1 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Diversion audio. A note this episode contains mature content and 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: description of violence that may be disturbing for some listeners. 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: Please take care and listening. This is episode two of 4 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: a two part mini series. If you haven't listened to 5 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: episode one of The Murder Factory, I'd recommend you press pause, 6 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: go listen to last week's episode, and then come on 7 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: back here because episode one is crucial for understanding this case. 8 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 1: But this finale is where we get to meet some 9 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: incredible characters and watch them bring a monster to justice. 10 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: Doctor Arthur Wolfe is performing an autopsy on a disinterred 11 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: cadaver that is two years old. It's a secret autopsy, 12 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: so the body has been exhumed and carried to a 13 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: tool shed where lanterns have been lit to guide his observations. 14 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: The first thing Arthur notices is the smell. There isn't one, 15 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: and there should be. Second, he notes the face is 16 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: turning brown and almost soapy looking. This sheen is what 17 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: Arthur calls gravewax, and it forms as a part of 18 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: decomposition on a body's forehead and neck. Arthur cuts open 19 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: the intact clothing with curved steel shears. Some decomposed flesh 20 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: clings to the fabric as he peels it back. There 21 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: are no boils or pock marks on the body's skin. 22 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: He moves through the examination, cutting through breastbone and ribs 23 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: with plierlike shears to view the abdominal organs. Everything looks 24 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: standard until he reaches the stomach. It's hugely distended, like 25 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: a blown up balloon. That might make sense in a 26 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: person who died days before and might still be holding 27 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: gas in their stomach, but in a two year old cadaver, 28 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: it's bizarre. The stomach is so inflated that as soon 29 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: as Arthur releases some of the surrounding pressure, it kind 30 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: of pops out of place. Something is preserving this organ 31 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: in particular. Arthur ties off the stomach to keep it distended, 32 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: and he puts it in a jar to as just 33 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: what chemical is preserving it. Even after testing, he'll keep 34 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: the stomach for evidence. Welcome to the greatest true crime 35 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: stories ever told. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer. I'm a writer 36 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: of true crime, which means I live inside the research wormhole. 37 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: I'm constantly reading about crime, and I'm always focused on 38 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: the people behind the headlines by looking at their experiences 39 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: I'm interested in what we can learn about all of us. 40 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: That's what I explore here every week when I dig 41 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: into crimes where a woman is not just a victim. 42 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: She might be the detective, the lawyer, the witness, the coroner, criminal, 43 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: or a combination of those roles. As you probably already know, 44 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: women can do anything. Today's episode is the conclusion of 45 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: our two part miniseries The Murder Factory. Last week, we 46 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: delved into the world of Archer House and the horrible 47 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: pattern of secrets and death that infected it. This week, 48 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: we close in on the culprit with the help of 49 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: an intrepid cast of determined investigators. Listen to how they 50 00:04:42,080 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: circled in after the break. Last episode, we were in Windsor, Connecticut, 51 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: and I introduced you to a woman named Amy Archer Gilligan. 52 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: She was the twice widowed matron and owner of the 53 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: Archer Home, the nursing home under suspicion. You might remember 54 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: that she was accused of killing some of her quote inmates. 55 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: I want to take a minute and remind ourselves that 56 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: what Amy offered was not hospice care. It was not 57 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: end of life care. What the Archer Home offered was 58 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: more like today's retirement community. Some of the her residents 59 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: were as young as their late fifties. One of her 60 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: residents was young enough for her, a woman in her 61 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: thirties or forties, to marry. And these were not sick people, 62 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: at least not before they arrived at the Archer Home. 63 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: What it was was a boarding house, mostly for people 64 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: who were still mobile and mentally cogent, but who had retired. 65 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: They maybe couldn't quite afford to live alone anymore, or 66 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: maybe they just didn't want to keep their own house anymore. 67 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: I mean, housework today can get out of control. Imagine 68 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: keeping a house before there were vacuums and dishwashers and 69 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: laundry machines. That's a hard pass, even for me, and 70 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: I'm a long way from retirement. Plus add that hand 71 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: done housework to some in laws who are always underfoot 72 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: and folding my shit the wrong way is frustrating just 73 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: thinking about it, even with modern appliances. I mean, how 74 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: could you throw every color in the machine on a 75 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: cold wash, normal setting and expect it to get clean? 76 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: Did you just put my bra in the dryer? How 77 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: dare you? I would have been lining up to go 78 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: to Amy's too. You pay a small fee and she 79 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: takes care of meals, laundry, housework, and doctor visits. You 80 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: mean I never have to argue a medical bill on 81 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: hold for forty minutes while this same lionel Richie Knockoff 82 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: music plays on Loop signed. My ass up. My point 83 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: is a lot was different one hundred and ten years ago, 84 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: but a lot is also the same, which brings me 85 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: to our most important point of similarity. Even in nineteen fourteen, 86 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: with pretty primitive medical science, the death rate at Amy's 87 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: house was too high. These were people looking down deaths 88 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: gaping maw. They had decades left to really drive home 89 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: this point. The death rate at the Archer home outnumbered 90 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: the rate of other comparative nursing homes in the state 91 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: six times over last week, I also introduced you to 92 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: a man named Franklin Andrews. Franklin was one of Amy's residents, 93 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: and he'd been there for just over a year when 94 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: we left him. He stayed with a roommate in the 95 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: only two bedroom at the Archer House, and he'd been 96 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: watching the health of his fellow residence as the death 97 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: toll grew. He never accused Amy of anything but According 98 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: to m William Phelps's book The Devil's Rooming House, he 99 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,599 Speaker 1: noticed the frequent fast on set deaths, and he inferred 100 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: that Amy had something to do with him, especially after 101 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: Franklin lost a close friend at the home that was 102 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: the able bodied fifty seven year old Michael Gilligan. Michael 103 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: had also been married to Amy, despite being twenty years 104 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: older than she was. Michael had also signed his last 105 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: will and testament leaving everything to Amy, just thirty six 106 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: hours before he died. You might also remember how I 107 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: really emphasized how healthy Franklin was. Despite having a disability 108 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: that made him limp and being treated for rheumatism, he 109 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: didn't have any major illnesses. Most notably, Franklin did not 110 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: have heart disease, he did not have pneumonia, and he 111 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: did not have indigestion. Those were the three different causes 112 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: of death that Amy Archer Gilligan, and the doctor she 113 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: hired offered as causes of Michael's death. So Franklin's new 114 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: roommate Seth Ramsey, whom they called Ramsey, was surprised when 115 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: he woke early in the morning to Franklin's moans, his 116 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: complaints of burning in the pit of his stomach. Ramsey 117 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: was even more surprised when Franklin projectile vomited all over himself. 118 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: Ramsey ran straight to Amy and told her to call 119 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: the doctor. Ramsey himself couldn't stand the sight or smell 120 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: of his roommate's sickness and his Vomit was weird too, 121 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: It contained mucus and bile, and it had a coffee 122 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: ground appearance. Ramsey walked outside to get some fresh air. 123 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: He thought if he met the doctor outside when he arrived, 124 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: he could brief him on what was happening. That way, 125 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: when he got to their room, he could snap into 126 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: action right away. Ramsey waited and waited, but the doctor 127 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: never came. Ramsey watched as Franklin vomited and dry heaved 128 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: all day. It was tortuous. He couldn't keep down any 129 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: fluids or food. Doctor Howard King finally showed up in 130 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: the evening, half a day after Franklin got sick, at 131 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: which point Franklin was unconscious and clearly struggling to breathe. 132 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: Doctor King had never treated Franklin for anything before. He 133 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: had been on Amy's payroll for four years. Though, Doctor 134 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: King said Franklin suffered quote with what appeared to be 135 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: acute indigestion. He prescribed the same nausea tablet of bismuth 136 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: and cocaine that he had been prescribing at the Archer 137 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: home for some time, because Franklin was far from the 138 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: first one to complain about these exact symptoms. Then the 139 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: doctor left. At this point in the story, I was thinking, 140 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: either this doctor is extremely stupid, or he's been on 141 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: the payroll in more ways than one. That evening, Amy 142 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: called Franklin's sister, Nellie. She told her that Franklin was 143 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: sick and she wasn't sure he was going to get better. 144 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: Nelly was shocked. She'd spoken to Franklin less than twenty 145 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 1: four hours ago and he had been fine. He had 146 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: just painted offense and he was about to cut the 147 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: lawn and break some leaves. When she asked what was wrong, 148 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: Amy said the boils on his neck were troubling him. 149 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: Nellie said Franklin didn't have any boils his neck, but 150 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: when Amy insisted that he was very sick, Nellie said 151 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: she was coming up from Hartford tonight. Amy stopped her 152 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: she'd handle it. Nellie just told Amy to spare no 153 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: expense and she'd be up first thing in the morning. 154 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: Amy did call doctor King back, but by the time 155 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: he arrived around nine pm, he found Amy standing bedside 156 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: and he saw Franklin quote practically dead. He said later, 157 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: there was nothing I could do for him. Franklin drew 158 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: his last breath around an hour later. On May twenty ninth, 159 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen, Doctor King cited the primary cause of death 160 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: as gastric ulcers. According to this, after sixty years of 161 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: zero stomach problems, Franklin Andrews died of gastric ulcers. Amy 162 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: immediately moved Franklin's roommate Ramsey into another room. She started 163 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: preparing the double room for her new clients, a couple 164 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: named Lauren and Alice Goudi. Then she ordered Franklin's body 165 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: to be removed and embalmed immediately. When Nelly arrived the 166 00:14:33,640 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: next morning, as promised, her brother was gone. Franklin's sister, 167 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: Nellie Pierce, arrived in Windsor at seven o'clock the morning 168 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: after Franklin died. She rushed into the Archer house to 169 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: find Amy with doctor King and started shouting questions, how 170 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: long had he been sick, what was the cause? Of death. 171 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: How could this have happened? All Amy managed to do 172 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: in response was mumble that Franklin had been painting offense 173 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: the day before he got sick, and that was exactly 174 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: the point Nelly had been trying to make. Didn't that 175 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: mean he was fine? How had this happened? Amy finally 176 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: started talking. She said that it was all very shocking. 177 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: Franklin had been absolutely fine, as Nellie was saying. He 178 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: actually didn't say he felt any pain until about ten 179 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: minutes before he died. In fact, he said she shouldn't 180 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: even call Nellie because he thought he'd get better. He 181 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: didn't want to worry his sister. Now, as Nellie listened 182 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: to all of this, she felt enraged. This was all lies. 183 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: It had to be. It just didn't make any sense. Plus, 184 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: she'd been reading Franklin's letters, she knew that he was 185 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: suspicious of Amy. There was foul play here. Amy was involved, 186 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: and doctor King had to be too. Even if Amy 187 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: was pulling the strings, the doctor should have detected the 188 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: cause of death, and now he was just standing there 189 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: listening to this garbage. So she responded to Amy simply 190 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: and clearly, she wanted to see the body. Amy replied 191 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: that unfortunately, Franklin's body was at Smith and Son's funeral 192 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: home in Hartford. She never kept bodies in the house 193 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: after a death. That's when Nellie decided, if Franklin wasn't 194 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: here to hold Amy accountable, Nellie would do it her 195 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: damn self. In the following two days, Nellie made two 196 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: important trips. She went to see her brother's body, and 197 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: she went to the offices of the Hartford Current newspaper. 198 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: When she arrived, Nellie said she wanted to report a murder. 199 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: That's when she learned that the newspaper already had two 200 00:17:43,320 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: reporters investigating Amy Archer. Gilligan, Connecticut, had only just begun 201 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: a state run police department. It was in very early stages. 202 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: One fun example of the department's newness was that all 203 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: the police were playing clothes officers at the time because 204 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: they were a skeleton crew. The local police relied on 205 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: reporters to help with investigations by sharing their findings, and 206 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: of course, the police would reciprocate by giving those journalists 207 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: the scoop when it was time. If you were like 208 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: me wondering why Nellie went to the newspaper instead of 209 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: the police, it's because the newspaper basically was part of 210 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: the police force. To their credit, as Nellie discovered, Amy 211 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: had been on the radar of these local journalists for 212 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: a long time. In fact, they'd been keeping an eye 213 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: on her since the very first time she and James, 214 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: her first husband, were sued by a former resident and 215 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: their family. But by the time nell got to their office, 216 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: they were already ramping up from Amy's on our radar 217 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: to a serious investigation. They were just waiting on hard 218 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: evidence to break the news. Nelling must have had mixed 219 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: feelings when she realized this. Investigators had known something was 220 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: going on and they hadn't stopped it in time to 221 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: save Franklin's life, not to mention all these other lives. Still, 222 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: she wasn't about to let her grief and what ifs 223 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: stop her from helping bring down a killer. She started 224 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: looking for evidence herself. To speed things along. She and 225 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: her siblings combed through Franklin's things. They found a letter 226 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: to him from Amy. It was dated just days before 227 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: his death. In it, Amy asked Franklin for a loan, 228 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: Apparently Franklin had refused. To Nelly, this looked like as 229 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: good a motive as any, but she dug further, scouring 230 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: Franklin's financial records. That's when she saw that Franklin had 231 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: apparently already given Amy alone, and that an additional five 232 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: hundred dollars was missing from his bank account. That's around 233 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars in today's money. Nellie was livid Amy 234 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: had been using Franklin like a cash cow and then 235 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: killed him as soon as he resisted. Perhaps thinking about 236 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: the fact that investigators had so far failed to take 237 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: this woman down, Nellie had an idea. She would do 238 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: this her own way and make Amy pay for this somehow, 239 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: either pay for it literally, she lawyered up. Her attorney 240 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: threatened Amy with a lawsuit in addition to a quote 241 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: bitter and humiliating public scandal that would eventually follow, all 242 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: of which could be avoided if Amy paid back the 243 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: money she rightfully owed Franklin's family. It worked. Amy caved. 244 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: She agreed to pay up, but even then it still 245 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: took Nelly and her family forever to squeeze the money 246 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: out of her. In the meantime, Amy sent several long, hateful, 247 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: curse filled letters to the Andrews family. They're as trolling 248 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, with curses as wild as this one. 249 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: I will pray this morning that Almighty God, who knows 250 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: how you and yours tried to destroy my home, may 251 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: the curse of God come down on each one of 252 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: you and punish you by doing for you what you 253 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: never had the slightest cause to try to do to us. 254 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: You know, the kind of desperate redirection a con artist 255 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: uses to divert attention. But in the meantime, while Nellie 256 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: pursued her own justice, the journalists hadn't given up on 257 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: getting Amy behind bars. The journalists understood Nellie's frustrations with 258 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: their timeline because they knew they had to get Amy 259 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: out of the game asap too, so they took all 260 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: their research on the case to the Superintendent of the 261 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: Connecticut State Police, Thomas Egan. Egan was baffled. He asked 262 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: the journalists, are you telling me that forty Archer inmates 263 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: have been murdered. They answered that it probably wasn't all 264 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,959 Speaker 1: forty of them. If they went on probabilities and averages, 265 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: five of these people probably died of natural causes, But 266 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: that's still left thirty five murders. Egan was skeptical He 267 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: just couldn't wrap his mind around how this was possible, 268 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: but he listened as the journalists went through their research 269 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: piece by piece. It wasn't just the deaths. It was 270 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: the abruptness of the deaths, the spiriting away of the 271 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: bodies in the night, the complete ineptitude of the one 272 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: doctor Amy always called. Egan took it all in and 273 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: journalists waited, and then Egan nodded. This idea had legs. 274 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: He was going to pursue the lead. Egan enlisted the 275 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,239 Speaker 1: help of Hugh Alcorn, the state's attorney, and Alcorn was 276 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: just hesitant. If they were accusing a woman of killing 277 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: forty people, they needed more evidence than what the journalists 278 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: had collected. They only had one shot to bring justice 279 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: to forty people. In fact, that number was low. In 280 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: the end, the tally would land at fifty three people 281 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: murdered in the Archer house. They had to find that evidence. 282 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: So the police superintendent and the state's attorney decided to 283 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 1: try to beat Amy Archer Gilligan at her own game. 284 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: This is when the state police called on one bad bitch, 285 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: Zola Bennett. I love that name. That should be in 286 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: baby books for twenty twenty three for sure. Zola was 287 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: in her late fifties or early sixties, and she had 288 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: been working for the Connecticut State Police as an undercover 289 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: private investigator for several years. The department sent Zola over 290 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: to Amy's to ask for a room to rent. Sola said, 291 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: I'm a wealthy, friendless widow. There's a bit on the 292 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: nose if you ask me. But Amy and her write in. 293 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: Sola then watched from the inside as Alice Goudi, one 294 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: of the couple who had taken Franklin's former room, died 295 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: the exact same way that he had. Sola also interviewed 296 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: other residents when Amy wasn't around, and she snooped through 297 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: documents like letters, diaries, and real estate papers. And she 298 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: forwarded everything she found back to the State Police. And 299 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: she was the one who told them to interview another 300 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: bad bitch. Doctor Emma Thompson Alice Goudi's primary doctor, because 301 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: Alice Goudi, unlike most of Amy's residents, didn't use doctor King. 302 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: Doctor Thompson noted that Alice Goudi had strange symptoms, including 303 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: coldness and rigidity in her extremities. She had a feeling 304 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: of constriction in the throat, it was difficult for her 305 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: to swallow. Then her stool became watery, it looked like 306 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: rice water. And finally there was the vomit, the liquid 307 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: mixture of mucus bile, and that coffee ground appearance. Doctor 308 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: Thompson knew that when acted upon by gastric fluid, blood 309 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: in the stomach almost always yields a coffee ground appearance. 310 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,479 Speaker 1: It manifests in other symptoms as well, sometimes resembling a hemorrhage. 311 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: A person can become weak, dizzy, pale, and shrunken, their 312 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: head hurts, they break out in a cold sweat. That's 313 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: what doctor Emma Thompson remembered when she saw Alice Goudy, 314 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: and she knew that the most likely cause of all 315 00:26:53,840 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: this was poison, specifically arsonal That's what doctor Thompson told 316 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: the state police, who noted that Alice's symptoms were very 317 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: similar to the ones noted in the other Archer Home residents. 318 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: It was time to get those bodies out of the ground. 319 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: It was nearly two years after Franklin Andrew's death before 320 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: his body got the autopsy it deserved. Part of that 321 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: time was taken up with Zola Bennett's investigation at the 322 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: Archer House. Part of it was likely due to the 323 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: process of collecting the correct paperwork to exhume the body, 324 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: but by May nineteen sixteen, investigators were ready. They just 325 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: needed the right person to examine the two year old corpse. 326 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: The state's attorney, Hugh Alcorn, called doctor Arthur Wolfe. Doctor 327 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: Wolfe had a long list of credentials that included training 328 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: as a physician in Germany and France, in education at 329 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: Bellevue Hospital Medical College in New York, and he had 330 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: worked at Saint Francis Hospital in Hartford for twenty one years. 331 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: But doctor Wolfe's most important accolade was that he also 332 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: had thirty five years of courtroom experience. A lot of 333 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: the cases he testified in were murder cases, and a 334 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: lot of those cases were poisoning cases. He was the 335 00:28:53,440 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: guy to avoid any press leaks. State officials set doctor 336 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: wolf up to conduct the examination in a tool shed 337 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: under the cover of night. When he arrived, the stage 338 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: had been set for him, and he conducted the autopsy 339 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: with the formality it deserved, moving over the grave wax 340 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: of Franklin's face to observe that, as Nellie Pierce had said, 341 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: Franklin did not have any boils, if you remember, that's 342 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: what Amy told Nelly her brother had died. Of Of course, 343 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: Amy had mentioned several different causes of death, but doctor 344 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: Wolf ruled that one out easily when he cut open 345 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: the torso. Doctor Wolf did note the signs of Franklin's rheumatism. 346 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: His lungs, although healthy, thereby ruling out pneumonia, adhered slightly 347 00:29:54,120 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: to the chest wall. So far, everything was normal. His 348 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: heart seemed normal too, normal size, no blockages, no tears, 349 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: no trauma. When doctor Wolf cut into it, though, a 350 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: quote peculiar and penetrating odor from the body diffused itself 351 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: through the room. It smelled pungent, vinegary unique. But doctor 352 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: Wolf knew that smell arsenic, and that wasn't the smoking 353 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: gun you'd think it would be. At the time, many 354 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: undertakers used an arsenic based embalming fluid. Some people speculated 355 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: that was one reason why Amy insisted the people who 356 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: died at the Archer home were immediately embalmed. Still, it 357 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: was odd that the arsenic odor was coming from inside 358 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: Franklin's heart. Meanwhile, Franklin's body didn't seem to be emitting 359 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: any sense of decomposition at all, which was very odd 360 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: for a two year old corpse, unless it had been 361 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:24,959 Speaker 1: poisoned by arsenic. Doctor Wolf kept moving. It seemed like 362 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: all of Franklin's organs had been faultlessly preserved, as if 363 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: they'd been buried two days ago. Franklin's liver, intestines, and 364 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: fat were all in flawless condition. Then he arrived at 365 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: Franklin's stomach, and the condition he found it in was 366 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: really out of the ordinary. It was distended like a 367 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: balloon full of gas. Doctor Wolf removed the organ. This 368 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: was evidence because all of these perfectly preserved organs, and 369 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: especially that distended stomach confirmed for doctor Wolfe exactly what 370 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: doctor Thompson had suspected based on Alice Goudi's symptoms. This 371 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: was the work of Arsenic. The state ordered the exhumation 372 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: for four other potential victims in a matter of days. 373 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: The state police were sure of five murders, and they 374 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: had two suspects, doctor Arthur King and Amy Archer Gilligan. 375 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: While it was hard to believe either of them was 376 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: capable of such atrocities, the investigators went after doctor King first. 377 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: I mean, not only was he a man, but he 378 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: was a doctor, surely he was more likely to be 379 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: responsible for these murders. Once reporters got wind of this, 380 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: they stampeded the doctor's front porch looking for comment. Doctor 381 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: King said no, he shouted, there was nothing unusual about 382 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: Andrew's death. True, he appeared a well man, but he 383 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: had a history of ulcers. King also said that Franklin 384 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: likely severely overtaxed his stomach during dinner, which caused a 385 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: violent recurrence and put too great a strain on his heart. Basically, 386 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: doctor King said that Franklin andrews ate himself to death. 387 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: Even at the turn of the century. That diagnosis was preposterous. 388 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: An educated person would never buy it. A reporter fed 389 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: doctor King the next question, what about poison? Doctor King yelled, ridiculous, 390 00:33:54,440 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: I have noticed the symptoms. None of this made doctor 391 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: King sound particularly clever, but it didn't make him sound 392 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: particularly innocent either. Investigators were still suspicious of him, and 393 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 1: I am too. I'm actually going to ask em William 394 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: Phelps for his thoughts on it in our interview, which, 395 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: by the way, stick around for that. But the fact is, 396 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: as investigators started thinking about the motive, Amy had far 397 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: more motive to set this deadly plot in motion than 398 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: doctor King did, whether or not Doctor King participated, so 399 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: investigators ended up refocusing on Amy. Journalists checked out purchases 400 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: at the local drug store. They saw that although Amy 401 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: hadn't purchased much arsenic herself, she had sent her residence 402 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: to purchase it for her. That meant yes, she sent 403 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: her victims to buy their own murder weapon. All counted, 404 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy's residents purchased a total of two pounds of arsenic. 405 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: That's enough to kill thousands of people. When Franklin andrews 406 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: Organs officially tested positive for arsenic, as expected, investigators had 407 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: their last bit of concrete evidence they needed to move in, 408 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: and they made Amy's purp walk a full spectacle for 409 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: the first time in the state. Automobiles aided the arrest. 410 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: Two large black pope cars waited outside the County building, 411 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: engines running to arrest Amy. Everyone turned out to see 412 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: what was going on. When investigators arrived at the Archer home, 413 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: Amy invited them in, and this quote's recorded in historical 414 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: documents Phelps found when researching the Devil's Rooming House. Amy 415 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: said to the cops, I know of the gossip about 416 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: me and of the home that has been going around Windsor, 417 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: and I am indeed glad you have come. Okay girl. 418 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: They told her that anything she said could be used 419 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: against her in court, and she said all right, before 420 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: proceeding to answer a bunch of questions. After an hour 421 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: of questioning, investigators told Amy she was charged with the 422 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: murder of Franklin Andrews by poisoning, and they took her 423 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: to the town hall. The motorcade that followed her there 424 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: was spectacular. While Amy was booked and further questioned, police 425 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: searched the Archer home for evidence. The search yielded several contracts, 426 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: despite Amy saying she did destroyed the contracts after her 427 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: tenant's deaths. They also found bottles of mislabeled fluids, letters, notebooks, 428 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: and bank records. A crowd watched while officials carried boxes 429 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: of evidence out the front door and into waiting cars. 430 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: Speaking of finding evidence, doctor Arthur Wolfe had also examined 431 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: Michael Gilligan's corpse. His stomach had enough arsenic in it 432 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 1: to kill five men his size. Amy was also accused 433 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: of killing her first husband, James Archer. His symptoms were 434 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 1: consistent with arsenic poisoning. Two while she awaited trial. The prosecution, 435 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: led by States Attorney Hugh Alcorn, brought offenses. In addition 436 00:37:54,600 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: to killing five residents and two husbands, Amy had violated 437 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: the law by removing a dead body from any home 438 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: without a permit. Transporting the body over state lines was 439 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: another offense Amy had committed both. Meanwhile, Amy spoke out 440 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: about her innocence, and doctor King rallied for her too. 441 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,919 Speaker 1: While Amy waited in jail, King went off and he 442 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: looked stupid doing it. One theory he presented was that 443 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: Franklin Andrew's body quote could have been twice exhumed. He 444 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: claimed that someone could have already dug up the body 445 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: and planted the arsenic on the cadaver. A doctor said 446 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: that articles appeared in newspapers that noted King was not 447 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: only employed as the in house physician at the Archer home, 448 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: but he was the medical examiner for the town as well. 449 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: So the man who treated Amy's residence was also assigning 450 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: reasons for their deaths. In one later interview, King finally 451 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: questioned his own judgment, saying that maybe he should have 452 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: paid closer attention. He admitted that his diagnosis of Franklin 453 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: Andrew's death as the result of gastric ulcers could have 454 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: been incorrect, and the real cause could have been arsenic poisoning. 455 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: The symptoms might have looked similar. He told the interviewer, quote, 456 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: maybe I ought to have analyzed the contents of the stomach, 457 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 1: but I certainly did not suspect that there was anything wrong. 458 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: There was nothing suspicious to me about the death, and 459 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: no reason why I should have gone any further with 460 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: the examination. Did you ever hear of death by arsenic 461 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: being discovered as such immediately after death? I never did. 462 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: But neither doctor King's expres uses nor his regrets made 463 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: any difference for Amy. In September of nineteen sixteen, the 464 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: grand jury charged Amy Archer Gilligan with five counts of 465 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: first degree murder. These five victims, who were only a 466 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: small portion of the victims she actually killed, were Franklin, Andrews, 467 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: Alice Goudie, Michael Gilligan, Charles Smith, and maud Lynch. When 468 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: the trial commenced, the courtroom was standing room only. Many 469 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 1: witnesses testified against Amy. Frank Smith, undertaker at Amy's funeral 470 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: parlor of choice, testified that none of the Red Falcon 471 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: Brand embalming fluid he used ever contained arsenic, and he 472 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: said that he always had permits to remove a body 473 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, except for Franklin, Andrews, 474 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: and Alice Goudy. Doctor Wolf spent two full days explaining 475 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: his findings and how he reached his conclusions that all 476 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: five exhumed bodies had died by arsenic poisoning. Even Franklin's 477 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: banker took the stand. He entered all the bank account 478 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: records as evidence and verified the transactions. The all male jury, 479 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: because women could not sit on jurys in most states 480 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: until nineteen seventeen, soon reached a verdict. The judge said, 481 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: Amy Archer Gilligan is guilty of the crime of murder 482 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: in the first degree. She is remanded to the custody 483 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: of the Sheriff of Hartford County, and that she be 484 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: conveyed by him to the Connecticut State Prison at Weathersfield, 485 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: And that upon said sixth day of November nine, nineteen seventeen, 486 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 1: before the hour of sunrise, within the walls of said prison, 487 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 1: by warden of said prison, she be hung by the 488 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: neck until she is dead. Amy's lawyers tried to appeal 489 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: with an insanity plea. They claimed she was addicted to morphine. 490 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: That may well have been true after looking at the 491 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: records of her druggist, but the verdict was not overturned. 492 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: She was granted a different sentence. Rather than being executed 493 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: by hanging, she would live for fifty years in a 494 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 1: prison for the criminally insane. I always try to leave 495 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 1: these stories with a bit of reflection. For me, the 496 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: biggest takeaway from this case of multiple murders is the 497 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: importance of looking out for the vulnerable. Until this series 498 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,359 Speaker 1: of horrific murders, private sector homes for the elderly had 499 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: no one watching them, not on a local level or 500 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: anything higher. Anyone not acting right really only got punished 501 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: if a resident's family member hired an attorney or made 502 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: a complaint. There was no watchful oversight. That meant it 503 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: had to be bad enough for a resident to snitch 504 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: out their primary caregiver. Think about how bad that would 505 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: have to be. It also required that the residents have 506 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,239 Speaker 1: a family member to tell their problems to to advocate 507 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:32,399 Speaker 1: for them, and that wasn't always the case. But thank 508 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,839 Speaker 1: god for Nelly Peers Right. She was Franklin's sister and 509 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: she was just not having it. And thanks to the 510 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: journalists and to Zola Bennett and to doctor Emma Thompson, 511 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: a lot of badass people looked out for justice in 512 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: this case, and a lot of them were badass women. 513 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 1: So I think the takeaway here is twofold. One thankfully 514 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: private sector nursing homes are regulated now, and two, be 515 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: on the side of the badasses who fight for the truth, 516 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 1: whether that's as an investigator like so many people in 517 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: this story, or in whatever it is. That's your walk 518 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: of life, and that's how I think of the writer 519 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: m William Phelps, author of The Devil's Rooming House, who 520 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: uncovered so much truth while writing this book. I'm so 521 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: lucky to have the opportunity to ask him a few 522 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: more questions about this case. That's right after the break 523 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: stay with us, Oh, Matthew, I'm so happy to talk 524 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: to you about The Devil's Rooming House. Thank you so 525 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 1: much for coming to talk to me. I wanted to 526 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: ask you first what drew you to Amy Archer Gilligan 527 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: in particular. 528 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 2: Well, I had my eye on the Amy Archer Gilligan's 529 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 2: story for many years. I mean, I grew up as 530 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 2: a kid, maybe four miles from the house. It wasn't 531 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,879 Speaker 2: a talked about story then. But what got me interested 532 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 2: in it was I was writing a lot of contemporary 533 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 2: true crime and I wanted to do an historical true 534 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 2: crime book. And the fact that the Amy Archer Gilligan's 535 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,800 Speaker 2: story is the true basis for the famous play Arsenic 536 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 2: and Old Lace really drew me to it. The thing 537 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 2: that worried me was why hadn't a book been done 538 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 2: on it already? As a journalist, that always worries me. 539 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 2: So the first inclination is, oh, there's not enough research available. 540 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 2: So I began to look into that. So I started 541 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 2: to poke around, and I knew that the trial was 542 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 2: a huge spectacle in Hartford, Connecticut at the time, at 543 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 2: the turn of the century when it happened. So the 544 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 2: first thing I did was went to the Connecticut Historical 545 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 2: Society and they were like, we don't know, we don't 546 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 2: have much, you know, let's see. So that process started, 547 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,799 Speaker 2: and I'll never forget it took some time, but they 548 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 2: poked around and in the library itself was a bunch 549 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 2: of books about Connecticut historical crimes, et cetera. But within 550 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 2: that were like these encyclopedia type of books that someone 551 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 2: had transcribed all of the trial transcripts and kind of 552 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,840 Speaker 2: put it in a book form, but it wasn't printed. 553 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 2: It was like one book. So I was able to 554 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 2: get hold of that. But what else I found, which 555 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 2: I found very interesting, was in the basement in the vault, 556 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 2: they had more Amy Archer Gilligan research. It was in 557 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 2: a box and the boxes had all these scrolls in 558 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 2: them of paper, and around the paper was a charcoal. 559 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 2: There was a band of charcoal around the paper, which 560 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 2: I thought was odd, and there was charcoal bits all 561 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 2: in the box. Well, come to find out, old rubber 562 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 2: bands turned into charcoal after a period of time. So 563 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,880 Speaker 2: what that told me was very significant. It told me 564 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,400 Speaker 2: no one had looked at those documents, no one looked 565 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 2: at it, no one had looked at him. So yeah, 566 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,279 Speaker 2: that fired me up. And then I, uh, just you know, 567 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 2: started the journey from there. 568 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: Well I love that story so much, not only because 569 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: it was successful, but also because you got to go 570 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 1: like down into the library, like the bowels of the library, 571 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,440 Speaker 1: which sounds so cool, and it's like things are like 572 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: ossifying and stuff. Yeah on the form, So oh that's 573 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: so cool. Yeah. Wow, So you had a lot of 574 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:56,720 Speaker 1: material to sift through. 575 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean within the trial document mints were forensic reports, 576 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:09,479 Speaker 2: testimony from early forensic scientists, all the law enforcement, Amy Archer, 577 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 2: Gilligan herself. So I was able to bring that book 578 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,319 Speaker 2: to life. I mean there it was the trial. The 579 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,239 Speaker 2: whole story was right there. You know. 580 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's incredible. I'm sure that there were a lot 581 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,080 Speaker 1: of surprises when you were reading that, But is there 582 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: one that kind of jumped out at us, like because 583 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,960 Speaker 1: of the time period of it being bizarre and like 584 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 1: sticking with you, is there anything like that? 585 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,360 Speaker 2: I Mean what was striking in the transcripts were when 586 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 2: law enforcements was explaining how they would exhume bodies in 587 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 2: the middle of the night, bring the body to a 588 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,719 Speaker 2: tool shed in the cemetery, open the body up, and 589 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,319 Speaker 2: test it for arsenic right there. And it was a 590 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 2: simple test. I mean you could almost tell someone was 591 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,280 Speaker 2: murdered by arsenic just by opening them up and seeing 592 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,160 Speaker 2: their stomach kind of bloated. So, yeah, they did autopsies 593 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 2: right there on site. That was pretty bizarre, but I 594 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 2: understood it. 595 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 1: That's such a great scene. I mean, I know, it's 596 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 1: not a scene scene. It's like it's it happened right, 597 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 1: but like it sticks with you. Yeah. On the topic 598 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:17,280 Speaker 1: of writing somewhat narratives true crime and historical true crime, 599 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,239 Speaker 1: I also love to write narrative true crime, and I 600 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,239 Speaker 1: feel like what in historical as well? And I feel 601 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 1: like the question that I get asked so often is 602 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: like the dialogue, like how do you know they said that? 603 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: Or how do you what kind of artistic license went 604 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 1: into it? What's your approach to writing the dialogue? 605 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,200 Speaker 2: Well, I mean dialogue is dialogue that said. You know, 606 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 2: I'm not making it up. I'm just looking at court documents. 607 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:46,120 Speaker 2: I'm looking at interviews people gave, and during interviews people 608 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 2: will say, well, when she approached me, she said dot 609 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 2: dot dot, So that's dialogue, you know. But a lot 610 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:58,880 Speaker 2: of times dialogue are quotes from someone on the stand 611 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 2: who's given testimony, or something that's said in a police report. 612 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 2: You know. I walked up to the counter and I said, hey, 613 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 2: give me all your money, you know, so that turns 614 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 2: into dialogue. I don't use any artistic license at all. 615 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,040 Speaker 2: I spend a tremendous amount of time looking digging. 616 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,360 Speaker 1: So speaking of the dialogue, and some of the characters 617 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,680 Speaker 1: and the actual people in this book. Doctor King, the 618 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: one that was on the payroll at the Archer Home, 619 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,400 Speaker 1: he seems so fishy to me the whole time. I 620 00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:32,719 Speaker 1: was like, he's in on it. He has to be 621 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: in on it. 622 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 2: Of course he was, and I just of. 623 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 1: Course he was right. 624 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was being bought and paid for. I mean 625 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 2: he was the town corner. Yeah, yeah, he was the 626 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 2: town corner and the doctor in town. So Amy employed 627 00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 2: him as the doctor for the residence of the Elderly Home. 628 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,799 Speaker 2: So he would come over there and diagnose people, and 629 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,920 Speaker 2: when somebody died, he would pronounce their death and sign 630 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,439 Speaker 2: off on the death certificate. So she was paying him 631 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,279 Speaker 2: already to come over right, So of course he knew 632 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 2: what was going on. He had to know what was 633 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:12,960 Speaker 2: going on, and he turned a blind eye to it. 634 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,799 Speaker 2: He should have been charged himself in some respects. 635 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,120 Speaker 1: Okay, So switching gears a little bit. You've gone from 636 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,440 Speaker 1: writing true crime to working in true crime audio as well, 637 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: and what has that been like the transition are do 638 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:31,560 Speaker 1: you like the differences in the storytelling aspect? How do 639 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:32,560 Speaker 1: you approach the research? 640 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I've kind of prepared for this in 641 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,400 Speaker 2: the way that I've written books for twenty two years. 642 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 2: I've done television for twenty two years, written for television, 643 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 2: produced documentaries, So bringing the two together for podcasting, for me, 644 00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,320 Speaker 2: it was a challenge, but it was a good challenge. 645 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:55,800 Speaker 2: It allows me to dig deeper into stories than I 646 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,840 Speaker 2: would for television. It allows actual people, their voices to 647 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,800 Speaker 2: be heard, right, and I love the investigative part of it. 648 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 2: It's just a new form for me to tell these 649 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:11,280 Speaker 2: stories of victims and their families. And now I've really 650 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 2: gotten into missing people more, trying to offer new information 651 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,919 Speaker 2: to cases and books. You can't really go down that road. 652 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,919 Speaker 2: Book editors want a beginning, middle, and end. With podcasting, 653 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 2: certainly you can bring people along for the journey. 654 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. I like that. It seems like, not necessarily that 655 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: podcasting is more forgiving, but you can continue to add 656 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: to the story, right whereas right once it's in writing, 657 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:39,239 Speaker 1: it's out there. 658 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,480 Speaker 2: Like that's a great point. I can update my podcasts 659 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,960 Speaker 2: than I have at any time. I can add another 660 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 2: bonus episode or add another episode to a narrative season, 661 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 2: So I like the format a lot. I just started 662 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,200 Speaker 2: full time on a new season of Paper Ghosts. So 663 00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,960 Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to Paper Ghosts season four. I'm heading 664 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,240 Speaker 2: out in a couple of week on a research trip. 665 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,200 Speaker 1: Actually, were you headed? What are you going to do? 666 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:04,600 Speaker 1: That was my next question is what are you going 667 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,920 Speaker 1: to do next? Or can you tell me is a secret? 668 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,120 Speaker 2: I can say that I'm heading out to the Ozarks, okay, 669 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:12,160 Speaker 2: and I'll leave it at that. 670 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:17,319 Speaker 1: Okay, it sounds good. My last question is what do 671 00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: you want to leave us with? Like, what's our biggest 672 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:22,279 Speaker 1: takeaway from talking about Amy Archer Gilligan. What do you 673 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 1: want your readers of this story, listeners of our podcast 674 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:26,520 Speaker 1: to get from it. 675 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 2: Well, you're going to take away from this, I hope 676 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,319 Speaker 2: you do, is that a cycle path one hundred years 677 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,880 Speaker 2: ago is really no different than a cycle path today. 678 00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:41,640 Speaker 2: The mentality, the mindset, the psychology may have evolved, but 679 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,320 Speaker 2: it's the same, right And I think in this country 680 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:51,000 Speaker 2: we have this Hollywood cartoon version, if you will, of 681 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 2: the serial killer who wears a clown suit or drives 682 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:59,160 Speaker 2: a Volkswagen or you know, a domer. That's not really 683 00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:03,879 Speaker 2: what serial killers are like, those are anomalies. There are 684 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,080 Speaker 2: Amy Archer Gilligans out there today who are killing that 685 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,799 Speaker 2: we just we haven't caught yet, right, you know, so 686 00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,080 Speaker 2: we have to keep our eyes and our ears always open. 687 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,880 Speaker 1: Many thanks again to m William Phelps for coming to 688 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,719 Speaker 1: talk to me. For more of his insights on the 689 00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,920 Speaker 1: Amy Archer Gilligan case, check out his book The Devil's 690 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,280 Speaker 1: Rooming House, and for more of his voice and incredible 691 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,680 Speaker 1: research and podcast form. I know I'll be eagerly awaiting 692 00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,000 Speaker 1: the results of his trip to the Ozarks in season 693 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:39,920 Speaker 1: four of Paper Ghosts. Join me next week on the 694 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,360 Speaker 1: Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told, where we tell the 695 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,960 Speaker 1: story of love, greed and murder, the story of the 696 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 1: deadly gold digger Celeste Beard. In addition to im William Phelps' book, 697 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,319 Speaker 1: The Devil's Rooming House, I like to shout out all 698 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,239 Speaker 1: the court documents from the trial and the article from 699 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,440 Speaker 1: the Vigilante Journalist mentioned in the episode itself. They were 700 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,680 Speaker 1: all crucial in helping me tell this story. For more 701 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,719 Speaker 1: information about this case and other cases we cover on 702 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:16,920 Speaker 1: the show, visit Diversion Audio dot com, sign up for 703 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,840 Speaker 1: Diversion's newsletter and be among the first to hear about 704 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,759 Speaker 1: our special behind the scenes features with the hosts and 705 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: actors from Diversion's podcasts, more shows you'll love from Diversion 706 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,520 Speaker 1: and our partners, and other exclusive tidbits you can't get 707 00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:35,520 Speaker 1: anywhere else. That's Diversion Audio dot com to sign up 708 00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:40,240 Speaker 1: for the newsletter. The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told 709 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,520 Speaker 1: is a production of Diversion Audio. I'm Mary Kay mcbraer. 710 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,000 Speaker 1: I wrote this episode and our editorial director is Nora Bateel. 711 00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,920 Speaker 1: Our show is produced and directed by Mark Francis. Our 712 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:59,120 Speaker 1: development team is Emma Dmouth and Jacob Bronstein. Theme music 713 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:05,319 Speaker 1: by Tyler Cash. Executive producers Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis, and 714 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:18,720 Speaker 1: Scott Waxman. Diversion Audio