Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.
Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Today we're diving into a topic that has
Speaker 1: really only started to get the attention it deserves, menopause.
Speaker 1: My guest is someone who's breaking the silence and changing
Speaker 1: the conversation around it, the incredible Naomi Watts. You know
Speaker 1: her as an award winning actress, but today she's here
Speaker 1: as an author, sharing her deeply personal journey in her
Speaker 1: incredibly candid, informative, and yes funny book Wait Till You
Speaker 1: Hear about the night she was frantically trying to scrub
Speaker 1: off her estrogen patch before getting to it, something I
Speaker 1: could totally relate to. By the way, the book is
Speaker 1: aptly called Dare I say it? Everything I wish I'd
Speaker 1: known about menopause, because Naomi definitely goes there. She says
Speaker 1: she wanted her book to feel like a cozy chat
Speaker 1: with a girlfriend, despite the serious subject. She discovered she
Speaker 1: was on the precipice of menopause at just thirty six,
Speaker 1: the same time she wanted to start a family. She
Speaker 1: felt devastated and alone, and was shocked by a sense
Speaker 1: that doctors and even family members thought she should just
Speaker 1: suffer through it. Naomi is now in a mission to educate, embrace,
Speaker 1: and empower women, so their journey might be a little smoother.
Speaker 1: I really had a good time talking to her. Here's
Speaker 1: my conversation with Naomi Watts. Naomi, I had so much
Speaker 1: fun reading your book. I felt like you and I
Speaker 1: were spending a lot of time together, and I learned
Speaker 1: a lot about you, a.
Speaker 2: Lot, probably too much. No, Actually, I.
Speaker 1: Really appreciated your candor and the fact that you were
Speaker 1: so open, and also that you used so many experts
Speaker 1: and gave so much valuable information. And this is something
Speaker 1: I know that you've been thinking about for some time time.
Speaker 1: But why did you decide? Damn it, I'm going to
Speaker 1: write this book and I'm just going to lay it
Speaker 1: out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'd been thinking about it, as many of us.
Speaker 2: When we have ideas that we sit on them, we
Speaker 2: think on them, we percolate on them, we fear them.
Speaker 2: So it takes a process to get to that point
Speaker 2: where you're ready. If you read the book, then you
Speaker 2: will see that I am very I got there very
Speaker 2: early and was very much alone and feeling scared and
Speaker 2: didn't have a community. I was thirty six when I
Speaker 2: was told I was about to go into menopause right
Speaker 2: at the prespoe of wanting to start a family. So
Speaker 2: that collision of two things creating a huge amount of fear,
Speaker 2: just left me undone, frankly, and I needed a support
Speaker 2: system and didn't have it. And I wished there was
Speaker 2: a book that was a little bit more, you know,
Speaker 2: where I could find support, I could find expert advice
Speaker 2: and some fun along the way, as it isn't or
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be so doom and gloom, you know.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to create a book that had not
Speaker 2: just my story, but it was infused with other women's
Speaker 2: stories with some humor, pain points their distress, my distress, despair,
Speaker 2: as well as the facts as we know them of
Speaker 2: the current place, speaking to fantastic doctors. Because there's a
Speaker 2: lot of books out there now which are incredibly helpful,
Speaker 2: but sometimes they can be too dense, you know, with
Speaker 2: all just the facts, and so I wanted it to
Speaker 2: feel like a cozy chat with my girlfriend, so that
Speaker 2: I could say, hey, this is what worked for me,
Speaker 2: this is what was awful, this was what was great,
Speaker 2: this is what I've learned along the way, and I
Speaker 2: can back it up up with this conversation with that
Speaker 2: doctor and that doctor, and.
Speaker 1: I think it really was effective because it was so
Speaker 1: personal and yet also, as I mentioned, really informational, and
Speaker 1: I think some of the struggles to understand women's bodies
Speaker 1: is emblematic of a larger issue in the medical establishment.
Speaker 1: In your intro, you quote doctor Cheryl Malone, a DC
Speaker 1: based obgyn who I happen to know and we use
Speaker 1: her in our newsletter frequently. She's wonderful and she's the
Speaker 1: chief medical officer at Alloy Women's Health. She's one of
Speaker 1: the leading menopause practitioners in the country. And you quote
Speaker 1: her saying, I think one of the things that we
Speaker 1: have got to understand, and study after study has substantiated this,
Speaker 1: is that we have really normalized suffering as a part
Speaker 1: of womanhood. We suffer from cramps, we suffer in childbirth,
Speaker 1: we suffer from pre menstrual syndrome. These things that exclusively
Speaker 1: affect women have been understudied across the board because the
Speaker 1: expectation is that if women suffer, it is not deemed
Speaker 1: worthy of redress. Women exaggerate, were hysterical, it's all in
Speaker 1: your head. This unfortunate perception is still all too common
Speaker 1: in medicine today. Women still feel they're not heard, they're
Speaker 1: not seen, and they're not believed. And that's the problem there.
Speaker 2: You have it, I mean, yeah, we were told to
Speaker 2: suffer through it. When I asked my mom why she
Speaker 2: didn't tell me more about menopause, she said, I didn't
Speaker 2: have these conversations with you because I never had them
Speaker 2: with my mother, as if to say there was some
Speaker 2: code of silence that was agreed upon generation by generation,
Speaker 2: which is absurd. Why should we suck it up and suffer?
Speaker 2: There's absolutely no reason when treatment is available, and the
Speaker 2: same thing goes for I mean, I remember having my
Speaker 2: first baby. I thought, no, I mustn't have an epidural.
Speaker 2: I must suffer through this. Be a natural birth woman,
Speaker 2: you know, And that's absurd. If you're feeling extreme pain,
Speaker 2: why should you just because other women have said that's important,
Speaker 2: or society has said you must be natural. If you
Speaker 2: cannot do it, you should not feel bad about that.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what doctor Charon Malone is speaking to.
Speaker 2: We just said, okay, we should.
Speaker 1: Suffer, and not only women have they traditionally not been
Speaker 1: listened to. You know, the term hysterical, But the amount
Speaker 1: of money spent on research is just absurd when you
Speaker 1: compare male illnesses with women. Women for so long have
Speaker 1: been just viewed as small men.
Speaker 2: Until nineteen ninety three that we were even used in
Speaker 2: clinical trials.
Speaker 1: Which is insane. And I did a podcast with Susan Dominus,
Speaker 1: a New York Times writer, in April twenty twenty three. Yes,
Speaker 1: that was one of the most shame changing articles. It
Speaker 1: was a cover story in the New York Times magazine
Speaker 1: and it was really about the history of hormone replacement
Speaker 1: therapy in Naomi. I lived through this because I was
Speaker 1: covering that study to some degree, and it got completely
Speaker 1: botched in the messaging. And it's probably a little too
Speaker 1: complicated for us to go really go deep into it.
Speaker 1: But let's just kind of give a refresher on what
Speaker 1: happened to the Women's Health Initiative and why it was stopped.
Speaker 1: And what I think about, Naomi is all those lost
Speaker 1: years of research that could have helped develop certain therapies
Speaker 1: for women, therapies that people like I could take, you know,
Speaker 1: as somebody who has hormone receptor positive breast cancer but
Speaker 1: was on the patch for many years loved it. I
Speaker 1: can't tell you how much I miss estrogen, but it
Speaker 1: was really misconstruction and mishandled by the NIH. Can we
Speaker 1: kind of give a brief premer on it.
Speaker 2: Yes, So the study was stopped in two thousand and
Speaker 2: two because they found that they thought there was a
Speaker 2: discovery of breast cancer that was caused by HRT. They
Speaker 2: created the study to see if heart disease was actually
Speaker 2: going to be diminished.
Speaker 1: For women postman apostle women, primarily because they thought it
Speaker 1: would be efficacious in reducing heart disease. And they showed
Speaker 1: a very very very slight risk of breast cancer, and
Speaker 1: they kind of gave this blanket statement or it was misconstrued,
Speaker 1: and then it was in the media, got applified by
Speaker 1: the media, basically scaring everyone away from hormone replacement.
Speaker 2: And not just women who were taking it, doctors who
Speaker 2: were subscribing it. Everyone literally flushed their horme bones down
Speaker 2: the toilet and the media went berserk, and then doctors
Speaker 2: to this day still hold on to that that discovery
Speaker 2: that was unfounded that has now been pedled back on.
Speaker 2: But people are just left with this enormous.
Speaker 1: Fear right and there are I mean, in fairness, there
Speaker 1: are some women who probably shouldn't take estuary.
Speaker 2: Of course, it's and that's what I go in.
Speaker 1: Therapy, right, who have a history of breast cancer, who
Speaker 1: have had breast cancer, et cetera. But it just got
Speaker 1: completely distorted in such a way that it not only
Speaker 1: scared women, but it kind of stopped the research too.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, and then a whole generation of women went
Speaker 2: untreated virtually. So what I wanted to do is in
Speaker 2: the book is really go deep into that with doctors research.
Speaker 2: And again I am not here on the soapbox saying
Speaker 2: take HRT. What is safe for you? What is your
Speaker 2: choice is up to you. But I encourage every woman
Speaker 2: to make sure they ask their doctor for the full
Speaker 2: spectrum of options, based on their medical history, based on
Speaker 2: their symptoms, based on the risk benefit. And I don't
Speaker 2: want them to have a doctor be in a situation
Speaker 2: where the doctor is just plain gatekeeping, right, And I'm
Speaker 2: not saying they shouldn't be kept from taking these drugs.
Speaker 2: It's just the conversation, right, Everyone should be allowed to
Speaker 2: have that conversation.
Speaker 1: One thing that you point out, which I think is
Speaker 1: so important, which I mentioned, Naomi, is that estrogen is
Speaker 1: this wonder hormone. I mean, it is really responsible for
Speaker 1: I think in many ways, and you can correct me
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, but brain health, sexual health, skin health.
Speaker 1: You know, I started doing HRT when I was anchoring
Speaker 1: the CBS Evening News because I thought, I do not
Speaker 1: want to have like the brain a senior moment when
Speaker 1: I don't have it. By the way, when like somebody's
Speaker 1: telling me the latest economic report and I'd be like, wait,
Speaker 1: what on live television. I also did it because of bones,
Speaker 1: and you know, in a vain way, I wanted my
Speaker 1: skin to be good. And I think that people don't
Speaker 1: appreciate what a key role estrogen plays because it also
Speaker 1: is a hormone responsible for you feeling good. I sort
Speaker 1: of got depressed when I went through menopause, and I
Speaker 1: think it was because my estrogen was decreasing.
Speaker 2: So there's still so much debate around it about the
Speaker 2: benefits of estrogen. You know. It's it's so interesting because
Speaker 2: we had that discovery and then the media and then
Speaker 2: that's been pedaled back and doctors are getting riled up
Speaker 2: about it, and then women are saying, yes, I've got
Speaker 2: to have estrogen, And now there's been another you know
Speaker 2: curve that has where doctors are saying, well, the benefits
Speaker 2: are not what everyone is saying on social media.
Speaker 1: Oh really. Well, I also think even thet.
Speaker 2: I wrote the book, really you know, still debate to
Speaker 2: this day.
Speaker 1: But I also think a lot of people who aren't
Speaker 1: experts are offering opinions on social media.
Speaker 2: That's true. So you have to have to be really careful,
Speaker 2: and you have to really do the research on your
Speaker 2: own based on your medical history.
Speaker 1: And find a doctor who has time to talk to you,
Speaker 1: the one you trust.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel for these doctors who you know,
Speaker 2: they have their eight to ten minute session slots and
Speaker 2: you know, three minutes of those you're getting undressed. And
Speaker 2: you know, God forbid if you burst into tears because
Speaker 2: you've been dealing with you know, struggles in your life as.
Speaker 1: You tell these very personal stories.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's it's it's really something to consider carefully
Speaker 2: and with deep, deep research. But for me, I believe
Speaker 2: my quality of life has improved. It's safe.
Speaker 1: For me.
Speaker 2: I've trusted my doctors, I do my blood work, and
Speaker 2: I'm all about bone health. For me, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 2: it is keeping my bone strong.
Speaker 1: And you're blonde and your petite, so you're at risk
Speaker 1: for osteoporosis.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's in my family. So I have to
Speaker 2: make sure that I you know, and a lot of that.
Speaker 2: I have to protect my bones with exercise.
Speaker 1: Right, I was going to say, come lift some weights
Speaker 1: with I've just started.
Speaker 2: I weigh that all the time as much as I can.
Speaker 2: It's the most boring kind of workout.
Speaker 1: But it is put on some good music.
Speaker 2: It can be music and have an entertaining you know,
Speaker 2: gym buddy, Yeah, you know so. I mean I sometimes
Speaker 2: do it at home with videos. I sometimes go to
Speaker 2: the gym, but yeah, it's very important.
Speaker 1: It's hard for me just in the category is when
Speaker 1: I was diagnosed with hormone receptor positive breast cancer. Unfortunately
Speaker 1: it was early. Not only did they take me off
Speaker 1: estrogen my patch, I missed my patch, but they also
Speaker 1: put me on aromatase inhibitors, which basically get rid of
Speaker 1: any sintella of estrogen I might have coursing through my veins.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of hard because now I have to
Speaker 1: really focus on other ways to compensate for a lack
Speaker 1: of estrogen through exercise and supplements ET cetera.
Speaker 2: And how do you feel.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm making do I generally feel
Speaker 1: pretty well? I take care of myself and.
Speaker 2: Night sweats or any of that still or.
Speaker 1: Not too much. I had night sweats, I never had
Speaker 1: hot flashes. They sound miserable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had, yeah, the worst night sweats And sometimes
Speaker 2: still one might sneak up on me and a few
Speaker 2: hot flashes. But yeah, the night sweats can lead. You know,
Speaker 2: obviously a disturbed sleep can lead to all kinds of things, depression, anxiety,
Speaker 2: that memory blip thing. And so many women talk about
Speaker 2: how they can be in a meeting with filled with
Speaker 2: men and talking and then suddenly they lose a word
Speaker 2: and that causes real anxiety and then you lose your
Speaker 2: focus in the meeting and it can be very you know,
Speaker 2: you can just flood with shame, right and not be
Speaker 2: able to explain it to your colleagues. Like so you know,
Speaker 2: again going back to why I wrote the book was
Speaker 2: to create not just education, but community. And you know,
Speaker 2: we need.
Speaker 1: To support, right and like if that happens, and.
Speaker 2: In every place, not just at home or in our friendships,
Speaker 2: our relationship, but in the workplace as well. This is
Speaker 2: a very normal part of life, and we should have
Speaker 2: support and compassion and empathy, and like we do when
Speaker 2: our kids are going through puberty, which is a different
Speaker 2: kind of hormonal disruption, but it's it's real, and you know,
Speaker 2: we have empathy when a teenager slams the door in
Speaker 2: our face, we understand where it's coming from. But when
Speaker 2: a woman is going through menopause and her hormones are
Speaker 2: plummeting and she's having angst or you know, my kids
Speaker 2: get furious with me if I you know, forget what
Speaker 2: I'm saying, or mom just focus, you know, and I
Speaker 2: feel bad, but there's no I mean, I try to
Speaker 2: make them understand it, but they haven't been there, have they.
Speaker 2: So so yeah.
Speaker 1: The community is important and also demanding more of our
Speaker 1: healthcare system and the medical establishment that they need to
Speaker 1: pay attention to this. If you want to get smarter
Speaker 1: every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating
Speaker 1: takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up
Speaker 1: for our daily newsletter, wake Up Call by going to
Speaker 1: Katiecuric dot com. One of the things I thought was
Speaker 1: so important that you talk about in the book, Naomi,
Speaker 1: is there's a whole panoply of symptoms that accompany both
Speaker 1: perimenopause and menopause, and I think doctors often don't connect
Speaker 1: the dots. For example, you talked about someone in the
Speaker 1: book who had heart issues and she was afraid to drive,
Speaker 1: and she had gone to the cardiologist. Can you tell
Speaker 1: that story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that came from doctor Kelly Casperson, she was a
Speaker 2: doctor as well. Yeah, and she was having hot palpitations,
Speaker 2: which is a very common symptom. Again, I had that
Speaker 2: too and didn't know, but I also had been diagnosed
Speaker 2: with a heart murmur very long ago. But this woman
Speaker 2: was literally at the point where she had to go
Speaker 2: and get an EKG and they said, no, you're fine.
Speaker 2: And then the doctor said, well, how about we test
Speaker 2: your doctor her friend or doctor, doctor Keli Caspusen said
Speaker 2: let's test your hormones, let's test your bloods, and sure enough,
Speaker 2: she was in menopause. And she said, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 2: that's what it is. And this is a woman who
Speaker 2: was about to give up.
Speaker 1: Driving, right because she was afraid that she would yeah,
Speaker 1: some hard heart attack, yeah, driving her kids or something.
Speaker 1: But I think that's also so illustrative of the fact
Speaker 1: that even doctors don't study this. They spend very little
Speaker 1: time in medical school studying it. So when these symptoms
Speaker 1: are presented to medical professionals, they often.
Speaker 2: Connecting the dots. I mean every time I do a movie,
Speaker 2: I have to fill out a questionnaire, a medical questionnaire,
Speaker 2: and it's like a hundred questions. I was ticking night
Speaker 2: sweats for a good eight years and no one said, oh,
Speaker 2: that could be you know, they were I even say
Speaker 2: it in the book. There's one moment where they think
Speaker 2: it could be TB tuberculosis because that's a symptom. No
Speaker 2: one signaled it as that, and I was worried. I
Speaker 2: was like, what about my night sweat? Oh, that's probably analogy.
Speaker 2: Maybe you know I have some food or that extra
Speaker 2: glass of wine or you know, again like oh it's
Speaker 2: something I did. My fault, my fault, you know. And
Speaker 2: skin was another big problem for me as an actor,
Speaker 2: working under hot lights, lots of makeup day and day.
Speaker 1: Out, because you have extremely dry skin. I have very
Speaker 1: dry skin, irristraated. Do you get eczema?
Speaker 2: I get roseatia? I used to and yeah, I was
Speaker 2: really like having these moments where I was scratching off
Speaker 2: my skin. It was red irritated. I didn't know what
Speaker 2: was happening. I went to the dermatologist multiple times, got
Speaker 2: ointment that was soothing for a minute, but then it
Speaker 2: would recur. And I had no idea that that was
Speaker 2: related to menophause, and the doctors neither.
Speaker 1: Your story, Naomi, was particularly traumatic because, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: you learned you were going through menopause at thirty six,
Speaker 1: and it coincided with you trying to have a family.
Speaker 1: So that was sort of a double whammy for you,
Speaker 1: wasn't It talked about that period of your life and
Speaker 1: what you experience when you learn that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was shocking and lonely and scary, and I
Speaker 2: knew I really wanted to be a mother, and I
Speaker 2: went into all kinds of panic. I it wasn't a
Speaker 2: candidate for IVF. I tried clonid, I tried IUIS.
Speaker 1: I felt so for you as you were talking about
Speaker 1: this journey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was a lot of shame that came
Speaker 2: up with it, like if I didn't have my fertility,
Speaker 2: I didn't have my worth or something, which is absurd.
Speaker 2: There are lots of ways to become a mother, but
Speaker 2: I just was self loathing, flagellating all of it. I
Speaker 2: felt terrible about myself and I felt like it was
Speaker 2: me that had caused it. I had ruined my body.
Speaker 2: It was really terrible. I eventually found this fantastic book
Speaker 2: because I had what's called a high FSH level follicle
Speaker 2: stimulating hormone, and this book became my savior. Again. Why
Speaker 2: I wanted a book, you know, because I would read
Speaker 2: that book secretly. I've tied that book.
Speaker 1: What was it called again?
Speaker 2: It was called Inconceivable by Julia Indichova, and she also
Speaker 2: had a high f SH level and she went through
Speaker 2: different ways of how to create a lower level. And
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, whether it was the book, I also
Speaker 2: was trying Chinese herbs. I went to China. There's a
Speaker 2: funny story.
Speaker 1: With the translator and the doctor and.
Speaker 2: It happened to be filming there and I found my
Speaker 2: way to a herbalist. So, you know, I don't ever
Speaker 2: want to presume to, you know, push any of these
Speaker 2: ideas on anyone. What works for you. I mean, if
Speaker 2: I had been told just cut the toenails off the
Speaker 2: off your dog and eat them, I would have. I
Speaker 2: would have. I wanted a baby so badly and nothing
Speaker 2: was working for me, and it created such depression in
Speaker 2: me and a sense of failure. But it shouldn't have.
Speaker 2: It shouldn't have.
Speaker 1: But I think also the one of the lessons is
Speaker 1: that you had no idea that you had a finite
Speaker 1: period of time. Yeah, and that might have changed some
Speaker 1: of your choices if you had been aware that perimenopause
Speaker 1: can start very early.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly right. Yeah, I mean I think I knew
Speaker 2: that fertility changes, it slows down at thirty five, but
Speaker 2: I didn't know that, Yeah, perimenopause can be And by
Speaker 2: the way, that word was not mentioned to me, which
Speaker 2: feels like a much softer word. I did know. I
Speaker 2: did remember that my mom had said she went into
Speaker 2: early menopause at forty five, but I was still a
Speaker 2: long way from that, right, And I also knew that
Speaker 2: there were women around me in Hollywood and other places.
Speaker 1: Sometimes, by the way, just parenthetically, I think that sort
Speaker 1: of does a disservice because I think a lot of
Speaker 1: times these women and I'm happy for them. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying anything negative. I'm thrilled they're having children. But sometimes
Speaker 1: I think people don't appreciate it's through IVF or you know,
Speaker 1: other means, And I think that we have to be
Speaker 1: more honest with young women about fertility declining as you
Speaker 1: get older, you know, just so they can make decisions
Speaker 1: if they want to freeze their eggs or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: But I think there was a period of time people
Speaker 1: had these unrealistic expectations that you could have babies well
Speaker 1: into your forties, and it's often not very easy. I
Speaker 1: know you talk about the Miscarriac rait for example.
Speaker 2: Yes, and also, by the way, I tried to freeze
Speaker 2: my eggs in my early thirties, right when my career
Speaker 2: started getting going, because I had a feeling that I
Speaker 2: was going to have to work because another story I
Speaker 2: mentioned in the book is because I came into it late,
Speaker 2: at least with my launching, I was told to work, work, work,
Speaker 2: because it'll all be dried up at forty, right, and
Speaker 2: no pun intended. So I had my foot on the
Speaker 2: gas and I thought, Okay, let me be productive or
Speaker 2: proactive and go and talk to a doctor about freezing
Speaker 2: my eggs. And again I was told, don't be silly,
Speaker 2: you're way too young, that's fine, and it's not a
Speaker 2: perfect science anyway, and I was sort of turned away.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and then I came back at thirty six,
Speaker 2: and it was it wasn't Those eggs weren't freezable. So
Speaker 2: I just had to find a way to find my
Speaker 2: last best possibility and there must have been just a
Speaker 2: couple more eggs in there.
Speaker 1: And happily you did have two children, did I did,
Speaker 1: And I know after a lot of blood, sweat and tears.
Speaker 1: So that was a wonderful thing. But I think the
Speaker 1: cautionary tale is really understand, right, understand your fertility, yeah,
Speaker 1: and be realistic, I think, and.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I wanted to be honest about it
Speaker 2: because to your point, yeah, there's a lot of these
Speaker 2: women that are having and whatever way you want to
Speaker 2: do it, that's fantastic, But being honest is helpful. I
Speaker 2: think to the community around you.
Speaker 1: You have found love again, which is so nice. You
Speaker 1: split with leav Shreiber, your partner and the father of
Speaker 1: your kids. But you know, I know initially, and I
Speaker 1: related to so much in your book, having lost my
Speaker 1: husband and having to start dating again in my forties.
Speaker 1: But at first you thought, I'm not interested in a
Speaker 1: romantic partner. I'm just going to focus on my children
Speaker 1: and my friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and my work and your work.
Speaker 1: That was a lot, yes, yeah, and of what changed
Speaker 1: your mind or did events just take over?
Speaker 2: Yes, I had my head down and wanted to just
Speaker 2: focus on all of that. And it was the last
Speaker 2: thing I was expecting. But a friendship created in the
Speaker 2: workplace and then we just yeah, I was very surprised
Speaker 2: by it. But we moved so so slowly, really, I mean,
Speaker 2: people didn't know we were dating for quite a while.
Speaker 1: Why don't we name the man in question to whom
Speaker 1: you're married.
Speaker 2: Now I'm married to him, it might be the world.
Speaker 2: I was working on a show with him, Billy Crudep
Speaker 2: and the show was called Gipsy. And yes, we formed
Speaker 2: a great working relationship which led to a great friendship
Speaker 2: and now a good, wonderful marriage.
Speaker 1: That's so, that's so great. And I know that you
Speaker 1: talk in the book about sort of different needs that
Speaker 1: you you have at different ages and different things that
Speaker 1: you may be looking for, which I think is also
Speaker 1: really helpful to people, because I think it's very difficult
Speaker 1: for women, I think, to jump back into the dating
Speaker 1: pool these days, and it's quite scary and different with
Speaker 1: you know, apps and all that stuff. And what advice
Speaker 1: would you give to women who would like to find
Speaker 1: a partner. I feel very lucky that I found a
Speaker 1: partner and remarried at fifty seven for crying out loud,
Speaker 1: and you know, we've got married for ten years. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I always say, just get out there and meet
Speaker 1: people and don't necessarily think of it as finding prince charming.
Speaker 1: But you know, basing a relationship, I think on friendship
Speaker 1: is really important. Companionship similar values. Is that what you
Speaker 1: basically say to your friends who say, does Billy have
Speaker 1: a brother? Because I get that a lot about the
Speaker 1: way is he single? He is? Is he good?
Speaker 2: He's great? Okay, So I think the thing about and
Speaker 2: I and I'm always reluctant to go to deep on
Speaker 2: my personal stuff with my relationship, but yeah, we have
Speaker 2: both been through some things, I mean, as you would
Speaker 2: have it in your late forties, which is when we met,
Speaker 2: and just you know, not willing to play games and
Speaker 2: you know, and being able to sit in your most
Speaker 2: authentic self and just share and communicate easily and or
Speaker 2: more easily.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good relationship, Yes, like being exactly who you are
Speaker 1: and not being afraid that that's going to scare someone off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I have a moment in the
Speaker 2: book where I talk about it rather awkward moments.
Speaker 1: That was so funny. As a farmer patch wearer, I
Speaker 1: could totally relate to that because at one point I
Speaker 1: was dating someone I know, sorry everyone, it was a phase.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I was thinking. He was nice
Speaker 1: and whatever, but seventeen years younger than I was, and
Speaker 1: I had my estrogen page and nothing really turns a
Speaker 1: guy on like an estuga bat, right, especially if they're
Speaker 1: seventeen years younger. But you do tell a hilarious story
Speaker 1: about you and Billy when you're frantically trying to scrub
Speaker 1: off your estraghip pat.
Speaker 2: And if anyone has won one, you know that they
Speaker 2: take quite a bit of sello grease to get it off.
Speaker 2: In fact, my doctor at the time said use car oil,
Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure I don't want to use that
Speaker 2: on my body.
Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure I don't have that handy in
Speaker 1: my bathrooms exactly my handbag.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I slipped away, not to get in a
Speaker 2: nice little sexy let neglige, but to scrape off my
Speaker 2: patch and leave a nasty.
Speaker 1: Because you were embarrassed that you had to pat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But again, being with someone who is uh, you know,
Speaker 2: understanding and not squeamish. He was not spooked at all,
Speaker 2: and I was met with compassion and curiosity rather than
Speaker 2: his own and his own admission, which I'll say for
Speaker 2: the reader, but it was it was something you know,
Speaker 2: See again, we gaslight ourselves. We think this is this
Speaker 2: is all going to be terrible, and we don't give
Speaker 2: a chance, you know, for we we just yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: if you are owning it and naming it and sharing
Speaker 2: it with your partner whoever you're with, every chance that
Speaker 2: they be they might be willing to be helpful, compassionate
Speaker 2: or yeah, just supportive in ways that we need. So
Speaker 2: it's a much better option, I think, to just lean into.
Speaker 1: It, definitely. And you know we're too old to fake it, right,
Speaker 1: And it was a.
Speaker 2: Great litmus test, like if you can't handle this, then yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: maybe we're not meant to be.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things you said about Billy
Speaker 1: and your friends reminded you of this at your bachelorette party,
Speaker 1: which I'm sorry you didn't invite me, Naomi, No, you right,
Speaker 1: you said, loving him is the kindest thing I've ever
Speaker 1: done for myself. What a lovely thing to say.
Speaker 2: I'll get a lump in my throat, Katie. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It was It was the truth, and it was something
Speaker 2: really special that I've let myself have and I hadn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't think I would be able to do that.
Speaker 2: I needed a lot of work on myself to get
Speaker 2: to that place.
Speaker 1: I remember this is sort of off topic too, but
Speaker 1: not necessarily. My late husband when he died, I wrote
Speaker 1: something about him and I said, he always made me
Speaker 1: feel safe, sane, and secure. And I think if you
Speaker 1: have a partner who does that, that's what I think
Speaker 1: we all should be looking for. And if you don't
Speaker 1: have a partner that does that, you should reconsider who
Speaker 1: makes you feel bad about yourself or makes you feel
Speaker 1: on edge or walking on eggshells, run for the hills.
Speaker 1: You know. I wanted to ask you a question that
Speaker 1: so many of my followers wanted me to talk about
Speaker 1: with you, which I think is indicative of the.
Speaker 2: Age of most of my followers.
Speaker 1: And that is pain during sex. And you know, this
Speaker 1: is something that I think people are really embarrassed to
Speaker 1: talk about, because I mean, who really wants to talk
Speaker 1: about vaginal dryness? But it's a real thing, and it
Speaker 1: can really hurt a relationship and stop people from being intimate.
Speaker 2: And when that happens, communication breaks down. Yeah, it can
Speaker 2: lead to all kinds of.
Speaker 1: But having said that, it's really you know, it's something
Speaker 1: that hasn't gotten a lot of medical attention, and there
Speaker 1: are ways that you know, basically I think we can
Speaker 1: explain to everyone. Most people probably know who are asking
Speaker 1: this question, is a lack of estrogen affects the tissues.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the rules of the vagina get thinner and more delicate.
Speaker 1: And drier, and so oftentimes sex is painful. And this
Speaker 1: is again where estrogen comes into play. You know, it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily it doesn't necessarily go into your body systemically.
Speaker 1: If you use vaginal estrogen. There's also a ring that's
Speaker 1: kind of like a diaphragm that you can use that's
Speaker 1: incredibly hard to get by the way, and expensive, yes,
Speaker 1: very expensive. But you know, but just to.
Speaker 2: Say that estrogen cream, vaginal estrogen cream is pretty safe.
Speaker 2: The doctors are pretty aligned on that right, pretty.
Speaker 1: Much everyone exactly, because it doesn't, as you say, go
Speaker 1: into your whole system. But this is something that I
Speaker 1: guess we should say women need to talk with their
Speaker 1: doctor about and there are things that they can do
Speaker 1: that will help.
Speaker 2: Yes, and also I will just if I can plug
Speaker 2: my own product. We have vaginal moisturizer called Vadge of
Speaker 2: Honor because the vagina must be honored and that's also
Speaker 2: incredibly helpful, and using lubricants that there should be no
Speaker 2: shame about having a nice pump right by your bed. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and as you say, I mean, I think women fear
Speaker 2: having sex because it's painful, and then they can't tell
Speaker 2: their partners because that's also humiliating, right.
Speaker 1: And makes it sort of like men, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm old. I don't have estrogen and it hurts.
Speaker 2: And if the conversation doesn't take place, you start making
Speaker 2: up stuff in your head. The person who's being told no,
Speaker 2: they can't, you know, they don't want to have sex
Speaker 2: with you, So it starts thinking, oh, they don't love
Speaker 2: me anymore, she's having affairs or you know, like.
Speaker 1: Or they're going to go somewhere else, They're going to
Speaker 1: cut somewhere exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also, by the way, affects your libido to your
Speaker 1: sex drive. Yes, what can women do about that.
Speaker 2: About their libido? Yeah, well they're I mean again, this
Speaker 2: people that say testosterone can help, and it's not FDA
Speaker 2: approved for women yet, but I take testosterone. I started
Speaker 2: taking testosterone a long time ago. I didn't like it.
Speaker 2: It had adverse effects on me, and I started feeling
Speaker 2: a bit like that and I stopped taking it. But
Speaker 2: I came back to it later on based on a
Speaker 2: conversation I had with a doctor multiple doctors actually, And
Speaker 2: now I like it, and I think it's all about
Speaker 2: trial and error, but it's not for everyone.
Speaker 1: And I think they've learned more in the interim from
Speaker 1: when you first started taking it.
Speaker 2: And now yes, exactly, and I feel a bit better
Speaker 2: about it, and I'm not regular about it, but every
Speaker 2: now and again I have a little droplet, and there's
Speaker 2: different delivery methods for testosterone. I have lots of friends
Speaker 2: who take it and lots of friends who are vehemently again,
Speaker 2: so again dealer's choice. You do the research and wik
Speaker 2: it out what's best for you. But it is said
Speaker 2: to be helpful for libido.
Speaker 1: You were an early adapter, Naomi, when it came to
Speaker 1: coming up with some products that are helpful, and you
Speaker 1: have your own company called Stripes. But I was curious
Speaker 1: because it seems like every time I turn around and
Speaker 1: every time I scroll Instagram, I'm assaulted. Actually I get
Speaker 1: more older stuff than that, like zaggy breasts and wrinkles.
Speaker 1: But there's so many products out there and so many companies,
Speaker 1: and I personally worry that some of them are not,
Speaker 1: like they don't have any medical evidence behind them, and
Speaker 1: that in some cases people are jumping on this menopause
Speaker 1: bandwagon and selling products that may or may not help.
Speaker 1: Do you worry about that too, And how do you
Speaker 1: ensure or that women who were buying your products are
Speaker 1: actually getting real help and real relief, because I'm sure
Speaker 1: you care about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do care about that, and I you know,
Speaker 2: our big thing was to help a woman feel seen
Speaker 2: because so many and heard and like we're really talking
Speaker 2: directly to her symptoms, which mostly it's about skin from
Speaker 2: scalp to vadge. We need hydration, We just need you know,
Speaker 2: ultra ultra rich products that are going to sink into
Speaker 2: our skin, into our scalp, into our hair, into our
Speaker 2: body and face and vaginas. And they are all clean ingredients,
Speaker 2: not harmful ingredients at all. And I just wanted a
Speaker 2: woman to feel like that she's really being spoken to
Speaker 2: and supported, where so many brands are telling you you
Speaker 2: can reverse a aging you know, we can get rid
Speaker 2: of your wrinkles, or we can you know, promise the world,
Speaker 2: and then here they have like a twenty five year
Speaker 2: old on their campaign ads or whatever. And that's not
Speaker 2: what it feels good for a woman of my age.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be promised to the world, and
Speaker 2: I don't want to look like a twenty eight year
Speaker 2: old anymore or a twenty five year old. I want
Speaker 2: to be just me, but as hydrated as possible and
Speaker 2: spoken to authentically.
Speaker 1: I know that you write about being worried, and you
Speaker 1: mentioned in our conversation that you know, being all washed
Speaker 1: up by the time you're forty, and that was common
Speaker 1: sort of knowledge in Hollywood, or at least that was
Speaker 1: what women were told or thought that at a certain
Speaker 1: age they become unfuckable, right, that was the charming expression
Speaker 1: that you even mentioned in your book. And I'm curious
Speaker 1: if you think things are changing in Hollywood. I was
Speaker 1: very heartened to see a lot of older actresses being
Speaker 1: celebrated at the Golden Globes.
Speaker 2: Yes this year. Look at all of the Oscar nominees
Speaker 2: and yeah, Golden Globe nominees. There's a litany of women
Speaker 2: in their fifties driving stories, telling brilliant stories, of sexual stories, stories.
Speaker 1: About baby your Fellow be.
Speaker 2: A more sexual movie, right right, We've all enjoyed that one.
Speaker 2: Thanks Nick.
Speaker 1: I'll never look at a glass of milk the same
Speaker 1: way again.
Speaker 2: But he needs to do it an email can for
Speaker 2: sure that will be funny.
Speaker 1: Got milk?
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's heartening things have changed. We're seeing
Speaker 2: it take place in real time, and I think it's
Speaker 2: it's a barrage of a lot of things that have
Speaker 2: converged all at once, and probably mostly driven by the
Speaker 2: fact that we're living longer.
Speaker 1: Right, but we're not living better, which always bums me out.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think your book is so important,
Speaker 1: because we are living longer but not in a healthy way,
Speaker 1: and we have to start thinking about health span instead
Speaker 1: of lifespan, which I think your book is going to
Speaker 1: be so helpful about. I wondered if you could read
Speaker 1: this paragraph you wrote, Oh God, reading aloud is my
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations for women in the public.
Speaker 2: But grosses, Katie, Oh do you want mine?
Speaker 1: Well? They are really strong, they're two point five.
Speaker 2: I'm a strong one too. Oh that's good, Okay, good
Speaker 2: this bit.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: In Feud Campodi versus the Swans, I got to play
Speaker 2: the age range of forty to sixty three. I am
Speaker 2: my age, and my face represents that, and what I
Speaker 2: bring to a story or a character represents that too.
Speaker 2: I experienced grief, I've experienced loss. I've experienced a major breakup,
Speaker 2: and I felt so much shame about having a broken family.
Speaker 2: Even knowing that my ex and I are both in
Speaker 2: a happy, healthier relationship and our kids love their new
Speaker 2: family members, I still feel a sense of failure sometimes.
Speaker 2: And so that's the kind of woman. I'm going to play,
Speaker 2: one who's made sacrifices and hard decisions. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to be playing someone who's falling in love for the
Speaker 2: first time. So why shouldn't I just embrace this and
Speaker 2: own it. It's fair to say I'm all over the
Speaker 2: place on this issue, sometimes for cosmetic interventions and sometimes against.
Speaker 2: I just hope society can get to a place where
Speaker 2: it can handle a woman who looks her age. I'm
Speaker 2: counting on people to adjust their tolerance rather than my
Speaker 2: having to adjust my jows.
Speaker 1: I thought that was such a great paragraph. You know,
Speaker 1: and you want to play a woman who has lived, yeah,
Speaker 1: and experienced all these things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for now. But I also follow the ideology that
Speaker 2: one day I might change my mind, So let me
Speaker 2: have that sure, and I but yes, this is the
Speaker 2: face I live in. And I wanted to reflect not
Speaker 2: just the story of the character I'm playing, but the
Speaker 2: audience's story, and for that to be reflecting what they
Speaker 2: are going through, and that needs to be as truthful
Speaker 2: as possible.
Speaker 1: You talked about experiencing loss, and I know recently you
Speaker 1: lost a very close friend in David Lynch, who really
Speaker 1: I think recognized in you, Naomi, something that you felt
Speaker 1: a lot of people were overlooking. On Instagram, you wrote,
Speaker 1: the world will not be the same without him. His
Speaker 1: creative mentorship was truly powerful. He put me on the
Speaker 1: map the world I've been trying to break into for
Speaker 1: ten plus years, flunking audition and left and right. Finally
Speaker 1: I sat in front of a curious man, beaming with light,
Speaker 1: speaking words from another era, making me laugh and feel
Speaker 1: at ease. How did it even see me? When I
Speaker 1: was so well hidden and I'd even lost sight of myself.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just his art that impacted me. His wisdom,
Speaker 1: humor and love gave me a special sense of belief
Speaker 1: in myself I'd never accessed before. What a beautiful thing
Speaker 1: to say about someone.
Speaker 2: He really really was that special. And again, I mean
Speaker 2: I walked into that room and I just felt this
Speaker 2: beaming energy that put me at ease. And he wanted
Speaker 2: to connect and I hadn't had that. I would had
Speaker 2: been flunking all those auditions for ten years and started
Speaker 2: to put barriers out and was basically what my agent
Speaker 2: said was unhirable because I was walking into the room
Speaker 2: with all of this shut down energy. I was, you know,
Speaker 2: making people feel uncomfortable with that intensity. I was told
Speaker 2: I was not funny, not sexy, too intense, to this,
Speaker 2: to that list goes on, and I was just keen
Speaker 2: to get out of their way. I would get in
Speaker 2: the room and be like, I just want the job.
Speaker 2: You're not gonna give it to me, Okay, I'll just
Speaker 2: get out of your way. It was really uncomfortable and
Speaker 2: painful and humiliating, and I was in a loop. And
Speaker 2: he somehow connected with me despite what I was, you know,
Speaker 2: bringing in and allowed me to just release all of
Speaker 2: those barriers, and he kept me in the room for
Speaker 2: forty five minutes and just got me talking. And from
Speaker 2: that day my life changed. I don't think I would
Speaker 2: still be living in America. If it wasn't for him,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have American children. I would have thrown the
Speaker 2: towel in. You know. I was at that point where
Speaker 2: I couldn't have tolerated it any longer if I didn't
Speaker 2: have a breakthrough. And not only did he give me
Speaker 2: a role of a.
Speaker 1: Lifetime in Mulholland.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there were two I've had two characters
Speaker 2: to play that were diametrically opposite, and sometimes you don't
Speaker 2: get those kind of roles in one whole career, much
Speaker 2: less a movie. So it was just like this unbelievable
Speaker 2: showcase for every I mean obviously every director saw that
Speaker 2: film because David Lynch, his body of work comes with,
Speaker 2: you know, extraordinary interest.
Speaker 1: And he's so he was so courageous, right and how
Speaker 1: he did things and why he did things.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that film stands up today. I was just
Speaker 2: on his birthday on January twentieth, which he didn't live
Speaker 2: to see. We created a collective meditation around the world
Speaker 2: as well as he's At the IFC, they played his
Speaker 2: movie muholland drive our movie, and we went and introduced
Speaker 2: the film myself and Justin threw and yeah, that film
Speaker 2: does live on and it is one that will continue
Speaker 2: to be talked about because it was so unique. And
Speaker 2: that's all of his films. He doesn't explain them for
Speaker 2: people to say, this is the formula and I get
Speaker 2: it right away. He wants you to take it away
Speaker 2: and make it your own version and of you know, whatever,
Speaker 2: however you understand it.
Speaker 1: I watched a wonderful clip of you doing crying at
Speaker 1: a table and then turning away, and then everyone on
Speaker 1: the set burst into applause. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2: I do? I do. He created an environment where not
Speaker 2: only did you feel safe, but unbelievably creatively charged and
Speaker 2: at your best. He accessed all the best parts of everyone.
Speaker 2: And so that's the loss that I'm experiencing it, But
Speaker 2: I'm comforted by the joy. You know, if you've spent
Speaker 2: any time reading articles about him over the last week,
Speaker 2: there's so much joy that people have experienced through connection
Speaker 2: with whether it's his film or him personally, And people
Speaker 2: are so expressive about that and that is the comfort
Speaker 2: and in his loss. But I wish there were more
Speaker 2: like him. I wish there were more people like him,
Speaker 2: because he was, yeah, one of a kind, a real teacher.
Speaker 1: When we lose people like that, I think we think
Speaker 1: about the people they were and how we could be
Speaker 1: more like them. Yes, and I wonder if you have
Speaker 1: been thinking about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly his presence, his ability to be so present
Speaker 2: and so himself unapologetically. You know, there's another great video
Speaker 2: there where he gets annoyed by someone telling them him
Speaker 2: that he's taking too much time in a certain shot
Speaker 2: and he's like, screwed, time, don't tell me about time.
Speaker 2: And so his anger is justified because he doesn't want
Speaker 2: to obey the rules. He wants to do it his way.
Speaker 2: And there's something just so wonderfully pure about that he's
Speaker 2: on He's doing making art on his own terms, and
Speaker 2: that's admirable.
Speaker 1: I feel like you are sort of at a similar
Speaker 1: place in your life. You know, you're living your life
Speaker 1: on your own terms, your authentic self. You're sharing very
Speaker 1: personal things I think in service of the greater good
Speaker 1: to help other women. I feel like you're you must
Speaker 1: think about that, Naomi, like this is a really good
Speaker 1: place to be. I'm happy, and I'm fulfilled, and I
Speaker 1: have purpose and I'm doing.
Speaker 2: I was going to say that it has given me
Speaker 2: a sense of purpose and at this point in my
Speaker 2: life that I didn't know I find and through owning
Speaker 2: my story, I've found the most remarkable community of women
Speaker 2: as well as doctors and people who want to share
Speaker 2: their stories. And it's been I feel very bolstered by
Speaker 2: that community and very empowered about sharing and bringing people
Speaker 2: into the same community as And yeah, it should be
Speaker 2: a time to thrive. It should be. And I've a
Speaker 2: lot of great things have happened for me in my
Speaker 2: fifties that I'm really proud of. And it's to do
Speaker 2: with the fact that I have done a lot of
Speaker 2: work on myself and I'm much more conscious and in
Speaker 2: my mind and in my body, and I hope that
Speaker 2: for others too.
Speaker 1: I thought it was funny that people DM you all
Speaker 1: the time, all the other actors and actresses. I know
Speaker 1: we're supposed to say actors, but I still, yes, in
Speaker 1: this case, we can say actresses. Questions about menopause, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm often a clearing house for questions about cancer, you know,
Speaker 1: I get so many people asking me about that. But
Speaker 1: it must be funny. You have a constant stream of
Speaker 1: dms with people asking you questions about menopause.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a funny moment where random people that
Speaker 2: I've sort of met but not I don't know necessarily,
Speaker 2: and someone's linked us up. And I think it's just
Speaker 2: that confession that need to Oh God, I'm here, what
Speaker 2: do I do? And you know, whether it's a need
Speaker 2: for just an ear or a shoulder, I'm there for them.
Speaker 2: You're the metopause guru, right who knew that would be
Speaker 2: my future? Or if it was, it's you know, I
Speaker 2: need a doctor. I asked what city they're in. If
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'll find a way through the doctors.
Speaker 2: I know there's a circuit we all communicate with each other.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I kind of love that. I love that
Speaker 2: I'm one of their first calls.
Speaker 1: Well, the book is called Dare I say it everything
Speaker 1: I wish i'd known about menopause. I just admire you
Speaker 1: so much. I love your work and I'm so happy
Speaker 1: you wrote this book because I think it's going to
Speaker 1: help so many women.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Katie.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. Executive producers are Me,
Speaker 1: Katie Couric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
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