Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like
Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information
Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success.
Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us
Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get
Speaker 1: this started. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the
Speaker 1: Market Disruptors podcast. Today I am sitting down with Olga
Speaker 1: mac and she is the VP of Strategy at quantz Stamp.
Speaker 1: They look at smart contracts and we dive into smart contracts,
Speaker 1: what they are, why they're important, how they're being used,
Speaker 1: problems that we could find with them, and how we
Speaker 1: can mitigate the risks. So much good information in this
Speaker 1: that you need to hear about smart contracts, which really
Speaker 1: the whole system revolves around. So let's go ahead and
Speaker 1: just jump right into with Olga. Everyone, Welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today, I am joined
Speaker 1: by Olga and she is the VP of Strategy at
Speaker 1: quant Stamp. She's a co author of a book, The
Speaker 1: Fundamentals and Smart Contract Security UM. She's an attorney by trade,
Speaker 1: but she's also been kind of in the digital Space,
Speaker 1: Payment Space worked with Visa in the past, a really
Speaker 1: unique perspective and I'm excited to have you on OLGA.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining time Market's fantastic to be here.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you're in white. All right, So, UM, we
Speaker 1: got a lot to talk about today. UM, but why
Speaker 1: don't you just kind of frame it up a little
Speaker 1: bit UM for those that don't know, I mean, I
Speaker 1: gave you a good intro, but for those who don't know,
Speaker 1: tell us who you are, kind of what you've been doing,
Speaker 1: how and how you get to the space, and specifically
Speaker 1: what you're doing now. So, as you mentioned, I'm a
Speaker 1: VPF Strategy at quant Stamp. Quan Stamp is on the
Speaker 1: interstection of blockchain smart contracts and security. Way make sure
Speaker 1: that the smart contracts that companies and projects put out
Speaker 1: in the world, UM that they're secure and that the
Speaker 1: assets that people put in them are not stolen or
Speaker 1: locked out. Uh So, to the extend you care about
Speaker 1: your assets, UM, I highly recommend thinking about how secure
Speaker 1: they are. UM. As as you mentioned in my prior lives,
Speaker 1: I have been uh an attorney, I've been at numerous startups.
Speaker 1: I've also been a big company such as Visa and
Speaker 1: law firms. I am a tech lawyer by design. UM.
Speaker 1: I've been on the cutting edge of various technologies, and
Speaker 1: I've been always on the privacy security side. So those
Speaker 1: are sort of my passions. They seem to be very
Speaker 1: combineable in blockchain and crypto, and I'm really excited about
Speaker 1: the space. Yeah, so that's interesting. So your background being
Speaker 1: in tech UM security and privacy UM, which I would
Speaker 1: imagine would have been would was a challenge in the
Speaker 1: more centralized days and today with a new technology because
Speaker 1: I give you like a lot of new tools that
Speaker 1: you can use to really help the privacy and security piece.
Speaker 1: So you have the right security and privacy and not
Speaker 1: new challenges. We've had them for a while. We had
Speaker 1: them before Internet, We've definitely had them during Internet, and
Speaker 1: we will have them in web to three point oh
Speaker 1: and and and and more. UM. Those are challenging their
Speaker 1: evolving challenges UM, and they with every technology, you have
Speaker 1: different different flavor of challenges and so it's really fun
Speaker 1: to see the evolution of the challenge. It's also fun
Speaker 1: to see the evolution of solutions, and frankly, it is
Speaker 1: also fun to see UM how other people who challenge
Speaker 1: space the crooks because they have access to the same
Speaker 1: technology and um and and it is an ongoing, evolving
Speaker 1: space for everyone. Yeah. So one piece of the space
Speaker 1: that I'm super interested in and everybody should because it's
Speaker 1: really the lynch pin maybe for the whole space, is
Speaker 1: just the smart contract piece. And so I wanted to
Speaker 1: spend some time talking about that. UM. And as you
Speaker 1: mentioned with quans stamp, you're looking at smart contracts security. UM.
Speaker 1: Now when we were talking before we started, you said
Speaker 1: it's it is the space, right, so it kind of
Speaker 1: is everything. UM, So maybe just tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit kind of like what smart contracts are and how
Speaker 1: they're being used and why they're so important. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: smart contracts are you know, that's sort of a still
Speaker 1: a name. As everyone knows, they're not smart you know, Mark,
Speaker 1: you're very smart. Um, they're not that kind of smart. UM.
Speaker 1: And they are not really contracts. They're not they're not
Speaker 1: a bunch of legalies where you sign your name at
Speaker 1: the bottom. What they are they are pieces of code.
Speaker 1: And those pieces of code do three things. They store rules,
Speaker 1: they verify rules, and they sell execute rules. So they
Speaker 1: do those put the functions U and many folks compare
Speaker 1: them to vending machines. So if I would like to
Speaker 1: have a snack of choice, I go to a vending machine,
Speaker 1: I put a dollar. Um Uh, it stores rules that
Speaker 1: if you put a dollar, you get as knack of choice.
Speaker 1: Once I put a dollar, it verifies that this dollar
Speaker 1: is correct and that I meet the amount and then
Speaker 1: tower while a beautiful moment, I get my snack of choice.
Speaker 1: So that's like, it's like logic, right, if this, then
Speaker 1: that this, then that it's and and they get very
Speaker 1: powerful when uh, there's more than one smart contracts and
Speaker 1: it is a back and technology, most consumers do not
Speaker 1: see it. If it's done right, and it's highly combinable
Speaker 1: with other technologies like data or AI. And in fact,
Speaker 1: when you combine that, that what makes it super powerful.
Speaker 1: Um and so that that's the technology, and it can
Speaker 1: power quite a few things, and exciting applications are possible
Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, I've heard, you know, I get a
Speaker 1: lot of questions about smart contracts, and people think they're
Speaker 1: going to replace like law firms and things like that.
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's quite it, right, So it's
Speaker 1: more about logic, if this than that and the more
Speaker 1: about the way things can kind of work together and
Speaker 1: not so much like rule or govern over things. Is
Speaker 1: that is that about? Right? Um? Let me I I
Speaker 1: have a little bit more. You you sort of right,
Speaker 1: but let me give you one nuanced way of looking
Speaker 1: at it. Um, there is a world of smart contracts.
Speaker 1: Let's sort of imagine the event diagram. There is a
Speaker 1: world of smart contracts, and there is a word of
Speaker 1: legal contracts, and imagine that those are two circles, and
Speaker 1: there is an overlap. So there are some legal contracts
Speaker 1: that may be replaced by smart contracts. And there's also
Speaker 1: some smart smart contracts that are not legal contracts. And
Speaker 1: there are some legal contracts that are not smart contracts,
Speaker 1: so there could be an overlap. And uh, there is
Speaker 1: a really great white paper by the Chamber of Digital
Speaker 1: Commerce to what extent if the contract legal contract becomes
Speaker 1: smart contract, whether it's enforceable um. And there are a
Speaker 1: number of law of view articles and there in a
Speaker 1: white paper, and most scholars and practitioners agree that should
Speaker 1: this become a legal issue, it is highly likely those
Speaker 1: legal contracts will be enforceable UM if they're executed by
Speaker 1: smart contracts. However, you are correct that most smart contracts
Speaker 1: are not legal contracts. They're just pieces of code. And
Speaker 1: the beautiful thing about those pieces of code and the
Speaker 1: reason why smart contracts are in my view, the application
Speaker 1: of blockchain is that they embody sort of traditional business lodger,
Speaker 1: any business, any function sort of operates on EVE then
Speaker 1: E then statements uh, and smart contracts are sort of
Speaker 1: an opportunity to to uh combine it all together and automated.
Speaker 1: And so that's why you see most applications of smart
Speaker 1: contracts at this time in in inefficiency type of space,
Speaker 1: in making things better, faster, reduced paperwork, cheaper, those types
Speaker 1: of things. That is the first wave of application of
Speaker 1: smart contracts. My prediction that we're gonna be in this
Speaker 1: space for a while um, and that would actually fuels
Speaker 1: adoption and curiosity by many enterprises. But I think over time,
Speaker 1: especially combined with other with other technology and data, um, you,
Speaker 1: we will be able to solve what I call unsolvable problems,
Speaker 1: problems that we sort of gave up solving or didn't
Speaker 1: even think that other problems. Uh. And the next wave
Speaker 1: of innovation will be combining the technologies and completely rethinking
Speaker 1: how we do business. Yeah, so if if I have
Speaker 1: this right, then you said, there's like the there's like
Speaker 1: the legal contracts and the smart contracts. So legal contracts
Speaker 1: are ones that might need to be decided on by somebody, right,
Speaker 1: So like you and I have a business contract and
Speaker 1: there's a breach and we have to go before arbitrator,
Speaker 1: judge or something to rule over that contract, versus like
Speaker 1: a smart contract, it's something that would be decided on
Speaker 1: by the code, right, and it would, And so it's
Speaker 1: really more about ways that things are working together and
Speaker 1: not like the legal contract that that would be a
Speaker 1: different way, because like laws, like something that's argued it
Speaker 1: over right and sometimes decided on. If some parts of
Speaker 1: legal contracts could be automated, and some contracts legal contracts,
Speaker 1: anybody whoever negotiated a ligal contract know that they're often
Speaker 1: deliberate gray areas because parties may or may not know
Speaker 1: what's gonna happen in the future and may want to
Speaker 1: be able to argue about that future. So to the
Speaker 1: extent you want to have a bright line and self execution, um,
Speaker 1: you may want to put smart contracts on that function.
Speaker 1: And to the extent you may want to have a
Speaker 1: gray area maybe not, So there's sort of benefits to
Speaker 1: both those decisions to be made. So let me give
Speaker 1: you an example. Sometimes, you know, if you are clear
Speaker 1: about what performance leads to payment, you may want to
Speaker 1: put it on a smart contract just to make sure
Speaker 1: that you don't have to invoice and you automatically get payments.
Speaker 1: In supply chain, you often have this kind of UM
Speaker 1: records that have to be submitted for the objects to
Speaker 1: move through summers and so if you want to automate
Speaker 1: that function UM and you get various clearances and various permissions,
Speaker 1: if those are automatically submitted, the they you have automatic
Speaker 1: execution of the function. So some things that are are
Speaker 1: great to be for to be put on smart contracts, uh,
Speaker 1: and some things that are probably still gonna be part
Speaker 1: of our legal universe. Sure. So um as as part
Speaker 1: of Quanstamp, you're looking over smart contracts and helping to
Speaker 1: make sure they're secure and stuff like that. So I'm
Speaker 1: guessing you're you're really at the forefront of these smart
Speaker 1: contracts and really seeing what's going on. So how are
Speaker 1: they being used today, Like what's really happening today or
Speaker 1: what's what's right on the verge, like what's kind of
Speaker 1: like this next wave of worre smart contracts you're really
Speaker 1: gonna be making an impact. So you know, look, I
Speaker 1: mean it's a little bit hard because, uh, blockchain smart
Speaker 1: contracts attaching many industries, and it's a little bit hard
Speaker 1: to say who is a little bit for their head there,
Speaker 1: you know, that is changes somewhat they date. We do
Speaker 1: know that blockchain is smart contracts, you know, have sort
Speaker 1: of a very obvious financial implications, and bitcoin being one
Speaker 1: of the sort of first application and various other financial
Speaker 1: players adopting the technology quickly, more quickly than others, you know,
Speaker 1: suggest that that's sort of an obvious place and we
Speaker 1: see quite a lot of development, um But there are
Speaker 1: other applications, you know, Uh, supply chain, the industry I
Speaker 1: just mentioned has had quite a lot of progress as well.
Speaker 1: IBM is doing quite a lot of work in it,
Speaker 1: Oracle is doing quite a lot of work in it,
Speaker 1: and many many other companies. Um. So sufflically, change space
Speaker 1: is like just one area that's really using it. I
Speaker 1: think also the decentralized finance space would be another area
Speaker 1: that was probably using a lot of smart contracts as well. Right,
Speaker 1: So yeah, decentralized finance. UH is part of the sort
Speaker 1: of finance trend that I just discussed. Yes, that that
Speaker 1: is the number one applications at this time, but there
Speaker 1: are other areas and and logistic is another one. But
Speaker 1: you also see it in in numerous others. Okay, I'm curious.
Speaker 1: You know, in in we kind of saw the protocol
Speaker 1: wars where we had you know, Ethereum came up as
Speaker 1: a smart contract platform, and then we had all these
Speaker 1: other smart contract platforms that came out. Um. What about Bitcoin?
Speaker 1: I've heard, you know, there's talk about you know, side
Speaker 1: chains and things like that where people are starting to
Speaker 1: do smart contracts. Are you seeing any of that? Can
Speaker 1: you comment on any of what may or may not
Speaker 1: happen with smart contracts on the Bitcoin either probably side
Speaker 1: chain or something federated chain. We see many folks dabble,
Speaker 1: and smart contracts one of them. They are numerous others. Um.
Speaker 1: I think we see the world where because smart contracts
Speaker 1: functionality is so powerful and it embodies traditional business logic UM,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people realize that and so UM
Speaker 1: without specifically commenting on what bigpoint our theorem does, UM,
Speaker 1: I think we'll see the world where that functionality will
Speaker 1: be embedded in many platforms because it is so powerful,
Speaker 1: because it is so cool too many businesses, and I
Speaker 1: think there is realization. I think the challenge for the
Speaker 1: technology at this time is that looking forward, that we're
Speaker 1: gonna have numerous platforms embed that functionality. How do we
Speaker 1: make sure that those platforms talk to each other? Um,
Speaker 1: that is an interesting challenge yourself. But yes, I think
Speaker 1: I think it's smart, smart conscious functionality. And if you
Speaker 1: look for example at at um uh patenting a smart
Speaker 1: contract functionality is one of the top five functionalities that
Speaker 1: are being patented in the United States and China, which
Speaker 1: leads patents in blockchain. And so my prediction that smart
Speaker 1: contracts will continue being the for functionality and that we
Speaker 1: will also need to solve a challenge of platforms talking
Speaker 1: to each other. So then, um, in the future, at
Speaker 1: some point in the future. UM, you think this argument
Speaker 1: right now of bitcoin versus all all coins is uh,
Speaker 1: smart contract platforms can run small cartracks, Bitcoin can't. But
Speaker 1: you think there's a future where Bitcoin runs smart contracts
Speaker 1: just like other platforms do. In some way or another.
Speaker 1: I think there is a future for manual platform to
Speaker 1: have a functionality related to smart contracts, and I think
Speaker 1: it's an evolving field. It's definitely an experimental technology at
Speaker 1: this point. A lot of new stuff is, frankly even today,
Speaker 1: is coming out from universities like the University of Waterloo, Stanford,
Speaker 1: m I t H, University of Singapore. So it's a
Speaker 1: highly experimental technology and we'll see more and more we developed. Yes. Okay, Now, um,
Speaker 1: you had said when I want, I think before we
Speaker 1: started the actual show. Um, I had mentioned where I
Speaker 1: said it's a big piece and said smart contracts are
Speaker 1: actually the piece. Um, so what do you mean by that? Like,
Speaker 1: why is it? Why are smart contracts so important to
Speaker 1: this entire ecosystem? Uh? I think it's because it really
Speaker 1: under pains and I think we've never looked the way
Speaker 1: we do business that smart contracts just embodies logically how
Speaker 1: the business has done a lot of business. If you
Speaker 1: ever worked for an enterprise or any company, a lot
Speaker 1: of business could be reduced to a bunch of evvent statement.
Speaker 1: You pay me, If you pay me, I'll give you services.
Speaker 1: If I give you services, we're then I have relationship. Right.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of event statements embedded just sort
Speaker 1: of by default. And so smart contracts the reason they're
Speaker 1: so powerful is because we have many enterprises, because we
Speaker 1: have many services, we have many instance statements, uh, sort
Speaker 1: of assumed in our daily lives and our businesses, and
Speaker 1: smart contracts can very easily or more easily than other
Speaker 1: things automade that. Yeah, Okay, it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: bunch of systems. So like the best businesses in the
Speaker 1: world really build the best systems. Um. Think of like franchises,
Speaker 1: where like something has always done the same way, if this,
Speaker 1: then that right. So um, So if that's the biggest
Speaker 1: piece of the system, um, which I agree with you, right,
Speaker 1: I mean in order for all this to work, we
Speaker 1: have to have that smart contract, that logic in there. Um.
Speaker 1: But if if that's big of if it's that big
Speaker 1: of a piece, then it's it's important that we get
Speaker 1: it right. And I think that's where quand Stamp comes
Speaker 1: into to like look at these smart contracts and see
Speaker 1: problems that maybe there. I know, throughout history we've seen
Speaker 1: some big problems, right, so I think there was the
Speaker 1: Ethereum one, there was this parody one, right, so we've
Speaker 1: seen big problems with smart contract failures and um, I
Speaker 1: guess you guys are trying to help solve that problem.
Speaker 1: Is that correct? So let's let me talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about what could possibly go wrong. Yeah, smart
Speaker 1: contract because you know, on the one hand, day in body,
Speaker 1: business logic, and they're super powerful. I think of them
Speaker 1: as a very very sharp knife. Um. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: remember they are pieces of code. And who writes pieces
Speaker 1: of code? Humans? Humans right code? And so what is
Speaker 1: the problems with people doing things? Well, the problem is
Speaker 1: that humans people professional error probe, they make mistake and
Speaker 1: so what we see and the classic example, you know
Speaker 1: you mentioned parity as I'll mentioned something else, The classic
Speaker 1: one is a doubt problem. One little miss step in
Speaker 1: a code, one little mistake can have millions of dollars disappear,
Speaker 1: and people will you know, if you ever talk to
Speaker 1: somebody who has been affected by this problem. For example,
Speaker 1: our founder a Quantum, one of the reasons he founded
Speaker 1: this company is because he has been affected by this problem.
Speaker 1: If you if you ever talk to somebody or who
Speaker 1: was part of thou Um, you know what how and
Speaker 1: is that money was disappearing. Folks have been watching at
Speaker 1: real time and they could do absolutely nothing about it.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like witnessing and violence against yourself. You
Speaker 1: just stand there smile, right, and it doesn't matter how
Speaker 1: much money people lost. People who were part of it
Speaker 1: have a very almost primitive reaction to this violence, right
Speaker 1: to this funds disappearing in front of their eyes, and
Speaker 1: that that was very disturbing, right, and they couldn't do
Speaker 1: much about it. So that is the challenge with smart
Speaker 1: contract is that on the one hand, they're very very powerful.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, they are created by humans. Humans
Speaker 1: make mistakes, and so there your funds can be locked out,
Speaker 1: your funds can disappear, your assets, right and remember which
Speaker 1: you can put on a smart contract doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be financial asset. It could be any asset. It could be,
Speaker 1: for example, a real estate asset. It could be August reputation,
Speaker 1: August privacy because that's an asset as well. So they
Speaker 1: store assets that are quite valuable. And so it's important
Speaker 1: to make sure that there's no code problems because those,
Speaker 1: especially in public blockchains, they are open. The code is
Speaker 1: open to two for everyone to see um and there
Speaker 1: are people who are really good at finding the crooks,
Speaker 1: finding the challenges the code and taking advantage of it
Speaker 1: and so yes, on the one hand, it's a powerful knife,
Speaker 1: but that knife could be used to to cure and
Speaker 1: that knife could be used to kill. Um. And so
Speaker 1: it's very important to use this tool in an intentional
Speaker 1: way and take precautions. It's a you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: no different. It's a it's an age old problem. Right.
Speaker 1: You have bankers, and you have bank robbers, and the
Speaker 1: banks are trying to stay a step ahead of the robbers.
Speaker 1: Or we have virus makers and anti virus makers and there,
Speaker 1: and it's always this race. And UM, remember when I
Speaker 1: said that, you know, the good guys and the bad
Speaker 1: guys have access to the same technology, right Exactly, I
Speaker 1: can understand the challenge you must have or our company,
Speaker 1: like Content might have, um in a sense where all
Speaker 1: this code is written by humans, and everybody writes it
Speaker 1: a little bit differently. Um. And then there's all these
Speaker 1: different platforms and languages to write it on, so there's
Speaker 1: like a limited amount of combinations. UM. So I could
Speaker 1: understand it. It could be very difficult. Uh. Could you
Speaker 1: talk at all about maybe a process of how you
Speaker 1: do that or how that's done? Yeah? So, um. Actually,
Speaker 1: so that while there's a potentially infinite number of combinations.
Speaker 1: We also know that some smart contracts are more tested
Speaker 1: than others, so there are increasingly number of templates and
Speaker 1: best practices that are emerging to help developers to write
Speaker 1: smart contracts that they don't have to recreate the wheel
Speaker 1: every time because some smart contracts are already tested and
Speaker 1: so there are organizations that put out templates. We created
Speaker 1: a Smart Contract Security Alliance where we work with enterprises
Speaker 1: and project to put out best practices. So that is emerging.
Speaker 1: There will be more and more of it because you know,
Speaker 1: just like lawyers don't have to write every contracts from
Speaker 1: scritches because many clauses have been litigated. Uh, similarly, developers
Speaker 1: don't have to write a code from scritch and they
Speaker 1: can take advantage of the code and it makes it
Speaker 1: much easier for auditors to double check. But part of
Speaker 1: developing safe smart contracts or any code, especially if it
Speaker 1: houses assets, is to basically go through the process of
Speaker 1: of audit, and we provide that service. We're also building
Speaker 1: protocols and tools to make sure that the that smart
Speaker 1: contracts can be checked for vulnerabilities at scale, because if
Speaker 1: you imagine the world that will be dominated by smart
Speaker 1: contracts because if then it is so embedded in our
Speaker 1: collect the logic, then it's very important to get to
Speaker 1: the point where you can just sort of take all
Speaker 1: your smart contracts, put them in the black box and
Speaker 1: make sure that you're safe. Right, that's the ideal world.
Speaker 1: So we are building those tools, We are building those
Speaker 1: protocols in the meantime as this technology developed, and as
Speaker 1: we're building, were also providing services. And we're not the
Speaker 1: only ones. There are other people who do this. They
Speaker 1: all have slightly different UM method that I'm doing it.
Speaker 1: I personally like the way we're doing it. We have
Speaker 1: a number of PhDs from the university or Waterlook who
Speaker 1: dedicated their life to studying, understanding developing smart contracts. So
Speaker 1: the way we do audits is that we basically take
Speaker 1: smart contracts and give it to three people to audit independently,
Speaker 1: and then they compare results and UH compete as to
Speaker 1: who's gonna find most vulnerabilities. We find that through that process, UM,
Speaker 1: we we get it, get it right, and we get
Speaker 1: really good results UM. And then we also in the
Speaker 1: process educate our clients, helped them at that better practices UM,
Speaker 1: and just generally be safer. Yeah, I think, Um, it
Speaker 1: opens up a lot of conversation that we maybe haven't
Speaker 1: had in the past. Um but but but maybe we
Speaker 1: should have. So obviously we talked like I just mentioned
Speaker 1: viruses and things like that we've seen recently, Um like uh,
Speaker 1: all these uh, these hacks where they've locked the computers right,
Speaker 1: locked the data. I think the City of Baltimore just
Speaker 1: like had their whole system locked and they had to
Speaker 1: pay the ransom. And those are like vulnerabilities and Microsoft software.
Speaker 1: I believe that the NSA knew about and exploited whatever.
Speaker 1: Won't get into that, but my point is it was
Speaker 1: it was it was a bug, if you will, or
Speaker 1: some sort of a something in the Microsoft software that
Speaker 1: allowed these hackers to get in and locked that system down.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of similar, right, So, just like Microsoft
Speaker 1: should be responsible to make sure the code can't be hacked,
Speaker 1: the smart contract people need to also be responsible to
Speaker 1: make sure their code isn't hacked. Kind of the same thing, right.
Speaker 1: Human error. Humans are good at developing avel solutions, and
Speaker 1: they are prone to error, and sometimes small errors are costly,
Speaker 1: and there's always people that are motivated defining those errors,
Speaker 1: and there are people who motivate their crooks who want
Speaker 1: to exploit them. It is not to say that we
Speaker 1: should not be developing technology. It is not just say
Speaker 1: that we should hide our money or assets under the mattress.
Speaker 1: It is to say that we should we should approach
Speaker 1: technology was our eyes open and we know that humans
Speaker 1: make mistakes, and that means we should double check what
Speaker 1: humans do. Yeah, yeah, I think, Um, you know so
Speaker 1: so knowing that those types of problems already exist today, Um,
Speaker 1: we're we're kind of aware of that. But now we're
Speaker 1: talking about like money or wealth or value, whatever you
Speaker 1: want to call it, whether it be intellectual property or whatever.
Speaker 1: But when you're talking about money, I mean now we
Speaker 1: have huge, huge sum at risk and so it just
Speaker 1: requires extra extra you know. So I like to talk
Speaker 1: about assets and remember those assets that held by smart contracts,
Speaker 1: maybe money. They could be tangible assets like real estate.
Speaker 1: They could be intangible one. They could be all us reputation.
Speaker 1: That could be all us privacy, all us intellectual property.
Speaker 1: So those types of things. So I tend to think
Speaker 1: of them as more as assets, and people care about
Speaker 1: their assets, whether they're tangible and tangible monetary or has
Speaker 1: the rights. Sure, Yeah, that's a that's a great point.
Speaker 1: That's that's a great point. So, um you talked about
Speaker 1: UM you guys started like some foundation or organization or
Speaker 1: something like that. I'm curious is there or is there
Speaker 1: now or will there be some sort of uh maybe
Speaker 1: like a rating agency where like UM, companies can be
Speaker 1: more trusted than others. I mean, I know we're really
Speaker 1: in the infancy right now and maybe it's not established,
Speaker 1: but do you think there's a way where the consumer knows, Okay,
Speaker 1: these guys are more trusted reputation wise than others. We
Speaker 1: I can tell you that what today when we are projects,
Speaker 1: we provide reports to those companies and projects that we've
Speaker 1: done it. Many of them really like it. Our reports
Speaker 1: are highly comprehensive. They rate all kinds of challenges that
Speaker 1: could possibly go wrong, give feedback, and they rate whether
Speaker 1: or not those challenges are life threatening or kind of
Speaker 1: nice you have, So we probably quite a lot of feedback.
Speaker 1: We know that companies like it will also know that. Frankally,
Speaker 1: regular regulators in many countries like ASTI. Well, UM, we've
Speaker 1: received main requests for which you just basically described as
Speaker 1: sort of very signed for blockchain. We are deeply aware
Speaker 1: with UM understand that this is an emerging technology. It
Speaker 1: is changing day by day. But we know that we
Speaker 1: our reports are reports after we audit. Smart contracts are
Speaker 1: basically hashed on blockchain if client wants and and so
Speaker 1: there is an opportunity to provide that UM kind sumer
Speaker 1: reassurance that UM that smart contract that they're using. UM. Okay,
Speaker 1: So for the for the average like I said, consumer
Speaker 1: consumer assurance, like, UM, you know a lot of these
Speaker 1: smart contracts are inconsequential UM, And I don't really care.
Speaker 1: You know, if if a supply chain management smart contract
Speaker 1: doesn't work and maybe an invoice gets mixed up. I
Speaker 1: mean that's not the end of the world. UM. If
Speaker 1: I have a million dollars sitting in my DeFi account
Speaker 1: and that that gets exploited, and that's a whole different
Speaker 1: thing to me. UM. So seen as uh, seeing as
Speaker 1: we're getting more and more assets, wealth value, whatever you
Speaker 1: want to call them, put onto these smart contract platforms, UM,
Speaker 1: what do you think some of the risks are that
Speaker 1: that people should be aware of, that we should be
Speaker 1: watching out for. Well, there's gonna it's a develop it's
Speaker 1: a developing technology. There's numerous risk it's evolving. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe being a smart consumer is really a prudent thing. UM.
Speaker 1: I'm not so considered to tell you do not use
Speaker 1: this technology because I love this technology. I think it's
Speaker 1: a powerful technology. But understand it is a developing technology.
Speaker 1: A lot of it is still at the universities. I
Speaker 1: like being, um, the first adapter, and I like I
Speaker 1: will for my education and to be on the cutting
Speaker 1: edge of technology. I will even risk some money. UM,
Speaker 1: I will not risk all of my money. UM. UM.
Speaker 1: You know you can be part of the various solutions,
Speaker 1: you can try different things. UH, you still should retain
Speaker 1: your common sense. UM. You have to understand that smart
Speaker 1: contracts are developing. It's gonna take time for them to
Speaker 1: become a mature technology. UM. There are numerous platforms that
Speaker 1: are coming up. So UM, if you like being open minded,
Speaker 1: if you like trying different things, I highly encourage you
Speaker 1: to do it. Just keep your common sense. Do not
Speaker 1: put all your assets in one place. That is that
Speaker 1: that is made of experimental technology. That is smart. Um.
Speaker 1: You know we all at some point have to pay
Speaker 1: mortgage or random and and and buy food. It's even
Speaker 1: smart when you talk about stuff that is tried and true.
Speaker 1: For example, this is the Microsoft bug. I mean Microsoft's
Speaker 1: been out a long time and like yet you know,
Speaker 1: people have lost a lot there. Um, you know, whether
Speaker 1: that be banks or investments or stocks or whatever. So
Speaker 1: you never really want to put all your assets into
Speaker 1: one basket. So uh, and I agree with you, right,
Speaker 1: and an emerging technology is even more important, so you
Speaker 1: should definitely practice that more so good point. I know
Speaker 1: for me personally, UM, I have multiple hardware wallets and
Speaker 1: I don't even put all my all my stuff on
Speaker 1: one hardware wall. I have it on multiple hardwall It's
Speaker 1: just in case something happens to one or whatever. Right,
Speaker 1: So even diversified to that level, and I think I
Speaker 1: think that makes great sense, Um, great strategy. And I
Speaker 1: can tell you that most people in the industry, myself included,
Speaker 1: do the same. So you you just you just have
Speaker 1: to be smart. Yeah, you just don't want a single
Speaker 1: point of failure and you don't want to lose everything
Speaker 1: to one one thing or or or be severely impacted. Now, UM,
Speaker 1: we've talked about you had you had recently gone and
Speaker 1: spoke with the Digital Chamber of Commerce. Um, and I
Speaker 1: think you that was invest in Washington, d C. Is
Speaker 1: that correct? And you were kind of, uh, you're kind
Speaker 1: of educating if you will, some of the congressmen, etcetera
Speaker 1: while you were there. So yes, So Digital a Chamber
Speaker 1: of Commerce is a great organization that composed of leaders
Speaker 1: in blockchain, smart contracts, and crypto. They include members that
Speaker 1: are highly reputable and well known of companies and law
Speaker 1: firms and accountants and consultants. They also include many well
Speaker 1: known projects. So it's a great group of people. Annually
Speaker 1: organized UM a education day and manuela sort of fly
Speaker 1: to Washington, d C. And meet with members of Congress,
Speaker 1: both in the House and Senate to to help them
Speaker 1: understand this very complicated to anology. UM. You know, block
Speaker 1: chain smart contracts are is a very very complicated technology.
Speaker 1: There is a reason why a big chunk of quand
Speaker 1: stamp are folks who have PhDs. UM. It gets really
Speaker 1: complicated really quickly, and so we try to make sure
Speaker 1: that UM members of Congress before they make any decisions,
Speaker 1: before they ask any questions, they're highly educated and aware
Speaker 1: of what this technology is with the benefits, what the
Speaker 1: challenges are, where it is in its development. UM. We
Speaker 1: really believe that education is powerful. I personally educated many,
Speaker 1: UM many members of Congress of the United States. I'm
Speaker 1: also fairly active in California. I've gone to SACRAMENTUM many times.
Speaker 1: I I firmly believe that educated people, educated legislators on average,
Speaker 1: make much better decisions, and so I always prioritize educating
Speaker 1: people about this amazing technology that has a huge potential.
Speaker 1: I was, you know, there is a couple of day
Speaker 1: is a testimony I think a week ago, a week
Speaker 1: or two ago on on the whole Facebook Libra, and
Speaker 1: I was, I was actually pleasantly surprised. I think it
Speaker 1: was the second day of testimony to hear from a
Speaker 1: lot of these uh congressmen and representatives that were there
Speaker 1: that actually sounded pretty knowledgeable. I was actually pleasantly surprised
Speaker 1: that do you find more than not that people are
Speaker 1: starting to be more aware and are kind of being
Speaker 1: educated or are they do? We still have a long
Speaker 1: way to go. I think what Libra did, independent of
Speaker 1: what position you take on just just bitcoin and just
Speaker 1: kind of cryptocurrencies overall, but Libre specifically, because Congress is
Speaker 1: focused on it, has raised blockchain issues. And yes, I
Speaker 1: find that our members of Congress want to learn more
Speaker 1: in the same way they want to learn more about
Speaker 1: other issues. I also know that many of their stoffers
Speaker 1: are very young and grew up with technology and so
Speaker 1: uh and and many of them are very curious about
Speaker 1: this technology, and many of them want to learn more
Speaker 1: about it, and many of them want to help their
Speaker 1: their representatives and centers, their bosses to to be knowledgeable
Speaker 1: about it. So I can tell you there is a
Speaker 1: lot of effort to educate everyone from many ways, digital
Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce doing its busy and numerous other organizations
Speaker 1: that do that piece. And I'm I'm really thrilled to
Speaker 1: see education being prioritized by our agencies, by our legislators,
Speaker 1: by by our government. Yeah. I like that point you
Speaker 1: made about the staffers being younger and maybe trying to
Speaker 1: help them out. I never really thought about that, but
Speaker 1: that's an important point. You know. Sometimes I I look
Speaker 1: at the the meetings, the committee meanings are having or whatever,
Speaker 1: and you see the age of the average policymaker there,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's just older people are raised in
Speaker 1: a different generation than the younger people. And I have
Speaker 1: kids and they're they're raised in the digital age and
Speaker 1: everything is digital to them, right, And and then you
Speaker 1: have you know, my parents, and they're old and they
Speaker 1: weren't and so I'm afraid you have these old policymakers
Speaker 1: put in policies in place that will be there for
Speaker 1: a long time. They are going to affect this younger generation.
Speaker 1: There's like this divide. So um, I think, right, there's
Speaker 1: generally a correlation between age and technologies. For every correlation
Speaker 1: I find there's numerous exceptions. Uh, there are quite a
Speaker 1: number of people who my parents age who know more
Speaker 1: about technologies than I do. So I think one has
Speaker 1: to be very careful about making age based sort of generalization.
Speaker 1: But by and large, you know, if you talk about
Speaker 1: average people, there is a correlation. And it is great
Speaker 1: that you know. And and we know that members of Congress,
Speaker 1: especially members of the Senate and to skew older. Uh
Speaker 1: so there will be a correlation. I am really pleased
Speaker 1: to see that this this correlation can be offset by
Speaker 1: very young stuffers who are very eager, who went to school,
Speaker 1: who grew up with different technology and see the world
Speaker 1: in a very different ways. So so yeah, so it
Speaker 1: is it is balancing each other out. But yes, there
Speaker 1: is there is a correlation, and yes there is a
Speaker 1: skewing too, more than older population and our legislation. You
Speaker 1: you had mentioned that there's a lot of focus on
Speaker 1: the whole Facebook Libra thing, and I don't know how
Speaker 1: much you want to dive into that, but I'm just curious. UM.
Speaker 1: The focus that it's doing, UM, is that bringing more
Speaker 1: awareness to the overall space. So they're focused on Facebook Libra,
Speaker 1: but now it's bringing more awareness to the blockchain space overall.
Speaker 1: And is that a good thing to bringing good attention
Speaker 1: or bad attention or is any attention good? You know?
Speaker 1: I think UM, Facebook is a high profile player generally
Speaker 1: speaking in many industries, and it's doubling in blockchain brings
Speaker 1: and eagerness to be educated. And I'm excited about that
Speaker 1: eagerness to be educated when we're having conversations that we're
Speaker 1: not had before that we're put off to to have
Speaker 1: some other day. And now you know, you know, because
Speaker 1: Libra has been testifying in Congress, those members have to
Speaker 1: be educated, UM, and they have been prioritizing education. I
Speaker 1: think prioritizing education is overall highly positive thing and I'm
Speaker 1: excited about it. So it's a net game. It's it's
Speaker 1: a it's a conversation that had to be had. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like I said, I was, I was. I was really
Speaker 1: surprised some of the conversations that were coming out, and
Speaker 1: I was pleasantly surprised seeing the level of education that
Speaker 1: some of these people had. UM. So overall, I think
Speaker 1: it's good. UM. We definitely see a big division though.
Speaker 1: I mean there's some people that don't you mentioned going
Speaker 1: before UM and it's going to Sacramento in California, and
Speaker 1: I know we have a very outspoken representative in California
Speaker 1: that thinks it should all be outlawed and no one
Speaker 1: should be allowed to own it. So that's obviously another
Speaker 1: side of the extreme. So it's interesting to see how
Speaker 1: that's going to play out. You know. I find that
Speaker 1: there's always gonna be an outspoken outlier in every jurisdiction
Speaker 1: UM and and they exist in every state. They exist
Speaker 1: in on the federal level as well. UM. Focusing on
Speaker 1: outliers in anything you do UM may or may not
Speaker 1: be a put in thing. I think buying large people
Speaker 1: I meet and I now I'm now educated members of
Speaker 1: many federal and California agencies, and I've talked to many
Speaker 1: legislators and regulators. I would say the predominant, the predominant
Speaker 1: mood is open minded, and to me, that's a positive thing.
Speaker 1: And yes, there are outliers, there outliers on the either side. Okay, good, Well,
Speaker 1: we're running out of time, so we got to try
Speaker 1: and wrap this up. I just want maybe ask you
Speaker 1: another question because you have a very unique perspective. I think,
Speaker 1: being with your background digital security, privacy, being in the
Speaker 1: forefront of this kind of smart contracts and talking to
Speaker 1: Congress a little bit, so you kind of have this
Speaker 1: like unique perspective. Um, where do you think we are u,
Speaker 1: you know, in the adoption of this and and maybe
Speaker 1: where are we in the next couple of years. Are
Speaker 1: we still really early and people should just be patient
Speaker 1: and wait, or is there something that we see gradually
Speaker 1: picking up and and and kind of where do you
Speaker 1: see that over the next year or two. I think
Speaker 1: we're definitely on the earlier side. We're definitely not in
Speaker 1: the very very beginning. We are on the earlier side.
Speaker 1: We're also on the side where there is a number
Speaker 1: of kind of proof of concepts and small deployments that
Speaker 1: are happening at various enterprises and projects. So it is
Speaker 1: an opportunity for this technology to really show what what
Speaker 1: it can do, and a lot of that is focused
Speaker 1: on gaining efficiencies, which frankly, you know, drives a lot
Speaker 1: of adoption among enterprises. If you can show that you
Speaker 1: can make it bigger, faster, cheaper, that is usually a highly,
Speaker 1: highly compelling reason to adopt this technology. Having said that
Speaker 1: it is very early, we do think that security challenges
Speaker 1: are not that they have to be sold at least
Speaker 1: to some extent for for the mass adoption. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: regulators are having conversations about smart country, box chain, crypto. Uh,
Speaker 1: there needs to be some clarity for mass adoption as well.
Speaker 1: So we are fairly early, but the conversations are happening,
Speaker 1: the technology is developing, people are sort of struggling with
Speaker 1: various problems, as they should be. We see the shift
Speaker 1: from you know, again, if you look at sort of
Speaker 1: patent trends, most of the patent trends in the past
Speaker 1: have been in from the universities. That is changing. A
Speaker 1: lot of patenting is actually happening in enterprises. So what
Speaker 1: that said yet, that this industry is here to stand
Speaker 1: stay and that enterprises and projects are heavily investing in
Speaker 1: this industry, and that it will be a technology that
Speaker 1: will change the way we do business and live our lives.
Speaker 1: It is a bag end technology, so if it is
Speaker 1: done right, we will not see it. Our lives will
Speaker 1: just get better and and that will be our new normal.
Speaker 1: In the same way as we no longer write letters
Speaker 1: to each other and write emails, and we just have
Speaker 1: many more communications and our lives got to guess arguably better. Um.
Speaker 1: And that's the seamless process. That that is what I
Speaker 1: expect what happened with blockchain and smart contract Sure, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it just has to be
Speaker 1: a better, a better, a better technology. So I agree
Speaker 1: with that. Well, good stuff. I appreciate the conversation. UM. Hopefully,
Speaker 1: hopefully that is useful for everyone listening. I know, uh,
Speaker 1: paying attention to smart contracts and being smart with them
Speaker 1: is a big piece that I'm practicing, so I hope
Speaker 1: everyone else is too. UM. But Olga, thanks for so
Speaker 1: much for coming on. I appreciate the conversation. And are
Speaker 1: you active on social media or anywhere that people can
Speaker 1: keep up with you. I am very active on LinkedIn,
Speaker 1: I'm somewhat active on Twitter, but LinkedIn is where I
Speaker 1: tend to hang. So I open two connections and help
Speaker 1: everyone who needs to be helped, either with resources or
Speaker 1: in any other way, or direct them to resources that
Speaker 1: quant stem It is absolutely delighted to be here. Thank
Speaker 1: you for finding giving me this opportunity to share my passion.
Speaker 1: I am thrilled and I very much look forward how
Speaker 1: the world will change and and become better with this
Speaker 1: amazing saying technology that has a lot of potential. All right,
Speaker 1: thanks so much, you're bet hey. If you like this
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