1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business of Sports. The world changing and 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: what are the things we can do to transform our 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: business and engage our fans globally in different ways, people 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: are using their name and likeness to create more opportunities, 5 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: more stakes and companies. In order to turn the organization around, 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: we had to turn it around not only just on 7 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: baseball operations side, but other business operations side well, and 8 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: any other sport is very difficult, but I like to 9 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: blub my horizons and be able to expand. Sports need 10 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: to be consumed a lot, and not to the big 11 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: competitive advantage for in autual property holders of sports content 12 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: in the media landscape. Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. Well, 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 1: can this is just a thrill to talk to you. 14 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: First of all, congratulations on this film. I was telling 15 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: you just before we started recording. I finished watching it. 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: It's haunting in a lot of ways, unbelievably relevant. And 17 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: you know what's so amazing about your work is you 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: take your time on this and so clearly you couldn't 19 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: have anticipated how relevant and timely it is. And so 20 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: I have to ask you, why, Ali, Why now? Well, 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: first of all, the there's no uh now I mean, 22 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: we started this six seven years ago, so that there's 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: a kind of accident of doing that. I'm thrilled that 24 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: you like it. Please let me take this time to 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: tell you that this film is co directed by Sarah 26 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: Burns and David McMahon and myself and Sarah and David 27 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: wrote the script, and we three plus Stephanie Jenkins are 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: the producer, and there's a handful of editors and assistant 29 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: editors and co producers that have found the footage and 30 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: found the still photographs. By taking time, we can do 31 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: a deep dive. By doing a deep dive, we can 32 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: get undertow and nuance and contradiction and allow a much 33 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: more fuller portrait than the kind of baggage that we carry. 34 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: You know, I had my own Muhammad Ali baggage, and 35 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: I tell you it's on some carousel in some other city, 36 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: and it's been gone for years and years. I'm thrilled 37 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: to say. And what you're left with is this incredibly 38 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: moving story of one of the great Americans of all time. 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: Forget about adding sports to it. We know he's the 40 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: greatest uh boxer, of the greatest athlete of the twentieth 41 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: century or so says most of the media. But he's 42 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: one of the great Americans, and he shows it again 43 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: and again in in not just his successes, but also 44 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: in his failure, not just in his great attributes, but 45 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: also in the mistakes that he makes. And that's of 46 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: course true of all of us. But when it's somebody 47 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: writ large as Muhammad Ali, you realize, you know, there 48 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: are a lot of great documentaries about him that have 49 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: already been made, often about a particular fight, sometimes about 50 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: a couple of years, his battle with the United States 51 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: over induction into the air and forces. But we were 52 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: interested in the whole of him, from his birth and 53 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 1: childhood in Jim Crow segregated Louisville, Kentucky, to his death 54 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: by Parkinson's not but a few years ago, five years ago, 55 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: in a suburb of Phoenix, Arizona. So in that span 56 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: he intersects with all the major themes of the last 57 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: half of the twentieth century, the role of sports, the 58 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: nature of the black athlete, faith, religion, politics, war, and 59 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: of course race, not to mention the personal dimensions of 60 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: family and faithfulness and and things like that. And and 61 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: we find in every film that when we wake up 62 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: after attending and I swear to you we attend most 63 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: assiduously for years to getting the story right. We wake 64 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: up and realize it's talking about everything we're talking about today. 65 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: And that's true of Muhammad Ali. It was true of 66 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War film. It was true of the Civil War. 67 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: It's true of any film we've done. Mark Twain is 68 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: supposed to have said history doesn't repeat itself, but at rhymes, 69 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: and we don't know. We don't have to go looking 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: for those rhymes. It doesn't matter when we start the film. 71 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: Whatever you do in the history in history, if you 72 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: do it well, whether it's years ago, fifty years go, 73 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty years ago. We're just finishing a 74 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: film on Benjamin Franklin, it rhymes. It's so true. And 75 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: and yet I will say that I feel like I 76 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: have heard Ali's name more in the past two to 77 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: three years, maybe the last eighteen months. Uh then I 78 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: had for the previous few and and and we'll go 79 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: back aways, but I do want to talk about that 80 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: immediate cultural relevance, the echoes that he has, whether it's 81 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: with Lebron James, whether it's with Colin Kaepernick. He is 82 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: being called out and called upon. His legacy is being 83 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: called upon. Why do you think that is? I think 84 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: there's a simple couple of words. One is freedom. He 85 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: insisted on being free all his life. That's a big 86 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: American theme. But for a black person doing that, we 87 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: we'd have to admit. I don't think there's anybody within 88 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: the sound of my voice who wouldn't admit that. That's, 89 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: even in America, a fairly complicated proposition, and they're going 90 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: to be obstacles own up to his attempt to be 91 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: free on his own terms. Uh. The other word is courageous. 92 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: He does some courageous stands. He takes the stand in 93 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: favor of his faith and against um the war in Vietnam, 94 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: and he pays for it dearly sentenced to five years 95 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: in prison. He loses three and a half years of 96 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: his life. Is a is a very complicated, dramatic story. 97 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: So when we think about the modern athlete today, you 98 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: can you can say, maybe John Carlos and Tommy Smith 99 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: in in uh, the Mexico City Olympics, you know, they 100 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: really lost everything. UM Kurt Flood standing up against the 101 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: reserve clause, a black man trying to get rid of 102 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: the old plantation system in baseball gone. It would take 103 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: two guys, Messrs Schmidt and McNally, two white guys to 104 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: begin the process that would undo that pernicious thing, the 105 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: reserve clause. And then there's Colin Kaepernick. They paid, They 106 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 1: paid the price. Um. So when we hear people talking 107 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: whether the goats in their particular sport or not, it's 108 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: still not. On the same term of Muhammad Ali who 109 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: said he'd face a firing squad, he'd say I'd face 110 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: a machine gun tomorrow rather than abandoned my faith. And 111 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: that kind of courage, that kind of strength is impossible 112 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: to deny, and so we find him as a source 113 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: of inspiration for lots of people to get to get 114 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: Towards the end of the film, you see a young 115 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: black woman on the Brooklyn Bridge protesting. We've made sure 116 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: you don't really read what the protest is, and she's 117 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: wearing a black T shirt with the simple white letters 118 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: Mohammad Ali. That was all she needed to say, that 119 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: was all she needed to sort of plant her foot 120 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: and say no right now. And I find that incredibly inspiring. 121 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: And having delved with Sarendive and our team for years 122 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: and years trying to get inside this guy. You're just 123 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: amazed at what a powerful, a bulliant, beautiful human being 124 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: he was, even with all the flaws that were, as 125 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: you saw, unafraid to detail. Well, and it's it's fascinating 126 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: too can to to look at this film and and 127 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: recall or in some in many people's cases, learn how 128 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: controversial he was, how disliked he was. And that's not 129 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: a strong enough word, especially when hated. Yeah, and and 130 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: and it's interesting. I was talking with my my eighteen 131 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: year old about this, and I was telling him a 132 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: little bit about the film and and about the complicated, 133 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: to say, the least relationship that America and the world 134 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: had with him. And and he that was a surprise 135 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: to him. But because in the shorthand, Muhammad Ali today 136 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: is heroic, but you remind us in this film he 137 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: was not viewed in that way. Tell me more about that. Well, Well, 138 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: he dies the most beloved person on his planet, which 139 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 1: is you know, almost impossible for anyone else to say 140 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: in the history of humankind. Only a handful of people 141 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: might might fit into that. The writer David Remnick says, 142 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: he's at the end of his life almost revere like 143 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: a Buddha. But people forget how divisive he was. So 144 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: just remember he comes out of the Rome Olympics with 145 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: the gold medal. He's smiling, he's voluble, he knows how 146 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: to talk to a camera and a microphone, and people 147 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: love him. And then he starts bragging and he starts 148 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: saying how beautiful he is, and he does the things 149 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: that athletes are sort of not supposed to do, and 150 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: particularly black black athletes are not supposed to do. And 151 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: so there's a kind of step up, and people talk 152 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: about before the first list and fight, let's shut him up, 153 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: let's put him in his place, and you can hear 154 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,479 Speaker 1: the echoes of what that's about. And then he joins 155 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: after he defeats List, and he publicly joins the Nation 156 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: of Islam, a separatist religious cult. You can't even call 157 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: it a branch of Islam. It's it's got its own problems, 158 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: which we detail um. And then he has already been 159 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: labeled by mainstream media as a as a hate group, 160 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: and there are aspects of it that are are corrupt 161 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: and hate filled, and and they are also the murders 162 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,479 Speaker 1: of Malcolm X, one of their own, whom they expelled. 163 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: And then you know he refuses the draft, and that 164 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,239 Speaker 1: puts him at odds with a majority of American citizens, 165 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: um black as well as white, who are essentially supporting 166 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: the war, at least initially, and he won't budge. He 167 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: knows he could get a coushy job. He knows he'd 168 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: be doing us OH shows and making appearances and mugging 169 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: with with guys. He's not going to do that. And 170 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: it is stunning, and it brings out the worst and 171 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: it brings out the best. He becomes a hero in 172 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: college campuses, a hero to a different new kind of 173 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: black manhood, black masculinity that maybe a generation before Jackie 174 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: Robinson embodied. Now he embodies Jim Brown embodies Um. It's 175 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: a it's a wonderfully complicated story. And then he works 176 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: his way back. You know, he's exonerated by the Supreme Court. 177 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: He loses to Joe Fraser, but in the words of 178 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: the sportswriter Robert Lipsych, he wins America because he's trying 179 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: desperately to get back in the game, which he knows 180 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: he's losing on points, and he gets lord by Frasier 181 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: in the last round, gets up, is willing to fight. 182 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: He takes his defeat in a manly way, even though 183 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: the lead up to the fight he's he's just irresponsible 184 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: and his treatment of of Joe Frasier, calling him things 185 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: that only a white racist would call another black man. 186 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: And this is one black man to another. He's made 187 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: Joe Frasier the hero of white America and he's the 188 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: hero he believes of Black America. It's not his finest moment, 189 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: but he's amazing at the end and begin people by 190 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: this time are beginning to realize, you know, he may 191 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: have been right on Vietnam right then then then he 192 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,599 Speaker 1: works his way and when he wins back the championship 193 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: for the first time, it's one of the most magnificent 194 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: moments in the history of sports of all time. You 195 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: cannot believe that this underdog did what he did, older, 196 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: out of shape and against this you know, formidable opponent, 197 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: George Foreman. It is it's just one of the great 198 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: stories that you can't do. When we've embedded as our 199 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: our secret weapon in the film is Michael Bent, the 200 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: former heavyweight champion. We put inside every one of the 201 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: important fights that we treat to tell those of us 202 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: who are not boxing fans, uh and those who may 203 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: even be repelled by the sport. Just stick around. Here's 204 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: some strategy, here's some tactics. But I'd rather tell you 205 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: about the psychology. I'd rather tell you about the hearts. 206 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: I'd rather tell you about the will and the passion 207 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: and what's going on in a kind of interpersonal subtext here, 208 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: and it makes the fights come alive. And uh, if 209 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: you add the the sportswriters who grew up with him, 210 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: like Sam Kindred and Jerry Eisenberg and Robert Lipside, you 211 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: have the scholars like Sherman Jackson and Gerald Early and 212 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: Todd Boyd, and the writers Walter Mosley and uh David 213 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: Remnick of the New Yorker. And you've got his biographer 214 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: Jonathan Ian. You've got his brother, and you've got two 215 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: of his four wives and two of his daughters. All 216 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're getting and Donna, Aaron don King 217 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: and Bob Aum, two of his promoters who are beginning 218 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: to understand. And then Larry Olms himself makes an important 219 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: appearance in the film, and you begin to understand a 220 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: little bit more who he was from all these different perspectives, 221 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: not just the perspective that most of us understand conventionally. Well, 222 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned the fights because it's also a 223 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: reminder of what cultural touchstones those fights were, how everyone 224 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: literally in the world was focused on that. You know, 225 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: a billion people reported the league. You know, view one 226 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: of the fights. It tell me about that cultural relevance 227 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: of those bouts. Well, you know, the heavyweight champion of 228 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 1: the world was always a big deal, particularly at the 229 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: end of the nineteenth and earliest twentieth century, which made 230 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: Jack Johnson so terrifying because it was presumed that the 231 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: white the white person was the champion, and white people 232 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: had been the champion. And as he began to come 233 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: up and it looked like he had talent, nobody would 234 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: fight him. And then somebody paid this guy named Tommy 235 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: Burns no relation a chance to fight him in Australia, 236 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: and and Jack Johnson wins, and then every white hope 237 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: and great white hope they sent after him are defeated. 238 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: And when they can't beat him in the ring, they 239 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: go after him in court, a kind of mirror of 240 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: Mohammad Ali's uh story. So it meant something who that 241 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: had championship was But by the sixties it had lost 242 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: its luster. The mob had been too much involved for 243 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of decades Liston was mobbed up. 244 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: It just didn't seem like anything. And then along comes 245 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: this guy, this uber American, you know, with all of 246 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: the talents of a promoter and huckster like a P. T. Barnum, 247 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: all of the skill of the greatest athlete of all time, 248 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: and all of the contentious politics and religious beliefs that 249 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: would set some people's you know, teeth on edge. And 250 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: and and he doesn't. So suddenly we care about it. 251 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: I'm caring about fights. I'm a baseball fan. I like 252 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: conventional American sports, like like football and basketball, and particularly baseball. 253 00:13:55,280 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: And and he's riveting. I remember being in film class 254 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: in and somebody had gotten some pirated film of the 255 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: Foreman fight in Cohassa Zaire, like within a month or so, 256 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: the fight, no commercials, no commentary, just silent footage of 257 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: and we would watch it over and over again. Uh, 258 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, and I couldn't believe I was cheering then 259 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: and I'm cheering now at something that is incredibly brutal sport. 260 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: It's called the sweet science, but it's a real sport. 261 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: And let's remember the lead up to the first Frasier fight, 262 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: it was called the fight of the century. It's what 263 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: they also said, um the Jack Johnson fight on July four, 264 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: nineteen ten against Jim Jeffries, who had been brought out 265 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: of out of retirement to put Jack Johnson in his place, 266 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: and it didn't work out so well for Jim Jefferies. 267 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: That was the fight of the century. But I'd argue 268 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: that maybe that first Frasier fight really was, and the 269 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: most of the black world was for Ali and most 270 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: of the white world was for Frasier. That that is, 271 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: of course not completely true. The oddsmakers gave it a 272 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: little edge to Frasier because he had been not in exile. 273 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: The men were each paid, as Jonathan I, Ali's biographer said, 274 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: as much as Henry Aaron, each as much as Henry 275 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: Aaron made in his entire professional baseball career for one 276 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: night's work. So you begin to understand the huge business 277 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: of it, the closed circuit stuff. It's worldwide. As you say, 278 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: We're talking hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people 279 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: tuning into things like this, who are are listening, and 280 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: it becomes these cultural touchstones in which we define ourselves. 281 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: In the seventies by lots of different metrics. The end 282 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: of Vietnam. We're now thinking about it a lot today 283 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: because the Shinook helicopters are taking off from Kabul, but 284 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: also as they did from Saigon. We think about it musically, 285 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, Stevie Wonder or this or that or whoever 286 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: it might be. And we also think about it about 287 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: these central fights, the first Frasier fight, the second Frasier fight, 288 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: the Rumble in the Jungle, the Thrill in Manila, the 289 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: third Frasier fight. This is how we define that decade 290 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: or so. It's um it's pretty amazing, and you know 291 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: where you were and what you were thinking and who 292 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: you were for and and somehow at the end of it, 293 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: and the punishment that he took is going to precipitate 294 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: the debilitating neurological disease he'll get, but in in the 295 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: end he transforms all of it. We're twenty five years 296 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: this summer from his lighting of the torch with that 297 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: shaky hand, and we loved, we loved him for it. 298 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: So much of the you know, problems that many people 299 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: had if they hadn't disappeared already began to melt away, 300 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: and I assume there are a few Ali haters still 301 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: out there, but um, you know, he died the most 302 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: beloved person on his planet, not bad, not bad. Well. 303 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: And and it's so interesting because Walter Moseley had, you know, 304 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: you listed some of the folks that that you interviewed 305 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: for this, and and that cultural touchstone really does come 306 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: through that that all of these people and you talk about, 307 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, some of the really well known writers, whether 308 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: it's Plimpton or Gaytillies or Hunter s. Thompson, Norman Miller. 309 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: Of course you know they're they're covering these fights. But 310 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: Walter Mosley says in nineteen seventy four, and keep me 311 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: honest here, Muhammad Ali is the most important man in 312 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: the world. And that does not seem uh like hyperbole. 313 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: No it doesn't, No, it doesn't. He's Walter has already 314 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: described him as dangerous, you know, because he's planting ideas 315 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: in his young preteen and teenage brain. And then later 316 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: on he says, when someone asked him about Vietnam, he goes, 317 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: I don't know why I have to go over there, 318 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: And he realized afterwards that wasn't his original thought. That 319 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: was Mohammed Ali's thought that had been implanted. The sign 320 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: of a good leader is that you accept that logic 321 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: or that action or that courage on your own, and 322 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: you into it the external influence. And so you know, 323 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: by the time he wins in conshasa uh in the 324 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: rumble in the jungle. I mean, you know, we we 325 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: tend to think of history as a political thing. Um. 326 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: We forget how celebrity driven we are anyway at any time. Um. 327 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's nobody more important in the world at 328 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: that point than Muhammad. He's a hero to a lot 329 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: of people, to black Americans, so to sub Saharan and 330 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: Saharan Africa, to the rest of the Muslim world in 331 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: the Middle East and Southeast Asia, and and and the 332 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: people um around the world who felt like they hadn't 333 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: gotten a fair shake. And here was this guy who 334 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: came from that side of the tracks, who was defiant, 335 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: and he himself in the very beginning of the film, 336 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: he just states it right out quote. You know, I'm 337 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: one who got into your face in your white airplanes, 338 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: on your white TV, on your satellite. But I stayed 339 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: true to my free to my people. I retained the freedom. 340 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: But I represented where I came from. And that's a 341 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: really important thing for him, and it was really important 342 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: message for other people to hear. All the while we 343 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: were hearing something else. We're hearing, Oh he's too he's 344 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: too vain, or oh he's to this, or he's too contentious, 345 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: or he's being do political, shut up and dribble. You 346 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: know that that kind of sentimentality about sports figures that 347 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: that speak out or ridiculousness, not sentimentality. And and so 348 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: he's complicated, but his message for most of the people 349 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: in the world was pretty direct. Look at me, I'm beautiful. 350 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: I'm as pretty as a girl. And he's this handsome, 351 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: chiseled specimen and he is. But he's also empowering people. 352 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: If he can say that, I can say that too. 353 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: And think of how how powerful a tool that is 354 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: in a world that pretends to be, you know, interested 355 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: in democracy and equality and has the hardest time delivering 356 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: on it, whether it's socially or economically with housing or 357 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: jobs or salary or anything like that. To have somebody 358 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: who was not just doing it for himself, that Johnson 359 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: was just doing it for himself. He was going to 360 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: do whatever he wanted to do. He's gonna sleep with 361 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: whoever he was going to sleep. He was going to 362 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: marry whomever he wanted to, white or black, and did. 363 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: But but Muhammad Ali had a larger purpose. And there's 364 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: a wonderful shot in Um the first episode and when 365 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: he's training in the Fifth Street gym when the Beatles 366 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: invasion happens and there's John, Paul George and Ringo and 367 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: there's a fake shot and he's punching Lennon and Lennon 368 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: is at the top of like a domino, and McCartney 369 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: and Harrison and Star and in sequence, and you realize, man, 370 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: there are five people who understood in the last half 371 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century what it was really about, best 372 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: best written by, I think by Paul McCartney, who said, 373 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: the love you take is equal to the love you make. 374 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: And how interesting that in a brutal sport like boxing, 375 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: the guy who could be the avatar, the embodiment of 376 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: that message of love would be Muhammad Ali, a boxer 377 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: in the in the roughest sport there is well and 378 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: and the economics of it, as you allude to, become incredible. 379 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: I believe you point out in the film that he 380 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: earns fifty million dollars, which is equal to every heavyweight 381 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: champion that came before him, the total in total, in total. Yeah, 382 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: it's it's it's unbelievable how he changed the dynamics. I mean, 383 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: we we look to baseball into football for these sort 384 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: of astronomical salaries, and now, of course they do draft 385 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: uh you know, dwarf even Muhammad Ali's. But what we 386 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: have to understand is that he was the first. He 387 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: was the pioneer. And it's so interesting that when he 388 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: comes back from from the Rome Olympics, you know, he's 389 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: got these white sponsors, these eleven white businessmen in Louisville 390 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: who protect him from the mob, right, who give him 391 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: a contract. They went to Hollywood to study the contract 392 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: for Shirley Temple, and they fail as expensive. They put 393 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: him on a salary, they give him a huge portion 394 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: of his gate, and they're just there to protect him, 395 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: and they do for a while and it works. Wonders. 396 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: But it's such an incredible annually to be thinking about 397 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: a Hammad Ali and and seeing these um, these white businessmen. 398 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: But they also got him. They understood early on that 399 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: this was a local boy who made good and that 400 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: he was a good man at heart, And even when 401 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: reporters are pushing them about isn't the Nation of Islam 402 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: the hate group? They said, well, if it is a 403 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: hate group, then he's not really in it because he 404 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: doesn't have a bone of hatred in his body. And 405 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: they see he's he's ultimately a good investment. In many ways, 406 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: he is a good investment. He's a classic American investment. 407 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: There's been nobody better in the history of boxing, period, 408 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: full stop. And you know, Time and Newsweek and Sports 409 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: Illustrated all voted him the athlete of the twentieth century. 410 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: And I don't think I'd get much argument, even at 411 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: on a bar stool anywhere, by suggesting that he might 412 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: be just the greatest athlete of all times. And given 413 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: what he went through, this kind of epic story, there's 414 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: no battle in and Lord of the Rings or Harry 415 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: Potter that comes close to the Third Frasier fight. I 416 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: invite you to go back and look at that and say, 417 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: you know, no number of millions of Orcs or or 418 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, whatever they are in Harry Potter can can 419 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: really hold a candle to these two men, As Jerry 420 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: Eisenberg says, sort of fighting on on a on an 421 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: ice flow by themselves and the closest thing to death. Yeah, 422 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: now I was rewatching that and just again it's so 423 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: It's one of the things that's most compelling about the 424 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: film is you do go deep into these fights. You know, 425 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: they're the they ultimately turn into these sort of set 426 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: pieces throughout where you really just get this sense both 427 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: of the importance and obviously, as you alluded to the 428 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: brutality of the sport from a cultural relevance perspective. I 429 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,239 Speaker 1: want to go back to something you said earlier. You know, 430 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: he sort of puts boxing, you know, back, and and 431 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: then we see in the post Ali time frame boxing 432 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: sort of wayne again, and I wonder, you know again 433 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: echoes to now you think about the UFC and Connor 434 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: McGregor and all of these, you know, sort of larger 435 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: than life. Where does boxing sort of ebb and flow 436 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: historically or what did you learn about it as you 437 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: went through this project. I know that boxing had a 438 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: much greater role as I was saying, at the end 439 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth and the earlier twentieth century, and this 440 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: great dramatic upheaval when Jack Johnson got it, and then 441 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: it kind of you know, Joe Louis meant a great 442 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: deal to the black community, but that's a relatively small 443 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: percentage of the population, and and a small population of 444 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: within that population likes boxing. But his source of pride 445 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: Jaggie Robinson, of course. But what Muhammad Ali did is 446 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: bring who the heavyweight champion was back to the four 447 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: and inevitably, as he leaves the game, as he's no 448 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: longer a viable possible thing, it ebbs again. And no 449 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: amount of Connor Gregor or these you know, manipulations of 450 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: the sport are going to bring it back. You you 451 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: need somebody of the caliber of a Mohammad Ali, and 452 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: I just don't see that coming. He is so suey generous. 453 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like saying, you know, you know what 454 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: baseball really needs is Babe Ruth, good luck on that. 455 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: You know that's not going to happen. What we really 456 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: need is to have another um, you know, Wilt Chamberlain 457 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: or or Bill Russell, you know, well a Kareem Abdul Jabbar, 458 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: who we interview in this film. Good luck on that. Um. 459 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: You know, we do have a really great crop of 460 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: basketball players right now, and many of them have been 461 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: in a way the previous generation, the Michael Jordan's generation, 462 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: weren't outspoken. He they are outspoken, but they're not risking 463 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: their Nike contact contracts, They're not risking their basketball contracts. 464 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: They're not in danger of being running a foul of 465 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: the United States government government, no matter how much Senate 466 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: candidates might say, shut up and dribble. So you begin 467 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,959 Speaker 1: to appreciate even more a stature of a man like Mohammad, 468 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: and that that courage that keeps in going. And I 469 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: I think a key to that is his faith, whatever, 470 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: whatever his investment with the Nation of Islam, for him, 471 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: it's sincere and he grows that just the way Malcolm 472 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: X was trying to grow with it before he was assassinated. 473 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: And when Elijah Mohammed, the head of the Nation of Islam, 474 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 1: dies and his son Wallace takes over and steers it 475 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: into a much more ecumenical, a much more generous, a 476 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: much more mainstream, closer to what Islam is you b c. 477 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: You see Ali flowing with that naturally, and the last 478 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: years of his life is just nothing really to do 479 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: uh with the Nation of Islam in terms of the 480 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: way it was when he joined it, and more to 481 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: do with just one of the world's great religions trying 482 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 1: to show people a path. And his daughter Hanna you know, 483 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: speaks to this and says that her dad had said 484 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: that that all the great religions were like the water 485 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: in rivers. They all contain the same thing, and they're 486 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: just they just from different different names and and and 487 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: different sources, and the object is the same. And we 488 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: shouldn't kid ourselves. If you and I were born in 489 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: ridd Saudi Arabia, we'd be Sunni Muslims, period and stop. 490 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: So as we wrap up, I have to ask you 491 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 1: about that moment in nine in Atlanta. I'm an Atlanta guy, 492 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: so I would I was there in the city when 493 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: that happened. I don't think anybody could have scripted it. 494 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: They could have predicted what that would ultimately mean. It 495 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: almost didn't happen. It almost didn't. It was It was 496 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: Dick Ebersol's idea, the head of NBC Sports. What a 497 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,719 Speaker 1: great idea. Ran into opposition. He overcame that opposition, swore 498 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: everybody to secrecy. Muhammad Ali was against it. His friend, 499 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: the photographer Howard Bingham, said, look, you know, people will 500 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: love you. He didn't want to show off his infirmity. 501 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: He was kind of embarrassed by it. So it was 502 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: presumed the Janet Evans would like the torch, and Um 503 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: he takes it from her. At the end he comes out, 504 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: he's shaking from an uncontrollable palsy. They even had reserve. 505 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: She was going to keep hers it so that if 506 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: he dropped his, she could light the torch that would 507 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: go up to the large flame at the top of 508 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: the stadium in Atlanta. I remember sitting on my couch 509 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: here in my house, just just on the other side 510 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: of this yard, um and weeping, just weeping for all 511 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: that I've been through with him. I remember the Rome Olympics, 512 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: my dad telling me about this guy. I remember the 513 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: list in fight. I remember all the things in between. 514 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: I grew up on a college campus, so we were 515 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: opposed to the Vietnam War, and and so his stand 516 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: was principled. So when people were hating him even more, 517 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: I was loving him even more. And just to see 518 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: him there in the bravery and once again, the courage 519 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: it took to do that and share that with the 520 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: rest of the world was transcendent, and I think it 521 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: dissolved a lot of negativity for a lot of people 522 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: and allowed him to you know, he's around for a 523 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: long time until another another twenty one years. But um, 524 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: all of that is devoted to serving others. As he said, um, 525 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,479 Speaker 1: service to others is the rent you pay for your 526 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: room in Evan, and we know he definitely has a 527 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: big room. Yeah. Well, congratulations, what an honor to to 528 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: talk to you. Uh. It's an amazing film. I hope 529 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: everyone watches it. I learned a lot. Uh and it 530 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: is haunting in the best possible way. Ken Burns, thank you, 531 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thank you been my pleasure. I'm 532 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: so thrilled that you like it. I'll tell Sara and 533 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: Dave al right, be well, thank you. Thanks Ken. That 534 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: was amazing. I could talk to you all day. I 535 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: really really pray that was That was so fantastic. I 536 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: really enjoyed it. I wish it could go on and fortunately, 537 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: you know how this is. You know you're on a 538 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: treadmill right now. Yeah, but you know what, I love it. 539 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: There's this you know, you love making the film and 540 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: then you love the evangelical part. Maybe it's like you 541 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: know where you just I want to go out and 542 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: remind people, he isn't just the thing that you think 543 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: he is. And and I think the great thing we 544 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: love is when people said, I've never experts Oh, I 545 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: never saw that photograph, I never saw that the footage. 546 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: Oh I didn't know that fact. And when you hear 547 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: that from the biographers and the scholars, then you know 548 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: you're onto some right right. Well, uh, take good care 549 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: while you're evangelizing, and hope to see you before too long. 550 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: Thank you, I look forward to pass crossing again. Thanks 551 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: so much for the thoughtfulness of your questions. I really 552 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: appreciated me