 1: interested in checking that out, please do UM. And for

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Speaker 1: this our classic episode, something that kind of ties into

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Speaker 1: that uh and is also pretty important right now. It's

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Speaker 1: very timely, is awhere are the women in political campaigns?

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Speaker 1: And uh, I feel like we're we're working on something

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Speaker 1: around this as well about women in politics in general

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Speaker 1: and what that looks like today. And so keep your

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Speaker 1: ear out for that one. Yeah, keep your your handcuffed

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Speaker 1: to your ear. And when you hear the notification like

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Speaker 1: a and then it's not that one, but it will

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Speaker 1: be eventually I'm sorry. I'm building a whole story in

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Speaker 1: my head. Um, But in the meantime, we hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoy this classic episode. Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told

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Speaker 1: You from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline And this

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Speaker 1: week could be considered a House of Cards week on

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Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You. Today we're talking about campaign strategists. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because typically when you hear from a campaign strategist or

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Speaker 1: about one, it's usually a dude. Yeah, and so why

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Speaker 1: is that? Why is that? Um? And speaking of House

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Speaker 1: of Cards, before we get into women in political campaigning

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Speaker 1: and strategy, can we just take a moment to talk

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Speaker 1: about uh, Corey Lewandowski, who to me is Doug Stamper

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Speaker 1: on House of Cards. I R L will tell the

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Speaker 1: people who he is, Okay, So besides being a real

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Speaker 1: life Doug, he is a real life Doug. People who

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Speaker 1: have not seen House of Cards are just so confused

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Speaker 1: right now. Um. So, Uh, Corey Lewandowski is Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: campaign manager and he's been extremely visible throughout the whole campaign. Um.

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Speaker 1: I would say that he's been the most visible campaign

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Speaker 1: manager partially because he was charged with simple battery of

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Speaker 1: former Bright Bart reporter Michelle Fields. Um. The charges have

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Speaker 1: since been dropped. But he is what you would expect

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's campaign manager to be. I mean, he's opinionated,

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Speaker 1: he's pretty, let's say, rough and tumble. I like, how

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Speaker 1: diplomatic you're being. Well, this is all about campaign strategy

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Speaker 1: and spin. So Carolina trying to like really just get

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Speaker 1: into the spirit of it. Yeah, but didn't he like

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Speaker 1: he pushed her, right, Yeah. I watched the security footage

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Speaker 1: you can see it online, and he grabs her and

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Speaker 1: pulls her away. I mean it's kind of hard to

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Speaker 1: see what exactly went down, but um, yeah it was.

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Speaker 1: I mean just just the very idea of that happening

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Speaker 1: seemed just I'm a stranger than fiction. Although we can't

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Speaker 1: like this political season, we should just expect stuff like

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Speaker 1: that to be happening, you know. I Mean it's almost

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Speaker 1: like on like low on the list of bizarro things

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Speaker 1: that have happened so far. I know, just the the

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Speaker 1: day before we came into the studio to record this podcast,

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Speaker 1: Baynard referred to Ted Cruise as Lucifer in the flesh,

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Speaker 1: like things are just so weird politically like things are

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Speaker 1: so weird, and instead of focusing on the people out

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Speaker 1: front like Ted Cruz, Carlie Furina, Donald Trump, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: we wanted to pull back the curtain and look at

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Speaker 1: the political machinery because obviously, with all the money but

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Speaker 1: now goes into political campaigning, there's so much background work

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Speaker 1: to hone messages and optics and events, and you have

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Speaker 1: when you look at the gender breakdown of who does

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Speaker 1: what behind the scenes of political campaigns, you have um

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Speaker 1: a little pocket where women are are um welcomed, and

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Speaker 1: then the rest of it. It's pretty tough for a lady.

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Speaker 1: It can be pretty tough for a lady to branch

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Speaker 1: out in in the strategy realm. But first I wanted

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Speaker 1: to take a look at people behind the scenes in general,

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Speaker 1: so campaigns staffers, because I'm sure a lot of you

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Speaker 1: saw that big Jezebel piece that was looking at how

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Speaker 1: men and women in campaign staffs are paid and how

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Speaker 1: many are employed, and overall the numbers are pretty pretty bad.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, this again is coming from Jezebel, and the

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Speaker 1: the campaign with the highest paid discrepancy between men and

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Speaker 1: women was Ted Cruz. Uh. Male employees make an average

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Speaker 1: of twenty more than female employ ways in that campaign.

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Speaker 1: The now defunct Rubio campaign actually paid women the best.

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Speaker 1: They made on average just more than five thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: more than male staffers. And of ten of the ten

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Speaker 1: highest paid staffers on the sadly defunct Rubio campaign, which

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Speaker 1: a lot of people BT dubs in the primaries are

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Speaker 1: still voting for Rubio over Casic. For instance, UM six

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Speaker 1: for female. Six out of ten on the Rubio highest

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Speaker 1: paid staffer list were female. Not so for Bernie. He

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Speaker 1: is literally the only candidate who has no women in

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Speaker 1: his top ten highest paid employees. But he has paid

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Speaker 1: the women in his campaign equitably. In fact, on average

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Speaker 1: they're making a little under one thousand dollars more than

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Speaker 1: the men. And then if we look at Hillary Clinton,

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Speaker 1: men and women were making essentially the same amount, and

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Speaker 1: of her ten highest paid staffers, uh, sixer dudes for

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Speaker 1: our ladies, um, one of them being Whoma Aberdeen, who's

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest names really in political campaigning period.

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Speaker 1: She's Hillary's chief of staff and her campaign's vice chairwoman. Um.

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Speaker 1: And she also was on Call your girlfriend not that

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Speaker 1: long ago, which was uh interesting to hear. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like I'd never She's been featured in a number of magazines,

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Speaker 1: um in profiles and obviously his gotten a lot of

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Speaker 1: attention because her husband is Anthony Weener. Um. But it

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Speaker 1: was it was nice to hear whom I have just

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Speaker 1: kind of off the cuff conversation as off the cuff

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Speaker 1: as a chief of staff can be. Yeah. And I

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Speaker 1: love knowing that she started working for Hillary as an

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Speaker 1: intern at the White House in so she's been with

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Speaker 1: her a long time. Um. And if you look at Trump,

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Speaker 1: out of his ten highest paid staff members, seven or

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Speaker 1: men and three or women. Uh. And women on average

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Speaker 1: make three thousand dollars less than men their male counter.

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Speaker 1: It's for the Trump campaign and John Kasik is actually

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Speaker 1: the only candidate who has a female campaign manager. Her

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Speaker 1: name's Beth Hanson. And actually Mike Huckabee two did too,

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Speaker 1: he hired his daughter, but you know he's long gone

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Speaker 1: as well, I mean from the campaign right, not from

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Speaker 1: from Earth correct? Okay, um uh yeah. I find it

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Speaker 1: so ironic that k Sick has the lone woman campaign manager,

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Speaker 1: Beth Hanson, because his policies regarding women, as he's been um,

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Speaker 1: Ohio governor, have not been so Lady friendly again, you're

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Speaker 1: being so diplomatic. Um. So he oversaw massive shutdowns of

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Speaker 1: abortion providers in the state. He passed two thousand thirteen

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Speaker 1: budget to defund Planned Parenthood while mandating ultrasounds. Um. And

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Speaker 1: in an interview with Beth Hansen in lm agazine, the

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Speaker 1: interviewer asked, like, what she thought about when k Sick

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Speaker 1: essentially shut down um a young woman's question in one

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Speaker 1: of his events by saying, oh, look, I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't have any tickets to the Taylor Swift concert. And

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Speaker 1: and L Magazine was understandably like, okay, Like, how do

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Speaker 1: you answer to that? How can you say that your

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Speaker 1: candidate is still like a woman friendly person? And she

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Speaker 1: was like, well, you know, he has young daughters, he

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Speaker 1: has teenage daughters, and he's just you know, I think

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Speaker 1: it was just like he was trying to be funny,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, it was just like spin spin spin spin. Um.

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Speaker 1: But apparently she's been she's been with him for quite

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Speaker 1: a while as well. Um. But if we look at

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Speaker 1: the gender breakdown in terms of UH numbers, just like

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Speaker 1: of staffers, every campaign minus Hillary Clinton's has employed significantly

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Speaker 1: more men than women, which does reflect just the roader

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Speaker 1: trend in politics. But for sure I was heartened to

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Speaker 1: see that Hillary Clinton, the one woman running for president,

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Speaker 1: did hire or has hired more women on her staff

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Speaker 1: than men. Yeah, and we will and it's not just Hillary.

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Speaker 1: We will talk about that aspect of women in politics

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Speaker 1: here again in a little bit. But you know, the

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Speaker 1: whole skewing male thing obviously has been going on for

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Speaker 1: for a minute. The political consulting field itself rose to

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Speaker 1: prominence in the nineteen seventies and eighties. This is when

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Speaker 1: you start to see the professionalization of people working on campaigns,

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Speaker 1: and of course consulting that sort of encompasses a broad

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Speaker 1: range of positions, everything from campaign managers to people who

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Speaker 1: were just consulting on like media appearances and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of a broad range of positions. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was in that we see the first ever female

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Speaker 1: campaign manager, Susan Estric. She was hired to run Democrat

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Speaker 1: Michael Dukakis's bid for president back then in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: But also, didn't she get it. She was kind of

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Speaker 1: the runner up. Oh yeah, she was not the first choice. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the dude he wanted to hire was I don't know,

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Speaker 1: other otherwise engaged washing his hair. Um. In two thousand

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Speaker 1: four Mary Beth k Hill, John Kerry's campaign manager, was

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Speaker 1: the only woman in that role UH for that presidential race.

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Speaker 1: And in eleven, according to often quoted Rhetger's political science

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Speaker 1: professor Kelly ditmar Uh, she was looking at political consultants,

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Speaker 1: which again that encompasses strategists, polsters, ad makers, managers, media advisors, UH,

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Speaker 1: people who were working in top firms on senatorial and

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Speaker 1: gubernatorial races those years eleven, and she found that about

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Speaker 1: seventy of consultants with strategic influence were men, but a

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Speaker 1: higher number of women were working on Democrat at campaigns

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Speaker 1: than on Republican ones. And that's like you see that

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Speaker 1: every year, almost in every type of race, at every

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Speaker 1: level of government, that more women are working for the Democrats,

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Speaker 1: more women are in the higher levels of those consulting

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Speaker 1: firms who work with Democrats. Yeah. So in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and fourteen, for instance, among key Senate races, six percent

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Speaker 1: of GOP campaigns had female managers versus of Democratic campaigns.

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Speaker 1: And that was something that met Romney's former deputy campaign

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Speaker 1: manager manager called disturbing in terms of the lack of

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Speaker 1: senior level women. Yeah, I mean so basically, when you

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Speaker 1: are reading articles about women in consulting in campaign strategy,

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Speaker 1: you just hear a couple of names over and over again,

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Speaker 1: some of like the o g women consultants and strategists,

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Speaker 1: and Republicans for instance, had poster Linda duvol Operative, Maria Cino,

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Speaker 1: and of course consultant Mary Madaline who she's almost more

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Speaker 1: famous for being married to James Carvel. They of the

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Speaker 1: opposite political ends of the spectrum. And for the Democrats

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Speaker 1: back in the day, you had media group gurus like

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Speaker 1: Mandy Grenwald and Don Legwin's and posters Salinda Lake and

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Speaker 1: Diane Feldman. Not to mention, superstar strategist and one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite Twitter presence is Donna brazil Yeah. I was

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Speaker 1: telling Caroline before we came in the studio to record

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Speaker 1: that Donna Brazila is one of the only things that

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Speaker 1: I really enjoy about watching CNN during elections, and she

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Speaker 1: is a political force to be reckoned with. Not to mention,

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Speaker 1: she's made history. Um so, she worked on every presidential

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Speaker 1: campaign from nineteen seventy six to two thousand and when

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Speaker 1: she ran Al Gore's two thousand campaign, Pane she became

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Speaker 1: the first African American man or woman to manage a

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Speaker 1: presidential campaign. Um, and I love this fact about her.

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Speaker 1: She first got involved in politics when she was nine

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Speaker 1: years old, working to elect a city council member who

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Speaker 1: promised to build a playground in her neighborhood, which immediately

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Speaker 1: made me wonder, like, was that Leslie Nope from Parks

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Speaker 1: and Wreck, because it would how perfect would that be? Um?

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Speaker 1: I know that's impossible because Leslie Nope is not real technically, Um,

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Speaker 1: it could be. In my heart, it could be totally

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Speaker 1: based on that story about Donna Brazil, who she did

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Speaker 1: right in a memoir that for nearly my entire life,

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Speaker 1: my mother worked as a maid. Never in her wildest

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Speaker 1: dreams did she imagine that her daughter would gropp to

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Speaker 1: influence national politics or manage a presidential campaign. And I

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Speaker 1: mean it's funny that I wonder if she's sort of

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Speaker 1: downplaying it, because clearly this woman is determined and single minded,

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Speaker 1: and even from the age of I like, was clearly

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Speaker 1: a little politician who was able to affect change. And

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Speaker 1: speaking of her, though, women of color have been intimately

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Speaker 1: involved in grassroots political organizing since the reconstruction and early

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Speaker 1: civil rights eras with people like I. T. B. Wells

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Speaker 1: and Mary Church Terrell and Mary McLoud Bethoon UM who

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Speaker 1: were instrumental in the National Association of Colored Women that

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Speaker 1: was highly invested in UM activating women within black communities

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Speaker 1: to organize and get out and vote UM so that

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Speaker 1: they could you know, elect officials that would have their

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Speaker 1: needs in mind. UM and segueing though into today's more

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Speaker 1: establishment political machines has not surprisingly been harder not just

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Speaker 1: for women of color but for people of color in general.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned, Caroline that Donna Brazil is so sing

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Speaker 1: go minded. If we look at the night Michael Dukakis campaign, Uh,

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Speaker 1: this totally reinforces and UM just goes to show how

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Speaker 1: how single minded she truly is. So essentially, like, not intentionally,

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Speaker 1: the campaign siloed its top tier operatives onto a separate

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Speaker 1: floor in their campaign headquarters UM, which mostly meant that

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Speaker 1: all the white dudes were up top and everyone else

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Speaker 1: was on the bottom. And Brazil and Mignon Moore were

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Speaker 1: field directors at the time, and those two plus Susan

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Speaker 1: Rice stormed upstairs, claimed a conference room on the top

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Speaker 1: floor and put a sign on the door that said

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Speaker 1: Colored Girls, we shall not be moved. And essentially, from

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Speaker 1: that moment, this group of women, these political consultants calling

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Speaker 1: themselves the Colored Girls, have become this DC force that

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Speaker 1: if you hope to get elected on you know, for

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Speaker 1: any national campaign, like, you gotta have dinner with them.

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Speaker 1: They hold these like regular dinners, and essentially candidates come

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Speaker 1: in and they grill them, basically making sure that they

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Speaker 1: are keeping communities of color and mind, because it's like

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Speaker 1: if if they don't like you, you're probably not going

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Speaker 1: to get elected. Yeah. Well, just like do CAUCUSUS headquarters

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Speaker 1: weren't intentionally segregated along race or gender lines. I mean

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Speaker 1: that that could stand in for all of politics. Politics

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Speaker 1: aren't necessarily intentionally segregated along those lines, but they often are.

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Speaker 1: And so you have women like Brazil and the rest

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Speaker 1: of the Color Girls group that form this influential contingent

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Speaker 1: of women of color who are able to advise candidates

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Speaker 1: and remind them gently or not that you can't forget

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Speaker 1: that the Democratic base rests on the vote of not

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Speaker 1: just white men, but people of color and women. And

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Speaker 1: so if you want to make it in this town,

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Speaker 1: like you've got to be able to think outside of

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Speaker 1: your own bubble. Well, yeah, and it's African American women's

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Speaker 1: vote in particular. Um. But one more thing about that campaign,

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Speaker 1: It is surprising that that even happened because, like you

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Susan Estric was the campaign manager. It's like

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Speaker 1: sus s what happened. Um. But today the group of

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Speaker 1: color Girls, which they still refer to themselves as UM,

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Speaker 1: has expanded to include a few more women, including Reverend

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Speaker 1: Leady Daughtry and consultant Yolanda H. Caraway UM and also

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Speaker 1: the d n C General counts old Tina Flourne. And

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Speaker 1: in a New York Times profile of this group, a

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Speaker 1: number of politicians spoke to their influence, including Howard Dean,

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Speaker 1: who said, quote, they're very rare Washington insiders who understand

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Speaker 1: the rest of the country. Um. And this whole thing

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Speaker 1: speaks to why looking at who is behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: in these political campaigns matter, because if you only have

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Speaker 1: white men or also white women who are crafting your platforms, essentially,

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Speaker 1: then there probably aren't going to necessarily take an intersectional

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Speaker 1: approach to policymaking. Yeah, exactly, And that's why Tana Bui

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Speaker 1: points out in Asian American Policy Review that the campaign

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Speaker 1: staff needs to reflect constituent diversity. And she also points

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Speaker 1: out that you might have training programs if you want

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Speaker 1: to work on campaigns or in strategy. You know, there

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Speaker 1: might be a training program that's just general or ones

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Speaker 1: you know, specifically geared toward women, but there's nothing really

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Speaker 1: out there for people of color who want to step

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Speaker 1: up and work with campaigns and be that voice for

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Speaker 1: other populations that want to see themselves represented well and

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Speaker 1: in conversations about the gender gap within UM like our

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Speaker 1: elected officials. I think that this part of the pipeline,

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Speaker 1: the background political consulting and strategists and campaign managers, that

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Speaker 1: aspect of the pipeline is something that I know I

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Speaker 1: didn't think about before reading up for this podcast. We

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Speaker 1: just think of, oh, well, we just need more women

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Speaker 1: to stand up and be willing to be candidates. But

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Speaker 1: this is an integral part of getting more women in

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Speaker 1: office too, UM And that's something that Boy underscores in

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Speaker 1: terms of the pipeline issue that if you do not

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Speaker 1: training and empower more women of color to enter into

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Speaker 1: political strategy and have influence in that realm, than the

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Speaker 1: pipeline is still going to be leaky. Yeah, And what

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize before preparing for this episode is that

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Speaker 1: when women are working in campaigns in strategy or consulting

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Speaker 1: or whatever, they tend to be concentrated in fundraising, which

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Speaker 1: I had no idea. And this information is coming from

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Speaker 1: Katie Or from k qe D and Abby Rappaport from

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Speaker 1: The Texas Tribune. Uh So, basically, forever women have been

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Speaker 1: barred from those higher level strategic positions in campaigns. And

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Speaker 1: while they're more likely to be registered voters and grassroots organizers,

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Speaker 1: they are way less likely to rise to those elite levels.

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Speaker 1: So what is the deal? Why are these women like

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Speaker 1: shuttled off to fundraising positions? Well, first of all, this

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Speaker 1: reflects a broader trend of women in nonprofits, of it

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Speaker 1: being more acceptable for women to be in the upper

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Speaker 1: ranks of nonprofit organization that's just fundraising and raising money

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Speaker 1: versus to help others to help up exactly the whole

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Speaker 1: altruism thing, versus something that's considered far more masculine in

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Speaker 1: terms of being in the war room of campaign strategy.

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Speaker 1: So um, Rappaport and Or talked to a number of

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Speaker 1: women who are consultants and also fundraisers and politics, and

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Speaker 1: they essentially compiled the laundry list of all of these

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Speaker 1: presumably female friendly work responsibilities that we hear over and

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Speaker 1: over again in terms of many pink collar jobs. So

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Speaker 1: you have the whole thing of altruism, of humility and

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Speaker 1: putting others first. You're raising money not for yourself but

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Speaker 1: on behalf of this candidate and for the community at law,

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Speaker 1: which reminds me of our conversation with Gina and Ashley

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Speaker 1: from recruit Her when we talked about negotiating and how

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Speaker 1: it seems to for salary and how it seems to

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Speaker 1: be so much more acceptable for a woman to um

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Speaker 1: negotiate for a higher salary for someone else or based

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Speaker 1: in logic around helping others. So yeah, same exact thing,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the women, as both a positive

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Speaker 1: and a negative, said that the duties that come along

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Speaker 1: with fundraising, like event planning, sending out invitations, and playing

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Speaker 1: hostess are traditionally women oriented tasks, and as Susan Lily,

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Speaker 1: a Republican consultant, put it, these tasks typically fall on women,

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Speaker 1: whether it's in politics or a wedding well, and the

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Speaker 1: whole idea too that it's detail oriented work um, and

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Speaker 1: and therefore appealing to women and therefore something that women

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Speaker 1: do better than men is something that we have heard

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Speaker 1: also applied to a lot of other sectors as well. UM.

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Speaker 1: Not to say that, like, don't you tell me the

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Speaker 1: women are detail oriented? I am so sloppy, right, But

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Speaker 1: it's the whole thing of like, are you saying that

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Speaker 1: being detail oriented and a planner is only a woman thing? Exactly?

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Speaker 1: Exactly um? And then there's a whole socialization aspect of it. Um.

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Speaker 1: This was something that Amy Boone, who started her own

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Speaker 1: consulting firm before moving over to the Texas Democratic Trust,

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Speaker 1: talked about, saying, from the time where little girls, we

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Speaker 1: are conditioned to not really be the ones raising our hands.

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Speaker 1: So again it's that that fun fundraising is feminine. Who

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Speaker 1: knew exactly? And then Boone went on to explain that

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Speaker 1: it's possible that women are just getting pigeonholed. She said

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Speaker 1: that it's common when a woman shows up to work

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Speaker 1: on a campaign without much experience and without much confidence,

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Speaker 1: this senior staff just tend to push her over into

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Speaker 1: a junior fundraising role where she can do things like

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Speaker 1: just stay behind the scenes planning, making phone calls, planning

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Speaker 1: parties and stuff like that, just basically assistant role stuff.

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Speaker 1: And so if that's the position that you're placed in

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Speaker 1: and you do want to advance, well you're probably just

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Speaker 1: going to continue advancing up that fundraising ladder. But despite

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Speaker 1: the fact that women are the overwhelming majority in fundraising,

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Speaker 1: if nowhere else in campaign strategy, they're still not typically

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Speaker 1: the ones making the decisions because, as Ditmark points out,

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Speaker 1: you might be in fundraising and you might be bringing

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Speaker 1: in all of this cash money, but that's not a

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Speaker 1: like clear cut strategic role the way that being, for instance,

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Speaker 1: a campaign manager or a media spokesperson would be. And

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Speaker 1: in a very blatantly sexist kind of way. Um, some

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Speaker 1: campaigns are simply nervous about putting women in charge of

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Speaker 1: strategy because it does violate gender norms in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways if we think of campaigns as going to war,

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Speaker 1: as many political consultants do. And this was something that

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Speaker 1: Anne Urban, who began professional campaign work for Republicans way

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen She said, I think there's an old

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Speaker 1: school conservative, good old boy inclination to go with a

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Speaker 1: guy because it's too rough and tumble to be a woman. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I mean that goes hand in hand with the

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Speaker 1: pigeonholing thing and just pushing a woman off into fundraising.

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Speaker 1: If you just assume that someone who doesn't look like

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Speaker 1: you is only going to be good at one thing,

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Speaker 1: or she's not going to be good at what the

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Speaker 1: thing you're good at, then how like who's going to

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Speaker 1: break that barrier? Because if you're just operating on assumptions

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Speaker 1: about what a woman is cut out for. And I

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Speaker 1: think that the likability factor plays into this as well,

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Speaker 1: um where you see women who might be in those

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Speaker 1: more strategic roles shot calling likelier to be dismissed as bitches. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so a lot of the women that were interviewed,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about how you know a lot of successful

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Speaker 1: women in campaigning and campaign strategy and consulting have to

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Speaker 1: be comfortable with that. You have to be okay with

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Speaker 1: getting called a bit because it's inevitable. And one woman

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Speaker 1: pointed out like a lot of women just aren't comfortable

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Speaker 1: with that, and especially when you're starting out, and so

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Speaker 1: that could also get you hamstrung from progressing at the

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Speaker 1: ladder in strategy. And then you have the optics issue

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Speaker 1: because a you have um the idea that an attractive

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Speaker 1: woman is going to be better at raising money because

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Speaker 1: who doesn't want to give cash to a beautiful woman?

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Speaker 1: Where At a campaign manager who's going to be on

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Speaker 1: the road with a candidate, especially if that candidate is male,

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Speaker 1: if you have a lady traveling alongside him, then might

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Speaker 1: that raise some eyebrows about how close their relationship really is.

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Speaker 1: And that's something too that is not exclusive to political consulting,

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Speaker 1: but really, I mean workplaces at large where it's like,

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Speaker 1: it's fine if all the guys go out for a

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Speaker 1: happy hour um after work, but if a lady wants

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Speaker 1: to tag along, then then people might get a little nervous.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and so one of the quotes that really

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Speaker 1: sort of I had to read a couple of times

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Speaker 1: to make sure that I was reading it correctly was

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Speaker 1: from that Republican consultant Susan Lily, who said, uh, male

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Speaker 1: candidates don't need to be traveling with a young, attractive female.

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Speaker 1: I can give the wrong impression even though there's nothing

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Speaker 1: really wrong with it. So kind of giving into just well,

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Speaker 1: tongues will wag, so we better just not do it.

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Speaker 1: You better just avoid it. Um. But there's I mean

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Speaker 1: so many other aspects of why women get tripped up

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Speaker 1: trying to pursue jobs in strategy and consulting. Uh. But

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Speaker 1: of course, these are things that we see in so

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Speaker 1: many other professional fields, and we will get right back

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Speaker 1: into them when we come back from a quick break.

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Speaker 1: So there was this series of interviews that some researchers

429
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: conducted with consultants back in two thousand three, and they

430
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: found that those consultants, men and women alike, believed that

431
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: women in consulting political consulting face different rules of the game,

432
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: so to speak, including having to work twice as hard

433
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: to be successful in the business, not being taken as

434
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: seriously or seen to be as credible by candidates and

435
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: the political parties as the men folk, and having to

436
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: be careful about being too aggressive in their marketing and

437
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: approach to business. So these are not just like think

438
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: peace writers talking about this stuff. These are the consultants

439
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: themselves talking about the perceptions of women among themselves, among

440
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: their own ranks. And it seems like that aggressive penalty

441
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: comes up over and over again when you hear from

442
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: women in this field. Um, Liz Shatter and Powell, who's

443
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: the VP of political Strategies with Bates, Niem and Ink,

444
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: which is a democratic direct mail and issue advocacy consulting firm,

445
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: said that you have to be aggressive to rise to

446
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: the position as an executive director of a committee or

447
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: a partner in a consulting firm, which, again you have

448
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: that socialization aspect. This is a behavior that women are

449
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: socialized from young ages, often against UM, even though many

450
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: people in the field embrace it. UM. And you also

451
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: have the issue of you know, the Doug stampers, the

452
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: men in power who might not be so keen on

453
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: giving them a leg up. Yeah, and then a huge

454
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: factor UM in the field, just like it is comes

455
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: up any time we talk about women who are alive

456
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: and having children. Is the whole family and parenting aspect

457
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: because if you whether you're a working mom or a

458
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: stay at home mom, uh, you're socially expected to be

459
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: there for your children and your family more than you're

460
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: expected to be at work. It's the whole mommy tracking

461
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: issue We've talked about before and Uh. Angela Faulkner, who's

462
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: a Republican direct mail consultant, told the Publication Campaigns and

463
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: Elections that she felt huge stigma as a mom and

464
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: full time consultant, especially when she was traveling overseas for clients.

465
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: She talked about how early in her career she actually

466
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: felt resentment from other women. Not dudes, not dudes calling

467
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: her out I'm calling her about mom, but resentment from

468
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: other women who were questioning her decision to work in

469
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: Venezuela's recall election rather than stay home with her children. Yeah,

470
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: she said, when people talk about family values, it's usually

471
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: based on a stable home environment, and many conservatives feel

472
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: that a stable home environment requires a mother that isn't

473
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: required to travel. UM and the the child care aspect

474
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: also reminds me of a Glamour magazine piece that we

475
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: read profiling UM women in the current election, And one

476
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: thing that Huma Aberdeen said was if Hillary is elected,

477
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: what she's going to do the very next day is

478
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: turn off her phone and spend the day with her son,

479
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: making him pasta and taking him out for ice cream,

480
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: which I was like, can I come over a UM,

481
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: But it kind of drives home, like I was reminded

482
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: reading that, like, oh, yeah, you probably do not get

483
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: to see your kid all that often because it is

484
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: a twenty four seven job. Yeah, it does make me

485
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: think of how how could Doug be a father, I

486
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: mean a side stampers of cards, Doug stamper on house

487
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: of cards, Like how could he be let alone? All

488
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: of the you know, personality court, sociopathy. Yeah, well that too, um.

489
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: But you know, it's it's hard across the board to

490
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: make time for family or social life or anything when

491
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: you are working in a political campaign. That goes without saying,

492
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: but it turns out that those grueling schedules can make

493
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: certain jobs more difficult than others. For instance, media consultants

494
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: typically end up with the hardest schedules of any operatives

495
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: because you know, I mean it makes sense. You've got

496
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: to respond rapidly if something happens. If Donald Trump says

497
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: yet another thing about women are Muslims, You've got to

498
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: have your phone on to be able to respond, and

499
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: plus you've got nearly constant travel. And so that, according

500
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: to a lot of female operatives interviewed, is one of

501
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: the reasons that they're likely fewer women in media than

502
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: in places like polling, fun raising or direct mail. So

503
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: yet again, for many women in this industry, there is

504
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: that double standard forced choice of motherhood versus career, and

505
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: how are you going to make the two work together.

506
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: And obviously there are plenty of women who are doing

507
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 1: just that, But the issue is that men typically do

508
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: not face the same kind of decision making, right, And

509
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it turns out, when we hinted at this earlier,

510
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: that party affiliation is definitely a factor. According to a

511
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: study in the Journal of Political Marketing from eleven, they

512
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: wrote that women consultants tend to work for democratic firms

513
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: consulting firms more often than Republican led ones, and that

514
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: women led firms were more likely to be hired by

515
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: democratic rather than Republican candidates. And so basically this study

516
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: echoed prior studies that found that not only are more

517
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: women consultants Democrats, but Democratic consulting firms are more likely

518
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: to have women named as partners, and so as a result,

519
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: Democratic candidates are more likely to hire consulting firms with

520
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: women partners. It's like gender politics math literal gender politics. Well, yeah, exactly, Well,

521
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 1: and I wonder if that kind of partisanship in this

522
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: issue goes to what Angela Faulkner, who was that Republican

523
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: direct mail consultant, talked about in terms of UH Conservatives

524
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: having a very distinct perception of family values. That's often

525
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: a top conservative platform, and family values often when it

526
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: comes to when you look through the Republican lens um

527
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,439
Speaker 1: often involves a woman at least closer to home. But

528
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,959
Speaker 1: I mean it's not like women aren't out there doing

529
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: it for themselves. They are. There are more women these

530
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: days leading campaigns, leading superpath X, and heading up consulting firms.

531
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: One thing I didn't expect, I guess I should have

532
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: expected it is that it's actually really hard to find numbers.

533
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: You know, Kristen and I love citing stats. It's like

534
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: our favorite thing. We love to give you percentages, but

535
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: it's hard to find clear cut percentages and stats when

536
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: you're dealing with so many private firms and behind the scenes,

537
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: uh makeups and breakdowns of demographics, which again I mean

538
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: like ridiculous that that is the case in something that

539
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: lives and breathes by data. But of course, I mean

540
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: it's data and also image, so there's only select data

541
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: that you would probably want visible to the public. Um.

542
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: But you do have more women who are starting their

543
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: own consulting firms, and it's not just democratic women. You

544
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: have Katie Packer, Gauge, Ashley O'Connor and Christine Matthews who

545
00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: got together and founded the Republican focused firm Burning Glass

546
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: US Consulting UM, because the Democratic narrative about the GOP

547
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: has been the whole war on women. So these three

548
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: consultants got together and we're like, you know, this whole

549
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: tone deafness issue that a number of Republican candidates have

550
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: had when it comes to women is something that we

551
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: could really focus on. And the whole Burning Glass aspect

552
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: of their name comes from the idea that they're going

553
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: to be so laser focus, like it's like a sunbeam

554
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: that could burn through the glass. I think I got

555
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: that right, basically, Yeah, exactly. But according to Sarah Brewer,

556
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 1: who's the former associate director of the Women in Politics

557
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: Institute an American university, UH found through her research that

558
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: female political consultants often work twice as long in the

559
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: field before starting their own firms than men do. And

560
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: the speculation around that, I mean, there's a couple of

561
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: reasons that could be one. And you need obviously kind

562
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: of a fat rolodex of clients and connections to start

563
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: your own thing, and if you are not in a

564
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: client contact heavy position, it's harder to make those direct connections. Uh.

565
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: There's also the thing that we've seen so often when

566
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: we talk about women or really any minority group, uh,

567
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: in a professional capacity, that there's often this need to

568
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: feel that you have to work harder to prove yourself.

569
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: And that makes it sound like you just internalized that

570
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: and feel like you have to do that. But often

571
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: people around you, I guess in this case it would

572
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: be the white guys and working in the campaign expect

573
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: you to work harder. Well. And I mean the very

574
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 1: fact that Burning Glass Consulting received a New York Times

575
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: profile an interview by Amanda Hess insulate all of this

576
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: media coverage because it was three Republican women, you know,

577
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: forming this consulting firm, I think speaks to how you

578
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: of this. This is kind of a rarity. Oh yeah,

579
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: I mean, and especially when it comes to Republican consulting,

580
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: right exactly. Um, But INLVE, women ran more than half

581
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: of the thirteen most competitive Democratic Senate campaigns, and that

582
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: year women were also in charge of two key campaign committees,

583
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: the National Republican Congressional Committee and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee.

584
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: But uh, those are both back to being headed by dudes,

585
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: So it's not like a permanent change. Um. And again

586
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: that increase in women operatives has been stronger on the

587
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: Democratic side, and in twelve on the Republican side, there

588
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: was just one female manager working on those top thirteen

589
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: most competitive Senate races. So as we are seeing slowly

590
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: but surely the numbers of women in political campaigning increasing,

591
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: the question is why is this happening? Um? So it

592
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: could have to do with an influx of money into

593
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: and the professionalization of campaigns, which creates more opportunities for consultants. Um.

594
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: I mean, the way that political campaigns are funded have

595
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: has been a major issue on the Democratic side of

596
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: the presidential race this year. Um. And you also have

597
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: a deeper bench of female operatives who have gradually risen

598
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: to the top, not to mention an increasing focus and

599
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: just general acknowledgement that female voters win elections. I mean,

600
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: women essentially are the people who decide who at least

601
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: gets to the White House. Yeah. And another big aspect

602
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: of this is the proliferation, like dandelions on your front yard,

603
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: of super PACs. And those super PACs offer men or

604
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: women more job flexibility and and schedule fle stability. Than

605
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: working directly for candidates. And that's so that's attractive to

606
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: anyone male or female who has a family or you know,

607
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, like seventeen cats, like whatever, you know,

608
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: or like a bocci ball league on the weekends, like

609
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: whatever you want to do to make your life more rewarding,

610
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 1: you would have a little bit more time for it.

611
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: And Alexandria lap who's the executive director of the House

612
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: Majority Pack, says, yeah, I'm not getting a call at

613
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: eleven pm from the D Triple C chair of Congressman

614
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 1: so and so you answer to your donors, but it's

615
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: different than answering to a politician. And super Packs, by

616
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: the way, in case you are not familiar, it's their

617
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: job to raise and spend a ton of money, but

618
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: they can't donate money directly to candidates. So there is

619
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: that layer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, there is that layer

620
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: of separations. So, yeah, you're not answering directly to like

621
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 1: an angry candidate or an angry campaign manager who wants

622
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: to talk to you in the middle of the night.

623
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, what if Doug Stamper called you in the

624
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: middle of the night, chilling. I don't think i'd answer

625
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: I don't have the the exact numbers in front of me,

626
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: But in terms of women of color and political activism,

627
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: there's also been an exponential um influx of packs forming

628
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: specifically to um engage those groups. I mean, for instance,

629
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: you have Rosario Dawson's co founded Voto Latino UM and

630
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: all sorts of groups like that that have risen in

631
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: just I mean the past five ten years. Yeah, because

632
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: politically you kind of have to fight fire with fire,

633
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: and by fire I mean cash. Money's lots and lots

634
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: of cash moneys, like a Scrooge McDuck pool of money

635
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: to buy ads that's not directly contributing to a politician.

636
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: But politics, I know, I know, I just I hate it.

637
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: I was thinking today actually, when we were preparing to

638
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: come into the studio, Like I looked out the window

639
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 1: wistfully and I just thought, God, I would kill for

640
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: candidates who were just humans, you know what I mean.

641
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: Like you can like and respect a candidate all you

642
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: want all day long, and like get caught up in

643
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: the idealism and believe what he or she says and

644
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: be behind them, But God, I would feel so much

645
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: better if candidates were just like, yeah, you know this

646
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: thing over here sucks like well, I mean, I think

647
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: some of that is due to the fact that we

648
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: are a two party system, so you have, you know,

649
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: like two people who are going for like such a

650
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: diverse yeah, massive group of people. Yeah. I was just

651
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: so when Baynard called Chris Lucifer in the flesh, I

652
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: was just like, that is I'm not even a Republican.

653
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: Was that the realist moment for you? So far? That

654
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: was a campaign that one of the realist moments? And

655
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: I was like, God, that's refreshing. Well. And one thing

656
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,479
Speaker 1: we you know, haven't even gotten into and and don't

657
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: have time to is the rise of the kind of

658
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: superstar political manager like a Karl Rove. I mean, I

659
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: think that he's probably the most intense example of that.

660
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: I mean that that man has really, in a lot

661
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: of ways, um changed American culture. I mean, he's responsible,

662
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: I think, for a vast majority of the conservative political

663
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: climate right now. Well. Yeah, and even with Karl Rove,

664
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: though you had Karen Hughes, I think only temporarily. I

665
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 1: don't think she was with George Bush for the long haul.

666
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: She had worked with him back in Texas UM and

667
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: worked with him on one, if not both, of his

668
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: election presidential election campaigns. Um, so you did have a

669
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: woman sort of like in the wings behind row. But

670
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: for all of his puppet mastering, Karl Rove gets both

671
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: the credit and the blame for all of the stuff

672
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: that happened in George Bush's presidency. Well, and he's positioned

673
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,439
Speaker 1: himself in that way too, because I mean, I don't

674
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: know that I've ever seen Karen Hughes on television before,

675
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: but when you have Karl Robe all the time. Yeah,

676
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: And that's that's one thing we were reading about two

677
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: is like how in this modern era you do have

678
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: people like Mary Magdalene and James Carville, Karl Rove, Donna Brazil,

679
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: people who are political consultants who even like in the

680
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 1: boom times of the seventies and eighties when they first emerged,

681
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: still we're behind the scenes. And slowly but surely or

682
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, I guess, they became the talking heads on

683
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: your cable news networks, you know, your columnists in newspapers,

684
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: and they have become celebrities and pseudo politicians in their

685
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 1: own right. Well. Yeah, speaking of House of Cards, Donna

686
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: Brazil has made two cameos on the show. I mean

687
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: James Carville was in old school. I don't know, like

688
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: that is a fact in my brain that um, I

689
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: wish it could be replaced with something more useful. UM.

690
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: But I mean James Craffel has made so many cameos

691
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: and all sorts of stuff. Um. And but that whole

692
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: thing too, I would attribute going back to old j

693
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: school days, journalism school where Caroline and I first met. Um.

694
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: It's all about the twenty four hour news cycle too,

695
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 1: so of course they're pulling from the stable of people

696
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: who are really good about talking politics and also spinning

697
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: and kind of you know, uh, shooting from the hip

698
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: with Wolf Blitzer, Yeah who. I once flew in a

699
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: plane with Um and he was carrying a garment bag

700
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: onto the plane and it was monogrammed with his wolf initials,

701
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: and I was hoping it would just be like an

702
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: airbrushed picture of a wolf. God. I wish, I wish, um,

703
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: But I think the most surprising thing was that his

704
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: beard was almost translucent. Strange. I thought you were going

705
00:46:58,640 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: to say it was like a fake sand of b

706
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: that was tied on behind his ears. Also, I wish,

707
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: but I want your your wolf Blitzer. Um. I was

708
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: on a plane with Kathleen Sebelius, one time former head

709
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: of Health and Human Services. We made eye contact when

710
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: there was a really annoying woman talking on her cell phone.

711
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 1: Kathleen I waved to her, um, anyway, if you're listening,

712
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: shout out, um So anyway, it's kind of obvious and

713
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: goes without saying. And in Kristen you already touched on

714
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: this earlier in the podcast that if you don't represent

715
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: the population in your campaign, in your strategy, like, it's

716
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: obviously going to ding you because you're not going to

717
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: be able to fully get the picture of your electorate.

718
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: And dip Marcus, can you imagine? Um ditmar writing about

719
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: this says you have to be able to understand how

720
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 1: to speak to all voters, including hello, over of the population,

721
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: which is women voters, and she points out as if

722
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: she needs to that listen, you guys. There is value

723
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: in women's experiences and women's voices, and that value can

724
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: be applied to shaping policy. Okay, of course I agree

725
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: with all of that, of course, but we have a

726
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 1: massive glaring exception to the idea that you will get

727
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: dinged at the polls. If you don't know how to

728
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: speak to all voters, and that would be the runaway

729
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: success of one Donald J. Trump, formerly drump But he

730
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: yet well, yeah, but he's not doing well in the

731
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: polls with women, right, but he's still the as of

732
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: the time that we are recording this podcast. Who knows

733
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: what will have changed when this episode publishes. He's the

734
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: presumptive Republican nominee and it doesn't matter. He doesn't even

735
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: he doesn't need women. I mean, granted in the general election,

736
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: I would be surprised if it didn't come back to

737
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: haunt him. Um. But it it's I mean, the the

738
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: American electorate also is so um. I don't I don't

739
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 1: know how a good word to describe it. It's so

740
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: polarized at this point, it's so extremely polarized that unfortunately,

741
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: you can make excluding certain people's rights and liberties, including

742
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,959
Speaker 1: not only um women, but also Muslims in the case

743
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: of the Trump campaigns, and really anyone who's not wearing

744
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: a Make America Grade Again hat and not wearing it ironically. Um,

745
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: but that you can, you can do that and unfortunately succeed. Yeah,

746
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: but like you said, I mean, he's a runaway success

747
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:56,240
Speaker 1: with a very specific demographic. He would not, I don't

748
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:01,240
Speaker 1: think do very well in the general against Hilary or Bernie.

749
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: We'll see fingers hell. I mean at this point though, UM,

750
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: And I'm really curious to hear from our listeners outside

751
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: of the US about all of this too, because I'm

752
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: sure it just looks like nonsense happening. It is it is.

753
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't, I don't. I can't even make

754
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: any predictions at this point. No. I asked my father

755
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: who he was voting for, and uh, he just kind

756
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: of looks at me, because he and I do not

757
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: talk politics, and he just looked at me and he said,

758
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: I'll be voting for Kasik after the contested uh nomination.

759
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: So but I mean, that's another interesting example of you

760
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 1: can not have women's best interest at heart. But if

761
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: you keep quiet about how you feel about women as

762
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,760
Speaker 1: opposed to Donald Trump, well maybe Beth Harden, his campaign manager,

763
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: has had something to do with that. Who knows exactly. UM,

764
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: But of course it's not these aren't do desirable outcomes,

765
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, we would like to see UM people elected

766
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: who do UM value women, UM, not just as like humans,

767
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: is like beautiful objects, like Donald Trump has but as um,

768
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: you know, people who should be kept in mind when

769
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,399
Speaker 1: making and passing policy. And that is one reason why

770
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 1: we need to give a massive shout out to Emily's List,

771
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: which is a political action committee for pro choice Democratic

772
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: female candidates. Um. If you don't know who they are,

773
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: go look them up. Um they're terrific. Um. And just McIntosh,

774
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 1: who works with them, agrees that. I mean, it's simply

775
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: a practicality to have women working in your campaign. She says,

776
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: by having women and leadership roles, you're going to have

777
00:51:55,640 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: more needed perspectives about messaging, reaching voters, all of that.

778
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,959
Speaker 1: When she was speaking to Vocative, Well, what I thought

779
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: was so interesting and telling. Remember that two thousand three

780
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: consultant study that I mentioned a little while ago. Yes, yes, rewind.

781
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: If you don't on your tape deck, your podcast tape deck, rewind.

782
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: This comes out on cassettes, right Yeah, well how yeah,

783
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: people order them on those. Um you remember those like

784
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: cassette services like Columbia, like Titus Andromeda Schmidt subscribed to exactly. Um.

785
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: So you know they talked to a bunch of consultants,

786
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: male and female, and seventy of the women they talked to,

787
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: and just thirty percent of the men believed that women

788
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: brought a unique perspective to the campaign and that this

789
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: perspective could be used strategically to win elections. So interesting,

790
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: because then, if you don't believe that women have a

791
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 1: unique perspective, and you are accustomed to hiring and promoting

792
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 1: people who are like you, why why would you make

793
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: a special effort to bring women in Yet again, I

794
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: feel like this is just a microcosm of issues that

795
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 1: we see across industries right well, which is why so

796
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: many women interviewed in the articles that we read for

797
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: this episode cited the importance of mentors who can help

798
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,959
Speaker 1: guide you through those gender expectations, through those mind field,

799
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: those political mind fields, and the importance of women helping

800
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: and hiring other women. It's not uncommon, according to a

801
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: lot of the women we read uh for women in

802
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: campaigns and consulting firms to band together, at least within

803
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: their own parties and commit to helping bring up promising

804
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: young women that live Chatter and Powell, who we cited earlier,

805
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: encourages female candidates and female oriented packs to work only

806
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: with female consultants. And it's worth noting that women candidates do,

807
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 1: in fact, tend to hire more women to work on

808
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: their campaigns than male candidates do, and she says if

809
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: we don't help our own, we will never be successful

810
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: at tearing down walls. Um She said that in one

811
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: campaign that she was working on, a male staff member,

812
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: a Democratic male staff member, told her that he she

813
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: couldn't run one of his top Senate campaign races because quote,

814
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: I was female and none of his candidates would take

815
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 1: orders from a woman. That's that's my eloquent response to that. Yeah,

816
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: and so um Pal also writes that women can at

817
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: least be there for each other to help encourage one

818
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: another to stick it out. She says women are way

819
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: more likely than men in this field of work to basically,

820
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: I mean, for lack of a better word, and I'm

821
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: just gonna use the buzzword, but lean out when they

822
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: decide that they want a quote unquote real job that

823
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 1: will afford them some free time to have a family

824
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: or whatever. Um and So she envisions pal and visions

825
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 1: this landscape where you have training seminars that are exclusively

826
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: for female operatives, given exclusively by female consultants that would

827
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 1: then after the fact offer a consistent stream of mentoring

828
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,839
Speaker 1: support to help women stick it out, or really just

829
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 1: to help women plan their career trajectories in whatever political

830
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: direction they want to go. Yeah, I mean it's an

831
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 1: exhausting job. I can only imagine UM getting into this field. So, um,

832
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear if there are any listeners who

833
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: are currently campaigning for UM for candidates right now, or

834
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: who have done so in the past, who can give

835
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: us more feet on the street insights into this. And

836
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: before we get into listener mail, I want to quickly

837
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: correct myself. Um, just a minute ago, when we were

838
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: mentioning Kimmy Schmidt, I refer to Titus Andromedas. His name

839
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: is Titus Andromedon. Tins Andromedas is actually a band that

840
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 1: I used to listen to all the time. So listeners,

841
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 1: don't don't worry. Don't worry. I know, I know. Um. So,

842
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,720
Speaker 1: I just wanted to make that a very important point clear. Sorry,

843
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: I was our I was just envisioning. I didn't even

844
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,439
Speaker 1: hear you finish that because I was just envisioning tied

845
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: us breaking that tape and having so um. Yeah, I

846
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: just I just assumed you said it correctly. Well, listeners,

847
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: now we want to hear from you. Mom Stuff at

848
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot Com is our email address. You

849
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,240
Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages

850
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: on Facebook. And if by chance you know Donna Brasilt

851
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: pullease send her our best. And we've got a couple

852
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:36,800
Speaker 1: of messages this year with you right now. Well, I

853
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 1: have a letter here from Sarah in response to our

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00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: episode on the comfort women of World War Two. She says,

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00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: I was surprised to discover a bit of my own

856
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: family history. My grandfather is a renowned cardiologist now, but

857
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,919
Speaker 1: got his start as a brigade surgeon in the Army

858
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: during World War Two in the Pacific Theater. For most

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00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: of my life he never ever talked about the war. However,

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00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: as I've gotten older I'm thirty two and have since

861
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: enlisted in the Air Force, he felt comfortable enough telling

862
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 1: me bits and pieces about his service. Shortly after the

863
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: war ended, my grandfather was in Japan trying to prevent

864
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: epidemics from breaking out among the troops. One of his

865
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 1: duties while there was apparently delousing the women high ranking

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00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: military officers slept with. I never realized quite what that

867
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: meant until right now. That's such a terrible position to

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00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: be in. I guess I now know why he never

869
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to me about that job in particular.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for the clarity, and thanks for everything you ladies do.

871
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: I listen to your podcast all the time. Well thanks,

872
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: Sarah So. I gotta let her here from Lena offering

873
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: some clarifications and corrections about that episode. Um so So,

874
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: she says, we, referring to Koreans, aren't just upset about

875
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: the comfort women issue. Japan to date has never actually apologized,

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00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: and they continue to refuse to do so. The last

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00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: so called apology was more of a we're sorry you

878
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: went through that. In recent years, Japan tried to eliminate

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00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: a monument to comfort women from various countries, including Korea,

880
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: the Philippines, China, and other countries. And she goes on

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00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: to say, I get the things happened and need to

882
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: be discussed, but depicting Korean culture as one where men

883
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: would prostitute their own daughters honestly makes it sound like

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00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: you're trying to reduce the seriousness of what Japan did

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00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 1: in numerous countries. As you mentioned, one of the worst

886
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: things these women face post war was a social shame

887
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: of their experience and the ways in which they were

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00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: severely abused. Being raped wasn't always seen as a sign

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00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: that you were a victim and will take care of you.

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00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: They were tainted, so everything they went through shouldn't be minimized.

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00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: China in particular shouldn't be forgotten. Their government and people

892
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: have been extremely active in pushing for apologies and some

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00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: sign that they might not repeat the same acts if

894
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: given the chance. Korea's government has let us down, and

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00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: China's government has continued to pursue numerous issues. I'm not

896
00:58:58,040 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: trying to be harsh, and I love all of your

897
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: podcast us. I found time and again that your research

898
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: on numerous Asian issues has been extremely well done. This

899
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: just happens to be a particularly sore spot that isn't

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00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: just a problem for former quote unquote comfort women. A

901
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: term that really needs to die anyway. It was created

902
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: by Japan specifically to try to tone down the horrific

903
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: nature of what was done to them. So thank you

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Speaker 1: for writing in Lena, and thanks to everybody who's written

905
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: into us. Mom Stabbitt, how suffwork dot Com is where

906
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: you can send your letters and thrillingks all of our

907
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,

908
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: and podcasts with our sources so you can learn more

909
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 1: about women and political campaigns. Head on over to stuff

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00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com. For more on this

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00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works dot

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00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: com