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Speaker 1: Hello, Stuff you should know, come and see us in

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Speaker 1: Orlando or New Orleans, because that's your last chance. Yeah, Orlando,

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Speaker 1: We're going to be at the Plaza Live October nine.

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Speaker 1: New Orleans We're going to be at the Civic Theater October.

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Speaker 1: Just go to s Y s K live dot com

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Speaker 1: and you will find info and links to buy tickets

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Speaker 1: and then you can come see us because they won't

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Speaker 1: let you in the door without them. I'm sorry, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And if you want to come see me, I will

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Speaker 1: be in Chicago at Lincoln Hall on September twelve, and

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Speaker 1: I will be in Austin, Texas at the North Door

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Speaker 1: on October two. Uh. Ticket links are weirdly hard to find,

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Speaker 1: so just look up End of the World, Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: Austin or Chicago and you will find what you're looking for.

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Speaker 1: See you guys soon. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know,

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Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W.

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Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant. There's first time guest producer Dave Dave. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he picked it up already that he already knows not

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Speaker 1: to say anything in response I love that for a

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Speaker 1: guest producer, don't you so. Dave's story Dave worked with

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Speaker 1: this many many years ago and went away. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know what Dave did in the meantime. He went

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Speaker 1: to Alaska. I think he wandered the desert. The heered.

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Speaker 1: He wandered back in one day and said, hey, I

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Speaker 1: hear you guys invented podcasting, right, Can I get a job? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And here he is now. Yeah, it's good to have

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Speaker 1: him back. You may have noticed a distinct uptick in

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Speaker 1: the quality of our short stuffs. That's because Dave took

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Speaker 1: over editing those things. Yeah, Jerry was like, this isn't

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Speaker 1: even worth my time. Snooze yawn. Yeah, Jerry's been handing

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Speaker 1: off duties huh left dude, right, like she's dealing handed cards.

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Speaker 1: You know. The final straw one day is she's gonna

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Speaker 1: just look at us both. This is how she's gonna

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Speaker 1: quit and do the move when the dealer leaves the table. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the little hand move. Yep, I'm out, I'm out. I

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Speaker 1: hate you both so much. That's how she's gonna break

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Speaker 1: it to us. And then a new person with a

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Speaker 1: cumber bun on we'll just wander in and an arm garter,

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Speaker 1: because we get a casinos in the nineteenth century, right,

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Speaker 1: a portly fellow with the mustache hair waxed. That would

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Speaker 1: be great, It would be great. Can't you see Jerry

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Speaker 1: dreaming about doing that, just kind of twitching in her

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Speaker 1: sleep with a big smile on her face. You and

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Speaker 1: I dream about stuff you should have going on forever,

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Speaker 1: and she dreams about it's ultimate to minds. Right, So Chuck,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you. Have you ever had nacho cheese dorito's? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Is that the original dorito? I don't know. I think

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Speaker 1: it's possible taco flavors the original. But for you and me,

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Speaker 1: as children of the seventies eighties, I would say nacho

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Speaker 1: cheese is the first one. We probably right? The red bag? Sure,

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Speaker 1: I'm a cool ranch guy. I like it too. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I like al doritos. I don't really discriminate. So you

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Speaker 1: have had nacho chritos? Yes? Have you ever had soy sauce? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I'm a big soy guy. I do not follow the

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Speaker 1: sushi uh what they say? How to eat sushi? Drown it?

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Speaker 1: Do you? I? I still use soy sauce, even though

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Speaker 1: every time I there's a weird little voice in my

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Speaker 1: head that's like, can I'm supposed to do? That? Is

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Speaker 1: probably you me sitting next to you. I say, no,

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Speaker 1: it's really not, because she uses a little bit too.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know it is. It's not male, it's

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Speaker 1: not female. It's just some weird disembodied voice. And I

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Speaker 1: say to heck with you voice, I'm doing it anyway. Um,

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Speaker 1: what about Maggie sauce? Have you ever had that? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. Oh, I'll bet you have somewhere.

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Speaker 1: It's a kind of like a tall, slender brown bottle

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Speaker 1: with a yellow label, Maggie m A G G. I

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Speaker 1: I think I can picture it. Okay, I'll bet you've

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Speaker 1: had anyway, if you've had all three? Those? Are any

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Speaker 1: one of those? What about vegemite? Oh god, no, okay,

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Speaker 1: I've had vegemite. I'm not crazy for it, but we're

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Speaker 1: not here to yuck anyone's am right? Well, I got,

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Speaker 1: I got. I'm gonna throw one in because I see

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Speaker 1: what you're doing now, Okay, can I throw it in there?

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Speaker 1: Have you ever used accent? That is a c H

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Speaker 1: A little excent. Agu I believe ce nt that's spice.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know if I have. I know

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Speaker 1: exactly what it is because I'm just so familiar with

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Speaker 1: grocery stores, but I don't know if I've ever had

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Speaker 1: which is so familiar with grocery store that's so familiar.

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Speaker 1: It's one of your talents. I've got another one for you.

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Speaker 1: You know, Japanese mayonnaise, the QP eat all mayonnaise. I

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Speaker 1: have had that. Okay, we could do this all day.

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Speaker 1: What about oysters? You ever had oysters? I love oysters. Okay, well, chuck, listen,

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Speaker 1: you have had MSG monosodium glutamate if you've eaten anyone

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Speaker 1: or all of those things, that's right. I love monosodium glutamate,

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Speaker 1: also known as MSG. And the world does two. The

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Speaker 1: world just doesn't know it because MSG, those three little words,

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Speaker 1: those three little letters, have such a bad reputation, especially

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Speaker 1: in the West, especially in America, that man food manufacturers

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Speaker 1: have come to basically bend over backwards to create new

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Speaker 1: processes for creating MSG so that they can insert them

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Speaker 1: into foods without having to say that there's MSG in

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Speaker 1: the food, even though there's very much MSG in the food.

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Speaker 1: But they know that a lot of Americans won't eat

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Speaker 1: that food if they see that there's MSG in there.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And we will get to this in more detail,

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Speaker 1: But it was such a bad thing at one point,

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Speaker 1: especially in the seventies and eighties. Yeah, Like I remember

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Speaker 1: growing up and people talking about MSG and Chinese restaurants,

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Speaker 1: and the whole time they were talking smack about Chinese restaurants,

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Speaker 1: a lot of American families were just dumping that stuff

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Speaker 1: all over their food via that little accent spice bottle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: accent any kind of processed food that has any sort

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Speaker 1: of salty or savory kind of flavor to it, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's everywhere. It's in grape juice. It appears everywhere, naturally

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Speaker 1: and added because grape juice what you want is a meaty,

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Speaker 1: salty after taste. Swishing the grape juice around in your mouth,

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Speaker 1: you're like, Yeah, it's got a real oyster equality to it.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Are they natural and oysters? Is at

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Speaker 1: the deal? Yeah? Oysters clans they MSG. They like the

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Speaker 1: little trio of those three letters. Yeah. So the point

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Speaker 1: is that people are terrified of MSG or really can't

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Speaker 1: stand it. They say, maybe it gives them all sorts

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Speaker 1: of physical maladies. Perhaps they think it can can lead

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Speaker 1: to developmental disorders, and yet at the same time, they

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Speaker 1: consume m MSG every day without realizing it and without

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Speaker 1: being affected by it. So it's entirely possible. And you said,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about this much more in depth later, that

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Speaker 1: the fear of MSG is a totally unfounded scientific panic

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Speaker 1: that is, uh, basically a no cebow reaction to something

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Speaker 1: that appears to be basically harmless to almost everybody who

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Speaker 1: consumes it. Yeah, so let's I mean, we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: busting some myths left and right. Like I call Adam.

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Speaker 1: Did you say I call Adam? Yeah, I call Adam.

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Speaker 1: You're Jamie this time. Nuts. Yeah, you gotta shave your

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Speaker 1: beard to just keep the mustache. Yeah yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: gotta grow that mustache out to where it covers both lips.

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Speaker 1: That's right. He had that big thing, but he disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he said, thanks for the memories, suckers. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My I always had was under the impression, just watching

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Speaker 1: that show and being a fan that he didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be there ever, Right, I think he liked the

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Speaker 1: science of it, he wasn't into the TV part of it,

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Speaker 1: I think so. I think his last day on set.

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Speaker 1: He was He was probably pretty stoked together, right, he

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Speaker 1: was like Jerry at the end of stuff, you should

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Speaker 1: know when it comes. Yeah, except he had millions of

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Speaker 1: dollars stuffed into his arm guarter exactly. All right. So,

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Speaker 1: monosodium glutamate is there's a lot of myths. One of

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Speaker 1: them is that you know, this is something that human

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Speaker 1: beings just created out of thin air. It's black magic.

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Speaker 1: And that is not true because it occurs naturally. And

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Speaker 1: a lot of foods. If you've ever had tomatoes and cheese,

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Speaker 1: those are a couple of big ones. Eat a pizza,

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Speaker 1: you're eaten naturally occurring MSG. Yeah, don't forget again. Oysters, anchovies, mushrooms, potatoes, um,

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Speaker 1: if you like Asian food, kelp seaweed, all that stuff

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Speaker 1: contains natural MSG or some form of glutamates. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: such that the f d A like, if you get

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Speaker 1: a can of tomato sauce, if you haven't uh added

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Speaker 1: MSG otherwise, you don't have to put that on the

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Speaker 1: label because it's in the tomato. Right. But apparently in

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Speaker 1: the United States you also can't put something like no

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Speaker 1: added MSG or no MSG on the label because it's

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Speaker 1: been proven as misleading. She just don't mention MSG at all,

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Speaker 1: even though there is MSG in that tomato sauce. But

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Speaker 1: like you said, if the manufacturer says, these tomatoes have

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Speaker 1: a decent amount of MSG, but we really want to

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Speaker 1: pep it up a little bit with some added MSG,

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Speaker 1: then they definitely have to put that MSG is in there.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So, if you want to talk chemistry very briefly,

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Speaker 1: which is always the best way to talk about chemistry, uh,

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Speaker 1: it is monosodium glutamate. Is glutamic or glutamic acid? What

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Speaker 1: do you say? Glutamic glutamic and a little ion a

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Speaker 1: sodium just woop right there on top, right, and so

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Speaker 1: so that's it. That's monosodium glutamate. And so the difference

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Speaker 1: between glutamc acid, which is an amino acid that our

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Speaker 1: bodies produced were able to synthesize it by breaking down proteins,

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Speaker 1: it's actually um a glutamic acid, and any kind of

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Speaker 1: mineral ion bonded together is a glutamate. So if it's bonded,

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Speaker 1: if glutamic acid is bonded with an ion a sodium,

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Speaker 1: it's monosodium glutamate. If it's bonded with an ion of potassium.

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Speaker 1: It's potassium glutamate um. So there's like different minerals that

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Speaker 1: it can bond to, but the one we're talking about

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Speaker 1: is monosodium glutamate. And glutamate is extremely important to our bodies.

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Speaker 1: I saw somewhere that four pounds of us a little

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Speaker 1: a little under two kims um of any human being

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Speaker 1: walking around is glutamate. That's how that's how much of

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Speaker 1: it we have in our bodies at at any given

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Speaker 1: point in time. Yeah, and it it actually serves functions

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Speaker 1: to Glutamic acid is a neurotransmitter, and it's an excitatory neurotransmitter,

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Speaker 1: which that means it stimulates nerve cells to relay the signal.

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Speaker 1: And we'll get to the is it good or bad thing?

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Speaker 1: But some people one of the claims and sort of

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Speaker 1: where some of that is rooted aside from just propaganda,

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Speaker 1: is that MSG and foods can lead to excessive glutamate

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Speaker 1: in the brain and then excessive stimulation of nerve cells.

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Speaker 1: And for that reason, it's what's called an excitotoxin, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it excites neurons so much that it actually destroys or

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Speaker 1: damages them. So you destroy enough neurons, then you destroy

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Speaker 1: your cognitive function. That's right, and we'll we'll hold the

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Speaker 1: rest of that to the UH for further mythbusting, mythbuff thing,

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Speaker 1: I like the extra mustard you put on it. So

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Speaker 1: as far as how much we're consuming, this is what

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Speaker 1: the FDA says, and this is a quote. An average

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Speaker 1: adult consumes approximately thirteen grams of glutamate each day from

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Speaker 1: the protein and food. And then this is just like

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Speaker 1: regular foods. While intake of added MSG is estimated to

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Speaker 1: be around point five five grams per day, So average

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Speaker 1: daily intake is about a half a grammed day. Right,

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Speaker 1: and so um you can find it again everywhere in

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Speaker 1: the body. You also find it in um, breast, milk, UM,

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Speaker 1: and glutamates are just everywhere. And so even if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to get away from M S G, you're not

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Speaker 1: really getting away from glutamates. And it would be you'd

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Speaker 1: be ill advised to get away from glutamates to begin with. Right,

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Speaker 1: the thing is, and this is where a lot of

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Speaker 1: people say, well, really, MSG is fine, there's no problems

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Speaker 1: with it. A lot of people say that it's kind

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Speaker 1: of consider settle science by some as we'll see um

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Speaker 1: that the body does not distinguish between manufactured MSG and

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Speaker 1: the MSG or other kinds of glutamates that it gets

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Speaker 1: from foods in which this naturally occurs. Right when your

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Speaker 1: body takes it in takes a MSG, it goes Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's separate the sodium ion and send it over here

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Speaker 1: for this use, and we'll break the glutamate down over here,

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Speaker 1: and we'll use it for us for neurotransmitting and to

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Speaker 1: build proteins. It doesn't make any any distinction metabolically speaking,

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Speaker 1: between MSG that's manufactured and MSG that you find in

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Speaker 1: like tomatoes, right. I think part of the problem started

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Speaker 1: in the sixties with the way it was synthesized. Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Anytime something is synthesized to a chemical process that has

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Speaker 1: you know, toxins and toxic byproducts, I think people are

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Speaker 1: going to freak out, even if the end result is

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Speaker 1: not toxic. Yeah. And it's pretty understandable too, because I mean,

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff we're talking about is very nasty,

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Speaker 1: and you think about it, You're like, wait, that's where

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Speaker 1: MSG comes from, and I'm eating it on my food.

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Speaker 1: I can I can commiserate with that big time, even

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Speaker 1: though a large part of my brain is like that's

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Speaker 1: just kind of a fear of science and chemistry. But

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Speaker 1: it's understandable. I mean, like in the for the first

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Speaker 1: half of the twentieth century, there was a process um

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Speaker 1: to produce MSG that include to propylene and acryla nitrial.

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Speaker 1: But you don't want to eat that, and you don't

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Speaker 1: eat it. It's just these were used to as precursors

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Speaker 1: to create ms G. That's how that's the process for

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Speaker 1: a while. But you can understand how it would get

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Speaker 1: a bad rep just from that alone. Yeah, but now

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Speaker 1: it's produced by fermentation. Basically, they take certain kinds of

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Speaker 1: bacteria and yeast and they grow that in a broth.

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Speaker 1: They basically use starches, various sugars, carbohydrates, and then the

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Speaker 1: bacteria ferments that sugar and they produce the glutamate. Then

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Speaker 1: they combine it with the sodium and it becomes it

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Speaker 1: looks sort of like salt. It's a white crystalline substance.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't really have much of an odor, and you

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Speaker 1: could just sprinkle it on top of your chocolate ice

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Speaker 1: cream if you wanted. You could. I think it actually

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Speaker 1: does in certain amounts bring out sweet I don't think

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Speaker 1: it does anything to sour bitter, but it can enhance

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Speaker 1: sweetness and enhance salty. No, it does have its own flavor,

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Speaker 1: which we'll see, but it's also known as a flavor enhancer.

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Speaker 1: To write like that, accent right, exactly accent. Why aren't

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Speaker 1: they sponsoring this episode? I don't know. They really should

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Speaker 1: either that or like, leave us out of this. We

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Speaker 1: don't want to get this kind of wrap there. Queenly,

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Speaker 1: we were under the radar for a large portion of

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century, right exactly until you guys came along.

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Speaker 1: Should we take a break? Oh wait, hold on, I

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Speaker 1: have a little more on fermentation. Of course, this is

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Speaker 1: very surprising. But the fermentation the waste water, what's left

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Speaker 1: over after you get the MSG out of this, like

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Speaker 1: sugar beet juice that the bacteria and yeast have fermented.

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Speaker 1: I read a study from um the Chinese National Academy

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Speaker 1: of Science. I believe Chinese Academy of Science. They called

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Speaker 1: um MSG wastewater one of the most intractable forms of wastewater.

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Speaker 1: We we produce it, yeah, because all of that yeast

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Speaker 1: and some of the ammonium that's produced as a byproduct

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Speaker 1: of it. It um consumes a lot of oxygen, so

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Speaker 1: it kills off other stuff and like water, So you

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Speaker 1: can't just dump this wastewater into other water because it'll

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Speaker 1: create like a dead zone wherever it hits. That does

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Speaker 1: it's bode well for people that you know are scared

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Speaker 1: of it. No, it doesn't. There's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: about I'm achieve where if you look at you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I really understand it's really coincidental that this is actually harmless.

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Speaker 1: But there's all this like circumstantial peripheral stuff that's wastewater.

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Speaker 1: The wastewater will scorch, scorch the earth basically, Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: enjoy your enjoy your accent, chump, poor accent. All right now,

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Speaker 1: I'm okay with taking a break. All right. Uh, We'll

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Speaker 1: come back and talk a little bit, a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a refresher perhaps on umami. Right after this, so, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: we did an entire episode on New Mommy. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember that? That was a good one. It was. We

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Speaker 1: also talked about it in our episode on Taste and

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Speaker 1: how it works. But we should kind of go over

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Speaker 1: the broad strokes of it again, I think, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean up until uh, the early nineteen hundreds. Humans were

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Speaker 1: sort of since four d b C, when bitter was

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Speaker 1: added by a philosopher of all people named Democritis democratus

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Speaker 1: anything those philosophers couldn't do, I don't think so. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty broad title back then, but sweet, salty, sour, and bitter,

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Speaker 1: and we were locked into that and everyone was pretty

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Speaker 1: happy with that. Like I mess with it, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know they're still messing with it today. There's

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Speaker 1: just seen like six seven other candidates for a sixth taste.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that will be happening at some point in

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Speaker 1: near future, don't you think. Yeah? And I think we

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Speaker 1: settled last time on carbon dioxide is going to be

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Speaker 1: the sixth taste? Really really wow, sad. We know it's

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Speaker 1: a good it's a goo and it does some some

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Speaker 1: magic to your tongue. I guess it does, doesn't it?

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Speaker 1: All Right, Well we'll see. Uh so here here's a

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Speaker 1: gentleman that comes along in nine nine and his name

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Speaker 1: is Kakuni Akita? Is that right? Uh? Not bad? What

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Speaker 1: did I get wrong? There's like an extra little half

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Speaker 1: syllable in there. Okay, Well I should just leave the

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Speaker 1: Japanese pronunciations to you. I think you basically knew I

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Speaker 1: should have just kept my mouth shut because it was

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Speaker 1: so close that I've got Europe blocked down? How selfish?

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Speaker 1: Can I be? Right? Exactly? You do? Kekunaya Akada in

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Speaker 1: an Italian accent. I don't think I can't. Just my

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Speaker 1: brain just broke. Uh. So he was a professor of

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Speaker 1: chemistry at Tokyo Imperial University and he was eating some dashi,

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Speaker 1: which is made from seaweed, a kelp called kombu, and

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Speaker 1: he was like, man, uh, this taste meaty, but there's

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Speaker 1: no meat in it, and it's super rich, and there's

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Speaker 1: something going on in here that I don't uh that

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Speaker 1: I can't quite pinpoint, and I think I might be

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Speaker 1: onto something. He said, where's the beef? You might have?

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Speaker 1: He totally did. So this is not like the first

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Speaker 1: time anyone ever realized, like, yeah, there's a there's something,

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Speaker 1: there's such a thing as a meaty taste or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But because we have been so locked into those the

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Speaker 1: idea that there's only four tastes. I mean, I remember

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Speaker 1: going to elementary school and being taught that too in

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Speaker 1: the in the eighties, basically just lied to over and

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Speaker 1: over again. Yeah, no one. No one said umami to

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Speaker 1: me until like even years ago. Basically yeah um. But

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Speaker 1: uh at Kada had figured this out way back in night.

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Speaker 1: He said, no, this is not just some flavor. This

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Speaker 1: is a taste sensation that is not one of the

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Speaker 1: other four. It's its own thing. And even more than that,

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Speaker 1: I've been doing some pretty neat experiments on kombo and

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Speaker 1: dashi and I've actually isolated what's giving this thing. It's

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Speaker 1: meaty taste. And by the way, I'm gonna call meaty

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Speaker 1: taste ou mommy, which means delicious or yummy um. And

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Speaker 1: it's called monosodium glutamate, that's right. Uh. And this was

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Speaker 1: not We knew about glutamic glutamic acid. Which way do

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Speaker 1: you say? Do you prefer glutamic? I mean, my my

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Speaker 1: mouth wants to say glutamic, but my heart wants to

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Speaker 1: say glue to me. My, got you so torn between

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Speaker 1: two lovers? You are just called it G acid? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: g acid. We knew about this stuff already. There was

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Speaker 1: a German chemist name Carl Einrich Rithausen beautiful and he

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Speaker 1: discovered this in eighteen sixty six. So that brings us

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Speaker 1: to another myth Weekend Bust. Here is that gluten like

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Speaker 1: because it's monosodium glutamate. People that have gluten intolerance, I

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Speaker 1: think that it's made with wheat gluten and that they

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Speaker 1: can't eat it. And that's not that's not true at all. No,

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Speaker 1: did you had you heard that before? I've heard I

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Speaker 1: think anything with the letters G l U in any food,

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Speaker 1: I think people that have gluten sensitivity are wary of. Right, Well,

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Speaker 1: what's interesting about this? I hadn't heard that, but this

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Speaker 1: makes total sense. The reason that it's even called glutamic

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Speaker 1: acid is because um Rittenhausen used wheat gluten to He

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Speaker 1: hydrolyzed it, basically broke it down like the acids in

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Speaker 1: your stomach breakdown food, to isolate UM the glutamic acid.

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Speaker 1: Since he used wheat gluten, he just kind of named

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Speaker 1: the acid after what he used the as the the precursor,

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Speaker 1: which was weak gluten. But it has no gluten in.

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Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with gluten. You can get

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Speaker 1: um MSG any number of ways that don't involve wheat

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Speaker 1: to ever. Tell you about the restaurant in Paris, the

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Speaker 1: Gluten Free Place. Emily and I went to, No, you

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Speaker 1: know what the name of it was what no glue, noice? Serious,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty great. Yeah, right in the middle of Paris,

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Speaker 1: and it was actually really good. I had a very

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Speaker 1: very delicious hamburger there. I can imagine, man, French cooking is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: even without gluten. And speaking of French cooking, there is

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Speaker 1: a guy who was using savory. That's what people in

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Speaker 1: the West called it. Even after a Keda came along

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Speaker 1: and said no, no, it's this is your mommy, it's

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Speaker 1: its own thing. The Western chefs were well aware of

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Speaker 1: this idea of savory. They just hadn't said this is

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Speaker 1: a fifth taste that humans are capable of tasting. Um

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Speaker 1: and Augusta Scoffier, who I had heard the name of before,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't realize. Um, he's the guy who basically

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Speaker 1: founded for classical cuisine as we understand it today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was this guy. He invented the sauce. No, no,

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Speaker 1: he invented like French cooking. That was a joke. And

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Speaker 1: French is all about the sauces. It is about the sauce.

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Speaker 1: So yes, I'm sure he had a lot to do

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Speaker 1: with the sauce. But I was reading in an article

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Speaker 1: on him in Britannica and it was written by Nathan Mervold,

387
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Speaker 1: who was the first CTO of Microsoft. But it was

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Speaker 1: about this French cook from the nineteenth century. Yeah, he was.

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Speaker 1: He was big into animal stocks and he used veal

390
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Speaker 1: stock and kitten stock and puppy stock, all sorts of

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Speaker 1: baby animal stocks. Uh. And he knew about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was. We just didn't call it umami until it

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Speaker 1: was so named. No. And also one other thing about

394
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Speaker 1: escofi a. He also used something called Maggie sauce, which

395
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Speaker 1: had been invented several years before by Julius Maggie, who

396
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Speaker 1: was a Swiss miller. Um who came up with the

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Speaker 1: sauce in a scoffier was like, this is the bomb.

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Speaker 1: I think was the quote that he said. Um. So

399
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Speaker 1: people were aware of savory so much so that they

400
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Speaker 1: were creating sauces that really isolated the ommmy flavor. It

401
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: just again was a Kada who came along and said,

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Speaker 1: let's apply some science here. I give you, ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: the fifth taste. That's right. Uh, And it does taste. Um.

404
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: You know, there's a writer name Carla Lali. Music nice,

405
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 1: it's music, but I bet. She pronounces that music I

406
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: would if my last name was music, and she writes

407
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: sometimes for a bon epetite and um. She said, it's

408
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Speaker 1: sort of like salt mixed with the hydrated meat juice,

409
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Speaker 1: and it adds a lot to food. It can you

410
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Speaker 1: don't want too much of it. UM. You you can

411
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Speaker 1: sprinkle it on your food, but you don't really want

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Speaker 1: Like you can buy pure MSG, but it's not the

413
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Speaker 1: kind of thing that people generally do, like at home,

414
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Speaker 1: is by a big tub of MSG, and like sprinkle

415
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: it on stuff. It's usually mixed with other spices, yeah,

416
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: sent um. It can be mixed with other seasoning salt.

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Speaker 1: It gets mixed with most most often UM. And the

418
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: reason that you want to pre mix it is because one,

419
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just easier to use. But there's certain

420
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: proportions you want to use. It doesn't take much MSG

421
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: to bring out the flavor and salt or for MSG

422
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: to kind of even stand on its own and lend

423
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: that umami flavored or whatever you're doing. So you don't

424
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: want to use too much. So you'd have to be

425
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: pretty proficient in you know, using MSG to just use

426
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: straight up MSG, which is why it's usually pre mixed

427
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: to begin with. Yeah, so Ikeda for his uh you know,

428
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: he was a smart guy, so he wasn't just satisfied

429
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: with discovering this and sort of sitting back and said,

430
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: one day on Wikipedia, I will be featured. He said,

431
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make some money off of this. You've got

432
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: a business partner name, so well you should say all

433
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: Japanese names, okay, Sabaro Suzuki Jr. Yeah, so you do

434
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: it with the right flair. I've just been I've been

435
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: os to it so much like, Yeah, I like it.

436
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: I sound like an American and you sound like you're

437
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: trying to fit in. Thank you, thank you. So this

438
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: guy was already a part of the chemical industry, and

439
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: so it was a pretty natural relationship. They founded a

440
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: company called Ajuno Moto the Essence of Taste, and their

441
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: mascot was and is, well that's just okay, the Aji Panda.

442
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: I could have said that. You could have said that.

443
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: But they are still around today, and a couple of

444
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: years ago they they had about ten billion dollars worth

445
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: of sales of MSG. They're the largest producer and they

446
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: are literally pumping this stuff out on a year to

447
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: year basis. Yeah, funny enough. Um, I don't have a

448
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: bottle of accent in my pantry, but I do have

449
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: a bottle of Ado Moto. Oh yeah, yeah. Some listeners

450
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: gonna write and be like, what do you hate America?

451
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: I bet accent is not even made to America. I

452
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: wonder sometimes they do kind of slip it by, like

453
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: it's just been around for along. Everybody thinks like, well,

454
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: that's of course it's America. Yeah, like they chant USA

455
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: when they grab the bottle and sprinkle it on their foot.

456
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: So we should talk a little bit about the science

457
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: of whether or not MSG. You know, is it all

458
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: in people's head? Is it real? I'm really glad you

459
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: asked that, Chuck, I don't. I don't know. Well, I mean,

460
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: here's the deal. The FDA says, I remember, do we

461
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: do one on the f d A. Does the FDA

462
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: protect Americans? That's right, because that's where we remember. This

463
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: phrase generally recognized as safe. Gross. I think that also

464
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: came up in Our Dietary Supplements episode two. Yeah, it's

465
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: it's funny that a phrase meaning something is safe does

466
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: not make one feel any better. Generally, yeah, generally recognized

467
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: the safe does not mean safe and it doesn't mean

468
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: on safe because even though it's fairly settled science, they

469
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: can't say, like, absolutely, no way in in case is

470
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: MSG ever harmful at all to anyone in any amount. Yeah,

471
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: but I mean you can say that about basically anything,

472
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: and I hate I'm not trying to create a straw

473
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: man argument so much. You can say that about water.

474
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: There was a woman who drank too much water and

475
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: die of water toxicity. Um, you can die from too

476
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: much salt. And remember it doesn't take much MSG as

477
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: compared to salt um to be added to food UM

478
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: to to really you know, bring out the flavor or whatever.

479
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: So there's there's like a lot of well you can

480
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 1: basically there's nothing you could say, this is never going

481
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: to harm you, no matter how much you eat. And

482
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of why they're saying generally recognized

483
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: this safe. I think the other aspect of it, though,

484
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: is that a lot of people do want to say, no,

485
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: this is just it's settled. I've seen that all over

486
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: the place while we were researching this is settled science.

487
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: I've read about a woman who wrote a book UM

488
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: exploring whether or not, you know, some food additives were

489
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: safe and she didn't even bother to include MSG in

490
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: the book because she she considered it so so settled.

491
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: But there is definitely a contingency of people out there,

492
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: including not just like worried parents or Facebook dwellers, like

493
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: actual scientists in in like the industry of food sciences

494
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: who are saying no, actually, there may be a small

495
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: group of people out there who experienced these symptoms um

496
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: that we we now call um MSG symptom complex but

497
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: what used to be called Chinese restaurant syndrome. But that overall,

498
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 1: like it's not going to developmentally harm your kid or um,

499
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: it's not going to um blow your brain up because

500
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: it's an excited toxin or anything like that. Yeah, So

501
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: here's the deal on the science. It's it is true

502
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: that increased glutamate activity can cause harm and that large

503
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: doses of MSG can raise the blood levels of glutamate.

504
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: But dietary glutamate, like we'll talk about some of the

505
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: experiments here in a second, but dietary glutamate is not

506
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: going to have any effect on your brain because it

507
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: can't cross the blood brain barrier, uh in large amounts.

508
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: So huh that's right, Oh yeah, for sure. So here's

509
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: the deal. If people experience like headache, muscle tightness, numbness, tingling, weakness, flushing,

510
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: these are all reported like symptoms of that syndrome. Um,

511
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: we're talking about dietary glutamate. Like they say, the threshold

512
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: that could cause those symptoms is about three grams in

513
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: a single meal. But if you remember, we said point

514
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: five grams is a daily average intake, So in a

515
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: single meal, consuming six times the average daily intake of

516
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: MSG could lead to something like that. And they're not

517
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: exactly sure why, but some researchers they, you know, they

518
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: have speculated that really large doses like that, like overdosing

519
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: on MSG, you may get little trace amounts crossing the

520
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: blood brain barrier. Got to that makes sense, and that

521
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: three grams in a single meal is straight up MSG

522
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: fed two people in an experiment who were on an

523
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: empty stomach, So like there's basically no situation where you're

524
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: going to accidentally poison yourself with MSG, so that you

525
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: would actually get that MSG symptom complex, right, And in

526
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: the early seventies, when this stuff started really becoming, like

527
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: you know, the devil spice, they were literally injecting baby

528
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: monkeys and mice with straight MSG and humans and humans,

529
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: and they didn't like it very much because they were

530
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: injecting large amounts of MSG into infant animals. Right, So

531
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: I read that there are pharmacological effects from injecting MSG,

532
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: like that's basically not not up for debate. And I

533
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: was like, well, sure, if you inject sugar or even

534
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: if you inject salt or something like that, you're you'd

535
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: be you know, the same problems. Actually, it's not necessarily true. Um,

536
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: you get kind of saline drips, you get um glucoset trips.

537
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: They're like people do inject salt and sugar and contolerate it.

538
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: So in injected form MSG is not good for you.

539
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: But no one injects MSG. And the fact that we

540
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: metabolize MSG by eating it, and that that's how we

541
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: actually in take MSG in small amounts through food, which

542
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: are guts then metabolized and turn into glutamate and sodium,

543
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: that it should not be harmful for you. That's the

544
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: that's what the science has found. That's right. And in

545
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: addition to these studies that injected baby mice, which is

546
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: sort of ridiculous. Um, these weren't even great studies anyway.

547
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: They were not double blind. Um ed found research that says,

548
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: you know, they were just basically lacking in design altogether. Right,

549
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: So they weren't good studies and they were wacky. And

550
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: how they uh the methodology, I think, well, yeah, which

551
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: is kind of I don't know, I guess it's surprising.

552
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: Maybe just scientists who weren't so great were the ones

553
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: who tended to be interested in it or where they

554
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: were rushing it out to market. I'm not sure. Food

555
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: science was just a little early, maybe so, but they

556
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: they they from the findings they of these early studies

557
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: and then replicated studies of the early studies that found

558
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: MSG to be harmful basically said no, this is not

559
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: this is not harmful. Yeah, probably if you injected, it's

560
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: not good, but don't inject it is is basically what

561
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: science said. And then um, there was there were further

562
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: follow up studies, you know, in the decades that followed

563
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: that said okay, well wait a minute, what about all

564
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: these people who are self reporting MSG allergies, who are

565
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: saying they're getting this complex of system or symptoms from

566
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: eating it like Chinese restaurants or something. Um. And so

567
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: there was investigation of that and what they found from

568
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: those studies is that they basically couldn't get it beyond

569
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: the placebo effect that there were you were just as likely,

570
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: if not in some cases more likely to report the

571
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: the MSG symptoms complex from a placebo then you were

572
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: if you were given actual MSG a pillow with MG

573
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: or something in it. So combined, all these studies combined

574
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: basically led the FDA to say, because the the symptoms

575
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: can't be consistently reliably replicated, and that there's all these

576
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: double blind placebo tests that have been done that show

577
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: placebo can bring it out too, we tend to think

578
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: that it's actually basically in almost everyone's heads, that's right.

579
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: Should we take another break? All right, we'll take one

580
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: final break, and we're gonna come back and talk about

581
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: a few reasons why the MSG scare was born right

582
00:34:52,280 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: after this so chucked um just despite the fact that,

583
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: like there's all the science out there that some people

584
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: are like, this is settled science, Like that is not

585
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: a phrase that even really has any basis in reality,

586
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: But that's that's what they're kind of the point with

587
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: people who say it settled science are saying like this

588
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: is as closest science comes, like it's stopped being afraid

589
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 1: of MSG. There's still plenty of people who don't eat

590
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: M S G who avoid it. I saw that. UM.

591
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: The International Food Information Council did a survey and found

592
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: that of Americans actively avoid MSG like they read labels

593
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: and if the thing says MSG is contained in this,

594
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 1: they they won't need it, which is more than people

595
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: who avoid caffeine, genetically modified organisms, or gluten, which was

596
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: really surprising to me. And when was that? Uh, that

597
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: was Oh man, you're killing me. It wasn't very long ago.

598
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: How about that, Well, it's been since the gluten scare

599
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: has happened. Yes, OK, yeah, I would guess. So, so

600
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: I would say within the last ten years that Paul

601
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: was done. But so there are people who are like,

602
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 1: I don't trust you, I don't trust the FDA. I

603
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: don't like the word that says generally UM. It scares

604
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: me that sometimes MSG is used as a preservative and

605
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: stabilizer in vaccines. I don't like those two being associated

606
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: with one another. Other people say I saw this, but

607
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: I couldn't see it. I saw the same mention basically

608
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: around the internet, and I couldn't find any source material.

609
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: So take this with a grain of salt, as it were,

610
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: but that msg um, the fermentation of MSG produces arsenic

611
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: and lead. People aren't really excited about that kind of thing.

612
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: And then there's that whole other subsection of people who

613
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: are like, it's a it's an excited toxin, and if

614
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: you eat too much of this, your brain is gonna

615
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: blow up. It's basically like a genuine flavor blast, is

616
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: what they're saying. So there are are a lot of

617
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: people who are afraid of msg um. But the question is,

618
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, is it because msg really is harmful or

619
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: is it because it's you know, just a fear of

620
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: science and a distrust of the people who are supposedly

621
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: looking out for our well being well and a holdover

622
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: from the nineties, seventies and eighties when it was uh,

623
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: you know, it was all over the place of something terrible,

624
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: to the extent where restaurants and hotels and a lot

625
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: of them still do have these signs that say no

626
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: MSG like it's safe to eat here. Right. There was

627
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: a book written by a man named Russell Blaylock called

628
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: Excito Toxins Colon the Taste that Kills UH, And there

629
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: were rumors of you know that, you know, uh, Chinese

630
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: restaurants put it in their food because you get filled

631
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: up faster and you won't eat as much off the buffet.

632
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Oh you don't remember hearing that. No, yeah,

633
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: that was a big one. I I just fills you

634
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: up and so or makes you feel full, so you

635
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: know you're gonna get away with thirteen cents less less food, right.

636
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: I've actually seen UM that there there is an idea

637
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: that that um MSG does affect you in that way

638
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,479
Speaker 1: it makes you feel fuller. But from what I'm seeing

639
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: that sciences is bearing out the opposite that they think

640
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: that people who eat MSG tend to be heavier than

641
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: people who don't use MSG because it may suppress lepton,

642
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,479
Speaker 1: which is a hormone that tells us that we're full,

643
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 1: so we stopped eating. So the ideas the more MSG

644
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: you eat the the the less you're going to feel full,

645
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: or you're just not going to feel full and you're

646
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: going to keep eating more, which is a problem because

647
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: from what I'm seeing, you know, the whole like anti

648
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 1: odium thing that's kind of going on among health crusaders. Well,

649
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: UM in very much the same way that corn syrup

650
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 1: was allowed to replace fats in that whole fat free trend.

651
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: MSG is being added in increasing amounts to this low

652
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 1: sodium or even salt free stuff because it brings out

653
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: the flavor and salt. So if you add more MSG,

654
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: you can use less salt and on the package you

655
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: can say lower sodium. You don't say anything about the MSG,

656
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: but you can sell this thing is lower sodium or whatever.

657
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 1: So people who are worried about their harder, worried about

658
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: their salt and take will buy that, not knowing that

659
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: they're eating actually more MSG than they would be and

660
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,720
Speaker 1: that may actually cause them to overeat. If indeed MSG

661
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: is linked to obesity, and the jury is still out

662
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: on that one as well, Yes, very much inconclusive at

663
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: this point. Yes, uh so a lot of this. This

664
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 1: is where the story gets kind of interesting, I think.

665
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: As far as the hysteria around M s G and

666
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: there was the was a letter written to the New

667
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: England Journal of Medicine in n from Dr ho mon

668
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: quak uh kW Okay and he was a senior research

669
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: investigator at a place called the National Biomedical Research Foundation.

670
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: He immigrated from China, and he said, you know what,

671
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: after I eat at Chinese restaurants here in the United

672
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: States Chinese American food, I feel malaise, I feel some

673
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: of these symptoms that people always list out, these adverse reactions. Uh.

674
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 1: And I think I'm speculating here that it's because they're

675
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: using a lot of MSG over here, right, which I

676
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 1: think the implication was they don't really use MSG in

677
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: China because they're better chefs, like good, really good chefs

678
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: kind of look down their nose at using MSG because

679
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: it's a cheat. Um, you can bring MSG out, you

680
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: can bring glutamates out and food through like patient um,

681
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: slow and low hooking techniques, or you can just take

682
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: a shortcut and put a little MSG on it and

683
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: you're gonna get to basically the same place. Right. So,

684
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: in one way, you almost have the idea that he

685
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: was saying, like, Chinese food in China is superior to

686
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: Chinese food in America, but he was saying probably. But

687
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: he was saying, um, like I actually feel physically unwell

688
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: after I eat in Chinese restaurants in America, yeah, exactly,

689
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: which is a big difference than Chinese food in China

690
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: is better than Chinese food in America. Right, And this

691
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: was not you know, a letter to the editor. This

692
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: was published in the New England Journal of Medicine, right

693
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: by a doctor. Yeah, so it was a big deal.

694
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 1: And um, here's what happened after that. Uh, this letter,

695
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: like it was sort of a domino effect and even

696
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: though he was a Chinese American and he had probably

697
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: the best of intentions, it gets picked up and then

698
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there are white people in America

699
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 1: writing racist articles with like broken English headlines, very much

700
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,439
Speaker 1: like making a caricature out of Chinese people, Chinese food,

701
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: Chinese immigrants, Chinese chefs. And it devolved into jokes and like,

702
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: this is the era that we grew up in in

703
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties, where like we remember this stuff. Sure,

704
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: And in very short order, Dr Quac didn't coin this,

705
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: but um, some of the letters, the follow up letters

706
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: in response that the New England Journal of Medicine started

707
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: to print, UM coined this term Chinese restaurant syndrome. That's right,

708
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: where basically, if you aid at a Chinese restaurant in America,

709
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: because of the copious amounts of MSG that was used,

710
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: you could feel weak, lightheaded, your your neck and face

711
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: could feel tight or flushed or both. You might feel woozy, um,

712
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 1: you might have heart palpitations, any number of things, headaches,

713
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: allergies might get set off, your asthma might get set off. Um.

714
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: And all of these things combined came to be called

715
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: Chinese restaurant syndrome. And here's the thing you said it.

716
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: Doctor Quak's letter was a letter. It wasn't a study.

717
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: He didn't say, here's a study, let's peer review it.

718
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: It was a letter that got some response, pretty much

719
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: tongue in cheek, joking responses in the New England Journal

720
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: Medicine and the non medical media saw this and said, oh,

721
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: let's start reporting on this, and started reporting on it

722
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: as if it were scientific fact that MSG caused these

723
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: symptoms and that you would get this from eating at

724
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: Chinese restaurants. That's right. So none of it had to

725
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: do with eating eight pounds of Chinese food at a buffet. Sure. Sure,

726
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: And even Dr Kwak in his letter said, maybe it's

727
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: soy sauce, maybe it's cooking wine, maybe it's um. I

728
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: can't remember. I think the copious amounts of sodium. And

729
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: people even still today say, hey, maybe Chinese food does

730
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: do something to you, but is it possible it's one

731
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: of the spices or herbs or plants that's used extensively

732
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: in Chinese cuisine. Who knows. Yeah, and it you know,

733
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: it can be salty food, especially when you're dumping soy

734
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 1: sauce on top of already salty food. Sure, But the

735
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: point that the point is it's not clear at all

736
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: that there is such a thing as Chinese restaurant syndrome,

737
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: that there is any kind of response that anyone actually

738
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: gets to this, or is it all just the power

739
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: of suggestion? That's right, And the story gets a little

740
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: weirder here as far as this letter goes. So they

741
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: published a letter New England Journal of Medicine, and apparently

742
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: there there's a history there of like joke letters, like

743
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: onion style stuff, I guess, uh, fake syndromes, silly letters.

744
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: A lot of letters in response to this uh quack

745
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 1: letter had this um sort of took this angle where

746
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: they were doing that, and some of them suggested that

747
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: it was a fake letter and the name home man

748
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: Quawk was a pun human croc and it was all

749
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: just cooked up, right, So that's the foundation. Then in

750
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: two thousand teen, Dr Howard Steele, Uh, this guy put

751
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: a response to, I know, to an article about this controversy,

752
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: and he called a reporter and said, you know what,

753
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: I wrote that letter way back then. He said, I

754
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: was trying to win a bet to see if I

755
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 1: could get a fake letter in the New England Journal

756
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: of Medicine. So that became the story for a while

757
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: that this one letter that had kicked off this potentially

758
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: totally unfounded fear of MSG and Chinese food restaurants UM

759
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: had was not only like baseless, but it had been

760
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: written as a prank by a white doctor who made

761
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: up a funny sounding Chinese name, and UM that he

762
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: had basically pranked everyone everyone in America for the last

763
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: several decades. That's how it stood for a little while.

764
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: But it turns out that even that wasn't correct. And

765
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: we have our friends over at this American Life, our

766
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: friend slash Rivals over at this American Life, UM to

767
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: thank for exposing this, Howard Steele dude, because they dug

768
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: in a little further. Yeah, who are you gonna turn to?

769
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: The Podfather? Yeah? Mr Glass, dr Ira Glass the Podfather?

770
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 1: I thought that was maren No. I always called Ira

771
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: Glass the Podfather. Really, Yeah, I always thought you were

772
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: referring to Marin every time. It makes a lot more sense.

773
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: Isn't Adam Curry the podfather? Well? I think technically probably

774
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 1: is that an urban legend that he was the first podcaster? Yeah,

775
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that's gotta be true, right,

776
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: I don't know. It sounds great, so yes, of course

777
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: it has to be true. I mean, Jesse Thorne was

778
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 1: around before Maren. Sure, well we were around before Marin

779
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: were we barely? Just barely. He'll never live it down.

780
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: So in Uh, this was this year in two thousand nineteen.

781
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: As we record this, this American life poked around like

782
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 1: they like to do. They found out that Dr Steele,

783
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: who was dead at this time, was it was kind

784
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: of a real jerk because doctor Quake was a real

785
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: person who was now also dead, and his children are

786
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: not too happy about all this. They confirmed, like, no,

787
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: my dad was doctor Quak. That is his real name. Yeah,

788
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,879
Speaker 1: it's not a joke name. No, he wrote this letter.

789
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: He did work. There is a really a place called

790
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 1: the National Biomedical Research Foundation, Because I guess Steele said

791
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: that wasn't even a real thing, right, he said he

792
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: made up the whole thing, and and this daughter was

793
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: a sort of exasperated, was like, no, that was my dad.

794
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: He worked there, he wrote that letter, and this doctor

795
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: Steele sort of uh like, what's his what's his problem?

796
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: Basically his So his daughter explains on This American Life that, Um,

797
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: her dad was the kind of guy who would just

798
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: play a prank like this, and when he was finally

799
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: found out, we just refused to apologize because you should

800
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: have had your head on straight better and shouldn't have fallen.

801
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: He was that kind of guy. Um. And on the

802
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: one hand, I mean, he was an important physician. He

803
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: apparently invented some um, some orthopedic surgical techniques that are

804
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 1: still used today. Um. But he was also uh kind

805
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: of a jerk from what I can tell. He's pull

806
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: out the chair from under you and you fall on

807
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: the floor, and he's like what you don't reach back

808
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 1: to see if your chairs there? Basically that's kind of

809
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 1: how his daughter portrayed him in a certain way, lovingly

810
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: because it's her dad. But you should you know, did

811
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: you hear that that segment episode? So yeah, it's real

812
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: cringe inducing to hear. Um. Lily Sullivan on This American

813
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: Life break the news to Dr Steele's daughter that like,

814
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: he didn't make up that letter, that he was lying

815
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: about that all these years, She's like, oh God, what

816
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: has he done now? So the uptake of or the

817
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: upshot of all of this is that there was like

818
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: steel really confounds everything. But if you take steel out

819
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: of the equation, what your left was is a Chinese

820
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: American um doctor I think a pediatrician who wrote a

821
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 1: letter back in from what I can tell, very earnestly

822
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: and with good intentions, saying, hey, don't you think this

823
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 1: is weird? What is this kind of thing? Um, Here's

824
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: here's what happens to me when I eat Chinese from America.

825
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: Here's what I think it is that just set off

826
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: this uncritical and um kind of pretty racist examination of it,

827
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 1: that that the whole country just kind of took on

828
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: as fact for decades. And your beloved accent, Chuck, how

829
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 1: does that play into this? Well, I mean I don't

830
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: use it, you well know, but it had been around

831
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 1: for a good twenty years before um doctor Quake's letter

832
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: was published, Right, I'm sure American has been using that

833
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: stuff for ages, right, And no one had ever complained

834
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 1: of any symptoms from MSG It wasn't until that one

835
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: single letter, and that fascinating. What an odd story? You

836
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: got anything else? Now? Okay, Well, if you want to

837
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: know more about MSG, go try Maggie or Combo or

838
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: what was it? Oysters? Sure, tomatoes, cheese. Go try all

839
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: that stuff. You're gonna love it. And since I said

840
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 1: that it's time for listener mail, well you got a

841
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: listener mail follow up, don't you? I do. I have

842
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: two things, Chuck. First, I want to give a little

843
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: heads up to everybody in my Chicago End of the

844
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: World show is coming up on September twelve, and there

845
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: are tickets still available. I'll be at Lincoln Hall and

846
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: you can get tickets at lh dash st dot com. Uh.

847
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: Don't be a jerk and spell out dash. It's just

848
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: the dash symbol. Uh. And then yes, I have an

849
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: update for a listener mail. Do you remember the listener

850
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: mail author Kate who wrote in at the end of

851
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: the Nuclear Semiotics episode. Sure she had said that she

852
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: had under gone like a big breakup and drove from

853
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: Phoenix to Charlotte and listen to us the whole time. Well, uh,

854
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: when we read that, almost immediately we got an email

855
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 1: from another listener named Jeremy who lives in Charlotte, who said,

856
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: sorry to hear about your breakup, but welcome to Charlotte

857
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: from another S Y s K listener, it's a great

858
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. It's a great city, and

859
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: I hope you have a new start, a great new

860
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: start here, which I just thought was so nice that

861
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: I found Kate's original email and got in touch with

862
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: her and just just forwarded just that part, copied and

863
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: pasted it and forward Jeremy's whole email because you know, no,

864
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 1: and I'm glad I'm not trying to pay play matchmaker

865
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: because in response, I got an update from Kate and

866
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: she says, thank you. I'm doing so well now. I

867
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 1: made a new group of friends at my own apartment,

868
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 1: a new teaching job, and I'm even dating someone new.

869
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: It ended up being the best decision I've ever made.

870
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: She said, thank you for sharing my sener mail. You

871
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 1: guys rock and then the metal fingerhand emoji. Is she

872
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: dating the guy? I don't think so. That would have

873
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: been really fast, right, but but um, yeah, well you're

874
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: the one who introduced it. I never said that. I

875
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: think I would just being nice. I think it clearly

876
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: was headed towards a romantic ending. Now, oh oh, sorry,

877
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: I didn't realize. I've seen too many movies. I guess

878
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: I think you have to. You're like, come on, you've

879
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: got mail. All right, Well, I'm glad everyone's happy. Uh.

880
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to end like a Meg Ryan movie. Uh. No,

881
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't, but it sounds like it came pretty close. Actually,

882
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: all right, I love it. Uh So, way to go

883
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 1: Kate and making a bold decision that paid off. So now,

884
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: listener mail or should we or does that count? Should

885
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: we just end? Um? I don't know, man, that's up

886
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: to you. How good is the listener mail? That's pretty good.

887
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and read it. Okay, Uh this is

888
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: from Veronica. She's she said, hey, guys, on the content

889
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: of your show that I love, I hold a special

890
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: place in my heart for the community your show has

891
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: fostered that I experienced at your Chicago show this summer,

892
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: which was just a few weeks ago. I attended that

893
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: show during and by the way, she started listening to

894
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: this show when she was in the sixth grade and

895
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: now she's like a working adult. That's cool. Yes, it's

896
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: it's the best I attended the show in a very

897
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 1: particularly difficult week. My childhood dog of seventeen years had

898
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: passed away that day. I had just moved across the

899
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: country for a job with a lot of new responsibilities

900
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: and challenges, and I was trying to establish some new

901
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: routines in a big city where I knew no one.

902
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: I was sitting in the third to last row of

903
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: that theater with anxiety heavy in my heart, and then

904
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: seeing both of you guys for the first time and

905
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 1: hearing your voices made me feel like everything was gonna

906
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: be okay. It's hard to put into words how tangible

907
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: the happiness and that theater was, And people, if you

908
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: don't go to these live shows, there's tangible happiness there,

909
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: really there is, you know. Yeah, well you have not

910
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: paid this listener to say this or give this testimonial. Yeah,

911
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: come for stuff, you should know. Stay for the tangible happiness, right,

912
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: you can squish it through your fingers like jelly. She said,

913
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 1: I've never been to any sort of event with such

914
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: a joyful crowd. This is amazing, and she capitalized joyful.

915
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: At the end of the show, Chuck talked about his

916
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: late dog Buckley. Remember the last question the night was

917
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 1: this cute little girl who said, which dog who was

918
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: dead do you miss the most? She said it nicer

919
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 1: than that, But I said Buckley, And she said that

920
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: brought me to tears in the theater, not only because

921
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: this was the same name as my own dearly departed

922
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 1: dog who died that day. This has just descended into

923
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: like joyful chaos. I know, right, I can barely hang

924
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: on man. She said. Also, it felt like such a

925
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: weird coincidence of this universe, and I couldn't explain it.

926
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: Having recently graduated college, I'm starting my first job as

927
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: a teacher in fall and attribute a large part of

928
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: my desire to go into education to you guys. Thanks

929
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: for instilling me a love of learning, pursuing intellectual curiosities,

930
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: and sharing those curiosities enjoys along the way with others.

931
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,919
Speaker 1: And she shouts out some friends Caroline VZ in Philadelphia,

932
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 1: Joanne l and Ava Maria Florida. They are two fellow

933
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: stuff you should know enthusiasts. And her name is Veronica,

934
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 1: newly transplanted to Chicago from California. Well, welcome to Chicago, Veronica. Yeah,

935
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to hear about Buckley, but I'm glad that

936
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 1: you could help grieve that loss with friends, joyful friends.

937
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: That's right. Uh, Man, that was amazing. Thanks a lot

938
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: for that letter of Ronica. That was great. Uh. If

939
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with this, like Veronica

940
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: did or Kade or Jeremy, you can go on to

941
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: stuff you Should Know dot com and check out our

942
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 1: social links, or you can send us a good old

943
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: fashioned email, Wrap it up, spank that puppy on the bottom,

944
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: and send it off to stuff podcast at iHeart radio

945
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of

946
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my

947
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

948
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H