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Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may

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Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. Search for Robert Fisher

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Speaker 1: and you're liable to find blue collars. There's his resume.

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Speaker 1: Aviation fuel handler, firefighter, medical technician. He sees himself as

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Speaker 1: gritty and masculine, and that's how he wants others to

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Speaker 1: see him too. A hunter, a fisherman, country music, a

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Speaker 1: pickup truck. He's a man, blue collar, dammit, and proud

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Speaker 1: of it. As he leaves work. On April ninth, two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one, Fisher wears a blue shirt from a

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Speaker 1: fire department. That night, at ten forty two pm, an

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Speaker 1: ATM camera captures footage of him wearing an RC COLA shirt.

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Speaker 1: The footage is black and white, but the logo used

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Speaker 1: from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and nine was

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Speaker 1: set against a blue background. The shirt is likely blue.

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Speaker 1: Ten hours later, Fisher's home explodes. Police photograph a burned

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Speaker 1: blue shirt, a patch with the charred head of a

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Speaker 1: yellow ram, says Bregos, Spring's fire department, Fisher's former em lawyer,

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Speaker 1: A blue collar career, a blue collar PERSONA a blue

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Speaker 1: collar as he leaves work on April ninth, A blue

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Speaker 1: collar the last time we see him, A literal burned

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Speaker 1: blue collar in the rubble of his home. This is

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Speaker 1: the life of Robert Fisher from iHeartRadio and neon thirty three.

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Speaker 1: I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona, the

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Speaker 1: story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his

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Speaker 1: wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and escaping

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Speaker 1: into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher,

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Speaker 1: and I need your help. Let me get this out

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Speaker 1: of the way. There is no forensic evidence proving Robert

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Speaker 1: Fisher killed his family and blew up their house. It

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Speaker 1: might seem reckless to report this. What if there's a trial,

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Speaker 1: I'd argue, A, you have to catch him first. You

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Speaker 1: can't prosecute a ghost and be any half co competent

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Speaker 1: defense attorney will hammer this in court. No forensic proof.

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Speaker 1: If anything, I hope it encourages Robert to come forward

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Speaker 1: to tell his side of the story. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: we'll answer two key questions. What does the forensic evidence

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Speaker 1: tell us about the case and are there any viable

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Speaker 1: suspects other than Robert Fisher? Chapter one Pathology they were

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Speaker 1: asleep in bed when the killer struck. Firefighters find Bobby first,

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Speaker 1: then Brittany, then Mary. None have soot or burn marks

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Speaker 1: in their windpipes, indicating they died before the fire began.

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Speaker 1: The killers slit their throats, cutting into their spines. Mary

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Speaker 1: has a wedding ring on her finger and a bullet

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Speaker 1: in her brain. For an expert opinion, I.

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Speaker 2: Consult doctor Todd Lukissevik.

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Speaker 1: A forensic pathologist and assistant medical examiner in Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 2: I had the opportunity to review three autops reports, three

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Speaker 2: toxicology reports, ballistic reports, and some typed up notes from

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Speaker 2: law enforcement. The reports told the story that the dead

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Speaker 2: cannot tell. The adult female had a gunshot wound to

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Speaker 2: the back of her head. Three lead bullet fragments were

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Speaker 2: recovered from that gunshot wound to the head, and she

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Speaker 2: also had an in size wound to the left side

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Speaker 2: of her neck, which caused lethal injury to the main

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Speaker 2: vessels of the neck, the jugular vein and the crowded artery.

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Speaker 2: So her cause of death is a combination of the

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Speaker 2: gunshot wound to the head and the insize wind of

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Speaker 2: the neck. There's no way to tell which came first,

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Speaker 2: which came second in and of themselves, they are both

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Speaker 2: lethal injuries. The young female victim had a insize wound

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Speaker 2: to the left side of the neck. Again, it caused

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Speaker 2: lethal injury to the great vessels of the neck, which

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Speaker 2: would be the left crowded artery and the left jugular vein.

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Speaker 2: No other injuries were documented. All three of these victims

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Speaker 2: were severely charred because they were recovered from a house fire,

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Speaker 2: so if there was any bruising or anything like that,

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Speaker 2: that would be all covered up by this fire because

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Speaker 2: most of the skin, subcutaneous tissues, and muscles were consumed

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Speaker 2: by the fire. And finally, the young male victim had

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Speaker 2: a insize wound to the right side of his neck

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Speaker 2: that caused lethal injury to the grade vessels of the

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Speaker 2: right side of the neck and also cause injury to

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Speaker 2: the TRACHEA. Trachia is your windpipe. The injuries to the

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Speaker 2: vessels were again the right crowded artery in the right

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Speaker 2: regular vein.

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Speaker 3: When you say in size wound, can.

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Speaker 4: You elaborate on that?

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Speaker 2: Yes? In size wound by definition is a wound from

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Speaker 2: a sharp implement that is longer on the skin. Then

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Speaker 2: it goes deep whereas a stab wound. The definition of

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Speaker 2: a stab woond is a sharp injury where the depth

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Speaker 2: inside the body is greater than the length on the skin.

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Speaker 3: Can you discuss the degree of force that was used

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Speaker 3: to cause the injuries to the three vectims?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would have to ask you the type of knife,

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Speaker 2: the sharpness of the knife, things like that.

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Speaker 1: This is an important and honest point. It's easy to

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Speaker 1: sensationalize the murders. The killer must have been in a

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Speaker 1: crazy rage, cutting deep into the spines.

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Speaker 2: However, it would not take much force if you have

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Speaker 2: a sharp knife. Remember two of these victims were children,

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Speaker 2: so it wouldn't take much to get to the bony column.

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Speaker 2: And the adult female was pretty thin, probably smaller than

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Speaker 2: average build, so it wouldn't take too much to get

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Speaker 2: to the bone. Is it common to see injuries to

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Speaker 2: the bone. It's not uncommon, but it's not real common either.

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Speaker 2: I would say probably less than a quarter of the cases.

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Speaker 2: Twenty percent of the cases. Would you see a mark

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Speaker 2: on the bone from an in size one?

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Speaker 3: But you can't tell definitively the degree of force, For example,

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Speaker 3: in la person's term, no, you cannot.

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Speaker 1: How are their throats cut.

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Speaker 2: For the young male, I would assume that it started

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Speaker 2: at the midline and goes latterly behind the right ear.

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Speaker 2: For the two females, I would assume it started laterally

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Speaker 2: and commence to the midline. Most people think that all

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Speaker 2: the vessels are midline neck. They're actually on the lateral

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Speaker 2: sides of the neck. So someone that would do something

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Speaker 2: like this, they know they have to go to the lateral,

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Speaker 2: not so much midline, so they have to go behind

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Speaker 2: the ear kind of drop down from the ear. That's

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Speaker 2: where your vessels are. That's where you're going to take

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Speaker 2: your pulse. So if you're cutting here, you're not doing much.

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Speaker 2: If you're cutting midle, you're not doing much. But if

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Speaker 2: you cut more lateral, that's where the vessels are. When

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Speaker 2: you take your pulse, it's kind of below your angle demandible,

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Speaker 2: which is your jaw line. That's where the vital area is.

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Speaker 2: So this person, can I say he knew what he

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Speaker 2: was doing. Yes, he knew what he was doing because

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Speaker 2: he got to the vessels and he made sure he

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Speaker 2: was deep enough because he got to the spinal column itself.

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Speaker 3: In your opinion, with the neck wound, is that knowledge

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Speaker 3: that someone who is a hunter would have or would

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Speaker 3: you need more specific knowledge on human anatomy.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think hunter military just someone that if someone's

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Speaker 2: watched a TV show on anatomy or autopsy procedure or

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Speaker 2: something like that. I don't want to say it's common knowledge,

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Speaker 2: but it almost is, because when you take physical ed

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Speaker 2: as a grade school child, you're taught to fill your

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Speaker 2: pulse on the lateral side of your neck.

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Speaker 1: So what makes this case stand out?

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Speaker 2: What was unique is one in size wound on each victim,

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Speaker 2: very unique. Usually when a knife's involved, there's a fight,

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Speaker 2: there's other marks, there's other stab wound, there's other size wounds,

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Speaker 2: there's contusions. But remember these people were in the fire

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Speaker 2: and most of their skin was gone due to the fire,

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Speaker 2: so a small in size wound or a small stab

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Speaker 2: wound could be absent because of the fire consumed it.

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Speaker 2: So the uniqueness is the fact that there's just one wound.

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Speaker 3: The general understanding that law enforcement has is that the

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Speaker 3: victims were all likely individually caught off guard and killed

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Speaker 3: in their beds, and none of them heard any of

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Speaker 3: the other victims being killed. It was a very small

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Speaker 3: house and the rooms were pretty close together, so it

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Speaker 3: would take someone going into each room and doing this

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Speaker 3: and having one shot not to wake everybody else up.

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Speaker 3: And it just seems very precise. Do you see anything

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Speaker 3: to contradict that.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't. It seems precise and calculated. And if

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Speaker 2: you're gonna cause them in size wound to someone's throats,

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Speaker 2: slit somebody's throat after you do that, you're gonna have

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Speaker 2: to hold their head down because they have seconds to

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Speaker 2: live to fight back. It's not an incapacitating wound. You're

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Speaker 2: still gonna be able to move fight back from that.

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Speaker 2: So they would splice or throat hold their head down

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Speaker 2: to the pillow. That would be the only way I

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Speaker 2: could see that without someone making a scream or yell

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Speaker 2: or cry for help, unless they were gagged or had

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Speaker 2: something covering their mouth.

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Speaker 3: Can you discuss what you were able to determine about

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Speaker 3: bullet six? What were you able to tell from the records?

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Speaker 2: So the autopsy pathologist was able to recover three lead

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Speaker 2: bullet fragments that were severely deformed from the skull and

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Speaker 2: brain of the adult female. They were described as being led.

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Speaker 2: They were described as being small fragments. There is no

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Speaker 2: description of any exit wound or anything else that is collected.

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Speaker 2: From the ballistic report from the crime lab, it does

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Speaker 2: not describe how many fragments were collected, and it says

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Speaker 2: the fragments are consistent with a twenty five caliber bullet.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not sure how that conclusion was made given

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Speaker 2: the report I have, because there's no weight, there's no description,

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Speaker 2: there's no photography, there's no description of the lands or grooves,

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Speaker 2: there's no description if it's jacketed or unjacketed, if it's lead,

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Speaker 2: fit's coppered. So I would believe that we're missing some

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Speaker 2: of the report because I could not come to that

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Speaker 2: conclusion with three small fragments that it's coming from any

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Speaker 2: sort of caliber let alone a twenty five caliber, which

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Speaker 2: is a weird and unique round. It's around with the

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Speaker 2: least amount of velocity and a least amount of energy

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Speaker 2: out of all center fire handgun rounds. It's a round

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Speaker 2: that most people would not use or shoot or even have,

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Speaker 2: because it's really not good for anything. Gunshot wind to

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Speaker 2: the head is good for, but nothing else. If you

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Speaker 2: shoot someone in a body that has a hoodie on

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Speaker 2: or a jacket, it's not going to penetrate deep enough

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Speaker 2: to get to where it needs to get.

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Speaker 3: I won't ask you to turn into a firearms expert, but.

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Speaker 2: I kind of am. But going okay, well, I mean

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Speaker 2: I'm not the expert like Lease, but we.

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Speaker 3: Generally what would a twenty five use.

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Speaker 2: For it's a small pocket gun. It's a part they

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Speaker 2: call it. They used to call them in a ninety

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Speaker 2: Saturday Night specials. It's a small pocket gun. You usually

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Speaker 2: can buy them for fifty dollars. The bullets, the rounds

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Speaker 2: themselves are usually full metal jacket rounds for a twenty five.

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Speaker 2: These are described by the autopsy pathologists as lead bullet fragments,

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Speaker 2: not full metal jacket rounds. What can you tell about lead?

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Speaker 2: Tells me that there was no jacket. Recovered bullets are

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Speaker 2: composed of lead, and they usually have a jacket. That

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Speaker 2: jacket's in metal. It's usually copper copper jacketed bullet. So

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Speaker 2: you either have a lead bullet or you have a

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Speaker 2: some kind of jacketed bullet, which is a lead bullet

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Speaker 2: covered by a jacket. There's no description of any.

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Speaker 3: Jacket here, and there was no exit wound.

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Speaker 2: So there's no exit wound described in the autopsy report.

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Speaker 3: So presumably whatever bullet was used was.

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Speaker 2: Not jacketed, That would be a good presumption.

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Speaker 3: Yes, would that be consistent with a twenty two or

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Speaker 3: thirty eight?

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Speaker 2: Could definitely be consistent with a twenty two because twenty

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Speaker 2: twos are not jacketed, twenty two room fires are never jacketed,

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Speaker 2: and for a thirty eight thirty eight sometimes they're all lead.

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Speaker 3: Is there anything to tell from the lack of an

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Speaker 3: exit wound about the caliber?

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Speaker 2: I have my opinions after doing thousands of gunshot wounds.

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Speaker 2: But typically if it's a lead bullet under thirty eight

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Speaker 2: caliber nine caliber usually stays in the body, as usually

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Speaker 2: stays in the head. If it's a full metal jacket

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Speaker 2: anything thirty eight or above, it usually goes through and through,

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Speaker 2: it goes in, and it exits.

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Speaker 3: So if it was a thirty eight that was all

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Speaker 3: led a ZAC consystem with does.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it could stay in. Yes, interesting, But I would

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Speaker 2: like to see those fragments because if those fragments are

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Speaker 2: super tiny, it's not a thirty eight. That's why seeing

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Speaker 2: the fragments, weighing those fragments, measuring those fragments being more

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Speaker 2: descriptive with the fragments that were retained, would tell me

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Speaker 2: almost immediately if we're in a thirty eight class, are

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Speaker 2: we in the twenty two class? Because there's a big

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Speaker 2: difference point three to eight of an inch versus point

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Speaker 2: two two of an inch.

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Speaker 1: What about fire? How effectively does it destroy bodies?

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Speaker 2: You're never going to consume a whole body, but if

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Speaker 2: you read the autopsy report, there's a lot of limbs missing.

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Speaker 2: Most of the skin was missing, most of the muscle

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Speaker 2: was consumed by the fire.

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Speaker 1: Conclusions the killer slit Mary, Brittany and Bobby's throats with

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Speaker 1: a sharp instrument, likely a knife. We can't determine the

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Speaker 1: degree of force he used. Police and the media have

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Speaker 1: repeatedly painted a portrait of a crazed killer nearly beheading

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Speaker 1: his victims in a fit of rage, a narrative not

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Speaker 1: supported by the evidence. A sharp knife used on small

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Speaker 1: victims can cause spinal injuries without extreme force. This might

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Speaker 1: seem pedantic, but it's not only about Robert Fisher. It's

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Speaker 1: about reality itself. The road to greater truths is not

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Speaker 1: paved with cloudy distortions. We should resist the urge to

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Speaker 1: soothe ourselves by morphing complex humans into cartoon demons. The

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Speaker 1: suburban dad who kills his kids is bad enough, no

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Speaker 1: need to pump him full of steroids to lionize him.

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Speaker 1: Another fact stated repeatedly that Mary was shot in the

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Speaker 1: head with a thirty eight, but a police document I

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Speaker 1: obtained says bullet fragments in her brain were consistent with

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Speaker 1: a twenty five, not a thirty eight. Why does this matter? Well,

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Speaker 1: at least one of Robert's guns, a thirty eight Revolver,

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Speaker 1: was missing from the house. Pointing out that bullet fragments

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily match the caliber of the missing gun complicates

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Speaker 1: an otherwise simple narrative that Robert fled with a murder weapon.

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Speaker 1: But I'm here to complicate simple narratives because what's true

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Speaker 1: is true, and this is an exercise in digging up fact,

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Speaker 1: not crafting fiction. If Mary was indeed shot with a

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Speaker 1: twenty five, that's bizarre. It's a tiny, weak, little pistol.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it belonged to Mary, not Robert, if

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Speaker 1: she bought it for protection Scott Steel Detective T. J.

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Speaker 1: Juran calls the gun shot the fuck you shot, and

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Speaker 1: what better fu than to shoot someone with their own gun. Separately,

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Speaker 1: investigators find a black metal hammer in the rubble of

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Speaker 1: the master bedroom. Why is it there? Robert was a

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Speaker 1: neat freak who demanded everything be in its place. Mary's

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Speaker 1: mom said that if the kids left anything lying around,

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Speaker 1: Robert would throw it in the trash. So what's a

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Speaker 1: random hammer doing in the bedroom the night of the murders?

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Speaker 1: Did Mary stash it there as a defensive weapon? This

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Speaker 1: is speculation, but I'm curious. Chapter two fingerprints. A key

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Speaker 1: mystery of this case is why, when located in the forest,

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Speaker 1: Mary's suv is quote wiped clean. You would expect to

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Speaker 1: find Robert's fingerprints in his wife's suv. It proves nothing,

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Speaker 1: so why would he wipe it down? Does this point

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Speaker 1: to the involvement of an accomplice or even a different

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Speaker 1: killer if the suv was wiped clean, I'd say yes,

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Speaker 1: But this mystery is in fact a myth. Police recover

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Speaker 1: at least seven fingerprints, six from interior windows and one

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Speaker 1: from an exterior window. For an expert opinion, I consult

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Speaker 1: Matthew Steiner. Matt recently retired from the NYPD after processing

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Speaker 1: more than two thousand crime scenes during a twenty five

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Speaker 1: year career in which he also consulted for the FBI

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Speaker 1: and State department. He now works for a company called

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Speaker 1: TriTech Forensics. Generally, is it unusual not to recover prints

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Speaker 1: from a car wipe the Samana SUV.

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Speaker 5: I spent so many times in my career having to

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Speaker 5: explain this to other investigators, to bosses, and the most importantly,

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Speaker 5: to jury's. Your fingerprints are not absolute though. If you

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Speaker 5: watch CSI every single damn episode, they'll be dusting feathers

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Speaker 5: and other ridiculous things and getting fingerprints, and then in

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Speaker 5: that show they'll be like, oh, there isn't fingerprints on

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Speaker 5: this object that we know the suspect handled because it

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Speaker 5: was wiped down, or the suspect was wearing gloves. Those

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Speaker 5: are possibilities, that's not always the case. There's so many

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Speaker 5: variables to why you would or wouldn't leave a fingerprint.

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Speaker 5: First off, the surface is dirty and you touch it,

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Speaker 5: you may be picking up that dust. That dust, that

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Speaker 5: dirt is filling into the furrows or your friction ridges,

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Speaker 5: and though you could physically see the impression, there's no

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Speaker 5: detail there to be recovered. There's no minutia in that impression.

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Speaker 5: It could be that direct exposure sunlight is evaporating the

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Speaker 5: fingerprint and most of your fingerprint is ninety five to

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Speaker 5: ninety nine percent water, depending on this person and a

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Speaker 5: lot of other variables. So if that's in direct exposure

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Speaker 5: to the sun, which in this case it was, that could

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Speaker 5: also destroy fingerprints. It's too hot, the person is sweating,

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Speaker 5: they're touching areas, they're leaving just pools of moisture behind

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Speaker 5: that they're not leaving readable fingerprints. It's too cold, you're

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Speaker 5: not perspiring at all. You're touching things and there's not

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Speaker 5: much transfer there. Wiping things down hand coverings are certainly possibility,

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Speaker 5: but just the act of touching something that's been touched

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Speaker 5: over and over again, then you have superimposed fingerprints, so

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Speaker 5: the door, handles of the car, the steering wheel, it's

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Speaker 5: another option. You know, you're touching areas that you touch

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Speaker 5: over and over again. You don't have readable fingerprints because

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Speaker 5: you have all this overlapping. And then most importantly is

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Speaker 5: you got to think what are the conducive surfaces that

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Speaker 5: are being touched. Is the surface good for fingerprints? You know,

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Speaker 5: so something that's smooth and shiny, non porous is your

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Speaker 5: best option. So on the vehicle, sure, the body, the glass,

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Speaker 5: those are great, but inside the fabric materials, the texture

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Speaker 5: to something. If it's not smooth, you touch something and

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Speaker 5: it has like a surface that isn't smooth, there's nowhere

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Speaker 5: for those fingerprints to go flat onto and you don't

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Speaker 5: have wheedled fingerprints.

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Speaker 1: In many cases, we go process.

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Speaker 5: A suspects car or a victim's car and it happens

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Speaker 5: where you just don't get fingerprints, and someone who doesn't

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Speaker 5: understand how it works can misinterpret that as being wiped down.

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Speaker 1: In this case, though police do recover prints, seven of

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Speaker 1: them from windows. Whoever abandoned the suv in the woods

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Speaker 1: left all five windows down, exposing the interior to wind

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Speaker 1: and snow, but inadvertently protecting fingerprints on glass. Quick note,

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Speaker 1: the Forerunner is surprisingly clean, no caked mud, no paw prints,

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Speaker 1: a minimal amount of dirt, just some pine needles. It's

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Speaker 1: parked in a tight cluster of trees, protected in part

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Speaker 1: by towering Ponderosa pines. Police have to call in two

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Speaker 1: trucks to extricate it. Snow starts falling as drivers load

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Speaker 1: it onto a flatbed. On the trip back to Scottsdale,

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Speaker 1: wind rips apart a protective tarp. Crime scene technical find

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Speaker 1: shredded pieces of it in the suv, but apparently remove

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Speaker 1: them before photographing it. No tart pieces are visible in

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Speaker 1: official images. Conclusions the Forerunner is not wiped clean. Given

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Speaker 1: the circumstances, it's not at all surprising that crime scene

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Speaker 1: technicians didn't recover more fingerprints. In fact, it's impressive they

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Speaker 1: recovered even seven. Who do these seven belong to? I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but if any belonged to Robert, police would

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Speaker 1: be able to id them. His prints are on file

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Speaker 1: from his time in the Navy. Chapter three blood investigators

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Speaker 1: find no confirmed trace of blood in the Forerunner, remarkable

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Speaker 1: considering the violent nature of the murders. The killer cleaned

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Speaker 1: up perfectly before escaping. They do, however, get a single,

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Speaker 1: inconclusive luminol reaction on the front passenger floor mat. Luminol

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Speaker 1: is a chemical that glows blue in the presence of blood.

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Speaker 1: To decipher this, I call Karen elliet It. Karen is

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Speaker 1: a bloodstain expert formerly with the Utah Bureau of Forensic Services.

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Speaker 1: She's now a private consultant and volunteer for the nonprofit

361
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Speaker 1: Cold Case Foundation. The problem with luminol and bluestar, another

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Speaker 1: chemical reagent, is.

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Speaker 6: That they both react sometimes to things other.

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Speaker 1: Than blood, including copper, cobalt, iron, and some chemicals like bleach.

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Speaker 1: Would luminol react to animal blood? Yes, so Scott Steele

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Speaker 1: gets a luminol reaction on the floor mat, but that

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Speaker 1: doesn't tell us much. I send a photo of the

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Speaker 1: reaction to Karen.

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Speaker 6: It has very defined lines, and that leads me to

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Speaker 6: believe that if it were in fact blood, that it

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Speaker 6: might have been transferred from potentially a weapon or some

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Speaker 6: kind of an item that was transferred. The lines are

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Speaker 6: very very defined. It does not look like a drop

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Speaker 6: of blood. It looks like almost like a transfer. But

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Speaker 6: in addition, it could be just some kind of a

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Speaker 6: metal shaving or something that transfer off of a piece

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Speaker 6: of metal that would have caused that kind of a

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Speaker 6: defined line there or defined shape.

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Speaker 1: If the match still exists today, Karen says there.

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Speaker 6: Might be a potential for DNA conclusion.

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Speaker 1: We don't know what caused the aluminal reaction human blood,

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Speaker 1: animal blood, metal, bleach, but modern testing could tell us more.

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Speaker 1: Chapter four DNA, a hat, a cigarette, butt, a shoe.

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Speaker 1: Investigators recover DNA from all three. The hat, specifically the

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Speaker 1: Oakland Raiders ball cap, Robert Fisher wore the night of

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Speaker 1: April ninth, two thousand and one. Police find it in

387
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Speaker 1: Mary's for runner. They pull from it a partial DNA

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00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: profile that appears to match Robert the cigarette butt. Robert

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00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: doesn't smoke cigarettes. He chews tobacco. I don't know where

390
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,479
Speaker 1: police find the cigarette butt, but they recover from it

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Speaker 1: a complete DNA profile that belongs to an unknown male.

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Speaker 1: The shoe Police retrieve a pair of white rebox sneakers

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Speaker 1: from Roberts worklocker at the Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix.

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Speaker 1: They collect DNA from a heel and a blood stain.

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Speaker 1: The heel DNA is a mix from an unknown female

396
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Speaker 1: and an unknown male. It doesn't tell us anything. It

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00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 1: could have come from anyone doctors, nurses, patients. The blood stain, though,

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Speaker 1: is intriguing. I decide to fly to New York City

399
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Speaker 1: to consult Lisa Desire. You might recognize the name Desire

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00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 1: in season two Missing on nine to eleven. We interviewed

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00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 1: Mark Desire with the New York City Office of the

402
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner or OCME. Lisa Desire Mark Desire. I

403
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Speaker 1: know people are going to wonder, are you guys related.

404
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's my brother, lies my much older brother.

405
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,160
Speaker 8: I no, we are married.

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Speaker 1: The desires are perhaps America's most dynamic DNA duo. A

407
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: brilliant wife, a brilliant husband, kind, empathetic, hilarious, somewhat make

408
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 1: a sitcom. Weird things come out of our mouth where

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Speaker 1: it's like blood seam and saliva just roll right off

410
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 1: of our tongue, which is bizarre for other people, and

411
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: often it happens at dinner, So try not to in

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Speaker 1: front of the kids.

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Speaker 8: But that's a different story.

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Speaker 1: Lisa used to work for the OCME. She now runs

415
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,479
Speaker 1: a company called Prime Suspect. I asked her to review

416
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 1: Fisher case files, including DNA records. Here's what's weird about

417
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Speaker 1: the blood stain on the shoe.

418
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 3: Whoever left this?

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00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 1: If this is from a single female, looks like that

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00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: single female could be a close relative of Jan Howell's.

421
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: Jan Howell is Robert Fisher's mom. Conclusions One, the ballcap

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00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 1: DNA tells us nothing. It likely belongs to Robert. Two

423
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: the cigarette DNA gives us a complete profile of an

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00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 1: unknown male, which could theoretically be run through CODIS, the

425
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: National DNA database. Three blood on a sneaker in Robert's

426
00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: worklocker apparently belongs to a close female relative, someone related

427
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 1: to his mom, but not his dad. I don't know

428
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 1: what to make of this. Maybe it's important, maybe not.

429
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: It could be something as simple as a lab error.

430
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: If accurate, though, why did Robert have a shoe with

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00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: a relative's blood in his locker? I raise the issue

432
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: with law enforcement, but they don't seem to think it's relevant. However,

433
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: one investigator tells me that police were highly suspicious that

434
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: someone went into Robert's worklocker after the murders, but before

435
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: they obtained a search warrant. Chapter five Feces and a tissue.

436
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 1: A scott Stale detective sees a pile of excrement and

437
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: a piece of tissue in the woods just west of

438
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 1: Mary's forerunner. It's unclear if either is collected for testing.

439
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: Chapter six unknown fibers. Police locate numerous dark fibers in

440
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 1: the forerunner. It's unclear what they are or where they

441
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 1: came from. They still haven't been identified. Chapter seven the

442
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 1: keys In the rubble of the house, investigators find two

443
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 1: keys to a safety deposit box. It's unclear if the

444
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: Fishers had a safety deposit box at the time of

445
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: the murders, and if they did, whether or not it

446
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 1: was searched. Chapter eight security footage tracing the Fisher's final steps.

447
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: There are no security cameras at Supi Middle School, Scottsdale

448
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: Baptist Church, or popular outdoor outfitters. No neighbors have them either.

449
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: The Mayo Clinic does, but police apparently never obtained the footage.

450
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: Chapter nine. The cell phone and the pager. At least

451
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,719
Speaker 1: one of the Fishers has a cell phone, probably Robert.

452
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: It powers down at one thirty am on April tenth,

453
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: two thousand and one, around the time of the murders,

454
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: and never turns back on. It isn't found at the house,

455
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: though the fire could have destroyed it. Quest Cellular, a

456
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: now defunct company, can't tell police where it last pinged

457
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: at the time that information was stored for only twenty

458
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: four hours. Robert also apparently has a work pager. That's

459
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: all I know. Chapter ten electronic mail. Sometime between the

460
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: late nineties and two thousand and one, the Fishers bought

461
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: a computer. They apparently shared one personal email address, az

462
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 1: Fischer four at aol dot com. Mary and Brittany used it,

463
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: but Bobby didn't, and neither did Robert. Police find nothing

464
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: of note on the AOL account on Robert's work account,

465
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: though they find emails between Robert and quote previously unknown females.

466
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if these names panned out into any

467
00:25:32,080 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: actionable leads. Chapter eleven, the fire. I'm going to divide

468
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 1: this into four segments. The accelerant, the trigger, the timeline,

469
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: and the gunshots. The official story is that someone disconnected

470
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: a gas line from a furnace Dow's the house and

471
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: liquid accelerant, set a delayed trigger, and a few hours

472
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: later boom. In search of a fire guru, I turned.

473
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 7: To Matthew Reaganton.

474
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: Matt had a twenty two year career with ATF, mostly

475
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh, but also on the bureau's National Response Team.

476
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 7: I began my career as an ATF agent on August

477
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 7: the twenty seventh, two thousand and one, two weeks before

478
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 7: nine to eleven. When nine to eleven happened, I was

479
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 7: here in Pittsburgh and my office was tasked with going

480
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 7: to the crash site in Shanksville to assist the FBI

481
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 7: and the scene investigation.

482
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: He's now an assistant professor with Duquane University's Forensic Science

483
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: and Law Master's program. I give him Fisher case files

484
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: and ask for his opinion.

485
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 7: One of the compelling pieces of evidence was that gasline.

486
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 7: You had evidence of an intentionally disconnected gas line, and

487
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 7: you had an explosion, and you had a large fire.

488
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 7: Those are data points you can't ignore when you start

489
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 7: considering other accidental causes.

490
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 9: To the fire.

491
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: Matt's saying, this was clearly a deliberate act, not a

492
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: freak accident. But still it's good to triple check everything

493
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: to doubt yourself.

494
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 7: If you really organize your investigation and your hypothesis testing

495
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 7: around disproving your own hypothesis. I have three dead bodies

496
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 7: with their throats cut, I have an intentionally disconnected gas line.

497
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 7: I have an explosion. Wow, there's all this really overwhelming

498
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 7: data to show that a crime happened here. You're on

499
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 7: solid ground if you do everything you can to disprove that,

500
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 7: to find an accidental cause, to give the benefit of

501
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 7: the doubt to the other side.

502
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: I completely agree. If there are holes in the narrative,

503
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: you want to find them now, not at trial. In

504
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: this case, no one disputes that the gas line was

505
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: purposely disconnected and the fire intentionally triggered still bill, it's

506
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: vital to dig deeper the accelerant. This is the most

507
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: critical and contentious detail. Police and the media have said

508
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: repeatedly that there were quote poor patterns pour patterns in

509
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: the Fisher house, that someone spread liquid accelerant to help

510
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: fuel the fire. When you look at photos of charred

511
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: floors and diagrams of damage, this makes intuitive sense. If true,

512
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: it would be a key piece of evidence indicating advanced planning.

513
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: The poor patterns cover almost half the interior of the house.

514
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: That's a ton of accelerant. But arsen dogs and lab

515
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: testing fail to find any evidence of hydrocarbon fuels like gasoline. Instead,

516
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: investigators speculate that Fisher used clean burning alcohol he stole

517
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: from work, proving premeditation. The problem is they're basing this

518
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: again on poor patterns, outdated junk science. Many things can

519
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: cause burn or poor patterns on floors.

520
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 7: One example, we're in a room right now with carpet

521
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 7: and fairly new carpet. But let's say this carpet had

522
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 7: been installed for the last twenty years, and the area

523
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 7: where people walked most often were right in the middle

524
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 7: of this area to the door and back to the

525
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 7: couch and back and wear patterns, so you have differences

526
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 7: in the carpeting and the padding below it. Wear patterns

527
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 7: in a fire might cause patterns that could be mistaken

528
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 7: for poor patterns.

529
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: What about the theory that Fisher used alcohol as an accelerant.

530
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 7: If you've ever put any sort of rubbing alcohol in

531
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 7: a different area and try to light it, it burns

532
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 7: off really quickly. The thing about petroleum based fuels is

533
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 7: that they have sustained burning, and that's important for the

534
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 7: development of a fire because it gets other fuels involved,

535
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 7: it continues to burn, and then there's a certain point

536
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 7: in the development of a fire where it doesn't matter

537
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 7: that there is or was accelerant there, because all the

538
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 7: fuels in the room, the couches, the clothes, the desks,

539
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 7: anything that's plastic is now fully going and that's what's

540
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 7: driving the fire.

541
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: For a second opinion, I tracked down David Smith. Not

542
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: only is David a Certified Fire Investigator or CFI, but

543
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: he's the CFI who investigated the Fisher fire on site

544
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: for both the gas company and the Scottsdale Police Department. David,

545
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: did you see any indication liquid accelerant was used?

546
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: I saw zero evidence of that.

547
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: What about quote poor patterns?

548
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 4: The poor patterns were caused by vent elesh. These patternsers

549
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 4: sitting on the floor are natural and result from air

550
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 4: movement carrying hot gases and not from something on the floor. Often,

551
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 4: more inexperienced fire investigators find poor patterns in quotes at

552
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 4: doorways and under windows and things like this. And at

553
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 4: the doorways they were always talking about, well, obviously they

554
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 4: were pouring gasoline and walked out of the door backwards,

555
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 4: lge ended around and aluminum threshold is melted, so only

556
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 4: a gasoline can do that. So what happens is we

557
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 4: have a well involved fire taking place, and we all

558
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 4: know that heat rises and heat will typically hit an

559
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 4: obstruction called a ceiling, and that obstruction then causes that

560
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 4: flame and heat to move laterally and then it finds

561
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: a place to escape, and that's a window or a doorway,

562
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 4: and so that hot gases escaping. Well, when that hot

563
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 4: gas is escaping, what does that fire need at that

564
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 4: particular point for growth, And that's oxygen. So it's pulling

565
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 4: oxygen in at the lower levels. So we're having air

566
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 4: movements and we're having hot gases that are circulating and

567
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 4: so that's where we're getting these patterns. Now, you mentioned

568
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 4: walking and things like that. Absolutely, I had numerous examples

569
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 4: of that. I had a very large fire in a

570
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 4: tower type building in law offices, and there were poor

571
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 4: patterns down all the hallways, and it was quite disturbing

572
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 4: because they knew, under the circumstances we did not have

573
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 4: a nite of a liquid, but we have well defined

574
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 4: in quotes or patterns down those hallways and so forth.

575
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 4: And so I got the building people, because they were

576
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 4: very cooperative as one could imagine, I got them to

577
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 4: go to the next suite on the next floor down

578
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 4: and pull up the carpet, and there they were the

579
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 4: same identical patterns were already on that floor from the

580
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 4: foam rubber cut foam rubber pad that had been breaking

581
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: away and that tiny particles being pushed down into the concrete,

582
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 4: which is quite porous. We don't think of it that way,

583
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 4: but it's quite porous. And so when we then had

584
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 4: that and then fire, those particles burn up and cause

585
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 4: those patterns. And so the four patterns are typically right

586
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 4: down the center where people walk and.

587
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 8: Not on the sides.

588
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: So you didn't see any indication that there was a

589
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: liquid accelerant used in the Fisher fire.

590
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: No, and they did bring a dog in and that

591
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 4: dog failed to alert.

592
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: David conveys his findings to law enforcement.

593
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 4: I never argued with Scottsdale about this because that wasn't

594
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 4: my place. But there was no reason to suspect ignitable

595
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 4: liquids in this home.

596
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: David is the most qualified person on the planet to

597
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: comment on the Fisher fire. Not only did he investigate

598
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: it on site for the gas company and the police,

599
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: but he also helped write NFPA nine twenty one, the

600
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: Fire Investigation Bible. He's even a former cop who began

601
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: his career in Tucson in nineteen sixty eight. If you

602
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: listen to season one, Missican Alaska, you might be muttering

603
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: Tucson nineteen sixty eight. Jerry Paisley.

604
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 4: Jerry Paisley is a person that I had arrested for hamsaid,

605
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 4: you arrested Paisley. Yeah, and Paisley was convicted of on side.

606
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 9: Wow.

607
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: So David has direct ties to two of our three seasons. David,

608
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm granting you honored status in the Missing Cinematic Universe.

609
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: The Trigger investigators never determined definitively what triggered the explosion,

610
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: but the likeliest culprit is a candle or candles. They

611
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: find the remains of at least three in the house,

612
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: one in Britney's bedroom and two in the hall. They

613
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: also find a burnt firecracker in the master bedroom. This

614
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: is abnormal because again Robert was a neat freak. Even

615
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: more bizarre, they locate some kind of quote device in

616
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: a metal trash can in Britney's room, a battery attached

617
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: to wire and metal foil. The timeline April ninth, ten

618
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: forty two pm. Roberts at the atm April tenth, eight

619
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 1: forty two am. The house explodes, so Robert flees sometime

620
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: in the intervening ten hours. That's the old narrative, but

621
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: we located two new witnesses, Peter, the neighbor and Bud Wolf,

622
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: the newspaper delivery man who tightened the t timeline dramatically.

623
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: Peter sees both fisher vehicles at three thirty AM. Bud

624
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: sees both vehicles at five thirty but Mary's suv is

625
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: gone by seven thirty. Civil Twilight begins at five thirty seven,

626
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: meaning there's light in the sky and the sun rises

627
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: at six zh three. So my best guess is that

628
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 1: Robert flees between five thirty and six am. What can

629
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: forensics tell us about the timeline? Can we estimate, for example,

630
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: how long it takes gas to fill the house before

631
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 1: it explodes? Here again is David Smith.

632
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 4: My best recollection is three hours.

633
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: David's estimate based on science, fits my theory based on

634
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: witness statements, the rising sun and common sense. The gunshots

635
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: the morning of the fire. Two men who live near

636
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: the Fishers, but on different streets a short distance away.

637
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: Here's something that remains unexplained to this day. Their names

638
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: are Timothy Kinney and Michael Kakuza. They speak to a

639
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: Scottsdale police officer less than twelve hours after the housees.

640
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: Here's the recreation of a police memo I obtained.

641
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 9: Between zero eight thirty and zero nine hundred hours. This morning,

642
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 9: he Timothy Kenney, was sitting on his back porch, which

643
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 9: faces south, when he heard two gunshots coming from southeast

644
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 9: of his residence. There were approximately two to three seconds

645
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 9: apart from each other, and they sounded like a nine

646
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 9: millimeter or three fifty seven magnum. Kenny knows weapons, as

647
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 9: he is a former Maricopa County Sheriff's deputy. Approximately ten

648
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 9: minutes later, he heard a loud explosion coming from the

649
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 9: same area. The explosion was loud enough to shake the

650
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 9: ground and vibrate the windows. He looked to the southeast

651
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 9: and saw smoke and a helicopter was hovering in the area.

652
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 9: He cannot narrow the time of the gunshots down any further,

653
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 9: and he did not call the police this morning because

654
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 9: he heard sirens and figure that neighbors would have already called.

655
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 9: It was not until he saw the news coverage this

656
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 9: afternoon that he decided to call the police.

657
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: Next Michael Cakuza.

658
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 9: At zero eight fifteen hours this morning, his clock chimed,

659
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 9: indicating that it was a quarter past the hour. He

660
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 9: realized he was late for work, so he walked out

661
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 9: outside to his car. He then heard two gunshots, approximately

662
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 9: three to four seconds apart from each other. He was

663
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 9: standing under his car port, so he is not sure

664
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 9: which direction they came from, but they sounded like a

665
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 9: very large caliber weapon, such as a forty four magnum

666
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 9: or a shotgun. He then got into his car and

667
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 9: went to work. He did not hear anything after that.

668
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 9: He called the police after seeing the evening news about

669
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 9: the explosion.

670
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: Kenny lives three hundred and sixty feet from the Fishers,

671
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: one street over. Kakuza lives five hundred and thirty feet

672
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: from the Fishers, on a different street in a different direction.

673
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: Both men hear two loud gunshots, Kenny around eight Thirtykkuza

674
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: sometime after eight fifteen. Both say the gunshots came from

675
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: the direction of the Fisher House about ten to twenty

676
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: minutes before the explosion. Both speak to police less than

677
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 1: twelve hours after the house blew up. Their memories are fresh,

678
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: their stories consistent. So what's the deal here? This was

679
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: a quiet Tuesday morning in a safe suburb. Gunshots were,

680
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: to say the least, unusual. There were no other crimes

681
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: reported in the area at that time. It's unlikely a

682
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: neighbor was firing in the air and no one was hunting.

683
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: Maybe they heard not gunshots, but I don't know, firecrackers.

684
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: It's possible, I guess, But Kinny is a former cop,

685
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: not a novice, so gunshots. Maybe a fire was already

686
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: burning at the Fisher House and set off exactly two bullets.

687
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: I doubt it. The explosion and fire were instantaneous. As

688
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: soon as something ignited, the gas boomed. Finally, if you're

689
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: wondering whether or not they heard someone shoot Mary, that's

690
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: also unlikely. Mary was shot only once with a quieter,

691
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 1: smaller caliber bullet. Robert was already gone, and by all indications,

692
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: Mary had been dead for hours. Conclusions One, someone disconnected

693
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: a gas line and set up something, likely a candle,

694
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: to trigger an explosion. Two, there's no proof liquid accelerant

695
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: was used. Three. David Smith, the fire investigator, estimates that

696
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 1: the Fisher house filled with gas for about three hours

697
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 1: before it exploded, meaning someone disconnected the gas line around

698
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: five forty two am, which lines up with my separate

699
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: estimate that Fisher fled between five thirty and six am.

700
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 2: Four.

701
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: The gunshots remain unexplained, as does the battery device in

702
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: Brittany's trash can and the burnt firecracker in the master bedroom.

703
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: Now there's one final question, why, if you're Robert Fisher,

704
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,959
Speaker 1: why rig the house to explode? Police say Fisher wanted

705
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: to destroy evidence, but evidence of what. Look at his

706
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: job history, He handled fuel for the US Navy, was

707
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: a firefighter and EMT, and worked as a medical technician

708
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: for the Mayo Clinic hospital in Phoenix. I doubt he

709
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: was stupid enough to believe the fire would erase all

710
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,479
Speaker 1: evidence of the murders, so he could just waltzon later

711
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: and say, by golly g what happened here. Also, had

712
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: the house not exploded, he could have bought himself more time,

713
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: maybe four to twelve hours, a bigger leap on law enforcement.

714
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: So why blow it up? You could say, well, maybe

715
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: he wasn't thinking rationally. Perhaps, but that would mean he

716
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: pulled off a near perfect crime in the throes of irrationality.

717
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: If you like this show, please download our first two seasons,

718
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,280
Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates,

719
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: visit meon thirty three dot com or follow me on

720
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: Twitter at John waalzac Jo n Wa l Czak. Thanks

721
00:40:41,480 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: for listening. Chapter twelve. Alternate Suspects. Working on this story,

722
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: I heard wild theories about who could have killed the Fishers,

723
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: if not Robert, the most prevalent is perhaps a drug cartel.

724
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: I get why this makes sense slit throats and explosion.

725
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: It's dramatic, something out of Breaking Bad. But Robert is

726
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: no Walter White. He seems to have been addicted to painkillers,

727
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: but otherwise, there's no evidence he used or sold illegal drugs.

728
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: I promise you I did seriously consider other suspects, but

729
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: I immediately rolled them out with one exception, the nosy neighbor,

730
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: her husband and their adult son. When I ask everyone

731
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: if the Fishers had enemies, they all say the same thing, no,

732
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: except the next door neighbors. The nosy neighbor is the

733
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: woman who heard Robert and Mary fighting the Knight of

734
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: the murders. She and Robert had a long running feud.

735
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: To give you an idea of their dynamic, one time,

736
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: while spraying his house with a hose, he got water

737
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: on her house and she called the police. She and

738
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: her family hated Robert and he them. They saw him

739
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: as an arrogant jerk, and to their credit, he was

740
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: By the way, why am I using the nosy neighbor nickname? One,

741
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 1: I'm hiding her identity. Two she said she read personal

742
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,959
Speaker 1: notes and diaries found in the Fisher's trash. Here's why

743
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: the nosy neighbor, her husband, and their adult son raised

744
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: red flags. One motive there was bad blood. Two opportunity

745
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: they lived next door. Three the husband's profession. He was

746
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,479
Speaker 1: an electrical engineer. In an online memorial after he died

747
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, a friend wrote that on a trip

748
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: they took years earlier, the electrical engineer quote brought a

749
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: home built battery operated device that made me feel like

750
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 1: James Bond. Reading this, I thought of the Fisher fire

751
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: and the battery device found in Britney's trash can. The

752
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: electrical engineer even filed a patent for a disconnect unit

753
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: for mechanical and electrical systems, so he was clearly smart.

754
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: He was home when the Fisher house exploded, and he

755
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: immediately told police that Robert probably died by suicide, an

756
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: odd thing to say when the likely explanation at that

757
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: moment before the bodies were found would have been an

758
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: accidental gas explosion. For the odd son, the nosy neighbor's

759
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: son was in his early thirties, and two thousand and

760
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: one years later he played a key role in the case.

761
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: He traveled to Canada to help idea man police thought

762
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: might be Robert Fisher. He swore it was Fisher. Police

763
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: took the man's fingerprints it was not Fisher. So yes,

764
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: these three, the nosy neighbor, the electrical engineer, and the

765
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: odd son raised red flags. I tried to interview the

766
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: nosy neighbor, but she never responded to letters, emails, or

767
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: phone calls, and she didn't answer the door when I

768
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: twice visited her house. I also tried to interview the

769
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: odd son. He sent me three emails with some bombshell information.

770
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: You're going to hear them now, with occasional bleeps. I'm

771
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: redacting personal information and a few things I don't want

772
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: to share just yet, but I will in later episodes.

773
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: Email number one, I ask the odds Son for an interview.

774
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: His response, I.

775
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 10: Am not interested in speaking about.

776
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 1: Him, Robert Fisher, or even.

777
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 10: Giving any future mental bandwidth to him. I prefer to

778
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 10: move on from anything related to that. Good luck.

779
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: Email number two, I ask the odds son if he

780
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: was at his parents' house on April ninth or April tenth,

781
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 1: two thousand and one.

782
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 10: His response, not sure what you want to know. I

783
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,959
Speaker 10: worked and lived nearby and saw my folks a lot,

784
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 10: especially when that went down. They the Fishers, more specifically,

785
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 10: she screamed at him daily. He never really yelled. What

786
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 10: many consider a one off relationship fight was their day

787
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 10: to day. That crap went on for like fourteen years.

788
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 10: Never once did you see their kids smile or be kids.

789
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 10: The day they moved in, I met him first. I

790
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 10: actually told mom and dad we needed to move. He

791
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 10: was crazy and would explode. Someday. Mom and dad saw

792
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 10: more than they stopped live next door. Dad died in

793
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 10: twenty sixteen. Mom is, we don't really speak much these days.

794
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,919
Speaker 10: Hearing things they saw secondhand not ideal. I would rather

795
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 10: not think about that guy all the.

796
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: Best Email number three, I respond quote when you say

797
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 1: they screamed at him, who do you mean by they

798
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: Mary screaming at Robert? Who else screamed at Robert? What

799
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: made you think from day one, literally the first day,

800
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: that Robert was crazy and would explode? Were you at

801
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: your parents' house on April ninth, two thousand and one

802
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 1: and the morning of April tenth, two thousand and one,

803
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: The only people anyone cited the Fishers as feuding with

804
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: was your family.

805
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:40,439
Speaker 4: Why.

806
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: I'd very much like to interview your mom, I reached out.

807
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 1: Do you think she'd speak to me? Thanks?

808
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 10: John, I will not respond again after this email. Mary

809
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 10: screamed at Robert. You could hear it clearly in the

810
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 10: house's next door and outside, calling him worthless, saying she

811
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,959
Speaker 10: could have done better over a decade of that crowd,

812
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 10: and the kids heard it their entire life growing up

813
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 10: like top of your lungs, screamed, he was slow, Our

814
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 10: interactions were bizarre. He was what today I would easily

815
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 10: call a trumper type. I was washing my car, listening

816
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 10: to the sex pistols. His first words to me were, boy,

817
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 10: that ain't country music. I responded, no, it's not. It

818
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 10: just got weirder from there. Who the fuck calls a

819
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 10: stranger boy, some redneck psycho, That's who. I don't remember much.

820
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 10: The day before it was a day like any other

821
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 10: to me. The day of and many days after that

822
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 10: neighborhood was a fucking media and curiosity seeker circus. It

823
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 10: was a pain in the ass to even get there

824
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 10: to see my parents. You had to show id that

825
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 10: you lived there to even access the cul de sac.

826
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 10: The cops had little control and were idiots to residents

827
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 10: and not listening to what they were telling the officers

828
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 10: and detectives. Ask my mom. She worked both days, came

829
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 10: home the night before and saw and Fisher fiddling with

830
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 10: the gas line into the house, heard the gun shot

831
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 10: that killed Mary. She was not home. The next day

832
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 10: at around eight am when the house blew up and

833
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 10: caught fire. Dad was home alone. Then day after she

834
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 10: saw there's much more talk to her if she will speak.

835
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 10: She planned on writing a book about it now that

836
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 10: she's retired. I don't know. We do not speak anymore

837
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 10: since Dad passed away, and the bullshit, criminals and thefts

838
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 10: and other stuff. Post his death, he Robert Fisher fucking

839
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 10: terrified pretty much everyone in that cul de sac save

840
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 10: his best friend down the street, the idiot. He speaks

841
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 10: to no one anymore. I don't know if he's still alive.

842
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 10: Fisher shot guns in his backyard until the police got involved.

843
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 10: In his early years, he shot guns with children down

844
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 10: the street. When the guy shot and waved around his

845
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 10: guns a lot. The cops were called on that house

846
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 10: many many times due to the fight over the years.

847
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 10: It wasn't the first time he made the local news.

848
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 10: Redneck motherfucker, mister America type whose go to method was

849
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 10: intimidation and guns in people's faces. He pulled guns on

850
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 10: neighbors and waved them in their face when people tried

851
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 10: to resolve problems with them. As a neighbor. The people

852
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 10: who lived there at the time were of a different generation.

853
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 10: They don't talk shit about crazy folk they live with,

854
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,439
Speaker 10: when he may have crazy friends and family too. They

855
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 10: back then, unlike today, and people with their echo chambers,

856
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 10: had to learn how to live together and get along.

857
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 10: Everyone in that cul de sac and nearby knew one

858
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 10: another well. It was a community that saw him as

859
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 10: whoa crazy. Most were concerned and very outraged by the

860
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 10: media mess and lies and bullshit from the parents and

861
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 10: reports on TV attempting to make up some other narrative

862
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 10: than the truth. Didn't want to get involved with that crap.

863
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 10: Tended to have an attitude. If you have nothing nice

864
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 10: to say, don't say it, as it may come back

865
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 10: to haunt you. I will not respond again about this,

866
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 10: and I do not give you permission to use my

867
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 10: name in anything you may quote from me that shows

868
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 10: up publicly. I despise talking about this or even thinking

869
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 10: about it, and will never respond to you again about

870
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 10: more questions.

871
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: And true to his word, I never hear from him again.

872
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 1: There's a lot to unpack here. The fights. The odd

873
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: Son said he and his parents repeatedly heard Mary and

874
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 1: Robert fighting. Two other neighbors told me the same thing. Peter,

875
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,479
Speaker 1: who lived on the cul de Sac from nineteen ninety

876
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: eight to two thousand and two, said everyone heard it.

877
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was loud. That was two houses away and.

878
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 4: I heard it.

879
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: Another neighbor, Paul, lived on the street from nineteen eighty

880
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: seven to ninety five. When you would hear these fights,

881
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,720
Speaker 1: how intense were they? Were they the kind of fights

882
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: that if you live, let's say in an apartment sometimes

883
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: to hear your neighbors arguing or were they pretty intense?

884
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 11: I mean at the level of the yelling. I would say, yes,

885
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 11: you got to be pretty upset to real take your

886
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 11: voice to that level. When they would be screaming at

887
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 11: each other, you could kind of feel like there was

888
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 11: some tension in the air. They were venting something, and

889
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 11: Bob was usually the one doing most of the screaming.

890
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 11: Mary would retort back or just kind of defend herself.

891
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 11: But again, you know, I never really wanted to like

892
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 11: hear about what they were talking about, but you could

893
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 11: definitely hear that there was some angry words being exchanged.

894
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: Well, at that point it's impossible to escape if you're

895
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 1: that close.

896
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 11: Yes, exactly.

897
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: You know.

898
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 1: I looked at Google maps before this and your house

899
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 1: was a little over one hundred feet from there.

900
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 11: And then it called a sext so it's like we're

901
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,479
Speaker 11: almost like facing each other.

902
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it takes a lot for that

903
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: kind of yelling to carry even if the windows were open,

904
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: I still think you have to project that's yeow, Like

905
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: that's still one hundred hundred and thirty feet yea, the

906
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: closest to get to your house.

907
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 11: Yeah.

908
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: Yeah the police. Neighbors say police were called to the

909
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: Fisher house multiple times, but the Scottscale Police Department can't

910
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: locate any record of the except one, which I'll discuss

911
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: in a later episode. The gunshot. The odd Son told

912
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: me his mom, the nosy neighbor, heard the gunshot that

913
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: killed Mary, a shocking claim. If true, why didn't she

914
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: call the police? If false, why would he say that?

915
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: The gas line? The odd Son said his mom saw

916
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 1: quote Fisher fiddling with the gas line into the house.

917
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 1: That's never been reported before. I found a similar allegation

918
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: and a police record I.

919
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 9: Obtained female resident from saw the adult male resident of

920
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 9: twenty two to twenty three North seventy fourth Place, Robert

921
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 9: Fisher on the afternoon of four to nine oh one,

922
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 9: he was kneeling near the bushes on the south side

923
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 9: of the residence and appeared to be placing a cord

924
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 9: near the base of the house.

925
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: So whether it was a gas line unlikely or a

926
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: cord likely, or the nosy neighbor allegedly saw Robert fiddling

927
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 1: with something in his yard the afternoon of April ninth.

928
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 1: My first question is, obviously what was he doing? My

929
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: second is when did she see this? Did Fisher go

930
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: home on his lunch break or was it after work?

931
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: When I ask investigators about the nosy neighbor, the electrical engineer,

932
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: and the odd son, the response I get is more

933
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: or less an eye roll and some version of they're

934
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: kind of crazy. But that doesn't mean we should ignore

935
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: their statements. In fact, police have repeatedly referenced one publicly

936
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: that the nosy neighbor heard Mary and Robert fighting on

937
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: April ninth. We either believe her or we don't. We

938
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: shouldn't cherry picks statements to suit a favored narrative. If

939
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: we do believe her, What the heck is going on here?

940
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: I try to avoid crazy rabbit holes, but this one

941
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: I had to go down. Did the odd son kill

942
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: the Fishers. Did his parents cover up the murders? I

943
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 1: know how insane this sounds, but given the facts, bad blood, opportunity,

944
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: the husband's profession, the odd son, I had to at

945
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: least consider it briefly. But I want to make this

946
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: emphatically clear. I found no evidence these neighbors were involved

947
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: in the murders or the explosion. Neither did the police.

948
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: They were never considered official suspects. Let me say it again,

949
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: I believe Robert Fisher killed his family. I believe his

950
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 1: actions were premeditated. Don't mistake my open mindedness for naivete.

951
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: While there's no forensic evidence proving Robert committed these crimes,

952
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: there's plenty of circumstantial evidence that would likely hold up

953
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: in court, and let's use common sense. The idea that

954
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: someone else got into the Fisher house to kill Mary,

955
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: Brittany and Bobby in their sleep is doubtful. There's no

956
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: evidence anyone broke into the house, and where would Robert

957
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: have been during all of this. The killer would have

958
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: had to take him out first, without waking his wife

959
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: and kids, because there is no way an innocent Robert

960
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 1: would let someone murder his family without fighting back. I

961
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: guess you could say a killer waited for him to leave,

962
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: killed his family, then ambushed him when he got home

963
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: on a tiny cul de sac. I don't think so. Also,

964
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: who would leave Robert's dog Blue alive other than Robert.

965
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 1: Robert probably put Blue in the backyard or a vehicle

966
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: during the murders. Blues barking didn't wake Mary or the kids,

967
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: and he had no blood on him when he was

968
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: found in the woods. If someone else killed the family,

969
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: Blue likely would have been in the house during the murders.

970
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,919
Speaker 1: So what then the killer gave him a shower? Consider too,

971
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 1: the ball cap Robert wore it at the ATM. Police

972
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,959
Speaker 1: found it in the Forerunner. Finally, pay attention to where

973
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: the killer abandoned the Forerunner. This was a spot Robert

974
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: Fisher knew well. In fact, he was supposed to go

975
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 1: camping there three days later. If you think anyone else

976
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: committed the murders, how would they have known to dump

977
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: the Forerunner at this exact spot. I could go on

978
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: and on, but honestly, it's a waste of time. I

979
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: report without fear or favor. If I thought anyone else

980
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: committed these crimes, I'd tell you what a twist, but

981
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: the likeliest culprit by far is Robert Fisher. Search for

982
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher and you're liable to find blues collar. So

983
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: we found Mary Fisher's Forerunner. It's still on the road,

984
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: it's still in Arizona, and we're about a half mile

985
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 1: away from its current address, which we have to track

986
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: down the person who owns it. Now, we're going to

987
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: leave that person a letter and just basically ask if

988
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 1: we could talk to them take a look at the Forerunner.

989
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: One of the things that we really want is a

990
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: copy of the key, which is kind of crazy, like, Hello,

991
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: I'm a stranger, I'm a journalist.

992
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 3: I would like a copy of your car key.

993
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: But it would mean that if a key was ever

994
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: found in the wilderness or with remains or something like that,

995
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: that you could match it up to see if it

996
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: fit the Forerunner key. Want to see if it has

997
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: the original owner's manual maintenance records A long shot, but

998
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: maybe there's like timestamped diagnostics data.

999
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 3: Swored on board. So there is a purpose for this.

1000
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: But I cannot imagine this man getting a letter from us,

1001
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: Like we're kind of vague. We don't specifically say hello,

1002
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: you have Mary Fisher's Forerunner. But okay, so we are

1003
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 1: point one mile away, I don't see Okay, it's not here,

1004
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 1: So somebody has it out.

1005
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 8: So I've seen it on Google. Okay, So left him

1006
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 8: the letter and we're off.

1007
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: We wait and wait, and never hear back. We do, however,

1008
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 1: establish a full chain of ownership. One Mary Fisher, two,

1009
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 1: Mary's sister Myrna three the current owner. After technicians processed

1010
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: the Forerunner in two thousand and one, they gave it

1011
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: back to Mary's family. Her sister sold it to the

1012
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 1: current owner in twenty eighteen. We try to reach him

1013
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: via letter and email to no avail. Our producer Chris

1014
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: then dials a long list of possible numbers. At one point,

1015
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,959
Speaker 1: an older woman answers the current owner's mother. She tells

1016
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: Chris that her son is friends with Mary's family. We

1017
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: didn't know that. We thought he was just some random guy.

1018
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: She says. Her son even visited the Fisher's cul de

1019
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: sac the day the house blew up to comfort grieving

1020
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: loved ones. The address we drove by where we left

1021
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 1: the letter is her house, she says, not his. The

1022
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: Forerunner is now in Tucson, not Scottsdale. She tells Chris

1023
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: she'll speak to her son and if he wants to call,

1024
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: he will. He never does. She also says, quote, the

1025
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: Lord's not done with Robert Fisher, and then she says

1026
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: this a few years ago, while changing tires on the Forerunner,

1027
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: her son and his wife found quote the dog's collar.

1028
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: They gave it to Mary's sister, Myrna, the dog's collar.

1029
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: There's no way I can confirm this yet, since we

1030
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 1: didn't hear back from the current owner or Mary's sister.

1031
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: But I believe they found blues collar. If true, that's

1032
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: a big deal. It means the police missed the caller

1033
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: while processing the Forerunner. It also means that all these

1034
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: years later, we might have found a new piece of

1035
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: physical evidence. Let's say that someone located a new piece

1036
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: of physical evidence in the car twenty two years later.

1037
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: Could it be tested at this point?

1038
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 10: Yeah?

1039
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Matt Steiner, the NYPD crime scene expert.

1040
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 5: In my career, there are tons of cases where we

1041
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 5: look back at old scenes and are still able to

1042
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 5: collect evidence.

1043
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: It's valuable.

1044
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 5: I had a case with my partner. We had a

1045
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 5: clandestine grave in a backyard discovered forty years later and

1046
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 5: still there was enough evidence there forty years later to

1047
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 5: solve that case. The company that created blue Star did

1048
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 5: a cool test where they went to Gettysburg and there's

1049
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 5: a I guess it's a house there, and in the

1050
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 5: attic of this house there's like a famous battle where

1051
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 5: sniper is killed in this attic, And they processed that

1052
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 5: area with blue Star hundreds of years later and still

1053
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 5: got a reaction. So it's powerful stuff. The variables are,

1054
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 5: what's the condition that's evidence been living in. Has it

1055
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 5: been stored properly? Has it been in direct exposure to

1056
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 5: sunlight and UV which would destroy DNA and fingerprints and

1057
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 5: everything else. Depends on the condition that it's been its

1058
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 5: location and the environment's been in for the last twenty years,

1059
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 5: But certainly possible.

1060
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: Let's say that this isn't theoretical. Let's say that I

1061
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: tracked down the forerunner and the current owners found the

1062
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 1: dog's collar hidden kind of in a wheel well for

1063
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. What do you think you could

1064
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: recover from that?

1065
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 10: Yeah?

1066
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 5: So, I mean, if it's been stored properly, you're talking

1067
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 5: DNA simply just from skin cells from whoever was handling

1068
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 5: it from the dog, plus hair and fiber evidence from

1069
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 5: things that touch the collar the dog, and other things

1070
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 5: that might have been contact with that collar. So yeah,

1071
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 5: that would be good. You know, if the tags are

1072
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 5: on it, maybe fingerprints on it. If it's a smooth,

1073
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 5: non porous surface, would be a good one for fingerprints.

1074
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 5: So there's a lot of stuff you could do with it.

1075
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: For a second opinion, I turn again to Karen Elliott.

1076
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: If you're looking at a dog collar that fell off

1077
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: eye into a wheel well or something, or where the

1078
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: spare tire is and almost twenty years later it's recovered,

1079
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: what kind of testing could be done? What could we

1080
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: in theory learn from that because it would have been

1081
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: pretty protected. Could we test for blood for DNA? What

1082
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: else could we do with that collar?

1083
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 6: Yes to all of that DNA for sure. I think

1084
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 6: that would be a really good surface because there's nooks

1085
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 6: and cranies on a collar, and especially with someone who

1086
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 6: is under the probably the kind of stress that Robert

1087
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 6: would have been under at the time probably left a

1088
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 6: ton of DNA on that collar. If he touched the

1089
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 6: dog during that time. His DNA on that collar wouldn't

1090
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 6: mean a whole lot because it's his dog. Her blood

1091
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 6: on the collar would be huge. And yes, since it's

1092
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 6: been out of the element, since it's been protected, there's

1093
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 6: a really good possibility that you could find blood on that.

1094
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: The question that I have, and I know anyone listening

1095
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,479
Speaker 1: to this is going to have, is even twenty plus

1096
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: years later.

1097
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 6: Yes, I've worked cases that were fifty years old that

1098
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 6: we actually used a blood enhancement chemical on and were

1099
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 6: able to recover bloodstains that were that old.

1100
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: Finding Robert or Mary's DNA would mean nothing. Blue was

1101
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: their dog, but finding Robert or Mary's blood or DNA

1102
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: from say an accomplice, could be critical evidence. We covered

1103
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 1: a lot in this episode. Here's the bottom line. There's

1104
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 1: no forensic evidence proving Robert Fisher committed these crimes, but

1105
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: he is by far the likeliest suspect. Here are the

1106
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: myths we busted. That the killer used extreme force when

1107
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: slitting Mary, Brittany and Bobby's throats, that Mary's fore runner

1108
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: was wiped clean, that the killer used liquid accelerant to

1109
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: help burn down the house. And here are the key

1110
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: questions we raised. Which caliber bullet was used to shoot

1111
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: Mary A twenty five as indicated in a police report

1112
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 1: or a thirty eight, matching Robert's missing revolver. Who do

1113
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: the seven fingerprints found in the fore Run belong to?

1114
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: If they're still unidentified, law enforcement should run them again.

1115
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: What caused the luminol reaction on the Forerunner floor mat

1116
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 1: Police should re examine it. If they find blood, they

1117
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: should try to recover a DNA profile, then run it

1118
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: through codis. Where was the cigarette butt found and whose

1119
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: DNA is on it? Police should run it through codis.

1120
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 1: Whose blood is on the sneaker found in Robert's war clocker.

1121
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: If it belongs to a close female relative, who exactly

1122
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: and why is it there? Did police recover the feces

1123
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 1: and tissue near the Forerunner? If so, they should examine

1124
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: both for clues like DNA. What are the unknown dark

1125
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 1: fibers recovered from the Forerunner? Police should consult outside experts

1126
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: and reanalyze them using new technology. Did the Fishers have

1127
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: a safety deposit box? If so, did the police search it?

1128
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: If not, what happened to it? Do police still have

1129
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 1: the Fisher's computer? If so, what shape is it in?

1130
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: Can they reanalyze the hard drive using new technology? What's

1131
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: the deal with the burnt firecracker in the master bedroom

1132
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: and the battery device in Britney's trash can. What were

1133
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: the quote gunshots two neighbors heard ten to twenty minutes

1134
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: before the house exploded. Police should consult outside experts. What

1135
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: did the nosy neighbors see the afternoon of April ninth

1136
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: when she spotted Robert fiddling with something in front of

1137
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 1: his house. Did the nosy neighbor actually hear the gunshot

1138
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: that killed Mary? If so, why didn't she call police?

1139
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: If not, why did her son say that? Finally, did

1140
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 1: the current owner of the Forerunner find blues collar? If so,

1141
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: law enforcement should retrieve and test it immediately. Next time,

1142
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 1: I'm missing in Arizona.

1143
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 7: He is alive.

1144
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: We know he was seen yesterday morning at eleven by

1145
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: the witness and that he's on the move. You can

1146
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 1: reach us by phone at one eight three three new

1147
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: tips that's one eight three three six three nine eight

1148
01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: four seven seven, by email at tips at iHeartMedia dot com,

1149
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: tips at iHeartMedia dot com, online at neon thirty three

1150
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: dot com, or on Twitter at John wallzac j O

1151
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: n w A. L Czak. Paul Duckan is our executive producer.

1152
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: Chris Brown is our supervising producer. Hannah Rose Snyder is

1153
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: our producer, Paul Gemperlin is our researcher, Ben Bollen is

1154
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: a consulting producer, and I'm Your host and executive producer

1155
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: John Wallzac Recreation is voiced by Ben Bollen and Rob Lamb.

1156
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Dave Wilkins. Cover art by Pam Peacock,

1157
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: Neon thirty three logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro

1158
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: song is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download the first

1159
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: two seasons of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing

1160
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 1: on nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give

1161
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 1: us a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a

1162
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: co production of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three