1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,079 Speaker 1: The Thread is a new hit podcast from Azzi Media 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: that explores history surprising connections in order to discover how 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: one thing leads to another, like how movie moguls in 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: early Hollywood helps spark the Me Too movement Today, get 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: it on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen. Now 6 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeart 7 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George Norri, 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: you with you. Dr Richard Gallagher back with us. He's 9 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: written in a great article about how a scientists learned 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: to work with exorcists and his upcoming book above Demonic Possession. Dr. 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: With these possessions though rare, What do you think they 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: are the ones that are the real deal? What do 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: you think is happening? Well, Mr Nori, my belief is 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: the traditional one. I believe that there are evil spirits. 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: Um sometimes I put it this way. I've met scores 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: of people, in fact, hundreds of people who claim they're 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: attacked by non material forces. Let's call them spirits. If 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: they're attacking people. And I'm not saying that old spirits 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: attack people, but if they attack people, what are they? 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: They are evil spirits? And what has been the traditional 21 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: Western view not only of Christianity, but also of Islam, 22 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: also of Judaism, at least at certain points in its history. 23 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: They don't tend to to emphasize that belief anymore, nor 24 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: did the original Hebrew Bible have all that much of 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: a notion of evil spirits, but they there there are 26 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: references to it. So the mainstream and it is the 27 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: religious view. Admittedly, the mainstream religious view throughout Western civilizations 28 00:01:54,760 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: has always been that evil spirits are fallen angels. They 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: rebelled against God, and they may be said to have 30 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: gone to their own place, um, but they seem to 31 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: have an incredible hostility towards God, maybe envy, and certainly 32 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: Satan seems to have been envious of God, and they 33 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: kind of take it out on human beings. They hate God, 34 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: and I think they hate the image of God in 35 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: human beings. They hate the fact that we can still 36 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: have a relationship with God. They've refused that and we 37 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: can still have a loving personality. They do not seem capable, 38 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: in my opinion, of love. In fact, they're filled with 39 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: envy and hostility, and so in some strange way, and 40 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: admittedly it's a strange way, they have some freedom to 41 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: attack human beings, and they do so. How many cases 42 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: have you looked at or been referred to you, doc, Well, 43 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: I've I've had hundreds of cases referred to me. Now, 44 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: even of those cases, most turned out to be um 45 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: mental illness or or rarely neurological illness. But again it's 46 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: a very self selected group because these are people who 47 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: are have already usually been screened and they have at 48 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: least some credibility. And people ask me how many cases 49 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: have I directly assessed of possession? Remember there's also more 50 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: minor attacks, which people use different terms of I tend 51 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: to prefer the term oppression. But I've seen at least 52 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: a hundred cases, and this is over many years, directly 53 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: of demonic possession. And I've seen several hundred cases of oppression. 54 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: So it sounds like it's I'm saying it's com and 55 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: it's not. The only reason these individuals even speak to 56 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: me is because they know I'm open minded, because a 57 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of people they won't even talk 58 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: about their problems, and their problems are are dramatic. Again, 59 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: these are not just people who are hearing voices. These 60 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: are not scizophrenics. They're not multiple personalities, they're not suggestible individuals. 61 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: These are all conditions one has to be ruled out 62 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: before you conclude that somebody is demonically possessed. These are 63 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: people who have who fulfill very rigorous criteria. Uh, this 64 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: is not just the willy nilly discernment. Without that rigorous criteria, 65 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: we don't we don't discern a possession. Let's say, of 66 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: a hundred potential cases, how many do you think it 67 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: could be the real deal? What percent? Well, again, you 68 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: know that's that's that's sounds like a simple question, but 69 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: it's not because of the cases that think they are 70 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: possessed when in fact they're psychotic or otherwise emotionally disturbed, 71 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: they're very suggestible, or they dissociate or something like that. 72 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: Of those cases, the amount that would turn out to 73 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: be genuinely demonically possessed is minuscule. But that would be 74 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: one or two out of a d Again, Mr Norri, 75 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: it depends on what population you're talking about. I see 76 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: a higher percentage because people have already been screened before 77 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: they see me. In other words, you know, they go 78 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: to a priest, or they go to a minister, or 79 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: some cases they've gone to rabbis or I moms, and 80 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: they have clearly um flamboyant symptomatology like they're going to 81 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: a trance and a voice will come out of them 82 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: and that will sometimes speak foreign languages. Now, if you're 83 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: talking about those cases, well, obviously that's gonna raise a 84 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: lot of credibility. But your average psychiatric patient who thinks 85 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: they are possessed, uh, and there there are loads more 86 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: of those patients obviously than the rare possession of those people. Uh. 87 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: They have to meet these criteria and they almost invariably 88 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: do not. Well, what what is that red flag that 89 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: that you see when you're with a patient and you 90 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: say to yourself, this is not a demonic possession. This 91 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: is some this is something else is not So what's 92 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: that flag that you see that you know right away? 93 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: They just don't meet the criteria. I mean the criteria 94 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: are are Maybe that's the way to answer your question. 95 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: A genuine demonic possession. Again, there are there are lesser 96 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: attacks too, but a genuine demonic possession is normally going 97 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: to go into a trance, a voice is going to 98 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: come out of them, which uses the person's vocal cord. 99 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: You know, seems to pronounce itself a separate personality. That 100 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: personality is incredibly hostile towards anything religious. Uh, given its 101 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: given its freedom, would probably be incredibly attacking. And then 102 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: they exhibit I don't I don't particularly I know you 103 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: and your audience probably is familiar with the use of 104 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: the term paranormal. You gotta remember, paranormal is a modern 105 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: term past ages. It's it's it's slightly yeah, I'm not. 106 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: I'm not disparaging people who believe in quote the paranormal, 107 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: but it's it's a it's a quasi scientific term that 108 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: was coined in the eight hundreds too, in early nineteen 109 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: and early century to designate phenomena that in the past 110 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: would have been regarded as either supernatural or preternatural or 111 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, basically supernatural or demonic and so um, using 112 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: the term in that sense. These cases, in addition to 113 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: this hostile personality, have to exhibit clear preter natural signs, 114 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: not what are those signs, speaking foreign languages which they 115 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: never knew, exhibiting you know, strange movements, superhuman strength, that 116 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: sort of thing, including levitation um and I know a 117 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: number of cases of levitation um. They have hidden knowledge 118 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: the Latin term is later, meaning they have possession of 119 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: knowledge of things they could not know otherwise. I dealt 120 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: with a Satanist woman who was unequivocally possessed. She told 121 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: me all kinds of amazing things, one of them how 122 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: my mother died. But it wasn't just me. She knew 123 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: how fifteen other people's mother had died. She also levitated 124 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: during her exorcisms. During her exorcism, she spoke foreign languages. 125 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: So the significance of those phenomena, of those features is 126 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: that you're dealing with a separate personality who has those abilities. 127 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: Human human beings all of a sudden are not going 128 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: to be able to levitate. Human beings all of a 129 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: sudden are not going to be able to speak fluent 130 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: Latin or ancient Greek. I studied both of those languages, 131 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: and I've heard both of those or other languages as well, 132 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: So you're clearly dealing with a separate personality. It helps 133 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: as well the context, and these possessions don't just happen 134 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: to anybody. These are people who have often turned to 135 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: Satanism in their life, or turned to evil or serious 136 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: occult involvement. Um Sometimes they've invited a demon in so 137 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: you take the total pattern. And I, I say to 138 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: my fellow psychiatrists, because they often see people who are 139 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: delusional or psychotic about being attacked by a demon when 140 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: in factor schizophrenic or bipolar or something like that. And 141 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: I say, okay, I agree that those people are not 142 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: diabolically attacked. But how about the patient who does or 143 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: the victim you know, again, these are not patients of mind. 144 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: How about how about the victim who can all of 145 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: a sudden speak Latin or or or Bulgarian or Chinese 146 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: fluently when they've never even been exposed to That about 147 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: the case of the person who seems to exhibit incredibly 148 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: strange movements like a levitation. And these are these are 149 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: roll cases that have been that I've either witnessed myself 150 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: because I've been too many exorcisms, or have been reported 151 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: to me by you know, seven or eight credible people. 152 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: I had. I had one guy who was a He 153 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: was a criminal, and he had turned to He was 154 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: a gangster, and he did some very grizzly things. He 155 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: had turned to Satanism to become sort of top of 156 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: the heap gangster. I spoke to his wife. His wife said, 157 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: you know not only did she hear him speak Latin 158 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: um uh, and not only during his exorcisms did he 159 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: understand Latin, but she saw him levitate. Now, people are 160 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: free to believe that or not, but I know that 161 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: stuff to be on equivocally true. Do some of these 162 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: people try to fake it in front of you? You're 163 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: in a rare case. You may get somebody who tries 164 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: to fake it. You know, there are certainly people who 165 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: are attention seeking, but again they're not going to have 166 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: anywhere near these dramatic features you can't fake. I mean, 167 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: I was a classics major at Princeton. I studied Latin 168 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: for eight years. I studied Greek, Ancient Greek for eight years. 169 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: You're not gonna be You're not gonna be able to 170 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: fake knowing ancient Greek or Latin to someone like myself leting, 171 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: you're not gonna be able to levitate. And I've had 172 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: I've had at least fifteen different cases. I've never seen 173 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: a levitation myself, I will admit that, but I've had 174 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: about fifteen different cases where all the participants swear to 175 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: me this person levitator. The Satanist woman I referred to 176 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: before levitated eight people told me this. They're in the exorcism, 177 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: they saw her lebertate. Now it frustrates the skeptics because 178 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: the doctor and their skeptics, who are always looking for 179 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: other explanations, say, well, how come you didn't videotape it? 180 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: And I say to people, it's it's a naive question 181 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: because these demons have spent millennia trying to hide themselves. 182 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: Now they do like to show off, they do like 183 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: to manifest their powers at times. They're not going to 184 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: perform for a camera. They're not some exhibition ast Hollywood 185 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: actor who wants to appear on YouTube. So people are 186 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: naive when they expect video recordings. I have some pictures 187 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: and video tapes and stuff like that that are kind 188 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: of equivocal. I I don't know that it would convince 189 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: me unless I knew the whole case. But the most 190 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: dramatic cases, they're You're just not going to get that 191 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: kind of evidence because you're dealing with intelligences. And I 192 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: believe just as angels are more intelligent than human beings, 193 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: demons are fallen. Angels are much more intelligent. They're not 194 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: They're not going to perform for us. That's not there 195 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: that's not that's not their motives. In fact, they have 196 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: contempt for us. Uh. This the demon, or at least 197 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: one of the demons that was possessing the Satanist woman 198 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: called that priest who first asked me on a case. 199 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: He used to call her the you effing monkey priest. 200 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: I think demons think of us as inferior, stupid creature, 201 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: essentially monkeys. Have they ever attacked you physically? No, But 202 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, during an exorcism, when they're accessed, I take precautions. 203 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: You know, you have to use your judgment. I mean 204 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: sometimes you hear these exorcisms where people get out of control. 205 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: What those are usually among inexperienced people, experienced exorcists. No, 206 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: you have to you have to hold the individual down. 207 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: At that point, Uh, the victim is not really responsible 208 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: for themselves. Listen to more Coast to Coast a m 209 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: every weeknight at one a m. Eastern and go to 210 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: Coast to Coast am dot com for more