1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a six year 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: old little girl end up dead? And what's the last 3 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: thing the little girl sees before she dies her mother? 4 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Take a listen now to 5 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: our friends at ABC seven News. This is Reporter Anthony Johnson. 6 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: Family members making a grizzly discovery. A mother and her 7 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: six year old daughter shot to death. The bodies of 8 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: the two found inside the West Orange apartment on Sunday, 9 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Reporter Anthony Johnson with the latest on the investigation. 10 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: It's tragedy occurred in a normally quiet corner apartment building. 11 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: Whether we're say they normally know each other. So everyone 12 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: that we've spoken to today says they are in shop. 13 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: I guess they are. A six year old child dead. 14 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: The last thing she sees is Mommy's face. Joining me 15 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: an all Star panel. James shell nutt twenty seven years 16 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: Metro major case including SWAT, been on many many a 17 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: crime scene now lawyer at shell nut Lawfirm dot com. 18 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Jeff Gardeer, clinical psychologist, Professor Behavioral Medicine at Truro, 19 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: author of the Causes of Autism and you can find 20 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: him at Doctor Jeff gardeer dot com. Stephen Lampley, former 21 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: cop undercover, author of Twelve and Murdered. You can find 22 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: it on Amazon. He's a Stephen David Lampley dot com. 23 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: His book Twelve and Murdered. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University. 24 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Sure of 25 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: an idiot series Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. 26 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan with me death investigator, but first straight 27 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: out to lead a news anchor for w DBO Ray 28 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: Kiputo Ray, how does a six year old little girl 29 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: end up dead? And Nancy, I mean, I'll tell you 30 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: it's not It's the thing that's farthest from your mind 31 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: with a little child. But in this case, it was 32 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: her own mom. It was the person who was there 33 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: to protect her. Kids are not supposed to die at 34 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: the hands of their parents. But this is what happened. 35 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 1: It's very hard for me to believe. You know when 36 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: you look statistically at methods and assessment of homicide and suicide. 37 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: To you, Justice Scott Morgan, You've been on many a 38 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: scene where you have to decide what exactly happened. That's 39 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: your job. Very rarely do you see a female of 40 00:02:54,960 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: this age, thirty six year old Simba Bardon affect a 41 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: murder with a gun, statistically speaking, much less a suicide 42 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: by gun. That's very unheard of, Jay Scott, I think 43 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: that at one point, Tom, that would be the case. 44 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: But I think the pressures of life now, the space 45 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: that women occupy in the workforce, I think that that's 46 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: changed a bit. They're under a lot more pressure. Throughout 47 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: my career, I saw what you were saying early on, 48 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: but as time has gone along, I saw more and 49 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: more women dying as a result of self inflicted gunshot wounds, 50 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: particularly towards the end of my career as a practitioner 51 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: than I had way back in the early eighties at 52 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: the start of my career. You may see it more 53 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: and more, but still I believe it's statistically very low. 54 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: A woman kills her child, it's usually by asphyxiation, overdosing 55 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: them on you know, ben and drill or whatever you 56 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: want to od them on, drowning them. I haven't seen 57 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: a lot of women that shoot their six year old 58 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: daughter dead. Guys, take a listen to our friends at 59 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: ABC seven, Anthony Johnson. Authorities let residents know there was 60 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: no threat to the community, but this has rattled to 61 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: everyone living in this West Orange apartment complex. Authorities say 62 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: there was never any sign of forced entry into the apartment, 63 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: but they are continuing their investigation. Well, right there to you, 64 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: James shell Nut shell Nut Law from dot com. You're 65 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: seeing where the cops in mind is going. There's no 66 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: forced entry, there's nothing stolen, there's no sex attack. It's 67 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: all leading up to one thing. And that one thing 68 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: as what shell Nutt's leading up to a murder suicide. Yeah, 69 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: because nobody broke in, nothing is missing. The home is 70 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 1: at ransacked. You've got a thirty six year old mother 71 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: in the home with her dead six year old little girl. 72 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: Now what do I understand, Ray Kiputo about the little 73 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: girl having quote special needs? Yeah, it's she was autistic. 74 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: You know, there are a lot of children these days 75 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: from her identified as being in the spectrum. So we 76 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: just know that the child presented a different challenge to 77 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: the mom. And think about when this happened. This happened 78 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: at the end of May, so this school is still 79 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: in a session in West Orange in that area. Wait 80 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: a minute to doctor Jeff Gardier for a thirty six 81 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: year old mom, and I understand that you've got the 82 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: mom with a six year old little girl with special needs. 83 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: It's during COVID, so the little girl is at home. 84 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: Daphne Young from child Help and their number eight hundred 85 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: and four two two four four thirty three, Daphne. How 86 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: is it different for a parent with a special needs 87 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: child versus a parent with a ordinary child and child Nancy, 88 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, when you were looking forward to your twins, 89 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: you probably already had a lot of dreams in mind. 90 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: This is what I'm going to name my kids, this 91 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: is what they're going to do in their future. I 92 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: hope they go to this college, maybe my alma mater. 93 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: And as you learn that you have a special needs child, 94 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: a lot of those dreams have to shift and change. 95 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: A lot of the future goals get rewritten, and wonderful 96 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: parents can reboot and pivot and create new dreams and 97 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: lives and new goals and objectives. But there's a little 98 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: period of mourning that comes from just kind of the 99 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: way that we all imagine our children's futures. And so 100 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: when a child has special needs that involve day to 101 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: day care, it's also very difficult just to schedule life 102 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, there's always maybe a need that comes up, 103 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: a medical appointment that has to happen, an emergency room run, 104 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: or an outburst you weren't planning for, and it can 105 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: be very difficult to get a sense of normalcy and 106 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: bounds in life. What does COVID have to do with this, 107 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: Jeff Gardier, Well, what we know is that if we're 108 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: dealing with a child who has special needs, going to 109 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: an online education that is one of the least effective 110 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: ways to be able to help the child, because these 111 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: wonderful children really need to be in the school setting 112 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: to get all of their services. Quite often they just 113 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: don't have the focus to be able to stay in 114 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: front of a computer. That's part of some of the 115 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: ADHD that they have. And the other part of that 116 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: is it's overwhelming for the parents who are looking at 117 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: all of these special needs. In this case, the parent 118 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: not getting the support most likely, and it was just 119 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: overwhelming for her to now have to be able to 120 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: coordinate all of these services online. And who knows what 121 00:07:55,440 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: other emotions she was going through, including depression and anxiety 122 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: from having to deal with all of this COVID related 123 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: issues on her own with her daughter yakity, yakity yak 124 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: stress pressure, I get it, but does she your own 125 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: six year old child? And also, when you're talking about 126 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: stresses and pressure, this mother planned what she did, Jeff Gardier, 127 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: because she intentionally waited until her husband walked out. I 128 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: don't know if he ran an errand I don't know 129 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: if he went to work, but she waited until he left. 130 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: Then she secured a gun and shot her six year 131 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: old daughter dead. Now able to plan and murder her 132 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: child without being stopped, that shows me intent. And if 133 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: I see intent, that means this woman was not insane 134 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: at the time. Gardier. No, it certainly does show that 135 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: she was not insane, but it doesn't preclude that there 136 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: were serious mental health issues that may have been part 137 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: of her life. After all, she then turned around and 138 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: killed herself. So this wasn't a crime of opportunism. It 139 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: was one of it appears to be Nancy, one of 140 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: desperation and complete helplessness in her life. Yes, doctor Jeff 141 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: Guardier is a board certified clinical psychologists. Yes, he's the 142 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 1: professor of Behavioral Medicine at Truro. Yes, he's an author 143 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: of the Causes of Autism. And I don't claim to 144 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: know more than him about mental illness, but I do 145 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: know the mother fortuitously waited until her husband left and 146 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: then she kills her six year old child. Now, maybe 147 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: a jury would have agreed with me that the mother 148 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: knew exactly what she was doing and as she turned 149 00:09:53,640 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: the gun on herself out of feelings of guilt. Crime 150 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the death 151 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 1: of a six year old little girl, so defenseless, and 152 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: to top it all off, she said home alone with 153 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: mommy during COVID listen. Thirty six year old Socialmida Bartend 154 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: and her six year old daughter are found dead by 155 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: a family member and their West Orange, New Jersey apartment 156 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: on May thirty first. The mother and daughter sustained fatal 157 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds. Their deaths are being investigated by West Orange 158 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: Police and the Homicide in Major Crimes Task Force. The 159 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: name of the six year old female victim has not 160 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: been released. The child attended Kelly School and with special needs. 161 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: When I'm trying to figure out as how the whole 162 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: thing could have been avoided, guys, you're hearing from our 163 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: friends at crime online dot Com. Listen to this. They 164 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: were very quiet. That didn't social lies with anybody, because 165 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: everybody in our corner over there, we all sit outside, 166 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: we're friendly, and it's it's it's unusual that's something like this. 167 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: It's very everybody by surprise, everybody. You're hearing our friend 168 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: from ABC seven. You know, I'm very curious to you, 169 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: Steve Lampley, author speaker, the author of twelve and murdered 170 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: the former cop Stephen. Why is it that no one 171 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: believes it can happen in their neighborhood. You just heard 172 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: a neighbor saying, very quiet, there's no crime there, a 173 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: beautiful corner apartment looking out, and they're all stunned. When 174 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: will people get through their heads that crime happens in 175 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: every neighborhood. Fancy, that's unfortunately the fact of the matter. 176 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: In a similar note, when I go out to schools 177 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: and I go out to talk to parent groups, I 178 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: inevitably almost one hundred percent at the time, here's the phrase, 179 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: well we live so and so it won't happen here. 180 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: I hear that over and over and over, and I 181 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: don't know why people think they have immunity when they don't. 182 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: This crime happens everywhere. You may not hear about it, 183 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: but it happens everywhere you know. To you death investigator 184 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, it's assumed that this is a murder suicide. 185 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: How do you look at the forensics, at the trajectory paths, 186 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: at the location of bullets, cartridges, blood spatter and determine 187 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: was this a murder suicide or was this a double homicide. Well, 188 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: one of the things that you've already mentioned actually is 189 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: a big clue for us is are there any signs 190 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: of fourth century, four century or struggle at the scene. 191 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: And that's that's a big red flag for us. Also, 192 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: I've worked a lot of familial murder suicide cases over 193 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: my career, and you know, you have those that involved 194 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: the husband and wife, and those are actually different than 195 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: when you work those that are involved in a parent 196 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: a child. I've actually seen cases, Nancy, where people have 197 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: posed their children, They'll put stuffed animals around them, all 198 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: these sorts of things after they have killed the child, 199 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: and so sometimes you'll have this adjustment of the scene. 200 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: So you have to be very very careful when you, 201 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: for instance, examine the wounds on the child. I have 202 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: no idea where the injuries on this child are However, 203 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: I would be looking for, first off, a range of fire, 204 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: that is the distance from the muzzle to the injury, 205 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: and also the trajectory that it traveled. Was it from 206 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: above to below? Was it from side to side? And 207 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: try to get an idea as to what position was 208 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: the victim in relative to the shooter. And this is 209 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: going to tell us a lot. Were they in a 210 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: position where they could get very intimate with a person, 211 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean up close and personal in order to facilitate that? 212 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: And that also to this idea, how purposed was the 213 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: person to kill this individual? Did they just kind of 214 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: hare them, scare them, wound them, you know, maybe they 215 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: shot him a couple of times, or maybe while the 216 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: child was asleep. And I've seen this happen. They were 217 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: essentially executed in their sleep. So all of that has 218 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: to be born in mind when you're conducting investigation into 219 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: these things. Straight out to James and Shellnut twenty seven 220 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: years metro major case now lawyer at Shalnut Law from 221 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: dot com. Where would video surveillance and potential cell phone 222 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: nav way into this to determine who, if anyone else 223 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: was in that apartment? Well, you know, I mean, a 224 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: lot of people nowadays have ringing doorbells, a lot of 225 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: people have surveillance cameras. Even in these apartment complexes. The 226 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: complexes themselves have videos that would potentially show whether or 227 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: not someone was making entrier or exit. Supposedly there was 228 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: another family member earlier in the day that was at 229 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: the house. I believe that father or her husband that 230 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: had left, but this supposed to occurred while it was gone. 231 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: You know, looking at GPS naval phones, you know, the 232 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: first thing you're gonna want to do is check check 233 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: that father, that husband's phone to see if there's any 234 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: indication any tracking, an electronic footprint to indicate whether or 235 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: not he was or was not in that area at 236 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: the time, and I back up his alibi. I think 237 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: those things are critical to not just necessarily ruling someone in, 238 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: but also ruling someone out as a suspect. I agree 239 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: with you, shal Nut, because if there was a ring 240 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: a doorbell, we use ours all the time, you can 241 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: see who's coming in and out or even just to 242 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: the door. So when the father left home just before 243 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: the shooting's occurred, that would be captured on the ring video. 244 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: We understand there's only one entrance to the door. That 245 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: may or may not be correct, But if so, was 246 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: there video on the corners of nearby apartment buildings directed 247 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: toward the home? If so, and very likely so, you 248 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: would have seen if someone goes in or out of 249 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: the home from both doors. Also regarding the cell phone navigation, 250 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: you would see where the father went. Cell phones even 251 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: pick up how many steps you've gone, whether you have 252 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: the app or not on your FOTBD, very often your 253 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: cell phone is tracking your every move. I've seen murder 254 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: cases cracked just recently because a husband showed up eighteen 255 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: steps on a foot bed or a phone nav when 256 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: he said he was asleep at the time of his 257 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: wife's murder. Bam busted, convicted. So what do we know 258 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: about who's going in and out of the home? What 259 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: do we know about the positioning of the bodies? As 260 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: just Scott Morgan tells you, they're going to be looking 261 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: at the trajectory path. That simply means the angle of 262 00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: the entry and the exit, wounds on the bodies where 263 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: the bodies found snuggling together. Remember Jess Goot Morgan in 264 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: the Aurea Yates case where she killed every last one 265 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: of her children by drowning them dead. She then staged them. 266 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: She also carefully waited for her husband Rusty, to leave, 267 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: and as she killed all the children one by one, 268 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: the children struggle to live. Even the baby Mary was 269 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: covered in bruises where she was forced to be held 270 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 1: under water. So I'm just curious about your analysis regarding 271 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: the trajectory paths and why this was so quickly deemed 272 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: a murder suicide. Joe Scott, Well, I think that what 273 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: you have we call it a symmetry, and that is 274 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: where you have one individual that is inn a dominant 275 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: position over another, and you know, there's all kinds of 276 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: psycho psychological things she can playing with asymmetry, but in 277 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: a physical sense, what is the relationship between the larger 278 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: person and the smaller person and how close in that 279 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: space then can they get to this individual? Now Here, 280 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: we're just talking about a six year old girl who 281 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: in fact is disabled, so it really wouldn't take that much. 282 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: I think that analyzing this scene from relative to the 283 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: range of fire and trajectory is going to be very 284 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: very important. One key element here is you're going to 285 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: have a couple of collections of blood here. Okay, you'll 286 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: have what was generated from this precious little angel and 287 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: then from the perpetrator, her mom. So, for instance, if 288 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: you have some kind of blood staining that's associated with 289 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: the little girl, you're gonna want to know if that's 290 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: the initial impact, and that goes to the bigger issue 291 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: like staging the scene. If she was removed from that 292 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: spot and then moved to another, that's going to change 293 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: the relationship. All in this my suspicion is is that 294 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: she probably killed this child in that location. There was 295 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: no staging involved. That's going to give the police an 296 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: indication that she killed her right there, and then the 297 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,719 Speaker 1: mother went on to kill herself later. Well, for instance, 298 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: in the ANDREWA. Yates case, we see where the mothers 299 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: staged all the children, taking them out of the bathtub 300 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: and then laying them out on a bed side by 301 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: side all of the children. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, 302 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about what we believe to be a murder 303 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: suicide or isn't I know this much? A six year 304 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: old little girl with special needs is dead by gunshot wound? 305 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: Did mommy do the deed? Take a listen to our 306 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: friends at ABC seven. According to Na whereas the little 307 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: girl was killed by a mother, a mother who felt 308 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: too much pressure raising a child with special needs. According 309 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: to a source, the father had left the house at 310 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: the time, and while he was gone, the mother took 311 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: out a gun and shot her six year old daughter 312 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: and then turned the gun on herself and what is 313 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: being described as a murder suicide. According to sources, the 314 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: mother had expressed feelings of being overwhelmed, but no one 315 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: could have expected a tragedy like this to be the 316 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: said final result. Not to circle back to Andrea Yates, 317 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: possibly the most high profile case where mom in that 318 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: case murders multiple children. I remember speaking with the husband, 319 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: Rusty Yates, and many people wondered could he not tell 320 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: what condition Andrew Yates was in. There was a point, 321 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this or not, out 322 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: to you, doctor Jeff Gardier, where Rusty Yates had sold 323 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: the home, given up the home and moved the wife 324 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: and all. I think there were five children, all of 325 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: the children into a school bus. And he had a 326 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: very good job. I want to say he was an engineer, 327 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: not sure about that, but of that ilk of education. 328 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: So why would he put his wife and children to 329 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: live in a school bus. Certainly it appears that it 330 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: was a very poor judgment, a way to marginalize some 331 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: of the pressure in his own life. Perhaps a very 332 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: very selfish act. But it again speaks to and I 333 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: think what we may be seeing here just being completely 334 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the pressures of the financial and emotional caring 335 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: for a child. Certainly not an excuse, but a possible 336 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: mitigating factor. It's not the first time that a mother 337 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: has killed her children and oftentimes herself. Just recently in 338 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: the Knees a twenty five year old mother who reportedly 339 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: killed her own three children two of her stepchildren. Take 340 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at the Sun dot com. 341 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: We're talking about Orianna Myers. She shot all five kids 342 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: in the head. She left a letter of confession stating 343 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: she shot all five kids in the head. She set 344 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: the house on fire and went outside and shot herself. 345 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: My name is ravenbaum Garner and I'm the mother of 346 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: Sean and Riley. I received a picture and some text 347 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: messages from Brian's cousin who lives down the road. The 348 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: house was on fire, completely engulfed. I jumped in my 349 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: car and I left and I got Aaron House was gone. 350 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: It was a chimney left in flames. She she took 351 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: their lives. How good you do that to children? They describe, 352 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: She's a shotgun, a single action shotgun, so you have 353 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: to break in down and reload it after every single shot. 354 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: So how can you do that five times? Five children? 355 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: I loved them and I miss them, and I know 356 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: they're looking out for me and their sister. Overwhelmed to 357 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: the point that you not only kill yourself but all 358 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: of your children. To James shell Nutt, a twenty seven 359 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: years Metro major case Now lawyer, James, I heard what 360 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Mortgage just said, but I still say it 361 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: is very rare for a female of this age to 362 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: kill themselves by gun, much less in Oriana Meyer's case 363 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: with a shotgun. Yeah, I agree, And you know, Joe Scott, 364 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: boys of performing society's change culture has changed and so 365 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: that has effected the numbers. But I still think you 366 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: know you're correct that it is very rare. Matter of fact, murders. 367 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: Suicide in itself is very rare. You know the times 368 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: that I've come across it is normally a middle aged 369 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: male as the perpetrator who murders his wife and or 370 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: kids and then kills himself. Very rarely is it a female, 371 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: And very rarely, especially with the exempt you brought up 372 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: men to go as it. A shotgun is a very 373 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: rare occurrence. You've got to react between each shot, giving 374 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: you time under the law to form intent. Out to you. 375 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, former cop, now author and speaker, author of 376 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: twelve and Murdered on Amazon, Steve Lampley, have you ever 377 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: seen a female of this age the mom is thirty 378 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: six years old, kill her children and herself by gun? 379 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: Nancy haven't. But now there are exceptions. A matter of fact, 380 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: next police partner attempted to kill herself with a gun. 381 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: But there are exceptions to that rule. But most of 382 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: the time, when we find it again, I'll go back 383 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: to Joe Scott. He's correct. Times are changing, it's becoming 384 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: a lot more frequent. But I have in my career, 385 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: I've never come across that, neither of ibe. But I 386 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: believe you, Joe Scott, and may be more frequent, maybe 387 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: one or two more a year across the country, but 388 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: I'll go with you. Man. And we were saying earlier, 389 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: and I was speaking to Lampley about this doesn't matter 390 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: where you live or how much money you make, crime 391 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: can touch your life. I want to touch on another 392 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: aspect to you, doctor Jeff Gardier, who wrote The Causes 393 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: of Autism. When this mother is saying that she is 394 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: overwhelmed with raising her six year old daughter with special 395 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: needs to the point where she kills martyrs her daughter 396 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: and we think takes her own life, what does she 397 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: mean by overwhelmed? Quite often what we see is that 398 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: our educational institutions Nancy, as much as they may want 399 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: to try, are not completely sensitive to the needs of 400 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: parents who have special needs children. They may be able 401 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: to give the children the care that they need, the 402 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: special programs, the individualized educational programs, but the parents are 403 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: pretty much left on their own in dealing with their 404 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: own emotions around this, and as well, society makes a 405 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: lot of judgments against our incredible children who have some 406 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: of these issues, and so these parents feel that they 407 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: are alone in dealing with the needs of their children. 408 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: Daphne On from Child Help with Stephanie, what would you 409 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: have said to Shishmima Bardan. I think any parent in 410 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: crisis needs to hear there's help. It's okay to be scared, 411 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: it's okay to be over but your child needs love 412 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: and care and safety. And if you don't feel like 413 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: a safe person today, we're not going to shame you. 414 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: We're going to give you help and somebody can step 415 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: in and take care of that, and you can start 416 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: to get some services you need to get the assistance 417 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: to make this a better situation, because at the end 418 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: of the day, your child is a child of God 419 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: and deserves that love and security and care, and there's 420 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people willing to help with that. I 421 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: want to tell you about a friend of mine in 422 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: my life and she has we met through her having twins, 423 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: and she has two girls the age of my twins. 424 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: They're now thirteam, extremely premature. They both start off with 425 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: a lot of special needs. One still has special needs. 426 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: Can I tell you, doctor Jeff, She's totally quit her 427 00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: job everything because she has to work so hard. She's 428 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: had to work so hard to get a child advocate, 429 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: to get a special person at the school to help 430 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: keep the children learning. I mean, it has become more 431 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: than a full time job to get her children, her 432 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,719 Speaker 1: two girls in public schools. What they need to just 433 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: get through the day, and I'd like to report they 434 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: are more than getting through the day. They're both in 435 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: their regular grade now and they're both playing team hockey 436 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: with the league, both the girls. But it took all 437 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: that pain and suffering, having to actually quit her job 438 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: to navigate the system for her two little girls, Jeff, 439 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: And I mean, I don't know how she did it, 440 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: and she's just one person that I know doing it. 441 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: It's very hard when you say the education system does 442 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: not meet the needs are parents whose children or special needs? 443 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: You are so right, doctor Jeff. Yes, Nancy. And what 444 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: we find is that it's important that these parents have 445 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: support groups other people who are dealing with the same 446 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: sorts of situations, so they can learn empowerment strategies but 447 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: also bear their souls as to some of the difficulties 448 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: they face. And let me just say one last thing. 449 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: Many parents know this with their children who have special needs. 450 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: The fear that parents have that their children will not 451 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: be picked on, will not be bullied because they know 452 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: they do have some of these needs, some of these 453 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: special needs, and wanting to keep them safe at all times. 454 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: So when you look at all of these things in totality, 455 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: getting the right services, making sure that they live great lives, 456 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: and they can because to me, potentially they're all geniuses. 457 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: But it's unlocking the right and making sure that they 458 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: are safe. Those things can be very overwhelming. Crime stories 459 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, guys, we were talking about the death 460 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: of a six year old little girl. Her thirty says 461 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: your old mother. We believe shot the little girl dead 462 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: and then turned the gun on herself while dad had 463 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: just left the home. There is no excuse, and I 464 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: personally would prosecute this woman from murder. But that said, 465 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: do you know doctor Jeff that a lot of these 466 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: parents are shamed when they are overwhelmed raising their child 467 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: or they need help, they don't know what to do. 468 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: Daphne Young from Child Help. Have you heard of parent shaming? 469 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: Their parents are having problems, pressure, is feeling overwhelmed trying 470 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: to raise their children, especially children with special needs. Parent 471 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: shaming has gotten worse than ever because of social media. 472 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: So right now you can look at a world of 473 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: perfect parents with every cupcake handmade, everyone's eating organic, and 474 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: if you're running through them McDonald's drive through just trying 475 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: to feed your family, and you're stressed and you're managing 476 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: fifteen things at once. They're can be a deep sense 477 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: of shame just for not living up to the highest bar, 478 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,719 Speaker 1: much less if you make a mistake, or if your 479 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: child is hurting your care, or if you fail to 480 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: pick them up on time at a daycare situation. So 481 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: we see the gamut of parent shaming and it breaks 482 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: our hearts because good parents can feel like they're failing 483 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: at every turn. Because of this, they're shamed by the 484 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: other parents, They're shamed by their relatives. So there's nobody 485 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: them to talk to unless they get into a support group. 486 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: They don't have anybody to talk to. They feel like 487 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with them. And again that is not 488 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: legal insanity. I would totally prosecute this woman she weren't 489 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: already dead for murder and the murder of her six 490 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: year old child. But I'm also hearing what these parents 491 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: go through. We had a friend, doctor Jeff and I 492 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: think I've talked to you about this before, that adopted 493 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: three boys from the same mom. They adopted one, then 494 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: the mom had another boy that I think all in 495 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: they got three. Two of them had autism. This mom 496 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: practice single lawyer, very well respected up for judge ship. 497 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: There was a point where the one older boy was 498 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: totally out of control. She had to lock herself in 499 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: a closet. The boy was now taller than her and 500 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: she was afraid he was going to hit her with 501 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: a baseball bat and just did not know what to do. 502 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: And love the Sun devoted her whole life to helping 503 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: the Sun. But sometimes they're at a point you don't 504 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: know what to do with. Everybody shames you for that, Jeff, 505 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: Yes they do. And all comes back to that concept 506 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: in our society that children have to be perfect, that 507 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: they have to be born a certain way, and if 508 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: they have any kinds of issues at birth, that there's 509 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: something wrong with them. No, everything is right with them, 510 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: and we have to find how we can help them 511 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: in achieving their potential. But yes, sometimes our kids get 512 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: older and if we don't have the right supports for them, 513 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: it can go in a direction that becomes really really 514 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: difficult as they get older. And that's why it's so 515 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: important that we stand behind all parents dealing with their 516 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: special needs children and help them get what they need emotionally, intellectually, 517 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: academically and also ring support for the parents. And again 518 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: we are not excusing what happened here, but I'm focusing 519 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,439 Speaker 1: on what the mother told other people before she telled 520 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: herself and her child, Daphne on from child to help 521 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: with Stephanie. What would you have said to Shishmima Bardan. 522 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: I think any parent in crisis needs to hear there's help. 523 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: It's okay to be scared, it's okay to be overwhelmed, 524 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: but your child needs love and care and safety. And 525 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: if you don't feel like a safe person today, we're 526 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: not going to shame you. We're going to give you 527 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: help and somebody can step in and take care of that, 528 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: and you can start to get some services. You need 529 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: to get the assistance to make this a better situation, 530 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, your child is 531 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: a child of God and deserves that love and security 532 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: and care, and there's a lot of people willing to 533 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: help with that. Now. Earlier you heard from our friends 534 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: at the Sun dot Com dealing the twenty five year 535 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: old mom a three step mom to two others ri 536 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: on a Myers. We also note that she made statements 537 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: that the husband was always out of town. Was that 538 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: a getback murder of five children because she was angry? Well, 539 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: it happens very often. I want to tell you about 540 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: the case of Marcia Edwards and in this case, this 541 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: is in one of the most affluential, wealthy, privileged, gated 542 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: community neighborhoods near the city of Atlanta. Take a listen 543 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: to our friend Doug Richards at eleven Alive Well. Police 544 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: say this is the case of a fifty eight year 545 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: old woman who shot and killed her adult son and 546 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 1: daughter inside her home apparently yesterday. The woman then shot 547 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: and killed herself. It's a story breaking. Hearts from Cobb 548 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,479 Speaker 1: County to Atlanta City Hall. Marcia Edwards is the woman 549 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: on the left, the mother of daughter Aaron and son Christopher. 550 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: Police say the mother fired the shots that killed all 551 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: three Wednesday night. We didn't hear anything. There's no sign 552 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: of any you know, violence happening or Dalia Kartal lives 553 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: next door to the Cobb Counted condo. Police visited Wednesday evening. 554 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: Kartal is a neighbor who'd gotten to know and appreciate 555 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: the family. Just a really nice family. Children Aaron and 556 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: Chris had exceedingly promising futures. Just really bright, nice kind people. 557 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: And these were adult children. The daughter was twenty the 558 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 1: Son twenty four Take a List to Our Cut twenty 559 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: six to eleven Alive Jennifer Bellamy. Marsha Edward's Facebook pages 560 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: filled with images of her children, Chris and Aaron. She 561 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: served several pictures celebrating her son Chris's birthday in June, 562 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: calling him her best guy and her daughter Aaron her 563 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: best girl, and within the last few days, she posted 564 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: multiple times from a trip to Italy with her daughter, 565 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: sharing dozens of photos and videos over several days, visiting 566 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: famous sits, smiling, toasting, and posing for the camera. And 567 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: in July, Marsha posted pictures from an Independence Day trip 568 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: to Destined with her son Chris. Marsha also posted about 569 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: Aaron's internships with the City of Atlanta and CNN. She 570 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: shared articles Aaron rode while recently interning for NBC and 571 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: traveled to New York to see her. Over the summer. 572 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: Aaron's page shows she was studying at Boston University. She 573 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: frequently tagged her mother in post, sharing pictures of them 574 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: together and writing how proud she was of all her 575 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: mom had accomplished. When she was honored in April as 576 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: a small business owner and community leader by the Women 577 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: works media group. That's one of Atlanta's one hundred most 578 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: powerful and Influential women of twenty nineteen. Yet that mom, 579 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: with all that going for her and how wonderfully her 580 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: children had matured into real go getters, she shoots her 581 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: adult children and herself. Take a listen to Atlanta's eleven 582 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: Alive Faith abbity. Why would a mother who posted on 583 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: social media I couldn't ask for better children kill her 584 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: own children just days later? Or police are still working 585 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: that ang goal of why? But tonight the Medical Examiner's 586 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: reports reveal several new details about this case. It shows 587 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: Marcia Edwards shot her twenty four year old son, Christopher 588 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 1: at least five times in the Comp County townhouse back 589 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: in August. Police found the twenty four year olds body 590 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: in bed. Police then found Christopher's twenty year old sister, Aaron, 591 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: in another room on another floor of that townhouse. Her 592 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: mother had shot her three times and then shot herself 593 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,399 Speaker 1: once in the chest, right there next to her daughter. 594 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 1: We know that in that case there had been a 595 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: recent divorce. Was this some sort of a get back 596 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: at the husband for starting a new life? And of 597 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: course straight out to you, Steve Lampley. We know that, 598 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: and stark contradiction to what was posted on Facebook and 599 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: throughout social media about her, how much she loved her children, 600 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: how great they were, all they were accomplishing. She murdered them. 601 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: So you can't believe social media posts. No, you can't, 602 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: ask usian. You can read anything on social media, and 603 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: people make up stories. People intentionally make up stories. Excuse me, 604 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: elaborate greatly beyond what it is. You can't. You can't 605 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: take what you see on social media unless you verify 606 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: its yourself. And to you, James Shell, not twenty seven 607 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: years much. You a major case now, lawyer. I've seen 608 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: a lot of cases for husbands or boyfriends lovers kill 609 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: a child and get back to the mother, but very 610 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: rarely have I seen a reverse get back murder where 611 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: the mom kills the children and then herself. In this 612 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: particular case, though, James, I don't see this as a 613 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:47,720 Speaker 1: getback murder. I think the mother truly was overwhelmed and 614 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: felt there was no one to talk to, or whoever 615 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: she did talk to wouldn't listen. Oh, absolutely, you know, 616 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: I mean you think about this, This let her entire 617 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: life dealing with this. You know she as and I'm not. 618 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: I'm not taking up for what she's done. I think 619 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: you have known had a mind to go in the 620 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: same way as you, and I'm not excusing it. But 621 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: she spent her entire life doing with this. This lady 622 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: has probably you know, upset herself to decide of the 623 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: little girl was only six. Well, I know, but but 624 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: this is this has gone on for a while, and 625 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: so I mean, she has dealt with us for six years. 626 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: It is overwhelming as a parent. I think our doctor 627 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: said a men ago, you know, one of the things 628 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: that we miss in society is being able to have 629 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: parents with coping skills. And I think that sometimes you 630 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: fail to get the mental health treatment that you need, 631 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: you fail to take care of your own needs, and 632 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: that just builds up. And I think sometimes it can 633 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: overtake a person before they realize it's overtaken them, and 634 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: it results sometimes in deadly situations like this. If you 635 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: know of a case where you suspect tensions mounting and 636 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: should them in the home, please called child help. Daphne. 637 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,959 Speaker 1: What is your advice to friends and relatives who may 638 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: notice a parent overwhelmed with raising their children, Whether we 639 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: agree with it or not it exists in their mind, 640 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: and for the sake of the child, the parent needs help. 641 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 1: You want to look for signs and symptoms of stress, 642 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: of shutting down, of not returning calls, and you want 643 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: to be that gentle, non shaming voice in their life 644 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 1: that just calls up and says, hey, I imagine you're 645 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: pretty stressed right now, like we all are. Is there 646 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 1: something I can do to take a little stress away? 647 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: Can I run a few errands for you? Can I 648 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: cook dinner and leave it on your doorstep, if you 649 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: can take a little of that pressure off, or just 650 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: be a listening ear, Hey, tell me what's going on today. 651 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: Let's just go sit on our back porches for a 652 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 1: second and talk. You can change a life. And we 653 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,439 Speaker 1: have the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline one eight 654 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,359 Speaker 1: hundred four to two four four five three, and you 655 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: can just share that number and say, hey, call child 656 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: Help or text or chat with them, share your feelings. 657 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: You don't have to be in crisis. You may just 658 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: need self soothing tips or a little parenting help or 659 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: local resources. Hey, my child has autism. I need to 660 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,840 Speaker 1: know where there's a resource group. I'm shutting down and 661 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: I need some immediate help, whether it's a nurse or 662 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: somebody that can step in and just make that call 663 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: and see what's available. National Child Abuse Hotline eight hundred 664 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: four A Child eight hundred four four five three Nancy 665 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: Grace Crime Story signing off, Goodbye friend,