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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Today we're diving into a topic that has

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Speaker 1: really only started to get the attention it deserves, menopause.

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Speaker 1: My guest is someone who's breaking the silence and changing

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Speaker 1: the conversation around it, the incredible Naomi Watts. You know

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Speaker 1: her as an award winning actress, but today she's here

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Speaker 1: as an author, sharing her deeply personal journey in her

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Speaker 1: incredibly candid, informative, and yes funny book Wait Till You

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Speaker 1: Hear about the night she was frantically trying to scrub

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Speaker 1: off her estrogen patch before getting to it, something I

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Speaker 1: could totally relate to. By the way, the book is

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Speaker 1: aptly called Dare I say it? Everything I wish I'd

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Speaker 1: known about menopause, because Naomi definitely goes there. She says

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Speaker 1: she wanted her book to feel like a cozy chat

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Speaker 1: with a girlfriend, despite the serious subject. She discovered she

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Speaker 1: was on the precipice of menopause at just thirty six,

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Speaker 1: the same time she wanted to start a family. She

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Speaker 1: felt devastated and alone, and was shocked by a sense

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Speaker 1: that doctors and even family members thought she should just

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Speaker 1: suffer through it. Naomi is now in a mission to educate, embrace,

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Speaker 1: and empower women, so their journey might be a little smoother.

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Speaker 1: I really had a good time talking to her. Here's

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Naomi Watts. Naomi, I had so much

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Speaker 1: fun reading your book. I felt like you and I

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Speaker 1: were spending a lot of time together, and I learned

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Speaker 1: a lot about you, a.

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Speaker 2: Lot, probably too much. No, Actually, I.

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Speaker 1: Really appreciated your candor and the fact that you were

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Speaker 1: so open, and also that you used so many experts

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Speaker 1: and gave so much valuable information. And this is something

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Speaker 1: I know that you've been thinking about for some time time.

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Speaker 1: But why did you decide? Damn it, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: write this book and I'm just going to lay it

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Speaker 1: out there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'd been thinking about it, as many of us.

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Speaker 2: When we have ideas that we sit on them, we

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Speaker 2: think on them, we percolate on them, we fear them.

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Speaker 2: So it takes a process to get to that point

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Speaker 2: where you're ready. If you read the book, then you

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Speaker 2: will see that I am very I got there very

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Speaker 2: early and was very much alone and feeling scared and

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Speaker 2: didn't have a community. I was thirty six when I

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Speaker 2: was told I was about to go into menopause right

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Speaker 2: at the prespoe of wanting to start a family. So

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Speaker 2: that collision of two things creating a huge amount of fear,

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Speaker 2: just left me undone, frankly, and I needed a support

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Speaker 2: system and didn't have it. And I wished there was

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Speaker 2: a book that was a little bit more, you know,

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Speaker 2: where I could find support, I could find expert advice

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Speaker 2: and some fun along the way, as it isn't or

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Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be so doom and gloom, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I wanted to create a book that had not

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Speaker 2: just my story, but it was infused with other women's

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Speaker 2: stories with some humor, pain points their distress, my distress, despair,

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Speaker 2: as well as the facts as we know them of

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Speaker 2: the current place, speaking to fantastic doctors. Because there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of books out there now which are incredibly helpful,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes they can be too dense, you know, with

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Speaker 2: all just the facts, and so I wanted it to

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Speaker 2: feel like a cozy chat with my girlfriend, so that

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Speaker 2: I could say, hey, this is what worked for me,

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Speaker 2: this is what was awful, this was what was great,

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Speaker 2: this is what I've learned along the way, and I

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Speaker 2: can back it up up with this conversation with that

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Speaker 2: doctor and that doctor, and.

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Speaker 1: I think it really was effective because it was so

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Speaker 1: personal and yet also, as I mentioned, really informational, and

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Speaker 1: I think some of the struggles to understand women's bodies

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Speaker 1: is emblematic of a larger issue in the medical establishment.

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Speaker 1: In your intro, you quote doctor Cheryl Malone, a DC

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Speaker 1: based obgyn who I happen to know and we use

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Speaker 1: her in our newsletter frequently. She's wonderful and she's the

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Speaker 1: chief medical officer at Alloy Women's Health. She's one of

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Speaker 1: the leading menopause practitioners in the country. And you quote

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Speaker 1: her saying, I think one of the things that we

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Speaker 1: have got to understand, and study after study has substantiated this,

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Speaker 1: is that we have really normalized suffering as a part

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Speaker 1: of womanhood. We suffer from cramps, we suffer in childbirth,

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Speaker 1: we suffer from pre menstrual syndrome. These things that exclusively

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Speaker 1: affect women have been understudied across the board because the

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Speaker 1: expectation is that if women suffer, it is not deemed

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Speaker 1: worthy of redress. Women exaggerate, were hysterical, it's all in

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Speaker 1: your head. This unfortunate perception is still all too common

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Speaker 1: in medicine today. Women still feel they're not heard, they're

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Speaker 1: not seen, and they're not believed. And that's the problem there.

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Speaker 2: You have it, I mean, yeah, we were told to

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Speaker 2: suffer through it. When I asked my mom why she

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Speaker 2: didn't tell me more about menopause, she said, I didn't

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Speaker 2: have these conversations with you because I never had them

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Speaker 2: with my mother, as if to say there was some

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Speaker 2: code of silence that was agreed upon generation by generation,

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Speaker 2: which is absurd. Why should we suck it up and suffer?

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Speaker 2: There's absolutely no reason when treatment is available, and the

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Speaker 2: same thing goes for I mean, I remember having my

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Speaker 2: first baby. I thought, no, I mustn't have an epidural.

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Speaker 2: I must suffer through this. Be a natural birth woman,

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Speaker 2: you know, And that's absurd. If you're feeling extreme pain,

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Speaker 2: why should you just because other women have said that's important,

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Speaker 2: or society has said you must be natural. If you

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Speaker 2: cannot do it, you should not feel bad about that.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's what doctor Charon Malone is speaking to.

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Speaker 2: We just said, okay, we should.

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Speaker 1: Suffer, and not only women have they traditionally not been

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Speaker 1: listened to. You know, the term hysterical, But the amount

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Speaker 1: of money spent on research is just absurd when you

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Speaker 1: compare male illnesses with women. Women for so long have

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Speaker 1: been just viewed as small men.

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Speaker 2: Until nineteen ninety three that we were even used in

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Speaker 2: clinical trials.

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Speaker 1: Which is insane. And I did a podcast with Susan Dominus,

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Speaker 1: a New York Times writer, in April twenty twenty three. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that was one of the most shame changing articles. It

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Speaker 1: was a cover story in the New York Times magazine

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Speaker 1: and it was really about the history of hormone replacement

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Speaker 1: therapy in Naomi. I lived through this because I was

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Speaker 1: covering that study to some degree, and it got completely

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Speaker 1: botched in the messaging. And it's probably a little too

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Speaker 1: complicated for us to go really go deep into it.

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Speaker 1: But let's just kind of give a refresher on what

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Speaker 1: happened to the Women's Health Initiative and why it was stopped.

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Speaker 1: And what I think about, Naomi is all those lost

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Speaker 1: years of research that could have helped develop certain therapies

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Speaker 1: for women, therapies that people like I could take, you know,

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Speaker 1: as somebody who has hormone receptor positive breast cancer but

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Speaker 1: was on the patch for many years loved it. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you how much I miss estrogen, but it

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Speaker 1: was really misconstruction and mishandled by the NIH. Can we

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Speaker 1: kind of give a brief premer on it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So the study was stopped in two thousand and

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Speaker 2: two because they found that they thought there was a

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Speaker 2: discovery of breast cancer that was caused by HRT. They

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Speaker 2: created the study to see if heart disease was actually

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Speaker 2: going to be diminished.

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Speaker 1: For women postman apostle women, primarily because they thought it

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Speaker 1: would be efficacious in reducing heart disease. And they showed

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Speaker 1: a very very very slight risk of breast cancer, and

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Speaker 1: they kind of gave this blanket statement or it was misconstrued,

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Speaker 1: and then it was in the media, got applified by

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Speaker 1: the media, basically scaring everyone away from hormone replacement.

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Speaker 2: And not just women who were taking it, doctors who

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Speaker 2: were subscribing it. Everyone literally flushed their horme bones down

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Speaker 2: the toilet and the media went berserk, and then doctors

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Speaker 2: to this day still hold on to that that discovery

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Speaker 2: that was unfounded that has now been pedled back on.

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Speaker 2: But people are just left with this enormous.

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Speaker 1: Fear right and there are I mean, in fairness, there

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Speaker 1: are some women who probably shouldn't take estuary.

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Speaker 2: Of course, it's and that's what I go in.

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Speaker 1: Therapy, right, who have a history of breast cancer, who

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Speaker 1: have had breast cancer, et cetera. But it just got

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Speaker 1: completely distorted in such a way that it not only

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Speaker 1: scared women, but it kind of stopped the research too.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, and then a whole generation of women went

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Speaker 2: untreated virtually. So what I wanted to do is in

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Speaker 2: the book is really go deep into that with doctors research.

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Speaker 2: And again I am not here on the soapbox saying

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Speaker 2: take HRT. What is safe for you? What is your

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Speaker 2: choice is up to you. But I encourage every woman

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Speaker 2: to make sure they ask their doctor for the full

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Speaker 2: spectrum of options, based on their medical history, based on

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Speaker 2: their symptoms, based on the risk benefit. And I don't

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Speaker 2: want them to have a doctor be in a situation

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Speaker 2: where the doctor is just plain gatekeeping, right, And I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying they shouldn't be kept from taking these drugs.

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Speaker 2: It's just the conversation, right, Everyone should be allowed to

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Speaker 2: have that conversation.

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Speaker 1: One thing that you point out, which I think is

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Speaker 1: so important, which I mentioned, Naomi, is that estrogen is

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Speaker 1: this wonder hormone. I mean, it is really responsible for

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Speaker 1: I think in many ways, and you can correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, but brain health, sexual health, skin health.

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Speaker 1: You know, I started doing HRT when I was anchoring

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Speaker 1: the CBS Evening News because I thought, I do not

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Speaker 1: want to have like the brain a senior moment when

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Speaker 1: I don't have it. By the way, when like somebody's

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Speaker 1: telling me the latest economic report and I'd be like, wait,

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Speaker 1: what on live television. I also did it because of bones,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in a vain way, I wanted my

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Speaker 1: skin to be good. And I think that people don't

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Speaker 1: appreciate what a key role estrogen plays because it also

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Speaker 1: is a hormone responsible for you feeling good. I sort

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Speaker 1: of got depressed when I went through menopause, and I

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Speaker 1: think it was because my estrogen was decreasing.

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Speaker 2: So there's still so much debate around it about the

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Speaker 2: benefits of estrogen. You know. It's it's so interesting because

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Speaker 2: we had that discovery and then the media and then

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Speaker 2: that's been pedaled back and doctors are getting riled up

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Speaker 2: about it, and then women are saying, yes, I've got

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Speaker 2: to have estrogen, And now there's been another you know

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Speaker 2: curve that has where doctors are saying, well, the benefits

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Speaker 2: are not what everyone is saying on social media.

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Speaker 1: Oh really. Well, I also think even thet.

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Speaker 2: I wrote the book, really you know, still debate to

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Speaker 2: this day.

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Speaker 1: But I also think a lot of people who aren't

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Speaker 1: experts are offering opinions on social media.

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Speaker 2: That's true. So you have to have to be really careful,

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Speaker 2: and you have to really do the research on your

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Speaker 2: own based on your medical history.

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Speaker 1: And find a doctor who has time to talk to you,

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Speaker 1: the one you trust.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel for these doctors who you know,

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Speaker 2: they have their eight to ten minute session slots and

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Speaker 2: you know, three minutes of those you're getting undressed. And

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Speaker 2: you know, God forbid if you burst into tears because

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Speaker 2: you've been dealing with you know, struggles in your life as.

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Speaker 1: You tell these very personal stories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's it's it's really something to consider carefully

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Speaker 2: and with deep, deep research. But for me, I believe

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Speaker 2: my quality of life has improved. It's safe.

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Speaker 1: For me.

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Speaker 2: I've trusted my doctors, I do my blood work, and

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Speaker 2: I'm all about bone health. For me, I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: it is keeping my bone strong.

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Speaker 1: And you're blonde and your petite, so you're at risk

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Speaker 1: for osteoporosis.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's in my family. So I have to

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Speaker 2: make sure that I you know, and a lot of that.

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Speaker 2: I have to protect my bones with exercise.

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Speaker 1: Right, I was going to say, come lift some weights

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Speaker 1: with I've just started.

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Speaker 2: I weigh that all the time as much as I can.

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Speaker 2: It's the most boring kind of workout.

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Speaker 1: But it is put on some good music.

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Speaker 2: It can be music and have an entertaining you know,

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Speaker 2: gym buddy, Yeah, you know so. I mean I sometimes

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Speaker 2: do it at home with videos. I sometimes go to

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Speaker 2: the gym, but yeah, it's very important.

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Speaker 1: It's hard for me just in the category is when

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Speaker 1: I was diagnosed with hormone receptor positive breast cancer. Unfortunately

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Speaker 1: it was early. Not only did they take me off

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Speaker 1: estrogen my patch, I missed my patch, but they also

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Speaker 1: put me on aromatase inhibitors, which basically get rid of

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Speaker 1: any sintella of estrogen I might have coursing through my veins.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of hard because now I have to

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Speaker 1: really focus on other ways to compensate for a lack

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Speaker 1: of estrogen through exercise and supplements ET cetera.

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Speaker 2: And how do you feel.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm making do I generally feel

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Speaker 1: pretty well? I take care of myself and.

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Speaker 2: Night sweats or any of that still or.

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Speaker 1: Not too much. I had night sweats, I never had

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Speaker 1: hot flashes. They sound miserable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I had, yeah, the worst night sweats And sometimes

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Speaker 2: still one might sneak up on me and a few

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Speaker 2: hot flashes. But yeah, the night sweats can lead. You know,

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Speaker 2: obviously a disturbed sleep can lead to all kinds of things, depression, anxiety,

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Speaker 2: that memory blip thing. And so many women talk about

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Speaker 2: how they can be in a meeting with filled with

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Speaker 2: men and talking and then suddenly they lose a word

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Speaker 2: and that causes real anxiety and then you lose your

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Speaker 2: focus in the meeting and it can be very you know,

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Speaker 2: you can just flood with shame, right and not be

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Speaker 2: able to explain it to your colleagues. Like so you know,

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Speaker 2: again going back to why I wrote the book was

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Speaker 2: to create not just education, but community. And you know,

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Speaker 2: we need.

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Speaker 1: To support, right and like if that happens, and.

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Speaker 2: In every place, not just at home or in our friendships,

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Speaker 2: our relationship, but in the workplace as well. This is

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Speaker 2: a very normal part of life, and we should have

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Speaker 2: support and compassion and empathy, and like we do when

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Speaker 2: our kids are going through puberty, which is a different

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Speaker 2: kind of hormonal disruption, but it's it's real, and you know,

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Speaker 2: we have empathy when a teenager slams the door in

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Speaker 2: our face, we understand where it's coming from. But when

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Speaker 2: a woman is going through menopause and her hormones are

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Speaker 2: plummeting and she's having angst or you know, my kids

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Speaker 2: get furious with me if I you know, forget what

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Speaker 2: I'm saying, or mom just focus, you know, and I

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Speaker 2: feel bad, but there's no I mean, I try to

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Speaker 2: make them understand it, but they haven't been there, have they.

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Speaker 2: So so yeah.

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Speaker 1: The community is important and also demanding more of our

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Speaker 1: healthcare system and the medical establishment that they need to

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Speaker 1: pay attention to this. If you want to get smarter

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Speaker 1: every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating

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Speaker 1: takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up

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Speaker 1: for our daily newsletter, wake Up Call by going to

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Speaker 1: Katiecuric dot com. One of the things I thought was

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Speaker 1: so important that you talk about in the book, Naomi,

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Speaker 1: is there's a whole panoply of symptoms that accompany both

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Speaker 1: perimenopause and menopause, and I think doctors often don't connect

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Speaker 1: the dots. For example, you talked about someone in the

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Speaker 1: book who had heart issues and she was afraid to drive,

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Speaker 1: and she had gone to the cardiologist. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: that story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that came from doctor Kelly Casperson, she was a

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Speaker 2: doctor as well. Yeah, and she was having hot palpitations,

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Speaker 2: which is a very common symptom. Again, I had that

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Speaker 2: too and didn't know, but I also had been diagnosed

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Speaker 2: with a heart murmur very long ago. But this woman

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Speaker 2: was literally at the point where she had to go

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Speaker 2: and get an EKG and they said, no, you're fine.

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Speaker 2: And then the doctor said, well, how about we test

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Speaker 2: your doctor her friend or doctor, doctor Keli Caspusen said

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Speaker 2: let's test your hormones, let's test your bloods, and sure enough,

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Speaker 2: she was in menopause. And she said, I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: that's what it is. And this is a woman who

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Speaker 2: was about to give up.

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Speaker 1: Driving, right because she was afraid that she would yeah,

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Speaker 1: some hard heart attack, yeah, driving her kids or something.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's also so illustrative of the fact

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Speaker 1: that even doctors don't study this. They spend very little

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Speaker 1: time in medical school studying it. So when these symptoms

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Speaker 1: are presented to medical professionals, they often.

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Speaker 2: Connecting the dots. I mean every time I do a movie,

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Speaker 2: I have to fill out a questionnaire, a medical questionnaire,

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Speaker 2: and it's like a hundred questions. I was ticking night

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Speaker 2: sweats for a good eight years and no one said, oh,

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Speaker 2: that could be you know, they were I even say

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Speaker 2: it in the book. There's one moment where they think

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Speaker 2: it could be TB tuberculosis because that's a symptom. No

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Speaker 2: one signaled it as that, and I was worried. I

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Speaker 2: was like, what about my night sweat? Oh, that's probably analogy.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you know I have some food or that extra

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Speaker 2: glass of wine or you know, again like oh it's

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Speaker 2: something I did. My fault, my fault, you know. And

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Speaker 2: skin was another big problem for me as an actor,

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Speaker 2: working under hot lights, lots of makeup day and day.

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Speaker 1: Out, because you have extremely dry skin. I have very

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Speaker 1: dry skin, irristraated. Do you get eczema?

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Speaker 2: I get roseatia? I used to and yeah, I was

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Speaker 2: really like having these moments where I was scratching off

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Speaker 2: my skin. It was red irritated. I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: was happening. I went to the dermatologist multiple times, got

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Speaker 2: ointment that was soothing for a minute, but then it

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Speaker 2: would recur. And I had no idea that that was

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Speaker 2: related to menophause, and the doctors neither.

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Speaker 1: Your story, Naomi, was particularly traumatic because, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: you learned you were going through menopause at thirty six,

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Speaker 1: and it coincided with you trying to have a family.

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Speaker 1: So that was sort of a double whammy for you,

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Speaker 1: wasn't It talked about that period of your life and

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Speaker 1: what you experience when you learn that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was shocking and lonely and scary, and I

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Speaker 2: knew I really wanted to be a mother, and I

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Speaker 2: went into all kinds of panic. I it wasn't a

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Speaker 2: candidate for IVF. I tried clonid, I tried IUIS.

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Speaker 1: I felt so for you as you were talking about

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Speaker 1: this journey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was a lot of shame that came

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Speaker 2: up with it, like if I didn't have my fertility,

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Speaker 2: I didn't have my worth or something, which is absurd.

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Speaker 2: There are lots of ways to become a mother, but

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Speaker 2: I just was self loathing, flagellating all of it. I

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Speaker 2: felt terrible about myself and I felt like it was

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Speaker 2: me that had caused it. I had ruined my body.

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Speaker 2: It was really terrible. I eventually found this fantastic book

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Speaker 2: because I had what's called a high FSH level follicle

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Speaker 2: stimulating hormone, and this book became my savior. Again. Why

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Speaker 2: I wanted a book, you know, because I would read

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Speaker 2: that book secretly. I've tied that book.

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Speaker 1: What was it called again?

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Speaker 2: It was called Inconceivable by Julia Indichova, and she also

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Speaker 2: had a high f SH level and she went through

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Speaker 2: different ways of how to create a lower level. And

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, whether it was the book, I also

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Speaker 2: was trying Chinese herbs. I went to China. There's a

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Speaker 2: funny story.

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Speaker 1: With the translator and the doctor and.

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Speaker 2: It happened to be filming there and I found my

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Speaker 2: way to a herbalist. So, you know, I don't ever

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Speaker 2: want to presume to, you know, push any of these

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Speaker 2: ideas on anyone. What works for you. I mean, if

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Speaker 2: I had been told just cut the toenails off the

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Speaker 2: off your dog and eat them, I would have. I

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Speaker 2: would have. I wanted a baby so badly and nothing

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Speaker 2: was working for me, and it created such depression in

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Speaker 2: me and a sense of failure. But it shouldn't have.

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Speaker 2: It shouldn't have.

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Speaker 1: But I think also the one of the lessons is

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Speaker 1: that you had no idea that you had a finite

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Speaker 1: period of time. Yeah, and that might have changed some

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Speaker 1: of your choices if you had been aware that perimenopause

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Speaker 1: can start very early.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly right. Yeah, I mean I think I knew

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Speaker 2: that fertility changes, it slows down at thirty five, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that, Yeah, perimenopause can be And by

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Speaker 2: the way, that word was not mentioned to me, which

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Speaker 2: feels like a much softer word. I did know. I

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Speaker 2: did remember that my mom had said she went into

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Speaker 2: early menopause at forty five, but I was still a

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Speaker 2: long way from that, right, And I also knew that

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Speaker 2: there were women around me in Hollywood and other places.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes, by the way, just parenthetically, I think that sort

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Speaker 1: of does a disservice because I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: times these women and I'm happy for them. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying anything negative. I'm thrilled they're having children. But sometimes

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Speaker 1: I think people don't appreciate it's through IVF or you know,

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Speaker 1: other means, And I think that we have to be

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Speaker 1: more honest with young women about fertility declining as you

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Speaker 1: get older, you know, just so they can make decisions

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Speaker 1: if they want to freeze their eggs or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: But I think there was a period of time people

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Speaker 1: had these unrealistic expectations that you could have babies well

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Speaker 1: into your forties, and it's often not very easy. I

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Speaker 1: know you talk about the Miscarriac rait for example.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and also, by the way, I tried to freeze

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Speaker 2: my eggs in my early thirties, right when my career

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00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 2: started getting going, because I had a feeling that I

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Speaker 2: was going to have to work because another story I

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Speaker 2: mentioned in the book is because I came into it late,

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Speaker 2: at least with my launching, I was told to work, work, work,

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Speaker 2: because it'll all be dried up at forty, right, and

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Speaker 2: no pun intended. So I had my foot on the

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Speaker 2: gas and I thought, Okay, let me be productive or

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Speaker 2: proactive and go and talk to a doctor about freezing

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Speaker 2: my eggs. And again I was told, don't be silly,

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Speaker 2: you're way too young, that's fine, and it's not a

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Speaker 2: perfect science anyway, and I was sort of turned away.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, and then I came back at thirty six,

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Speaker 2: and it was it wasn't Those eggs weren't freezable. So

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Speaker 2: I just had to find a way to find my

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Speaker 2: last best possibility and there must have been just a

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Speaker 2: couple more eggs in there.

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Speaker 1: And happily you did have two children, did I did,

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Speaker 1: And I know after a lot of blood, sweat and tears.

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Speaker 1: So that was a wonderful thing. But I think the

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Speaker 1: cautionary tale is really understand, right, understand your fertility, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and be realistic, I think, and.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I wanted to be honest about it

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Speaker 2: because to your point, yeah, there's a lot of these

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Speaker 2: women that are having and whatever way you want to

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Speaker 2: do it, that's fantastic, But being honest is helpful. I

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Speaker 2: think to the community around you.

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Speaker 1: You have found love again, which is so nice. You

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Speaker 1: split with leav Shreiber, your partner and the father of

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Speaker 1: your kids. But you know, I know initially, and I

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Speaker 1: related to so much in your book, having lost my

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Speaker 1: husband and having to start dating again in my forties.

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Speaker 1: But at first you thought, I'm not interested in a

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Speaker 1: romantic partner. I'm just going to focus on my children

434
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: and my friends.

435
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and my work and your work.

436
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: That was a lot, yes, yeah, and of what changed

437
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: your mind or did events just take over?

438
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I had my head down and wanted to just

439
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: focus on all of that. And it was the last

440
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 2: thing I was expecting. But a friendship created in the

441
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: workplace and then we just yeah, I was very surprised

442
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,239
Speaker 2: by it. But we moved so so slowly, really, I mean,

443
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: people didn't know we were dating for quite a while.

444
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: Why don't we name the man in question to whom

445
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: you're married.

446
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 2: Now I'm married to him, it might be the world.

447
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: I was working on a show with him, Billy Crudep

448
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: and the show was called Gipsy. And yes, we formed

449
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 2: a great working relationship which led to a great friendship

450
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: and now a good, wonderful marriage.

451
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: That's so, that's so great. And I know that you

452
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: talk in the book about sort of different needs that

453
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: you you have at different ages and different things that

454
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: you may be looking for, which I think is also

455
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: really helpful to people, because I think it's very difficult

456
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: for women, I think, to jump back into the dating

457
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: pool these days, and it's quite scary and different with

458
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, apps and all that stuff. And what advice

459
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: would you give to women who would like to find

460
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: a partner. I feel very lucky that I found a

461
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: partner and remarried at fifty seven for crying out loud,

462
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: and you know, we've got married for ten years. Yeah.

463
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: And I always say, just get out there and meet

464
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: people and don't necessarily think of it as finding prince charming.

465
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: But you know, basing a relationship, I think on friendship

466
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: is really important. Companionship similar values. Is that what you

467
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: basically say to your friends who say, does Billy have

468
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: a brother? Because I get that a lot about the

469
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: way is he single? He is? Is he good?

470
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: He's great? Okay, So I think the thing about and

471
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: I and I'm always reluctant to go to deep on

472
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 2: my personal stuff with my relationship, but yeah, we have

473
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: both been through some things, I mean, as you would

474
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 2: have it in your late forties, which is when we met,

475
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: and just you know, not willing to play games and

476
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: you know, and being able to sit in your most

477
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: authentic self and just share and communicate easily and or

478
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: more easily.

479
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, good relationship, Yes, like being exactly who you are

480
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: and not being afraid that that's going to scare someone off.

481
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I have a moment in the

482
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: book where I talk about it rather awkward moments.

483
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: That was so funny. As a farmer patch wearer, I

484
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: could totally relate to that because at one point I

485
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: was dating someone I know, sorry everyone, it was a phase.

486
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what I was thinking. He was nice

487
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: and whatever, but seventeen years younger than I was, and

488
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: I had my estrogen page and nothing really turns a

489
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: guy on like an estuga bat, right, especially if they're

490
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: seventeen years younger. But you do tell a hilarious story

491
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: about you and Billy when you're frantically trying to scrub

492
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: off your estraghip pat.

493
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: And if anyone has won one, you know that they

494
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: take quite a bit of sello grease to get it off.

495
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: In fact, my doctor at the time said use car oil,

496
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure I don't want to use that

497
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: on my body.

498
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure I don't have that handy in

499
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: my bathrooms exactly my handbag.

500
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, I slipped away, not to get in a

501
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: nice little sexy let neglige, but to scrape off my

502
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: patch and leave a nasty.

503
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: Because you were embarrassed that you had to pat.

504
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, But again, being with someone who is uh, you know,

505
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: understanding and not squeamish. He was not spooked at all,

506
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: and I was met with compassion and curiosity rather than

507
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: his own and his own admission, which I'll say for

508
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: the reader, but it was it was something you know,

509
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: See again, we gaslight ourselves. We think this is this

510
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: is all going to be terrible, and we don't give

511
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: a chance, you know, for we we just yeah, I mean,

512
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: if you are owning it and naming it and sharing

513
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: it with your partner whoever you're with, every chance that

514
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: they be they might be willing to be helpful, compassionate

515
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: or yeah, just supportive in ways that we need. So

516
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 2: it's a much better option, I think, to just lean into.

517
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: It, definitely. And you know we're too old to fake it, right,

518
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: And it was a.

519
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: Great litmus test, like if you can't handle this, then yeah, okay,

520
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: maybe we're not meant to be.

521
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: I think one of the things you said about Billy

522
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: and your friends reminded you of this at your bachelorette party,

523
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: which I'm sorry you didn't invite me, Naomi, No, you right,

524
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: you said, loving him is the kindest thing I've ever

525
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: done for myself. What a lovely thing to say.

526
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 2: I'll get a lump in my throat, Katie. Yeah, it was.

527
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: It was It was the truth, and it was something

528
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: really special that I've let myself have and I hadn't.

529
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: I didn't think I would be able to do that.

530
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: I needed a lot of work on myself to get

531
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: to that place.

532
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,959
Speaker 1: I remember this is sort of off topic too, but

533
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: not necessarily. My late husband when he died, I wrote

534
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: something about him and I said, he always made me

535
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: feel safe, sane, and secure. And I think if you

536
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: have a partner who does that, that's what I think

537
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: we all should be looking for. And if you don't

538
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: have a partner that does that, you should reconsider who

539
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: makes you feel bad about yourself or makes you feel

540
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: on edge or walking on eggshells, run for the hills.

541
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: You know. I wanted to ask you a question that

542
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: so many of my followers wanted me to talk about

543
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: with you, which I think is indicative of the.

544
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: Age of most of my followers.

545
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: And that is pain during sex. And you know, this

546
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: is something that I think people are really embarrassed to

547
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: talk about, because I mean, who really wants to talk

548
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: about vaginal dryness? But it's a real thing, and it

549
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: can really hurt a relationship and stop people from being intimate.

550
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: And when that happens, communication breaks down. Yeah, it can

551
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 2: lead to all kinds of.

552
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: But having said that, it's really you know, it's something

553
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: that hasn't gotten a lot of medical attention, and there

554
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: are ways that you know, basically I think we can

555
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: explain to everyone. Most people probably know who are asking

556
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: this question, is a lack of estrogen affects the tissues.

557
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the rules of the vagina get thinner and more delicate.

558
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: And drier, and so oftentimes sex is painful. And this

559
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: is again where estrogen comes into play. You know, it's

560
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: not necessarily it doesn't necessarily go into your body systemically.

561
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: If you use vaginal estrogen. There's also a ring that's

562
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 1: kind of like a diaphragm that you can use that's

563
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: incredibly hard to get by the way, and expensive, yes,

564
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: very expensive. But you know, but just to.

565
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: Say that estrogen cream, vaginal estrogen cream is pretty safe.

566
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: The doctors are pretty aligned on that right, pretty.

567
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: Much everyone exactly, because it doesn't, as you say, go

568
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: into your whole system. But this is something that I

569
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: guess we should say women need to talk with their

570
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: doctor about and there are things that they can do

571
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: that will help.

572
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 2: Yes, and also I will just if I can plug

573
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: my own product. We have vaginal moisturizer called Vadge of

574
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 2: Honor because the vagina must be honored and that's also

575
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 2: incredibly helpful, and using lubricants that there should be no

576
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: shame about having a nice pump right by your bed. Yeah,

577
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: and as you say, I mean, I think women fear

578
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: having sex because it's painful, and then they can't tell

579
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: their partners because that's also humiliating, right.

580
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: And makes it sort of like men, I'm so sorry,

581
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: I'm old. I don't have estrogen and it hurts.

582
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: And if the conversation doesn't take place, you start making

583
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: up stuff in your head. The person who's being told no,

584
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: they can't, you know, they don't want to have sex

585
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: with you, So it starts thinking, oh, they don't love

586
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 2: me anymore, she's having affairs or you know, like.

587
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: Or they're going to go somewhere else, They're going to

588
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: cut somewhere exactly.

589
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

590
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: And also, by the way, affects your libido to your

591
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: sex drive. Yes, what can women do about that.

592
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 2: About their libido? Yeah, well they're I mean again, this

593
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: people that say testosterone can help, and it's not FDA

594
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 2: approved for women yet, but I take testosterone. I started

595
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: taking testosterone a long time ago. I didn't like it.

596
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: It had adverse effects on me, and I started feeling

597
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: a bit like that and I stopped taking it. But

598
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 2: I came back to it later on based on a

599
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: conversation I had with a doctor multiple doctors actually, And

600
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: now I like it, and I think it's all about

601
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 2: trial and error, but it's not for everyone.

602
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,439
Speaker 1: And I think they've learned more in the interim from

603
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: when you first started taking it.

604
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: And now yes, exactly, and I feel a bit better

605
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 2: about it, and I'm not regular about it, but every

606
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: now and again I have a little droplet, and there's

607
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,959
Speaker 2: different delivery methods for testosterone. I have lots of friends

608
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: who take it and lots of friends who are vehemently again,

609
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: so again dealer's choice. You do the research and wik

610
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: it out what's best for you. But it is said

611
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: to be helpful for libido.

612
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: You were an early adapter, Naomi, when it came to

613
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: coming up with some products that are helpful, and you

614
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: have your own company called Stripes. But I was curious

615
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: because it seems like every time I turn around and

616
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: every time I scroll Instagram, I'm assaulted. Actually I get

617
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: more older stuff than that, like zaggy breasts and wrinkles.

618
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: But there's so many products out there and so many companies,

619
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: and I personally worry that some of them are not,

620
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: like they don't have any medical evidence behind them, and

621
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: that in some cases people are jumping on this menopause

622
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: bandwagon and selling products that may or may not help.

623
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: Do you worry about that too, And how do you

624
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: ensure or that women who were buying your products are

625
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 1: actually getting real help and real relief, because I'm sure

626
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 1: you care about that.

627
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do care about that, and I you know,

628
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: our big thing was to help a woman feel seen

629
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 2: because so many and heard and like we're really talking

630
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 2: directly to her symptoms, which mostly it's about skin from

631
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: scalp to vadge. We need hydration, We just need you know,

632
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 2: ultra ultra rich products that are going to sink into

633
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: our skin, into our scalp, into our hair, into our

634
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 2: body and face and vaginas. And they are all clean ingredients,

635
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 2: not harmful ingredients at all. And I just wanted a

636
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: woman to feel like that she's really being spoken to

637
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: and supported, where so many brands are telling you you

638
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: can reverse a aging you know, we can get rid

639
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: of your wrinkles, or we can you know, promise the world,

640
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: and then here they have like a twenty five year

641
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 2: old on their campaign ads or whatever. And that's not

642
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 2: what it feels good for a woman of my age.

643
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to be promised to the world, and

644
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to look like a twenty eight year

645
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 2: old anymore or a twenty five year old. I want

646
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 2: to be just me, but as hydrated as possible and

647
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 2: spoken to authentically.

648
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: I know that you write about being worried, and you

649
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: mentioned in our conversation that you know, being all washed

650
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: up by the time you're forty, and that was common

651
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: sort of knowledge in Hollywood, or at least that was

652
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: what women were told or thought that at a certain

653
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: age they become unfuckable, right, that was the charming expression

654
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: that you even mentioned in your book. And I'm curious

655
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: if you think things are changing in Hollywood. I was

656
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: very heartened to see a lot of older actresses being

657
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: celebrated at the Golden Globes.

658
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 2: Yes this year. Look at all of the Oscar nominees

659
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 2: and yeah, Golden Globe nominees. There's a litany of women

660
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 2: in their fifties driving stories, telling brilliant stories, of sexual stories, stories.

661
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 1: About baby your Fellow be.

662
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 2: A more sexual movie, right right, We've all enjoyed that one.

663
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: Thanks Nick.

664
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 1: I'll never look at a glass of milk the same

665
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: way again.

666
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: But he needs to do it an email can for

667
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: sure that will be funny.

668
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: Got milk?

669
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's heartening things have changed. We're seeing

670
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: it take place in real time, and I think it's

671
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 2: it's a barrage of a lot of things that have

672
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 2: converged all at once, and probably mostly driven by the

673
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 2: fact that we're living longer.

674
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: Right, but we're not living better, which always bums me out.

675
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: And that's why I think your book is so important,

676
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: because we are living longer but not in a healthy way,

677
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: and we have to start thinking about health span instead

678
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: of lifespan, which I think your book is going to

679
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: be so helpful about. I wondered if you could read

680
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: this paragraph you wrote, Oh God, reading aloud is my

681
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations for women in the public.

682
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: But grosses, Katie, Oh do you want mine?

683
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: Well? They are really strong, they're two point five.

684
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: I'm a strong one too. Oh that's good, Okay, good

685
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 2: this bit.

686
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 1: Yes.

687
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 2: In Feud Campodi versus the Swans, I got to play

688
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: the age range of forty to sixty three. I am

689
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 2: my age, and my face represents that, and what I

690
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 2: bring to a story or a character represents that too.

691
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: I experienced grief, I've experienced loss. I've experienced a major breakup,

692
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: and I felt so much shame about having a broken family.

693
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: Even knowing that my ex and I are both in

694
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: a happy, healthier relationship and our kids love their new

695
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 2: family members, I still feel a sense of failure sometimes.

696
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: And so that's the kind of woman. I'm going to play,

697
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: one who's made sacrifices and hard decisions. I'm not going

698
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: to be playing someone who's falling in love for the

699
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: first time. So why shouldn't I just embrace this and

700
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 2: own it. It's fair to say I'm all over the

701
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 2: place on this issue, sometimes for cosmetic interventions and sometimes against.

702
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: I just hope society can get to a place where

703
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: it can handle a woman who looks her age. I'm

704
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 2: counting on people to adjust their tolerance rather than my

705
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 2: having to adjust my jows.

706
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: I thought that was such a great paragraph. You know,

707
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: and you want to play a woman who has lived, yeah,

708
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: and experienced all these things.

709
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, for now. But I also follow the ideology that

710
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: one day I might change my mind, So let me

711
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 2: have that sure, and I but yes, this is the

712
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 2: face I live in. And I wanted to reflect not

713
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: just the story of the character I'm playing, but the

714
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: audience's story, and for that to be reflecting what they

715
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: are going through, and that needs to be as truthful

716
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 2: as possible.

717
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: You talked about experiencing loss, and I know recently you

718
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: lost a very close friend in David Lynch, who really

719
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 1: I think recognized in you, Naomi, something that you felt

720
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people were overlooking. On Instagram, you wrote,

721
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: the world will not be the same without him. His

722
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: creative mentorship was truly powerful. He put me on the

723
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: map the world I've been trying to break into for

724
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: ten plus years, flunking audition and left and right. Finally

725
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: I sat in front of a curious man, beaming with light,

726
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: speaking words from another era, making me laugh and feel

727
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: at ease. How did it even see me? When I

728
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: was so well hidden and I'd even lost sight of myself.

729
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 1: It wasn't just his art that impacted me. His wisdom,

730
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: humor and love gave me a special sense of belief

731
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: in myself I'd never accessed before. What a beautiful thing

732
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: to say about someone.

733
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: He really really was that special. And again, I mean

734
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: I walked into that room and I just felt this

735
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: beaming energy that put me at ease. And he wanted

736
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: to connect and I hadn't had that. I would had

737
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: been flunking all those auditions for ten years and started

738
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: to put barriers out and was basically what my agent

739
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: said was unhirable because I was walking into the room

740
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,439
Speaker 2: with all of this shut down energy. I was, you know,

741
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 2: making people feel uncomfortable with that intensity. I was told

742
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 2: I was not funny, not sexy, too intense, to this,

743
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 2: to that list goes on, and I was just keen

744
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: to get out of their way. I would get in

745
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: the room and be like, I just want the job.

746
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 2: You're not gonna give it to me, Okay, I'll just

747
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: get out of your way. It was really uncomfortable and

748
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: painful and humiliating, and I was in a loop. And

749
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 2: he somehow connected with me despite what I was, you know,

750
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: bringing in and allowed me to just release all of

751
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: those barriers, and he kept me in the room for

752
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: forty five minutes and just got me talking. And from

753
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: that day my life changed. I don't think I would

754
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: still be living in America. If it wasn't for him,

755
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have American children. I would have thrown the

756
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: towel in. You know. I was at that point where

757
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 2: I couldn't have tolerated it any longer if I didn't

758
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: have a breakthrough. And not only did he give me

759
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 2: a role of a.

760
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: Lifetime in Mulholland.

761
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there were two I've had two characters

762
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: to play that were diametrically opposite, and sometimes you don't

763
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 2: get those kind of roles in one whole career, much

764
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: less a movie. So it was just like this unbelievable

765
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 2: showcase for every I mean obviously every director saw that

766
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 2: film because David Lynch, his body of work comes with,

767
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 2: you know, extraordinary interest.

768
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 1: And he's so he was so courageous, right and how

769
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: he did things and why he did things.

770
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: Yes, and that film stands up today. I was just

771
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 2: on his birthday on January twentieth, which he didn't live

772
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: to see. We created a collective meditation around the world

773
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 2: as well as he's At the IFC, they played his

774
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: movie muholland drive our movie, and we went and introduced

775
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 2: the film myself and Justin threw and yeah, that film

776
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: does live on and it is one that will continue

777
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,879
Speaker 2: to be talked about because it was so unique. And

778
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 2: that's all of his films. He doesn't explain them for

779
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 2: people to say, this is the formula and I get

780
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: it right away. He wants you to take it away

781
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: and make it your own version and of you know, whatever,

782
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: however you understand it.

783
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: I watched a wonderful clip of you doing crying at

784
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: a table and then turning away, and then everyone on

785
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: the set burst into applause. Do you remember that?

786
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 2: I do? I do. He created an environment where not

787
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: only did you feel safe, but unbelievably creatively charged and

788
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 2: at your best. He accessed all the best parts of everyone.

789
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 2: And so that's the loss that I'm experiencing it, But

790
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 2: I'm comforted by the joy. You know, if you've spent

791
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: any time reading articles about him over the last week,

792
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: there's so much joy that people have experienced through connection

793
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 2: with whether it's his film or him personally, And people

794
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: are so expressive about that and that is the comfort

795
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 2: and in his loss. But I wish there were more

796
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,919
Speaker 2: like him. I wish there were more people like him,

797
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,720
Speaker 2: because he was, yeah, one of a kind, a real teacher.

798
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: When we lose people like that, I think we think

799
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: about the people they were and how we could be

800
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: more like them. Yes, and I wonder if you have

801
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: been thinking about that.

802
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly his presence, his ability to be so present

803
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: and so himself unapologetically. You know, there's another great video

804
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:54,919
Speaker 2: there where he gets annoyed by someone telling them him

805
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: that he's taking too much time in a certain shot

806
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 2: and he's like, screwed, time, don't tell me about time.

807
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: And so his anger is justified because he doesn't want

808
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 2: to obey the rules. He wants to do it his way.

809
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: And there's something just so wonderfully pure about that he's

810
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 2: on He's doing making art on his own terms, and

811
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 2: that's admirable.

812
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: I feel like you are sort of at a similar

813
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: place in your life. You know, you're living your life

814
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: on your own terms, your authentic self. You're sharing very

815
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 1: personal things I think in service of the greater good

816
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: to help other women. I feel like you're you must

817
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: think about that, Naomi, like this is a really good

818
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: place to be. I'm happy, and I'm fulfilled, and I

819
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 1: have purpose and I'm doing.

820
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: I was going to say that it has given me

821
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 2: a sense of purpose and at this point in my

822
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: life that I didn't know I find and through owning

823
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 2: my story, I've found the most remarkable community of women

824
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 2: as well as doctors and people who want to share

825
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: their stories. And it's been I feel very bolstered by

826
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 2: that community and very empowered about sharing and bringing people

827
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: into the same community as And yeah, it should be

828
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: a time to thrive. It should be. And I've a

829
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 2: lot of great things have happened for me in my

830
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 2: fifties that I'm really proud of. And it's to do

831
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: with the fact that I have done a lot of

832
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 2: work on myself and I'm much more conscious and in

833
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 2: my mind and in my body, and I hope that

834
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 2: for others too.

835
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 1: I thought it was funny that people DM you all

836
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: the time, all the other actors and actresses. I know

837
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: we're supposed to say actors, but I still, yes, in

838
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: this case, we can say actresses. Questions about menopause, you know,

839
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: I'm often a clearing house for questions about cancer, you know,

840
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: I get so many people asking me about that. But

841
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: it must be funny. You have a constant stream of

842
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: dms with people asking you questions about menopause.

843
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a funny moment where random people that

844
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: I've sort of met but not I don't know necessarily,

845
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 2: and someone's linked us up. And I think it's just

846
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 2: that confession that need to Oh God, I'm here, what

847
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 2: do I do? And you know, whether it's a need

848
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 2: for just an ear or a shoulder, I'm there for them.

849
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: You're the metopause guru, right who knew that would be

850
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 2: my future? Or if it was, it's you know, I

851
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 2: need a doctor. I asked what city they're in. If

852
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'll find a way through the doctors.

853
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 2: I know there's a circuit we all communicate with each other.

854
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 2: And yeah, I kind of love that. I love that

855
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 2: I'm one of their first calls.

856
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: Well, the book is called Dare I say it everything

857
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: I wish i'd known about menopause. I just admire you

858
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: so much. I love your work and I'm so happy

859
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: you wrote this book because I think it's going to

860
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: help so many women.

861
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Katie.

862
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,

863
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

864
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

865
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

866
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,720
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

867
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. Executive producers are Me,

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Speaker 1: Katie Couric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

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Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

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Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

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Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

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Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

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Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.