WEBVTT - Bill Coore and Jim Craig at Sand Valley 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.040 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:06.440 This edition of the podcast is slightly different as it 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.000 was hosted in front of a live audience at the 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:13.160 Sand Valley Golf Resort in Wisconsin. Bill Corr and Jim 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.520 Craig of renowned Core and Crenshaw Design joined the podcast 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:20.200 to discuss their brand new seventeen hole par three course, 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:24.400 the Sandbox, and their eighteen hole Sand Valley design, as 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.240 well as other topics. The podcast starts with an introduction 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.400 from Sand Valley General manager Glenn Murray. Without any further delay, 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:35.560 Here's Bill Coourr and Jim Craig. 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.720 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:40.839 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:42.239 And when I find my ball. 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.840 In a frid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.160 Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg. 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.239 Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:50.040 golf course. 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.560 I've got the distinct honor to introduce tonight's panel. 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:22.880 You know. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.880 First, I'll start with the team of Core Crenshaw Who 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:32.600 and Craig Who are an acclaimed design firm in the 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.720 world of golf, spanning over the last thirty five years. 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.360 Their record really goes without saying. I could rattle off 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.440 a lot of you know, very renowned courses like the 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:48.920 sand Hills or Banded Trails or stream Song Red or 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.800 Old Sandwich or Cabot Cliffs, and I'm not even doing 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:58.960 that list justice. The thing that really strikes me the 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:03.560 most about your firm is the work ethic. I you know, 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:05.960 as we I've been in the golf industry for the 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:07.760 last twenty years and you work with a lot of 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:12.040 different partners, and your firm works as hard as any 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.520 anyone that I've seen in the industry in my twenty 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.520 year career. The other thing that has always been a 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.320 common theme with working with anybody from Core Crenshaw is 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.000 just how they, you know, treat everybody with you know, 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.720 they treat everybody like ladies and gentlemen. From my Ritz 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:36.080 Carlton background, I certainly had that burned into my training, 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:41.520 but you guys really have that throughout your firm. So 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:46.760 the sandbox open today and Ben Crenshaw had another commitment. 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.040 But as we joke about the Sandbox, we often call it, 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.840 you know, the short name for Core Crenshaw's Ben C 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.200 and C and you know, they often refer to it's 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:00.959 a C and C design, but we've kind of internally 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.160 called it a C, C and C design because Jim 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:09.040 Craig has really been the champion behind bringing this course 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:11.680 to life, and if you had any fun on it today, 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:13.440 I'd like to hear a little round of. 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.639 Applause for that court. 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.840 So while Core Crenshaw's been around for thirty five years, 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.359 there's a new brand in golf that's been growing over 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:35.400 the last two three years called The Friday. So they've 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.920 amassed quite a following in terms of social media and 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.800 blogs and their followers. So I get to introduce our 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.240 moderator tonight. I give him a lot of credit for 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:51.360 following a dream. Had a career in tech, a successful 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:53.920 career in tech, but knew that golf was his real 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:58.160 passion and so he kind of jumped two feet in 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:03.440 to becoming a a golf writer, a golf blogger, and 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.240 he writes on all things about golf and travel, but 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:12.240 he really focuses in on golf course architecture, which is 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.840 what we're here to talk about tonight. So I'd like 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.839 to introduce the founder of The Friday, Andy Johnson. 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.680 All Right, thanks, everybody, and what an honor to be 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:35.760 here with these two gentlemen that have done some incredible 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.520 work across the world. Playing the Sandbox, you get the 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.640 feeling I grew up playing at a UNI course, but 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.240 I also played a par three course down the street, 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:50.560 and it makes me think, you know, when I play there, Wow, 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.080 if I had gotten to play the Sandbox on a 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.480 regular basis, how much more golf I would have played 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.359 as a kid. And I played a lot of golf, 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:02.520 So it's really a great core. I think from just 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.920 hearing people walking around the first tea, walking around the resort, 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:13.400 the biggest question out there is why seventeen holes? 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:21.719 Well, I am going to immediately defer to Jim and 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.919 Michael and Chris Kaiser who were back there in the back, 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.000 because they are the ones who came up with this idea, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.560 because we had just we were finishing the sand Valley 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:36.320 course and the next thing I know, I get a 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.680 call from Jim and he says, you know, Bill, would 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:41.560 you and Ben you know, what do you think about 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.000 a short course here? I said, well, if they think 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:49.159 there's a market for it, absolutely, But I know, particularly Jim, 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.800 I'm going to let you finally answer this. But I 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.800 know particularly you and Michael had had discussions about the 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:02.039 attractiveness or potential attractiveness of that. Now and Ben and 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.120 I just tagged along. Man, We just said, we think 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.520 it's a great idea. Let's see out. Let's see what 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.800 we can do. So Jim, you can, you can explain 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.840 how this idea actually originate. 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.320 A sorry, we're fancy. Yeah, you're good to go. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:20.240 Is it live? 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:20.760 Okay? 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:25.120 Well, thanks for being here tonight. It's nice to see 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.880 all your faces and know that you actually got to 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.600 play out there. Thanks to Glenn and his staff for everybody. 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.320 They do a great, great job here at Sam Valley. 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.039 And I'm glad you guys all came. I think we 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:47.600 should give a nice hand to those guys. I have 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:52.280 no idea how we ended up with seventeen holes. It 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.480 was started to be a part two course. I didn't 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.080 have no idea what a part two courses. I've never 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.960 seen one. We had twenty holes that you could put 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:08.440 to we called it we had twenty twos, and that 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:14.840 didn't work. So Michael is more or less less eighteen 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.560 Well it's too conventional. Well, let's go see how many 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.160 good ones we can find. And we found seventeen good 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:27.480 ones thanks to him. Yeah, I think it's a good call. 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.760 We enjoyed this opportunity to find that many holes. First 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:35.960 of all, is great material out here. It's a wonderful opportunity. 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.480 Well, it's interesting too. I guess the foundation of that 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:46.680 whole concept started with Mike Kaiser, who I remember when 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.200 we were He had the idea that we would do 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.520 the short course the preserve at Bandoned Dunes, and there 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.320 was this triangle of land that overlooked the ocean in 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.640 the dunes that Ben and Mike and I all wanted 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.280 to put into abandoned trails. And we realized if we 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.960 did it, the dunes were very closely configured in terms 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.800 of contours, and if we tried to build regulation length 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:11.640 holes there, we were going to have to bulldoze them 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.640 away to make them work. We thought that site was 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.320 just simply too pretty to do that, so we skipped it, 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:22.080 and it was it was a bit painful to skip 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.760 that and not use it. And then when Mike came 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.760 back a few years later and said, Bill, Ben, would 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.440 I think we need a part three course here for 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.840 people who are coming to play, and just you know, 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.400 there comes a point they can't just walk and play 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.480 thirty six holds a day. He said, I think we 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:41.720 need a Part three course, and I think we all 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.600 know where it should be. He remembered that that particular 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:49.120 piece of ground where Preserve is. But I guess what 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.840 I'm getting to Jim is I remember distinkly the day 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:57.319 Michael Chris that I was with your dad and I said, Mike, 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.240 so you want to build a Part three course. How 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.839 many holes do you want it to be? And he said, 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.120 I don't care. As long as it's not nine or eighteen, 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.600 any other number is fine. Just find the best holes 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.120 you can find and do that and build the holes. 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.120 He said, I don't care if they're sixty yards long 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.960 or one hundred and sixty yards long, but bill holes 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.400 that are good enough that you could take any one 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.560 of them off the Part three course and put it 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.000 on one of the regulation courses and it would be 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.520 very well accepted. So that's when you look back to 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.000 Sand Valley. To me personally, that's where I trace it. 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:37.520 Back to that idea. 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:41.719 And then Michael Chris, you and Jim took that and 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.720 ran with it here and produced what you played today. 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:51.120 So thanks to the success of the Preserve and now 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.960 and many other short courses around the country. It's become 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.800 really a big trend, and I think the demand for 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.920 short courses is up. When you guys go about designing 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.880 a short course, how does it differ from that of 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:05.720 a regular well, I. 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:11.079 Think andy for me, you get an opportunity to do 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.440 some things that you probably would not be able to 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.679 do on a regulation link course. For those of you 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.839 who played today, a prime example of that is the 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.080 third green, which is what we refer to as the 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:29.320 double Plateau green. To those who might not know that concept, 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.200 it's the green out there looks like it's got two 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:35.800 match boxes buried entered with a trough in between. And 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.760 that's a very famous green at the National Golf Links 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.800 in Long Island, and it works. 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:43.000 There on the eleventh hole. 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.080 But generally it's hard to make something that extreme work 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.400 in a regulation golf course, and we just felt like 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.000 that we could do those kind of things on a 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:59.360 short course. And Jim, again leading this whole thing with 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:01.920 the Kaiser family, said let's come up with some of 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.160 the neatest stuff that we've never been able to do. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.839 So it gives us an opportunity from a design standpoint 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.560 to do that, it also gives the opportunity from a 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:16.280 playing standpoint to plague golf in quick fashion and not 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.280 spend half a day or the entire day doing it. 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:21.880 Yeah, that's absolutely right. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:22.800 You know. 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.600 Actually, when we were we were deciding on some holes 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:30.520 out there, I think that you and some extra gentlemen 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.440 over there talked about what we should do for a 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.520 for a trophy for the event out there, and it's 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.080 kind of like the same thing. We had some ideas 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.720 kicking around with a bunch of folks, and you know, 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:43.520 I think that's the way we did here. 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:44.480 We talked to. 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:49.440 The folks around that that that we're all in for 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:50.679 a part three course. 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:52.920 And thought, well, now, what would you like to do 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:55.280 if you had your your pick here. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.520 I'm surprised that we only only kept with seventeen holes 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.280 because if somebody had to say stuff, because I'd probably 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:02.800 still be out there building holes. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.240 But it was a collaborative effort, no doubt. 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:09.440 And I guess andy too. 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.720 From the standpoint if you're in our business, and particularly 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.760 if you're one of the younger guys working in this 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.720 in this business, so much of that time is spent 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.600 just trying to fulfill someone else's concept, or someone else 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.120 as the principal for whom whom you work or something. 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.040 Not so much for Jim, who's worked with us since 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.920 he was five years old. But there was a young 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.320 guy working out here named Ryan Ferrell, who is an 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:44.720 extraordinary background in golf architecture and education and implementation. But 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.800 as we would go through out there, I remember walking 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.079 through and it's the twelfth hole right there. We had 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.560 walked past it numerous times. No one had ever done 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.920 a sketch, no one had ever done a concept for it. 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.280 We just kept walking by it, and finally we walk 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.880 by there one day and Jim and Ryan and are 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.040 walking by and Jim goes, well, what are we going 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:05.560 to do here? 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:07.559 I had no idea. 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.120 I had never even thought about it, and I just says, well, 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:12.800 what we're going to do here is walk to the 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.280 next hole, and Ryan's going to figure out what this 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.640 is going to be. So we kid about it being 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:22.400 the pharaoh Hoe. But you know, that's that's interesting for 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.280 people who are involved in this business of building stuff 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.559 to be able to go I've had an idea, I 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.120 would like to try to implement it, and then to 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.760 implement it and see folks like you come and. 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:34.960 Say that's pretty neat. I enjoyed that. 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.679 So it's a it's far of the really positive aspects 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:39.600 of this whole business. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:40.800 Jim. 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.720 If you ever had an idea that you were really 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.199 nervous to show Bill that, you know, whether it was 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.480 on the sandbox or sand Valley or any other course 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.640 that you know, you had this idea that he was 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.439 just talking about with, you know, Ryan's idea of the whole. 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.560 Yeah, I have. I have. 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.920 It's a pretty regular thing. I have to kind of 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:06.800 ask permission to do much of anything. 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:07.199 Five. 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:11.720 I wasn't really five. I was actually like twenty five, 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.200 but I acted in five. So there's a lot of 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:17.920 that could make you a list of things, you know, 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.920 but the patience that this man has shown me. 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.160 Who you know him? 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.360 How does your day to day work, Jim? How does 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.760 building a green you know, the manner and what you 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:33.280 do it, How does the process work? 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:35.560 Well? 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.360 I think it's it's different. You know, everywhere we go. 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.400 We obviously have good direction. 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:41.680 You know. 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.120 Hogan used to say, you know that the swing was 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.640 nine tenths over it set up, and you know the 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.840 way we've been lucky, you know to have sites that 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:58.760 were you know, very conducive for golf. And and William 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.400 and Ben have always on a way to you know, 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.960 get around that property with with as you know, as 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:10.280 gracefully as possible. So depending on what the materials like, 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.600 it's it's if we could say it's all the same. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.480 We talk about concepts and and the way it would 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.200 would match with what's behind it or what's in front 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.040 of it. And uh, and and we we rough something 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.800 in working at the green, working at all the green sites, 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.560 and and kind of a place to start that may 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.920 move a little bit here or there, but start at 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.200 the green and then and then work backwards, I think 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:37.520 is what we do. 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:37.920 It. 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.360 Sometimes it moves, sometimes it evolves, but it's fun. 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.560 Shane and Michael had a great conversation last night, and uh, 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.320 Michael really talked about how you guys like to use 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:55.120 and highlight the land. What were the core aspects of 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.200 both Sand Valley and the Sandbox that you wanted to 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.560 highlight about the natural features of the land here at 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.440 Sand Valley. 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.760 Oh, I think Andy it was you know, anytime you've 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.880 given the opportunity to work with a truly gifted piece 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:15.840 of property, of property that seems like it can yield 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:17.400 a very interesting. 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.480 Golf course without a lot of alteration. You want to 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:21.000 work with it, not against it. 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.120 So we come with the philosophy, as Jim said that 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.520 we come with no preconceived notions as to what the 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.040 length of the course is going to be, what the 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:31.960 style of the course is going to be, what the 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.120 whatever is going to be. We try to study the 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.040 property and say this is We're going to let this 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.880 guide us in terms of what the course will turn 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.160 out to be. So with sand Valley, I remember out here, 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.200 Ben and I'd be walking with Jim, and you know, 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.120 when it cleared the trees off of it, it took 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.800 on a very similar appearance because it's ridges and valleys, 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.600 and of course it's all sand, so it's happly named 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.440 in that regard. But I remember the first time we 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:06.520 walked through and talking to Jim, man, we're gonna we're 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:08.040 going to have to figure out how to make these 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.520 holes where they don't all look alike, because when you 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.080 started looking at the landforms and the big scale of 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.920 the landforms, it would have been easy to become very 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.720 very repetitive out there run all the holes down the 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:23.240 valleys for example, run on all perpendictor over the hills, 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.199 or whatever the case may be. And so we we 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.399 tried to study and say, all right, if we were 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.639 out here walking around, how would we walk around this 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.400 property without being too physically taxing, and how would we 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.760 then lay holes out that would be different and still 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:42.879 and still interesting but complement this site. So in that case, 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.600 that's that's what we did with Sand Valley. In the 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.919 case of the Sandbox, it was almost the complete opposite. 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:55.159 When Jim said that he and Michael and Chris and 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.680 had been thinking about, you know, the possibility of doing 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.320 the Part three course, went out there and looked. It's 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:06.080 much smaller, it's much smaller scale, it's much flatter, and 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.720 we thought this is perfect because Sand Valley, the golf 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.800 course sand Valley is a big scale. The golf course 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:19.520 Mammoth Dunes is absolutely perfectly named because it's mammoth in scale. 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.720 And so we thought the Part three course, the fact 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.720 that they had chosen this site that was down here, 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.200 much smaller scale, much more intimate, much more level, would 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.439 give the opportunity to do a golf product that was 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.600 completely different than the other courses. So in a sense, 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.800 both of them. The big scale of sand Valley the smaller, 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.639 more intimate scale at the Sandbox was driven by the 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:44.639 sites who were built on. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.919 You've done a lot of work with the Kaisers, and 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:55.680 obviously since nineteen ninety nine when Banded Dunes started, the 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.440 golf industry started to have a seismic shift. Obviously Sand 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.480 Hills was a big part of that. In ninety five, 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.320 what about working with the Kaisers is different than say, 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.040 other clients. 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.960 Oh, this is hard to say, but these guys sitting 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:17.480 in the room, but you got to ask you question. 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.160 Yeah, I know, Andy, you did. You did. 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:27.400 This family has done so much and been so positive 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.639 for golf, not just in America but in the world. 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:36.040 They are changing the way people perceive golf. 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:40.000 People for so many years perceived that the very best 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.480 golf courses in the world were exclusive, they were private, 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.639 they were hard to get, you know, to get access to. 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:53.000 And their whole concept is exactly the opposite. Let's find 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.320 sites that are site driven, not demographically driven. They're driven 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.000 by the contours of the ground to produce the most 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.960 interesting courses, not the population that happens to be or 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:07.399 not be adjacent to it. And so they took that 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.840 concept and then said, and we want it to be 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:15.080 public access. Mike Kaiser was a founding member of the 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:20.159 course we did at Sandhills, and that that in the 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.159 self is special. But the fact that you know, he 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.240 looked and said, I wish, I wish everybody could see 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.800 the Sandhills. I wish you could could happen. But then 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.399 to say, now my family and I are going to 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.560 go try to present opportunities for people to experience that 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.879 type of golf, but do it in a in a 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:46.359 public access arena is truly special. And you know, in 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:50.600 our business, Nandy, the best you, the greatest thing you 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.960 could ever hope for, is to be given a truly 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.800 special site and the freedom to work with it, not 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.360 work for an owner who lords over you and says 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:03.800 I want this, I want that that's going to be this. 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:08.040 I don't like that that type thing. And and Mike 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:13.480 and now Michael and Chris and the family, they don't 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.280 do that. They give you the opportunity to work with 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:20.840 something extraordinary and the freedom to work with it. And 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:25.440 are they involved, absolutely, And that's the for the betterment 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:30.359 of each project. But I think history will record that 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:36.080 this family will be hugely impactful in the in the 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:40.600 evolution of golf in the most positive way. And I 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:46.080 you know, Michael Chris, I've said to your dad numerous times, Mike, 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:52.359 you've given us so many opportunities, maybe it's time for 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:59.600 somebody else to get the experiences. And Michael and Chris's 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.359 dad same age. I am so we you know, we 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:04.840 kind of look at each other and and he does 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:09.320 they do. They're giving opportunities for younger architects and different 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.360 people to be experienced. But at the same time, once 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.160 a while, Michae Lexeme goes, Bill, I'm getting old, I'm 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.400 kind of getting set in my ways, and I go 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:21.679 there's a part of me feels guilty about that, and 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:23.520 there's another part that. 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:25.000 Just goes, thank you Lord. 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.520 We're just gonna follow these people wherever they want to go, 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:30.160 as long as they want us. 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.200 I imagine, like we talked about this when we talked 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.359 earlier about when Dick Youngskap called you about sand Hills, 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.560 like you want to build in Nebraska. When when they said, hey, 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:44.439 we got a great site in central Wisconsin. What was 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:45.760 your immediate reaction. 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.840 Well, my metior action is Mike on the phone was Mike. 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:56.600 The last time I looked, I didn't see an ocean 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.800 next to Wiscon And now maybe at one time, many 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.399 millennia ago, there was, but I just don't see it 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:09.960 there because Mike had told me through the years, he said, 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:12.119 I'm only going to go where I can find sand 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:15.640 next to the ocean, dunes next to the ocean. That 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:22.000 was the cornerstone and the thing that he looked for most. 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:26.280 And so coming here was a bit of a not 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:28.760 just a leap, but it was it was off on 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:32.800 a different tangent. And Craig Halton, who's out here, who 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:38.840 came and discovered this property through research, through the you know, 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:42.320 over the entire state of Wisconsin to find a sand 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:47.800 site and then was able to meet one person in particular, 0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:53.240 Australian guy whom we both know, but who who said 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:57.000 this could be neat and introduced him to Mike. And 0:23:57.040 --> 0:23:59.639 I remember Mike telling me he said, Bill, I'm going 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.040 to go look at the sight up in Wisconsin. 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:04.320