WEBVTT - 3. Suspects 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.240 Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:08.039 not be suitable for all listeners. Search for Robert Fisher 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:11.640 and you're liable to find blue collars. There's his resume. 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:16.880 Aviation fuel handler, firefighter, medical technician. He sees himself as 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.919 gritty and masculine, and that's how he wants others to 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.439 see him too. A hunter, a fisherman, country music, a 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.760 pickup truck. He's a man, blue collar, dammit, and proud 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.800 of it. As he leaves work. On April ninth, two 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:32.680 thousand and one, Fisher wears a blue shirt from a 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.120 fire department. That night, at ten forty two pm, an 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.680 ATM camera captures footage of him wearing an RC COLA shirt. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.440 The footage is black and white, but the logo used 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:44.680 from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and nine was 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:48.519 set against a blue background. The shirt is likely blue. 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:53.040 Ten hours later, Fisher's home explodes. Police photograph a burned 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:55.520 blue shirt, a patch with the charred head of a 0:00:55.600 --> 0:01:00.400 yellow ram, says Bregos, Spring's fire department, Fisher's former em lawyer, 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.240 A blue collar career, a blue collar PERSONA a blue 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.840 collar as he leaves work on April ninth, A blue 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.800 collar the last time we see him, A literal burned 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.120 blue collar in the rubble of his home. This is 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:21.280 the life of Robert Fisher from iHeartRadio and neon thirty three. 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.319 I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona, the 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.400 story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.680 wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and escaping 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.880 into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher, 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:43.319 and I need your help. Let me get this out 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.919 of the way. There is no forensic evidence proving Robert 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.920 Fisher killed his family and blew up their house. It 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.000 might seem reckless to report this. What if there's a trial, 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.480 I'd argue, A, you have to catch him first. You 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:00.360 can't prosecute a ghost and be any half co competent 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.400 defense attorney will hammer this in court. No forensic proof. 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.080 If anything, I hope it encourages Robert to come forward 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.440 to tell his side of the story. In this episode, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.240 we'll answer two key questions. What does the forensic evidence 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.880 tell us about the case and are there any viable 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:24.000 suspects other than Robert Fisher? Chapter one Pathology they were 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.680 asleep in bed when the killer struck. Firefighters find Bobby first, 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.160 then Brittany, then Mary. None have soot or burn marks 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.480 in their windpipes, indicating they died before the fire began. 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.760 The killers slit their throats, cutting into their spines. Mary 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:41.960 has a wedding ring on her finger and a bullet 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.120 in her brain. For an expert opinion, I. 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.880 Consult doctor Todd Lukissevik. 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.239 A forensic pathologist and assistant medical examiner in Pittsburgh. 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.560 I had the opportunity to review three autops reports, three 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:59.120 toxicology reports, ballistic reports, and some typed up notes from 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.560 law enforcement. The reports told the story that the dead 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.560 cannot tell. The adult female had a gunshot wound to 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:07.799 the back of her head. Three lead bullet fragments were 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.040 recovered from that gunshot wound to the head, and she 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.320 also had an in size wound to the left side 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.200 of her neck, which caused lethal injury to the main 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.320 vessels of the neck, the jugular vein and the crowded artery. 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.480 So her cause of death is a combination of the 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.000 gunshot wound to the head and the insize wind of 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.640 the neck. There's no way to tell which came first, 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.360 which came second in and of themselves, they are both 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:34.520 lethal injuries. The young female victim had a insize wound 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:36.800 to the left side of the neck. Again, it caused 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.600 lethal injury to the great vessels of the neck, which 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.560 would be the left crowded artery and the left jugular vein. 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:46.000 No other injuries were documented. All three of these victims 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.120 were severely charred because they were recovered from a house fire, 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.520 so if there was any bruising or anything like that, 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.000 that would be all covered up by this fire because 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.320 most of the skin, subcutaneous tissues, and muscles were consumed 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.280 by the fire. And finally, the young male victim had 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.560 a insize wound to the right side of his neck 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.640 that caused lethal injury to the grade vessels of the 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.480 right side of the neck and also cause injury to 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.520 the TRACHEA. Trachia is your windpipe. The injuries to the 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.840 vessels were again the right crowded artery in the right 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:14.480 regular vein. 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:16.120 When you say in size wound, can. 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:16.800 You elaborate on that? 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.480 Yes? In size wound by definition is a wound from 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.960 a sharp implement that is longer on the skin. Then 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.600 it goes deep whereas a stab wound. The definition of 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.360 a stab woond is a sharp injury where the depth 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.359 inside the body is greater than the length on the skin. 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.640 Can you discuss the degree of force that was used 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:36.960 to cause the injuries to the three vectims? 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:38.880 Well, I would have to ask you the type of knife, 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.240 the sharpness of the knife, things like that. 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.000 This is an important and honest point. It's easy to 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.919 sensationalize the murders. The killer must have been in a 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.640 crazy rage, cutting deep into the spines. 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.359 However, it would not take much force if you have 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.640 a sharp knife. Remember two of these victims were children, 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:00.600 so it wouldn't take much to get to the bony column. 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.159 And the adult female was pretty thin, probably smaller than 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.560 average build, so it wouldn't take too much to get 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.000 to the bone. Is it common to see injuries to 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.840 the bone. It's not uncommon, but it's not real common either. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.560 I would say probably less than a quarter of the cases. 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.479 Twenty percent of the cases. Would you see a mark 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:20.200 on the bone from an in size one? 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.320 But you can't tell definitively the degree of force, For example, 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.479 in la person's term, no, you cannot. 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:28.200 How are their throats cut. 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.679 For the young male, I would assume that it started 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.599 at the midline and goes latterly behind the right ear. 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.760 For the two females, I would assume it started laterally 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.280 and commence to the midline. Most people think that all 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.880 the vessels are midline neck. They're actually on the lateral 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.960 sides of the neck. So someone that would do something 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.360 like this, they know they have to go to the lateral, 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:51.960 not so much midline, so they have to go behind 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.080 the ear kind of drop down from the ear. That's 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:55.840 where your vessels are. That's where you're going to take 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.560 your pulse. So if you're cutting here, you're not doing much. 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.120 If you're cutting midle, you're not doing much. But if 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.320 you cut more lateral, that's where the vessels are. When 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:07.080 you take your pulse, it's kind of below your angle demandible, 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.360 which is your jaw line. That's where the vital area is. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:12.680 So this person, can I say he knew what he 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.120 was doing. Yes, he knew what he was doing because 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:16.880 he got to the vessels and he made sure he 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.560 was deep enough because he got to the spinal column itself. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.400 In your opinion, with the neck wound, is that knowledge 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.400 that someone who is a hunter would have or would 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.760 you need more specific knowledge on human anatomy. 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.200 Now, I think hunter military just someone that if someone's 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.440 watched a TV show on anatomy or autopsy procedure or 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.040 something like that. I don't want to say it's common knowledge, 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.080 but it almost is, because when you take physical ed 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.200 as a grade school child, you're taught to fill your 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.200 pulse on the lateral side of your neck. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.800 So what makes this case stand out? 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:53.040 What was unique is one in size wound on each victim, 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.479 very unique. Usually when a knife's involved, there's a fight, 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.760 there's other marks, there's other stab wound, there's other size wounds, 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.960 there's contusions. But remember these people were in the fire 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.640 and most of their skin was gone due to the fire, 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.280 so a small in size wound or a small stab 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.280 wound could be absent because of the fire consumed it. 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.360 So the uniqueness is the fact that there's just one wound. 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.560 The general understanding that law enforcement has is that the 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.680 victims were all likely individually caught off guard and killed 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.480 in their beds, and none of them heard any of 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:27.520 the other victims being killed. It was a very small 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.800 house and the rooms were pretty close together, so it 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.800 would take someone going into each room and doing this 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.000 and having one shot not to wake everybody else up. 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.720 And it just seems very precise. Do you see anything 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:41.640 to contradict that. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.400 No, I don't. It seems precise and calculated. And if 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.040 you're gonna cause them in size wound to someone's throats, 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:50.920 slit somebody's throat after you do that, you're gonna have 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.280 to hold their head down because they have seconds to 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.920 live to fight back. It's not an incapacitating wound. You're 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:58.800 still gonna be able to move fight back from that. 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.480 So they would splice or throat hold their head down 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:03.280 to the pillow. That would be the only way I 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.320 could see that without someone making a scream or yell 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.960 or cry for help, unless they were gagged or had 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:10.400 something covering their mouth. 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:12.640 Can you discuss what you were able to determine about 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.120 bullet six? What were you able to tell from the records? 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:19.400 So the autopsy pathologist was able to recover three lead 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.840 bullet fragments that were severely deformed from the skull and 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:27.080 brain of the adult female. They were described as being led. 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.360 They were described as being small fragments. There is no 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.000 description of any exit wound or anything else that is collected. 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.520 From the ballistic report from the crime lab, it does 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:42.120 not describe how many fragments were collected, and it says 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.560 the fragments are consistent with a twenty five caliber bullet. 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.960 And I'm not sure how that conclusion was made given 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.040 the report I have, because there's no weight, there's no description, 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:56.160 there's no photography, there's no description of the lands or grooves, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.840 there's no description if it's jacketed or unjacketed, if it's lead, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.000 fit's coppered. So I would believe that we're missing some 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.920 of the report because I could not come to that 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.520 conclusion with three small fragments that it's coming from any 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.400 sort of caliber let alone a twenty five caliber, which 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.200 is a weird and unique round. It's around with the 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.920 least amount of velocity and a least amount of energy 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:22.680 out of all center fire handgun rounds. It's a round 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.120 that most people would not use or shoot or even have, 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.400 because it's really not good for anything. Gunshot wind to 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.840 the head is good for, but nothing else. If you 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:34.880 shoot someone in a body that has a hoodie on 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.719 or a jacket, it's not going to penetrate deep enough 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:38.839 to get to where it needs to get. 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.480 I won't ask you to turn into a firearms expert, but. 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.920 I kind of am. But going okay, well, I mean 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.120 I'm not the expert like Lease, but we. 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.480 Generally what would a twenty five use. 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.960 For it's a small pocket gun. It's a part they 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:54.800 call it. They used to call them in a ninety 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.560 Saturday Night specials. It's a small pocket gun. You usually 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.000 can buy them for fifty dollars. The bullets, the rounds 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.800 themselves are usually full metal jacket rounds for a twenty five. 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.400 These are described by the autopsy pathologists as lead bullet fragments, 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.400 not full metal jacket rounds. What can you tell about lead? 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.040 Tells me that there was no jacket. Recovered bullets are 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.680 composed of lead, and they usually have a jacket. That 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:20.240 jacket's in metal. It's usually copper copper jacketed bullet. So 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.800 you either have a lead bullet or you have a 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.600 some kind of jacketed bullet, which is a lead bullet 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.280 covered by a jacket. There's no description of any. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.520 Jacket here, and there was no exit wound. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.080 So there's no exit wound described in the autopsy report. 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.559 So presumably whatever bullet was used was. 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:38.760 Not jacketed, That would be a good presumption. 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.400 Yes, would that be consistent with a twenty two or 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:42.040 thirty eight? 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.640 Could definitely be consistent with a twenty two because twenty 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.680 twos are not jacketed, twenty two room fires are never jacketed, 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.280 and for a thirty eight thirty eight sometimes they're all lead. 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:53.280 Is there anything to tell from the lack of an 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:54.800 exit wound about the caliber? 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.480 I have my opinions after doing thousands of gunshot wounds. 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.760 But typically if it's a lead bullet under thirty eight 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.000 caliber nine caliber usually stays in the body, as usually 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.880 stays in the head. If it's a full metal jacket 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.600 anything thirty eight or above, it usually goes through and through, 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:11.920 it goes in, and it exits. 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.160 So if it was a thirty eight that was all 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:15.800 led a ZAC consystem with does. 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.680 Yes, it could stay in. Yes, interesting, But I would 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:20.960 like to see those fragments because if those fragments are 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.840 super tiny, it's not a thirty eight. That's why seeing 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:28.160 the fragments, weighing those fragments, measuring those fragments being more 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.480 descriptive with the fragments that were retained, would tell me 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.400 almost immediately if we're in a thirty eight class, are 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.040 we in the twenty two class? Because there's a big 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.840 difference point three to eight of an inch versus point 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:39.800 two two of an inch. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.800 What about fire? How effectively does it destroy bodies? 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:45.800 You're never going to consume a whole body, but if 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.760 you read the autopsy report, there's a lot of limbs missing. 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.400 Most of the skin was missing, most of the muscle 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:52.559 was consumed by the fire. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.720 Conclusions the killer slit Mary, Brittany and Bobby's throats with 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.160 a sharp instrument, likely a knife. We can't determine the 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.320 degree of force he used. Police and the media have 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.120 repeatedly painted a portrait of a crazed killer nearly beheading 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.800 his victims in a fit of rage, a narrative not 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:14.360 supported by the evidence. A sharp knife used on small 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.760 victims can cause spinal injuries without extreme force. This might 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.719 seem pedantic, but it's not only about Robert Fisher. It's 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.520 about reality itself. The road to greater truths is not 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:29.120 paved with cloudy distortions. We should resist the urge to 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.560 soothe ourselves by morphing complex humans into cartoon demons. The 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.040 suburban dad who kills his kids is bad enough, no 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.559 need to pump him full of steroids to lionize him. 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.240 Another fact stated repeatedly that Mary was shot in the 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.760 head with a thirty eight, but a police document I 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.120 obtained says bullet fragments in her brain were consistent with 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.559 a twenty five, not a thirty eight. Why does this matter? Well, 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.520 at least one of Robert's guns, a thirty eight Revolver, 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.120 was missing from the house. Pointing out that bullet fragments 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.680 don't necessarily match the caliber of the missing gun complicates 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.560 an otherwise simple narrative that Robert fled with a murder weapon. 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.480 But I'm here to complicate simple narratives because what's true 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.800 is true, and this is an exercise in digging up fact, 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.400 not crafting fiction. If Mary was indeed shot with a 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.320 twenty five, that's bizarre. It's a tiny, weak, little pistol. 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.520 I wonder if it belonged to Mary, not Robert, if 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.439 she bought it for protection Scott Steel Detective T. J. 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.439 Juran calls the gun shot the fuck you shot, and 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.920 what better fu than to shoot someone with their own gun. Separately, 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.360 investigators find a black metal hammer in the rubble of 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.880 the master bedroom. Why is it there? Robert was a 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.480 neat freak who demanded everything be in its place. Mary's 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.199 mom said that if the kids left anything lying around, 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.600 Robert would throw it in the trash. So what's a 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.520 random hammer doing in the bedroom the night of the murders? 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.880 Did Mary stash it there as a defensive weapon? This 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:04.920 is speculation, but I'm curious. Chapter two fingerprints. A key 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.160 mystery of this case is why, when located in the forest, 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.240 Mary's suv is quote wiped clean. You would expect to 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.960 find Robert's fingerprints in his wife's suv. It proves nothing, 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.920 so why would he wipe it down? Does this point 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.640 to the involvement of an accomplice or even a different 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.880 killer if the suv was wiped clean, I'd say yes, 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.800 But this mystery is in fact a myth. Police recover 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:34.280 at least seven fingerprints, six from interior windows and one 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.720 from an exterior window. For an expert opinion, I consult 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:42.280 Matthew Steiner. Matt recently retired from the NYPD after processing 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.920 more than two thousand crime scenes during a twenty five 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.920 year career in which he also consulted for the FBI 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.880 and State department. He now works for a company called 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:55.880 TriTech Forensics. Generally, is it unusual not to recover prints 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.000 from a car wipe the Samana SUV. 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.440 I spent so many times in my career having to 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:05.280 explain this to other investigators, to bosses, and the most importantly, 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.840 to jury's. Your fingerprints are not absolute though. If you 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:13.000 watch CSI every single damn episode, they'll be dusting feathers 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.080 and other ridiculous things and getting fingerprints, and then in 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.920 that show they'll be like, oh, there isn't fingerprints on 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.640 this object that we know the suspect handled because it 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:25.280 was wiped down, or the suspect was wearing gloves. Those 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.720 are possibilities, that's not always the case. There's so many 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:30.960 variables to why you would or wouldn't leave a fingerprint. 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.800 First off, the surface is dirty and you touch it, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.360 you may be picking up that dust. That dust, that 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.080 dirt is filling into the furrows or your friction ridges, 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.200 and though you could physically see the impression, there's no 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.720 detail there to be recovered. There's no minutia in that impression. 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:51.120 It could be that direct exposure sunlight is evaporating the 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.960 fingerprint and most of your fingerprint is ninety five to 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.720 ninety nine percent water, depending on this person and a 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.680 lot of other variables. So if that's in direct exposure 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.240 to the sun, which in this case it was, that could 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.320 also destroy fingerprints. It's too hot, the person is sweating, 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:11.040 they're touching areas, they're leaving just pools of moisture behind 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.640 that they're not leaving readable fingerprints. It's too cold, you're 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.320 not perspiring at all. You're touching things and there's not 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.800 much transfer there. Wiping things down hand coverings are certainly possibility, 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.840 but just the act of touching something that's been touched 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.600 over and over again, then you have superimposed fingerprints, so 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.640 the door, handles of the car, the steering wheel, it's 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:31.960 another option. You know, you're touching areas that you touch 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.840 over and over again. You don't have readable fingerprints because 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.000 you have all this overlapping. And then most importantly is 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.480 you got to think what are the conducive surfaces that 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.600 are being touched. Is the surface good for fingerprints? You know, 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.600 so something that's smooth and shiny, non porous is your 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:51.000 best option. So on the vehicle, sure, the body, the glass, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.480 those are great, but inside the fabric materials, the texture 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.520 to something. If it's not smooth, you touch something and 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.160 it has like a surface that isn't smooth, there's nowhere 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.480 for those fingerprints to go flat onto and you don't 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:06.719 have wheedled fingerprints. 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.320 In many cases, we go process. 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.320 A suspects car or a victim's car and it happens 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.879 where you just don't get fingerprints, and someone who doesn't 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.960 understand how it works can misinterpret that as being wiped down. 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:22.119 In this case, though police do recover prints, seven of 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.440 them from windows. Whoever abandoned the suv in the woods 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.879 left all five windows down, exposing the interior to wind 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:33.960 and snow, but inadvertently protecting fingerprints on glass. Quick note, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.359 the Forerunner is surprisingly clean, no caked mud, no paw prints, 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.800 a minimal amount of dirt, just some pine needles. It's 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.399 parked in a tight cluster of trees, protected in part 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.440 by towering Ponderosa pines. Police have to call in two 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.280 trucks to extricate it. Snow starts falling as drivers load 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.520 it onto a flatbed. On the trip back to Scottsdale, 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.760 wind rips apart a protective tarp. Crime scene technical find 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.159 shredded pieces of it in the suv, but apparently remove 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.960 them before photographing it. No tart pieces are visible in 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:14.800 official images. Conclusions the Forerunner is not wiped clean. Given 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.200 the circumstances, it's not at all surprising that crime scene 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.040 technicians didn't recover more fingerprints. In fact, it's impressive they 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.080 recovered even seven. Who do these seven belong to? I 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.440 don't know, but if any belonged to Robert, police would 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.280 be able to id them. His prints are on file 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:38.200 from his time in the Navy. Chapter three blood investigators 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.160 find no confirmed trace of blood in the Forerunner, remarkable 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.280 considering the violent nature of the murders. The killer cleaned 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.359 up perfectly before escaping. They do, however, get a single, 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:54.200 inconclusive luminol reaction on the front passenger floor mat. Luminol 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.480 is a chemical that glows blue in the presence of blood. 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.800 To decipher this, I call Karen elliet It. Karen is 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.080 a bloodstain expert formerly with the Utah Bureau of Forensic Services. 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.440 She's now a private consultant and volunteer for the nonprofit 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:13.800 Cold Case Foundation. The problem with luminol and bluestar, another 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.280 chemical reagent, is. 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.919 That they both react sometimes to things other. 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.600 Than blood, including copper, cobalt, iron, and some chemicals like bleach. 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.679 Would luminol react to animal blood? Yes, so Scott Steele 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.240 gets a luminol reaction on the floor mat, but that 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:32.760 doesn't tell us much. I send a photo of the 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:33.720 reaction to Karen. 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.480 It has very defined lines, and that leads me to 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.879 believe that if it were in fact blood, that it 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.600 might have been transferred from potentially a weapon or some 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.680 kind of an item that was transferred. The lines are 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.359 very very defined. It does not look like a drop 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.000 of blood. It looks like almost like a transfer. But 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.199 in addition, it could be just some kind of a 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.280 metal shaving or something that transfer off of a piece 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.080 of metal that would have caused that kind of a 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.000 defined line there or defined shape. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.480 If the match still exists today, Karen says there. 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.879 Might be a potential for DNA conclusion. 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:19.080 We don't know what caused the aluminal reaction human blood, 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.480 animal blood, metal, bleach, but modern testing could tell us more. 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:30.040 Chapter four DNA, a hat, a cigarette, butt, a shoe. 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:36.439 Investigators recover DNA from all three. The hat, specifically the 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.560 Oakland Raiders ball cap, Robert Fisher wore the night of 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.480 April ninth, two thousand and one. Police find it in 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.679 Mary's for runner. They pull from it a partial DNA 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:50.800 profile that appears to match Robert the cigarette butt. Robert 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.520 doesn't smoke cigarettes. He chews tobacco. I don't know where 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.479 police find the cigarette butt, but they recover from it 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:01.120 a complete DNA profile that belongs to an unknown male. 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:06.080 The shoe Police retrieve a pair of white rebox sneakers 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.560 from Roberts worklocker at the Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.919 They collect DNA from a heel and a blood stain. 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.679 The heel DNA is a mix from an unknown female 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.920 and an unknown male. It doesn't tell us anything. It 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:25.119 could have come from anyone doctors, nurses, patients. The blood stain, though, 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.000 is intriguing. I decide to fly to New York City 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:33.040 to consult Lisa Desire. You might recognize the name Desire 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.280 in season two Missing on nine to eleven. We interviewed 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.879