1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Gradials How Stuff Works. Welcome back 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nol. 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined with our super 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: producer Paul. Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: want you to know. This is in some ways a 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: sequel episode. It's a follow up to our previous episode 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: mk Ultra one oh one, in which we described exactly 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: what mk Ultra is. Equally as important, we describe what 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: it is not and how the public learned about it today. However, 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: we are looking beyond that twisted origin story. We're going 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: off the charted proven paths. We're going across the edges 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: of the map. We're exploring the conspiracies and allegations related 17 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: to mk Ultra in the modern day. Listeners, this episode 18 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: contains content that may be disturbing to some of us 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: in the audience, and that means you can turn back 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: now or walk with us just a bit further away 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: from the lights. I like that that's a twist on it, 22 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,199 Speaker 1: and I really like that it's true. As you know, Matt, 23 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: this is very much true in this episode. Let's I mean, 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: let's let's start off with something easy, something simple. What 25 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: what is m KA ultra For anyone who said, I 26 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: see im KA ultra one oh one in my podcast feed, 27 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: but forget that, I want two oh one one o two. Okay, Well, 28 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: I think to one is the right way to go. 29 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: That's I think that's the way Georgia state. Uh would 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: it would do it? So then that's my favor. Alma. Yeah. 31 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: So the first thing you have to do is not 32 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: think about mk ultra as one thing. It is not 33 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: one thing. It is a series of things, of projects, 34 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: of experimentations, of different experiments, of different groups of people 35 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: who are who are not necessarily working together. A lot 36 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: of times the aims were very similar, but you know, 37 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: you have different study groups essentially, and uh, it was 38 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: all about, really at the heart of it, trying to 39 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: find ways to influence human beings, influence their perception, their behavior, 40 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: or even get them to do some or take some 41 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: action that you want them to take. And um, from 42 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 1: all the official accounts of the program really didn't work 43 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: out that great. They found some interesting things that could 44 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 1: occur with drugs, with especially how drugs interact with each other. 45 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes if you get a really psychedelic trip and then uh, 46 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: influence somebody's mind down the road, or if you can 47 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: keep someone within a psychedelic trip for long enough. Interesting 48 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: things there. But uh, but here's here's the deal. Most 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: everything didn't work the way they wanted it to, right. 50 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: It turns out that the human brain was too complex 51 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: for the sort of technology and tactics that Uncle Sam 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: was applying in this case. They were famously inspired to 53 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: pursue this line of research due to fears that the 54 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: Soviet Union and the government of China were pursuing things 55 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: and already had a jump in this sort of behavioral modification. Uh. 56 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: Primarily when they saw a cardinal confessed to h cavalcade 57 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: of crimes that he clearly did not do back in 58 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: the fifties. I believe um, and what what they thought 59 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: was happening was not the case in that scenario. What 60 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: they thought was happening was that this guy had been 61 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: brainwashed completely and totally and believed these demonstrably false things. 62 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: But it turns out that the only thing that really 63 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: happened was Communist forces and security services just beat the 64 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,839 Speaker 1: ever loving snot out of this guy repeatedly and then 65 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, psychologically abused him. And he he later in 66 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: life said that he said there was no uh spooky 67 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: as spooky psychotronic stuff going on. But we do know that, 68 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: as you said, met some of these programs had limited success. 69 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: They learned new things that would be useful later. From 70 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: all official accounts, there are no Manchurian candidates, despite what 71 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: sir Han. Sirhan has claimed, and he is alive and 72 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: he is in jail. He maintains that he was brainwashed. Yeah, 73 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: he keeps trying. He kept trying. I think it's over right. 74 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: I think I don't know if he can go for 75 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: parole over parole again, it might be he might be done. 76 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: Maybe that's not true. That's what I feel like. I 77 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: remember hearing, let's put it in there anyway, and somebody 78 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: correct me. I love that. So now it seems like 79 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: if we if you that's the only information you have 80 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: about im Kultra, now you're in a state where it 81 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: seems as if this is an open and shut horrific 82 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: historical events but we're gonna shamal on it just a 83 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: little bit, because the problem with im Ka Ultra is this, 84 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: The c i A purged everything they could internally find 85 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: related to im Ka Ultra back in three under Director Helms. 86 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: When you say purged, we what are you talking about here? 87 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: We're talking about physically burning paperwork. The this was. This 88 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: only compounded the original problem, which was that they were 89 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: not keeping much paperwork to begin with. They didn't want 90 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: the trail. They wanted the minimum amount of stuff they 91 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: needed to have in order to keep their ducks in 92 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: a row, so they perished everything. In seventy three, the 93 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: public only found hard proof of the operation when a 94 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: rat Him of Information Act request turned up two thousand 95 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: documents that have been misfiled. Two thousand documents that we're 96 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: supposed to have also been absolutely utterly destroyed. So this 97 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: means that and probably and probably in thirty nineteen, if 98 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: people still care about it, we will not know the 99 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: full extent of what the CIA was up to. We 100 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: don't know all the experiments they conducted. We have some hints, 101 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: but it's possible that we never will learn. As we 102 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: noted previously, we have officially entered the realm of deathbed confessions. 103 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: What do we mean by this? We mean that the 104 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: only way the public will learn more about this program 105 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: will be if someone who was working with it firsthand 106 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: has a change of heart and confesses or or or 107 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: provides new information. Because there, you know, that's how a 108 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: deathbed confession works. You're about to go out. You wanna 109 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: meet the afterlife if such exists with a clean conscience. 110 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: And that is if that person even really truly understands 111 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: what they were doing or experimenting on, if they were 112 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: not just a tiny piece of a larger puzzle that 113 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: was the experiment, right, which is highly possible. That kind 114 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: of plausible deniability is built into a lot of these experiments. 115 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: Not think about a deathbed confession too, is like, it's 116 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: what better moment is there to be able to drop 117 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: a truth bomb where you don't have to be around 118 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: to deal with the aftermath or to fall out the 119 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 1: consequences directed at you. You know, unless you have kids. Wow, 120 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: that's true and grandkids true. It's also but it's also 121 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: strangely common for people to make fake deathbed confessions. Sometimes 122 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: that can be due to a deteriorating mental state and 123 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: someone really believes that there Jack the Ripper and you're like, 124 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: oh man, uncle Bill, you were born in ninety three. 125 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: The math doesn't check out, and they're like, no, it 126 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: was me. It's my dying wish that you tell the 127 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: world that truth and you just have to hold their hands. 128 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: That's it. That went dark. So so at this point, 129 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: as as we record this, there has not been any 130 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: large scale revelation related to him k Ultra since those 131 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: investigations back in the nineteen seventies when the senators famously 132 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: held up a heart attack gun in the halls of Congress, 133 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: and you can see this clip online, folks. It's it's 134 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: somewhat distressing the gun itself. I don't know if we 135 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: talked about this in a previous Did we talk about 136 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: this in a previous episode? We did? I believe we've 137 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: brought I think we brought this up and we went 138 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: over the control group where we talked some of this stuff. Yeah, 139 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: and then before that too it with DARPA, yes, yeah, 140 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: and assassination attempts. So it's pretty neat idea. It's a 141 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 1: gun that fires frozen darts of poison and they're so 142 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: small that they can go through your clothing. Without leaving 143 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: a mark. And if it works, if they successfully get 144 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: the shot off, the corpse will look as if it 145 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: died from a heart attack. Clever stuff. Can't mall piercing. Yeah, 146 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: I can't buy it in Walmart. Yeah, and don't mean 147 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: if it was available, do not buy that. Don't For 148 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: anyone who is listening and not in the United States, 149 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: one thing that would probably baffle you, or maybe not, 150 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: is that Walmart sells guns, which is, you know, that's 151 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: what thing we all accept as normal here. But if 152 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: you're from Sweden or something and you walk into a supermarket, 153 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't you be surprised? Probably? You know, Dick's Sporting Goods 154 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: is actually phasing out the sale of guns. I think 155 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: largely because I mean, I'm sure there was some political 156 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: reasons for doing it, but I think from what I heard, 157 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: it was becoming less and less profitable. That makes sense. Yeah, 158 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: and in a big box store like that, you know 159 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: what I mean. Usually you would go to a specialty 160 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: store to buy guns or a gun show. And they're 161 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: also most of them long rifles of some sort. That's right, 162 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: like a shotgun or hunting right, not not quite as 163 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: effective unless you're sniping and they no one sells the 164 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: heart attack gun that we know of. So all this 165 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: secrecy has led to an interesting situation. The strange and 166 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: strangely incomplete story of mk Ultra has become enshrined in 167 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 1: conspiracy folklore. It has been associated with multitudes of other theories, 168 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: and typically the gist of those theories will go the 169 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: U S public learned about m k Ultra. That is 170 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: the tip of the proverbial iceberg. There's much much more 171 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: beneath the surface, and if you buy my book you 172 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: will learn it. Which sounds a little bit cynical, but 173 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: that is honestly the way it goes, and it's it's 174 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: all based on a very valid and troubling question, what 175 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: else went on from the nineteen fifties through the nineteen seventies, 176 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: for other more, what if anything happened afterward? And we're 177 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: going to delve into that right after a quick word 178 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy, more or less. 179 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: Immediately after the reveal of m k Ultra, people in 180 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: the United States and abroad began raising allegations of continuing 181 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: related programs, and this quickly, quickly, quickly got very out 182 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: there in terms of the claims. The most infamous alleged 183 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: project related to m k Ultra is something called Project Monarch. Yes, 184 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: and this is this is one of the one of 185 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: the more out there things I would say that we're 186 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: going to discuss. There are some weird things we're going 187 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: to discuss today, but this is one of the feels 188 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: like it's out there because oh, here's a little spoiler alert. 189 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: It involves demons, it involves rituals, the cabala in mysticism, 190 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: some of our favorite things, multiple personalities, and or demonic possession. 191 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: So let's get into it. All of that though within 192 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: what's described as a systematic framework. So this is like 193 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: some serious like X files type stuff, and uh, it 194 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: involved some things, some rituals that could be described as 195 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: satanic in nature um, usually involving some form of cannibalism, 196 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: and performed with the intent of attaching a demon or 197 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, a pantheon, like a group of demons um 198 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: and in order to kind of create alternate versions of individuals, 199 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: as in the same way that you might through therapy 200 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: create an alternate version of a self that didn't experience 201 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: the trauma that caused you to have you know, psychological 202 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: problems right, This, this idea of intentionally creating alters or 203 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: alternate personalities isn't unique to Project Monarch. You've seen it 204 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: in works of fiction. It's in hereditary Agroably, it feels 205 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: a lot like a fictionalized version of a secret military 206 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: thing or a secret um projects like this, and and 207 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of cults also practice this 208 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: kind of disassociation. It's just yeah, it's just in a 209 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: different form, right. You don't have to use you don't 210 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 1: need to get demons involved, you don't need to get 211 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: the cabal involved. You just start dissociating somebody through manipulation. 212 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: Crowley also practice some stuff like this, and the Illuminatus trilogy, 213 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: which is a fantastic work, also depicts this. No, your 214 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: your description might sound weird to some of us listening, 215 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: but that is that is the case. The idea is 216 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: that um, this this occult stuff was either a theatrical 217 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: trapping or they were practicing magic to summon some sort 218 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: of extra dimensional entity and make people, typically children, minors, 219 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: into vessels for these creatures. That's a lot to take in, 220 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: you know. To to to phrase it simply, we'll get 221 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: back to some of the stuff. But to phrase it simply. 222 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: The people who believe in Project Monarch see it as 223 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: a subset of the earlier program Project Artichoke and its 224 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: successor mk Ultra. One of the most well known authors 225 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: on the subject of Project Monarch is a person named 226 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: Kathy O'Brien. You can find multiple people who claim that 227 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: they were somehow involved in this Monarch program, but Kathy 228 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: brian is one of the most prominent. She wrote a 229 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: book called The Transformation of America. Since this is an 230 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: audio show, I just want to make sure you get 231 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: the pun there. Trance as in hypnotic trance, and in 232 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: formation as in an organization or group. So in Transformation 233 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: of America, she claims she was a victim of Monarch. 234 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: She relates in the following way. She says she was 235 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: sexually abused as a child multiple occasions by various people, 236 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: starting with her father and then expanding to a network 237 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: of individuals who were connected with the underground world of 238 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: underage pornography. Y yeah, and then according to the story 239 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: she that's when she became a victim of Project Monarch. 240 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: She describes Monarch as a project that used trauma based 241 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: mind control that's in quotes there to create eight separate 242 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: distinct personalities within a single individual. This kind of makes 243 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: you think of almost the Manchurian candidate effect, where you've 244 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: got like a buried personality that can be summoned at will, 245 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: or not your will, but the will of your controller. Right. 246 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: Uh So, according to A. Brian, this is accomplished with 247 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: the help of some of these occult trappings and of 248 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: course a lot of theater of the mind. She claims, 249 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: for example, the George W. Bush used holograms for intimidation. 250 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: And this is a quote from Mary said. She said, 251 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: Bush apparently activated hologram of the lizard like alien, which 252 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: provided the illusion of Bush transforming, uh, like a chameleon 253 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: before my eyes. In retrospect, I understand that Bush had 254 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: been painstakingly careful and positioning our seats in order that 255 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: the holograms effectiveness be maximized. Mhm. So on the surface, 256 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: it sounds like somebody, um, who's making up a story 257 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: when you're listening to it with a skeptical mind. Uh, 258 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: It's it's difficult to not do that, I think, because 259 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: it sounds so out there, it sounds so fantastical. Um, 260 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: sit right there and watch me lizard real quick. Yeah, well, 261 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: I need to position your seat for watching. But but 262 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, um, I think that's what with these kinds 263 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: of things. It's difficult even listening to it, to to 264 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: put your mind in a place where you can think, well, 265 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: is that in any way possible or is there like, 266 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: what are the what are the possible explanations for this? 267 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: To have that belief that George W. Bush somehow is 268 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: using hologram technology to trick you or show you something, 269 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: uh of an extraterrestrial Yeah, and maybe Socratic method is 270 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: the one of the best ways to approach this, you know, 271 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: start with a question. Let's say, if that were true, 272 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: what set of circumstances would compel one of the most 273 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: powerful people in the world to do this. It sounds 274 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: like Dick Cheney didn't do anything. Oh, you know, I 275 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: imagine that he was involved. He seems like a guy 276 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: would be excited by holograms. Who wouldn't their neat Do 277 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: you guys hear that Roy Orbison and Buddy Holly are 278 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: doing a hologram tour? This is now a thing, like 279 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: it's really becoming a thing. Started with Tupac. Yeah, it 280 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: did start with Tupac, but now it's like whole package hologram. 281 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: I only bring it out because it used to be 282 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 1: something that was used to by the military. Uh, and 283 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: now it's you know, just for for funzies. Churches are 284 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: using that across the globe right now. The megachurches that 285 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: have a single person like Andy Stanley or somebody who's 286 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: giving a talk dollar yeah, and there he's being he 287 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: and they are being like turned into holograms essentially. And 288 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: churches I would have thought they would have made one 289 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: of Jesus price effect. It's touchy, that's a touch of one. 290 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: It's tough. I mean, imagine making a hologram of any 291 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: religious figure, a hologram of Buddha, hologram of muhammadmatic right, 292 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: you know that would be Project blue Beam yep, which 293 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: is which is a different show. The important part here 294 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: before we get to sidetracked with holograms, The important part 295 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: here is the timing of this, because the allegation then 296 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: is not just that prominent world leaders are resorting to 297 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: this technology to um to traumatize children. It's that this 298 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: technology existed in their circle before it existed anywhere else. 299 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: But the big question is why would someone do that? 300 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: And it doesn't stay in the U s. O'Brian paints 301 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: a global portrait of abuse. She claims that forces in Mexico, 302 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: the US, Europe, Saudi Arabia are all actively involved in 303 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: Monarch and its successors, its successor programs for the express 304 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: purpose of creating sex slaves and maintaining child abuse rings. 305 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: Several years ago, that would have sounded impossible. Several years ago, 306 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: it would have. O'Brien claims to have phenomenal photographic recall 307 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: of these events, despite previously suppressing them or having them 308 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: suppressed by shadowy government agents. Her recollections in her book 309 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: come overwhelmingly, almost entirely from what's called hypnotic regression. Hypnotic 310 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: regression is a as a process in which a hypnotist 311 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: sits with a person and takes them into a trance 312 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: state and guides them through reliving past experiences. The big 313 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: problem with hypnotic regression is the G word. You just said. 314 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: They're being guided guided there we go, yeah, right, because 315 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: you the ideas can be slightly influenced with us tiny 316 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: keyword or a tiny word that is thrown in during 317 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: the guidance process that then leads the you know, how 318 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: do you know if the person your subject. If it's 319 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: their imagination that's taking you down that path, or if 320 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: they're actually recalling an event that's taking them down that 321 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: path of recollection, is it recollection or fiction? And there's 322 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: no real way to tell right right there is the 323 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,479 Speaker 1: problem is that if you're putting an individual in a 324 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: state of enhanced suggestibility, then they're very open to guiding. 325 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: And this is not to say that the hypnotists in 326 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: question are purposely doing this. It's just very easy to 327 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: accidentally take someone in a weird in a weird direction. 328 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,239 Speaker 1: And you know, we know that men betrays us and 329 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: most of our memories are increasingly works of fiction as 330 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: we age. But that's let's leave let's leave O'Brien and 331 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: monarch there right now a second, yes, and let's just 332 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: go ahead and put forth right here that you may 333 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: see online accusations of a lot of pop stars, and 334 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: generally younger female pop stars, there are a lot of 335 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: accusations that they have been individually involved in monarch in 336 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,479 Speaker 1: some way. A lot of times you'll see allegations of 337 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: a music video like a Katy Perry music video or 338 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: um Britney Spears was a big one back in the 339 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: day of look at the symbology, Look at the symbols 340 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: happening in these videos. This this is Project Monarch like 341 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: them showing us without telling us in a way like 342 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: almost flaunting it. You'll see that a lot. Um. You'll 343 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: see when when a young pop star has a breakdown, 344 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: like a public breakdown, that Project Marnarch Monarchy gets brought 345 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: up a lot, especially especially when I'm recalling when Britney 346 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: Spears like shaved her head. Yes, exactly, leave Britney, Well, 347 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: that was a part of it. But but genuinely, that's 348 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: when you will see a lot of that stuff cropping 349 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: up UM as part of the trauma that was supposedly 350 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: given to her or that she experienced through Project Monarch. 351 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: Just putting that out there, and other people will say 352 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: that the world of um, the world of entertainment music 353 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: especially is already crooked and horrific and and just sad 354 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: and pathetic enough without needing to add in that other 355 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: the other problems. But it's true, and that's a very 356 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: good point. You can find numerous lists of people like 357 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: Amanda Bindes, Britney Spears, of who else tell us tell 358 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: us your favorites, right, Oh, Katy Perry as you said, 359 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: Margot Kidder. Margot Kidders, I don't know who that is. 360 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: She played Lois Lane in the Christopher Reeve Superman movies 361 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: and she was found like wandering make it, I believe 362 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: in other people's yards in Beverly Hills. Yeah, she had 363 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: like a like an episode. She she was not low 364 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: and she was not gang stalked, but other people have been. 365 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: This is this is something related to mk ultra that 366 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: you will hear a lot. Some of us listening now 367 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: have asked us in the past to cover gang stalking 368 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: and we can do an entire episode on it. So well, 369 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: we'll just give you the broad strokes here. Gang Stalking 370 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: is the idea that a person, for one reason or another, 371 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: will be surreptitiously monitored and followed in person by a 372 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: group of unidentified people. So imagine you wherever you're at. Now, 373 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: imagine that you get up, you walk outside, and there's 374 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: someone in the distance in the corner. They have a 375 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: green hat one and you see them, but you don't know. 376 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: You know, you might not be in a town where 377 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: people wave at strangers. So you just keep walking and 378 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,479 Speaker 1: go to a store. And while you're in the store, 379 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: let's say, you're feeling healthy, so you buy some juice 380 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: and some almonds, and then the person who rings you 381 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: up is looking at you weird. You look behind you 382 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: and there's someone in a green hat at the end 383 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: of Aisle three, pretending to shop, but just sort of 384 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: standing there, and you know they're pretending to shop, and 385 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: you know they're pretending to shop, and you leave walking back, 386 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: and as you're walking back, you see three other people, 387 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: possibly in green hats, possibly not uh, and they're all 388 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: just sort of standing around as if they're waiting for you. 389 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: One person is on the phone talking. You can't hear 390 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: what they're saying, but they are staring directly at you. 391 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: That's gang stalking. It's essentially the Truman Show. Right. If 392 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: you are Truman, it feels as though for the person 393 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: experiencing it, or who believing they're experiencing it, it it feels 394 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: like you are Truman, and it's a more malicious Truman show. Right. 395 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: So is this harassment is a paranoia? Is it good 396 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: old fashioned spycraft? All three of those answers, in at 397 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: least a few cases, are correct. You know what I mean? Yeah, 398 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: I mean, for for someone experiencing um, perhaps a short 399 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: term high paranoia situation or feeling like I can imagine this. 400 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: I think I've probably experienced like short term gang stalking 401 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: at the height of a time in my life when 402 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: I'm feeling unsure, or something where i just feel as 403 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: though everyone around me is out to get me, just 404 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: for a moment, you know what I mean. I think 405 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: we've all maybe experienced something like that where everything just 406 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: feels off um And there are a lot of people 407 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: out there who have experienced that before, and for perhaps 408 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: more deep sea to problems they've experienced that. But we 409 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: do know that that kind of surveillance on somebody, like 410 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: actual on the ground surveillance occurs, and it and it's 411 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: not that uncommon. It's not that uncommon. It's sloppy spycraft 412 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: because typically you would want your observer to be unnoticed. 413 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: But it also happens in other countries, especially authoritarian countries 414 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: or dictatorships. It will probably will probably phase out a 415 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: little bit as digital surveillance becomes overwhelmingly efficient. Yeah, at 416 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: this point, you could just get into somebody's cell phone 417 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: and then it could be on a table and you 418 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: got everything you need right right. And by the way, 419 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: we got a great email from our in essay. In 420 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: turn we did it was moving on. Congratulations and we'll 421 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: we'll go. Let's go to gang stocking in its own episode. 422 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: Let's make that an episode in the future. And in 423 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: the meantime, we'd like to hear your stories about gang stalking. 424 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: We'd like to uh know what you would like to 425 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: share with your fellow listeners. For now, it seems that 426 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: we have monarch as a as a thing that's universally 427 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: dismissed by a lot of the mainstream. We have gang stalking, 428 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: which is problematic, but we do know that mk ultra 429 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: is moving forward, at least in the legal system and 430 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: not here in the US. That's right, we have to 431 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: go to Canada for for a look into a class 432 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: action lawsuit. We're gonna do that right after another word 433 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, Oh Canada. So we had spoken in 434 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: m k Ultra one oh one about the two unsuccessful 435 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: lawsuits here in the States related to mk Ultra. In Canada, 436 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: there is a class action suit in in the works 437 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: now survivors and families the people who were affected by 438 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: M k Ultrum and the c I a mind control 439 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: program at a place called McGill University's Allen Memorial Institute 440 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: in Montreal are going to sue Quebec and the federal 441 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: governments both the USA and Canada because of what they 442 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: say had been done to them five decades ago. You 443 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: can follow this group on Facebook Survivors Allied against Government 444 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: Abuse UH. The acronym would be SAGA with two ways 445 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: at the beginning, and this includes victims and family members 446 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: of victims of Canadians who participated in brainwashing experiments under 447 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: the supervision of a man named Dr Ewan Cameron. He 448 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: was director of the psychiatric hospital from the forties, fifties 449 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: and sixties. He did something that would be familiar to 450 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: fans of the cont roll group. He conducted these experiments 451 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: that were called deep patterning or psychic driving. What they 452 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: essentially did, it's through a number of a number of techniques. 453 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: They would try to erase the patient's memories, which is 454 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: not an impossible thing to do, and then go a 455 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: step further an attempt to reprogram them with new thoughts. 456 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: One of the examples of this would include forcing someone 457 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: to listen to repetitive audio loop over and over and 458 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: over again, four hours and hours on end, while also 459 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: drugging them to keep them in a comatose or semi 460 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: comatose unconscious state. So this could last for as long 461 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: as three days. Just you're you're put under, You're you're 462 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: administered like the food and water you need to survive, 463 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: and the entire time, there's some tape saying you know, um, 464 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: probably in the doctor's voice or maybe in your own voice. Yeah, 465 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: when when it's like I can only trust Dr Frederick. 466 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: Dr Frederick wants me, well, certainly most effective in your voice, 467 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: I think, as the patient, error as the subject, because 468 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: then it becomes your own inner dialogue and you're and 469 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: you're in a state of sensory deprivation when you're put under. 470 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, so this is this is really weird, creepy stuff. 471 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: And if you want to an example of a fictionalized 472 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: version of it again, check out Control Group. It's available 473 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: right now, all episodes and season two is going to 474 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: be happening at some point. It's true. Yeah, it's a 475 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: creepy story. It's creepy story. The Canadian government gave Dr 476 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: Cameron roughly half a million dollars between nineteen fifty and 477 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five if we wanted to adjust for inflation 478 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: that's four million bucks US. They gave him four million 479 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: bucks and then the CIA also gave him money through 480 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: one of those front organizations that you mentioned our previous episode, Matt, 481 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology. That's great. 482 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: So are we for it or again it? Yea, we 483 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: are refer are refer mk ultra in general, the various projects, 484 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: various projects. But let's hear some arguments for and against. Okay, um, 485 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: let's let's start with Monarch. That sounds good, yes, yes, 486 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: So the first thing we should be very very clear 487 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: about when you say four four or against, we're saying 488 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: four or against them actually existing, the veracity of these claims. 489 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: We're not. We're not arguing that we support projects. I mean, 490 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: that's your position. Okay, Yeah, that's true, that's true. Absolutely, 491 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: it is a democracy. But no, it's exactly I mean, 492 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: this is it's a cliche, but this is utterly shrouded 493 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: in mystery. There's a lot of conjecture that goes into 494 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: picking this stuff apart. So what are the arguments for 495 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: its existence versus against its existence? Okay? Well, okay, let's 496 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: again let's start with project Monarch. Right, Okay, we're talking 497 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: about how we got these f o I A documents 498 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: for mk Ultra in general. Right overall, there is nothing 499 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: in any of those documents that talk about ways to 500 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: implant demons and or use um ancient mysticism or anything 501 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: to that effect to have a thing called Project Monarch. 502 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: It doesn't exist. Right through. The primary evidence that you're 503 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: gonna find for Project Monarch is somebody online somewhere generally, 504 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: or speaking in a book or something saying I was 505 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: a part of Project Monarch as a victim slash subject. 506 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: I like this so intellectual exercise counterpoint. The majority of 507 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: mk Ultra documents were destroyed. It's true. It's true when 508 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: we say a counterpoint, it's a great counterpoint. Most of 509 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: them were destroyed. And you would probably want to destroy 510 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: something if you had anything written down about using demons 511 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: to manipulate people and create sex slaves. Yeah, I agreed. 512 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: You just toss off sex slaves just like nothing just now, 513 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: Well I did, because that's essentially what that is. Essentially 514 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: what the monarch is supposed to be about. Whether it's 515 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: a lot of times alleged it's a sex slave, like 516 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: an iconic sex slave like a Britney Spears or someone 517 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: that then projects out to millions of people across the planet. 518 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: What it what what it should be to be essentially, 519 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: or it's a single human being like who was being 520 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: you know, abused and like in in the shadows by 521 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: someone powerful. So we know that, unfortunately and tragically, we 522 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: know that the entertainment industry, from film to music and 523 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: so on, is rife with widespread, covered up sexual abuse. 524 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: We know that we know a lot of the people 525 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: who have done that are never going to see a 526 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: day in court. They're never gonna go to jail. But 527 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: some of them actually are now. But some yeah, a few, sure, 528 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: But I guess that's better than nothing. We also know 529 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: that intelligence agencies across the world use honeypot traps. Right, 530 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 1: That's where you get you get compromat, as the Russians 531 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: would call it, on someone by filming them in a 532 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: sexually compromising situation, usually with a paid professional sex worker, 533 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 1: but occasionally with someone who has been coerced into playing 534 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: that role, like the PP tape right, like the that 535 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: may or may not exist right from the Steel dossier 536 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: right for the current president. That's that's one of the 537 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: hot allegations. There is one funny story because we're we're 538 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 1: exploring some dark and disturbing things. I can at least 539 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: give us one um less terrible story. You can read 540 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: this in the War Is Boring The War is Boring 541 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: section on medium dot com by Darien Kavanaugh. The CIA 542 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: and the KGB both tried to blackmail Indonesia's first president, 543 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: a man who went by the name Sukarno, because Indonesia 544 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: played an important role in the Cold War between the 545 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: US and the USSR, which is all it all comes 546 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: back to that usually in this time in history, uh, 547 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: they decided to do a honey pot scheme. The KGB 548 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: operatives dressed as flight attendants and had group sexual relations 549 00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: with the dictator. And then the CIA produced a you 550 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: essentially a pornographic film, and they thought that they would 551 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: be able to use this on the dictator. You know 552 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: what I mean, get in line with our ideas or 553 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: we will expose you, you dirty, dirty dog. And the 554 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: problem is the problem is it he was very happy 555 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: with it. He asked for copies. He liked to show 556 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: it to people. It was like, look like look where 557 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: the It's like look look, look, look look these are 558 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: flight attendants. Yeah. Yeah, He's like, you know, let me 559 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: play that part again. Somebody rewind this because this is like, 560 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: I'm really proud of this one. So this I hear. 561 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: That's the thing. A bunch of flight attendants get together 562 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: and film I'm important people. So uh so it did backfire, right, 563 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: and uh I think that's I think that's a hilarious story. 564 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: It's a hilarious story about evil people. But the reason 565 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: it's important is because each shows us that these sorts 566 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: of operations do exist. However, again to your point, Matt, 567 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: there is no mention of monarch and any mk ultrare documents. 568 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: There's no mention of monarch and anything official. Religious and 569 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: political scholars criticized Cathy O'Brien's claims because they say there 570 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: is absolutely no supporting evidence, and at this point there 571 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: is absolutely no supporting evidence. Uh. David G. Robinson characterized 572 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: them as symptomatic of something called moral panic and noted 573 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: that no one has ever been prosecuted of such crimes, 574 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: nor as any corroborate material evidence ever been produced. It 575 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: just stinks that you can't you can't just take that 576 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: for what it is, because you have to go back 577 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: to the point of if any of this was actually 578 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,720 Speaker 1: happening happening, it would be suppressed so hard that maybe 579 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: just we would never know about it. Right. And also, um, also, 580 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: even if someone who is a survivor of abuse doesn't 581 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: have all of the facts or the dates at their command, 582 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that they're lying. And I've I've brought 583 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: with me today, uh an old friend of ours, this 584 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: book Outbreak, The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary Social Behavior, which is 585 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 1: about moral panics and how they spread. I highly recommend 586 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: this book for anyone who is um interested in seeing 587 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: just how quickly moral panics can spread. It's always the 588 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:43,720 Speaker 1: idea of something either so morally reprehensible and against social 589 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: morays that are universally acknowledged to be good things. So 590 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: that would be stuff like cannibalism, child abuse, etcetera, all 591 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: all the terrible, terrible things, or something that is alarming 592 00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: and possibly life threatening people are right. And because a 593 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: new report says that you will get eye cancer in 594 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: two weeks if you don't drink coffee, so the stores 595 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: all sell out a coffee. People are fighting over coffee. 596 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: And then later the same paper that published that publishes 597 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 1: a retraction on page ten and no one reads it, 598 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: and coffee prices go through the roof smart evil. Let's 599 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: do it right now, we can't, we just do it 600 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: on it. So it's true though, I mean, it doesn't 601 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: mean that people are stupid. It means that we're easily 602 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: led to We have this idea of what the right 603 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: thing to do is, and we want to be on 604 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: the right side of history, right, so we will do 605 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 1: what we can. And sometimes we should research, research this 606 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: stuff before we react to it. And then there's another 607 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: burning question. This is a big counterpoint no for four sense. 608 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: If this is true, if any of this is true, 609 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: then how are these Project Monarch survivors alive? How are 610 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: they publishing books? How are they writing about this and 611 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: not you know, committing suicide by getting tied into a 612 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: duffel bag or having and shot themselves twice in the 613 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: back of the head. Because it's not entirely true, I'm 614 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: asking like it seems like if there were an organization 615 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: this powerful, this story would never have gotten out. Right. 616 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: It certainly does seem like that, especially considering the purging 617 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: that went down. You know, yeah, great point. So where 618 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: is this name coming from? I mean, there there was 619 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: no the name wasn't in any kind of any kind 620 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: of documentation. Where where did this begin to circulate? Do 621 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: we even have an origin for that? The way this 622 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: information got out into the public records primarily from people 623 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: who say that they survived the program, So anecdotes and 624 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: are they corroborated, like are they people who knew each 625 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 1: other or I'm just I mean, I'm just wondering if 626 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: there is any connection between these people or this is interesting. 627 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,320 Speaker 1: It's tricky because it goes back to the hypnotic regression question. 628 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: There may well be people who say they knew each 629 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: other now, but their story changed as their sessions continued. 630 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: There were also stories of people so in the universe 631 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: of this, people are not meeting one another under their 632 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: real names. You're nine years old, you meet a ten 633 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: year old who was called different names. These horrific things 634 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: occur to you. You never see that ten year old again, 635 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: but you learned that they have died. So it has 636 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:48,760 Speaker 1: baked in difficulty when it comes to tracking or corroborating things. 637 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,720 Speaker 1: And it's part of the Satanic panic. Honestly, the moral 638 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: panic that swept through the US and really peaked in 639 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,800 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. If you were around in the nineteen eighties. 640 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: Then you you know about this, right, D and D 641 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: was the was a herald of dark Satanic times to come. 642 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: Everybody with any sort of authority that was not religious, 643 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: any secular power, was part of the illuminati. They were 644 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,720 Speaker 1: dressing in robes, they were circling around, they were killing goats, children, 645 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: eating people, human flesh. Um. They were doing bohemian groves stuff, 646 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: but not with an effigy with people. Those are those 647 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: are the ideas. UH. This made some big careers in 648 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: journalism and in the publishing world, and at this point 649 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: still despite all the public attention, there's been no evidence 650 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: of a widespread event of this nature. And that's an 651 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 1: important point because it's not like it's just, um, the 652 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: five of us, you know, you listening to the three 653 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: of us and then mission control. It's not like it's 654 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 1: just five people looking into this. This was a nation. 655 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: These were news networks. They were pouring millions into this 656 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,720 Speaker 1: search and they came up with bubkus. There have, however, 657 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: been several cases of child abuse networks functioning in the 658 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 1: halls of power UH in Belgium, in the US, in 659 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: the UK. These abuse networks are real, They're just not 660 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,400 Speaker 1: necessarily satanic. And they're not necessarily tied to intelligence agencies, 661 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: at least the ones we found. And the the Satanic 662 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: angle is almost like and this is this is one 663 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: way to think about it. If you place Satanism and 664 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: the devil and that kind of evil on top of 665 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: something like this that may even be provable with in 666 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: some way or another, or um spoken about by enough 667 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,720 Speaker 1: people if you put if you place those labels on it, 668 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: it be it becomes so crazy and out there that 669 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: it almost becomes impossible that that these kinds of abuse 670 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,960 Speaker 1: networks could function at that level. Right, It makes you 671 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: believe that it's impossible when you bring the devil and 672 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: evil into it like that, rather than it just being 673 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: a group of powerful people that have really messed up 674 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: things that they like to do. Uh, Does that make 675 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 1: any sense? Does not to mention that the whole idea 676 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: of like secret Satanic organizations has been time and time 677 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: again disproven, Like the idea of like the whole Satanic 678 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: panic thing, it's a panic because no one's really doing 679 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: and in the way that you might think, you know 680 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,439 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, like even like the the the child 681 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 1: murders at robin Hood Hill or whatever, like the the 682 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: idea that there are groups of quote unquote Satan worshippers 683 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: that are doing human sacrifices and stuff. I mean, it 684 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: was it's always to me, what's been proven out is 685 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 1: that it's much more of a form of protest and 686 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: kind of like a middle finger to the man and 687 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: like you know, organized religion than it is some kind 688 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: of shadowy cabal doing rituals and like a dungeon somewhere right. 689 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,480 Speaker 1: And then the thing is that these two things are 690 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: these two practices are often conflated. There are criminals like 691 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein who repeatedly abused children, and they can have 692 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: cover up s occur, like Jeffrey Epstein who again repeatedly 693 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,239 Speaker 1: abused children and as of now totally got away with it. 694 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: And then there are groups who are pursuing um a 695 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: religious or ceremonial thing, you know what I mean. Like 696 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 1: they get to like Anton LaVey is not a deistic Satanist. 697 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,280 Speaker 1: It's not someone who acknowledges the existence of a Judeo 698 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: Christian Islamic God. And then some adversary and sided with 699 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,919 Speaker 1: a bad guy, and they're very much against any kind 700 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,799 Speaker 1: of abuse. You know, they get a bad rap, but absolutely, 701 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: but we do know that there are there are times 702 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:04,280 Speaker 1: when this sort of child abuse draped in Satanic ritual 703 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:09,359 Speaker 1: has occurred. True Detective Season one, which is fantastic, uh, 704 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: seems at least partially inspired by a genuine child abuse 705 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: network that operated out of a church in Ponchatoula, Louisiana. 706 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: For the record, the creator of the show, Nick Pizolatto, 707 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: initially said I had no idea this was a thing. 708 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about, but also said 709 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: that about a couple other aspects sort of lifted for 710 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: that first season two right right, right, exactly some of 711 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: the philosophical writings that Rust Cole's character spouted. I don't 712 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,279 Speaker 1: remember who it was, but it was sort of a 713 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: modern day philosophy guy who he kind of lifted some 714 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: of those lines from. Absolutely, and maybe he should have 715 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: just come clean and been transparent about it. But we 716 00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: also know there's an elephant in the room. Several of 717 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,600 Speaker 1: us listening are are saying, how are you guys going 718 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: to talk about this kind of stuff? And not mentioned 719 00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. Members of the Catholic Church actively covered 720 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,640 Speaker 1: up numerous cases of child abuse for at the very, 721 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: very least decades and if current behavior or recent behavior 722 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: was any indication that we're looking at UM a phenomenon 723 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: that goes back centuries and it's so widespread that it's 724 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: at the very top of the organizational structure. Right, So 725 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: the more cynical among us will often regard monarch claims 726 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 1: as either a delusion, an indication of being mentally unwell, 727 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 1: or blatant cash grab. But there's no denying child abuses real. 728 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 1: There's no indication that the US government actively poured money 729 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: into a program designed to brainwash people through the abuse 730 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: of minors. And this brings up the phenomenon that we're 731 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,319 Speaker 1: We've explored before, but it's key to this, and we've 732 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,680 Speaker 1: been we've been getting closer and closer to that in 733 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: this episode the problem of individual actors Versus institutional actors 734 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: UH make up a name for a politician, Um Kringle okay, 735 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:05,799 Speaker 1: so Kringle Rickenbach, representative in UH It's uh Idaho is 736 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 1: found to be committing UH flagrant repeated acts of abuse 737 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,919 Speaker 1: of some kind of abuse, and Kringle Rickenbach turns out 738 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 1: has been getting really weird with it too. He wears 739 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: some kind of ritual mask. He's got a robe and 740 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: a a a little dance he does before he eats 741 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: people whatever. He's really messed up guy. But even even 742 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,320 Speaker 1: though he's proven to have committed these he goes to jail. 743 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: He's insane. Uh. And this doesn't mean that the government 744 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: or the constituency he represented co signed this in any way. 745 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: They were voting for him because of his uh stance 746 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,640 Speaker 1: on taxes and they did not know he was accountable. 747 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,839 Speaker 1: So he's an individual actor. However, let's take a real 748 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 1: world case in the case of Jimmy Saville or several 749 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,560 Speaker 1: Catholic priests, there's an institution that actively aids and a 750 00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 1: bets the criminals involved. The Catholic Church covered up for 751 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:08,840 Speaker 1: sexual abusers, and high society in England, including law enforcement 752 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 1: and including uh the government, right, Parliament, corporation, media corporations 753 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: of BBC. They covered up this, these crimes. And that 754 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:24,120 Speaker 1: means it's a matter of institutional actors. So the big 755 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:28,280 Speaker 1: question is people in the US government we're doing horrific, 756 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: dirty things. Were they doing it as individuals or were 757 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 1: they doing it as representatives of an institution. That's the 758 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,359 Speaker 1: big question, and it's tough to answer. But we do 759 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: have some good news, at least for people seeking justice 760 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 1: in Canada. Remember that lawsuit we mentioned at the top 761 00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,800 Speaker 1: of this section. Well, let's let's get into that a 762 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 1: little bit. So, Um, the court, uh, the court still 763 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: has to certify certain things about this, right, but but 764 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,600 Speaker 1: here's here's some quotations, some things we know about it 765 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: thus far. So there's this doctor and doctor Cameron, and 766 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: the lawsuit states that his tactics were nothing more than 767 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: an electronic lobotomy. And it also claims that he damaged 768 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,160 Speaker 1: a lot of his other patients brains and shattered their 769 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:21,200 Speaker 1: psyches and left them unable to function in a society 770 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,320 Speaker 1: and within their families. So this one, doctor Cameron, really 771 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:29,240 Speaker 1: did some seemingly horrific things, at least according to the lawsuit. 772 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,799 Speaker 1: Right yeah, yeah, yeah, And uh, he died is since 773 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 1: passed away of a heart attack. The government of Canada 774 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 1: paid seventy seven of his victims a settlement of one 775 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 1: thousand dollars and rejected the claims of more than two 776 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,839 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty others. So maybe just the most egregious 777 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,320 Speaker 1: offending moments, I guess, and probably the way that large 778 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,720 Speaker 1: governments where people who could provide a paper trail proving 779 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: where they were and when the case may go may 780 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,080 Speaker 1: go to court. Hopefully it will, but according to the 781 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: National Post, the Government of Canada is going to be 782 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: in an antagonistic position for the course of this legal proceeding. 783 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,799 Speaker 1: The Government of Canada asked a third party, a guy 784 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,600 Speaker 1: named George T. H. Cooper, to conduct an inquiry into 785 00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 1: Dr Cameron's d patterning work between nineteen fifty and sixty five, 786 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 1: and this Cooper report, which was concluded in said that 787 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,320 Speaker 1: Canada did not hold any legal liability or moral responsibility 788 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:39,439 Speaker 1: in respect to these treatments. So Canada said, uh, yeah, 789 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,480 Speaker 1: hands up. We're both throwing our hands up like that. 790 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,160 Speaker 1: Canada says not not us, not us, and uh McGill 791 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,440 Speaker 1: University Health Center also said Cameron carried out these experiments, 792 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 1: but they were not responsible for his actions. So they're 793 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:58,920 Speaker 1: also saying not us, not an institution and individual. And 794 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,200 Speaker 1: this leads to some conclusions, or as close as we 795 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 1: can get at this point. Missing information about MK ultra, 796 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:11,360 Speaker 1: it will continue to feed uh conspiratorial theories, claims, anecdotes 797 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:17,040 Speaker 1: and so on, and we probably won't be we we 798 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,000 Speaker 1: can disprove some stuff, but we will never be able 799 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:24,239 Speaker 1: to fully understand what m k Ultra actually did exactly. 800 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,920 Speaker 1: And there you know, it's so funny. The lack of 801 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,680 Speaker 1: transparency here is the big issue, at least from the 802 00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: government side. If the if these documents were available at 803 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,920 Speaker 1: some point for everybody to see them, it would be 804 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,000 Speaker 1: more of a oh wow, look look at what we 805 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,520 Speaker 1: did back then. That's pretty brutal. Oh man, I hope 806 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,520 Speaker 1: we at least gained some knowledge from that, from putting 807 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,080 Speaker 1: all these people through this terrible trauma. Hopefully we can 808 00:53:54,120 --> 00:54:00,200 Speaker 1: get some justice for those people. But now it's just, um, 809 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:05,640 Speaker 1: it's just a breeding ground for much worse ideas because 810 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,479 Speaker 1: because of that lack of transparency. Yeah, exactly. We can 811 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,480 Speaker 1: keep an eye on the Canadian lawsuit. Legally speaking, that's 812 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:17,520 Speaker 1: the only thing continuing right now. And maybe maybe we'll 813 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:22,759 Speaker 1: learn some more information about a specific project of mk ultra, 814 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,239 Speaker 1: right and maybe that's how we get things. Maybe we 815 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 1: collect breadcrumbs. But that means it takes a long time 816 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,400 Speaker 1: to build the whole loaf. You know, it sounds like 817 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:35,279 Speaker 1: a whole podcast, just just a podcast and figuring out 818 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 1: figuring out culture is. While we talked about having Russell 819 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 1: targ back on that's true. It could be just the thing. 820 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,160 Speaker 1: Let's just get him to host a show where he 821 00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,800 Speaker 1: remote views and to track down scientists who are involved 822 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:53,200 Speaker 1: in MK ultra programs and then UH does hypnotic regression 823 00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:57,080 Speaker 1: on them and or remote viewing with them. It teaches 824 00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:01,239 Speaker 1: them to go back and remember and the pitch. Let's 825 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,560 Speaker 1: do it. So also, I mean, also, we we are 826 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,799 Speaker 1: reaching the point where, just due to the limitations of 827 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: human lifespan, a lot of people who could make a 828 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,440 Speaker 1: deathbed confession have already died. You know what I mean. 829 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: We do want to include on a on a last note, 830 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,720 Speaker 1: one of the most important things in any episode dealing 831 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,839 Speaker 1: with this sort of subject matter is this, If you 832 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,800 Speaker 1: are a survivor of abuse, or if you know someone 833 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,960 Speaker 1: who has survived abuse, UH, please be aware that you 834 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:41,560 Speaker 1: are not alone. There are numerous organizations, both government funded 835 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:45,560 Speaker 1: and private, that are there for you to provide free counseling, 836 00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,759 Speaker 1: to provide resources, to provide therapy. We do hope that 837 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,440 Speaker 1: you reach out to these sources. They are there for you. 838 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:58,960 Speaker 1: There is someone waiting to help you. Absolutely, and if 839 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,280 Speaker 1: you want to just share your thoughts or your story 840 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,879 Speaker 1: with us. You can reach out to us where we 841 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:08,480 Speaker 1: are at Conspiracy Stuff on Facebook and on Twitter. You 842 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,560 Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram where we are at Conspiracy 843 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:16,400 Speaker 1: Stuff show. And you guys also have Instagram accounts, that's true. 844 00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,239 Speaker 1: You can find me at Ben Bolan on Instagram. You 845 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:24,000 Speaker 1: can find me at Embryonic Insider. There you go, and 846 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 1: you can also if you do like Facebook, you can 847 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 1: join our our group. Here's where it gets crazy, where 848 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,680 Speaker 1: you can just talk to everybody on there. There's so 849 00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,319 Speaker 1: many of us that just want to learn more, and 850 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,279 Speaker 1: it's a great place to have those open conversations with 851 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,759 Speaker 1: everyone else. And if you don't want to do any 852 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 1: of that stuff, you can leave a message a voicemail 853 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,800 Speaker 1: at one eight three three st d w y t K. 854 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,480 Speaker 1: When do we start doing this unison thing? I don't 855 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,520 Speaker 1: know what just happened organically, and now it's just part 856 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,879 Speaker 1: of the fabric of the show. It's a chant at 857 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: this point, is it's an incantation. That's exactly what it is. 858 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:02,920 Speaker 1: We're all about ritual here on stuff that don't want 859 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,920 Speaker 1: you to know. Correct And just in that same vein, 860 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 1: you get three minutes to uh to engrave your voice 861 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:16,160 Speaker 1: and your thoughts into the into our voicemailbox, and we 862 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,000 Speaker 1: will we will hear it, and then possibly it will 863 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,720 Speaker 1: get on the show at some point. You get three 864 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,680 Speaker 1: minutes to do it. You can do multiples if you want, 865 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,960 Speaker 1: but if you keep put short you get bonus points. Um, 866 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,240 Speaker 1: just because it's a little easier to digest. Um. But yeah, 867 00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,040 Speaker 1: if you don't want to do any of that stuff, 868 00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 1: you can write us a good old fashioned email. We 869 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:56,840 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com. Stuff they 870 00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:58,480 Speaker 1: Don't Want you to Know is a production of I 871 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my 872 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,320 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 873 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.