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Speaker 1: She checked a lot of boxes in that regard, and

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Speaker 1: she knew it, and she worked it, and she worked

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Speaker 1: it all the way to the slammer.

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Speaker 2: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridge Tad and this

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Speaker 2: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. You probably

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Speaker 2: know the story of Elizabeth Holmes, the scrappy, deep voice

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Speaker 2: Stanford dropout who used her college money to start fair Nose,

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Speaker 2: a company that promised to disrupt blood testing with the

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Speaker 2: use of a device capable of screening for everything from

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Speaker 2: cancer to aids with a single drop of blood. She

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Speaker 2: even had a piffy little story about how she was

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Speaker 2: inspired to start their Nose because she was afraid of

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Speaker 2: needles and couldn't stand to let a little prick to

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Speaker 2: draw her blood be stronger than she was. Honestly, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of a great story and it worked. In twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 2: Forbes named Elizabeth Holmes the world's youngest self made female billionaire,

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Speaker 2: and by that time Tharaohnose had raised over four hundred

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Speaker 2: million dollars in venture capital and was estimated to be

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Speaker 2: worth billions. But it was, of course all a scam.

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Speaker 2: Pharaohnos's devices could never test blood. Elizabeth Holmes and her

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Speaker 2: former partner COO Sonny Balwany played everyone wealthy investors and

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Speaker 2: board members, including Rupert Murdoch, former Secretary of Education Bessi Devas,

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Speaker 2: and former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. The retailed pharmacies

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Speaker 2: meant to house the devices, and most importantly, the patients,

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Speaker 2: like the mother with a history of miscarriages whom their

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Speaker 2: nose devices wrongly told that she would never be able

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Speaker 2: to have a baby, someone given a false HIV diagnosis

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Speaker 2: who then had to wait months until they could afford

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Speaker 2: a follow up test, and someone given a false cancer diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Holmes hurt real people, but that fact did not

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Speaker 2: stop her from doing a fluffy profile in the New

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Speaker 2: York Times magazine back in May, right as her sentencing

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Speaker 2: for fraud was in the headlines called Liz Holmes wants

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Speaker 2: you to forget about Elizabeth. I'm sure she does, where

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Speaker 2: she soft launches her new nickname, Liz not Elizabeth, and

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Speaker 2: gives us the I'm just like you treatment, complete with

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Speaker 2: glossy photographs of her cradling her newborn infant in her arms.

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Speaker 2: A lah Madonna and child if Madonna had been facing

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Speaker 2: jail time now. The piece was pretty universally reviled, and

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Speaker 2: with the recent news from last week that Elizabeth Holmes's

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Speaker 2: sentence is being quietly shortened by two years, the profile

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Speaker 2: seemed like a perfect bookend because Elizabeth Holmes rose to

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Speaker 2: prominence with the help of slick media profiles, and it

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Speaker 2: left me wondering about the role that those exact profiles

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Speaker 2: had in her rise and ultimate fall from grace and

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Speaker 2: the business of how those slick media profiles come to be.

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Speaker 2: So I turned to an expert.

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Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Leah Goldman. I am the deputy

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Speaker 1: editorial director of Geomedia. I also run a newsletter, a

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Speaker 1: social first newsletter called Hazmat Hotel, which is media analysis

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Speaker 1: and criticism, unfiltered, uncensored.

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Speaker 2: Whenever I'm looking for like an insidery media hot take,

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Speaker 2: I go straight to your feed. You know you've always

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Speaker 2: got something interesting to say. How did you get here?

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Speaker 1: I've been in media, yeah, since the dawn of time.

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Speaker 1: It feels like. I started out in Forbes magazine. I

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Speaker 1: was a business reporter. I knew nothing about business, but

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Speaker 1: those were the good old days where you could learn

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Speaker 1: on the job. You didn't need advanced degree or even

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Speaker 1: a j school degree. And I was there for ten

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Speaker 1: years and I learned how to write an edit and

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Speaker 1: report from some of the smartest people in the game.

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Speaker 1: Those were the days where you could get fired for

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Speaker 1: a fact checking error, so we were just a very

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Speaker 1: buttoned up group. And after that I went over to

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Speaker 1: Marie Claire. I wanted to try more general interest magazine,

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Speaker 1: and I was very fortunate because it was the you know,

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Speaker 1: media had started to coalesce around women's media. There really

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Speaker 1: wasn't a formal women's media outside of Jezebel really at

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Speaker 1: that point, so I was there. It was pre lean in,

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Speaker 1: so I was there at a very formative time, which

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Speaker 1: was kind of exciting and also strange because suddenly women

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Speaker 1: were hot and in like a business sense right, and

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Speaker 1: it was exciting. There was a lot of interest on

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Speaker 1: the advertising side, which was unusual, so that was cool.

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Speaker 1: I got to do very cool things there. Then I

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Speaker 1: went over to run Refinery twenty nine newsroom before I

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Speaker 1: got recruited to work in television at A and E,

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Speaker 1: which was really the I would say the seminal moment

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Speaker 1: in my career because I got to see how the

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Speaker 1: other half lives. If you're in media, you know, you

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Speaker 1: sort of look over that fence with envy, with lust,

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Speaker 1: with your nose pressed against the wall and your tongue

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Speaker 1: hanging out. I want to work in. Everybody, whether they'll

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Speaker 1: admit it or not, wants the story that gets optioned

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Speaker 1: for a movie that becomes argo. And so I got

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Speaker 1: to work where those things get made, and I got

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Speaker 1: to see how see what that was really like, which

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Speaker 1: blew my mind, taught me a lot. I call it

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Speaker 1: my business school. I just actually used that phrasing this morning.

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Speaker 1: It was my business school in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: And then decided after that I'm gonna write I'm a writer,

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Speaker 1: and I am a writer. And after I left A

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Speaker 1: and E, I was working under Nancy Debuke. Nancy went

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Speaker 1: over Device, so I had to write out my contract.

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Speaker 1: I was writing. I was writing full time, and then

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Speaker 1: COVID came and ended up working at Goo, which has

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Speaker 1: been its own crazy trip. That's what That's how.

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Speaker 2: I got here as a pioneer of women's media especially.

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Speaker 2: How have you seen that field evolve?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm always like a little leery of that, of

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Speaker 1: being tagged with that, because in fact, there were like

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Speaker 1: real pioneers in women's media, not you know, I just

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Speaker 1: got lucky to be at an establishment kind of media

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Speaker 1: outlet that happened to be in fashion, so in beauty.

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Speaker 2: So it was.

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Speaker 1: Flush, right, it had resources, which a lot of the

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Speaker 1: other like Jezbel didn't have that. So they they you know,

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Speaker 1: they all credit where it's due, and it's not Mary

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Speaker 1: Claire where it's due. But I will say this, The

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Speaker 1: one thing I do, you know, feel like I can

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Speaker 1: crow about, I'm proud of it is that when I

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Speaker 1: was at Mary Clare, I created the very first dedicated

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Speaker 1: section in a women's magazine devoted to career.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So historically women's magazines would cover it through the lens

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Speaker 1: of money and like the big cliche was that credit

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Speaker 1: card stuck in a block of ice. That's how we

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Speaker 1: talk to women about their careers. It was through like

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Speaker 1: how you spend your money and how to be frugal.

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Speaker 1: You know. So here was the first time we weren't

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Speaker 1: talking about getting to the top. We were talking about

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Speaker 1: what it was like at the top, and I think

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Speaker 1: that was very new. And so the idea was to

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Speaker 1: focus less on the burdens though there were certainly burdens

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Speaker 1: and less on the challenges, though there were absolutely challenges

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Speaker 1: of getting to the top, but more like, this is

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Speaker 1: the view from the top, and this is how you

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Speaker 1: can change things once you get there, and this is

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Speaker 1: why it's important that you get there. And so when

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Speaker 1: it feels like you're ready to quit, or you feel

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Speaker 1: like you don't have a shot, or you feel you know, discouraged,

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Speaker 1: just remember this is the view from the top.

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Speaker 2: To really understand Elizabeth Holmes, you need to understand the

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Speaker 2: era where she rose to prominence. The twenty tens were

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Speaker 2: just a different time. You kind of had to be there.

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Speaker 2: It was a different time for media, a different time

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Speaker 2: for women. In twenty thirteen, Facebook's then COO Cheryl Sandberg

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Speaker 2: released her book lean In, which was kind of pushed

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Speaker 2: as a manifesto for a certain kind of working white lady.

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Speaker 2: A year later, in twenty fourteen, Sofia Amoroso, founder of

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Speaker 2: the retailer Nasty Gal, releases girl Boss, which is kind

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Speaker 2: of the same thing as lean In, but with an alty,

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Speaker 2: punk rock diy ethos. That same year, Elizabeth Holmes's media

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Speaker 2: attention explodes, Fortune Forbes, t The New York Times Style

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Speaker 2: magazine inc. She's not just in these magazines, she's on

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Speaker 2: the cover writing about women and work and money and success.

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Speaker 2: Just felt hot. It's an era that Leah remembers very well.

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Speaker 1: It was an exciting time to be alive. It felt

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Speaker 1: like we were on the cusp of something and then

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Speaker 1: lo and behold, we were on the cusp of something.

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Speaker 2: What was it like to be doing this work through

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Speaker 2: so many different eras like the lean In era, the

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Speaker 2: girl Boss era, whatever era we're in now. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know what the era is that we're telling women

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Speaker 2: through media, Like, what is it bed like to see

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Speaker 2: all of these different changes?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's hard, it's hard to relive the Rah

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Speaker 1: Rah era. It definitely felt It definitely felt like we

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Speaker 1: were in the hot place, like we were in a

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Speaker 1: hot zone that were exciting. There were conferences. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: it was all about the conferences. It was always about

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Speaker 1: the fucking conferences. And it was always the same people

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Speaker 1: you'd see both on the panels and in the audiences.

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Speaker 1: That's what I remember. It was like, Oh she's here again,

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Speaker 1: Oh she's here. Like there were just you know, people

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Speaker 1: who denizens of these things. So it was like a

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Speaker 1: club right, and coming out of Forbes, I never felt

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Speaker 1: like I belonged to a club because Forbes really did

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Speaker 1: not subscribe to this idea that there was like a

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Speaker 1: media community. It always was standoffish about being part of

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Speaker 1: a club. And so when I got to Hurst, which

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Speaker 1: owned Mary Clare, I wasn't terribly well connected because I didn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't part of my upbringing, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: And so now I was part of a club, and

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Speaker 1: people started knocking on my door, and suddenly I'm editing

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Speaker 1: Sophia Marusso and suddenly I'm in a off the record

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Speaker 1: conversation with Cheryl Samdberg, and it was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: Like it was cool, you know, and it was fun,

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Speaker 1: and it came with all sorts of crazy perks. The downside, obviously,

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Speaker 1: is like now in retrospect, we can see how, you know,

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Speaker 1: how much of a herd mentality it was. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, looking through I always I

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Speaker 1: have all my stuff from that period, all my spreadsheets,

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Speaker 1: all my contacts, my ROLLO ad act hey, like you

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Speaker 1: know Elizabeth Holmes from there, nos, and like it was.

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Speaker 2: We were we were or not?

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Speaker 1: I could I let me talk for myself, I could

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Speaker 1: have done a better job of being more circumspect and

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Speaker 1: asking more questions and holding people accountable instead of buying

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Speaker 1: into this very heady era for women. And it was

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Speaker 1: heady like it was. It was like things, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was like the era where Hillary Clinton was going

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Speaker 1: to be president and like things were changing, things were afoot.

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Speaker 1: So obviously we all are living with the fallout from that,

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Speaker 1: you know, that tunnel vision, and I was part of that,

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Speaker 1: Like I have to own that I was part of

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Speaker 1: that tunnel vision.

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Speaker 2: Part of Elizabeth Holmes's success is how she worked media.

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Speaker 2: A young blonde Stanford dropout in a black Steve Jobs

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Speaker 2: turtleneck who was going to revolutionize blood testing. It was

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Speaker 2: just too perfect to pass up, not just for women's media,

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Speaker 2: but for media in general.

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Speaker 1: I think Elizabeth Holmes checked a lot of boxes for starters,

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Speaker 1: like she got it right. She got that for media,

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Speaker 1: not just's media, but especially women's media, which could help

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Speaker 1: drive a train.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 1: The dirty secret about media even now, right even after

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Speaker 1: all the reckonings and the closures, is that we all

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Speaker 1: look at each other and we're all like, oh, how

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Speaker 1: they get they got the exclusive, or who's on their list.

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Speaker 1: And it's not that we're lazy, but we're just like

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Speaker 1: always looking over at the other person's like who did

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Speaker 1: they get and why did they get that person? I

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Speaker 1: need to invite that person to my event. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you made like if you could get into a

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Speaker 1: women's book, if you could get into a women's magazine,

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Speaker 1: other we started to notice that other people would put

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Speaker 1: these women who we had discovered or we had you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not talking about there no specific Elizabeth specifically,

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Speaker 1: but just generally, you know, they would start to appear

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Speaker 1: on other lists. So we felt like we were part

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Speaker 1: of the game. And I think she understood that innately

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Speaker 1: that she could be a very She was a very

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Speaker 1: good shorthand for a certain type of woman that fit

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Speaker 1: a very accessible profile. I mean, the most obvious, the

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Speaker 1: most obvious billboard for that is her wardrobe, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm the female Steve Jobs, Like, you can't get you

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Speaker 1: can't get a shorter shorthand than that, right, Like how

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Speaker 1: easy to digest is that? So she instantly got how

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Speaker 1: to navigate media, which I find fascinating because generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: I think tech people in tech and other industries outside

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Speaker 1: media still don't get media. But she got it. So

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Speaker 1: she got the look, she got the speak, she got

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Speaker 1: the way to distill your story and your what your

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Speaker 1: company does in a way that made sense for like

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Speaker 1: an article that was only three you know, a little

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Speaker 1: caption that was only three sentences, or a full on profile.

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Speaker 1: So she understood how to you know, she understood how

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Speaker 1: to make it sing for a media person. Like when

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Speaker 1: we go into I think, you know, it's helpful for

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Speaker 1: people to understand how it worked in the magazine business,

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Speaker 1: and though it's changed considerably since then, it'll give you

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Speaker 1: a sense of why people ended up occupying the spaces

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Speaker 1: in you know, in the culture that they did. When

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Speaker 1: we would go in to pitch someone for a magazine page,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a done deal. I wouldn't just go in

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Speaker 1: and be like, I'm gonna put so and so on

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Speaker 1: a page. I had to get approval. I had to

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Speaker 1: get my editor's approvally editor and she's approval. So you

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Speaker 1: would always walk in with you know, your pitch, you

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Speaker 1: want it, and of course you want your pitch to

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Speaker 1: get approval. You want your pitch to win. And a

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Speaker 1: picture pitch in a picture and you know, and so

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Speaker 1: they're looking at it like, oh, I won't do I.

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Speaker 1: Is it diverse enough, is it glossy enough? Is it

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Speaker 1: you know? Is it gonna work? Like I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to bullshit you and pretend that it was very well meaning,

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Speaker 1: because there were pieces of it that weren't well meaning.

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Speaker 1: There were pieces of it that were like, is this

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Speaker 1: gonna look good on a page? And I hate that that's.

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Speaker 2: What it was. But it was.

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Speaker 1: So she checked a lot of boxes in that regard,

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Speaker 1: and she knew it, and she worked it, and she

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Speaker 1: worked it all the way to the slammer.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break eder back.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's heard of fake it till you make it, and

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Speaker 2: it's especially a thing in tech and media. Uber famously

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Speaker 2: has never turned a profit. But when does fake it

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Speaker 2: till you make it cross over from an ethos to

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Speaker 2: an actual crime? Just ask the folks at Ozzi Media,

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Speaker 2: whose CEO Carlos Watson was arrested earlier this year for

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Speaker 2: fraud for allegedly overvaluing his media company's audience in an

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Speaker 2: attempt to defraud investors. According to journalist Ben Smith at

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Speaker 2: the New York Times, the company COO and co founder

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Speaker 2: Samir Rau even went so far As disguising his voice

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Speaker 2: to impersonate a YouTube executive on a conference call with

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Speaker 2: Goldman Sachs in an attempt to secure a forty million

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Speaker 2: dollar investment. Stories like this one and Faranos makes clear

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Speaker 2: how much of the shiny, flashy success can just be

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Speaker 2: a grift, one that is buttressed by tech press failing

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Speaker 2: to peek behind the curtain and ask the right questions,

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Speaker 2: questions like what's going on here? How are you making money?

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Speaker 2: Is this whole thing legit? Do you think that there

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Speaker 2: are ways that there are tech people who are kind

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Speaker 2: of playing that game today where you kind of I

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Speaker 2: don't want to use the word trick, but you know

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Speaker 2: how to play the game. And you know that journalists

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Speaker 2: and media folks might also have deadlines, might also want

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Speaker 2: their their piece to look a certain way. So they're

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Speaker 2: just like, we're not going to ask too many critical questions.

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Speaker 2: We're just going to run with this and if it

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Speaker 2: turns out to be a scam, well phobe.

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Speaker 1: It one hundred percent. This is like when we talk

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Speaker 1: about my SO, I like, I I have a nose

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Speaker 1: for this. I get to my DNA as much as I,

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Speaker 1: you know, often entertain the idea of going into another

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Speaker 1: industry like I can't. It just keeps pulling me back in.

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Speaker 1: But these this is why, because I often have these

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Speaker 1: conversations like I don't understand this, Like I don't understand

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Speaker 1: they're there. I get the optics of it, I get

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Speaker 1: why it works and why they're getting the press, but

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Speaker 1: I don't get there there. And I'm going to tell

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Speaker 1: you that Ozzie Media. I was talking about Ozzie Media

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Speaker 1: in my for what It's Worth. I mean, I have

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Speaker 1: no evidence of this and credit where's due to bed Smith?

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Speaker 1: But like I was talking about Azzimedia forever because I

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Speaker 1: remember those three years when Ozzi Fest was trying and

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Speaker 1: they could never do an actual Azzi Fest. But I

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Speaker 1: remember seeing ads on the subway and the tickets were expensive,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, who's going to these things? And

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Speaker 1: also like, more pressingly, how did they get that talent?

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Speaker 1: Because having tried to book events at Hurst and Forbes,

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Speaker 1: I know that it's hard to get even one person

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Speaker 1: to agree, let alone all those people to agree without

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Speaker 1: paying them, So like are they getting paid and if so,

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Speaker 1: where's the money coming from? Like I had very like

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Speaker 1: basic questions about how this all worked. And so it

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Speaker 1: wasn't surprising to me when it was all smoke and mirrors.

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Speaker 1: But I have those conversations all the time. There are

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Speaker 1: some women and men, but some women in the space

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Speaker 1: that I often like, I have this parlor game I

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Speaker 1: play with some friends. It's like how does what's It's like,

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Speaker 1: how does this person get by? That's the game I play,

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Speaker 1: How does this person get by? Because I see I

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Speaker 1: see this like world of success and a business, but

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Speaker 1: I don't see that business in the wild, right, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't see people using the company, the product. I

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Speaker 1: don't see the copy, the content. I don't understand how

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Speaker 1: it works. And maybe I'm just not that smart or

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Speaker 1: maybe I don't understand the business. But like I sometimes

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Speaker 1: ask myself, how is that a thing? And then I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're playing a media game. That has to be the

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Speaker 1: only answer.

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Speaker 2: Well, that really goes back to Elizabeth Elizabeth Holmes, where

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Speaker 2: like there is so much fake it till you make it.

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Speaker 2: I have that same thing where I look at people.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot of men, but not all men, who

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Speaker 2: are building media products, right, And it's like part of

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Speaker 2: me is like I don't understand how they have this

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Speaker 2: much funding, how they have this many people on their masthead,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem like people are reading this, like

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Speaker 2: are people subscribed? But I just don't know, like how

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Speaker 2: is the mathmathing on this? And I do think there's

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Speaker 2: this there is this dynamic of people faking it till

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Speaker 2: they make it, and you're not supposed to really peek

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Speaker 2: behind the curtain because if you did, you might see

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Speaker 2: that it's a house of cards or it's a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a grift.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And now that I'm a little older, a

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Speaker 1: little wiser, a little more bruised from you know, certain

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Speaker 1: people or things that I myself pushed in those you know,

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Speaker 1: raw ra days, I this is partly what I do

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Speaker 1: with Hazmat Hotel, is I ask those questions like is

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Speaker 1: this really someone we should be covering with this much

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Speaker 1: breathless you know, like eye eyes, wide saucer eyes, kind

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Speaker 1: of bullishness, or is this something we should be a

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Speaker 1: little more skeptical about? And so like the Elizabeth Holmes thing,

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Speaker 1: that story that ran recently, the one you know, after

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Speaker 1: she'd been convicted, and it was like the Madonna and

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Speaker 1: Child picture now like a notorious picture that they ran

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Speaker 1: in the business section. If I recall, like, to me,

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Speaker 1: that was scandalous, Like I actually, I think it's a

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Speaker 1: testament to how fractured media is that it wasn't a

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Speaker 1: bigger scandal because that it managed to pass all those

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Speaker 1: checkpoints and get not just the coverage but the length.

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Speaker 1: Do you know how expensive it is to commission a

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Speaker 1: photographer for a shoot like that? There were wardrobe changes

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Speaker 1: in that shoot. There was probably a stylist on that shoot.

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Speaker 1: Now did Elizabeth Holmes pay for it? I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but like we're talking, this was like a resource intensive

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Speaker 1: shoot for a newspaper, you know. Over I think it

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Speaker 1: was like three jumps front page and then two and

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Speaker 1: then spread. So like that's that's an investment of a story.

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Speaker 1: And so that response afterwards that like oh it's winking,

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Speaker 1: you know, like there's a winking aspect to the store.

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Speaker 1: You just don't get the joke. No, no, no, no, no, no no

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Speaker 1: no no. We don't do that at the Times, like

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Speaker 1: you're not GQ. You don't get you know, like no,

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Speaker 1: and also like don't talk down to me that you

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Speaker 1: and ps. I love the New York Times. I love

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Speaker 1: and hate the New York Times. It's like it's my

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Speaker 1: Bete noir. I'm like obsessed with the times, but I

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Speaker 1: just felt like that response did not wash with me.

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Speaker 1: And I was insulted by that response because I felt like, you,

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Speaker 1: of all people, should not go around pretending you're smarter

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Speaker 1: than your audience. Like that's not cool, that's not the

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Speaker 1: deal we have with each other. That, oh you didn't

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Speaker 1: get the joke, it was a winking story. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: Well that bothered me.

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Speaker 2: What do you make of that response? Because I read

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Speaker 2: the Vanity Fair piece about how the profile came to

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Speaker 2: be and they were like, oh, it wasn't a pr piece,

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Speaker 2: like it was pitched to us and it was all

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Speaker 2: above board. It certainly didn't sound that way. I agree

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Speaker 2: with you. But I read another take that was like,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's a piece about how easy it is for

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Speaker 2: you to get conned and the reporter also got scammed

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Speaker 2: by Elizabeth, and it sort of meant to be like

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Speaker 2: a like a warning piece about how easy it is

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Speaker 2: to fall for a grifter. What do you what do

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Speaker 2: you take of that? Of that or what do you

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Speaker 2: make of that response?

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Speaker 1: Well, this is exactly what I mean when I say,

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Speaker 1: you know, the winking aspect of it, and why I

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Speaker 1: didn't wash with me for starters like, look, we're in

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Speaker 1: an era now where you have a nanosecond. Even The

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Speaker 1: Times maybe has two nanoseconds with its audience, like it

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Speaker 1: gets the benefit of the doubt. But broadly speaking, like

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Speaker 1: we're in an era where the competition for your attention

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Speaker 1: is ruthless. So as I tell you know my colleagues

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Speaker 1: at GEO and beyond, you don't get the benefit of

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Speaker 1: sitting on the reader's shoulder and whispering in their ear.

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Speaker 1: It's tongue in cheek. The idea that you have that

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Speaker 1: is is ludicrous, it's laughable, and it's ridiculous, Like it's

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Speaker 1: on its face it's ridiculous. And in the business section,

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Speaker 1: no less, not the style, like all of it just

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Speaker 1: didn't was like irritated me that that that's what we're

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Speaker 1: going to go out with, that's the that's the narrative

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Speaker 1: we're going to go out with. This. It was a

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Speaker 1: total come on, It was a total pr thing. Listen,

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Speaker 1: if I got a call that said you can have

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Speaker 1: the pre jail Elizabeth Holmes for a Q and A

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Speaker 1: hell yeah, I would take it. But that's not the issue.

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Speaker 1: The issue is not that they took an interview with her.

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Speaker 1: It's how it was packaged and how it was and

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Speaker 1: how it was delivered to us at this moment in time.

430
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 1: Her crime maybe not as worse as you know, the

431
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: we work guy, but like according to who right like

432
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 1: her crime she heard people. She defrauded people. So not

433
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: only is the issue this like you know, this a

434
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: notion that we didn't get the nature of the story,

435
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: but also you're giving three pages of real estate to

436
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 1: a woman who's had plenty of ink by the way,

437
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: and has been convicted of very serious crimes. Like I

438
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: just that bothers me. For every story you do, there's

439
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,359
Speaker 1: a story you're not doing. We're in the age of

440
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: limited restore for media, like notoriously, these resources are scarce,

441
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: even at a company like The Times, So I forever

442
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 1: story you're doing, there's a story you're not doing. And

443
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: that's what I spent a lot of time thinking about,

444
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: why did this story pass muster? So like, for example,

445
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: what caught my eye just recently was you know, I

446
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: can't remember if it was Twitter or threads, but Washington,

447
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: the Washington Post was pushing a newsletter about Barbie, which

448
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: blew my fucking mind because Washington Post a newsletter which

449
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: is a separate product that requires resources. It requires some

450
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: engineering support, it requires product support, it requires editorial support,

451
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: so lots of different stakeholders, resource intensive. It has to

452
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: be populated with content, has to have a calendar like

453
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: these are all things that go into something like that

454
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: about Barbie. So that tells me Barbie's doing phenomenal numbers

455
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: for the Washington Post. Otherwise why would they do it?

456
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: Which is interesting given their audience and their and their

457
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: birth right, their remit. That's caught my eye, and I

458
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: just thought I need to hear more about that. I

459
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: need to understand how that came to be.

460
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: How do you sniff it out? Cause you're no one

461
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 2: is sniffing out these like these questions that need to

462
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 2: be asked in stories like you what gets your alarm

463
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 2: bells ringing when you see something you're like, I don't

464
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: know about this, Like I saw your your story about

465
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: Amazon Prime Day and the way that that was getting coverage,

466
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: which I never thought about it before. How all of

467
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: these different publications are like here are the best deals

468
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: for Amazon Prime Day? Even publications that every other day

469
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: are critical of Amazon and their business practices. How do

470
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: you sniff it out when something just doesn't seem right

471
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: to you.

472
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: I just I'm obsessed with media, Like I'm a media junkie.

473
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: I sound so stupid when you hear yourself say it,

474
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: But I just love media. I love it and I

475
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: hate it. I'm both tortured by it and obsessed with it.

476
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: And I you know, it's like it's just how I'm

477
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: wired at this point. So how do I sniff it out?

478
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. Like I read a lot and I

479
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 1: ask a lot of questions. It's why I got into

480
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: the business. I'm a curious cat. And I also love

481
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: to talk to people. Love to talk to people and

482
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: find out like what's hurting their business, what they're thinking about,

483
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: who's up and coming in their business, who they're afraid of,

484
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: and if they'll talk to me, I will absolutely talk

485
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: to them. So there's just a lot, you know, I

486
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: guess I'm just interested.

487
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: More After a quick break, let's get right back into

488
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,959
Speaker 2: it today. Part of Leea's work is sniffing it out

489
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: when media stories just don't seem right and more times

490
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 2: that I'm proud of. Leah's work has challenged me to

491
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: think outside of my own preconceived frameworks. For instance, back

492
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: in May, I came across a viral TikTok purporting to

493
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: show boxes and boxes of books being removed from a

494
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 2: school library in Florida. Naturally I instantly contextualize this story

495
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: within the larger cond text of book bands happening in

496
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: Florida and across the country. Now, this is obviously a

497
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: real thing that is happening in Florida, but that particular

498
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: thirty second TikTok might not have actually been showing the

499
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: full story. I mean this as a compliment. It might

500
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: not sound like it you often are saying. It's often

501
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: like not what you might think, right, So, like, your

502
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: coverage really challenges me to look beyond my own biases

503
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: or my own understanding of how I think stories come

504
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: together in media, and it doesn't always align with my

505
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 2: conventional wisdoms or you know, biases or whatever I might

506
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 2: be thinking. Like, and you do such a good job

507
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: of pulling back the layers to what's actually going on.

508
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, in particular of that viral TikTok where it

509
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: was like a school library and they had all these

510
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 2: boxes and boxes of books, and presumably these are books

511
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 2: that are being removed from the school library because they're

512
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: inappropriate really feeds into the conversation we're all having about

513
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: things like book bands and you know, books being challenged

514
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: in libraries. You called the school or call the library

515
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: to actually ask what's going on. And there was actually

516
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: more to that story than like that thirty second TikTok.

517
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: What have you believe?

518
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: No, yes, I remember that. It feels like a century ago,

519
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: but I think it might have been a month or

520
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: two ago. Yeah, so there was that viral TikTok of

521
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: like two bins filled with books. So there was the

522
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: knee I guess the knee jerk reaction is what usually

523
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: catches my attention, and then I'm like, huh, you know

524
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: in that case, I also like to test myself, right,

525
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: I like to see if I can find a source

526
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,719
Speaker 1: who's going to give me this scoop quickly. So I'm

527
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: always like, if I see that in the morning, I'll

528
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: buy all my goals to get it done by the

529
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: end of the day because I want to be able

530
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: to tell a reporter despite whatever deadlines you have, you

531
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: can usually get a response by the end of the day.

532
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: So part of it is just me staying on my

533
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: toes in that way. It was pretty easy because I

534
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: think it was Broward County and there's like a Department

535
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: of D there, and they put me in touch with

536
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: their comps person, So I did get an answer by

537
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: the end of the day. Now then sevitable follow up

538
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: I should have done to that was do we believe

539
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: the Department of ED right like they said? If I

540
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: recall correctly, They said that they are.

541
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 3: Oh.

542
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: Yes, there was a settlement. So that was the interesting

543
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: piece of this. I learned from calling the comms person

544
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: at the Department of ED, at the Board of ED

545
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: whatever it is, that there was a lawsuit several years

546
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: ago from black and brown students the parents of them

547
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: because their schools did not have books that were as

548
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: recent as new, as in good quality and like the

549
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: breath of books in their school libraries that the more

550
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: affluent white schools had. So I'm pretty sure it was

551
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: Barra County Pass there was a lawsuit. In the settlement,

552
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 1: they agreed that every ten years or so that they

553
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: were going to upgrade the libraries. They had to by law,

554
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: and so this was part of that settlement. We are

555
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: required to upgrade these books, and these are the books

556
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: that no longer meet our standards because they're old and

557
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: they're dated and whatever. And so that's kind of fascinating

558
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: because that turns the whole narrative on its head. Right, Actually,

559
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: they're complying with a lawsuit that's supposed to provide equity

560
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: for students who might otherwise not get it. And that's like,

561
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: that's an important thing we should be talking about.

562
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 3: Now.

563
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: That's not to say the book bannings are not important,

564
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: that one hundred percent are. But we have a big

565
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: problem in this country of misinformation and people believing that

566
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: there's bias in media. And I do see it sometimes,

567
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: and I think that's an example of it where and

568
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: it's not coming from a venal place, it's not coming

569
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: from a malicious place. It's coming from a place like

570
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: it's easy to believe that it makes sense that that.

571
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: Of course, we're looking at them throwing away books that

572
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: might be, you know, about subjects that we want them

573
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: to learn about. But we have to do our job.

574
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: Leah critiques journalism because she has so much respect for

575
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: the field. Journalists like Evan Gerskovich, the first American journalist

576
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: to be imprisoned in Russia since the Cold war base,

577
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: imprisonment and worse, just for doing their jobs and reporting.

578
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: So journalism is something to be respect affected and protected.

579
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: You've opened the door to my big spiel. My big

580
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: spiel is that journalists want to be seen as a

581
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: noble profession, and there is a nobility to it. But

582
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: to be afforded the rights and privileges that reporters get

583
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: in the courts, in people's minds and culture, you have

584
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: to live up to standards that are a tradition, an

585
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: honor bound tradition of the profession, and that is reporting

586
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: and doing your due diligence. That's like fundamentally the basics

587
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: of it. You need to do your homework and you

588
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: need to make the calls and so. And it has

589
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: real life repercussions because we're seeing courts claw back writes

590
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: and privileges for reporters all the time. We're seeing, you know,

591
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: reporters not be able to maintain confidentiality with sources. In

592
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: certain cases they have to turn over their notes. They're

593
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: being imprisoned for maintaining confidentiality court case after court case.

594
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: This is very worrisome. I know this because I work

595
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: with a for amendment lawyer who's like the top of

596
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: the game. I'm one of the privileges of my job

597
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: is I get to work with this like well known

598
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 1: First Amendment lawyer Ky Falkenberg, So I hear about these

599
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: cases all the time, and so they're having real life

600
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: impact on journalists around the country. So we damn well

601
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: better do our part and not buy into narratives because

602
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: they make for cheap stories. Have I written my share

603
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: of them? You bet I have, and I am embarrassed

604
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: by them. I am regretful of them, and I hope

605
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: I never repeat them. But like, these are the lessons

606
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: we have to learn from the last decade, and it

607
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: pains me to no end to see you know, reporters

608
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: like just like I think it's something we need to

609
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: champion as a group. We have this, you know, this

610
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: poor Wall Street journal reporter stuck in a Russian jail

611
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: for doing exactly what he should be doing for reporting,

612
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, for reporting, and he you know, he's missing

613
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: his family, he's he's probably suffering. Lord knows what we

614
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: can't take for granted that there are repercussions to what

615
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: we do. I think it's very serious our jobs, and

616
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: it is a noble profession, but then we have to

617
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: do our part to live up to what makes it noble.

618
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: We have to report, we have to like make the calls.

619
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: It's that simple. That's how I see it.

620
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: I briefly worked in a newsroom, and I could see

621
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: myself just seeing that TikTok, for instance, and just writing

622
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: it up like this gave me a big emotional reaction

623
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: that aligned with my preconceived biases or my understanding of

624
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: the world, and not picking up the phone and making

625
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: that call, not doing the work of actually getting that

626
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: there's more to the story than what I just saw

627
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: on this TikTok. I'm really grateful that you're modeling how

628
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: to not just fall right into that like easy story,

629
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: easy write up, and tell a fuller story because it

630
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: really matters well.

631
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: I appreciate hearing that I've certainly know endured my shirt

632
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: blowback for having that opinion, because I think it's often

633
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: confused or conflated with conservatism, and I absolutely do not

634
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 1: identify as a conservative. I think I'm pretty upfront with

635
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: my politics, which is also odd for a journalist. But

636
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: I will tell you this, like one of the most

637
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: memorable conversations I've had was during covid. I started this

638
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: podcast because I was like, you know, home like everybody

639
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: else was, and I wanted to stay sharp. So I

640
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: taught myself had a podcast, and part of it was

641
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: just like figuring out who to talk to. I need

642
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: to talk to smart people who have thoughts on what's happening.

643
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: And one of the first conversations I had was with

644
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: Errol Lewis, and Erra Lewis is New York famous, like

645
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: he's New York One reporter, like like old school, like

646
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 1: this guy is it right? But he also appears on

647
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: I forget what network, but he appears on cable all

648
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: the time. He's just he just knows his shit. Era

649
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: Lewis is the guy and I had a nice conversation,

650
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: like I really memorable. I remember like listening to it

651
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 1: again and again after because what he said was so

652
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: so it was profound, like I'd never thought about it

653
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: like that. We talked about objectivity, which is the hot

654
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: button issue for journalists right now, and he was like, look,

655
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: I have opinions. I don't shy away from sharing my opinions,

656
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: but they're informed, like nobody knows this town better than

657
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: I do. When I show up to a meeting and

658
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: I'm covering it. I know exactly what happened at the

659
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: ten meetings before. I know who the players are, and

660
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: I know why they're saying what they're saying. So I

661
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: come to it with this breath and with this experience

662
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: that is not challenged. By the way, you will never

663
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: hear anyone challenge Erra Lewis for bias. Why because he

664
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: did the work. He did the work, and so I

665
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: thought that's so interesting, Like, yes, of course, of course,

666
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: you're a human being, Like you're not one hundred percent objective.

667
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: You have feelings about this issue, you believe in right

668
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 1: and wrong, you believe some issues fall on certain sides,

669
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: and you're you know, And he doesn't necessarily write it

670
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: like down the line, but it's informed and he brings

671
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: that expertise to the four and I think that's that

672
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: for me, was like, that's become my north star. Whether

673
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: he realizes or not, but he had a real impact

674
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: on me. That conversation.

675
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 2: That girl Boss lean in era that allowed Elizabeth Holmes

676
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: to rise up in the ranks has kind of come

677
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: and gone. And after all that, all that flash and

678
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: promise around women in the twenty tens, today it's kind

679
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: of hard to not feel like we're in a bit

680
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 2: of a rougher place. But one truth is that, with

681
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: all its flaws, women's media has always been there telling

682
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: our stories and speaking to us, even when other types

683
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: of media.

684
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: Work it's a super fraud conversation. When I was at

685
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: Murray Clare, there were some things that were inviolable, right,

686
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: women's abortion, women's reproductive rights, gay rights, LGBTQ rights. There

687
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: were certain values that the women's magazine was not negotiable

688
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: on this, certainly this one, and I think that's true

689
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: across women's media written large. There are certain things if

690
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: you're going to be and we don't speak of them.

691
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: We just not We just live them. We say that

692
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: because for decades women's magazines this like afterthought in media,

693
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: This looked down upon category occupied a very i won't

694
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: even say protected, but like a special place. We were

695
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: in nail salons, We were in hair salons, places that

696
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: men weren't, and so we could have conversations with you

697
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: that you couldn't have at home, because your husband would

698
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: beat the shit out of you if you talked to

699
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: him about it. Right, we could talk about how like,

700
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: oh I got a terrible sonogram back and I'm not

701
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 1: sure I can keep this baby, or oh my husband's

702
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: beating me, or oh I you know, I'm not satisfied sexually.

703
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: Like these were stories that women's media was telling, and

704
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: we can hold our nose up at them and say, oh,

705
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 1: women in peril, and you know they they codified certain

706
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: stereotypes of women, and there's they're sure, like we can

707
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: have that discussion, but we also need to talk about

708
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: how this sneered at form of me was the one

709
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: place where you could talk to a woman like she

710
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: was in the bathroom at a restaurant and asked for

711
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 1: a tampon, Like you couldn't do that in US Weekly

712
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: or USA Today or People magazine. And so I just

713
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 1: want to like acknowledge you couldn't do that because we

714
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: allowed for women that freedom. And that's part of the

715
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: DNA of this repro rights thing, you know, it just

716
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: it just is we take for granted that it is

717
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: because it was early on it was like this secret,

718
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: private forum we could have discussions where we didn't judge women.

719
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: Maybe we judge them about their weight, We definitely did that.

720
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: We judged them about their skin and their age. We

721
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: one hundred percent did that. But we also talked to

722
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: them about the you know, like nothing is as black

723
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: and white as like good bad. It was a very

724
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: nuanced thing and so strange. But it's hard to have

725
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: nuanced conversations about media with media people.

726
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: Do you ever worry that I don't even know how

727
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: to phrase this.

728
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna get canceled?

729
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they think get do you word? Is this something

730
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 2: that because you you say what's on your mind and

731
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: you tell it like it is. I don't always agree,

732
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: like I'm always sometimes all read things and I'm like, ah,

733
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: that hits me, that hits me weird, but it's not

734
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 2: not true.

735
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 3: Uh.

736
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: Do you worry about being too outspoken or saying the

737
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: wrong thing?

738
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 3: Sure?

739
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: I mean my husband hates it, you know, he's just like,

740
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, what are you doing it? It's not that

741
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: it's like I don't know. I guess Like I'm a

742
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: middle aged person who's been in media for twenty five years.

743
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: I've seen the best of our business. I've seen the

744
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: worst of our business. But I've also seen like the

745
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: very thing that I love about this business, like the

746
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: wanting to talk about things and talk to people and

747
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: hear what they have to say, whether you like it

748
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 1: or not, Like I just don't like that we're becoming

749
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: resistant to it. And I get it, Like I get it.

750
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: I get why I don't have a trans child who's

751
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: rights are up for grabs. I'm not raising a kid

752
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: who you know, I'm not looking for, you know, like

753
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: I don't have as much on the line as a

754
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: lot of other people do. And so I get that.

755
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't appreciate the stakes, but there's something about

756
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: not being able to talk about it, not like I

757
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: don't like that I'm the only person or like that

758
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: comes with risks, Like I don't like that we're not

759
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: supposed to talk about things, Like what's wrong with talking

760
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: about things? I'm not I'm not like trying to shove

761
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: policy down your throat. I'm just trying to have a conversation.

762
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand the world a little better, trying

763
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: to understand like we should be able to talk. You know,

764
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: I've been spending a lot of time with I've been

765
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: spending a lot of time watching Phil Donahue.

766
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: Ooh, oh my god, my mom would If my mom

767
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: were here, she would be so down for a conversation

768
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 2: about Donna Yu. I saw your tweet about wanting like

769
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: we need a documentary, like a look back.

770
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: Yes, and it makes me feel very old that you

771
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: reference your mother. Maybe as old as your mother.

772
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: No, no, not yet. No if he just happened. Still

773
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: love Donahue.

774
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: I love Donahue. He was on after school when I

775
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: got home, and I remember it was the first time

776
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: I'd seen anyone with AIDS. I can still remember that

777
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: episode with Ryan White and Jeanie White. It was the

778
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: first time i'd seen you know gay in talk about

779
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: you know being gay. But I just remember, like there

780
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: wasn't the chair throwing that came afterwards, right, like it's

781
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: not it's not new to this era. We saw that

782
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: shortly after. But he had a way about him that

783
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 1: felt like I don't know if it was the error

784
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: or him or maybe a bit of both, but he

785
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: had a way about him that opened the floor to

786
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 1: people to talk about how they really felt and want

787
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: what they could learn from someone who didn't feel that way,

788
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: And there was something like nonjudgmental about it. And he

789
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: also pushed like if you watch some of those episodes,

790
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: he would push them so, but why do youth, you know,

791
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: like he was pushy, and I just there's like it

792
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: was special. It was like a special thing to watch

793
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: because he did not shy from hot button issues. We

794
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: could never there could never be a sho like that

795
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: right now, never ever, ever, ever, and why not? It

796
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: was like, why can't we just talk to each other anyway?

797
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: I sound corny, but that's how I feel.

798
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: No, it doesn't. It doesn't sound corny at all. I

799
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: can't wait to if younger listeners are like who, I

800
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 2: can't wait to spark a Donna Hue.

801
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, render for Donna Hue renaissance.

802
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: The New York Times magazine's profile of Elizabeth Holmes and

803
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 2: the collective grown it inspired from readers makes me wonder

804
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 2: if we've just moved past the shine of the big

805
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: important public figure profile piece in general. Take that now

806
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: infamous Megan Markle profile and the Cut, for instance, what

807
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: probably would have been a standard profile about her thoughts

808
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: on parenthood and her morning routine included one small detail

809
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 2: that gave readers a quick glance beyond the polished pr

810
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: talking points and preapproved subjects that were used to in

811
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 2: these kinds of profiles. The profile says that Megan sometimes

812
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 2: sounds like she has a tiny bachelor producer in her

813
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: brain directing what she says. At one point in our conversation,

814
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: the piece reads, instead of answering a question, she will

815
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: suggest how I might transcribe the noise she's making. She's

816
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: making these gunneral sounds, and I can't quite articulate what

817
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: it is she's feeling in the moment because she has

818
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 2: no word for it. She's just moaning. Now, that little

819
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 2: detail about the noise that Megan makes before answering a

820
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 2: question seemingly confirmed what we all know, that a famous

821
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 2: person's public persona is actually carefully manufactured, and it proved

822
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: just too good to resist. But in this day and age,

823
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 2: what exactly is the celebrity profile?

824
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 3: Like?

825
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 2: What is it and who is it for? At best,

826
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 2: they feed the live that celebrities aren't just like us

827
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: when we all know that of course they're not. And

828
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: at worse, they help scammers like Elizabeth Holmes rise to power.

829
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to you about the Elizabeth Holmes'

830
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: profile and sort of how that was a thing. You

831
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: made a really interesting point about this profile of Megan Markle.

832
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 2: I think in the cut where you know it's a

833
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: song profile about her life blah blah blah. And there's

834
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 2: one little bit where she gives the author like suggestions

835
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: of how she might be able to describe a specific

836
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: little noise that she made, and that tiny, little throwaway

837
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 2: thing became the thing, right, so there's a whole profile

838
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: that was the thing that people zeroed in on. Do

839
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: you think that we're I don't know, kind of beyond

840
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 2: the usefulness of the problem the public profile, like, what

841
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: are your thoughts on how how that is evolving as

842
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 2: a media product.

843
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: I find them mostly boring. A lot of magazines do

844
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: them because it's part of the trade off with the

845
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 1: entertainment industry. It's a business. It's a business decision to

846
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 1: cover to write a certain profile. You know, you'll see

847
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: them in all kinds of media for whether it's a

848
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: CEO or what have you. But it's a trade off, like,

849
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: make no mistake about it. But occasionally you'll get a

850
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: story like that where something is revealed, right and it's

851
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: not off, and that something is revealed about someone who

852
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: we think we know everything about, and that's interesting to me.

853
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: So in the case of Elizabeth Holmes, it revealed something

854
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: about the paper and not Elizabeth, which I thought was interesting,

855
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 1: but like a process that you didn't know could happen there.

856
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: But in the case of Megan Markle, like what I

857
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: found astonishing about it was that it did. It was

858
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: contrarian because at the time here in the US, there

859
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: was this especially coast on the coasts, there was this

860
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: like we must protect her, this kind of vibe, right,

861
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: like she deserves our protection. She's you know, she's being

862
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 1: vilified for her race. It's racist and and in fact

863
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: that might be true. But there was like something that

864
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: went against that narrative in that piece, and it was

865
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: brave because doing so opened up the reporter to you know,

866
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: all the kind of kinds of attacks that we see

867
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: on social media now and we don't like what someone says,

868
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: but it revealed something pretty amazing, and it confirmed this

869
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 1: kind of you know, other narrative about her, that it's

870
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: all contrived, that it's all manufactured. I mean, it literally

871
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: confirmed that, like you couldn't pick a better which is

872
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: partly why it was so juicy and delicious and tasty,

873
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: because she's literally confirming that this whole thing is artifice,

874
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: not that I think it is, but that it actually is.

875
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: And I thought that was just really an incredible detail

876
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: for the writer to put in, But how could she

877
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 1: not write, like, Wow, what a thing to have happened

878
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: in an interview with celebrity. I've done a few celebrity profiles.

879
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 1: They're always negotiated to the nth degree, which is partly

880
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 1: why I find them so boring, because publicists are so

881
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: wrapped up in them. It's very rare to get a

882
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: piece with someone where a published publicist is not negotiating

883
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: everything from where it's at.

884
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 2: Oh no, she.

885
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,959
Speaker 1: Doesn't want to go to a restaurant because she doesn't

886
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,479
Speaker 1: want to be seen or you know whatever. You can't

887
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: talk about the marriage. She doesn't want to talk about

888
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: the marriage, and you know, oh she you know, don't

889
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: ask her about anything political because you we're not talking

890
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: about that. Like everything is so you know, it's just

891
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: like so massaged that I already know, having seen the

892
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: Sausage get Mede, that so much of it is bullshit.

893
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: So I rarely find them interesting, And I would love

894
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: to see data that shows if people actually get through

895
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: these pieces, because I don't think they don't. I don't

896
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: think they do. I'm trying to think of the last

897
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: profile I read. I can't remember, but they're just like

898
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: as an art forum, they're like they're just they are

899
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: for an era when we didn't have as much access

900
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: to celebrities as we do now, so they are a

901
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: very dated art form in my mind.

902
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: I remember being part of a team that worked on

903
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: one with a famous woman and I don't want to

904
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: say who it is, but people can probably guess. She

905
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: had just been married to a high profile political the family,

906
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,399
Speaker 2: a high profile political family. But the list of things

907
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: that we were not supposed to talk about, we could

908
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 2: not even allude to this wedding, this recent wedding, And

909
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 2: so basically it was like, what the hell are we

910
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 2: going to talk about? Like this?

911
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: This is what do you think people want to talk about?

912
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 3: Right?

913
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 2: It's like, if you're reading this profile, you're gonna want

914
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 2: to talk about this recent marriage, right, Like what else

915
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: would you want to read about? And it was like,

916
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 2: oh no, not even you can't even allude to it

917
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: in the most oblique of ways. It was like, well, then,

918
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 2: how is this going to be an interesting piece that

919
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 2: anybody wants to read? This is the one thing that

920
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 2: people have on their mind when it comes to this person.

921
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: Well, so this goes back to I don't want to

922
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: like make it a larger point, but it is part

923
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: of a larger point in that it's partly it contributes

924
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: to this overall awakening that people are having about media,

925
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: that they're wise to the game and they resent it.

926
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: So that game is because we need the celebrity, We

927
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: need the we need the access to the other celebrities

928
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: in that publicist roster. We need the studio not to

929
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: be mad at us, because then they'll invite us to

930
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: important events and also maybe advertise with us, you know,

931
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: or or the beauty brand that that person is an

932
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: ambassador for. We need their advertise and we want to

933
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: piss them off, and like there's a whole like business

934
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: behind those decisions, and people are wise to it. One

935
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: of the one of the most frequent questions I got

936
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: asked when I was at Marie Claire and even after,

937
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: was you know, oh, tell me what mescarity use, or

938
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: tell like a makeup question, or oh I saw that

939
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: in the magazine. And I would always be like, you

940
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: don't really believe that they're they like that, right, because

941
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: it was obvious to me that it was all part

942
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: of this like game about you know, And I learned

943
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: actually I learned, you know, there are certain number of

944
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: credits that credits being appearances in the magazine that a

945
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: brand is either formally or informally allowed, like oh, that

946
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: we owe them credits. I used to hear that all

947
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: the time, like we have to put this on your page.

948
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: You're doing a career Q and A with so and so,

949
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: but I need to put this shoe on the page.

950
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: So we're going to do a sidebar of things you

951
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: should wear to your work when you're going out afterwards.

952
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: So because we owe this brand credits like they're not,

953
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, there's it's a business behind those decisions. It's

954
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: sad but true, and I think people are wise to it.

955
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 2: So I don't consider myself to be like a media insider,

956
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 2: but for just your average consumer of magazines media, how

957
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 2: important do you think it is to be sort of

958
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 2: aware of how the sausage has made the business decisions

959
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 2: that go into what we're reading in the media that

960
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: we're consuming.

961
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: I think it's very important. Magazines is already such an

962
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: anachronistic term. So whatever content you're consuming, wherever you're consuming it, right,

963
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 1: you should one hundred percent be aware of you know,

964
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: of what metabolic processes led to that moment. Now, that

965
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you have to sit with it. And I

966
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: also don't think it's your responsibility. Like, you know, there

967
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: is something to be said for being an informed reader,

968
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: but there's also something to be said for being a

969
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: responsible journalist. And I just want, I guess, I just

970
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: want people to be aware of why we make the

971
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: choices we do as a business, as you know, as

972
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: a profession. So like the whole uh, you know, when

973
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: a movie comes out, there's a premiere, you're going to

974
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: see that that celebrity do a round robin of interviews.

975
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: All those outlets are going to try to get the

976
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: celebrity to say something off the cuff. It never happens.

977
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 1: Sometimes it happens like it's all just such canned garbage,

978
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: and it's it's like, we have to be a little

979
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: better now, I think because the audiences are wiser, and

980
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: what's the net result of that. They're going to TikTok

981
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: and they're going elsewhere where they can get a little

982
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 1: more authenticity from anywhere from people who you know, it's

983
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,439
Speaker 1: like we've seen the diminished value of celebrity culture, which

984
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: it's not. I don't have an opinion on It's just

985
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 1: fascinating that people are turning to forums where they are

986
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 1: getting authenticity and less makeup and less bullshit they're getting.

987
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: They want the real, real and I get it. I

988
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: get why, because we're feeding them can shit and telling them,

989
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: look how awesome this is, and they now know what awesome.

990
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

991
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: just want to say hi? You can read us at

992
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 2: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts

993
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

994
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

995
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland

996
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 2: is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and

997
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

998
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 2: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

999
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 2: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1000
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 2: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1001
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 2: get your podcasts.