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Speaker 1: What harassing people for their political beliefs, my Roy Cone.

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Speaker 1: This is Robert Evans. This is Behind the Bastards. It's

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Speaker 1: a podcast about terrible people. And I'm just gonna cut

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Speaker 1: right to the chase, as I already did. Today we're

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Speaker 1: talking about Roy motherfucking Cone. Oh my god. Joel Monique

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Speaker 1: is our guest. Joel, producer at I Heart Media. How

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Speaker 1: are you doing today? I'm good. I'm slightly unprofessional. I

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Speaker 1: just bit into some peanut butter. I'm so sorry. I'm

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Speaker 1: are you just doing? This is my favorite episode ever. Guys,

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Speaker 1: thank you Joel. What do you What do you know

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Speaker 1: about Roy Cone? Okay, so The Good Fight it was

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite TV shows of all time, had

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Speaker 1: like a very like strong leaning Roy Cone arc I

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Speaker 1: Want to Stay. Season two, there's in the past, No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's basically was an opportunity to educate people about

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Speaker 1: how Trump could go away some of the things. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: cool cool cool? Yes? Is that guy? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So and then they made this song which I think

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Speaker 1: you'll really appreciate. It's called Roy Cone Loves to Party.

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Speaker 1: There's an animated segment that goes along with it. It's

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Speaker 1: peak excellence. So I know, like a two minute real

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Speaker 1: quick history Roy Cohne. I know he's an awful human

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Speaker 1: a monster. Yeah, terrible, terrible guy. So I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: find out how terrible today. What's funny about Roy Cone

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Speaker 1: is that if you kind of measure him objectively against

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Speaker 1: the standards of you know, a lot of the people

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Speaker 1: we talked about on this show, he doesn't seem that bad,

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Speaker 1: like he's he's a bad person, but he's not like

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Speaker 1: Stalin or Hitler, but he's he was such an unpleasant

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Speaker 1: well he may have. He was such an unpleasant human

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Speaker 1: being that his name has become kind of like a

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Speaker 1: bye word for a monster, like he's he's up there

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Speaker 1: just because as of what a piece of ship he

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Speaker 1: was to everyone around him. And it's kind of amazing

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Speaker 1: if you watch documentaries. Here's a great documentary um called

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Speaker 1: Where's My Roy Cone? That interviews people who knew him,

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Speaker 1: and like at least two of Like, there are multiple

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Speaker 1: people in that documentary who are friends of his who

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Speaker 1: describe him as evil, like just because it's like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we I hung out with Roy but he was evil

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Speaker 1: like he was He's absolutely was the the embodiment of

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Speaker 1: human evil. Wow, how could you? I wonder what you're

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Speaker 1: bringing to that friendship that they were like, well talk

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Speaker 1: about he was he was kind of a great friend. Um,

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Speaker 1: oh that you have like a super bitch of a friend.

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Speaker 1: But she's good to you and she's good monster. Yes

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Speaker 1: you get it. Yeah, it's the kind of friend were like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know they are a monster, but also if I

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Speaker 1: ever need them, they will burn the world down for me,

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Speaker 1: my personal monster. Yeah. That's that's who Roy Cone was. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it's one of the we'll talk about his relationship

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Speaker 1: with Trump later. It's what Trump learned a lot from

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Speaker 1: Roy Kone. The thing he never learned from Roy Cone

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Speaker 1: was how to be loyal, because that is something Cone

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Speaker 1: was good at to his actual friends. He was very

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Speaker 1: loyal and they weren't to him, because it just turns

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Speaker 1: out when you're friends with people who can be friends

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Speaker 1: with a person who is pure, unadulterated human evil, they're

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Speaker 1: not good at being loyal to you, even if you

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Speaker 1: are to them. It's fun. It's a fun story. Uh.

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Speaker 1: That documentary, Where's My Roy Cone? I do recommend watching.

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Speaker 1: It gets its name from something Donald Trump said when

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Speaker 1: an attorney general Jeff Sessions recused himself during the Mueller probe.

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Speaker 1: President Donald Trump reportedly cried out, where's my Roy Cone

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Speaker 1: in a moment of panic and fear. Um, Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk all about that today. Roy Cone was

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Speaker 1: a lawyer. It's accurate to say that, But just saying

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Speaker 1: like that's describing Roy Cone as a lawyer is such

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Speaker 1: an incomplete explanation of who he was as to be

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Speaker 1: totally inaccurate. Roy Khne was a blackmail artist, a political

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Speaker 1: fixer of the highest order, maybe the best there ever

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Speaker 1: was a man famous for being infamous, and a man

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Speaker 1: who weaponized sociopathy more effectively than any other political actor

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Speaker 1: in US history. He's a he's a hoot of a dude.

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Speaker 1: He created the shortcuts to help us get where we

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Speaker 1: got today. Yeah. Yeah, he He's the man who built

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Speaker 1: both Roger Stone and Donald Trump. Like he's he's a

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Speaker 1: remarkable piece of ship. Um, you'd love to see it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah so. Roy Marcus Cohne was born on February n

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Speaker 1: seven in the Bronx, New York City. He was the

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Speaker 1: only child of a wealthy Jewish couple, Dora and Albert.

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Speaker 1: His father, Albert, was a Judge and a major figure

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Speaker 1: in the local Democratic Party. As a result, Roy grew

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Speaker 1: up with politicians of all stripes dropping by his home

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Speaker 1: for dinners and cocktail parties. So he's he's he's born

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Speaker 1: into the political upper crust, you know, from from the

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Speaker 1: snobby rich kid evolving like he learned. He was one

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Speaker 1: of those kids who spoke like an adult way too early,

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Speaker 1: like hows yes, yes, absolutely, his parents let him drink

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Speaker 1: at the cocktail parties. He thought he was an adult

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Speaker 1: when he was just an obnoxious trash child. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: was definitely drinking at the adult table from a young age,

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Speaker 1: a table for him. No, no, no. And obviously, like

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Speaker 1: he he came from money. Uh. And not just like

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Speaker 1: Judge money, but his family has like wealth on all

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Speaker 1: sides of it. His great uncle was the founder of

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Speaker 1: the Lionel Corporation, which makes they make toy trains uh

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Speaker 1: and work for a while the largest toy manufacturer on

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Speaker 1: the planet. Roy's maternal uncle, Bernard Marcus, was the President

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Speaker 1: of the Bank of the United States. Um. So again

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Speaker 1: a ton of money in this family. Uh. And obviously

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Speaker 1: the fact that Bernard was the president of the Bank

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Speaker 1: of the United States added to the families gravitas and

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Speaker 1: importance until October twenty nine of nineteen twenty nine, when

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Speaker 1: the stock Marcus crashed in the Great Depression got going

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Speaker 1: because the Bank of the United States was one of

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Speaker 1: the main things that caused like its collapsed caused the

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Speaker 1: Great Depression. Now, Roy was too young to remember much

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Speaker 1: of what happened at the time, the stress and the panic.

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Speaker 1: It would have been passed onto him though by the

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Speaker 1: adults around him, especially because his uncle's bank was blamed

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Speaker 1: for star sparking the stock market crash. This wasn't entirely

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Speaker 1: fair because a lot of people in a lot of

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Speaker 1: banks were to blame for the Great Depression, but Bernard

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Speaker 1: Marcus was the head of the bank that was most implicated,

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Speaker 1: and he was also a Jew, so um, he got blamed.

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Speaker 1: He became like the scapegoat of the financial crashgoat, we

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Speaker 1: can't we can't held responsible, but we can't blame Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So Bernard Marcus is Jewish. The Bank of the US

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Speaker 1: is heavily frequented by Jewish immigrants, and everybody's angry at

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Speaker 1: Jewish people when the economy collapses because sis um uh so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Bernard Marcus actually becomes the only banker to go to

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Speaker 1: prison for the financial crisis, for the Great Depression, Like

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Speaker 1: they pick one and it's the Jewish guy. Lord Jesus,

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Speaker 1: that's awful. Which is not to say that he didn't

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Speaker 1: do anything, because he definitely did, but it was he

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Speaker 1: did not He should certainly shouldn't have been the only

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Speaker 1: banker to go to prison. He didn't row that boat alone.

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Speaker 1: He did single handedly tank our economy. Come on now,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah, um and yeah, so he This is like

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Speaker 1: a huge fact of shame for the Cone family. And

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Speaker 1: to this day Cones survived. Roy Cone surviving relatives consider

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Speaker 1: the case to have been a matter of scapegoating um

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Speaker 1: because again, he was the only banker to go to

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Speaker 1: jail um. And this really left an impact on Roy

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Speaker 1: because he visited his uncle in prison when he was

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Speaker 1: a small child. Some of Roy's earliest memories were seeing

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Speaker 1: his uncle Bernard and sing sing. One of his cousins

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Speaker 1: later wrote quote that left Cone determined to beat the establishment.

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Speaker 1: You gotta think about it this way. He grows up

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Speaker 1: thinking like, yeah, we're Jewish, but like we're part of

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Speaker 1: the ruling class, the wealthy class, and we're all It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you're Jewish or Christian or whatever, as

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Speaker 1: long as you're in that upper crust. And then when

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Speaker 1: a crisis hits, it turns out that we're not all

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Speaker 1: part of the same thing because all of the other

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Speaker 1: rich people blame the jew right, Like that's the way

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Speaker 1: it goes. Yeah, I didn't expect to have any sort

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Speaker 1: of empathy in this episode at all, but as somebody

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Speaker 1: who understands the realization of racism, like, oh, me a

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Speaker 1: fragment of empathy for baby roy Colon before he becomes

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Speaker 1: the evil we know him to be today. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: has an impact on the evil because he realizes, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: money won't protect me even like from like the fact

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Speaker 1: that I'm different actually does matter. We're not all the

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Speaker 1: same even though we're rich, and so I just like

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Speaker 1: I am now, I like I'm not a part of

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Speaker 1: the establishment, so I must be at war with it.

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Speaker 1: That's that's the idea that Roy Cone, Baby Roy Coe

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Speaker 1: that lord, yeah, it's super fun. So a family friend

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Speaker 1: who was around at the time claimed quote the family

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Speaker 1: had been absolutely shamed when Bernard Marcus went to prison.

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Speaker 1: Roy kept a scrap book as a little boy of

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Speaker 1: all the pictures of his uncle Bernie Marcus. He would

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Speaker 1: show them to his babysitters. Once his mother saw him

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Speaker 1: doing this, and she yelled and took the scrap book away.

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Speaker 1: Because he loved his uncle. He was proud of his uncle.

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Speaker 1: He had like a scrap book of his uncle who

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Speaker 1: was like a big figure in his life, and his

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Speaker 1: mom wanted to like pretend he didn't exist. After Rich,

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Speaker 1: there was a child psychologes here to like break down,

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Speaker 1: a child purposely uncovering what the family has tried to

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Speaker 1: hide and shame to be like, no, this guy is

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Speaker 1: good there just like no hide that and what does

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Speaker 1: that do to your psych psyche that says if you

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Speaker 1: make a mistake, also, we will just remove you from

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Speaker 1: our Yea. The scrap book thing is like, I like

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Speaker 1: my I don't have a scrap book and one of

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Speaker 1: my relatives. It's just so weird. Yeah, it's it's I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's sweet. He clearly cared about his

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Speaker 1: uncle um, and his mom is telling him no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: he made a mistake, so we don't celebrate his existence anymore. Which, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right, Joel. That has to that transmits a message

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Speaker 1: to a growing little boy. Yeah, and it's not a

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Speaker 1: good one. Don't suck up. Okay, you can be disappears

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Speaker 1: his mother, Elizabeth, that's my question, I mean emotionally yes,

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Speaker 1: so fair enough. Despite the family shame, Roy's father remained

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Speaker 1: a judge and a connected person in Democratic Party politics.

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Speaker 1: When Roy was ten, his father introduced him to his

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Speaker 1: first president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. So again, aged ten is

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Speaker 1: when this kid starts hobnobbing with the president, not just

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Speaker 1: the president of President of the United States, but like

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Speaker 1: the President of the United States, because no president's ever

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Speaker 1: had more power than fucking fdr Um. So yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: who Roy's hanging out with at age ten. Uh. He

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Speaker 1: started giving speeches at political rallies the year before when

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Speaker 1: he was nine, and he was so comfortable talking shop

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Speaker 1: that as soon as he met FDR he told the

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Speaker 1: President he agreed with his plan to pack the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: So that's like this ten year old boy and the

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Speaker 1: first thing he's like is like, yeah, you got to

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Speaker 1: increase the number of people in the Supreme Court so

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Speaker 1: that you can rule unchallenged. You. Yeah, that's that's where

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Speaker 1: his head is. So the Cone, the Cone family, as

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Speaker 1: you might have guessed, was not what we would call healthy.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Roy's parents marriage is generally described as a

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Speaker 1: loveless I found, yeah, well, what did you did you expect?

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of love in that relationship. I

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Speaker 1: always shocked when I hear about loveless marriages. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: how did you survive? But also I understand, um, the era,

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Speaker 1: you know, the marriages of convenience and or this is

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Speaker 1: a financial person, my Brackett, who won't steal from me,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, this is a political marriage. Yeah, so uh yeah.

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Speaker 1: I found a fun article in the Rap by David Marcus,

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Speaker 1: who is the son of Roy's first cousin, and by

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Speaker 1: the way, his dad, David's dad refused to talk to

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Speaker 1: Roy Cone for decades. Now, David grew up to be

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Speaker 1: a journalist and obviously like, as a journalist with Roy

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Speaker 1: Cone as an uncle, you're going to interview him. And

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Speaker 1: he did interview Roy several times. In two thousand nineteen,

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Speaker 1: he wrote an article titled five things you may not

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Speaker 1: know about my vile, malicious cousin Roy Cone just quite alistical?

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about the three sixty of like Roy

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Speaker 1: trying to show photos of his like imprisoned uncle to

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Speaker 1: then his nephew sharing with the world via a paper

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Speaker 1: the horribleness of his uncle. There's something very balanced about

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Speaker 1: an unhip. It's a fun family. Uh so, yeah, he wrote,

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Speaker 1: he writes this about Roy Cone's mother. Quote. My relatives

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Speaker 1: couldn't stand Roy's overbearing mother, Dora Marcus Cone. She was

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Speaker 1: the original helicopter parent, long before anybody knew that term,

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Speaker 1: fussing over her own lee's son's grades, appearance, and relationships.

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Speaker 1: When Roy went to sleepaway camp, Dora rented a room

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Speaker 1: down the road. He lived with his mother until she

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Speaker 1: died when he was forty. So some Norman Bates vibes

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Speaker 1: coming off this boy. Oh no, man, listen, kids, we're

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Speaker 1: not talking about you. We understand financial straits and everything.

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Speaker 1: But if you could love for it to not live

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Speaker 1: with you, if you are a wealthy lawyer, especially in

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Speaker 1: an era where that people used to clown on people

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Speaker 1: so hard for still living with their parents, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what we call an unhealthy relationship. Yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: not like living with his mom because like he's got

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Speaker 1: to take care of her, or because like he's living

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Speaker 1: with his mom because he can't imagine what to do

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Speaker 1: without her. For until he's forty. Um, yeah, you get

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Speaker 1: the feeling. It wasn't there was some Yeah, there was.

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Speaker 1: There was absolutely some weird ship going on there. So

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Speaker 1: by the nineteen forties, the family fortunes had recovered, and

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Speaker 1: the Cones were again the center of a deeply influential

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Speaker 1: network of New York socialites and politicos. As soon as

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Speaker 1: Roy was a teenager, his parents pushed him to attend

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Speaker 1: their parties. According to one of those guests, Roy took

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Speaker 1: naturally to politics, socializing, and schmoozing like an old veteran.

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Speaker 1: One attendee later recalled it was extraordinary to see tin

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Speaker 1: grown up couples and then sitting next to a fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old. Roy was always on the scene. He fit

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Speaker 1: right in. One of his friends later told an interviewer

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Speaker 1: when he was sixteen, he was forty. Yeah, those kids

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Speaker 1: are not okay. This is they're not an excuse we

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Speaker 1: hear about like when we see very very young girls

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Speaker 1: with older and they're like, oh, well they seem so

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Speaker 1: mature that person needs help. Yeah, it's not okay. Or

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Speaker 1: genius does not make you mature, And where does it

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Speaker 1: give you the years of experience that you need to

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Speaker 1: navigate situations with actual adults. Well, and it's a bit

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Speaker 1: different in Roy's case because like he's not in a

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Speaker 1: relationship with these people, but they're the ones he's socializing with,

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Speaker 1: and they lead him to I don't think Roy ever

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Speaker 1: had a childhood, and I'm not sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the sad like it was stolen from him because

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Speaker 1: he never had the opportunity be treated like a child,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then then you don't know the joys

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Speaker 1: of childhood, which makes you a very weird, bitter old adult. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which he absolutely is a weird, bitter old adult. So

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Speaker 1: as a rich kid, Roy's peers were from similarly august backgrounds.

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Speaker 1: His buddy, Generoso Pope Junior grew up to be the

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Speaker 1: owner of the National Inquirer. You wonder why that magazine

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Speaker 1: is so close to Donald Trump. His friend became the publisher.

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Speaker 1: What that was really quick to go over? Yeah, just

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Speaker 1: like let us think in Yeah, Roy's best buddy grew

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Speaker 1: up to we owned the National inquire His other best

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Speaker 1: friend became the publisher, and then Roy became Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: good friend. And Donald Trump has had a lifelong positive

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Speaker 1: relationship with the National Inquirer. Yes, I just want yeah,

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Speaker 1: just so much. And one little son to Roy Khone's friend,

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Speaker 1: Richard Berlin, became the chairman of Condie Nast and his

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Speaker 1: friend Bill Fugazi grew up to be the owner of

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Speaker 1: a massive traveling limousine company. So these are Roy Khne's

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Speaker 1: childhood buddies, like the act, the only kids he spends

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Speaker 1: his time around, grow up to be those people. And

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Speaker 1: they're inheriting a lot of what they get, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: they're not founding that ship, you know, and if they are,

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Speaker 1: they're inheriting a bunch of money to found that ship.

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Speaker 1: So from an early age, Cone showed a strong inclination

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Speaker 1: towards what would become his life's work. He ran what

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Speaker 1: his biographer calls the Roy Cone Barter and Swap Exchange

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Speaker 1: while he was in junior high school. This was an

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Speaker 1: influence and information pedaling racket. Roy wrote a gossip column

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Speaker 1: for his local newspaper, and he would trade stories and

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Speaker 1: manipulate the stories he published in exchange for favors from

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Speaker 1: popular kids. Yeah, okay, so many things of just having

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Speaker 1: in my head for sure, there's a lot going on there.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea Roy Collen was actually Dan humph,

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Speaker 1: you from gossip actually makes so much sense. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then the idea of like a twelve or thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old like again having the foresight and knowledge to understand

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Speaker 1: how an operation like that could work. It seems just

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Speaker 1: like the most batship thing I've ever heard, Like I'll

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Speaker 1: lie for you. Yeah, spread that lie and you know

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Speaker 1: you kick me back. The favors do we know what

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Speaker 1: kind of favors he was getting in exchange? They were

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Speaker 1: like he got jobs and stuff as a kid over

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and you have to assume he got like

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Speaker 1: invites to parties and whatnot, Like it was you know,

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Speaker 1: it was it was not the kind of favors he

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Speaker 1: would be getting later. But he's experiment because later his

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Speaker 1: favors would be stuff like getting people in or out

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Speaker 1: of prison. Um. But he's he's he's starting to learn

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Speaker 1: how if you have control of a media organ you

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Speaker 1: can get things from people by either planting stories about

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Speaker 1: them or refusing to plant stories about them. Um. Like

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Speaker 1: that's what he's trading gossip for favors. Um. And he's

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Speaker 1: learning how to do that again as a teenager, and

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Speaker 1: he's learning to do that within the context of a

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Speaker 1: high school. But he's also spending all of his time

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Speaker 1: talking to adult politicians, and you can he's putting this

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Speaker 1: stuff together like he knows what he's going to be.

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Speaker 1: Roy Cone knew what he wanted to be from a

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Speaker 1: very young age, and it was always a shady political fixure.

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Speaker 1: He's You look at what Rudy Giuliani is doing these days,

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Speaker 1: and he's bad at it. Rudy Giuliani is terrible, terrible, terrible,

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Speaker 1: can even file a lawsuit correctly, sir, please put the door.

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Speaker 1: Roy Cone is good version of that, and not good

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Speaker 1: in amoral sense, but good in Roy was good at

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Speaker 1: this um. He knew how to do it. And you

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Speaker 1: can see the reason Donald Trump keeps having Giuliani do

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Speaker 1: all this ship is because he's desperately wants to have

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Speaker 1: a Roy Cone, but he doesn't because there was only one.

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Speaker 1: But I really feel like he's got to be somebody

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Speaker 1: more capable, you know, not not who's also capable of

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Speaker 1: the same kind of loyalty. That's the thing. Giuliani's loyal

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Speaker 1: to the president, at least so far, but incompetent. Roy

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Speaker 1: is loyal and competent, and that that's what Trump wants.

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Speaker 1: But sadly we'll talk about why Roy Conan around no

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Speaker 1: more so. Roy went to the kind of elementary and

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Speaker 1: high schools that rich kids get to attend, the ones

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Speaker 1: that cost as much as a small house for a

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Speaker 1: year of tuition. He went to Columbia Law School, and

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Speaker 1: he graduated at age twenty with both a bachelor's degree

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Speaker 1: and a law degree. So like, very very smart kid. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so age twenty, he's out of college. He's a he's a.

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Speaker 1: He's a he's an it admitted to the bar, lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and he is ready to make his mark on the world.

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Speaker 1: Using his father's connections, he gets a job at the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Attorney's Office for the Southern District, and he got the

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Speaker 1: gig the same day that he was formally admitted to

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Speaker 1: the bar. In case you're wondering what kind of impact

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Speaker 1: is judge Dad had on all that the day he

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Speaker 1: becomes a lawyer, he's working for the U. S. Attorney's Office,

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Speaker 1: Like it's very convenient. Yeah, it helps. Now. For reasons

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Speaker 1: that are not exactly clear to me, Roy became fascinated

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Speaker 1: with what was seen as the looming threat of Soviet

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Speaker 1: influence on the United States. His entry drew him in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one to the job of prosecuting Julius and

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Speaker 1: Ethel Rosenberg for espionage. Now do you know much about

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Speaker 1: the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg case. I feel pretty educated

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Speaker 1: on it, yes, but I definitely need to hear more. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's the Rosenbergs were committed communists, and Julius was an

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Speaker 1: electrical engineer with connections to all manner of science folks.

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Speaker 1: He spent years in the Army's Signal Signal Corps, and

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Speaker 1: he fed the USSR information about a bunch of different

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Speaker 1: U S weapons technologies, at one point even smuggling his

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Speaker 1: handler a complete proximity fuse. So Julius is absolutely a

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Speaker 1: spy for the Soviet Union um and and giving them

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. Uh. He was eventually fired from

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Speaker 1: the Army when it was revealed that he had been

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Speaker 1: a member of the Communist Party in the thirties, but

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Speaker 1: he remained good at meeting science folks who were involved

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Speaker 1: in the Defense Department, and one of the folks that

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Speaker 1: he met after getting fired from the Army was working

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Speaker 1: on the Manhattan Project. Now, there's a lot of debate

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Speaker 1: over exactly how helpful the nuclear secrets that he stole

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Speaker 1: were and I think the the consensus is that the

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Speaker 1: USSR would have developed a bomb and more or less

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Speaker 1: the same time frame without Julius Rosenberg. But he did

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Speaker 1: give them information on the A bomb, and the Pentagon was,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Soviet Union in the late forties comes

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Speaker 1: out with an A bomb of their own, and the

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Speaker 1: Pentagon is really surprised because they had thought it would

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Speaker 1: take the Soviets a lot longer to make an A bomb,

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Speaker 1: and they assumed that the only way they could have

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Speaker 1: possibly built it as if a spy had given them

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Speaker 1: all of the information. And again, the Soviets had really

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Speaker 1: good scientists, in part because they stole scientists from the

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Speaker 1: Nazis too, and partly because they just had good scientists

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Speaker 1: like they didn't need. It's probable that they would not

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Speaker 1: have needed what Julius provided them with two have built

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Speaker 1: the A bomb, but he had. He had provided them

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00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: with some secrets, and when he was eventually found out,

400
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,399
Speaker 1: the Defense establishment uses him as a scapegoat for the

401
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 1: entire fact that a nuclear arms race started. Right. They

402
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 1: need someone to blame for the fact that the Soviets

403
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: have a bomb, and they blame Julius Rosenberg. They also

404
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: blame his wife, Ethel Rosenberg. Now, Ethel had been an actress,

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Speaker 1: and the remains debate as to the exact extent of

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Speaker 1: her involvement. She was charged with being a full party

407
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Speaker 1: to her husband's espionage, so she was charged with being

408
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Speaker 1: just as much of a spy as her husband. UM. Now,

409
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: a lot of information has come out since the fall

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Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union. UM, and it suggests that while

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00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,360
Speaker 1: she was aware of and approved of her husband's activity,

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Speaker 1: she was probably not playing an active role in spreading

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Speaker 1: atomic secrets. And there was evidence at the time that

414
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: she was not playing an active role in spreading atomic secrets. Um.

415
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: They didn't have any evidence that she was. But Roy

416
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: Cohne wanted both Rosenberg's convicted and executed. He didn't just

417
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: want Julius executed, he wanted Ethel executed as well. UM.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm gonna quote from a right up in

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Speaker 1: the magazine forward quote the case that made him The

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00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: espionage trial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg was a prime

421
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Speaker 1: example of Khne's law skirting tactics and the demons that

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Speaker 1: propelled his career. Cone saw the case as an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to make his name as a ruthless prosecutor and recoup

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00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: the status his family had lost. He had a score

425
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: to settle, said one person. When Cone was vicious and

426
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 1: pushing for Ethel and Julius Rosenberg's execution illegally communicating with

427
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: Judge Irving Kaufman, who ironically called Cone from a phone

428
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: booth outside the Park Avenue Synagogue, he may have been

429
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: trying to lift the stigma a family shame. He was responding,

430
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: his relatives suggest, not just to anti communist animus, but

431
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: to its inevitable link to Jews like him. He was

432
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 1: the definition of a self hating Jew. Cone's cousin David Marcus,

433
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: says in the film, he wanted to show the world

434
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 1: that he wasn't Jewish. So Khn's family are Jewish people

435
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: scapegoated for the Great Depression. And then when Jewish people,

436
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: when he has a chance to scapegoat another Jewish couple

437
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: as responsible for the Russians getting the bomb, he does

438
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: that in part to kind of wipe the shame away

439
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 1: from his family. Improved. We're loyal Americans like this Jewish family,

440
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: like is our traders, but like the people prosecuting him

441
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: and the judge, we're loyal Jews. Like, that's kind of

442
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: the thing that went on in Cone's head, some real

443
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: house slave ship. Yeah, that's just me honest about it.

444
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: Like this idea that you could cleanse your family by

445
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 1: destroying another is uh, I mean it explains a lot

446
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 1: about him and his ideology. Yeah, it's pretty dark. Um. Now.

447
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: Roy's defining moment in the trial came during his cross

448
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: examination of David green Grass, Ethel Rosenberg's brother. The prosecution

449
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: had initially relied upon getting Ethel to testify against her

450
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: husband in exchange for clemency, but she refused to talk.

451
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: This piste off Roy, but it also left the state

452
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: in a bind because there was no hard evidence that

453
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: Ethel Rosenberg had done anything. So Cone went to David,

454
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: who had helped with the espionage, and promised him that

455
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: if he lied about his sister's role in the conspiracy,

456
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: David and his wife would get lesser sentences. Green Grass

457
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: later admitted to lying on the stand at Cone's direction,

458
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: but it didn't matter. Ethel was convicted. So Cone goes

459
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: to this guy says, like, I'll make sure you and

460
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,239
Speaker 1: your wife don't get exit. You get lesser sentence. Is

461
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: if you say that Ethel was a part of the espionage,

462
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: and David gets up in court and he lies about

463
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: Ethel Rosenberg's complicity in the espionage, and so she gets convicted,

464
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: um along with Julius, who you know, for whatever you

465
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: want to say about how fair or unfair the penalty was,

466
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: Julius was guilty of espionage. He did the crime, but

467
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 1: the crime. It's wild to me that, like it seems,

468
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: especially in this era, like well, no, not a lot

469
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: of women prisons, not a lot of females behind bars,

470
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: certainly not a lot being executed. It's kind of intense that,

471
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: like how much his own self hate was far like

472
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: if that is in truth what senmed a lot of

473
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: these decision making Like the idea of like no, we

474
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: got to fry them all is like just intense and horrifying. Yeah. Now, um,

475
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: here's the thing that's fun about America in this period

476
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: of time. Is no American at this point in time

477
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: when Julius and Ethel Rosenberger being tried, no one eric

478
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: and had ever been executed for treason or espionage outside

479
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: of war, outside of a war, So that hasn't happened.

480
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: So people are talking about like most people who are like, well, yeah,

481
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg are probably guilty, they need to

482
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: be punished. Don't want them A lot of people don't

483
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,239
Speaker 1: want them to be executed because we don't do that

484
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: as a country at this point, right that the idea,

485
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: that's not what we are. We don't kill people outside

486
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: of a war for engaging in this. And we're coming

487
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: hot off the Geneva Convention. Yeah, yeah, that's all pretty

488
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: with all these laws and stuffing how to conduct yourself. Wow, okay,

489
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: but Roy kone wants them dead. And as it turned out,

490
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: now normally the prosecutor is not supposed to have any

491
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: say in in the punishment. That's, you know, the judges

492
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: in this sort of a case, that's the judges per view.

493
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: But Cone would wind up having a strong say in

494
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 1: her punishment. He later claimed number one that he had

495
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: pulled strings to make sure that Kaufman was the judge

496
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: who got the case. There's no evidence that this was true,

497
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: except for the fact that Kaufman called roy Cone repeatedly

498
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: when he had questions about the case, which kind of

499
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: suggests that Kaufman was indebted to Roy kone and again

500
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: at this point, so the judge was calling Roy and

501
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: being like you, I'll have some questions about this case. Yeah,

502
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: most most particularly the judges calling Roy Cone and saying, hey,

503
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: should I execute? Should I have these people executed? Is

504
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: that fair? Like that that's the kind of ship that

505
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: like he's he's he's coming up to them with um, yeah, so,

506
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: which is pretty dark um. And and of course Roy

507
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: Cone is like, yeah, absolutely you should be you should

508
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: kill these people. Yeah. So yeah again like yeah, So

509
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: the judge calls Roy on the phone and it's like,

510
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like weird about executing these people.

511
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: We've never done that before in this kind of context.

512
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: What do you think I should do? And like should I?

513
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: Should I execute Ethel as well? And Roy is like, yes,

514
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: you should execute them both, And he tells the judge

515
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 1: the way I see it, she being Ethel is worse

516
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: than Julius, so he's he's a whole hog, like, yes,

517
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: you need to have these people hung um or actually

518
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: like electrocute. They were electrocuted. But yeah, I wonder if

519
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: the silence they'll listen. I'm not a psychologist listeners, but

520
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna play one for a second here. I wonder

521
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: if like part of the reason he was like, she's

522
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 1: worse is because she was willing to not say anything.

523
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: And this idea of like possibly this couple representing his parents,

524
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: and the idea of their like hiding and then being

525
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: part of the downfall of America during the Great Depression.

526
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: I wonder if there are are links in his brain

527
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: to those things. Yeah, you think you get the feeling? Yeah?

528
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: Probably probably, Yeah, what a funked up guy? Yeah? Do

529
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: you know what time it is? Oh? Is it time

530
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: for products and service? Perhaps? You know who won't order

531
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: the executions of a probably innocent woman and her husband

532
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: during peacetime for espionage? I really hope it's our our

533
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: sponsors and the product that is. That's the only standard

534
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: we have for our our our our products is the

535
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg case. We ask all of them

536
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: about it. All of them say, that happened decades before

537
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: you were born. Why are you asking us about this?

538
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: None of these companies existed at that point in time.

539
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: And we demand a response. And that's why we have

540
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: so very few advertisers. They think it's weird. A lot

541
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: of people think it's weird. Here's as we're back. Uh

542
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: so Judge Kaufman, having consulted with Roy Kane, sentences both

543
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: Rosenberg's to die, telling them in court, I consider your

544
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: crime worse than murder. I believe your conduct and putting

545
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: into the hands of the Russians the A bomb years

546
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: before our best scientists predicted Russia would effect the bomb

547
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: has already caused, in my opinion, the communist digression in Korea,

548
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: with the resultant casualties exceeding fifty thousand, and who knows

549
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: but millions more of innocent people may pay the price

550
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: for your treason. Indeed, by your betrayal, you wouldndoubtedly have

551
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: altered the course of history to the disadvantage of our country.

552
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: No one can say that we do not live in

553
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,479
Speaker 1: a constant state of tension. We have evidence of your

554
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: treachery all around us every day. For the civilian defense

555
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: activities throughout the nation are aimed at preparing us for

556
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: an Adam bomb attack. So he's not wrong that Russia

557
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: getting the bomb made everybody scared, but also not really

558
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: right in saying that the fact that Russia number one,

559
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: that the Rosenbergs were responsible for Russia getting the bomb earlier,

560
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: but also, like you know, the fact that the United

561
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: States was had been so willing to use the bomb

562
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: on Russia before they get a bomb of their own,

563
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: might be responsible for some of the paranoia and fear,

564
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: like the fact that you know, Truman dropped the bomb

565
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: on Japan largely to scare Russia, and the fact that

566
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: McArthur attempted to use the bomb on Korea and had

567
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: to be forced. You know, there's there's a lot going

568
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: on there anyway. Internationally, the cause of the Rosenbergs became

569
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: one of the first major anti American movements of the

570
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: post war era. And remember fucking post World War two,

571
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: basically everybody likes the United States, like very popular country

572
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: worldwide because you know, the Nazis and we're not the Nazis,

573
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: and a lot of refugees had come here, and like,

574
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: not to say that the horrible things the US had done,

575
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: you know, genocides of the Native Americans and slavery and

576
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: stuff hadn't happened, but like internationally pretty popular country in

577
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: nineteen forty six, Yeah, booming, Yeah, Yeah, people are pretty

578
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: happy with us. The fact that we condemned the Rosenbergs

579
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: to execution pisces off a lot of people and again

580
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: starts playing in one of the first international anti American movements.

581
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: A lot of people thought they were innocent, and those

582
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: who didn't feel they were innocent at least felt that

583
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: the punishment didn't fit the crime. Marxist John Paul Start

584
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: described the whole conviction as illegal lynching, which smear is

585
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: with blood a whole nation. By killing the Rosenbergs, you

586
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: have quite simply tried to halt the progress of science

587
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: by human sacrifice, magic, witch hunts, autos de fay sacrifices.

588
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: We are here getting to the point your country is

589
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: sick with fear. You are afraid of the shadow of

590
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: your own bomb, which is very much what's happening. We

591
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: invite we have been to doomsday device and assume will

592
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: be the only ones to ever have it, and then

593
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: when we have to fear it, we're like, oh god,

594
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: this is what we were doing to the rest of

595
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: the world, but we don't. Everybody else is evil. We've

596
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: never done anything. Yeah, yeah, And and it continues today,

597
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: so it's fun, stupid, it's yeah. Yeah. So the United

598
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: States and President Eisenhower did not listen to international outrage

599
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: the rosen and there's huge protests in the United States too.

600
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: By the way, thousands and thousands of people taking to

601
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: the streets. Um nobody in the government listened. The Rosenbergs

602
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: were executed on June nine. Julius's execution went smoothly enough,

603
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: but the first several shocks failed to kill Ethel. The

604
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: executioner was forced to repeat the process so many times

605
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: he nearly lit her on fire. Smoke was pouring out

606
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: from her head. It was and remains a profoundly gross story,

607
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: and a lot of people at the time knew it

608
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: was disgusting. Many of Roy Kohn's family were horrified about

609
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: his actions. He later told a reporter with Pride, I

610
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: very early in my life broke with tradition and left

611
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: my Jewish, upper class oriented life in New York and

612
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: became a contradiction of everything I was supposed to stand for. Yeah,

613
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: so he knows what he's doing. Yeah, it's really great

614
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: to shoot on your entire family and everything that they

615
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: stood for. Cool. Yeah. So, there were, of course, people

616
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: who deeply appreciated CON's tactics and motivations. One of them

617
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: was j Edgar Hoover, the director of the FBI. The

618
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: two struck up a fast friendship and would actually exchange

619
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: Christmas gifts for more than twenty years, if you're looking

620
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: at the kind of guy who Roy genuinely appreciates and

621
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: vice versa. One reporter described the two as ideological soul mates.

622
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: Cone became the Yeah, you don't want to be you

623
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: don't want to be JEdgar Hoover's soul bait. No, you

624
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: do not h real bad person. So Cone became the

625
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: FBI's unofficial liaison to the press. And I'm gonna quote

626
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: here from The l A Times. Anything Hoover wanted to

627
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: plant about someone friend or foe, he directed to Cone.

628
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: So reliable was this gossip network that Walter Winchell's secretary,

629
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: and Walter Winchell is a very influential gossip columnist at

630
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: the time, dutifully awaited Cone's reputation destroying phone calls when

631
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: they wanted to stick it to somebody. Former Rep. Neil

632
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: Gallagher told Von Hoffman, Who's Roy's biographer, that was Roy's job,

633
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: oh Man. To be wealthy and be able to destroy

634
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: somebody with phone call is power. I don't think I

635
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: will ever possess that, is Roy Cone. Absolutely, that is

636
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: just it's it's too much power to way to win,

637
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: power to just be like I don't like you, la

638
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: times prit me something up bad about this guy who

639
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: cares about facts? Yeah, and we are what's fun about

640
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: this episode is you know that Billy Joel we didn't

641
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: start the fire song. There's like five different people who

642
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: are named in that song that are in this episode,

643
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: including Roy Cone. He's right before one pour on like yeah,

644
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: also Walter Winchell and Joe McCarthy, who were about to

645
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: talk about is in the song. So yeah, this is

646
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: really we're really burning through that song here. Love it.

647
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: So it was Hoover who introduced young Roy Cone to

648
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: a man who would come to define the early part

649
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: of his career, Senator Joseph McCarthy. Another get another, another

650
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: real hero. In short order, Roy became the senator's right

651
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: hand man as the Red Scare kicked up into high gear.

652
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: And this is where we need to peel away from

653
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: Roy Cone for just a moment to talk about the

654
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: House un American Activities Committee or who ACT. It was

655
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 1: established in nineteen thirty eight by a congress fuck named

656
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: Martin D's and at first it wasn't entirely a bad thing.

657
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: There were a ton of Nazi organizers and spies in

658
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: the United States doing their best to cox slap American democracy,

659
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: and the D's Committee, which turned into Who Act, helped

660
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: to identify and punish some of these guys. So not

661
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: entirely a bad thing. If there's Nazis in your country,

662
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: probably out a deal with that, probably, Yeah, yeah, you

663
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: should probably have a committee who's responsible for being like,

664
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: we got to get these Nazis out of here. Huh. Unfortunately,

665
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: happy when you read a paragraph that I can tell

666
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: you were you felt good about when you wrote it. Yeah. Now,

667
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: as is always the case with the US government, the

668
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: committee's attention soon turned away from the dangerous right wing

669
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: activists to left wing activists who Act. Was at the

670
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: forefront of an unhinged and fundamentally irrational investigation into Hollywood communists.

671
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: So they go from like actual Nazis trying to destroy

672
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: the country, trying to destroy democracy too. And there's some

673
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: comedies in Hollywood who think people a lot to have

674
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: healthcare and ship yeah, it's very funny. Um. And the

675
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: list of people in Hollywood that who Act investigates is

676
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: just fundamentally absurd. Humphrey Bogart made the list, as did

677
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 1: Clark Gable and ten year old Shirley Temple. That Shirley

678
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: tem she's dancing with the blacks. Yeah, but she's called

679
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: me badged, didn't you know? Yeah, because she's dancing with

680
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: black people. You can't have that ship. She's hiding a

681
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: secrets in each one of her individual curls. I'm trying

682
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 1: to imagine, like jan Over listening to Shirley Temple's phone calls.

683
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: It is she talking to her grandmother. She's like animal crackers,

684
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: and it must be like, what's that code for? What

685
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: is that code for her? She's got to break come

686
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: out of the zoo's. Yeah, it's very funny because when

687
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: I was a kid, like Shirley Temple was like the

688
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: symbol of American innocence in the nineteen fifties, and the

689
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: reality is that it aged ten. She was interrogated by

690
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: the FBI as to the nature of her connections to

691
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: the Communist Party. Jesus word, it's so good. You have

692
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 1: to be like, this is unhinged if you're part of

693
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: three same people, are you kidding me? And you're like,

694
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: what going on? Yeah? There was. There was briefly a

695
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: tiny amount of rationality crept into things, and then like

696
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: during World War Two, and I'm gonna quote from a

697
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: rite up in the Minnesota Playlist about that World War

698
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 1: Two put a stop to these activities. But in nineteen

699
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: forty seven the Committee renewed their investigations. Joseph McCarthy, a

700
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: junior senator from Wisconsin, wanted to make a name for himself,

701
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: and along with Attorney Roy Cone and Senator later President

702
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: Richard Nixon, the Committee assared blacklisted individuals wouldn't work for

703
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: years to come. Among those first listed Humphrey Bogert, James Cagney,

704
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: Katherine Hepburn, Gayle Saunderguard, Melvin Douglas, and Frederick Marsh. Screenwriter

705
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: Dalton Trumbo was branded a communist, but continued writing under

706
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: different aliases and one oscars. In nineteen fifty six, when

707
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: Robert Rich's name was called for the Brave One, no

708
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,439
Speaker 1: one accepted the award, causing suspicions to rise. Trumbo, under

709
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 1: the name Sam Jackson, wrote the screenplay for Spartacus, which

710
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: parallels the Huak hearings. Arthur Miller's play The Crucibles is

711
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: an allegory of these witch hunts. So if you ever

712
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: had to read The Crucible, you know or the play

713
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: at least by Miller. You can blame Roy Cone and

714
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:18,959
Speaker 1: Joe McCarthy. Now, one particularly cowardly actor, Adolph Minju cooperated

715
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: with the Committee Who Act and named names the named people,

716
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and the named people were interrogated publicly. Their

717
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: careers were shattered. Tin Brave actors and screenwriters protested this

718
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: and refused to name names. They included Iva Bessie Herman, Bibberman,

719
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: Lester Cole, Edward Dimitric Ring Larder Jr. John Howard Larson,

720
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: Albert Maltz, Samuel Ornitz, Adrian Scott, and Dalton Trumbo. Who

721
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 1: Act punished these brave people by subpoena ng the ship

722
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: out of all of them and calling them before Congress.

723
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: They were asked the now famous question are you now

724
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

725
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: All but one refused to answer the question. The House

726
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: of Representatives held them in contempt. The Screen Actors Guild

727
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: was forced to make its members swear oaths of loyalty

728
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: to the United States and members of the Crazy Thing

729
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: to do. A union for workers have to yea because

730
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: unions are comedy things. You gotta you gotta show that

731
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: you're loyal to the United States if you've gotta be

732
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: a union. Yeah, yeah, it was great. Members of the

733
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: Hollywood Ten weren't allowed to resume their careers until they

734
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: had sworn the oath and been cleared of any involvement

735
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: in the Communist Party. Many of the Hollywood Tens served

736
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: one year prison sentences. Uh, it's not cool. It's it's

737
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: a bad time that that all this happens. And this

738
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 1: is also, by the way, why Charlie Chaplin stops becoming

739
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: a major figure in Hollywood because he kind of leaves

740
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: the country and can't be in movies for a while

741
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: because he's seen as being a dirty comy. It was

742
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: of a lot of really important talent, and again very

743
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: unfairly targeted a lot of the Jewish population. That's what

744
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: Hollywood is, where the Jews hang out. Yeah. Now, Joe

745
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: McCarthy was not a member of Who Act, although Richard

746
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: Nixon was, and he was a part of all this,

747
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: but the committee's tactic served as the blueprint for what

748
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: would come to be known as his two history as

749
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: McCarthy is um. By nineteen fifty four, Senator McCarthy had

750
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: launched his own crusade to ferret communist agents and homosexuals

751
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: out of the US government. Roy Coe was his chief council.

752
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: Now does it seem weird to you that Codan McCarthy

753
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: would use the power of the Senate to hunt down

754
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: both gays and communists. Welcome to the lavender scare. Have

755
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: you heard of the lavender scare? Oh? I know all

756
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: about the last Yeah. Yeah, this is some good ship.

757
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: And by good ship, I mean terrible shit. Um, it's bad.

758
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: It started in nineteen fifty when Senator McCarthy had held

759
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: up a list during a speech in West Virginia and

760
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: claimed that the names of two hundred and five card

761
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: carrying Communists who worked in the State Department were on it.

762
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 1: A few weeks later, the Deputy under Secretary of State

763
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: had testified to the Senate Appropriations Committee that his department

764
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: did not hire communists, but that they had fired a

765
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: number of people for being security risks, including ninety one homosexuals.

766
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: This sparked mass panic within the government, and a later

767
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: Congressional Republicans ordered an investigation into the homosexual problem and

768
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: the infiltration of sexual perverts and government. Now it's just

769
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, it's not great. Whenever large political parties

770
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: start talking about group X problem. You know, yeah, that

771
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: not not great. Um, So it just so happens that

772
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: Roy Cone was super gay, like real, real, very much,

773
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: very very much gay, and and Joe McCarthy also probably

774
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: pretty gay. Um and yeah uh and again Roy is

775
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: like Roy is famous later in his life for taking

776
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: a new lover every single day, like like young male prostitutes,

777
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: like every single day, like and and at this point

778
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: in time he is gay, and so is probably McCarthy

779
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: and not just that. But before like all of these

780
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 1: trials get going in earnest, um, Roy Cone gets together

781
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: with one of Joe McCarthy's with an aid that he

782
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: and Joe McCarthy had hired that both he and McCarthy

783
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: had a gigantic crush on. And Cone and this guy

784
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: travel around Europe looking for like in military bases they

785
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: have like libraries and ship looking for communist books in

786
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: libraries and like also just traveling around Europe together and yeah,

787
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: like like they're you know, they're partying in in making

788
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: love by night and banning books from like uh State

789
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: Department libraries by day for being communists. Like it's a

790
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: very weird honeymoon that those two have. It's like it's

791
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: I really feel like this is a reaction of like,

792
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: if we don't get these other people there, other people

793
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: will come for us. Like it's very much like, oh,

794
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: we're not gay, ha ha them over there. And the

795
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: fact that you know all of the inside scoop, like

796
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: if if you're gay, especially in this time even nowadays,

797
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: you like you know where the other gays are, where

798
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: to go, you know what to look for, you know

799
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: the trade secrets, you know the lingo. It is like

800
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: it is beyond immoral to like, it's incredible people. But

801
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: then these people who are already scared and afraid for

802
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: their lives, he just set them on fire. We'll talk

803
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: about this is a bit too. One of the things

804
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: that's also extra evil about all this is that it's

805
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,919
Speaker 1: not just that Roy Cohne and probably Joe McCarthy are gay.

806
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 1: It's that most of their fellow congress people who are

807
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: persecuting the gay people that Conan McCarthy bring to them

808
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 1: in like in Congress know that Conan McCarthy are gay.

809
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 1: They make jokes about it, like, but they're also not

810
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: punishing them and punishing other people, like it's all it's

811
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: very bad because these are the games we can trust. Yeah,

812
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: these are like themselves. This is this is the Candice

813
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: Owen's problem. Yeah today when just clearly hates being black

814
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: and black people so goddamn much that she'll do anything

815
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: to make sure people know that she hates it. Yeah, ridiculous.

816
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: It's wild because like family member who give interviews will

817
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: say that Roy would have done anything to hide his

818
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: homosexuality from the public eye. And at the same time

819
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people knew that he was gay while

820
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: he was prosecuting other gape. It's a very strange situation.

821
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: Who was going to cross him? Though? If you're the

822
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: king gossip and you know all the things also Rocom

823
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: being gay and the king of gossip is just sir, sir,

824
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: I can see you. What a ridiculous man. Okay, Perez Hilton, like,

825
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: calm down. And one of the things that so there's

826
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 1: debate historically over how much Joe McCarthy is the driver

827
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: of the red scare and how much it's Roy Cone

828
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: manipulating Joe McCarthy because McCarthy is again not just a

829
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: drinker but like and not just an alcoholic, but like

830
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: an alcoholic who cut his life short by like thirty

831
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: years because of the sheer shocking quantity he drank. So

832
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: there are people who will argue that McCarthy was very

833
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 1: easy for Cone to manipulate, and that the Red scare

834
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 1: was largely orchestrated by Cone, and that he just wanted

835
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: McCarthy upfront to kind of take the hits if it

836
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: blew act on them, which is what happened. So again,

837
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: people will make that argument, and you can make it.

838
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: There's also people who would say that no, no, no,

839
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: McCarthy while he was drunk, was was as much a

840
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: driver of this is Roy Kane. I don't I'm not

841
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: an expert on either man, so I'm not going to

842
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: weigh in there, but you can find people who will

843
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: make either case. Um. Yeah, So the panic over gay

844
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: people and gay people being you know, communist infiltrators came

845
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: at a great time for Joe McCarthy because the panic

846
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: this like the Lavender scare, started when it started to

847
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: become clear that old tail Gunner Joe, which was McCarthy's nickname,

848
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: had no proof that any of the two five names

849
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: on that list that he's he held up we're actually communists.

850
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from a paper titled The Power

851
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: of Masculinity by Layla Tally now quote. To save face

852
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: with his colleagues in the American public, he changed his tactics,

853
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: calling out those he was unable to trace back to

854
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 1: Communism as being homosexual. This began what is now called

855
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: the Lavender Scare. According to McCarthy, homosexuals presented a huge

856
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: security risk because of the ease with which they could

857
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: be blackmailed. Therefore, they could not be trusted to hold

858
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: government jobs during a time when the threat of Communist

859
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: infiltration was so high. Although McCarthy was the man responsible

860
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 1: for making the initial allegations, he was not the party

861
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: responsible for rounding up the sexual deviance and questioning them.

862
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: Clyde Hoey was recruited to lead the investigation, and according

863
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: to the transcripts from the hearings, Roy Kohane was responsible

864
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: for the majority of the questioning. Now, obviously a lot

865
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: of this questioning happened under apps, but thankfully some of

866
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: the victims of the Lavender Scare later discussed what they experienced.

867
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote from a write up on

868
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: the Lavender Scare in The Feminist Review, which describes the

869
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: story of one Department of Commerce employee who was interrogated,

870
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: probably by Roy Khne. I mean this is so you

871
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: get an idea of what these interrogations were like. Like

872
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 1: all civil service employees working during the Eisenhower administration, Metal Intrusts,

873
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: a twenty four year old business economist at the Department

874
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: of Commerce in Washington, d C. Was required to pass

875
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: a security investigation as a condition for employment at her

876
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: position for only a few months. On that April day

877
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: and night, teen, Madeline was led into a room by

878
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: two male interrogators who began the interview by asking her

879
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: a few mundane questions regarding her name, where she lived,

880
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: in her date of birth mistrust. One of the interrogators

881
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: then retorted, the Commission has information that you are an

882
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: admitted homosexual. What comment do you wish to make regarding

883
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 1: this matter? Shocked, Madaline froze and refused to answer the question.

884
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: The men disclosed that they had reliable information that she

885
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: had been seen frequenting a gay bar, the Redskins Lounge,

886
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,919
Speaker 1: and they named a number of her lesbian and gay

887
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: male friends. One of the men then sneered, how do

888
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: you like having sex with women? You've never had it

889
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: good until you've had it from a man tormented into silence.

890
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: Following the interrogation, she refused to sign a document admitting

891
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: her alleged crime, and she she quit the next day,

892
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: as any sane person would listen, if you're going it,

893
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: it shouldn't. But it does add more insult to me

894
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: that you went with the lamest, most common thing, lesbian's hero.

895
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: Like you've never had a good dick, So they don't

896
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 1: want your dick, they never wanted it, they're not interested.

897
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: Please leave them alone. It is again, and nothing that

898
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: happened in America should be shocking to me, and yet

899
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: it's still always so upsetting to hear that you can

900
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: be dragged into a room and berated within an inch

901
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: of your life simply because maybe somebody saw you walking

902
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: into a building. Yeah, and it's it's I I want

903
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: to be clear here. Actually that took place in nineteen

904
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: fifty eight, and Cone was out of the government at

905
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: that point because of stuff that will talk about that

906
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: happens later. But that's the kind of like number one,

907
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: he set that into motion. It continues for decades after

908
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: he leaves government. And that's what the interrogations were like,

909
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: Like you can assume that's more or less like the

910
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: ones Cone carried out, even though we don't necessarily have

911
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 1: a ton of transcripts from those. Um So, the lavender

912
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: scare was a calamity for the gay community in the

913
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, which had enough problems on its hands as

914
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 1: it was, like, nineteen fifties already not an easy time

915
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: to be gay. You don't need this ship. Yeah, And

916
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: it was also a calamity for a bunch of random

917
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: straight people who got falsely accused. Hundreds of people lost

918
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: their jobs, unknown but significant numbers committed suicide due to

919
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: the public shame. The long term fallout lasted more than

920
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: two decades, and the federal government went so far as

921
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 1: to calculate estimates of the total number of homosexuals in

922
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: d C. The numbers swung from five thousand to fifty thousand,

923
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: depending on who did the calculations. Layla tal Yeah, I

924
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: mean yeah, they think gay people breathe fire at this point,

925
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 1: so we shouldn't be interrational fear. I have ever heard

926
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: one of the idea that like, none of them can

927
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: keep a secret, y'all are wild, Yeah, Layla Tally writes, quote.

928
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 1: The Metropolitan Police were also asked to index the name, address, occupation,

929
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: and age of almost five thousand suspected sex perverts in

930
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: the area. A vice squad was created to investigate a

931
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: possible link between homosexuality and communism, but the government never

932
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: agreed that the two were related. The individuals let go

933
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 1: this time due to their sexuality were officially fired because

934
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,919
Speaker 1: they were uncommonly susceptible to blackmail. About of the total

935
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: United States workforce had been investigated and interviewed in the

936
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: three year per eat between when McCarthy named gays in

937
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,879
Speaker 1: the State Department and when President Eisenhower issued his order

938
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: demanding all homosexuals be terminated from the US government with

939
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: Executive Order ten four fifty. So, again, because of the

940
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: ship that Conan McCarthy start, twenty of the entire U

941
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 1: S workforce gets interrogated for their possible homosexuality. Twenty percent, yes,

942
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: truly of the nation's workforce. Yeah, I mean, if you

943
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: were in the fifties like I am, I have to

944
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: start stand and applaud your ability to stand in the

945
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 1: face of that kind of oppression. I've I've lived through

946
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: Prop eight and through Don't Ask, Don't Tell, And I

947
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: thought all of that was harrowing. I had no I

948
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: knew about the lavender scare. I had no idea that

949
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: it extended that far and affected that much of the

950
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: entire population of the United States. Harrowing stuff, man, I mean, like,

951
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: and this is the thing, like you talked about, Roy Cone,

952
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 1: He affected millions of people's lives because, like just at

953
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: this point, just because of this ship that he starts now.

954
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: During this whole period, Roy was the government's main anti

955
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: gay attack dog. He was the guy Joe McCarthy sent

956
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: in to carry out interrogations, possibly including you know, including

957
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: a lot of interrogations. And Roy was not living the

958
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: repressed life of a self hating gay man during this period.

959
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: In fact, it was literally the opposite. He spent his

960
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: nights out at a rotating carousel of gay bars. He

961
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 1: had sex with men constantly, but he denied that made

962
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: him the same as the gay men he spent his

963
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: days pass Not this fucker, Yeah, listen. Roy had sex

964
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: with other men every single day of his life, basically,

965
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: and also never considered himself gay. Bro. First of all,

966
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: everybody's a little gay everybody. Second of all, mom my guy.

967
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: The repression and mental gymnastics to pull that off to

968
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 1: be like, no, I'm attracted and I'm going to sleep

969
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: with but it doesn't make me gay. So what is

970
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: your definition of gay? What are you doing? He wouldn't

971
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: even say that he was attracted to men. He preferred

972
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: to say that, he said he All he would say

973
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: is that he preferred to quote expend his sexual energies

974
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 1: on men but not women. Bros like of like, oh,

975
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: it's more masculine to take a man. I know that

976
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: he was a power top and it disturbing and disgusting. Yeah,

977
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: it's not cool. I mean it's not It's fine to

978
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: be a power top, but it's not cool to do

979
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: what Roy's doing. Um. And he would also tell anyone

980
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: who asked that he was no pansy. By this, he's

981
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 1: a he's a terrible person. Like again, his friends said

982
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: that he was the embodiment of human evil. The people

983
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: who liked him like said that. So yeah, quote he'd

984
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: tell anyone who asked that he was no pansy. And

985
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: by this quote he meant that even though he engaged

986
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: in sexual relations with men, he did not consider himself

987
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 1: to be homosexual because he was a better man than that.

988
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: During the actual Senate hearings pertaining to the higher risk

989
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: of employing homosexuals. Cone was often on descendingly an accusatory

990
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: in his line of questioning. McCarthy, who presided over most

991
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: of the hearings, allowed this line of questioning with no objections.

992
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 1: In the case of Eric L. Kohler, for example, Cone

993
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: delved into Mr. Kohler's personal life and presented personal letters

994
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: that had absolutely nothing to do with his job as evidence.

995
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: Cone also used the technique of frequently repeating Mr Kohler's

996
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: responses to him for emphasis and intimidation. By questioning Mr

997
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: Kohler in this manner, Cone was able to easily confuse

998
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 1: Kohler and made him appear to be lying. He's a

999
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: very abusive guy, like fundamentally just an abusive, bad person.

1000
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: I would like a collection of essays from many people

1001
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: as he slept with as possible, so that I can

1002
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 1: understand the experience of being with somebody who hates themselves. Yeah. Sorry,

1003
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: There's two good documentaries. One is Where's My Roy Cone?

1004
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 1: And one is um Bully Coward Victim I think is

1005
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: the name of it, which is another documentary about Roy Cone,

1006
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: and that Will Will explain. Will explain why it is

1007
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: that title. Well, there's there's actually a good reason behind

1008
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: why that title is what it is. Um, but yeah,

1009
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: and they talked to at least one of those has

1010
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: an interview with with one or two of his his

1011
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: former like sexual partners. I don't know if lovers is

1012
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: the right term, because I'm not sure that that's to

1013
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: me that Roy was the kind of gay who was

1014
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: like well, and we saw this more in the nineties,

1015
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 1: probably because of Roy Cohen's influence with the idea that

1016
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: if you're not falling in love with the people you're

1017
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: having sex with, then that's not yours, your your sexual

1018
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: I forget how we title these things. Yeah, then that

1019
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,800
Speaker 1: makes you not gay, which is again bananas. It's bananas.

1020
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 1: If you're attracted strictly to males and you do not

1021
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: want to have sex with females, that is just categorically

1022
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,439
Speaker 1: you're gay. Yes, it's okay, and it's it's fine, that's

1023
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: perfectly fine. But if you are a man who exclusively

1024
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 1: has sex with other men every day of your life,

1025
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: you should it's you're gay, like and it's fine. Roy,

1026
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: it would have been fine if you hadn't been such

1027
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: a piece of ship to everybody, you know, the gay community.

1028
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: Really we love we love other gaye man. You could

1029
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 1: have been in here getting in on this love fest

1030
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: like well, not after the Lavender Scare, that before that,

1031
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 1: you could have made a choice to be proud of

1032
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: who you were and been accepted and loved. And instead,

1033
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, made choices. He made some choices. Now, obviously

1034
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: the damage that Cone helped to do during the Lavender

1035
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: Scare was incalculable. But you know what damage isn't incalculable, Joel, Well,

1036
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 1: what kind the damage done by our products and services

1037
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:42,879
Speaker 1: to your wallet? A slag? Where we're back, So we're

1038
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: talking about Roy Cone and the horrible, horrible impact of

1039
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 1: his his his his crimes on the world. All over

1040
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 1: the nation, Americans, particularly Americans working in the government started

1041
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: spying on each other as a result of the Red

1042
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: Scare that Conan McCarthy kicked up. They were spying not

1043
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: just to see who might be a red, but to

1044
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: see who might be gay. And in fact, some people

1045
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: will make the case that the entire national security establishment

1046
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 1: that we have now, the espionage state, that is, you know,

1047
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: spying one way or another and all of our communications

1048
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: was started by Conan McCarthy that they are the reasons

1049
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: for like everything that's snowden uncovered about the n s A,

1050
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: that that ball got rolling because of McCarthy and Cone. Um.

1051
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's you know, a comprehensive case

1052
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: that you can make, but some people will argue it. Now, yeah,

1053
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: and again it was you know, it starts this avalanche

1054
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: of paranoia with an American culture. And in one particularly

1055
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: absurd case, a woman accused her boss of being a

1056
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: lesbian on the basis that she had peculiar lips not large,

1057
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: but oddly shaped, quote, a funny feeling, the fact that

1058
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: this one was single, and the fact that she had

1059
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in China. Um. So, like,

1060
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: that's the sort of like people are like. One person

1061
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: is like this woman is accused of being a lesbian

1062
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: and a communist because she has very little in the

1063
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: way of hips. Like that's that's the kind of the

1064
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: kind of shift that starts coming out at this point. Um. Yeah,

1065
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: the whole of America goes kind of fucking bonkers. So

1066
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: during this whole period of the Lavender scare, Cone was

1067
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: also helping his boss carry out the Red Scare because again,

1068
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: everyone with power just sort of decided that gay and

1069
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: communists were synonyms. It was usually Cone's job, during, you know,

1070
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: interrogations in the committee to ask the question, are you

1071
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: now or have you ever been a member of the

1072
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: Communist Party. After the nineteen fifty two elections, the Republicans

1073
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: won control of both houses of Congress for the first

1074
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: time in a generation. McCarthy became the chairman of the

1075
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: Senate Committee on Government Operations and its Subcommittee on Investigations.

1076
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: This allowed him to expand his search outside the State Department,

1077
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: to other government agencies and to the broadcasting and defense industries.

1078
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: He started prowling around university faculties in the United Nations.

1079
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: Wherever McCarthy and Cohne went, their investigations shattered careers and lives.

1080
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: What they didn't find we're communist sleeper agents. The whole

1081
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: affair came to a disastrous lusion in nineteen fifty four,

1082
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: largely as a result of Roy Cone's horny nous. G

1083
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: David Shine had been one of McCarthy's aids and Roy

1084
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 1: Cohne's big time crush, and in fact probably both men

1085
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: had a big crush on David Shine, but he was

1086
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: definitely Khne's boyfriend. This is the guy he was traveling

1087
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 1: around Europe with, David Shine. Yeah. Now, unfortunately Shine was

1088
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: drafted in nineteen fifty three, either out of genuine affection

1089
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: or out of a desire to make sure that a

1090
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: hot guy didn't get mangled in a war. Roy immediately

1091
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: tried to intercede on Shine's behalf to the Army. He

1092
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: first tried to convince them to commission his friend as

1093
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 1: an officer. The Army said no, because he didn't have

1094
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: any skills that would, you know, justify commissioning him. So

1095
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: Cone demanded that Shine get extra leaves so he could

1096
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: go home and funck Roy more often. Shockingly, the Army

1097
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: did not agree to do this either. Now Joe McCarthy

1098
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: was just as enraged as Cone, because again Joe was

1099
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:53,919
Speaker 1: also kind of had at the hots for this guy,

1100
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: and rather than accept that their friend had to do

1101
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: his time in the service, Conan McCarthy accused the Army

1102
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 1: of drafting Shine in retaliation for their attempts to uncover

1103
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: communists heiding in the military. The investigation they carried out

1104
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: on the US Army lasted two months, and one of

1105
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: the really bizarre things about it is that you get

1106
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 1: the feeling again. Everyone involved knew that Conan McCarthy were

1107
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: gay and doing this to get a lover out of

1108
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: the service. Congressman joke about Roy Cone being a fairy

1109
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 1: in like you can find video of this, like yeah,

1110
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: while he is, Yeah, it's it's really something else. Um,

1111
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: it's very gross. It's one of those things you almost

1112
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: feel you start to feel sorry for Cone for a

1113
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: second during that part of the video and you realize, like, oh,

1114
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: you persecuted thousands of game Like, fuck you, Roy, I'm

1115
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: not gonna feel bad for you. Did you well? And

1116
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: like you made it this sham? Like you your why

1117
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: this is happening? Yeah, exactly, Like before games were just

1118
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: persecuted by the religious and now they have to worry

1119
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: about their entire government coming down on their house. Fuck

1120
01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: you forever, dude. Yeah, piece of ship. Yeah, it's it's remarkable.

1121
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: The Army spokesman referred to Shine and Cone snig ly

1122
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: as warm personal friends, to which Roy responded, he is

1123
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: one of my many good friends, sir. Yes. The courtroom

1124
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: behind him laughed uneasily in response because they knew what

1125
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: was being discussed. We have transcripts from the investigation, and

1126
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 1: I want to read from them now. It starts with

1127
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: one fellow, Mr Adams, being questioned by the Army about

1128
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 1: a conversation he witnessed between Roy Cone and Senator McCarthy.

1129
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: Mr Adams, I said, let's talk about shine. That started

1130
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 1: a chain of events, an experience similar to none which

1131
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 1: I have had in my life. Mr Cohne became extremely agitated,

1132
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: became extremely abusive. He cursed me and then Senator McCarthy.

1133
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: The abuse went in waves. He would be very abusive,

1134
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: and then it would kind of a bait and things

1135
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: would be friendly for a few moments. Everyone would eat

1136
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: a little bit more, and then it would start in again.

1137
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: It just kept on. I was trying to catch a

1138
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: one thirty train, but Mr Cohne was so violent by

1139
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 1: them that I felt I had better not do it

1140
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 1: and leave him that angry with me and that angry

1141
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:00,919
Speaker 1: with Senator McCarthy because of a remark I had made.

1142
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: So I stayed and missed my one thirty train. I

1143
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: thought surely I would be able to get out of

1144
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: there by two thirty. The luncheon concluded, and then at

1145
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: this point, someone named Mr Jenkins, who's a member of

1146
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 1: the committee asked him, you said you were afraid to

1147
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: leave Senator McCarthy alone there with him. Mr Adams, What

1148
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 1: did he say? You said? He was very abusive, Mr Adams,

1149
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 1: he was extremely abusive. Mr Jenkins asks, was or not

1150
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: any obscene language used? Mr? Adams? Yes, Mr Jenkins, just

1151
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 1: admit that and tell me what he did say which

1152
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: constituted abuse in your opinion, Mr Adams, I have stated before, Sir,

1153
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: the tone of the voice has as much to do

1154
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: with abuse as the words. I do not remember the phrases.

1155
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: I do not remember the sentences, but I do remember

1156
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: the violence. Mr Jenkins. Do you remember the subject, Mr Adams?

1157
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 1: The subject was Shine. The subject was the fact. The

1158
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 1: thing that Kohen was angry about, the thing that he

1159
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: was so violent about was the fact that one the

1160
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: Army was not agreeing to an assignment for Shine, and

1161
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: to that Senator McCarthy was not supporting his staff and

1162
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: its efforts to get Shine assigned to New York. So

1163
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 1: his abuse was directed partly to me and partly to

1164
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: Senator McCarthy. As I say, it kind of came in waves.

1165
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: There would be a period of extreme abuse, and then

1166
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 1: there would be a period where it would almost get

1167
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 1: back to normal, and ice cream would be ordered, and

1168
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 1: then about halfway through that a little more of the same.

1169
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 1: I missed the two thirty train. Also, this violence continued.

1170
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 1: It was a remarkable thing. At first, Senator McCarthy seemed

1171
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: to be trying to conciliate He seemed to be trying

1172
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: to conciliate Cone and not to state anything contrary to

1173
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 1: what he had stated to me in the morning. But

1174
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: then he more or less lapsed into silence. So I

1175
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 1: went down to Room one oh one. Mr Cohne was there,

1176
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 1: and Mr Carr was there. As I remember, we lunched

1177
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 1: together in the Senate cafeteria and everything was peaceful when

1178
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: we returned to Room one oh one. Towards the later

1179
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: part of the conversation, I asked Cone, I knew that

1180
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: nine of all inductees ultimately face overseas duty, and I

1181
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 1: knew that one day we were going to face that

1182
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: problem with Mr Cohen as to Shine, So I thought

1183
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: I would lay a little groundwork for future trouble, I guessed.

1184
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: I asked him what would happen if Shine got overseas duty?

1185
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: Mr Jenkins, you mean you were breaking the news gently?

1186
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 1: Mr Adams, Mr Adams. Yes, sir, that is right. I

1187
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,919
Speaker 1: asked him what would happen if Shine got overseas duty?

1188
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: He responded with vigor and force. Stevens is through as

1189
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: secretary as the Army of the Army. I said, oh, Roy,

1190
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 1: something to this effect. Oh, Roy, don't say that. Come on, really,

1191
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 1: what is going to happen if if Shane receives overseas duty?

1192
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: Cone responded with even more force, we will wreck the army.

1193
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so there's a lot there. America said, screwt

1194
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: what you can't turn the same things that you used

1195
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: on communists and at the army, Roy, you've lost sight

1196
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,919
Speaker 1: of the goal here, you've lost sight of the goal

1197
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: and also have gone after the one thing that Americans

1198
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 1: actually consider sacred, which is our army. And like, yeah,

1199
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 1: that that's not going to end well for you, Roy, Um.

1200
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 1: You can go after a bunch of powerless gay people

1201
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: and accused communist, but if you attack the army, things

1202
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: are going to end badly. But what I think is

1203
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 1: really fascinating there is because there's again this debate over

1204
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: was Joe McCarthy the driving force behind the Red Scare

1205
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,919
Speaker 1: or was it Cone driving him? And that transcript makes

1206
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 1: me think that the people saying it was Roy have

1207
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 1: a point, because that that is textbook abusive behavior. That

1208
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: is absolutely the textbook of like he's screaming and he's

1209
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: screaming at you, and then he's nice and he's normal,

1210
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 1: and things get back to normal, and then he starts

1211
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: screaming in yeah, and you get ice cream and like

1212
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: he's he's he's doing that thing that abusive people do

1213
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 1: to like abusive partners do. And I don't know, I

1214
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: don't think he and McCarthy had any sort of romantic connection,

1215
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 1: but I do think that emotionally they kind of had

1216
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: that that sort of thing going on. And Roy is

1217
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 1: basically vacillating between when you make me angry and the

1218
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: slightest I will become so horribly abusive to you that

1219
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 1: this guy Mr Adams, who's like an army dude, um,

1220
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 1: is horrified by how cruel I am to you, and

1221
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 1: then everything will be nice and normal and we'll be

1222
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 1: friends again. And then if you say anything that's said

1223
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 1: like yeah, and you see the chaos and confusion that

1224
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: for this poor guy who's like I couldn't even tell

1225
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: you what was being said that you know, I was afraid.

1226
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: I was just struck by the violence. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1227
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 1: I yeah, woff. I can't feel bad for McCarthy because

1228
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 1: you allowed your self to be no, no, Nothy a

1229
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: way to hand you And it's what a person to

1230
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: hand your career over to. One of the things that

1231
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: is striking about this I have to assume this guy,

1232
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 1: Mr Adams is like a pretty normal man for his

1233
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: time and position. But that's a very nuanced and like

1234
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: complicated understanding of an abusive personality that he just laid

1235
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 1: out to Congress like that's yeah. And to be able

1236
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:26,919
Speaker 1: to like, I feel like a lot of men would

1237
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: have been like, oh, well, he was just yelling and yeah, guys,

1238
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 1: get some time for him to be like, no, it

1239
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: was dangerous, and so I put myself in the line

1240
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: of danger. I couldn't leave McCarthy alone with him. Oh man,

1241
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 1: that's a really big thing to do. I think. I

1242
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: think the thing the thing that Adams recognizes that I'm

1243
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 1: most impressed with is the understand that like, no, it

1244
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what he said, it's the way he said it.

1245
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 1: It's the violence with which he said it that was

1246
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: that was the disturbing thing. That's a really kind of

1247
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 1: an impressive recognition for a fifties dude, you know, absolutely, yeah. Um, anyway,

1248
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 1: that's episode one of Roy kone Wow, fun Guy, no bit. Yeah,

1249
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the conclusion of the Red Scare

1250
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: and also the conclusion of Roy's life, which unfortunately happens

1251
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: many decades later after a lot more fucking around. We'll

1252
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,320
Speaker 1: be talking about trains, We'll be talking about Reagan. It's

1253
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 1: going to be great. It's gonna be terrible. You're gonna

1254
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: be talking about trains, lots of trains, lots of trains,

1255
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 1: toy trains. They're coming back. He comes from train money,

1256
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 1: toy train money. Yeah. Joel, do you have any thing

1257
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 1: you want to plug? Uh? Not really? And Jel Monique

1258
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 1: you can find me all over the internet at Joel Monique.

1259
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 1: That's j O E L E M O N I

1260
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: q U E. If you're not following or what the fuck,

1261
01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: get into my Beyonce love. All right, Well that's the

1262
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: end of the episode. Joel, thank you for talking with

1263
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Speaker 1: me about Roy Cone fun guy, who's super fun. Robert,

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Speaker 1: thank you for breaking it down. Please please, I really

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Speaker 1: feel like you're going to appreciate the animated musical cartoon

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Speaker 1: they did over at H The Real Fight. Yes. Uh

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Speaker 1: and also listeners, go watch it. It's on YouTube. It's

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Speaker 1: like three minutes, but it's basically all of the goodness

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Speaker 1: Robert gave you can dens into three minutes and it

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Speaker 1: makes Roy Clun looks stupid and hilarious and that's always fun. Yeah, Robert,

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Speaker 1: anything you want to plug. No, I've never done anything

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Speaker 1: in my entire life other than this exact episode of

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Speaker 1: this podcast. It's my only my only completed work. Oh uprising, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've got I also did one other thing. It's a

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Speaker 1: podcast about the protests, the BLM movement and the the

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01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:56,639
Speaker 1: fighting with right wing uh fascist paramilitaries in Portland over

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Speaker 1: the summer and uh an autumn of It's called Upright

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Speaker 1: as a guy from Portland. Check it out. It'll be

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Speaker 1: out by the time this episode drops. Yeah, we vital listening.

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Speaker 1: Check it out. I can't wait, all right? Uh that's

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Speaker 1: episode one. Yep, who wo