WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 121 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:02.880 Zone Media. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.880 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.880 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:28.960 you can make your own decisions. Oh boy, howdy, welcome 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.159 back to It could happen here? A podcast about it 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:38.559 happening here, and the it is different most episodes, but 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.680 today the thing that is happening here is discussion about 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:46.360 the growth of self immolation as a form of protest 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.320 from the twentieth to the twenty first century. Obviously, we 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.840 are recording this less than a week after Aaron Bushnell, 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.120 a twenty five year old serviceman in the United States 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.520 Air Force, let himself on fire in front of the 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:05.080 Israeli Intimacy in Washington, d C. And you know, repeatedly 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.880 stated free Palestine as he was doing it. He said 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.080 more than that, obviously, he wrote, you know, I think 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:14.720 very clearly about why he did what he was doing. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:17.920 This is something that you'll have heard a lot of 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.640 debate about. There's a certain kind of person, particularly in 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.280 the media, who feels obligated to say this is mental 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.800 illness and we shouldn't discuss it as anything else. I 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.400 think that's wrong for the same reasons, by the way 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.320 that it's wrong to dismiss, you know, any sort of 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.280 mass shooter or whatever as mentally ill not that either 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:40.880 of those are similar in terms of the actions they're not, 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.600 but that attempt to dismiss it because it's something it 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.119 makes you uncomfortable to consider that somebody could do something 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.960 so incomprehensible to you for a logical reason. Now, when 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:52.080 I say a logical reason, that doesn't mean I'm arguing 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.160 this is something more people should do. It doesn't mean 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:55.880 that I'm arguing that this was the best thing that 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:58.600 Bushnell could do. What I am saying is that, from 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.520 everything that is available, this was a rational act. He 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.600 understood what he hoped to accomplish with this, and he 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.480 took concerted steps to ensure that he succeeded and that 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:11.520 attention was drawn to it. His reason for doing it 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.680 was clear. He took actions like to set up a 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.560 will and whatnot. This seems to have been a rational 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.440 and principled action, and we are I'm not really primarily 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.920 going to be discussing what Bushnell did because I don't 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:26.799 really know that there's much to say. You know, it's 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.320 it's everyone here's stants that what's being done to Gaza 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.160 is a genocide. I don't know that this will help. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.120 I certainly hope that somehow it does, but we're simply 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:39.520 not at a point where we can say what the 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.000 impact of this on the overall you know, situation in 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:43.880 Gaza is going to be. 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:46.800 Yeah, And I mean I guess, like the thing we 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.640 can say off the bat is like whether or not 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.000 this matters is to a larger scent up to you 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.560 because like, yeah, someone someone like I mean, this is 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:56.400 the thing, right, Like. 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:58.400 The matters in the sense that it has an impact 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.679 on the Obviously, I think it matters because he was 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:01.360 a person. 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.160 Well that too, right, Yeah, but like yeah, in the 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:04.359 in the in the in the sense of whether it 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.560 accomplishes political objectives, Yes, that's up to us figuring out 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.000 how we're going to run a political movement in such 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:13.880 a way that the sennis I get stopped. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.600 Yeah, and that is yeah, that's not something I have 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.359 a clear answer for you on right now that I 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:20.400 mean to think there. I think so. I think the 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:22.040 thing we're going to try to do that I think 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.239 can be helpful in this is a tempt to provide 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.959 some context on what is the history of self immolation 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:32.280 as a protest tactic, How does it tend to work 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.360 in the past, and and and in the present, and 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.640 in what sort of situations has it been more or 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.640 less effective as a as an instrument of protest. That's 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.120 what we're going to try to cover today. Obviously, this 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.560 should not be seen as a totally comprehensive look at 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.360 the entire history of goodcast as I'm about to come. 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:49.760 This is this is what we can get for you 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:51.360 in about a week, and I think I think it 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.200 will help and provide a broader sense of context as 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.680 to how this sort of thing has worked in other 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.840 situations around the world and throughout time self and goes 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.920 back very far as a protest tactic. There were Christians 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.160 who were being persecuted by the Roman government in Nicodemia 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.480 in three hundred AD who lit a fire in front 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.400 of the emperor's palace and threw themselves into a bonfire 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.160 as an active protest in Russia. I think in like 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:21.320 the sixteen hundreds Orthodox I don't know there was an 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:23.919 Orthodox sect. I don't really know much about them, but 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:28.080 they they locked themselves in churches as a protest for 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.719 some of the Czar's reforms and then lit those churches 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.240 on fire, so like died inside the churches that they 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.360 were in. So this is a kind of thing that 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.400 goes back quite a while. I'm sure there are other 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.080 cases in you know, ancient history that go well before that, 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.000 but it's not a new thing. However, when we talk 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.000 about kind of twentieth and twenty first century self immolation, 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.159 the first sort of really famous case of this, and 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.760 the one that gets brought up every single time people 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:01.120 talk about self immolation as a protest tactic, was one 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.000 that occurred during the Vietnam War, and it was the 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:09.279 self immolation of a Buddhist monk named tish Quang Duk. 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.640 I believe that's Thhich. I think that's how that's pronounced. 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.440 I let's do it before we started recording this, But 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:18.320 that kind of stuff slips out of my head, so 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.880 I apologize if that is the case. He's an interesting guy. 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:25.840 I think pretty pretty his early life is probably pretty 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.159 common for people who become Buddhists, who became Buddhist monks 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.159 and kind of Central Vietnam in this period of time. 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.080 He left home when he was like seven, He became 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.359 a novice at fifteen. By twenty he was a full monk. 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.159 And one of the things that's happening during this period 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.400 of time is the South Vietnamese government is this guy 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.640 he's called a president. The president. He is a dictator. 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:51.760 I think everything but name No Din Dim and he's 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.320 a terrible guy. He's a French educated Catholic. And if 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.640 you know anything about the French history and into China 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:01.440 right like that, that does not suggest somebody whose role 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:05.400 before Vietnam got its independence from France was particularly great. 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.120 His brother No din knew what is the head of 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.839 the secret police. And they are despite the fact that Vietnam, 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.200 South Vietnam is a Buddhist majority country, they're passing a 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.279 lot of policies that are like actively cracking down on 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.839 and reducing the right of Buddhist people to worship right. 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.080 And you know this is there's a lot of reasons 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:27.440 for this, but they kind of boiled down to the 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:32.280 fact that dim was horrible was just a fucking dog shit. Yeah, 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.960 really really trash. Now I've heard it said online when 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.200 people bring up this self immolation, you know, within kind 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.960 of the context of what's happened recently, like this wasn't 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:44.440 a you know, people are wrong when they say this 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.520 was an active protest to the Vietnam War. It wasn't. 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.440 And that is technically true because like the thing that 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:54.120 that duke was was protesting was not US involvement in Vietnam. 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:58.160 But he was protesting the US backed government of South Vietnam, 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.960 and that government is very livant to why there was 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.400 a Vietnam War. So I do kind of think it's 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.920 it's not entirely accurate to be like, well, this wasn't 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:07.159 a Vietnam War protest, I. 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:07.800 Don't know it was. 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:08.120 It was. 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.600 It was just about the fact that like the Catholic, 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:15.680 theocratic drug dealing fashions government, it was like murdering. 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:20.440 It seems like you're splitting the hair there, bro. I 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.080 feel like the murdering Buddhist thing might have been part 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.120 of why there was so many people willing to fight 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.680 the South Vietnamese government. Not a zero percent part of 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:33.200 that equation maybe, But yeah, so these guys, these Buddhists, 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.480 i mean Buddhist religious leaders in the country get increasingly 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.760 angry about what's happening. There are debates i think for 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.960 several years kind of within sort of the more highly 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.640 ranking kind of leaders in the faith as to like 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.560 what do we do about this crackdown on our rights 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.440 and like should we They were talking for quite some 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.080 time about having a self immolation protest, right like it 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.600 was the kind of thing where there was a decent 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:03.960 amount of like discussion earlier. And Duck is actually the 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.600 one who I think suggested it initially to like other 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.240 leaders in the church. And yeah, while there was like 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:12.560 for a while they tried to push back against this, 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.960 eventually the level of prosecution just became so clear that 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.720 you know, they basically said, Okay, let's like you can 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.160 do this. And Dook is going to be the guy 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.920 who is going to like physically, you know, destroy his 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.640 body in order to carry out this act of protest, 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:30.320 As is always going to be the case when we 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.640 talk about these famous self immolation cases, half of the 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.599 story is the guy who does the or the individual 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.199 who lights himself on fire, and half of the story 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.920 is the reporter who happens to be there, and in 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.120 this case it was a guy named Malcolm Brown. He is, 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:49.079 I believe he's an American reporter. He's stationed in you know, Saygone, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.160 and he's he's, you know, doing what a lot of 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.920 journalists were doing at the time. And in the springtime 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:58.320 of nineteen sixty three, there start being like these kind 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.280 of messages put out by the Buddhist Church that are 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.040 sort of he describes it as hinting as some kind 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.240 of spectacular protest. His guess was that it would quote 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.880 most likely be a disembowlment of one of the monks 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.760 or an immolation, and either way, it was something we 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.880 had to pay attention to. And like a lot of journalists, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.320 he's got some sources within the church. He gets a 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.320 call one day and they're like, you should show up 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.960 at this pagoda at this specific time. And here is 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.480 how Malcolm describes what he saw. By the time I 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.680 got to the pagoda where all this was being organized, 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:31.560 it was already under way. The monks and nuns were 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.800 chanting a type of chance that's very common at funerals 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:35.800 and so forth. At a signal from the leader They 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:37.800 all started out into the street and headed toward the 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.280 central part of Saigon on foot. When we reached there, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:42.960 the monks quickly formed a circle around a precise intersection 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.720 of two main streets in Saigon. A car drove up, 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:47.720 two young monks got out of it. An older monk, 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:49.640 leaning a bit on one of the younger ones also 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.160 got out. He headed right for the center of the intersection. 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.959 The two young monks brought up a plastic jerry can, 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.800 which proved to be gasoline. As soon as he seated himself, 0:09:57.840 --> 0:09:59.720 they poured the liquid all over him. He got out 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.720 a man book lighted it and dropped it in his 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:07.800 lap and was immediately engulfed in flames. And yeah, that's 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.480 you know what happened that day. Malcolm takes a picture 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.320 of He takes a bunch of pictures. You can see 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.880 all of them. There's a Good Time article Malcolm Brown, 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.000 the Story behind the Burning Monk, that has all of 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:20.760 the pictures that he took, or at least like a 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.280 long list of them. And they are worth seeing. They 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.640 are I shouldn't have to put a trigger warning in here, right, 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.280 these are photos of burning. 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:34.200 To death like that shit sucks can say from me. Yeah, yeah, 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.560 good god, it doesn't look good. It looks really bad. 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.760 Yeah. Now, obviously one of specifically one of the photos 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:42.839 you've probably seen it where like half of the monk's 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:44.880 face looks okay and the other half is just like 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.920 wreathed in fire. This goes like the sixties equivalent of 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:52.400 viral right. President Kennedy said of the photograph, no news 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.600 picture in history has generated so much emotion around the world. 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:56.240 Is that one? 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.600 And at the time it may have been true, and 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.599 it is. It is number one. It does have a 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.120 role in the anti war movement because you know, this 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.040 is related to a protest against the government we were backing. 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.920 But this is also one of the more successful, maybe 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:14.480 the most like directly successful cases of self immolation I've seen, 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.240 because this does play a significant role in the end 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:23.640 of Deem's presidency and his life. Right, So Duck leaves 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.120 a note, like a lot of these people do. In 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.360 his note, again is very clear minded. He ends it 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.640 by saying, before closing my eyes and moving towards the 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.680 vision of the Buddha, I respectfully plead to President no 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.880 Dndem to take a mind of compassion towards the people 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.600 of the nation and admit implement religious equality to maintain 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.920 the strength of the homeland eternally. Yeah, when this kind 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.400 of happens, as I quoted earlier, Kennedy is like shocked 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:53.240 and furious. He yells to his National security advisor, who 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.080 the fuck are these people? Like how did we not 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.800 know this was going to happen? He's very angry about 0:11:58.840 --> 0:11:59.079 all this. 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.400 Buddhist is like, I feel like, like, that's the kind I. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:08.760 Actually have trouble imagining, like JFK having a significant amount 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.600 of context as to like what buddhismss. 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:14.160 God. 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.360 But maybe maybe I'm wrong. 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.280 So I want to quote from this a really good 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.560 medium article, the suicide that changed American policy in Vietnam 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.840 by a Poorva Tadepali, And this is for a series 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.880 they write called near Pot, which is an interactive classroom 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.960 tool for students. And I found this a very readable 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:37.560 and concise description of kind of what happened after Dook's 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.280 self immolation quote. The publicity of the incident increased pressure 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:43.600 on DM's government to deal with the crisis, but he 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.320 did not take the incident seriously enough. His response to 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:48.440 the death was an announcement on the radio later that 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.880 day that wildly missed the point. The state of affairs 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.040 was moving forward so smoothly, he said, bizarrely, when this 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.680 morning acting under extremist in truth concealing propaganda, that's so 0:12:57.800 --> 0:12:59.800 doubt about the goodwill of the government. A number of 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.400 people got intoxicated and caused an undeserved death that made 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.480 me very sorry. 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.319 Okay, I a lot of terrible statements about. 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:16.720 It is this guy. We need to do the Bastards 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.280 episode on him, because damn is like he's horrible. He 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:20.840 causes a lot of damage to a lot of people, 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:26.760 but he's such a fucking scrub, right yeah, like fucking 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:31.400 Stalin would never you know, like the old Geese, very 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.200 sad You think Saddam Hussein would have gotten caught up 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.600 in that ship? No, not, my man. 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:38.920 Listen, this is like this is bush ling shit, even 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.880 by like fucking like East Asian dictators, Like can you sheck? 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.000 Like noah, no, kay sheck wouldn't have gotten caught up 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:46.520 in this ship. 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:47.800 Absolutely sheck. 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.760 If someone had tried to do this specifically, chink chanky 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:52.240 sheck would have shot the guy himself. 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:58.640 Absolutely yeah, Oh my god. So anyway this scrub he makes, 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:00.800 he makes like a prom that they're going to do 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.920 reforms and stuff. And like while he's doing this, his family, 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.640 including his brother Knew, who's like the head of the 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.320 Saigon Secret Police, is basically is saying like like literally says, 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.440 if the Buddhists want to have another barbecue, I'll be 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.920 glad to supply the gasoline. Is Christ and his wife, 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:20.240 who's like a very merry antoinette figure, Madam Knew who 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.120 is it's his brother's wife, but she's basically the first 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.720 lady right of South Vietnam. She's like, let them burn, 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:28.360 We'll clap our hands. 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:30.440 Oh god. 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.520 So it's pretty it's pretty cool. Like DM is actually 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:36.400 kind of the smart one in the family because he's 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.320 trying to like tell his sister in law and his 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:40.760 brother in law like nah, bra Or, and his brother 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.840 and his sister in law, like, you guys don't understand. 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:44.480 We have to be a little bit careful here. This 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:45.600 could really go badly. 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:45.880 Yeah. 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.120 It really seems like like they haven't figured out the 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.160 playbook for dealing with this yet. No, because like the 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.120 successive governments, like everyone has like the same line that 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.320 they say when it happens, and these people, it looks 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.360 like they're really kind of scrambling here. 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.400 They didn't have any They'd never been considered that something 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.720 like this could happen, there would be reactions to their 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.960 policies like this. There are a bunch of protests by 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.960 monks and nuns of the police arrest a bunch of people. 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.360 This continues to draw outrage and make the system a 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.200 situation worse new the secret police guy has his his 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.520 goons like ransack and destroy a bunch of Buddhist temples. 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.320 Basically a lot of people, like fourteen hundred people are 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.720 like rounded up and arrested. DM accuses the monks of 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.720 being part of the Viet Cong, which is again like sure, 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:32.280 such a. 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.880 Yeah, okay. 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.680 So one of the things that is important to understand 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:40.640 here is that this is at a very different part 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.800 stage of the Vietnam War. The US has troops in 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.400 the country, but not a lot, like very few compared 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.960 to how many are going to be there, and at 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.960 this stage DM actually isn't happy that we have even 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.240 though it's going to become very clear that like the 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.080 US troops the only thing allowing this regime to stay 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.000 propped up. He is like, I don't want them here. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.000 They don't even have passports, right, Like, he's he's like 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:07.120 weirdly anti the like, And part of it is because 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.480 the US is about to act here finally to take 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.280 support away from his regime. So three days after his buddy, 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.680 his brother in law or his brother Knu has a 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.160 bunch of raids on these Buddhist temples, there's a cable 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.480 sent from DC to the US ambassador in Southern Vietnam 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.720 that's like, we're not backing this guy anymore. And this 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.360 ends with a bunch of South Vietnamese generals who had 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.320 already been planning a coup being given the go ahead 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.240 from the US basically saying like, we're not Our guys 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.240 are not going to take any actions to stop you 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.920 from overthrowing this guy. And on November two, DM and 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.760 his brother are kidnapped while trying to escape and they 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.960 are killed not long after. So this is, you know, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:53.600 pretty successful self the militia. You have to say, right, yeah, yeah, works, 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.320 seems like it works about as well as you could 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.200 have hoped for that, right, like the at least I'm 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.760 sure as as well as that monk hoped. Because you know, 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.880 DM is not just out of power, but is fucking 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:05.280 killed as a result of this. 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.680 So ohough, the problem is the subsequent people he has 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:09.600 put in charge. 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:15.320 Yeah, also suck. But that's that's also part of a pattern, unfortunately, 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.760 And there's like a weirdly there's like a history of 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.440 self immolation leading to gme change. We're gonna talk about 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.880 Tunisia at the end of the episode, and that does 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.640 tend to be the story of like, yeah, we got 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.200 rid of the dictator and then a guy who sucked 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:28.920 that's as much came into power. 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.520 Hey, well, the the Tai one one we're going to 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:33.560 talk about in a second. 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.800 Actually, yes, pretty well, yeah, yeah, And before we go 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.600 into that, because we're gonna let you take over from 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.639 hearing me, or at least for the next couple of 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.160 parts of this. But first let's let our advertisers take 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:58.280 over and we're back, all right, Mia, you are on deck. 0:17:59.440 --> 0:17:59.680 Yeah. 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.400 So, I think I think people are kind of broadly aware, 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.959 kind of if you know anything about self immolations, about 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.600 the self emilations in Vietnam, and then also the sort 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.240 of the ones in the US, like as as anti 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.520 Vietnam War protests, the ones that I don't think most 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.159 people here know and that I only know about, like 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.800 because like my mom was born in Taiwan, right, is 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:29.159 the Taiwanese self immalations. Yeah, so this guy's name is 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:33.480 Jan Yong Rong. He is he's also noticed the thing 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.639 most people call him is Nylon Jung for reasons that 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.119 I guess will become clear when he lights himself on fire. 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:48.720 So Nylon Jung is a very very influential Uh well, okay, 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.400 I don't know very very influential is Quator, but he's 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.960 like a he's a pretty famous and very influential pro 0:18:53.960 --> 0:19:00.080 independence activist in Taiwan during the KMT's occupation there, And 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.600 this is something I don't like. Americans tend to not 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.879 understand this very well. So okay, So the the KMT 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.640 is the Chinese nationalist party. They take power in Taiwan 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.360 after just invading it effectively. They when when they when 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.800 they lose the civil war, the KMT is like cremating forces, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:18.920 and a bunch of their supporters like flee to Taiwan. 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:21.560 And there are there are like three groups of people 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.480 who the KMT like spend most of their time killing, 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.879 and that is communist feminists and Taiwanese independence activists. They 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.000 also hate Presbyterians for reasons that are. 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.920 Hey, hey, we all hate Presbyterians, am I right? 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:35.520 Okay to it. 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.000 Look, look, I am not normally a presbyterianker. The Taiwanese 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.760 Presbyterians like legitimately do good work in the sense that 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.240 they are like one of the groups that's like pretty 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:49.320 important in bringing down the KMT one party dictatorship. But okay, 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:54.760 so Taiwan has this like really appalling like one party dictatorship. 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:59.320 Nylon jungk is actually born I think I'm remembering, is right. 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.520 He's born like during the February twenty eighth incident, which 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.240 is this thing in nineteen forty seven actually where we 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:07.800 are two days I think when this goes out will 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:09.919 be two days after the seventy seventh anniversary of it, 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.200 where there's there's a giant uprising in Taiwan because the 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.080 like people in Taiwan fucking hate the KMT because they 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.000 suck and they murder people, and there's this giant uprising 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:24.400 and the KMT eventually like their military forces get reorganized 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:28.360 and they so the initial uprising takes most of the islands, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.560 and then the KMG just come back and kill everyone. 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.280 They kill about twenty thousand people in a week. It's 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:35.600 one of the sort of like I don't know, one 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.480 of the kind of like defining incidents and what becomes 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.080 sort of Taiwanese national culture. It's just this like massacre 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:42.440 and then you know, it's basically it's legal to talk 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.600 about afterwards. This is this is the beginning of the 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:46.679 sort of white terror in China, and they're gonna you know, 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:48.760 and this is the start of the KMT kidnapping and 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.879 torturing like tens of thousands of people. One of the 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.320 things that happens in this this is actually so this 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.920 is this was my family's experience of it, is that Okay, 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.199 so there's there's this up there's the uprising, right, but 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.439 one of the things that starts happening pretty quickly is 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:06.919 these like retaliatory killings against like against Chinese nationals. And 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.119 that was stuff my family was like, yeah, we like 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.320 couldn't go outside because if you leave your house, like 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:15.240 you're gonna get killed by mobs and that stuff. That 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:16.400 stuff like sucked. 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:18.840 Yeah, that that does sound like it sucked. 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:21.359 No, it's not good because it's the thing because it's 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:24.760 it's weird because it's like that uprising like broadly good, 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:26.760 but it turns into like parts of it turned into 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:30.399 race riots or like why it's weird, Like I don't know, 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.680 it turns into these like anti Chinese national like riots 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:36.680 and that stuff. 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:37.080 You know. 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:39.480 So Jong is from a Chinese like like just from 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.919 like a sort of like Chinese national family that like 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:46.439 fled to Taiwan after the war, and his family is 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:51.560 protected by other Taiwanese like like uprising people who are 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.720 like no, like we're not gonna fucking just kill these 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:55.760 random Chinese, see, but like what are you guys talking about? 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.480 And that's this really formative thing for him, where when 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:01.359 this one that caused him to grow up to become 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.119 like the kind of Chinese like Taiwanese independence activist that 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:07.560 he is. Where he's one of these people who is 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.880 really big on Taiwan as like like like liberating Taiwan 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.440 as a nation but having it be like a nation 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.399 of ideals not a nation of blood because his you know, 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:21.400 because he sees how badly this kind of like ultnationalist 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:28.480 bloodline like shit can go. And so he becomes like 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.359 a pretty prominent independence activist. He runs one of the 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:35.920 anti party newspapers. Like anti canteen newspapers, and he's he's 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:37.560 mostly doing a lot of this stuff in the eighties, 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:41.639 where so basically like you have two consecutive like like 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.000 the Shankai check and then you have like more guys 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:49.119 from that family. By the eighties, you're like democratization is 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:52.520 kind of like slowly moving forward because the Taiwanese ruling 0:22:52.520 --> 0:23:00.399 class losing American backing, They're losing backing overseas. But you know, 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:02.479 even even by sort of nineteen eighty nine, which is 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:04.679 in the period in which people are talking about like 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.800 wild democratization's happening, like it's going to go forward, the 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:13.360 country still has like they haven't had like real national elections, 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.639 and they still have these really really intense what are 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.600 called anti sedition laws and so one of the things 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.840 that the prone dependence activists. And this is the period 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:29.159 in which like Taiwan's like modern ruling party, the Democratic 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.920 Progressive Party like comes into existence or like they're coming 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:35.119 to existence as the anti KMT party. And this is 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.400 the sort of milieu kind of in which Dylon Jung 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:42.760 is sort of mobilizing, right, but he's also I don't know, 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:47.360 he's like he's the kind of guy that doesn't exist anymore, 0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:51.199 which is like he's kind of like a like like 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:56.400 liberal progressive national liberation supporter. So I actually I found 0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.720 a really interesting thing translated by jenhan Chan on this 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:01.880 guy a kind of am aware of from Twitter, who 0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:04.080 translated this thing that he wrote about Palestine, where he 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:07.960 is a pro Palestine guy. But it's interesting because he 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:12.520 sees Palestine as like another nation that's been like subjugated 0:24:12.520 --> 0:24:17.000 in like a similar way to Taiwan has. And you know, 0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:19.800 and he's like an anti armed struggle guy, but he's 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:25.520 also very sort of he's very committed to Taiwanese independence 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:28.000 as a national liberation movement and specifically like the thing 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:33.280 that you're liberating it from is the KMT, and so 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:39.520 you know, he he gets into trouble constantly with like 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:41.840 the KMT government. They arrest in a bunch of times, 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.879 and eventually, in nineteen eighty nine, he gets charged with 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:49.280 these by these anti suisition laws. He gets charged with 0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:52.359 insurrection for like spreading drafts of a potential to do 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:57.320 Taiwanese constitution, and so he barricades himself in his office, 0:24:57.320 --> 0:24:58.960 refuses to show up to code. He gives this giant 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:03.000 speech about how like you'll never take me alive, and 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:06.639 the police kind of take him to so he's he's 0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:09.240 barricaded himself in like his newspaper offices, and he's there 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:12.399 for like two months, and at the end of month two, 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:15.560 a cop who is the current mayor of New Taipei 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:18.600 City tries to burst down his door. 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:22.200 That doesn't seem like a job that you should be 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:22.720 able to have. 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:26.200 No, No, this is one of these things where it's like, okay, 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:28.840 So like the KMT, this is one of the things 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:31.119 about sort of Tony's politics that's weird that the KMT 0:25:31.359 --> 0:25:34.240 is the modern sort of pro China promunification faction, Right, 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:37.480 those guys suck like like they're they're not they're not 0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:40.119 the same sort of like just desk squad party they 0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:42.040 were in the sort of late in like the twentieth century. 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:45.399 But they're also like yeah, no, it's literally they're mayor. 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:50.159 They're mayor of New Pipei, which is okay, I'm not 0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:51.720 going to go into what the difference between Uchipei and 0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:53.240 ip Pey is here. That's that's the whole thing. 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:56.240 I'm guessing. It's like the difference between you know, New 0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:59.240 York and Old York. Right, it's it's it's closer to 0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:03.479 the diference between New York City and New York. Okay, okay, 0:26:04.040 --> 0:26:05.920 but that makes sense. Yeah that works. 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:09.080 Like this guy, this guy who again like was elected 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:11.680 like two years ago, tries to kick down his door 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:16.960 and Nylon Jung likes himself on fire. And this has 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:22.119 a enormous impact on the sort of subsequent course of 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:24.720 Tiwan his politics, because this is a this is a like, 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:28.919 this is a pr disaster for the like for the 0:26:29.000 --> 0:26:31.760 ruling for like for the current government, which had been 0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:34.200 trying to sort of like do its like ah, we're 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:36.879 doing moderate reforms, blah blah blah, we're doing you have 0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:37.520 local elections. 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:39.040 Now we're doing democratization. 0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:42.520 And suddenly, like their cops break down this guy's door 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:48.439 and he lights himself on fire. And you know that 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:51.080 the cop later says like, oh, yeah, we break down 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:52.840 the door because we were trying to save his life. 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:55.879 It's like, no, you didn't. What the fuck are you 0:26:55.920 --> 0:26:57.000 talking about? Life? 0:26:57.240 --> 0:26:59.639 I love things that have never happened. That's my favorite 0:26:59.720 --> 0:27:00.280 kind of thing. 0:27:01.200 --> 0:27:04.359 Yeah, and you know, so there this is one of 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:06.160 these things that and this is actually think that that's 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:09.120 become that's a very very common thing I protests. Like now, 0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:13.160 so Nilon Jung has he has this massive funeral I mean, 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:16.640 this is an absolutely enormous funeral march, and the police 0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:20.360 attack it. And when the police attack it, another pro 0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:24.200 independence activist also lights himself on fire, like in front 0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:25.920 of the cops when they refuse to do it. And 0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:28.840 this that second guy is like a lot less remembered 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:33.040 than Nlon Jung. But this becomes a massive sort of 0:27:33.119 --> 0:27:36.720 rallying cry around, like you know, for the pro dependence people, 0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:40.120 but also for the sort of broader fight for like 0:27:40.320 --> 0:27:44.000 an actual like actual free democratic elections. Like the big 0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:47.159 thing these people were protesting like specifically was free speech 0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:50.000 because the thing about the sedition laws is if you 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:51.760 you know again, if you start passing around copies of 0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:53.520 the constitution, they try to arrest you and throw you 0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:54.000 in prison. 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:58.320 Yeah, I mean nothing says sedition like the constitution of 0:27:58.359 --> 0:27:59.119 the country you're in. 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:03.400 Yeah, and like changing it, I guess is sedition. It's 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:07.160 like the KMT really sucked, like cannot emphasize that it off. 0:28:08.119 --> 0:28:11.040 But the sort of the results of this is that, 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:14.200 you know, okay, like so this is one of these actions. 0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:17.800 That's kind of complicated because the the arc of Taiwanese 0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:22.359 politics was bending towards democratization in some kind of like 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:27.160 actual electoral system, and it probably would have happened even 0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:31.080 without this, but this super charges the whole process. Within 0:28:31.119 --> 0:28:33.520 about two years, two or three years, all the position 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:37.320 laws are appealed and within well, it takes a while 0:28:37.400 --> 0:28:40.120 before you get I think, I think it's like two thousand. 0:28:40.160 --> 0:28:42.160 I think it's like really when you can what you can. 0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:44.920 Call like the first really free like Taiwanese national election, 0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:48.120 when when there's actually like a transition of power between 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:51.800 the KMT and the Democratic Party. 0:28:52.360 --> 0:28:57.280 Sure, but yeah, it was to a large extent very successful. 0:28:57.280 --> 0:28:58.840 Like it. 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:03.400 No, okay, so it accomplished the goal of knocking off 0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:06.320 the KMT sort of one party state. It knocked off 0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:12.040 his edition laws. The kind of Taiwanese independence like that's 0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:16.920 very very sort of national liberation driven is kind of 0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:20.160 not the same one that exists in time one now 0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:24.560 it's a bit different. But on the other hand, like, yeah, 0:29:24.600 --> 0:29:26.320 they they did it. It was it was really it 0:29:26.360 --> 0:29:32.440 was pretty effective, and yeah, I don't know, like this 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:34.080 is this is I of the ones that I've seen. 0:29:34.120 --> 0:29:37.720 I think this was the most clear he won. Nolan 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:40.160 Jung's like is sort of to this day a pro 0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:45.040 dependence hero. There's there's a there's a statue of him. 0:29:46.040 --> 0:29:48.280 Uh so they they I think that I think I'm 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:50.680 pretty surely they turned the office we let himself on 0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:54.320 fire like into a into a like into a museum, 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:56.960 and there's there's a there's a very famous sort of 0:29:56.960 --> 0:29:57.840 like pictures of these the. 0:29:57.800 --> 0:30:00.800 Statue of his burned corpse. That's just horrowing. 0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:03.320 It's one of the symbols of the sort of Taiwanese 0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:07.000 democratic movements, and it's also it's also a sort of. 0:30:09.000 --> 0:30:11.000 It matters a lot. This is also happening in the 0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:12.360 same year as Tanneman. 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:16.239 Like yeah, so there's that kind of like it's in 0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:18.120 the air, right yeah. 0:30:18.240 --> 0:30:21.280 Yeah, and his his widow goes on to be a 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:24.200 DPP politician and it's one of it's one of the 0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:26.840 things that it's it's like his memories invoked dream like. 0:30:27.400 --> 0:30:30.600 So in twenty fourteen, Taiwan had their own version of 0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:33.720 occupy that's like shittier called the Sunflower Movement. I'm sorry, 0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:35.480 this is this is where we're getting into the Mia 0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:37.640 has a bunch of political beefs with people in Taiwan 0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:42.120 where I think they're all libs, but it's yeah, like 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:44.160 they have their own sort of they have like this 0:30:44.160 --> 0:30:46.080 this large series of street protests and this like he's 0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:47.719 one of the figures that's you know, one of like 0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:49.400 brought up in as. 0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:52.440 Yeah, that's gonna be the same thing with the guy 0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:54.040 in t an Asia. We're about to talk about two 0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:56.520 where where they become even to people that they would 0:30:56.520 --> 0:31:00.560 not you know, certainly we're not like expressing similar their views, 0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:04.240 they still become this like icon that gets sided. Yeah. 0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:06.560 Yeah, and I I think I think the last thing 0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:10.040 too is he's the fact that the cop who kicked 0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:12.680 at it, who kicked his door down, is now the 0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:15.040 fucking mayor of New type A City is just like 0:31:15.960 --> 0:31:21.600 oh appalling stuff. Yeah, the KMG absolutely suck uh. And 0:31:21.640 --> 0:31:24.080 those are the people who want Taiwan to be reunified 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:28.640 with China. So if that understands who you're making your 0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:30.840 bed with, if that's the kind of politics that you 0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:34.960 you want to be engaged in, Yeah, So that's that's 0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:37.880 that's that's that's the time I want self emlations. I 0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:42.320 guess kind of I don't know, not enough bad things 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:45.360 happened to the cops who trigger this kind of stuff, 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:50.120 which although I guess I guess the cops is Southiaknam 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:51.000 didn't do great. 0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:54.920 No no, no, I mean ultimately right, it doesn't immediately 0:31:54.960 --> 0:31:57.760 really cause them any problem. One Secret Police a bit. 0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:02.200 Speaking of Secret Police, this podcast is sponsored entirely by 0:32:02.240 --> 0:32:18.400 the Secret Police, so you know, check that out and 0:32:18.600 --> 0:32:22.640 we're back. Yeah, we just got beaten by phone books 0:32:22.760 --> 0:32:25.560 because they don't leave any bruises by our sponsors at 0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:29.480 the Secret Police. So you know, the Secret Police like 0:32:29.560 --> 0:32:33.120 the police. But Secret Mia, did you have another one 0:32:33.160 --> 0:32:35.600 you wanted to get into before we talk about Tunisia? 0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:38.000 Do we want to do Tibet first? Or do we 0:32:38.040 --> 0:32:39.640 want to do Tuenisia first? 0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:40.600 Why don't we do Tibet? 0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:44.960 Yeah, So I think other than Tunisia, I think the 0:32:45.000 --> 0:32:50.920 most famous wave of self im relations was the ones 0:32:51.160 --> 0:32:53.480 in Tibet that started in about two thousand and nine. 0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:57.280 There is actually a guy into Better Life self on 0:32:57.320 --> 0:33:01.560 Fire in the late nineties, but that doesn't have the 0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:04.920 same kind of sort of doesn't have the same effect 0:33:05.040 --> 0:33:08.280 as the two thousand and nine ones. So one of 0:33:08.320 --> 0:33:13.360 the things that's been periodically happening. I guess over the 0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:19.000 sort of course of the history of sort of occupied 0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:24.240 Tibet is the Dalai Lama. So the Dalai Lama like flees. 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:27.560 There's this whole giant drama nineteen fifty nine. So so okay, 0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:29.240 I guess, I guess I should go back to the beginning. 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:35.320 So Tibet is just like straight up invaded by China. 0:33:35.440 --> 0:33:38.720 When when the after the Communists win the civil war, 0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:43.440 this causes an enormous amount of shit to happen. One 0:33:43.440 --> 0:33:45.080 of the things that the Communist Party is trying to 0:33:45.080 --> 0:33:48.720 do is they are trying to gain control of the 0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:52.000 Tibetan religious system so that they can eliminate the religious 0:33:52.000 --> 0:33:56.040 system like they can they can eliminate like the Buddhist 0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:58.360 clergy is effectively, like they can eliminate Buddist munks. They 0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:00.520 can eliminate like the religious institutions as a source of 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:03.960 resistance to them. They're kind of foiled in this when 0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:06.440 the Dalai Lama makes this break and escapes to India. 0:34:07.400 --> 0:34:09.839 And this is one of the things that triggers eventually 0:34:10.120 --> 0:34:13.719 in the in the sixties China's war with India. But 0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:15.440 one of the things that I've been happening for a 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:19.080 while was these kind of negotiations between the Dalai Lama 0:34:19.120 --> 0:34:22.440 and the Chinese government to try to like find a 0:34:22.560 --> 0:34:27.640 kind of resolution to like how bad things were into Bet. 0:34:27.680 --> 0:34:30.479 And in two thousand and nine, Dalai Lama goes, yeah, 0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:33.160 none of this is fucking working, like it's not nothing, 0:34:33.320 --> 0:34:35.400 Like we're not we're not getting anything. The Chinese government 0:34:35.480 --> 0:34:38.960 is not offering us any like any actual deal that 0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:46.440 we can live with. And pretty quickly this so, okay, 0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:49.040 you get this giant wave of self in relations. The 0:34:49.080 --> 0:34:52.040 first guy, this guy named Tape, he is a monk. 0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:54.560 He lights himself on fire in two thousand and nine. 0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:56.200 There's conflicting reports. 0:34:56.280 --> 0:34:56.520 Okay. 0:34:56.560 --> 0:34:59.840 So one of the problems with talking about this is 0:34:59.840 --> 0:35:05.000 that in this period, the internet is not as widespread 0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:07.680 as it is today, and there is a there is 0:35:07.719 --> 0:35:10.240 a giant like there was a Chinese like media cordon 0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:13.319 effectively on on Tibet in a very similar way to 0:35:13.360 --> 0:35:15.600 like West Papua, where they like they won't let journalists in. 0:35:15.640 --> 0:35:18.239 It is very hard to get information out. So the 0:35:18.280 --> 0:35:21.160 thing that I'm about to say is something that is 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:23.000 reported a lot on the time by people who try 0:35:23.000 --> 0:35:24.560 who are trying to smoke the messages out. And the 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:28.040 thing they report is that as this guy is self imlating, 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:30.600 the Chinese police shoot him like multiple times. 0:35:31.280 --> 0:35:34.600 Well, I mean, as we've as we've seen recently, that 0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:37.680 is how cops tend to look at somebody like, yeah, 0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:41.040 someone has let themselves on fire. Clearly what this situation 0:35:41.200 --> 0:35:42.279 needs is a gun. 0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:44.480 And and you know, okay, so like the Chinese police 0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:48.759 they there, I don't I don't have any evidence of 0:35:48.800 --> 0:35:51.840 them shooting people after that. They absolutely one of the 0:35:51.880 --> 0:35:54.040 things that so what happens after this is this wave 0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:56.520 of self immolations is protests across the bed. The thing 0:35:56.560 --> 0:35:59.000 that they absolutely do a lot is start beating the 0:35:59.040 --> 0:36:02.040 person who's on fire the stick, like using like riot 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:03.400 sticks sometimes. 0:36:03.120 --> 0:36:03.520 They have these. 0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:05.960 They have riot sticks with like spikes on them, and 0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:08.920 they are absolutely beating people to death while they are 0:36:08.920 --> 0:36:12.200 burning to death. The Chinese police are like as psychology, 0:36:12.640 --> 0:36:16.280 maybe not quite as like absolutely murderous as the American police, 0:36:16.320 --> 0:36:19.680 but they are like they are beating a burning man 0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:20.160 to death. 0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:21.040 Right that is. 0:36:22.440 --> 0:36:26.400 Oh god, I will say that is that is definitely 0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:28.879 I haven't that certainly, I can't think of anything I've 0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:31.359 ever seen US police do that is more violent than 0:36:31.400 --> 0:36:34.360 beat a man to death while he's on fire. Yeah, 0:36:34.400 --> 0:36:36.319 that's up there. That makes the cut. 0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:38.520 It's really bad. 0:36:39.200 --> 0:36:41.480 And this is the kind of thing that you know, 0:36:41.560 --> 0:36:42.920 I mean, this is this is the kind of thing 0:36:42.920 --> 0:36:44.880 that that sets off these self in relations in the 0:36:44.880 --> 0:36:47.920 first place, which is that to Bet has you know, 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:52.279 like has has a colonial occupation, right it has. You know, 0:36:52.360 --> 0:36:54.960 the Chinese government has been attempting to suppress to Bet 0:36:54.960 --> 0:36:59.200 and Buddhism. There's been a massive way like systemic, massive 0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:01.960 ecological struction of the Tibetan plateau so that the Chinese 0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:05.560 government can like mine gold and shit. And in a 0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:07.719 way that's very similar to sort of like the ecological 0:37:07.719 --> 0:37:10.920 demonstation you get in places like the Amazon. There are 0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:13.239 you know, there they are intense police crack downs all 0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:15.560 the time. There's another very famous incident that's like kind 0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:17.840 of one of the things that leads to this, where 0:37:18.520 --> 0:37:20.880 in nineteen eighty nine there's there's a bunch of protests 0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:23.200 in Tibet and the cops just start shooting them. They 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:26.480 kill a bunch of people, and so you know, and 0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:29.480 people had been like up in twent two thousand and 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:32.719 nine people that kind of had this promise that things 0:37:32.719 --> 0:37:34.360 were going to get better because you know, you have 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:37.240 these negotiations between the Chinese government and the Dalai Lama, 0:37:38.400 --> 0:37:41.560 and then the Dalai Lama turns around and goes, yeah, no, 0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:42.520 they're not giving us anything. 0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:44.640 Like they're giving us nothing. The Chinese states policy on 0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:49.239 Tibet is that effectively, we're going to like we're we're going, 0:37:49.239 --> 0:37:50.120 we're going we're going. 0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:50.319 To like. 0:37:51.760 --> 0:37:54.160 We're going to try to make these people Han effectively. 0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:55.640 One of the things they spend and they do this 0:37:55.680 --> 0:37:57.200 in change On too, is they spend a lot of 0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.560 there's a lot of resources invested in getting like settlers 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:03.200 from other parts of China to booths bet you know, 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:05.680 and you know, as as it's you also and change 0:38:05.719 --> 0:38:08.480 on like the like the cadre jobs are basically all 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:13.120 like government cadre jobs are basically all Han people. And 0:38:13.200 --> 0:38:15.920 so you know, you start getting you start getting attempts 0:38:15.920 --> 0:38:17.920 a civil disobedience. There are these giant protests in two 0:38:17.920 --> 0:38:20.120 thousand and eight, like attempting to make as sort of 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:22.840 like a giant have a giant thing happened right before 0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:26.000 the Olympics in order to get international support and those 0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:29.960 turn into riots, and those are brutally suppressed. And once 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:35.680 that happens, people are really kind of they're running out 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:39.160 of options for civil disobedience because you know, and this 0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:40.839 is one of one of these things about this kind 0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:45.040 of Buddhism is that it's it's very much a like 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:48.120 they're the resistance tradition is nonviolence, right, like these people 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:51.000 sometimes like very very rarely you get riots, but they're 0:38:51.040 --> 0:38:53.720 not like they're not going to try or arm struggle, 0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:59.279 and so what they have is non violence civil disobedience. 0:38:59.280 --> 0:39:00.759 But the problem is that if you try to do 0:39:00.840 --> 0:39:03.120 non violence will do obedience in China, what happens to 0:39:03.160 --> 0:39:04.839 you is just the cops show up and arrest you all, 0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:07.080 and then they rest your families. And this is something 0:39:07.120 --> 0:39:09.719 that happens to the people who self emilate, is that 0:39:10.880 --> 0:39:12.560 there are like one hundred and sixty of them from 0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:16.399 two thousand and nine until now. And when someone lights 0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:18.879 themself on fire, what the Chinese government does is well, 0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:21.279 a they beat the person to death while they're on fire. 0:39:21.880 --> 0:39:26.080 By they start arresting the people's family, they start arresting 0:39:26.080 --> 0:39:28.719 their friends, they start arresting people in the monasteries that 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:32.440 they're at they start doing these purges to like stop 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:35.520 like to remove the sort of Buddhist monks they think 0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:39.520 are going to be problems. And this fuels this kind 0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:42.759 of cyclical wave of this because on the one hand, 0:39:43.040 --> 0:39:45.080 you know, there's this incredible repression going on. On the 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:49.600 other hand, it's not possible to like wage really like 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:52.680 wage other kinds of mass so dis obedience campaigns. And 0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:55.600 the thing about lighting yourself on fire is that the 0:39:55.640 --> 0:39:59.640 government can't stop it, right, Like in theory, you could 0:40:00.160 --> 0:40:02.719 maybe trained police to stop people from blighting people on fire. 0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:05.239 But the thing is, the actual thing that happens when 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:07.239 you light when someone lights themself on fire, is the 0:40:07.280 --> 0:40:11.799 cop goes and beats them. And so it becomes this 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:16.920 sort of it becomes the sort of like the cycle 0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:20.160 of self in relations. And also, I mean the other 0:40:20.200 --> 0:40:23.480 thing that's worth mentioning too is people. There are a 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:29.880 few other cases of Tibetan Buddhists, like outside of outside 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:31.080 of the better you do it, there's a few people 0:40:31.080 --> 0:40:35.400 in India and you let themselves on fire, and I 0:40:35.400 --> 0:40:39.400 don't know, I think the Tibetan example is really bleak 0:40:39.520 --> 0:40:45.160 because it doesn't work, like they lose and this is 0:40:45.200 --> 0:40:47.680 one of these situations where I don't know, like I 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:50.879 legitimately don't know how they could have won, because they 0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:55.279 were dealing with a enormous, a very very powerful state 0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:59.040 apparatus that was very invested in using all of its 0:40:59.040 --> 0:41:00.400 state capacity to trust. 0:41:00.280 --> 0:41:01.720 Them, and. 0:41:03.280 --> 0:41:06.839 It it fails and it it but like the thing 0:41:06.880 --> 0:41:12.319 that it mostly accomplishes is a bunch of is like 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:17.279 just a generation of well, I mean some like the 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:20.400 youngest kid who self inlights is fifteen, right, and it 0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:24.680 mostly accomplishes a bunch of these kids like themselves on 0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:30.000 fire and die and everything is worse now than it 0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:33.560 was in two thousand and nine. Yep, I think, you know. 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:36.240 So they're very recently they're been big. They've been protesting 0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:38.160 to bed again because the CCP is trying to build 0:41:38.160 --> 0:41:40.040 a damn that's going to flood and destroy a bunch 0:41:40.040 --> 0:41:43.279 of monasteries. And I don't think anyone's let themselves on 0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:48.359 fire over it, but the police just arrested everyone, and so. 0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:50.440 I don't know. 0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:56.359 It's really bleak, And I think the freeze Bat movement 0:41:56.400 --> 0:42:01.080 has become much weaker as the sort of like twenty 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:04.000 tens went on to the point where now, I think 0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:06.719 like most America, like most of the sort of like 0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:10.799 broad American far left basically just takes the Chinese line 0:42:10.840 --> 0:42:12.400 on it, which is that like the Dalai Lama was 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:14.520 a slave owner and the Chinese occupation was a gift. 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:17.040 Yeah. Yeah, Like I. 0:42:17.000 --> 0:42:18.680 Want to take like two, like a couple like a 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:21.240 minute to talk about this because like that a lot. 0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:22.239 Yeah. 0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:24.239 And it's this thing where, like, you know, it's really 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:26.239 interesting looking at a lot of these people who are 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:29.239 who are anti Tibet but pro Palestine, because you know, 0:42:29.280 --> 0:42:31.400 if you look at the originators et cetera colonial studies, 0:42:31.440 --> 0:42:33.200 like people like Patrick Wolfe, right, who was like the 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:36.719 godfather of cetera colonialism studies, Tibet is one of the 0:42:36.760 --> 0:42:39.680 states that he holds up like as the paradigmatic example 0:42:40.120 --> 0:42:44.200 of of what cetera colonialism is. It's Palestine and Tibet, right, 0:42:45.239 --> 0:42:48.120 And you know, I like the thing about oh it 0:42:48.200 --> 0:42:50.120 was because they were trying to like free the Tibetan 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:53.080 search really pisses me off because if that was the 0:42:53.160 --> 0:42:57.000 actual thing the CCP wanted to do, they could have 0:42:57.680 --> 0:43:00.200 done a thing that happened all over the fucking world 0:43:00.200 --> 0:43:02.560 in communist countries, which is they could have moved in, 0:43:02.600 --> 0:43:04.080 they could have knocked off the government, and they could 0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:05.759 have set up a communist Tibetan state. 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:06.120 Right. 0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:09.280 This happens all over the fucking Eastern Bloc. There's precedents 0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:12.040 for it in East Asia, which you know, there's a 0:43:12.040 --> 0:43:14.160 president of Mongolia, which was also i mean a very 0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:17.560 different Buddhist society, but also in largely Buddhist society, where 0:43:17.680 --> 0:43:19.680 the Soviet Union went in, knocked off the government and 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:22.040 set off set up an independent Mongolian state. 0:43:22.480 --> 0:43:22.680 Right. 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:25.160 And I'm not going to say things like went great 0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:27.760 form Mongolia, but the thing is, if if your actual 0:43:27.800 --> 0:43:31.759 objective is just knock off a theocratic government that you 0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:34.240 don't like, you could have done that, and they don't, 0:43:34.320 --> 0:43:37.000 they don't do it, it's pretty China. 0:43:37.080 --> 0:43:40.239 It's also worth like stating like, yeah, things maybe not 0:43:40.480 --> 0:43:44.000 like didn't work out great in the immediate term for Mongolia, 0:43:44.040 --> 0:43:46.520 but Mongolia is a state right now, is not like 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:49.040 the worst. It's not doing as badly as like Tibet 0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:52.080 is doing, you know, like it's it's an independent country 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:55.680 that functions more or less. Yeah, and who does better 0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:57.080 than functioning more or less? 0:43:57.120 --> 0:43:59.839 Really yeah, Like and this I don't know, and this 0:43:59.880 --> 0:44:02.600 is this is the sort of that's and that's one 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:07.319 of the things that like Chinese nationalists tend not to 0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:09.120 really use that line. I mean, they use it a 0:44:09.200 --> 0:44:11.480 bit when when they're when they're personally like when they 0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:13.600 have to like specifically make arguments about the Dalai Lama, 0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:17.239 that's something they do. But most of the arguments that 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:19.720 the that the actual like supporters of the Chinese government 0:44:19.760 --> 0:44:21.640 in China, the arguments they make is like, oh, well, 0:44:21.680 --> 0:44:23.840 these people are like, these people are shitty barbarians and 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:25.400 we have to like we have to civilize them, and 0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:27.400 like our invasion was a gift to them because we're 0:44:27.400 --> 0:44:30.360 going to civilize these people. And like it's it's literally 0:44:30.400 --> 0:44:34.000 it's like identical to the ship that like the Israeli 0:44:34.000 --> 0:44:37.480 say about Palestinians. We should also very briefly mention that 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:39.880 a lot of the surveillance technology that's used in Tibet, 0:44:40.320 --> 0:44:43.680 like our cameras, that the Chinese government sells to Palestine. 0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:49.040 So keep that shit in mind. Yeah, And I don't know, 0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:51.680 but it's it's this This is one of the really 0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:54.640 bleak examples because the thing about self immolation as of 0:44:54.680 --> 0:45:02.000 politics is that like it functions by mobile someone else, right, 0:45:02.719 --> 0:45:05.400 And in some cases that's that's you know, that's another government, 0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:07.960 in some cases that's your own government, in some cases 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:10.360 that's the people around you. But if you're in a 0:45:10.480 --> 0:45:13.920 state where the government does not give a shit about 0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:20.720 you and they have the ability to ruthlessly repress anyone 0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:25.000 who's inspired by your actions, it just it leads to 0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:29.560 a lot of people dying. And I don't know what 0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:32.480 this sort of lesson from that is other than it's 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:35.880 really hard for and this is this is the thing 0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:38.080 with Hong Kong too, is it's it's really hard for 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:44.520 any one, any one part of China to try to 0:45:44.520 --> 0:45:47.919 go into revolt against the government because there's so much 0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:51.120 more of the rest of China, and if if you, 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:54.080 if you, if you alone, are pitted against the entire 0:45:54.200 --> 0:45:57.040 mighty of Chinese state that has brought popular backing your fucked. 0:45:58.520 --> 0:46:01.160 Yeah, it's really bleak. 0:46:01.520 --> 0:46:04.920 But yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't have anything positive to 0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:10.279 say there. Hey, everybody, Robert here. Our discussion ran very long, 0:46:10.719 --> 0:46:12.399 So this is going to be a two parter. You'll 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:16.799 be hearing about Tunisia and more in the next episode, 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:21.239 but for now, please continue listening. To our podcasts and 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:24.759 not other podcasts, because how would you do that? Who 0:46:24.800 --> 0:46:26.160 would do that? Nobody? 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:26.600 I like. 0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:44.840 Everyone. Robert Evans here back to introduce it could happen 0:46:44.880 --> 0:46:48.480 here Part two of my discussion with me along of 0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:52.759 the history of self immolation protests. We'll be starting with 0:46:52.840 --> 0:46:55.560 Tunisia in this one and then moving on from there, 0:46:55.880 --> 0:47:00.080 so please buckle up and listen in. But I will 0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:03.239 of us on to talking about Tunisia, which is the 0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:07.680 last place we will talk about self immolation protest. 0:47:06.640 --> 0:47:09.040 Oh, I want to end. I guess a bit. I 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:12.319 want to end after you talk about Tunisia with one 0:47:12.360 --> 0:47:13.680 in China. That kind of worked. 0:47:14.320 --> 0:47:17.600 Oh okay, well that'll be nice. So there was a 0:47:17.840 --> 0:47:23.560 you know, Tunisia existed for most of the like twenty 0:47:23.600 --> 0:47:28.719 first century under a dictator. This state of affairs changed 0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:33.399 for unfortunately a fairly limited period of time. On December seventeenth, 0:47:33.520 --> 0:47:36.600 twenty ten, when a young man and he was twenty six, 0:47:37.400 --> 0:47:41.560 Mohammed was Zizi, went out to sell fruit. And you know, 0:47:41.920 --> 0:47:46.799 Mohammed lived in a very poor region, a very poor 0:47:46.840 --> 0:47:50.719 part of Tunisia, the city of cd Boozid. It's about 0:47:50.760 --> 0:47:53.600 one hundred miles south of Tunis, which is the capital, 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:57.080 and like a lot of people you know, in that 0:47:57.160 --> 0:47:59.520 part of the world, it is not uncommon, particularly for 0:47:59.600 --> 0:48:02.520 young men, because unemployment is so high, for young men 0:48:02.719 --> 0:48:05.239 to kind of make their living doing a mix of 0:48:05.239 --> 0:48:07.800 odd jobs and like odd vending, right where you're just 0:48:07.880 --> 0:48:10.360 kind of like selling whatever you can get your hands 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:12.200 on and think that you can make a profit on 0:48:12.280 --> 0:48:16.600 because there's not jobs in the traditional sense, and because 0:48:16.760 --> 0:48:20.239 political corruption was so horrific in the state at that 0:48:20.320 --> 0:48:22.080 point in time. It's one of those things where most 0:48:22.080 --> 0:48:24.880 everybody who's out there selling shit on the street is 0:48:24.920 --> 0:48:27.200 breaking the law by doing it, right, because you can't 0:48:27.200 --> 0:48:29.440 get the permit because the permit is basically a bribe 0:48:29.440 --> 0:48:31.680 and you can't afford the bribe, right, That's how a 0:48:31.719 --> 0:48:34.440 lot of this stuff works. So you know, Mohammed kind 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:37.960 of prior to this, he had been his friends. When 0:48:37.960 --> 0:48:39.880 you read interviews people who knew him, he was always 0:48:39.880 --> 0:48:41.800 like one of these guys who was like really upbeat 0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:46.240 and funny. His nickname basically meant like funny man in town. 0:48:46.800 --> 0:48:50.520 And this had started to change, like friends noticed like 0:48:50.800 --> 0:48:53.960 a couple of years before, you know, twenty ten, when 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:56.920 he's in hits his mid twenties and starts getting into 0:48:56.920 --> 0:48:59.759 his late twenties that he's like, it is impossible to 0:48:59.800 --> 0:49:03.080 get by as a young man. There are no jobs 0:49:03.120 --> 0:49:05.839 for us, there's no future. I don't feel at all 0:49:06.360 --> 0:49:09.600 like I have no nothing to be hopeful for. Right. 0:49:09.880 --> 0:49:13.840 I think a lot of people can understand empathized with 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:16.080 where he was coming from. So he goes out to 0:49:16.120 --> 0:49:21.080 self fruit and this municipal inspector fight a Humdi sees him, 0:49:21.320 --> 0:49:23.919 realizes he doesn't have a permit and takes his shit right, 0:49:24.360 --> 0:49:26.960 and there are accounts that he hits him too. Basically 0:49:26.960 --> 0:49:28.440 he's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? You're not 0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:30.520 paying your god damn bribe and like smacks him around. 0:49:30.920 --> 0:49:34.520 So this is kind of the breaking point foruzz Easy. 0:49:34.880 --> 0:49:36.960 He goes to the police station because he's got like 0:49:37.000 --> 0:49:39.080 this scale that he's using to weigh out fruit and 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:41.919 stuff that he wants to get back it had been confiscated. 0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:44.759 He like can't work without it, and they tell him like, 0:49:44.920 --> 0:49:47.680 fuck you, you're not getting shit back. So he says, like, 0:49:47.680 --> 0:49:49.560 I want to meet with the governor and like plead 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:52.400 my case to the guy in charge, and they're like 0:49:52.440 --> 0:49:54.759 fuck you. The governor doesn't want to see you, so 0:49:55.320 --> 0:49:58.760 at about eleven thirty am, he takes his cart outside 0:49:58.800 --> 0:50:02.160 of the governor's office. He pours I think lighter fluid 0:50:02.239 --> 0:50:05.760 something flammable over his head and he lights himself on fire. 0:50:06.880 --> 0:50:09.920 His cousin gets a call. Ali was easy gets a 0:50:09.960 --> 0:50:12.560 call I guess from someone who was nearby and knew 0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:15.200 them both and was like, Mohammad just lit himself on 0:50:15.280 --> 0:50:19.839 fire in front of the governor's office, and Ali runs there, 0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:23.440 sprints over to the governor's office with his smartphone and 0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:25.880 he gets there in time to record his cousin's body 0:50:25.920 --> 0:50:29.759 being taken into an ambulance. Protests start up after this, 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:32.239 almost immediately, people take to the street. I think it's 0:50:32.280 --> 0:50:34.919 just everyone is living under the same regime. They're living 0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:38.680 over all of these like fucking corrupt ass officials. Everyone 0:50:39.040 --> 0:50:40.120 pieces together this. 0:50:40.760 --> 0:50:42.600 Yeah, and it's also it's worth mentioning this is also 0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:46.520 a period of massive increases food prices, Yes, which are 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:49.400 one of the big Like if you want, if you 0:50:49.440 --> 0:50:53.760 want your protest to work, like spark plus rising food prices, 0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:55.160 great way to get it to happen. 0:50:55.719 --> 0:51:00.480 Yes, so you know the spark catches fire protests start up, 0:51:00.520 --> 0:51:02.640 and they do not calm down. Part of why they 0:51:02.640 --> 0:51:05.000 don't calm down is Ali was easy, stays out in 0:51:05.080 --> 0:51:09.000 the street. He uploads footage of his cousin's body to Facebook, 0:51:09.400 --> 0:51:11.440 and he takes footage of the protests too, and he 0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:14.440 just starts sending shit to Al Jazeera. Right, So this this, 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:16.640 all of this footage he's taking like winds up on 0:51:16.680 --> 0:51:20.280 television that evening, and by the next day other cities 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:23.920 in Tunisia are holding protests. And this is the kind 0:51:24.000 --> 0:51:26.279 of thing where it's like, you know, we all saw this, 0:51:26.760 --> 0:51:28.880 you know, obviously with a different cause in twenty twenty. 0:51:29.000 --> 0:51:32.080 Sometimes something happens that's so horrible that the whole country 0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:34.799 takes to the streets. And that's what happens in Tunisia. 0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:38.040 So the president at the time, basically a dictator, Zeen 0:51:38.320 --> 0:51:42.560 l Abadin bin Ali, does the normal dictator thing. He 0:51:42.600 --> 0:51:45.560 sends out and non dictators, right, we do it here too, Yeah, Yeah, 0:51:45.600 --> 0:51:47.200 he sends the cops out to beat the shit out 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:51.200 of everybody. Right, But he's also he's you talked in 0:51:51.320 --> 0:51:53.560 when we were talking about Vietnam about like the playbook, 0:51:53.560 --> 0:51:55.640 and they didn't quite have it down. Part of the 0:51:55.640 --> 0:51:58.479 playbook is down because in addition to sending the cops 0:51:58.480 --> 0:52:00.319 out to beat the shit out of people, he it's 0:52:00.360 --> 0:52:03.879 Basisi in the hospital because he lingers for a while, right, 0:52:04.280 --> 0:52:07.960 And he also has the officer, the guy who Slappedzizi arrested. 0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:09.840 You know, he's kind of desperately trying, like maybe this 0:52:09.880 --> 0:52:13.359 will call him everybody down. It does not. Waz EASi 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:16.239 dies in the hospital a couple of days later, and 0:52:16.320 --> 0:52:19.600 the protests, which are known now as the Jasmin Revolution. 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:23.200 It takes about a month, but they force beIN Ali 0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:26.040 to flee the country for Saudi Arabia and you know, 0:52:26.120 --> 0:52:30.000 successfully bring an end to his regime and the return 0:52:30.200 --> 0:52:33.680 of a democratic system. There are functional elections for a 0:52:33.680 --> 0:52:37.080 while in Tunisia. They gain a significant amount of like 0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:41.200 political freedom, Like there are some really significant inroads made 0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:44.759 in terms of like civil rights during this period immediately 0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:51.240 after the Jasmin Revolution, but things also don't get better, 0:52:51.640 --> 0:52:53.000 at least not enough. 0:52:53.320 --> 0:52:53.520 Right. 0:52:53.760 --> 0:52:57.319 This is generally seen Tunisia as the start of the 0:52:57.400 --> 0:52:59.920 Arab Spring, and if you know anything about the rest 0:53:00.080 --> 0:53:02.040 the Arab Spring, this was also seen as like kind 0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:04.520 of the successful case, right, Like, shit didn't work out 0:53:04.600 --> 0:53:09.800 very well. In Syria or in Egypt, but like, yeah, Bahrain, 0:53:10.440 --> 0:53:12.400 but here they got rid of the dictator and they 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:14.759 gained a lot of civil rights, and that's great. The 0:53:14.800 --> 0:53:18.800 problem is that the other issues, the high food prices, 0:53:18.840 --> 0:53:22.399 the fact that unemployment is at a night maarish level, 0:53:22.400 --> 0:53:25.160 the fact that corruption was a hideous problem in Tunisia. 0:53:25.239 --> 0:53:27.759 This doesn't just go away, right, because it's deeper than 0:53:27.760 --> 0:53:28.440 the dictator. 0:53:28.600 --> 0:53:29.160 The culture. 0:53:29.200 --> 0:53:31.919 Whenever you have a culture of corruption like this, which 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:33.480 is by the way, it's not just the Middle East 0:53:33.480 --> 0:53:34.680 that has to deal with this, but if you've spent 0:53:34.760 --> 0:53:36.480 time in the Middle East, one of the things that 0:53:36.560 --> 0:53:42.560 is really depressing is how massive and absolutely different, by 0:53:42.560 --> 0:53:44.200 the way, from the kind of corruption that we have 0:53:44.239 --> 0:53:46.560 in the West it is over there, the degree to 0:53:46.600 --> 0:53:49.239 which and you start to care about this not because 0:53:49.239 --> 0:53:51.200 you're getting fucked over as a tourist, because you really 0:53:51.200 --> 0:53:53.319 don't notice it much as a tourist. It's when you 0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:55.640 make friends in that country and you talk to them about, like, 0:53:56.320 --> 0:54:00.000 how many different people are constantly taking a little bit 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:03.279 from them, right, and often not a little bit, like 0:54:03.320 --> 0:54:07.080 the degree to which regular people suffer because every single 0:54:07.120 --> 0:54:10.239 person who is quote unquote a government official is just 0:54:10.280 --> 0:54:14.000 soliciting for bribes. Is that's so much deeper than any 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:16.799 one guy in charge, Right, That's something you can't just 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:19.200 revolt your way out of it. Yeah. 0:54:19.280 --> 0:54:21.680 Like one of my professors in college, I don't know 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:25.000 if you have actually wrote about it, but he's okay, 0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:26.759 long story, but he lived in Egypt for a long 0:54:26.800 --> 0:54:28.640 time and one of the things he would talk about is, 0:54:28.640 --> 0:54:31.680 like that is the concept of like the oddly powerful bureaucrat. 0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:36.319 So like the history was like like the guy who 0:54:36.400 --> 0:54:39.000 sells you tickets at like the train station in Cairo, 0:54:39.680 --> 0:54:42.319 Like that guy, if you don't fucking pay him, he 0:54:42.360 --> 0:54:44.840 can just say no and you can't get on a train. 0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:47.879 And there's just like so many layers of like this 0:54:47.960 --> 0:54:51.160 guy who controls this specific thing and thus can fuck 0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:54.320 you over unless you like do what he tells you, 0:54:54.360 --> 0:54:57.160 which is usually give money. Unfortunately, we need to go 0:54:57.200 --> 0:55:11.640 to ads. We'll be back in a second, and we're back. 0:55:12.480 --> 0:55:15.239 Yeah. And it's part of why it's more durable is 0:55:15.280 --> 0:55:17.840 it's not like you know, I think it's South Vietnam. 0:55:18.680 --> 0:55:21.319 You know, when DM was around, you had a lot 0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:23.759 of you have all this corruption, but a lot of 0:55:23.760 --> 0:55:25.880 it is top down, it is people who are loyal 0:55:25.920 --> 0:55:28.840 to the president. Right, A lot of the corruption in 0:55:28.880 --> 0:55:31.520 places like this is bottom up in that it's not 0:55:31.600 --> 0:55:33.680 a situation where all of these men who are so 0:55:33.800 --> 0:55:37.880 loyal to the dictator have this corrupt position. I mean, 0:55:37.880 --> 0:55:40.000 that's part of it. I'm not saying that it's not, 0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:42.760 but a lot of it is that, like, well, maybe 0:55:42.760 --> 0:55:46.000 it's technically my job to stop the guy who works 0:55:46.000 --> 0:55:48.360 at the train station from denying people entry if they 0:55:48.360 --> 0:55:50.520 don't bribe him. But if I do that, then maybe 0:55:50.560 --> 0:55:52.279 he's going to make a fuss about how I'm doing 0:55:52.320 --> 0:55:55.520 the same thing for like permits to fix your roof 0:55:55.640 --> 0:55:59.160 or whatever. Right, Like, it's so much more bottom up 0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:01.359 in a lot of way. And so the reason this 0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:04.799 matters is that like, shit doesn't really get better in Tunisia, right, 0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:10.320 And now that the so while all these problems continue, 0:56:10.320 --> 0:56:12.640 corruption continues to be an issue, high food prices continue 0:56:12.640 --> 0:56:14.600 to be an issue. Unemployment continued to be an issue, 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:17.799 particularly for young men. Another thing that's changed is that 0:56:17.840 --> 0:56:21.040 now everyone has seen what's easy does has done and like, 0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:23.759 obviously he dies horribly, but one thing that happens is 0:56:23.800 --> 0:56:27.920 like his family moves to Canada, right, like they and 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:29.880 this is I don't think fair to his family. I 0:56:29.920 --> 0:56:31.880 haven't seen evidence they were like corrupt or whatever, but 0:56:31.960 --> 0:56:34.960 like I think because of how like because they're able 0:56:34.960 --> 0:56:37.960 to like get out of this situation, it's seen as like, well, 0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:40.600 maybe if I do this, not only will that hurt 0:56:40.640 --> 0:56:44.160 whoever whatever, corrupt motherfucker you know, I'm angry at but 0:56:44.280 --> 0:56:46.160 maybe shit will work out for my family. 0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:46.480 Right. 0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:49.560 This is often not what actually happens, but there have 0:56:49.680 --> 0:56:53.920 been hundreds of self immolation cases in the last ten 0:56:54.000 --> 0:56:57.160 years in Tunisia. It has become you might compare it 0:56:57.160 --> 0:56:59.719 to kind of mass shootings in the United States. Not 0:57:00.320 --> 0:57:02.319 on a moral level, you're not doing nearly the same thing. 0:57:02.360 --> 0:57:04.319 You're not hurting anyone else, but in terms of the 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:08.400 fact that it is this this really really shocking event 0:57:08.840 --> 0:57:12.160 that then becomes kind of routine because people pick up 0:57:12.160 --> 0:57:13.440 on it as like, well, this is what you do 0:57:13.520 --> 0:57:14.840 in this situation. 0:57:14.520 --> 0:57:14.759 You know. 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:17.400 One of the articles that I read for this was 0:57:17.400 --> 0:57:21.600 an AP News piece that interviews a guy named Hasni Kalea, 0:57:22.200 --> 0:57:24.880 who's one of the dudes, one of the many Tunisians 0:57:24.880 --> 0:57:28.439 who have attempted or succeeded in killing themselves through self 0:57:28.440 --> 0:57:32.000 e malation is an act of protest. Hasney survived, right, 0:57:32.080 --> 0:57:36.439 and he did not survive without serious injury. Right now, 0:57:36.480 --> 0:57:38.960 he has to he covers his face at all times. 0:57:39.000 --> 0:57:41.400 His left hand he's lost a bunch of fingers. His 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:44.240 right hand has no fingers at all anymore. He is 0:57:44.680 --> 0:57:49.160 just grievously injured as a result of this. And he said, 0:57:49.200 --> 0:57:51.600 when interviewed by the AP quote, I would never describe 0:57:51.640 --> 0:57:53.920 the act of self emolation as an act of courage, 0:57:53.960 --> 0:57:57.080 because even the bravest person in the world couldn't do it. 0:57:57.400 --> 0:57:59.800 When I poured the petrol over my head, I wasn't 0:57:59.840 --> 0:58:02.720 really conscious about what I was doing. Then I saw 0:58:02.760 --> 0:58:04.960 a flash, I felt my skin start to burn, and 0:58:05.000 --> 0:58:07.320 I fell down. I woke up eight months later in 0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:10.080 the hospital. And I found that really interesting, because there's 0:58:10.120 --> 0:58:11.600 a lot of talk right now, you know, with what 0:58:11.680 --> 0:58:16.720 Aaron Bushnell did about like principle and courage or mental 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:19.600 illness or whatever, and like to what do we credit 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:24.040 something that is so incomprehensible to most people. And I 0:58:24.120 --> 0:58:27.280 found what Hawsny says here really interesting because what he's 0:58:27.280 --> 0:58:29.840 saying is that like you can't even call it courage. 0:58:30.000 --> 0:58:33.040 You know, it's almost like someone else is doing it. 0:58:33.120 --> 0:58:37.360 You were animated by such rage and hopelessness that it's 0:58:37.400 --> 0:58:41.440 almost like someone else is in control of your body. 0:58:41.480 --> 0:58:43.680 And I don't that doesn't sound like mental illness to 0:58:43.720 --> 0:58:47.680 me for certain. That sounds like someone that sounds like 0:58:48.480 --> 0:58:53.520 desperation of such an extent that it's mind altering. I 0:58:53.520 --> 0:58:55.200 don't know any other way to describe it than that. 0:58:55.960 --> 0:58:57.800 And I'm not saying this is what goes through everybody's 0:58:57.840 --> 0:58:59.480 head when they self immalight. But you don't get a 0:58:59.520 --> 0:59:01.600 lot of inner use with those people after the fact, 0:59:01.720 --> 0:59:02.959 right Yeah. 0:59:03.000 --> 0:59:04.919 Well, like like there's some people who survive into Batan 0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:08.120 and it's like, well those guys, the Chinese government will 0:59:08.160 --> 0:59:10.840 not let anyone near them, right, Like, no, you know, 0:59:10.920 --> 0:59:12.760 and like I guess I should also I should have 0:59:12.760 --> 0:59:15.200 mentioned this about the Chinese government line on this is 0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:17.200 that it's very similar to what you see in the 0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:20.440 American presses like the well, no, you're you're seeing the 0:59:20.560 --> 0:59:23.320 terrorist stuff too here. But like the Chinese government line, 0:59:23.360 --> 0:59:25.720 and this line worked pretty well, is like these people 0:59:25.760 --> 0:59:29.160 were mentally ill, these people are terrorists or they were 0:59:29.200 --> 0:59:32.320 like misled by like the Dalai Lama who's like leading 0:59:32.320 --> 0:59:36.840 his people to the flames. Yeah, and that's been kind 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:40.040 of the that's been kind of the playbook everywhere for this. 0:59:40.160 --> 0:59:41.920 That like the one, the one that kind of works 0:59:42.640 --> 0:59:45.360 is that one. It's it's you have to attack the 0:59:45.400 --> 0:59:47.960 moral character of the person because it's such an it's 0:59:47.960 --> 0:59:51.120 such an act of it's an inherently selfless. 0:59:50.680 --> 0:59:52.160 Selfless Yeah, so the only way to do it. 0:59:52.200 --> 0:59:54.600 You can't describe it anywhere else. They're lighting themselves on fire. 0:59:54.800 --> 0:59:56.320 Yeah, yeah, so and so they like, you know, the 0:59:56.760 --> 0:59:59.640 it's it's it's the the Roger Stone rat fucking thing 0:59:59.640 --> 1:00:02.200 of attack and where they're strong and you know, so 1:00:02.400 --> 1:00:05.120 it's the attack on the moral character that happens. I 1:00:05.120 --> 1:00:08.440 think the thing with Tunisia too is it's like, like 1:00:08.800 --> 1:00:13.120 the political alternative to this is this like rabid anti 1:00:13.120 --> 1:00:14.120 immigrant politics. 1:00:14.720 --> 1:00:17.080 Yeah, we're like we'll talk about that in a second, 1:00:17.200 --> 1:00:20.040 but yeah, it doesn't end. 1:00:20.120 --> 1:00:20.440 Well. 1:00:20.680 --> 1:00:22.160 One thing I do want to hit on is the 1:00:22.200 --> 1:00:25.360 degree to which, again this kind of does function in 1:00:25.360 --> 1:00:28.560 Tunisia as like a mametic virus. Hawsny, the guy we 1:00:28.600 --> 1:00:33.280 heard from, survives, but his brother shortly thereafter lights himself 1:00:33.280 --> 1:00:35.600 on fire in an active protest and kills himself and 1:00:35.640 --> 1:00:38.400 his mother attempts to do the same, right like three 1:00:38.400 --> 1:00:42.240 members of the family all carrying out self immolation, and 1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:44.600 it is one of those things. This is listed as 1:00:44.680 --> 1:00:47.680 like an example of the tactic succeeding, and it does 1:00:47.720 --> 1:00:50.640 in terms of it, it gets the regime out of power. 1:00:50.720 --> 1:00:55.040 But things are not better in Tunisia, especially since so 1:00:55.400 --> 1:00:57.080 you know, there is a period of time where there 1:00:57.120 --> 1:00:59.680 is at least a functioning democracy and significant gains for 1:00:59.720 --> 1:01:04.080 civil rights, but because food still doesn't get affordable, there 1:01:04.120 --> 1:01:04.880 aren't jobs. 1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:05.440 A lot. 1:01:05.480 --> 1:01:07.240 You'll find a lot of articles from around twenty twenty, 1:01:07.360 --> 1:01:10.080 especially when people are like, yeah, I guess freedom's nice, 1:01:10.080 --> 1:01:13.000 but it's not really worth much if you're starving, you know, yeah, 1:01:13.440 --> 1:01:17.920 which you know I anyway, all of this leads in 1:01:18.080 --> 1:01:21.600 part to the coming to power of the guy who 1:01:21.680 --> 1:01:26.920 is currently leading Tunisia, Kiss Sayed. And as you noted, Mia, 1:01:27.160 --> 1:01:29.600 you know this guy is a populist. He is elected 1:01:29.600 --> 1:01:31.840 with seventy two percent of the vote. He frames himself 1:01:31.880 --> 1:01:33.800 like populis tinma do is like I am. You know, 1:01:33.840 --> 1:01:36.520 I'm outside the system. I'm going to help you take 1:01:36.560 --> 1:01:39.440 on the elite that have corruptly ruled our country. And 1:01:39.440 --> 1:01:43.200 he also is very anti migrant, right Tunisia. A lot 1:01:43.240 --> 1:01:47.400 of people who migrate into Europe do so through Tunisia 1:01:47.440 --> 1:01:51.360 just for geographical reasons, and he is blaming a lot 1:01:51.400 --> 1:01:53.880 of their problems on He does like great replacement shit 1:01:53.920 --> 1:01:56.840 that all these black migrants are causing our country's problems. 1:01:57.680 --> 1:02:00.880 He inspires a wave of violence against black people in 1:02:00.920 --> 1:02:04.520 Tunisia that's pretty hideous and horrific. And he has gained 1:02:04.520 --> 1:02:08.640 a significant amount of backing from particularly the Italian government, 1:02:08.640 --> 1:02:11.880 I think also the French government, because he's cracking down 1:02:11.880 --> 1:02:14.880 on migrants, right, and those migrants come to Italy and 1:02:14.920 --> 1:02:17.240 France and that's a problem for those governments. So they're 1:02:17.240 --> 1:02:20.240 supporting this guy, who, by the way, has turned himself 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:22.560 into a dictator. All those gains Tunisia had in the 1:02:22.600 --> 1:02:25.160 Lake of the Arab Spring he has rolled back. He 1:02:25.160 --> 1:02:27.880 has centralized power, he has more or less destroyed the 1:02:27.960 --> 1:02:30.920 judiciary is something that's independent, you know, he is if 1:02:30.920 --> 1:02:33.480 he's not a dictator, he's not only that far from it, 1:02:33.600 --> 1:02:36.360 you know. And he's being supported by these these quote 1:02:36.400 --> 1:02:40.320 unquote democratic nations because well, I mean because racism, right, Yeah, 1:02:40.360 --> 1:02:42.760 same reason they support a Gadaffi, Like, yeah, when it 1:02:42.800 --> 1:02:45.040 comes to the politicians, it's a mixture of racism, and 1:02:45.120 --> 1:02:47.280 just like well, racism wins votes, and when it comes 1:02:47.280 --> 1:02:49.880 to like why racism win votes, it's back to racism, 1:02:50.000 --> 1:02:55.200 right anyway, So those are that's Tunisia more or less. 1:02:55.920 --> 1:02:57.440 Unfortunately, we need to go to ads. 1:02:57.480 --> 1:03:12.200 We'll be back in a second, and we're back. Yeah, 1:03:12.240 --> 1:03:15.640 So well let's end on a slightly more positive note 1:03:15.960 --> 1:03:17.880 where well, so the line I was going to give 1:03:18.080 --> 1:03:20.760 was one about how like you know, I mean, this 1:03:20.800 --> 1:03:22.480 is the thing with Tunisia, right, is like you have 1:03:22.600 --> 1:03:25.920 this Tenizia has effectively structural. 1:03:25.640 --> 1:03:27.960 Unemployment rates of like thirty forty percent. 1:03:28.120 --> 1:03:30.520 Right, Yeah, it's and that's the thing that that's the 1:03:30.560 --> 1:03:33.520 thing that can't be solved without changing the economic system. 1:03:34.000 --> 1:03:34.280 Yep. 1:03:34.600 --> 1:03:36.360 If you you know, if you you can have your 1:03:36.400 --> 1:03:38.840 political revolution without your social revolution, you'll be right back 1:03:38.880 --> 1:03:41.640 to where you were in like ten years. The problem though, 1:03:41.840 --> 1:03:43.840 the other thing is you can have your social revolution 1:03:44.000 --> 1:03:45.600 and also end up in the same place, which is 1:03:45.600 --> 1:03:49.560 where we're going with with China. Where So one of 1:03:49.600 --> 1:03:52.680 the there's a very famous okay, I guess the place 1:03:52.720 --> 1:03:55.120 we should start with this is that one of the 1:03:55.840 --> 1:03:57.520 I've talked about this a bit on this show. One 1:03:57.560 --> 1:03:59.920 of the ways that labor works in China like structurally 1:04:00.880 --> 1:04:03.800 is that so you're a contractor, you work for contracting company. 1:04:03.800 --> 1:04:06.440 The contracting company is this like series of shell companies, 1:04:06.760 --> 1:04:09.040 and there's like a there's like there's a payday on 1:04:09.520 --> 1:04:12.480 like New Years because that's when the like the financial 1:04:12.480 --> 1:04:14.240 like the year sort of rolls over and that's when 1:04:14.280 --> 1:04:16.920 you get paid. And so these companies are designed to 1:04:17.600 --> 1:04:20.400 specifically go out of business like the day before New Year, 1:04:20.440 --> 1:04:21.840 so they don't have to pay any of the workers 1:04:21.880 --> 1:04:25.320 for the work that they've done. And this leads to 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:30.640 a rash of protests in China, like every single year 1:04:30.680 --> 1:04:32.400 on New on like New Year's Day, there's like this 1:04:32.640 --> 1:04:35.960 massive there's there's a protests like fucking everywhere because people 1:04:35.960 --> 1:04:38.320 have been screwed. It happens a lot with construction companies, 1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:40.720 and so there's a very like one of the very 1:04:40.720 --> 1:04:43.840 common tactics you see is people like standing on top 1:04:43.880 --> 1:04:46.320 of buildings holding banners saying like we're going to jump 1:04:46.400 --> 1:04:50.120 unless you guys like pay us. And so that that's 1:04:50.200 --> 1:04:52.320 kind of the background of this which is that that's like, 1:04:52.360 --> 1:04:55.680 that's a fairly common kind of like workers protests. In 1:04:55.720 --> 1:04:59.160 twenty twenty one, there's a delivery driver in Jungsu who 1:05:00.160 --> 1:05:03.080 he so something something I didn't really talk about the 1:05:03.080 --> 1:05:06.040 ten episodes is that China's economy is increasingly becoming a 1:05:06.040 --> 1:05:08.280 gig economy. And this has been this has been happening 1:05:08.360 --> 1:05:10.040 for a while now. And so this guy is a 1:05:10.040 --> 1:05:13.160 delivery driver for Ali Baba and he's like, he's like 1:05:13.200 --> 1:05:16.600 trying to change apps, and the app garnishes his wages 1:05:16.640 --> 1:05:19.880 and steals seven hundred dollars from him, and that's an 1:05:20.080 --> 1:05:21.240 enormous amount of money. 1:05:21.920 --> 1:05:24.960 Yeah, I mean the app garnished his wages. As a sentence, 1:05:25.000 --> 1:05:27.200 that just makes me want to light something on fire. 1:05:27.320 --> 1:05:29.240 So I get why this would far protests. 1:05:29.680 --> 1:05:31.240 Yeah, and he like tries to get it back and 1:05:31.240 --> 1:05:33.400 they don't give it to him, and he and he 1:05:33.480 --> 1:05:38.000 lights himself on fire and this turns into so he 1:05:38.080 --> 1:05:41.680 lets self on fire and then like this this is 1:05:41.720 --> 1:05:43.240 this is in twenty twenty one. This is the same 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:46.680 year where that Temu employee falls over dead, like like 1:05:46.760 --> 1:05:48.840 dies in her bed from overwork, and also the same 1:05:48.920 --> 1:05:50.960 year when a Temou employee jumps off of the building 1:05:51.000 --> 1:05:55.360 because of over work. And this sets off like a 1:05:55.680 --> 1:06:02.760 giant kind of shift in the way that the Chinese 1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:07.240 public is thinking about labor, because up until this one, 1:06:07.280 --> 1:06:09.880 people have been, you know, like China. It's it's not 1:06:09.920 --> 1:06:11.680 it's nowhere near as bad as Anesia, but it also 1:06:11.720 --> 1:06:14.240 has this problem of like everyone works. 1:06:14.040 --> 1:06:14.680 Harder and harder. 1:06:14.720 --> 1:06:17.920 You're working, you're working nine nine six, right, You're working 1:06:18.080 --> 1:06:21.880 nine am nine pm, six days a week, and you're like, 1:06:21.920 --> 1:06:23.600 you're working more and more and more hours and you're 1:06:23.600 --> 1:06:26.280 not getting ahead, right, You're still stuck in your shitty 1:06:26.320 --> 1:06:28.760 apartment and your app isn't paying you for the work 1:06:28.800 --> 1:06:34.880 you did. And this leads to a whole like a 1:06:34.920 --> 1:06:39.160 whole thing that sort of culminates in something I talked 1:06:39.160 --> 1:06:40.680 about a bit in the ten of episodes, which is 1:06:40.720 --> 1:06:45.440 the Chinese Supreme Court, Like the Chinese Constitution says you're 1:06:45.480 --> 1:06:47.000 not supposed to be able to work people for longer 1:06:47.000 --> 1:06:51.360 than like thirty five hours unless like special circumstances, and 1:06:51.400 --> 1:06:53.680 the Chinese Supreme Court goes like, well, obviously, you're not 1:06:53.720 --> 1:06:58.760 allowed to work people like twelve out like twelve hours 1:06:58.800 --> 1:07:02.000 a day, six days a week, and that isn't like 1:07:02.080 --> 1:07:05.160 in large part and partially it's because of the the 1:07:05.280 --> 1:07:09.000 Temu suicide and the Temu thing. But the other huge 1:07:09.000 --> 1:07:11.800 contributing factor to this, and the other huge thing contributing 1:07:11.880 --> 1:07:16.880 to Chinese society attempting to reckon kind of with their 1:07:17.000 --> 1:07:22.600 unbelievable overwork culture is is the self immolation. And it's 1:07:22.760 --> 1:07:26.200 it's it's one. It goes viral so fast that there's 1:07:26.200 --> 1:07:28.400 no way to sort of like cover it up. There's 1:07:28.520 --> 1:07:32.160 it's it's you can't the trade government can't really just 1:07:32.240 --> 1:07:34.560 press the racism button like they normally would because this 1:07:34.600 --> 1:07:36.640 isn't someone into back where this isn't someone in Chan John. 1:07:36.720 --> 1:07:41.320 They can't really do that, and so they kind of are. 1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:46.360 They're forced to make at least like some kind of 1:07:46.440 --> 1:07:49.560 change because it pisss off so many people in ways 1:07:49.600 --> 1:07:53.840 that like can't really be contained. So you know, I 1:07:54.080 --> 1:07:56.320 guess the lesson from that, if there is one, is 1:07:58.160 --> 1:08:01.520 sometimes very rarely you can back a government into a 1:08:01.600 --> 1:08:06.200 corner where the normal things that they would say about it, 1:08:06.320 --> 1:08:11.240 or like the normal like mental illness, terrorists, deluded things 1:08:11.280 --> 1:08:17.599 don't work because the raw simplicity of what they did 1:08:17.640 --> 1:08:22.599 and why just breaks through the media sphere thing. 1:08:23.280 --> 1:08:27.360 And it's again very hard to predict obviously, Like this 1:08:27.400 --> 1:08:29.479 isn't the first within the last twelve months. This isn't 1:08:29.479 --> 1:08:31.800 the first self emolation of the United States, right, and 1:08:31.840 --> 1:08:35.240 the last self emolation attacked or not attacks? Sorry I 1:08:35.320 --> 1:08:37.639 should geez, do I have a media. 1:08:37.479 --> 1:08:37.920 Brain or what? 1:08:38.320 --> 1:08:41.840 Well? The last self immolation that we had, which I 1:08:41.840 --> 1:08:44.520 believe was was over climate change. 1:08:44.760 --> 1:08:47.320 Oh there, there there was a Palestine one too. 1:08:47.439 --> 1:08:48.880 Oh there was a past So I guess we've had 1:08:48.880 --> 1:08:50.960 a couple like two in the last or three now, 1:08:51.000 --> 1:08:52.840 I guess in the last like twelve months or so, 1:08:53.360 --> 1:08:55.439 But they didn't the other ones did not really move 1:08:55.479 --> 1:08:57.840 the needle. Yeah, right, why Aaron do mean? I think 1:08:57.880 --> 1:08:59.400 I think part of it might have to do with 1:08:59.400 --> 1:09:02.120 with how to deliver brit It was and how you know, 1:09:02.320 --> 1:09:05.639 it got was very quickly picked up by local media 1:09:05.720 --> 1:09:08.479 and the national media. I don't know's that's really outside 1:09:08.479 --> 1:09:10.320 the scope of these episodes, but I hope you at 1:09:10.360 --> 1:09:13.759 least now have more of a grounding and like how 1:09:13.840 --> 1:09:17.240 this has gone other times, people have used this as 1:09:17.240 --> 1:09:21.080 a method of protest, and hopefully that's of use to 1:09:21.120 --> 1:09:23.360 you anyway, have a good day. 1:09:24.479 --> 1:09:43.439 Bye, Welcome to Dick It appen here a podcast sometimes occasion, 1:09:43.479 --> 1:09:47.760 not even that occasionally, that's about a bunch of not 1:09:48.000 --> 1:09:51.280 very functional massurveillance technology that's being deployed against all of us. 1:09:51.520 --> 1:09:56.080 I'm your host, Mia Wong, also with me as Garrison Davis. Yeah, 1:09:56.120 --> 1:09:58.960 and so today we're gonna be talking more about something 1:09:58.960 --> 1:10:01.040 we've talked about on the show like a couple of times, 1:10:01.680 --> 1:10:05.040 but that is the shot Spotter program, and there was 1:10:05.080 --> 1:10:08.400 there was recently a leak of the locations of all 1:10:08.439 --> 1:10:12.519 of shot Spotter's like gunfire sensors, and with us to 1:10:12.560 --> 1:10:15.800 talk about it are the people who got the leak 1:10:15.880 --> 1:10:20.880 and wrote the article about about where the shotspatter sensors are, 1:10:21.439 --> 1:10:24.599 and that is Drew Meirotro who's a staff writer at Wired, 1:10:24.680 --> 1:10:27.960 and Joey Scott, who's a freelance investigative journalist and photographer. 1:10:28.520 --> 1:10:30.240 And both of you two, welcome to the show. 1:10:30.920 --> 1:10:32.840 Thanks for having us, Yes, thank you. 1:10:34.720 --> 1:10:36.600 Yeah, I'm glad to be talking to you about this. So, 1:10:37.120 --> 1:10:40.920 I guess for the people who don't remember or like 1:10:41.240 --> 1:10:43.400 have not listened to other episodes we've done about this, 1:10:43.560 --> 1:10:45.840 or have read this article, which you should go read 1:10:45.880 --> 1:10:50.720 at wired it's great. Can you describe what ShotSpotter is 1:10:50.920 --> 1:10:54.280 and what it's supposed to do versus what it actually does? 1:10:55.400 --> 1:10:57.120 Sure, Joey, you want me to take this or do 1:10:57.120 --> 1:10:57.600 you want to do it? 1:10:57.680 --> 1:10:57.880 Yeah? 1:10:57.880 --> 1:11:01.479 Go ahead, sure well. Shot Spotter is. 1:11:01.479 --> 1:11:06.080 A sort of controversial gunshot detection system built by the 1:11:06.120 --> 1:11:09.439 company Sound Thinking. On the face of it, the tech 1:11:09.520 --> 1:11:12.960 is sort of straightforward. The company will basically install little 1:11:13.000 --> 1:11:16.320 sensors on street lights and traffic signs and a jurisdiction, 1:11:17.439 --> 1:11:21.320 and these sensors are sort of like algorithmically tuned to 1:11:21.560 --> 1:11:25.759 detect gunshots. So when one of these sensors here's something, 1:11:26.320 --> 1:11:29.679 it basically will send an alert to an incident review center, 1:11:30.240 --> 1:11:32.519 which will then like vet the sound make sure it 1:11:32.560 --> 1:11:35.800 was actually a gunshot before then forwarding it to dispatchers 1:11:35.800 --> 1:11:38.160 who send a cop to investigate the sound. You know, 1:11:38.200 --> 1:11:42.280 activists and academics have been basically saying for years that 1:11:42.360 --> 1:11:46.519 this tech is inaccurate and primes police basically to go 1:11:46.640 --> 1:11:50.519 to low income community communities of color expecting gunshots when 1:11:50.600 --> 1:11:52.320 likely they won't find any. 1:11:52.479 --> 1:11:56.320 Yeah, and I think the specifically low income communities of 1:11:56.360 --> 1:11:59.360 color thing is a big part of this because so 1:11:59.600 --> 1:12:03.679 you'll created a map of where the shot Spotter sensors 1:12:03.760 --> 1:12:06.080 are from the data you got. And I looked at 1:12:06.160 --> 1:12:09.040 Chicago one and immediately I was like, I recognized that map. 1:12:09.080 --> 1:12:10.840 That is the map of where the not white people 1:12:10.840 --> 1:12:15.080 are in the city's. 1:12:14.840 --> 1:12:20.200 Yeah, yeah, it's it's stark. I think a lot a 1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:23.320 lot of the responses that I've seen on Twitter and 1:12:23.800 --> 1:12:26.439 you know, in my email inboxer essentially that like, look, 1:12:26.560 --> 1:12:28.960 this is just a map of where all the not 1:12:29.080 --> 1:12:32.760 white people are and whatever city that it's deployed in. 1:12:33.840 --> 1:12:37.920 Yeah, and y'all did some analysis of what you found 1:12:37.960 --> 1:12:41.599 sort of statistically about where these censors ended up and 1:12:41.680 --> 1:12:44.600 like the sort of the I guess like class and 1:12:44.680 --> 1:12:46.760 racial composition of those places. Can you talk about that 1:12:46.800 --> 1:12:47.280 a little bit? 1:12:48.520 --> 1:12:51.400 Sure, I'll take this one just because I worked on 1:12:51.439 --> 1:12:53.840 the analysis. So yeah, I mean what we found is 1:12:53.880 --> 1:12:57.600 that more than twelve million Americans live in a neighborhood 1:12:57.600 --> 1:13:01.519 with at least one shot Spotter sensor. We basically joined 1:13:02.400 --> 1:13:06.800 census data onto the locations of every single shots botter 1:13:07.520 --> 1:13:11.800 microphone and looked at the demographic composition of those neighborhoods. 1:13:11.840 --> 1:13:13.920 And you know what we found is that an aggregate. 1:13:14.160 --> 1:13:16.680 Nearly seventy percent of the people who live in a 1:13:16.680 --> 1:13:20.760 neighborhood with one set with at least one sensor identify 1:13:20.920 --> 1:13:24.320 as either black or Latine. Nearly three quarters of those 1:13:24.360 --> 1:13:27.559 neighborhoods are a majority not white, and the average household 1:13:27.600 --> 1:13:29.840 income in a neighborhood with at least one sensor is 1:13:30.120 --> 1:13:33.320 fifty thousan dollars a year. So these are low income 1:13:33.360 --> 1:13:35.280 communities of color. It's kind of hard to describe it 1:13:35.320 --> 1:13:36.040 in any other way. 1:13:37.439 --> 1:13:39.040 Yeah, And you know, one of the things, and this 1:13:39.080 --> 1:13:41.960 has been a thing for so I'm in Chicago. There's 1:13:42.000 --> 1:13:44.320 been a huge series of fights over getting rid of 1:13:44.320 --> 1:13:46.080 ShotSpotter here. And one of the things you hear all 1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:49.639 the time that shot is the shots are People will go, no, well, 1:13:49.640 --> 1:13:53.439 we don't use race as a factor for yeah, but 1:13:53.760 --> 1:13:58.320 the ShotSpotter insists that they don't use race at all 1:13:58.400 --> 1:14:03.120 in indetermining where where they put these sensors. But kabba, 1:14:03.400 --> 1:14:07.519 they've still managed to somehow create this map. 1:14:07.560 --> 1:14:08.280 And I don't know. 1:14:08.360 --> 1:14:14.360 I I'm wondering what you think about like their response 1:14:14.560 --> 1:14:16.360 and whether you and I guess this is more of 1:14:16.360 --> 1:14:19.280 a subjective think, like how much do you actually believe 1:14:19.360 --> 1:14:21.200 them when they say this. 1:14:22.200 --> 1:14:27.000 Well, I think when you know, we are investigating this, 1:14:27.200 --> 1:14:30.200 we found that the police don't even know where these 1:14:30.240 --> 1:14:34.400 locations are, and so they're just given ShotSpot or data 1:14:34.520 --> 1:14:36.880 of where to put this stuff. So the police can 1:14:36.960 --> 1:14:39.719 kind of wipe their hands of like, oh, we insisted 1:14:39.760 --> 1:14:42.280 that they put it in this place or anything like that. 1:14:42.680 --> 1:14:45.800 And I think, you know, Drove can probably speak to this, 1:14:45.920 --> 1:14:49.320 but you know, the argument is this is where all 1:14:49.720 --> 1:14:52.880 the shootings are, and so that's where they are. But 1:14:53.400 --> 1:14:56.400 you know, when you investigate that, it doesn't call into 1:14:56.400 --> 1:14:59.599 effect like in other parts of the country outside of like. 1:14:59.600 --> 1:15:00.519 Chicago or something. 1:15:00.560 --> 1:15:04.400 You look at gun violence and where these alerts are, 1:15:04.560 --> 1:15:06.760 you know, they aren't just where the alerts are. And 1:15:07.120 --> 1:15:10.639 you know, Pasadena is an example. You know, shootings happen 1:15:10.680 --> 1:15:14.080 outside of where the alerts are, but they're specifically in 1:15:14.160 --> 1:15:18.120 a very specific part of Pasadena that is poor and 1:15:18.439 --> 1:15:19.080 non white. 1:15:20.439 --> 1:15:23.240 So yeah, yeah, and I think you know, when we 1:15:23.280 --> 1:15:26.639 spoke to sound Thinking, you know, I think it's important 1:15:26.680 --> 1:15:28.479 to point out here that they did not dispute or 1:15:28.520 --> 1:15:32.120 findings or the sort of authenticity of the doc. But 1:15:32.920 --> 1:15:34.559 you know, they said what you would expect that the 1:15:34.600 --> 1:15:38.160 sensor deployment is not really informed by race. And you know, 1:15:38.200 --> 1:15:40.680 the way it works, as Joey says, is that the 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:43.600 company basically asks police department who purchased the systems for 1:15:43.760 --> 1:15:47.960 data about gun violence, which Sound Thinking says is objective. 1:15:48.040 --> 1:15:50.400 But we have no idea what that data actually looks like, right. 1:15:50.479 --> 1:15:53.639 We don't know if it's all crime data, which might 1:15:53.640 --> 1:15:56.920 be you know, a subject to enforcement bias, right if 1:15:56.920 --> 1:15:59.879 they include things like drug crimes on their drug arrests. 1:16:00.240 --> 1:16:05.240 So we just don't really know why Sound Thinking, you know, 1:16:05.960 --> 1:16:10.960 makes a recommended plan for their sensor deployment. The other 1:16:11.000 --> 1:16:13.559 thing that Sound Thinking had told me is that, you know, 1:16:13.720 --> 1:16:16.000 sometimes they'll ask for data and they'll do it this 1:16:16.160 --> 1:16:18.599 sort of data informed way, but other times cops will 1:16:18.640 --> 1:16:20.760 just say, like, look, we want the we want the 1:16:20.800 --> 1:16:23.400 deployment in this area, and that might include like a 1:16:23.439 --> 1:16:26.559 stadium or a school or places where people gather. So 1:16:26.680 --> 1:16:29.960 you know, it's kind of we don't really know why 1:16:30.800 --> 1:16:33.799 exactly Sound Thinking is deploying its centers in any given location. 1:16:35.160 --> 1:16:37.519 Yeah, and having them be deployed by cops is like, 1:16:37.920 --> 1:16:43.680 he is a spectacular way to have cop brain in 1:16:44.160 --> 1:16:48.400 terms of locations which not not not not I don't know, 1:16:49.320 --> 1:16:52.440 not an especially good way to get a statistically unbiased 1:16:52.479 --> 1:16:55.479 sampling of where you would potentially want these things. So 1:16:55.600 --> 1:16:58.120 I guess I guess the a thing we should talk 1:16:58.160 --> 1:17:01.000 about in terms of what the issues what the system 1:17:01.120 --> 1:17:05.200 is are. Okay, So ShotSpotter claims that it and this 1:17:05.240 --> 1:17:06.880 is something I've seen over and over and over again. 1:17:06.920 --> 1:17:09.439 It claims it is a ninety seven percent accuracy rate 1:17:10.120 --> 1:17:15.400 of detecting gunshots. There's just I don't believe it. None 1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:18.920 of the research I've ever seen backs that up. You 1:17:18.920 --> 1:17:21.519 talk a bit about a bit about like what it 1:17:21.680 --> 1:17:25.519 what it's actually detecting, versus what what they sort of 1:17:25.520 --> 1:17:26.040 claim it is. 1:17:27.479 --> 1:17:30.960 Yeah, I think, well, I guess the overreaching kind of 1:17:31.000 --> 1:17:35.400 theme here is we just don't know. ShotSpotter is very 1:17:36.120 --> 1:17:40.920 not transparent about their data. There have been really no 1:17:41.040 --> 1:17:45.519 peer reviewed, independent studies of the technology. So when we 1:17:45.600 --> 1:17:49.479 make when we talk about, you know, how effective it is, 1:17:49.520 --> 1:17:52.160 that that is a claim that ShotSpotter makes based off of, 1:17:52.840 --> 1:17:56.479 you know, very little information given to the public about it, 1:17:56.960 --> 1:17:59.519 you know, And that's kind of the big issue is 1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:03.479 when you start getting down into the nitty gritty of 1:18:03.560 --> 1:18:07.599 like what's actually going on. You notice that a lot 1:18:07.640 --> 1:18:11.639 of the times what they consider a gunshot, police will 1:18:11.640 --> 1:18:14.760 investigate and find out it was a firework, which if 1:18:14.800 --> 1:18:18.240 you live in you know, I use Pasadena because it's 1:18:18.240 --> 1:18:20.960 next to me. Out here in La you know, fireworks 1:18:21.000 --> 1:18:23.760 are kind of how we celebrate and it's a different 1:18:23.840 --> 1:18:24.760 kind of language out here. 1:18:24.800 --> 1:18:26.479 You know, fireworks happen all the time. 1:18:26.600 --> 1:18:29.720 So once you start getting into looking at some of 1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:32.320 the data that I have been able to get, you 1:18:32.360 --> 1:18:36.800 start seeing that, you know, maybe they claim it was 1:18:36.800 --> 1:18:39.559 a gunshot, but when police show up, they don't find 1:18:39.600 --> 1:18:43.200 any evidence of a gun crime, and sometimes they find 1:18:43.200 --> 1:18:46.320 out it was a car backfiring or construction equipment and 1:18:46.400 --> 1:18:50.519 all of that. And that just kind of shows, you know, 1:18:51.120 --> 1:18:55.479 their claim that it's effective at identifying gunshots is you know, 1:18:55.840 --> 1:18:57.920 very questionable to make that claim. 1:18:59.439 --> 1:19:02.800 Yeah, but you know, their ninety seven like the ninety 1:19:02.800 --> 1:19:05.879 seven percent figure that they cite in their marketing material 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:11.400 is based on police reporting back to ShotSpotter that there 1:19:11.600 --> 1:19:15.439 was a mistake, right like for Shotswatter to count a 1:19:16.439 --> 1:19:18.519 the to count like a gunshot or to count of 1:19:18.560 --> 1:19:21.120 sound as an error, the police have to report it 1:19:21.160 --> 1:19:24.280 back to ShotSpotter, right, So it's almost like by default, 1:19:24.280 --> 1:19:26.880 if they hear nothing, they have one hundred percent accuracy rate. 1:19:27.120 --> 1:19:29.400 But it is say that you know they're informed of this, 1:19:29.880 --> 1:19:32.960 they you know, will adjust that rate well. 1:19:33.000 --> 1:19:35.120 And and also I mean that that that's a metric 1:19:35.200 --> 1:19:38.519 that relies on the cops telling them, like it relies 1:19:38.560 --> 1:19:41.240 on the cops taking an extra step in an investigation. 1:19:41.920 --> 1:19:44.519 And these are like, you are dealing with one of 1:19:44.520 --> 1:19:47.120 the most notoriously lazy group of people, like in the 1:19:47.280 --> 1:19:50.960 entire country, Like I have I have watched these people 1:19:50.960 --> 1:19:53.240 on duty in Chicago. They spend like eighty percent of 1:19:53.280 --> 1:19:55.960 their time standing around on their phones playing candy Crush, right, 1:19:56.080 --> 1:20:00.840 Like this this entire statistics thing requires them to do 1:20:01.040 --> 1:20:04.599 another step. It's like, like, what percentage of the time 1:20:05.200 --> 1:20:07.960 is a cop going to admit that they ran out 1:20:07.960 --> 1:20:10.360 to this thing and like drew their guns and we're 1:20:10.400 --> 1:20:14.640 doing their like whole oh there's been gunshots thing and 1:20:14.680 --> 1:20:20.519 then there's just nothing there, Like I don't know, it 1:20:20.800 --> 1:20:24.479 seems like cast a pall over even this, even even 1:20:24.479 --> 1:20:29.120 the sort of potential that their data can be right, right. 1:20:29.000 --> 1:20:33.040 I mean we all know that cops lie. Yeah, we've 1:20:33.120 --> 1:20:35.800 seen them kind of use shot spotter alerts. You know, 1:20:35.880 --> 1:20:39.040 Chicago was one of the examples where they were using 1:20:39.080 --> 1:20:42.920 it as cover to make illegal stops and you know, yeah, 1:20:43.080 --> 1:20:47.479 that sort of thing. So, you know, if there's room 1:20:47.560 --> 1:20:51.040 for that, it's hard to then take what data police 1:20:51.080 --> 1:20:55.479 are giving them in this way as accurate. And then 1:20:55.520 --> 1:20:58.040 again it goes back to, well, we don't the public 1:20:58.040 --> 1:21:00.840 doesn't get to see any of that information. Oh, we 1:21:00.880 --> 1:21:04.960 don't get to make that I guess distinction between the two, 1:21:05.200 --> 1:21:08.639 and you know, know what's best for people's communities because 1:21:08.640 --> 1:21:10.120 of that. 1:21:10.120 --> 1:21:13.160 That's one of the things about this program that is 1:21:13.200 --> 1:21:18.000 really alarming is that you have this massurveillance technology and 1:21:18.840 --> 1:21:22.439 the people in charge of it were like the people 1:21:22.560 --> 1:21:24.400 people who would be in charge of sort of like 1:21:24.920 --> 1:21:28.720 deciding whether or not you want it. It's like like 1:21:28.760 --> 1:21:32.920 both both the general public and like city mayors et cetera, 1:21:32.960 --> 1:21:36.519 et cetera, seem to have so little information about whether 1:21:36.680 --> 1:21:41.000 about what it's even doing that it's incredibly difficult to 1:21:41.000 --> 1:21:42.800 make any kind of like any kind of sort of 1:21:42.880 --> 1:21:47.120 database choice. All you have is sort of this combination 1:21:47.439 --> 1:21:51.280 of like the company going oh, yeah, well, obviously their 1:21:51.280 --> 1:21:53.200 stuff works, and then this sort of well, I mean, 1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:54.720 this is the thing that's been happening in Chicago, is 1:21:54.720 --> 1:21:56.519 this sort of like crime panic stuff they just that 1:21:56.560 --> 1:21:59.160 people just fall back on, and they combine this sort 1:21:59.200 --> 1:22:02.160 of crime panic with just the assumption that it works 1:22:02.520 --> 1:22:05.519 because that's what it says in the box, and that's 1:22:05.560 --> 1:22:07.880 a I think a really alarming combination to me. 1:22:08.920 --> 1:22:12.839 Yeah, I mean, I think the fact that city council 1:22:13.760 --> 1:22:16.680 members are kept in the dark about the locations of 1:22:16.720 --> 1:22:18.840 these things, as are you know, the police departments to 1:22:18.920 --> 1:22:21.680 pay for the cities to pay for it. I think 1:22:21.680 --> 1:22:25.559 it's you know, something that's really been quite interesting as 1:22:25.600 --> 1:22:28.000 after we published is that, you know, I've gotten a 1:22:28.000 --> 1:22:30.400 bunch of emails from city council members asking, you know, 1:22:30.479 --> 1:22:32.120 asking me if I can provide them data about the 1:22:32.200 --> 1:22:34.479 locations because they can't even get them from the company. 1:22:34.600 --> 1:22:34.800 Right. 1:22:35.400 --> 1:22:38.360 So, yeah, there's a lot of transparency issues here. 1:22:39.439 --> 1:22:42.680 Yeah, and you know, this is a public this is 1:22:42.720 --> 1:22:44.599 a tool being paid with public money. 1:22:45.560 --> 1:22:45.760 You know. 1:22:46.040 --> 1:22:48.519 Another thing we found in the data was that there 1:22:48.560 --> 1:22:51.080 are a list of sensors that are broken or out 1:22:51.120 --> 1:22:55.559 of service or anything like that. In talking to various 1:22:55.760 --> 1:23:00.320 police departments, ShotSpotter doesn't let them know when that happens, 1:23:00.680 --> 1:23:01.439 and you know. 1:23:01.560 --> 1:23:03.960 Referred us to talk as the shot spot about that. 1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:07.599 So you know, not even the functionality of like how 1:23:07.640 --> 1:23:11.160 many sensors are down are really communicated and that's a 1:23:11.240 --> 1:23:16.000 huge problem. But like again this data, as a journalist 1:23:16.000 --> 1:23:21.280 to investigate it, to request documents, I can count at 1:23:21.360 --> 1:23:25.599 least three separate cities where shot spotter intervened and said 1:23:25.600 --> 1:23:28.160 the release of the data would be a trade secret. 1:23:28.880 --> 1:23:35.280 And so therefore, yeah, so like even any data that 1:23:35.439 --> 1:23:39.599 shows transparency of like anything more detailed than just an 1:23:39.680 --> 1:23:44.280 alert that many cities have, ShotSpotter won't release because it 1:23:44.320 --> 1:23:48.800 is quote unquote a trade secret. Mind you, I have 1:23:49.920 --> 1:23:53.760 gotten documents from other cities that are more detailed, and 1:23:53.760 --> 1:23:55.920 then when I request those from other cities, shot Spotter 1:23:55.960 --> 1:23:58.120 intervenes and goes, no, that's a trade secret. 1:23:58.200 --> 1:24:01.160 So it's this kind of. 1:24:02.640 --> 1:24:06.480 Trying to hide the transparency that then adds more skepticism 1:24:06.520 --> 1:24:12.640 to the effectiveness and usefulness of the product, which the 1:24:12.640 --> 1:24:16.640 public I believe everyone would agree, deserves a right to know, 1:24:16.720 --> 1:24:19.400 especially if it's taxpayer money. 1:24:19.560 --> 1:24:21.280 Yeah, so it's a lot of money too. 1:24:22.840 --> 1:24:24.640 So speaking of a lot of money, unfortunately we have 1:24:24.640 --> 1:24:27.040 to take an ad break, so we will be back 1:24:27.120 --> 1:24:33.479 in a second. 1:24:39.000 --> 1:24:39.920 Okay, we are back. 1:24:40.360 --> 1:24:43.360 Something I wanted to talk about with the way that 1:24:43.400 --> 1:24:48.160 these sensors are used, so about actually, okay, sorry, I 1:24:48.160 --> 1:24:51.720 should have actually figured out the exact date after which 1:24:51.760 --> 1:24:54.439 the story originally came out, but maybe like four or 1:24:54.479 --> 1:24:56.640 five days after your story came out. There was a 1:24:56.640 --> 1:25:00.519 story that came out of Chicago about a sort of 1:25:01.320 --> 1:25:05.800 effectively the cover up of a case where CPD was 1:25:06.240 --> 1:25:09.240 responding to a shot spotter ping and it was just 1:25:09.400 --> 1:25:12.360 like a thirteen year old kid shooting off fireworks and 1:25:12.520 --> 1:25:14.880 the cop showed up and immediately started shooting, and like, 1:25:14.960 --> 1:25:18.320 thankfully cops can't set up a barn, so the kid 1:25:18.360 --> 1:25:21.920 didn't get shot, but like, this child had a cop 1:25:21.960 --> 1:25:24.680 shoot at him while the kid was running towards the 1:25:24.680 --> 1:25:28.719 cop going no was fireworks. Yeah, So I was wondering 1:25:28.760 --> 1:25:32.760 what kind like, you know, how many of those kinds 1:25:32.760 --> 1:25:34.479 of stories did you run into when you were sort 1:25:34.520 --> 1:25:39.240 of like doing this, running into the story, and yeah, 1:25:39.240 --> 1:25:41.000 what is the impact of that stuff sort of been? 1:25:41.960 --> 1:25:46.800 You know, I think that that example that you bring 1:25:46.880 --> 1:25:51.840 up is particularly egregious, But what happens more often, I think, 1:25:51.960 --> 1:25:56.360 are these there's sort of like less dramatic events where 1:25:56.479 --> 1:25:59.599 you know, sound thinking or shot spotter will detect two 1:25:59.600 --> 1:26:05.080 shots and deploy cops to a corner, and you know, 1:26:06.479 --> 1:26:09.360 they'll detain someone on the scene, run their name through 1:26:09.400 --> 1:26:11.400 their you know, their databases, and find that this guy 1:26:11.439 --> 1:26:13.760 has got a bench warrant, or you know, pick someone 1:26:13.840 --> 1:26:14.720 up on a misdemeanor. 1:26:14.800 --> 1:26:14.960 Right. 1:26:15.200 --> 1:26:19.320 So, like I think, you know, while there are some 1:26:19.400 --> 1:26:23.080 really egregious examples, a thing that that I think about 1:26:23.080 --> 1:26:26.960 a lot here is that is just how much unnecessary 1:26:27.000 --> 1:26:30.360 how many unnecessary arrests are happening because of ShotSpotter, right, 1:26:30.400 --> 1:26:34.200 how many people are being picked up on bullshit essentially? 1:26:36.080 --> 1:26:39.320 Yeah, And you know that that recent case in Chicago 1:26:39.320 --> 1:26:42.040 with the kid with the firework, and you know, it 1:26:42.080 --> 1:26:46.000 wasn't too long ago that you know, Adam Toledo was shot, Yeah, 1:26:46.040 --> 1:26:48.639 a thirteen year old kid for the same reason. Cops 1:26:48.680 --> 1:26:52.280 were responding to a shot spotter alert. And the Chicago 1:26:52.280 --> 1:26:55.160 o i G and their report about it kind of 1:26:55.200 --> 1:26:58.080 highlighted one of the things, which is cops are just 1:26:58.200 --> 1:27:03.960 primed to be you know, expecting you know, gunfire, somebody 1:27:04.040 --> 1:27:07.080 shooting at them and everything. And you know, I think 1:27:07.080 --> 1:27:09.960 that's that is a danger, you know, but again to 1:27:09.960 --> 1:27:12.120 what Druv's saying is like it also leads to a 1:27:12.160 --> 1:27:16.200 lot of unnecessary stops. It opens up people to be 1:27:16.320 --> 1:27:21.839 profiled and padded down, and you know, so both options 1:27:21.840 --> 1:27:25.080 are not great, you know, when you consider the harm 1:27:25.120 --> 1:27:28.120 that this causes. It's just we all know that, Like, 1:27:28.520 --> 1:27:31.200 cops are very jumpy to begin with, So you know, 1:27:31.280 --> 1:27:34.080 they hear a firework or you know, an acorn hits 1:27:34.120 --> 1:27:36.600 their cop car or something. We all know that, Like, 1:27:37.479 --> 1:27:41.640 that's probably not what we need police to be expecting 1:27:41.720 --> 1:27:44.080 on a call. And so you're just telling people, oh, 1:27:44.200 --> 1:27:46.479 gunshots and then then they're going to run in expecting 1:27:46.720 --> 1:27:50.040 to be fired upon. And I don't think that's great 1:27:50.200 --> 1:27:51.200 for society. 1:27:52.600 --> 1:27:59.160 You were talking about that, So I don't know if 1:27:59.160 --> 1:28:01.559 there's much more to say. I think that's true. We 1:28:01.600 --> 1:28:02.920 dot acorn cop. 1:28:03.439 --> 1:28:05.760 I think the a corn incident stands on itself. I 1:28:05.760 --> 1:28:07.559 don't think it needs to even be talked about. I 1:28:07.600 --> 1:28:13.920 think it I think one sentences speaks speaks a whole 1:28:13.960 --> 1:28:18.800 book's worth of possible analysis of police behavior, and no 1:28:19.439 --> 1:28:23.799 being the notion of police rushing into every situation thinking 1:28:23.840 --> 1:28:26.920 that there's there was there was a gunshot obviously has 1:28:26.960 --> 1:28:28.760 its inherent problems. 1:28:29.120 --> 1:28:32.320 Now, Like mind you, a lot of the times, you know, 1:28:32.439 --> 1:28:36.280 and at least in in other cities, it's sixty to 1:28:36.479 --> 1:28:39.840 eighty percent of the time they don't find anything, you know, 1:28:39.920 --> 1:28:44.920 which I think is good in the sense that nobody's 1:28:44.920 --> 1:28:47.360 being harmed or stopped, but it's also bad when you 1:28:47.400 --> 1:28:52.400 consider the effectiveness and utility of the device, you know, 1:28:52.520 --> 1:28:56.439 which shot Spatter has kind of distanced themselves from, you know, 1:28:56.520 --> 1:28:59.679 this idea of preventing gun crime or lowering croun crime 1:28:59.720 --> 1:29:03.479 and more are in terms of like safety and arriving 1:29:03.520 --> 1:29:08.639 to a scene quicker to render aid and help police 1:29:09.160 --> 1:29:12.320 find shell casinges. You know, you've seen over the years 1:29:12.600 --> 1:29:16.240 the kind of switch of focus on what the technology does, 1:29:16.360 --> 1:29:19.320 and that most certainly happened around the time they changed 1:29:19.360 --> 1:29:22.040 their name to Sound Thinking, Yeah. 1:29:22.760 --> 1:29:24.280 I think you know. The other thing I wanted to 1:29:24.320 --> 1:29:27.880 mention here is that, you know, from a different leaked 1:29:27.920 --> 1:29:32.280 internal report from the State's Attorney's Office in Illinois, in 1:29:32.280 --> 1:29:35.559 Cook County, Illinois, it found that like a third of 1:29:35.720 --> 1:29:38.479 arrests stemming from a shot spotter alert actually had nothing 1:29:38.520 --> 1:29:40.280 to do with a gun In the first place. So 1:29:40.320 --> 1:29:43.120 it's not even like you know, there eighty nine percent 1:29:43.120 --> 1:29:46.559 of alerts, don't, you know, result in finding a shell casing. 1:29:46.640 --> 1:29:49.800 It's that even when there are arrests that occur from 1:29:49.800 --> 1:29:52.360 a shot spotter alert, thirty percent of them have nothing 1:29:52.400 --> 1:29:54.280 to do with a gun, right, And that just shows 1:29:54.280 --> 1:29:57.160 you sort of the criminalization of what happened of people 1:29:57.200 --> 1:29:59.400 in areas that have these microphones. 1:30:00.400 --> 1:30:03.800 Yeah, and I think the combination of those two things 1:30:04.520 --> 1:30:07.120 gets you to this point about Shotspatter's effectiveness, which is 1:30:07.160 --> 1:30:09.760 that like, Okay, so we've had ShotSpotter for a while 1:30:09.840 --> 1:30:14.720 in Chicago, right, Chicago police do not solve murders like 1:30:14.960 --> 1:30:18.840 it's sub it's their murder clearance rate. And you have 1:30:18.880 --> 1:30:20.960 to keep in mind that murder clearance doesn't actually mean 1:30:21.040 --> 1:30:24.240 they solved a murder. But like even that jacked up 1:30:24.320 --> 1:30:27.200 murder clearance rate I don't think has had like I 1:30:27.320 --> 1:30:30.160 think they may have had one year in my entire life, 1:30:30.200 --> 1:30:33.960 over fifty percent. And that was because murder clearance counts 1:30:34.080 --> 1:30:37.240 if two people both shoot each other and they both die, 1:30:37.640 --> 1:30:40.519 that counts as a clearance, or they find us their 1:30:40.520 --> 1:30:43.639 suspect dies in like another way. So it's it's pretty 1:30:43.720 --> 1:30:48.599 clear that it's not actually substantively contributing to Chicago Police 1:30:48.640 --> 1:30:50.760 department solving murders. Like you have a better than coin 1:30:50.840 --> 1:30:53.560 flip odds if you kill someone in Chicago that like 1:30:54.080 --> 1:30:57.679 the police aren't even gonna like really try to figure 1:30:57.680 --> 1:30:59.479 out what happened. And so yeah, I think I think 1:30:59.520 --> 1:31:00.960 it makes a lot of sense that they've been pivoting 1:31:01.000 --> 1:31:05.519 away from even like even claiming that this can do 1:31:05.600 --> 1:31:08.320 anything to solve gun violence, because it just clearly hasn't 1:31:08.800 --> 1:31:11.680 at all, and it's and instead it seems to be 1:31:11.800 --> 1:31:14.360 doing a bunch of other stuff, which is like either 1:31:14.520 --> 1:31:18.599 throwing cops around doing is like throwing cops around chasing 1:31:18.720 --> 1:31:23.759 like shadows, which either results in them arresting just random 1:31:23.800 --> 1:31:30.000 people or like having these really sort of terrifying incidents, 1:31:31.680 --> 1:31:35.559 or it just results in straight up nothing. 1:31:36.320 --> 1:31:38.360 Yeah, we're gonna go to ads. We'll be back in 1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:55.160 however long capitalism dictates, So see you then we're back. 1:31:56.000 --> 1:31:58.920 And I think, like looking at the effectiveness, like two 1:31:58.960 --> 1:32:02.000 cities that have continued to deny shot spot or contracts 1:32:02.360 --> 1:32:06.559 are Atlanta and Portland, two cities that spend a lot 1:32:06.640 --> 1:32:10.200 of time thinking about how they equip their police spend 1:32:10.240 --> 1:32:13.080 a lot of time like making sure that their police 1:32:13.520 --> 1:32:19.080 are able to serve the largest amount of the community possible. 1:32:20.880 --> 1:32:24.400 And the fact that like specifically Atlanta with their massive 1:32:24.479 --> 1:32:28.040 like flock program of an integrated camera network across the 1:32:28.040 --> 1:32:30.439 whole city, like it is one of the most surveilled 1:32:30.520 --> 1:32:35.599 cities in the country, if not the most. The fact 1:32:35.640 --> 1:32:37.960 that they are turning down this equipment for not being 1:32:38.000 --> 1:32:41.559 effective enough and it being too costly is a sign 1:32:41.720 --> 1:32:43.920 for like, beyond it just being a sign, it's also 1:32:44.040 --> 1:32:46.760 like a look at what why other police departments are 1:32:46.840 --> 1:32:50.080 interested in this and like what it allows them to 1:32:50.160 --> 1:32:54.479 do and being deployed to these various communities that have 1:32:54.720 --> 1:32:58.720 the what like twenty five thousand sensors. But no, I 1:32:58.800 --> 1:33:01.280 mean like they've constantly tried to send this stuff to 1:33:01.320 --> 1:33:04.719 Atlanta and it's like and it's just it's simply not happening. 1:33:05.320 --> 1:33:09.040 And even after twenty twenty that Portland's like, no, it's 1:33:11.000 --> 1:33:15.880 it's two super super useful examples to measure how much 1:33:16.040 --> 1:33:17.880 this technology actually is going to get used for what 1:33:17.960 --> 1:33:21.439 they say it's being used for, versus just having an 1:33:21.439 --> 1:33:26.000 excuse to act like there's gunfire all across the city. 1:33:27.520 --> 1:33:32.080 Yeah, and you know, I think when we start more 1:33:32.840 --> 1:33:37.160 police departments are going to start relying more on technology, sure, 1:33:37.920 --> 1:33:42.680 largely because many departments cannot hire more cops. Now, this 1:33:42.840 --> 1:33:46.000 isn't advocating me. You know, I don't want police departments 1:33:46.040 --> 1:33:48.799 to hire more cops. You know, they've slowly defunded themselves 1:33:48.840 --> 1:33:52.240 in that way. But like you know, cities like Los 1:33:52.280 --> 1:33:55.200 Angeles are trying to grow their surveillance capabilities for that reason. 1:33:55.240 --> 1:33:58.439 They just do not have enough. They say, they do 1:33:58.560 --> 1:33:59.439 not have enough cops. 1:33:59.800 --> 1:34:02.600 And so this is where kind of the surveillance capitalism 1:34:03.080 --> 1:34:06.240 is going to really thrive, is police departments are going 1:34:06.280 --> 1:34:08.840 to get desperate and they're going to start reaching out 1:34:09.280 --> 1:34:13.800 and getting more invasive surveillance technology. And you know, I 1:34:13.920 --> 1:34:18.479 think in some cities, shot spotter is kind of they're 1:34:18.479 --> 1:34:23.200 a way of quieting the narratives about you know, the 1:34:23.320 --> 1:34:26.560 growing gun violence and everything in their communities. You know, 1:34:26.600 --> 1:34:28.479 they're like, oh, look, we've deployed this new toy to 1:34:28.560 --> 1:34:31.840 kind of help us without really solving anything, because we 1:34:31.920 --> 1:34:34.720 all know cops aren't really good at solving crime. Yeah, 1:34:35.760 --> 1:34:38.360 so it kind of gives them cover of like we're 1:34:38.400 --> 1:34:41.479 bad at our jobs. So how do we make it 1:34:41.520 --> 1:34:44.160 look like we're better. Well, let's you know, invest in 1:34:44.240 --> 1:34:46.759 some new technology, so it looks like we're trying something. 1:34:47.439 --> 1:34:49.000 But you know, at the end of the day, it's 1:34:49.040 --> 1:34:51.040 a waste of money. And then the impacts of that 1:34:51.360 --> 1:34:54.280 is harm, you know, greater than the good. 1:34:55.040 --> 1:34:57.559 Yeah, it's like we're spending an enormous amount of money 1:34:57.640 --> 1:34:59.759 to hurt people for no reason. 1:35:01.240 --> 1:35:01.439 Yeah. 1:35:02.120 --> 1:35:05.320 And you know, I think ShotSpotter is only one of 1:35:06.200 --> 1:35:10.040 Sound Thinking's offerings, right, Like they you know, when they 1:35:10.120 --> 1:35:12.240 changed their name to sound Thinking, it's sort of like 1:35:12.880 --> 1:35:15.640 reflected this pivot in the company where now they were 1:35:15.680 --> 1:35:18.880 going to start thinking more about like resource management. Right, 1:35:18.960 --> 1:35:22.720 how do how do we convince departments that our technology 1:35:22.800 --> 1:35:25.680 is going to better help them allocate their resources? And 1:35:25.800 --> 1:35:27.400 you know, surveillance is the way to do that. We 1:35:27.439 --> 1:35:29.960 can measure where crime is, we can measure where gunshots 1:35:30.040 --> 1:35:33.040 is and where gunshots are, and we can deploy police there. 1:35:33.680 --> 1:35:36.720 And one of shot spot or recently Sound Thinking had 1:35:36.880 --> 1:35:41.360 acquired like a notorious predictive policing company called Predpole. That 1:35:41.560 --> 1:35:45.960 happens I think earlier this year. So you know, they're 1:35:46.000 --> 1:35:48.519 trying to expand their offerings here to be this kind 1:35:48.560 --> 1:35:53.519 of resource management solution for departments SEBIA. 1:35:53.600 --> 1:35:58.320 Did you have anything else you wanted to bring up here? Yeah, 1:35:58.520 --> 1:35:59.840 I guess. I guess there's one more thing. I one 1:36:00.080 --> 1:36:00.960 talk about what you said. 1:36:01.000 --> 1:36:04.000 So one of the things that I've heard from places 1:36:04.040 --> 1:36:06.720 that have gotten rid of their contracts is that shotspotters 1:36:07.040 --> 1:36:12.080 not like taking their sensors down even when cities stopped 1:36:12.120 --> 1:36:14.160 doing contracts. I was wondering what you two sort of 1:36:14.240 --> 1:36:14.680 know about that. 1:36:15.600 --> 1:36:15.840 Yeah. 1:36:15.960 --> 1:36:19.280 I reached out to Dayton, Ohio, who recently got rid 1:36:19.320 --> 1:36:22.200 of their contracts, and I reached out, you know, because 1:36:22.200 --> 1:36:26.240 I was like asking departments who had it, like are 1:36:26.320 --> 1:36:29.800 you aware of the status of the sensors or do 1:36:29.880 --> 1:36:31.560 you know the locations? You know? 1:36:31.680 --> 1:36:32.280 Both knows. 1:36:32.439 --> 1:36:36.160 And then I asked Dayton, you know, well, now that 1:36:36.200 --> 1:36:39.880 the contract's over, what happens to the sensors? And they 1:36:40.000 --> 1:36:44.760 basically said, we don't know. That's shotswatter's responsibility, and their 1:36:45.520 --> 1:36:49.960 responsibility is maintenance and care and removal and installation. 1:36:50.720 --> 1:36:52.120 So who knows. 1:36:52.680 --> 1:36:57.240 Obviously somebody knows, because it's not like some person could 1:36:57.280 --> 1:37:01.719 just start climbing telephone poles and installing avalance equipment. So obviously, 1:37:01.840 --> 1:37:04.479 you know, somebody is issuing permits to install stuff and 1:37:05.000 --> 1:37:07.720 put stuff up there. But like you know, as we're 1:37:07.720 --> 1:37:11.000 finding out, city council members don't know, police departments don't know, 1:37:11.680 --> 1:37:15.280 and so who knows what happens to these devices afterwards? 1:37:15.360 --> 1:37:18.880 And then say a city like Chicago, you know, say 1:37:18.920 --> 1:37:22.200 they cancel their contracts, Well, a new mayor can come 1:37:22.240 --> 1:37:25.320 in and then just instantly turn them back on, you know, 1:37:25.439 --> 1:37:27.880 and that way, And so that's kind of the other 1:37:27.960 --> 1:37:30.160 thing we're solely starting to learn here. It's more cities 1:37:30.600 --> 1:37:34.360 start canceling their contracts or not renewing them. You know, 1:37:34.520 --> 1:37:38.640 it is what happens to the technology afterwards, and we 1:37:38.760 --> 1:37:40.799 don't know, which. 1:37:40.640 --> 1:37:41.759 Is not a great sign. 1:37:42.520 --> 1:37:45.639 Like, I mean, you know, it's not good that there's 1:37:45.720 --> 1:37:48.920 just a bunch of states surveillance technology around all the time, 1:37:49.760 --> 1:37:54.400 but it somehow feels even worse that we don't have 1:37:54.520 --> 1:37:56.679 any idea what happens to even if the state decides 1:37:56.680 --> 1:37:59.439 it doesn't want to use it. So yeah, I guess 1:37:59.640 --> 1:38:04.400 on that a somewhat disquieting note. Do you have anything else? 1:38:04.439 --> 1:38:06.120 So you wanted to make sure you get to. 1:38:07.680 --> 1:38:11.519 Oh nothing for me, No, I mean this is you know, 1:38:11.840 --> 1:38:15.640 thanks to you know, somebody brave enough to send us 1:38:15.680 --> 1:38:17.800 the info, and it's the only way this information has 1:38:17.840 --> 1:38:18.760 been able to get out. 1:38:18.840 --> 1:38:20.200 And I think. 1:38:22.000 --> 1:38:25.920 If I implore the public to really research and dig 1:38:26.000 --> 1:38:28.960 into this technology, if their cities are thinking about extending 1:38:29.000 --> 1:38:32.320 their contracts or bringing a contract in and really questioning 1:38:32.600 --> 1:38:35.120 and trying to get shot spatter on the record to 1:38:35.240 --> 1:38:39.000 answer for some of these things. And you know, we 1:38:39.160 --> 1:38:42.080 know what works and what doesn't work. And I think 1:38:42.439 --> 1:38:44.240 most cities are starting to find out that there is 1:38:44.280 --> 1:38:47.880 a better use of that amount of money to stop 1:38:48.120 --> 1:38:53.280 these sort of gun crimes, interventions and other more community 1:38:53.320 --> 1:38:58.120 based solutions rather than just dumping money into surveillance technology. 1:38:58.320 --> 1:39:01.160 And you know, you can get a lot done with 1:39:02.120 --> 1:39:06.800 an eight million dollars. Yeah, you know, it's just it's 1:39:06.880 --> 1:39:08.760 just like there's always money in the Banana Stan sort 1:39:08.760 --> 1:39:10.639 of thing, and there's like there's always money for police. 1:39:11.120 --> 1:39:14.519 So it's just like, why don't we just retransform that 1:39:14.640 --> 1:39:17.840 money into things that actually work in these communities. 1:39:17.360 --> 1:39:19.720 And you know, go behind that. 1:39:20.000 --> 1:39:24.639 So yeah, and I think, I don't know, hopefully hopefully 1:39:24.720 --> 1:39:27.880 this will encourage more cities just stop paying for this shit. 1:39:32.160 --> 1:39:32.360 Yeah. 1:39:32.520 --> 1:39:36.360 So where can people find you choose work? I mean, 1:39:36.360 --> 1:39:38.639 I know, like obviously this one's on Wired, but are 1:39:39.040 --> 1:39:44.400 online places et cetera, et cetera, social media places, plug 1:39:44.439 --> 1:39:50.200 yourself go yayh. 1:39:47.760 --> 1:39:50.120 Well, I'm I'm You can find my stuff on Wired 1:39:50.160 --> 1:39:54.639 dot com and I'm on X or Twitter or whatever 1:39:54.680 --> 1:39:57.080 you want to call it at d Marrow and on 1:39:57.200 --> 1:39:59.560 blue Sky at d Marrow d M E h r O. 1:40:01.560 --> 1:40:06.920 And you can find me on Instagram and Twitter with 1:40:07.520 --> 1:40:11.519 the user name Joey never Joe. And then my writings 1:40:11.560 --> 1:40:14.519 have been in a local press out here in La 1:40:14.880 --> 1:40:17.960 La Public Press and Knock La. 1:40:19.200 --> 1:40:21.320 Yeah, and thank you to both so much for coming on. 1:40:22.360 --> 1:40:26.160 Thanks for having us, Thank you so much, appreciate it. 1:40:27.200 --> 1:40:30.280 Yeah, and I'm gonna encourage everyone else to go get 1:40:30.320 --> 1:40:33.679 your city to not use this stuff because it sucks. 1:40:34.040 --> 1:40:36.519 All right, this has been this has been naked happen here. 1:40:36.600 --> 1:40:38.599 You can find us in the usual places. 1:40:40.560 --> 1:40:58.680 Goodbye, hello, and welcome to it could happen here. This 1:40:58.880 --> 1:41:03.040 is Sharene and today we are talking about you guessed it, Palestine. 1:41:03.840 --> 1:41:06.559 I'm also gonna keep talking about Palestine because there has 1:41:06.600 --> 1:41:08.640 been a genocide happening for the past five months and 1:41:08.680 --> 1:41:12.000 also seventy six years and I refuse to let it 1:41:12.080 --> 1:41:14.519 be forgotten about. But I refused to let it be 1:41:14.600 --> 1:41:17.040 something that we used to talk about, because it's happening 1:41:17.160 --> 1:41:20.120 right now and we need to talk about it. So 1:41:20.240 --> 1:41:23.200 here I am talking about it. And while being a 1:41:23.280 --> 1:41:26.040 public supporter of Palestine has never been popular in the 1:41:26.200 --> 1:41:30.040 United States, since October, we've seen a significant increase in 1:41:30.080 --> 1:41:33.960 the silencing of Palestinian and pro Palestinian voices. And this 1:41:34.120 --> 1:41:38.160 is happening both online and offline. But let's first start 1:41:38.200 --> 1:41:41.960 with the digital sphere, where the censorship of Palestinian voices 1:41:42.040 --> 1:41:46.960 and pro Palestinian content can have really dangerous consequences, especially 1:41:47.080 --> 1:41:49.680 since the vast majority of US consume our news via 1:41:49.760 --> 1:41:53.479 social media these days. Meta, for example, has a long 1:41:53.680 --> 1:41:58.519 history of systematically censoring Palestine related content. While the company 1:41:58.640 --> 1:42:01.559 has stated that it's quote whenever their intention to suppress 1:42:01.600 --> 1:42:05.559 a particular community or point of view, Access Now conducted 1:42:05.600 --> 1:42:09.040 a report where their documentation points to the opposite conclusion. 1:42:10.080 --> 1:42:12.280 The information in this episode, when it comes to Meta 1:42:12.320 --> 1:42:15.000 in particular, will be from the findings of Access Now 1:42:15.120 --> 1:42:17.599 in their report. Because I don't think the report got 1:42:17.640 --> 1:42:20.639 the attention it deserved when it was published on February nineteenth. 1:42:21.600 --> 1:42:25.360 Denying the public from both expressing and seeing content supporting 1:42:25.400 --> 1:42:29.440 Palestine is a very dangerous game that only further bolsters 1:42:29.479 --> 1:42:33.160 Israeli propaganda as well as silences any criticism against the 1:42:33.160 --> 1:42:37.280 settler colony of Israel. This is not okay and it 1:42:37.320 --> 1:42:39.720 should concern you because you have the right to know 1:42:39.840 --> 1:42:44.599 the truth. This pattern of censorship is no glitch. Soon 1:42:44.680 --> 1:42:49.599 after Israel began bombarding Gaza and blatantly committing genocide last October, 1:42:49.880 --> 1:42:53.719 Palestinians and people sharing pro Palestinian messages began to report 1:42:53.840 --> 1:42:56.880 that their content was being censored and suppressed on social 1:42:56.960 --> 1:43:01.960 media platforms, including on Facebook and Instagram. The platforms restricted 1:43:02.000 --> 1:43:05.439 and sometimes even suspended the accounts of Palestinian journalists and 1:43:05.600 --> 1:43:09.559 activists both inside and outside of Gaza, and arbitrarily deleted 1:43:09.600 --> 1:43:13.600 a considerable amount of content, including documentation of atrocities and 1:43:13.720 --> 1:43:17.200 human rights abuses committed by Israel against the Palestinian people. 1:43:18.160 --> 1:43:22.360 Examples of this online censorship show that it is rampant, systematic, 1:43:22.560 --> 1:43:26.880 and global. For instance, Human Rights Watch has documented one 1:43:26.920 --> 1:43:30.479 thousand and fifty cases of peaceful content expressing support for 1:43:30.560 --> 1:43:34.280 Palestine originating for more than sixty countries around the world 1:43:34.720 --> 1:43:39.240 being removed between October and November twenty twenty three. Meanwhile, 1:43:39.360 --> 1:43:43.880 the Palestinian Observatory for Digital Rights Violations has documented around 1:43:43.960 --> 1:43:47.920 one thousand, forty three instances of censorship between October seventh 1:43:48.000 --> 1:43:50.639 of twenty twenty three and February ninth of this year, 1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:56.080 including on Facebook and Instagram, from content removals to very 1:43:56.160 --> 1:44:00.439 blatant restrictions. The following examples illustrate the main pat patterns 1:44:00.479 --> 1:44:04.320 of censorship on Meta's platforms documented since October seventh, twenty 1:44:04.400 --> 1:44:08.479 twenty three. Our first example is Facebook's removal of content 1:44:08.600 --> 1:44:11.719 that was documenting the explosion at at Heity Arab Hospital. 1:44:12.280 --> 1:44:14.960 It removed content shared by people who were on the 1:44:15.040 --> 1:44:18.520 ground during the massacre and during the bombing. The automatic 1:44:18.600 --> 1:44:23.200 deletion of bystander content with evidentiary value, especially during times 1:44:23.240 --> 1:44:26.959 of war, not only violates people's ability to express themselves 1:44:27.040 --> 1:44:31.160 and freely access information, it also hinders current and future 1:44:31.200 --> 1:44:35.639 investigations into alleged war crimes. At atrocities perpetrated in Gaza 1:44:35.880 --> 1:44:39.960 by Israel funded by the United States. There had also 1:44:40.040 --> 1:44:44.679 been suspensions of prominent Palestinian and Palestine related accounts. Meta 1:44:44.760 --> 1:44:48.200 has banned and suspended scores of accounts that posted content 1:44:48.200 --> 1:44:52.599 about Palestine. For instance, October tenth, twenty twenty three, manda 1:44:52.640 --> 1:44:56.040 Weis reported that Instagram had twice suspended the account of 1:44:56.160 --> 1:45:00.200 les La Wara, its West Bank video correspondent. It was 1:45:00.240 --> 1:45:04.240 only after manda Weiss publicized the suspension that the platform 1:45:04.360 --> 1:45:08.600 quickly reinstated her account. Metta also suspended the account of 1:45:08.680 --> 1:45:12.880 Gaza journalists and photographer Motaz Azza, who gained more than 1:45:12.920 --> 1:45:16.960 eighteen point six million followers for reporting on the genocide 1:45:17.000 --> 1:45:20.479 in Gaza. This forced him to create a new backup 1:45:20.479 --> 1:45:24.519 account under at Mota Gaza, which acquired more than one 1:45:24.640 --> 1:45:29.680 million followers within twenty four hours. Meta later did reinstate 1:45:29.800 --> 1:45:34.200 Motaz's original account, but several of Azaza's posts showing dead 1:45:34.280 --> 1:45:38.360 or injured Palestinians were flagged by Instagram for possibly violating 1:45:38.400 --> 1:45:42.479 its policy on adult nunity and sexual activity. Under its 1:45:42.560 --> 1:45:47.160 DOI policy, which stands for dangerous Organizations and Individuals. Meta 1:45:47.240 --> 1:45:51.000 also permanently banned the Arabic and English language Facebook pages 1:45:51.080 --> 1:45:55.040 of Klutz News Network, the largest and entirely volunteer run 1:45:55.160 --> 1:45:59.599 Palestinian news outlet. Which has over ten million followers on Facebook. 1:46:00.400 --> 1:46:04.000 Other news outlets that Meta has temporarily suspended or banned 1:46:04.120 --> 1:46:09.600 include Aigle Radio Network, Breakthrough News, twenty four FM, and 1:46:09.680 --> 1:46:16.040 Palestinian Refugees Portal. In addition, Palestinian journalists Fatten, Edwin, Salehel 1:46:16.160 --> 1:46:20.879 Jafarawi and Ahmed chiheb Alden have all experienced and continue 1:46:20.920 --> 1:46:25.600 to experience content takedowns and account restrictions on Instagram and Facebook. 1:46:26.400 --> 1:46:29.439 There have also been numerous examples of restrictions on pro 1:46:29.640 --> 1:46:34.840 Palestinian users and content. Here are some examples. Meta blocked 1:46:34.960 --> 1:46:38.879 Jerusalem based activist sad Nandberk from live streaming on Instagram. 1:46:39.520 --> 1:46:43.879 It restricted Jewish American artists and author Malli Krabapple's Instagram account, 1:46:44.280 --> 1:46:47.120 and there have also been documented cases of Meta hiding 1:46:47.240 --> 1:46:51.400 Instagram comments that contain the Palestinian flag emoji for being 1:46:51.640 --> 1:46:56.439 quote potentially offensive. Many people have reported being barred from 1:46:56.520 --> 1:47:01.040 commenting on Instagram posts containing Palestine related content. One user 1:47:01.120 --> 1:47:03.400 said that a comment was blocked for over twenty four 1:47:03.479 --> 1:47:07.880 hours without explanation. People have also reported being unable to 1:47:08.040 --> 1:47:11.920 repost or reshare content related to Palestine in their Instagram stories. 1:47:13.240 --> 1:47:16.400 In addition, to the usual screening that Meta imposes on 1:47:16.560 --> 1:47:21.240 graphic or violent content, Meta imposed a quote sensitive content 1:47:21.360 --> 1:47:25.120 warning before users could reshare Palestine related posts via their 1:47:25.160 --> 1:47:30.200 Instagram stories. In some instances, attempts to reshare such content 1:47:30.600 --> 1:47:34.000 generated a blank page and a message stating that quote 1:47:34.120 --> 1:47:39.959 something went wrong. Following the Arab Hospital massacre, people reported 1:47:40.080 --> 1:47:43.440 being unable to reshare a video report that was criticizing 1:47:43.479 --> 1:47:46.960 Western media coverage of the bombing, either via their direct 1:47:47.000 --> 1:47:50.840 messages or Instagram stories. This video report was conducted by 1:47:50.880 --> 1:47:55.720 a Lebanese media outlet called Megaphone. Meta has also repeatedly 1:47:55.800 --> 1:47:59.879 discouraged users from following or sharing content from popular Palestini 1:48:00.120 --> 1:48:03.280 accounts that we're sharing updates on Gaza, in the form 1:48:03.360 --> 1:48:06.280 of prompts saying, quote are you sure you want to 1:48:06.320 --> 1:48:09.719 follow or mention this account? And warnings that certain accounts 1:48:09.760 --> 1:48:14.320 have quote repeatedly posted false information or violated metas community 1:48:14.360 --> 1:48:18.880 guidelines And perhaps the most disturbing incident and one that 1:48:18.920 --> 1:48:21.519 I will never forget and I hope you don't either. 1:48:21.760 --> 1:48:25.240 And if you haven't heard about this, buckle up. Instagram 1:48:25.320 --> 1:48:29.479 repeatedly auto translated the word Palestinian or instances of the 1:48:29.520 --> 1:48:34.000 Palestinian flag use alongside the Arabic phrase at haamdula lain, 1:48:34.400 --> 1:48:38.000 which means praise be to God on people's bios. But 1:48:38.120 --> 1:48:40.960 hamdla lah, by the way, is an extremely innocent phrase 1:48:41.040 --> 1:48:44.360 that is used by all people. Let's speak Arabic essentially, 1:48:44.800 --> 1:48:47.559 and it's said all the time. It's a very peaceful, 1:48:47.680 --> 1:48:50.760 calmly thing to say, ahamdla lah, thank you God. 1:48:51.280 --> 1:48:52.040 But guess what they. 1:48:52.040 --> 1:48:57.040 Translated this into Instagram translated the word Palestinian, the use 1:48:57.080 --> 1:49:00.639 of the Palestine flag along with adamdula la in people's 1:49:00.720 --> 1:49:06.840 bios into Palestinian terrorists are fighting for their freedom. Palestinian 1:49:07.000 --> 1:49:11.800 terrorists are fighting for their freedom? Are you fucking kidding me? 1:49:12.800 --> 1:49:18.240 When a TikTok user uncovered this disturbing pattern, Meta apologized 1:49:18.320 --> 1:49:22.439 and fixed the issue, and we all moved on. One 1:49:22.479 --> 1:49:26.000 of the most insidious ways that Palestinian and pro Palestinian 1:49:26.080 --> 1:49:29.880 voices are being censored and suppressed on Meta's platforms is 1:49:30.000 --> 1:49:33.759 via the restriction of certain accounts reach and visibility without 1:49:33.800 --> 1:49:39.639 any explanation or notification aka shadow banning. For example, following 1:49:39.640 --> 1:49:43.880 the Lebanese media outlet megaphones coverage of the air hospital attack, 1:49:44.280 --> 1:49:48.479 its Instagram account at megaphone News was hidden from search results. 1:49:49.280 --> 1:49:52.559 Evidence also suggests that on October eighth, twenty twenty three, 1:49:53.080 --> 1:49:56.920 Meta hid Instagram content that included the hashtag at uxaflood 1:49:57.040 --> 1:50:02.000 from view. Meta's censorship of Palestine voices and Palestinian related 1:50:02.080 --> 1:50:05.800 content as far from new. In recent years, however, it 1:50:05.920 --> 1:50:09.920 has become increasingly pronounced, with a well documented pattern of 1:50:10.000 --> 1:50:16.599 systematic censorship, algorithmic bias, and discriminatory content moderation emerging. During 1:50:16.600 --> 1:50:21.120 the twenty twenty one Schechtracht protests, social media content expressing 1:50:21.160 --> 1:50:25.719 support for Palestinian rights was deleted, removed, and shadow band 1:50:26.200 --> 1:50:29.519 while users who were sharing such content were suspended or 1:50:29.560 --> 1:50:34.040 prevented from commenting or live streaming, and pro Palestinian hashtags 1:50:34.080 --> 1:50:38.519 were suppressed. These were all serious problems that Meta brushed 1:50:38.560 --> 1:50:42.960 off as quote a technical issue. Let's take a little breather, 1:50:43.320 --> 1:50:45.800 and when we come back, we'll talk about silencing that 1:50:45.960 --> 1:50:49.080 is outside of the digital world, so brb. 1:51:00.200 --> 1:51:00.559 Were back. 1:51:01.640 --> 1:51:04.680 In addition to digital silencing, we have seen cases of 1:51:04.760 --> 1:51:09.040 silencing occurring offline, as Americans are being fired or facing 1:51:09.160 --> 1:51:13.120 threats for speaking out in support of Palestine. An open 1:51:13.240 --> 1:51:16.960 letter published in art Forum on October nineteenth, declared we 1:51:17.200 --> 1:51:20.680 support Palestinian liberation and call for an end to the 1:51:20.800 --> 1:51:24.360 killing and harming of all civilians. It was signed by 1:51:24.560 --> 1:51:28.880 thousands of artists, scholars, and cultural workers, including the Art 1:51:28.920 --> 1:51:33.680 World magazine's editor David Velasco. A week later, Velasco was 1:51:33.760 --> 1:51:36.200 fired from the publication that he had worked at for 1:51:36.360 --> 1:51:41.759 eighteen years, reportedly after pushback from Martin Eisenberg, a major 1:51:41.920 --> 1:51:47.360 art patron, and Ben Batham Beyond Air Wow. At least 1:51:47.439 --> 1:51:51.960 four Art Forum editors have resigned in protest against Velasko's firing, 1:51:52.640 --> 1:51:56.160 and many many more people have lost their jobs. Just 1:51:56.280 --> 1:52:00.599 a few quick examples, A Philadelphia's sportswriter was fired after 1:52:00.680 --> 1:52:05.160 tweeting quote solidarity with Palestine and criticism of a seventy 1:52:05.200 --> 1:52:08.960 six ers post that offered support to Israel after Hamas's attack. 1:52:09.720 --> 1:52:13.679 In another high profile incident, a University of California Berkeley 1:52:13.720 --> 1:52:16.920 professor was sacked as editor in chief of the scientific 1:52:17.040 --> 1:52:20.719 journal eLife after he retweeted an onion article that he said, 1:52:20.840 --> 1:52:25.080 quote calls out indifference to the lives of Palestinian civilians. 1:52:26.160 --> 1:52:29.840 A spokesperson for Palestine Legal, a civil rights group, says 1:52:29.880 --> 1:52:32.679 it has responded to more than two hundred and sixty 1:52:32.840 --> 1:52:37.280 incidents of suppression against Palestinian rights activists over two weeks 1:52:37.320 --> 1:52:40.080 of October, more than it did in all of twenty 1:52:40.120 --> 1:52:45.280 twenty two. The Council on American Islamic Relations also CARE 1:52:45.520 --> 1:52:49.479 or CR, which is a civil rights nonprofit, says it 1:52:49.600 --> 1:52:53.519 received seven hundred and seventy four complaints between October seventh 1:52:53.560 --> 1:52:56.760 and October twenty fourth, which was the largest wave of 1:52:56.840 --> 1:52:59.960 complaints that it's handled since Donald Trump announced his Muslim 1:53:00.400 --> 1:53:04.720 in twenty fifteen. This wave has targeted professional activists as 1:53:04.760 --> 1:53:08.320 well as ordinary people who have spoken in defense of Palestinians. 1:53:08.880 --> 1:53:12.320 It has reportedly also escalated into death threats, as well 1:53:12.320 --> 1:53:15.760 as assaults and visits from the FBI to Muslim individuals 1:53:15.840 --> 1:53:20.280 and mosques. In surprise to absolutely no one in the 1:53:20.400 --> 1:53:23.679 United States, the highest levels of power have long supported 1:53:23.760 --> 1:53:27.800 voices backing Israel and its military. In the words of 1:53:28.000 --> 1:53:31.960 Justin Sadowski, an attorney at CARE, the swift blowback against 1:53:32.000 --> 1:53:36.240 pro Palestinian voices builds on decades of organized efforts to 1:53:36.400 --> 1:53:40.879 quote tar Palestinian rights speech as pro terrorists or anti Semitic. 1:53:41.720 --> 1:53:44.760 The late civil rights attorney Michael Ratner called this the 1:53:44.920 --> 1:53:50.800 quote Palestine exception to free speech. In twenty fifteen, CCR 1:53:50.960 --> 1:53:54.360 and Palestine Legal published a report on the tactics used 1:53:54.439 --> 1:53:58.760 by pro Israel lobbying groups, school administrators, and public officials 1:53:59.040 --> 1:54:03.960 to shut down Palaceesinian rights activists. They included false accusations 1:54:04.000 --> 1:54:07.320 of anti Semitism or support for terrorism, as well as 1:54:07.439 --> 1:54:11.640 legal threats and criminal investigations, and they often succeeded in 1:54:11.760 --> 1:54:17.120 intimidating or deterring Palestinian solidarity activists from speaking out and again, 1:54:17.400 --> 1:54:22.080 this pattern of silencing is not new. The prominent Palestinian 1:54:22.160 --> 1:54:27.679 American scholar Rashid Khalidi recalls feeling overwhelmingly outnumbered at Columbia 1:54:27.800 --> 1:54:31.360 University in two thousand and three when pro Israel advocates 1:54:31.439 --> 1:54:34.680 protested against him and other faculty, as well as students 1:54:34.960 --> 1:54:38.280 who spoke out against Israel amid intense fighting in Gaza 1:54:38.360 --> 1:54:42.200 and the West Bank. News crews hounded him on campus, 1:54:42.360 --> 1:54:46.080 and pro Israel students even made a documentary about the controversy. 1:54:47.080 --> 1:54:50.560 Khalidi says, I think the narrative was pretty firmly in 1:54:50.640 --> 1:54:54.560 the hands of people who supported Israel, but he continued, 1:54:54.800 --> 1:54:58.320 there is a generational change taking place, with young people 1:54:58.480 --> 1:55:02.920 having an entirely different set of views. They consume different media, 1:55:03.400 --> 1:55:06.760 and I think they're more educated, more worldly, and better 1:55:06.880 --> 1:55:11.200 informed than their elders. The recent laws against the boycotting 1:55:11.240 --> 1:55:14.760 of Israel, in particular, which thirty six states have enacted, 1:55:15.360 --> 1:55:19.720 directly stifle political advocacy by making people choose between their 1:55:19.800 --> 1:55:24.000 livelihoods and their First Amendment rights. Last year, the Jewish 1:55:24.040 --> 1:55:28.000 American scholar Nathan Thral announced that he had been disinvited 1:55:28.080 --> 1:55:31.400 from speaking at the University of Arkansas for refusing to 1:55:31.520 --> 1:55:34.840 sign an anti boycott pledge that was required of public 1:55:34.920 --> 1:55:40.440 contractors by state law. Maybe after all this, you're asking yourself. 1:55:40.720 --> 1:55:41.920 So what do we do Now? 1:55:43.080 --> 1:55:45.160 We do exactly what they don't want us to do, 1:55:45.600 --> 1:55:48.760 exactly what they're afraid of us doing, exactly what they're 1:55:48.800 --> 1:55:52.720 trying to deter us from doing. Continue talking about Palestine 1:55:52.760 --> 1:55:56.680 and sharing news and images and information that exposes Israel's 1:55:56.720 --> 1:56:00.960 crime of genocide against the Palestinian people. The same way 1:56:01.080 --> 1:56:03.880 people say to vote with your dollar when it comes 1:56:03.920 --> 1:56:07.080 to boycotting certain brands and choosing where your money goes. 1:56:07.440 --> 1:56:10.000 You can decide how you want to use your social 1:56:10.080 --> 1:56:13.080 media platforms. What do you want to do with your 1:56:13.160 --> 1:56:13.960 digital presence? 1:56:14.720 --> 1:56:15.640 What do you stand for? 1:56:16.720 --> 1:56:20.520 Personally? I think the days of casually and incessantly posting 1:56:20.560 --> 1:56:23.120 about your life are behind us, or at least we're 1:56:23.120 --> 1:56:26.800 headed in that direction. We're utilizing social media in a 1:56:26.880 --> 1:56:31.160 different way now. Seeing how gen Z has utilized TikTok 1:56:31.240 --> 1:56:34.520 to share information is a great example of that. I 1:56:34.600 --> 1:56:37.800 don't think celebrity culture, unfortunately, will ever completely go away 1:56:37.880 --> 1:56:40.640 on social media, but I do think we are demanding 1:56:40.720 --> 1:56:44.640 more of our celebrities now, and I think, especially as 1:56:44.680 --> 1:56:49.600 we're seeing quote unquote trusted news sources pedal disinformation and 1:56:49.680 --> 1:56:53.440 propaganda in an irresponsible and appalling way. To put it 1:56:53.800 --> 1:56:57.160 very lightly, we are relying on each other to share 1:56:57.240 --> 1:57:00.400 real information, and in this case, our resources are coming 1:57:00.480 --> 1:57:03.840 from the people who are directly experiencing the horrors of 1:57:03.920 --> 1:57:07.000 genocide for the past five months and seventy six years, 1:57:08.360 --> 1:57:11.640 and those voices must be amplified. There are a lot 1:57:11.720 --> 1:57:14.520 of solid arguments to be made against social media as 1:57:14.560 --> 1:57:16.360 a whole when it comes to whether or not it 1:57:16.440 --> 1:57:20.280 benefits humanity, but I am seeing something shift now where 1:57:20.280 --> 1:57:23.120 we are able to utilize this tool for our betterment. 1:57:23.720 --> 1:57:26.680 If it wasn't for social media, the movement for Palestinian 1:57:26.720 --> 1:57:30.200 liberation would not be where it is today. People who 1:57:30.280 --> 1:57:33.680 were previously uninformed would never have seen the reality of 1:57:33.720 --> 1:57:36.760 the situation were it not for our ability to learn 1:57:36.800 --> 1:57:40.600 from each other outside of the limitations of mainstream news. 1:57:41.320 --> 1:57:44.320 We are learning to trust the establishment less and trust 1:57:44.400 --> 1:57:48.040 each other more. And I think we're able to use 1:57:48.080 --> 1:57:50.879 social media in this way. It's actually a net positive 1:57:50.920 --> 1:57:54.040 for us. It doesn't have to be empty in mind, 1:57:54.160 --> 1:57:56.080 theming in a way to control us or get us 1:57:56.120 --> 1:57:58.760 to spend our money to keep the capitalism machine in 1:57:58.880 --> 1:58:02.680 good working order. We can decide how we utilize our 1:58:02.720 --> 1:58:05.360 digital presence and the good that can come from it, 1:58:06.200 --> 1:58:09.120 and to be united in this way is extremely powerful 1:58:09.320 --> 1:58:12.800 and it can ignite real change, and at the very least, 1:58:12.880 --> 1:58:15.040 it can be our way of spiting the powers that 1:58:15.200 --> 1:58:19.000 be and refusing to be sheep. Existing in an age 1:58:19.040 --> 1:58:23.200 of mass surveillance is frankly very terrifying. But seeing the 1:58:23.320 --> 1:58:25.760 lengths that companies like Meta will not only go to 1:58:25.920 --> 1:58:29.760 to surveill us, but to monitor what we consume, it's 1:58:29.800 --> 1:58:33.960 extremely revealing of how weak their power actually is. It's 1:58:34.080 --> 1:58:37.720 up to us to take back that power, especially now 1:58:37.920 --> 1:58:40.880 as we are witnessing a genocide happen in real time 1:58:41.120 --> 1:58:43.960 on our silly little devices for the past five months, 1:58:44.320 --> 1:58:47.320 and having people become aware of the slower genocide and 1:58:47.400 --> 1:58:50.880 ethnic cleansing that has taken place for seventy six years. 1:58:51.960 --> 1:58:54.920 So keep talking about Palestine, both in person with your 1:58:54.960 --> 1:58:59.240 peers and family and online. I can't guarantee that you 1:58:59.280 --> 1:59:02.560 won't face pushback or repercussions, because as we know, that 1:59:02.720 --> 1:59:06.120 is a real possibility, but the community of people that 1:59:06.240 --> 1:59:09.600 you gain from learning of and speaking the truth far 1:59:09.800 --> 1:59:13.760 outweighs any individual fear, and I would rather stand for 1:59:13.840 --> 1:59:17.440 something than cower by myself or be controlled by fear. 1:59:18.400 --> 1:59:21.720 We do have the ability to change things. I have 1:59:21.920 --> 1:59:25.520 to believe that something else is possible, but it starts 1:59:25.560 --> 1:59:28.560 with taking the blinders off and making a choice about 1:59:28.600 --> 1:59:31.800 how you want to utilize the tools at your disposal, 1:59:32.480 --> 1:59:36.800 rather than be utilized yourself. And that, my friends, is 1:59:36.840 --> 1:59:39.560 our episode for today. Thank you so much for listening 1:59:39.800 --> 1:59:41.000 and repel us. 1:59:40.960 --> 1:59:57.240 Tone Hello and welcome back to it could happen here. 1:59:57.560 --> 1:59:59.640 I am once again You're a guest host Molly Conger. 2:00:00.080 --> 2:00:04.240 Today is our friend Garrison. Hello, excited to get the 2:00:04.480 --> 2:00:08.200 Robert Rundo rundown. So you already know what we are 2:00:08.240 --> 2:00:10.880 talking about today. It is a guy that you probably 2:00:10.920 --> 2:00:13.840 already know more about than you ever wanted to. It 2:00:14.000 --> 2:00:16.760 is Rob Rundo, the founder of the Nazi fight club, 2:00:16.840 --> 2:00:19.760 the Rise Above movement. You and Robert did a great 2:00:19.760 --> 2:00:23.080 two part Behind the Bastards on RAM back in twenty 2:00:23.160 --> 2:00:23.879 twenty one. 2:00:25.240 --> 2:00:29.040 Which is shockingly three years ago, which does not sound right, 2:00:29.280 --> 2:00:31.040 but I guess is the case. 2:00:31.520 --> 2:00:33.640 It's been a long three years for you, but an 2:00:33.680 --> 2:00:35.240 even stranger one for Rob. 2:00:35.880 --> 2:00:39.960 Yeah, he's been really a country hopic a lot the 2:00:40.040 --> 2:00:40.800 past few years. 2:00:40.880 --> 2:00:42.520 Huh. He's been busy. 2:00:43.080 --> 2:00:45.680 So when you recorded that episode back in January of 2:00:45.720 --> 2:00:49.240 twenty twenty one, Rundo's federal charges had been dismissed by 2:00:49.320 --> 2:00:52.800 Judge Cormack Carney in twenty nineteen. The Ninth Circuit Court 2:00:52.800 --> 2:00:55.600 of Appeals overturned that decision in March twenty twenty one, 2:00:55.760 --> 2:00:57.600 right around the time the episode came out. I think 2:00:57.640 --> 2:01:00.480 at the end of the second episode you had a PostScript, 2:01:00.560 --> 2:01:03.160 like an addendum you recorded afterwards, because before it came out, 2:01:03.920 --> 2:01:05.640 the Ninth Circuit ruling had been issued. 2:01:06.400 --> 2:01:08.000 Okay, okay, but in. 2:01:08.040 --> 2:01:11.840 An almost comical turn of events, Judge Carney has once 2:01:11.960 --> 2:01:15.960 again dismissed those charges two weeks ago. 2:01:16.040 --> 2:01:23.000 Now, so three years later, a few countries later, hopping 2:01:23.120 --> 2:01:27.640 from Serbia to the United States to probably other places 2:01:27.680 --> 2:01:28.320 around Europe. 2:01:29.520 --> 2:01:32.200 Yeah, and we're sort of back in the same position 2:01:32.400 --> 2:01:34.440 you were in when you talked about him three years ago. 2:01:34.880 --> 2:01:36.360 Times that's circle. 2:01:36.960 --> 2:01:38.440 But before we get into one of the sort of 2:01:38.560 --> 2:01:41.720 strangest legal slap fights I've ever read, let's back up 2:01:41.720 --> 2:01:44.440 for a second. Who is Rob Rundo and what was 2:01:44.520 --> 2:01:47.160 he charged with? Yeah, So, if you want a more 2:01:47.280 --> 2:01:49.520 robust look at the early days of the Rise Above movement, 2:01:49.560 --> 2:01:51.680 I do recommend going back and listening to that Behind 2:01:51.720 --> 2:01:53.840 the Bastards two parter on the Rise Above Movement. It 2:01:53.920 --> 2:01:57.240 originally aired in March twenty twenty one, So like, really 2:01:57.360 --> 2:02:00.440 scroll back in your podcast app. But we'll do a 2:02:00.520 --> 2:02:03.600 quick recap here because it's not I can't assign the 2:02:03.680 --> 2:02:09.320 listener homework. So so the Rise Above movement first emerged 2:02:09.360 --> 2:02:11.920 in early twenty seventeen, after a brief period of being 2:02:11.960 --> 2:02:15.360 called the DIY Division Both stupid Dames. I don't know 2:02:15.400 --> 2:02:18.080 which one's better, but Ram. We're just going to call 2:02:18.120 --> 2:02:21.200 them RAM. In twenty seventeen was a big year for 2:02:21.320 --> 2:02:23.640 political violence. It was it was really hot that year. 2:02:24.680 --> 2:02:27.160 The group was, on its surface, a mixed martial arts 2:02:27.240 --> 2:02:30.320 club for white men. They trained together and bonded over 2:02:30.360 --> 2:02:34.560 their shared and abhorrent political views. In their own words, 2:02:34.640 --> 2:02:37.400 they are fighting against the modern world corrupted by the 2:02:37.480 --> 2:02:42.400 destructive cultural influences of liberals, Jews, Muslims, and immigrants, you know. 2:02:43.000 --> 2:02:44.520 And gay people and gay people. 2:02:44.680 --> 2:02:46.880 Yeah, I'm just pretty much pretty much everybody. 2:02:46.680 --> 2:02:49.200 Except you know themselves. 2:02:50.200 --> 2:02:50.400 Yeah. 2:02:51.160 --> 2:02:53.680 Essentially, if you were not a member of the Nazi 2:02:53.760 --> 2:02:55.960 Fight Club, you are a victim of the Nazi fight Club. 2:02:57.160 --> 2:03:00.440 That's the first rule of Nazi fights or whatever. 2:03:00.960 --> 2:03:03.240 The first rule of Nazi fight Club was not don't 2:03:03.240 --> 2:03:05.240 talk about Nazi fight Club. And I think that's they 2:03:05.720 --> 2:03:10.080 shutout it. They cannot stop talking. Like if they had 2:03:10.320 --> 2:03:12.400 just followed the first rule of fight club, they might 2:03:12.440 --> 2:03:15.040 not be in this position. But RAM quickly became a 2:03:15.080 --> 2:03:17.880 staple at rallies in southern California that year. In the 2:03:17.960 --> 2:03:21.000 spring and summer of twenty seventeen, they kept showing up 2:03:21.080 --> 2:03:24.800 and kept throwing punches In March, members assaulted journalists and 2:03:24.840 --> 2:03:28.000 counter protesters at a MAGA rally in Huntington Beach. In April, 2:03:28.040 --> 2:03:30.760 they assaulted numerous counter protesters at a rally in Berkeley. 2:03:31.200 --> 2:03:33.920 In August, RAM members attended Unite the Right in Charlottesville 2:03:33.960 --> 2:03:35.760 and assaulted counter protesters in the streets. 2:03:35.920 --> 2:03:36.240 Again. 2:03:37.320 --> 2:03:38.960 And you know they're not just going to these events 2:03:39.000 --> 2:03:41.080 and getting in fights, right, They're not just like showing 2:03:41.160 --> 2:03:43.040 up and just like it just happens. They're going to 2:03:43.120 --> 2:03:46.320 these events planning on committing these assaults and then bragging 2:03:46.360 --> 2:03:49.960 about the assaults publicly and privately. They're using these acts 2:03:50.000 --> 2:03:52.760 of violence as propaganda and recruitment tools, right like they're 2:03:52.760 --> 2:03:55.440 making little videos they're posting about it. It's not just 2:03:55.520 --> 2:03:57.800 about committing the assault. So the violence is not just 2:03:57.880 --> 2:04:01.440 about physically hurting people. It's part of the larger strategy 2:04:01.480 --> 2:04:05.240 to incite others to join them in this project. And 2:04:05.320 --> 2:04:07.040 that's I mean, you already know this. You covered that 2:04:07.080 --> 2:04:09.240 in your episode three years ago. This is for everybody else, 2:04:09.480 --> 2:04:14.400 and they're still going. Unfortunately, these these they're now often 2:04:14.480 --> 2:04:17.880 called active clubs, are more popular than what they were 2:04:17.960 --> 2:04:21.280 three years ago. They've they've become very a very big 2:04:21.400 --> 2:04:24.600 staple of white supremacist organizing across the United States and Canada, 2:04:24.960 --> 2:04:29.040 mirroring a lot of organizational styles in Eastern Europe. There's 2:04:29.160 --> 2:04:31.920 probably one in your area that you might not know about. 2:04:32.520 --> 2:04:35.520 They are active on telegram, They're actively recruiting. They recruit 2:04:35.560 --> 2:04:36.240 from high schools. 2:04:36.920 --> 2:04:42.440 Is a big increasing problem as Patriot Front becomes more 2:04:42.440 --> 2:04:46.440 and more like fed jacketed between their own Nazi ranks, 2:04:46.640 --> 2:04:50.600 we have seen more people plugging into into these active clubs. 2:04:51.160 --> 2:04:53.959 Right RAM did not go away, it's just sort of morphed. 2:04:54.080 --> 2:04:56.600 And so back in twenty seventeen they said they had 2:04:56.640 --> 2:04:58.960 a lot of members. They probably had like twenty But 2:04:59.080 --> 2:05:02.040 now these active clubs just they do genuinely have chapters 2:05:02.040 --> 2:05:05.440 all over the country. Yeah, but back in the past, 2:05:05.600 --> 2:05:07.960 right So after Unite the Right RAM members decided to 2:05:08.200 --> 2:05:10.200 lay off the rallies a little bit. You know, being 2:05:10.280 --> 2:05:12.520 seen on camera beating a woman into the pavement at 2:05:12.560 --> 2:05:15.320 a rally that ended in a hate crime murder invited 2:05:15.360 --> 2:05:17.960 some bad press and they weren't looking to get door 2:05:18.040 --> 2:05:20.480 knocks at that particular moment, So they backed off a 2:05:20.520 --> 2:05:22.840 little bit at the end of twenty seventeen, but they'd 2:05:22.840 --> 2:05:25.240 spent most of that year attending rallies and getting into 2:05:25.240 --> 2:05:29.880 physical altercations. It wasn't until over a year after Unite 2:05:29.880 --> 2:05:31.920 the Right in October of twenty eighteen, that there was 2:05:32.040 --> 2:05:36.480 any attempt to do anything about this very obvious problem. 2:05:36.880 --> 2:05:39.040 You know, the criminal complaint itself even says that some 2:05:39.120 --> 2:05:41.720 of these assaults were committed in plain view of cops 2:05:41.760 --> 2:05:44.960 who just stood there and did nothing while these guys 2:05:45.040 --> 2:05:47.880 beat the shit out of people in the streets. You know, 2:05:47.880 --> 2:05:50.320 they're in each other's dms, bragging about kicking a woman 2:05:50.360 --> 2:05:52.320 in the head while she's lying on the ground, but 2:05:52.440 --> 2:05:56.360 nobody lifted a finger to stop them. But in October 2:05:56.440 --> 2:05:59.440 of twenty eighteen, two cases were filed. One in the 2:05:59.480 --> 2:06:02.960 Western Virginia charges were filed against Ben Daley, Cole White, 2:06:03.040 --> 2:06:05.760 Thomas Gillen, and Michael Miscelis, And a few weeks later, 2:06:05.840 --> 2:06:09.320 in the Central District of California, charges were filed against 2:06:09.400 --> 2:06:12.680 Rob Rundo, Robert Bowman, Tyler Loub and Aaron Eeson. So 2:06:12.880 --> 2:06:16.240 all eight of them, four in each district. All eight 2:06:16.280 --> 2:06:18.160 of them were charged under the Federal Riot Act and 2:06:18.240 --> 2:06:21.640 conspiracy to riot. I think it was Robert who said 2:06:21.640 --> 2:06:23.640 in the original RAM episode. You know, like if at 2:06:23.720 --> 2:06:26.520 any point early on, like if at any point in 2:06:26.600 --> 2:06:30.000 those first few months of this happening there had been 2:06:30.040 --> 2:06:32.680 any kind of intervention, if anyone had been arrested in 2:06:32.800 --> 2:06:35.080 the act, maybe this could have been nipped in the 2:06:35.120 --> 2:06:38.440 butt and a lot of what happens later wouldn't have happened. 2:06:39.360 --> 2:06:42.920 Or even if they were like beaten up, like if 2:06:43.040 --> 2:06:45.120 like if a group of like Eddie fascists like beat 2:06:45.160 --> 2:06:48.320 them up, that would discidentivize them from going to future 2:06:48.360 --> 2:06:50.640 events to try to beat up other people, right, Like, 2:06:50.840 --> 2:06:53.480 violence is actually very good at doing this specific thing, 2:06:53.720 --> 2:06:55.640 and if you feel like you're gonna go somewhere to 2:06:55.640 --> 2:06:57.120 get b up, you probably don't want to go there. 2:06:57.680 --> 2:07:00.680 And even like divorced from the act at the state 2:07:00.800 --> 2:07:05.080 like that is that is a demotivating factor which has 2:07:05.120 --> 2:07:08.000 been effective against Proud Boys in Portland. Now, obviously some 2:07:08.120 --> 2:07:11.080 of these guys, especially the RAM crew, go there with 2:07:11.160 --> 2:07:13.560 the express interest of getting into fights, So that's something 2:07:13.600 --> 2:07:17.960 you should definitely consider. But yeah, like if as long 2:07:18.000 --> 2:07:19.640 as they have a bad time, it makes them not 2:07:19.720 --> 2:07:21.600 want to come to these things. But when they're able 2:07:21.640 --> 2:07:24.040 to just beat up anyone, they want to without any pushback. 2:07:24.080 --> 2:07:26.160 It's like, yeah, it becomes like a fun thing. It 2:07:26.240 --> 2:07:29.440 becomes like a large amount of incentive is gained for 2:07:30.320 --> 2:07:32.440 going to a rally, whether that's in Huntington Beach or 2:07:32.760 --> 2:07:33.880 halfway across the country. 2:07:34.280 --> 2:07:34.440 Yeah. 2:07:34.480 --> 2:07:36.280 I mean they were having a great time and there 2:07:36.400 --> 2:07:39.240 was no there was no movement to stop this, And 2:07:39.320 --> 2:07:41.840 it's hard to know why it took over a year 2:07:41.920 --> 2:07:43.839 for any charges to get brought. I think you speculated 2:07:43.880 --> 2:07:45.440 in that RAM episode a few years ago that it 2:07:45.480 --> 2:07:48.240 was public pressure. After that in depth reporting came out 2:07:48.280 --> 2:07:50.800 of mainstream press, but I was going back over the timeline, 2:07:50.800 --> 2:07:53.880 and that pro public apiece came out in October twenty seventeen. 2:07:54.200 --> 2:07:55.920 That was just two months after Unite the Right and 2:07:56.000 --> 2:07:59.040 a whole year before those charges were filed. It's not 2:07:59.120 --> 2:08:02.080 really possible to know why they waited so long unless 2:08:02.160 --> 2:08:04.880 some you know, young US attorney wants to level with 2:08:05.000 --> 2:08:08.480 us about it. But I don't foresee that, probably not 2:08:09.360 --> 2:08:11.240 just you know what's going on behind the scenes. But 2:08:11.720 --> 2:08:14.160 I do have one sort of interesting anecdote. A couple 2:08:14.200 --> 2:08:16.680 months ago, I was at an event here in Charlesville. 2:08:17.280 --> 2:08:19.280 It was a panel discussion, and one of the speakers 2:08:19.440 --> 2:08:21.720 was the US Attorney for the Western District of Virginia, 2:08:21.840 --> 2:08:24.720 Chris Cavanaugh. He was speaking to a group of people 2:08:24.720 --> 2:08:26.280 about the work that he does, and he was talking 2:08:26.320 --> 2:08:28.200 about the work that he did on some of these 2:08:28.280 --> 2:08:31.360 sort of extremism cases after Unite the Right. Back in 2:08:31.400 --> 2:08:33.640 twenty eighteen, he was the assistant US attorney here. He's 2:08:33.720 --> 2:08:36.080 been promoted since then. But he worked on the James 2:08:36.120 --> 2:08:38.600 Fields case, and he worked on the Ram case. It 2:08:38.680 --> 2:08:41.520 was filed here in Virginia, and he said something really 2:08:41.600 --> 2:08:43.800 interesting that I hadn't thought about before. So right after 2:08:43.920 --> 2:08:46.280 Unite the Right in August twenty seventeen, a bunch of 2:08:46.400 --> 2:08:49.520 FBI agents were assigned to you know, check out what 2:08:49.640 --> 2:08:53.080 happened here at this mass casualty event. Right, They had 2:08:53.120 --> 2:08:56.440 the resources to investigate and try to develop cases. You know, 2:08:56.920 --> 2:08:58.400 I love my documents. I spent a lot of time 2:08:58.440 --> 2:09:00.280 in the documents, so I've actually seen you know, they 2:09:00.360 --> 2:09:02.560 got some federal search warrants. It was actually an FBI 2:09:02.680 --> 2:09:05.920 agent who dug the round that Richard Preston fired at 2:09:05.960 --> 2:09:08.000 Corey Long out of the mulch In Market Street park. 2:09:08.040 --> 2:09:10.000 You know, they got search warrants for social media for 2:09:10.120 --> 2:09:13.880 a couple of guys who ended up prosecuted locally, Alex Ramos, 2:09:13.920 --> 2:09:16.800 Richard Preston, and New Borton. So it looks like they 2:09:16.800 --> 2:09:19.600 were trying to develop hate crime cases, right, like that 2:09:19.720 --> 2:09:22.400 federal warrant they got for Richard Preston's Twitter account said 2:09:22.400 --> 2:09:25.080 that they were developing I hate crime case and they 2:09:25.200 --> 2:09:27.960 never did so, like right after Unite the Right, they're 2:09:28.000 --> 2:09:30.960 getting these warrants, they're developing these cases. But back to 2:09:31.040 --> 2:09:33.560 that event that I was at with Chris Kavanaugh, the 2:09:33.600 --> 2:09:37.640 US attorney, he said, when the Las Vegas shooting happened 2:09:37.680 --> 2:09:41.280 in October of twenty seventeen, they lost their task force. 2:09:42.200 --> 2:09:45.000 They had this huge volume of agents working trying to 2:09:45.080 --> 2:09:47.960 develop Unite the Right cases. When that shooting happened two 2:09:48.000 --> 2:09:50.240 months later, they all got reassigned. He was left with 2:09:50.280 --> 2:09:51.920 like a skeleton crew, and they just didn't have the 2:09:52.000 --> 2:09:55.200 resources to develop these cases. Like, I don't know how 2:09:55.280 --> 2:09:58.400 the FBI is managing their resources internally so badly that 2:09:58.440 --> 2:10:01.240 they can only handle one mask actualty event at a time, 2:10:02.000 --> 2:10:04.560 or why the Washington Field office was so heavily impacted 2:10:04.600 --> 2:10:07.440 by a shooting in Nevada. But that is what he said, 2:10:07.520 --> 2:10:10.440 So take that as you will. And I think that 2:10:10.560 --> 2:10:13.040 theory is at least in part supported by the fact 2:10:13.080 --> 2:10:16.800 that the federal charges against James Fields didn't get brought 2:10:16.880 --> 2:10:19.720 until June of twenty eighteen. Right, he'd been charged locally 2:10:19.760 --> 2:10:22.120 for the car attack that killed Heather Higher, but the 2:10:22.200 --> 2:10:25.400 federal charges didn't pop up until June of twenty eighteen. 2:10:25.560 --> 2:10:25.920 So I don't know. 2:10:25.960 --> 2:10:28.280 If maybe something shifted in terms of resources in their 2:10:28.360 --> 2:10:32.280 office that summer, I don't know, it's interesting to think about. 2:10:33.200 --> 2:10:35.960 But then, so back to October of twenty eighteen, right 2:10:36.000 --> 2:10:39.360 when these two different RAM cases get filed. Virginia's case 2:10:39.440 --> 2:10:41.240 was actually filed first. It was filed a few weeks 2:10:41.280 --> 2:10:44.120 before the case in California, So I don't know. I 2:10:44.200 --> 2:10:47.480 assumed they were in communication about that, but I don't 2:10:47.520 --> 2:10:50.240 have any special insight into what their federal prosecutor was doing. 2:10:51.040 --> 2:10:53.520 But it's also possible that it just takes the government 2:10:53.600 --> 2:10:57.440 a whole ass year to do anything, no matter what. 2:10:57.880 --> 2:11:00.440 Right In a recent filing in the Rondo case, the 2:11:00.480 --> 2:11:03.800 government's talking about how this investigation was developed, and it says, 2:11:04.800 --> 2:11:06.800 you're gonna shit a break Garrison. It says that the 2:11:06.920 --> 2:11:11.040 FBI investigation into RAM only started when a bartender in 2:11:11.320 --> 2:11:15.720 LA called the FBI a few weeks after Unite the 2:11:15.840 --> 2:11:20.280 Right because he overheard a patron Ben Day quote gleefully 2:11:20.560 --> 2:11:26.760 bragging about having caused havoc during the riots. Amazing, and 2:11:26.960 --> 2:11:29.920 he also quote bragged about hitting a guy and punching 2:11:29.960 --> 2:11:33.640 a girl in the face during protests in Berkeley. So 2:11:33.720 --> 2:11:35.520 that first comment was about Charlesville. He had just come 2:11:35.520 --> 2:11:37.640 home from Charlesville. He was talking about how he caused havoc. 2:11:37.680 --> 2:11:41.040 He's bragging about punching people in Berkeley, and the bartender's like, hmm, 2:11:41.760 --> 2:11:46.600 that's kind of that's suspicious, suspicious. This unnamed complainant also 2:11:46.680 --> 2:11:49.160 told the FBI that Daily and other RAM members had 2:11:49.200 --> 2:11:52.920 come to the bar often and sometimes used it for recruitment. 2:11:53.360 --> 2:11:56.320 They were recruiting the patrons at this bar, and based 2:11:56.360 --> 2:11:58.360 on what he overheard, he told the FBI that the 2:11:58.400 --> 2:12:01.000 group quote did not care about the issues regarding the 2:12:01.040 --> 2:12:04.560 statues in Charlottesville, but rather a quote enjoyed going to 2:12:04.680 --> 2:12:10.360 protests just to raise havoc, cause trouble and fight. So 2:12:10.680 --> 2:12:13.120 it wasn't until a bartender called the FBI to be like, Hey, 2:12:13.160 --> 2:12:15.960 this guy's talking about like doing a lot of gang violence. 2:12:16.160 --> 2:12:18.440 I don't know if you guys know about this, And 2:12:18.520 --> 2:12:21.280 according to that same court filing, the FBI took until 2:12:21.600 --> 2:12:24.000 January of twenty eighteen, so a few weeks after Unit 2:12:24.040 --> 2:12:26.400 the Right and maybe we're looking at September. It took 2:12:26.440 --> 2:12:29.320 them three or four more months until January of twenty 2:12:29.360 --> 2:12:32.080 eighteen to discover in the course of their investigation that 2:12:32.200 --> 2:12:33.840 RAM was based in southern California. 2:12:34.360 --> 2:12:40.600 Great work, great work, everybody, fantastic stuff. They're on it now, Garrison. 2:12:41.160 --> 2:12:43.240 And so at this point, the LA Field Office opens 2:12:43.240 --> 2:12:47.320 an investigation into members in the area. Now I kind 2:12:47.360 --> 2:12:52.160 of hope this isn't true, right, Like, I hope that 2:12:52.240 --> 2:12:56.000 this is not a correct summary of these events, because 2:12:56.080 --> 2:12:58.320 if it really took someone calling the FBI to say, like, hey, 2:12:58.360 --> 2:13:00.080 I heard a guy bragging about doing crime. 2:13:01.480 --> 2:13:04.200 That definitely no, that is definitely how this went down. 2:13:04.360 --> 2:13:06.440 Absolutely that makes so much sense. 2:13:06.800 --> 2:13:09.760 But then it took three months of investigating to figure 2:13:09.800 --> 2:13:12.360 out that the guys who recruit for their Nazi gang 2:13:12.400 --> 2:13:14.880 at a bar in LA probably live in LA. 2:13:15.640 --> 2:13:19.920 Yeah, yeah, I mean that is This is kind of 2:13:20.000 --> 2:13:26.400 how the FBI investigates white supremacist groups, but they have 2:13:27.240 --> 2:13:31.080 they're too busy investigating teenagers in black hoodies. They can't. 2:13:31.360 --> 2:13:34.080 They can't bother to spare the manpower for this. There's 2:13:34.120 --> 2:13:35.200 Antifa out there. 2:13:35.760 --> 2:13:38.240 By the time they got this tip from the bartender, 2:13:38.440 --> 2:13:40.920 that Pro Publica article was already out. Why did it 2:13:40.960 --> 2:13:42.840 take them three months to find out that the guys 2:13:42.840 --> 2:13:46.480 whose names were already in the newspaper lived in California. 2:13:46.560 --> 2:13:51.840 I don't know I trust anyone who lives in Virginia, So. 2:13:51.920 --> 2:13:54.200 It took them a few months, Right, it took some time. 2:13:55.760 --> 2:13:57.480 I hope that's not true, but it is what the 2:13:57.560 --> 2:14:01.320 government has put on the record as the truth. So anyway, 2:14:01.720 --> 2:14:03.760 that's how this case starts. Right, So, these eight members 2:14:03.800 --> 2:14:06.080 of RAM are charged for in Virginia for in California 2:14:06.160 --> 2:14:09.880 with rioting and conspiracy to riot. Just for efficiency's sake, 2:14:10.000 --> 2:14:12.040 I'll just say that the cases in Virginia are fully 2:14:12.120 --> 2:14:15.440 resolved daily Miss Elliskillen, and White all pleaded guilty. There 2:14:15.480 --> 2:14:18.120 were some later unsuccessful appeals where when they after they 2:14:18.160 --> 2:14:20.200 saw what happened in the California cases, they're like, ooh, 2:14:20.520 --> 2:14:23.200 actually us too, can we But that didn't work, and 2:14:23.280 --> 2:14:25.480 their convictions stood and that's all over. 2:14:26.240 --> 2:14:27.080 Where is daily? 2:14:27.160 --> 2:14:27.280 Now? 2:14:27.400 --> 2:14:30.400 Is he out again? There? He's out, He's out. Yeah, 2:14:30.440 --> 2:14:30.840 yeah yeah. 2:14:31.720 --> 2:14:34.520 White didn't get any additional time after his plea because 2:14:34.520 --> 2:14:36.440 he was so cooperative, and the other three all got 2:14:36.760 --> 2:14:37.800 less than three years. 2:14:38.040 --> 2:14:39.360 Yeah yeah, yeah, So they're out. 2:14:40.440 --> 2:14:42.960 But these California cases where Roundo is charged, they have 2:14:43.040 --> 2:14:47.360 been a mess from day one, so the charge October 2:14:47.400 --> 2:14:51.000 twenty eighteen. In twenty nineteen, Judge Cormack Carney dismissed the 2:14:51.080 --> 2:14:54.440 charges in California, saying that the Riot Act was unconstitutionally 2:14:54.520 --> 2:14:58.240 overbroad and its application violated the defendant's First Amendment rights. 2:14:58.640 --> 2:15:02.560 So true, First, I'm a defender here. That's right, travel 2:15:02.640 --> 2:15:05.560 across state lines to riot endorsed by this judge. 2:15:06.880 --> 2:15:09.400 That's free speech. Garrison like love it or leave it, 2:15:09.480 --> 2:15:14.120 go back to Canada. So the prosecutor appealed that ruling 2:15:14.240 --> 2:15:18.040 because it was hawk garbage, and the Ninth Circuit agreed. 2:15:18.560 --> 2:15:20.880 It takes a long time for things to get appealed. 2:15:20.920 --> 2:15:24.080 It's like slower than watching grass grow. So the Ninth 2:15:24.120 --> 2:15:26.840 Circuit reversed that ruling in March of twenty twenty one, 2:15:27.200 --> 2:15:30.560 reinstating the indictments. Things move really so so you know, 2:15:30.600 --> 2:15:32.480 it took two years for them to reverse it and 2:15:32.520 --> 2:15:34.480 then another year to enter the order. So it wasn't 2:15:34.560 --> 2:15:36.600 until February of twenty twenty two that the case was 2:15:36.680 --> 2:15:39.160 formally reopened, in. 2:15:39.240 --> 2:15:43.680 Which case, around this time, Rondo's trying to like hide 2:15:43.800 --> 2:15:47.840 in Eastern Europe and eventually get sent back to the 2:15:47.960 --> 2:15:51.120 United States. Curiously around the same time that Andrew Tate. 2:15:51.240 --> 2:15:57.440 Does God imagine an Andrew tape Rob Rundo fight. Oh okay, 2:15:57.520 --> 2:15:59.360 I wouldn't pay money because I don't want to support them, 2:15:59.480 --> 2:16:00.960 but I would love to watch that. 2:16:01.320 --> 2:16:04.160 Actually send them both back to Romania and let them fight. 2:16:04.440 --> 2:16:09.280 Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, by the time that the. 2:16:09.320 --> 2:16:13.120 California Ram defendants are re indicted on the original charges, 2:16:13.280 --> 2:16:15.800 it's January of twenty twenty three, and only three of 2:16:15.880 --> 2:16:18.240 them get reindicted because Aaron Eeson has died. 2:16:19.520 --> 2:16:22.640 So sad. It doesn't say much more than that a 2:16:22.800 --> 2:16:25.440 tragic loss of life. I don't know. 2:16:25.640 --> 2:16:26.760 I don't want to, I guess I don't want to 2:16:26.760 --> 2:16:28.480 speculate because it doesn't say on the record, and I 2:16:28.560 --> 2:16:31.280 was unable to determine. I can't find anything other than 2:16:31.280 --> 2:16:33.520 the court record. Dismissing his charges because he was dead. 2:16:33.560 --> 2:16:36.000 I can't find any record of his death. It must 2:16:36.040 --> 2:16:39.160 have just been, you know, private. But you know, you 2:16:39.200 --> 2:16:41.080 were talking about that RAM episode a couple years ago 2:16:41.080 --> 2:16:43.400 about how you know they're all about clean living and fighting. 2:16:43.440 --> 2:16:46.199 They're all straight edge, except for all of the ones 2:16:46.240 --> 2:16:47.039 who do trucks. 2:16:47.200 --> 2:16:49.880 A lot of them have really serious drug problems. And 2:16:49.920 --> 2:16:51.600 I don't know for a fact what was going on 2:16:51.680 --> 2:16:54.400 with Aaron Eesan, but I know Robert Bowman had some 2:16:54.520 --> 2:16:57.480 trouble staying out on bond due to a very severe 2:16:57.560 --> 2:17:01.920 meth addiction. Yes, yes, so I don't know what happened 2:17:01.920 --> 2:17:04.680 to Aaron Eastan, but very very pure. You gotta keep 2:17:04.680 --> 2:17:08.840 the blood line pure. So they're reindicted January twenty twenty three. 2:17:09.080 --> 2:17:10.880 And as you guys talked about back in twenty twenty one, 2:17:11.080 --> 2:17:13.480 Rondo had been living in Serbia for most of this time. 2:17:14.080 --> 2:17:18.440 He is overseas making friends, doing fight club, doing Nazi stuff, 2:17:18.560 --> 2:17:19.119 hang out. 2:17:19.959 --> 2:17:24.240 Making bad T shirts, doing bad graffiti, mostly opening up 2:17:24.320 --> 2:17:26.840 T shirt factories. It's really what he spent a lot 2:17:26.879 --> 2:17:27.760 of times. 2:17:27.680 --> 2:17:31.760 Really about the merch You have to merchandise. 2:17:31.840 --> 2:17:35.320 That's the Hey, if you took away. One thing from 2:17:35.560 --> 2:17:38.800 Revolt against the Modern World. It's that Ovola loved merch. 2:17:39.040 --> 2:17:41.720 That's the biggest through line in that work. It's you 2:17:41.800 --> 2:17:45.520 got to sell those stickers, man, You have to. 2:17:45.720 --> 2:17:48.959 It's a sort of a pointy shaped operation. 2:17:49.160 --> 2:17:49.280 Right. 2:17:49.360 --> 2:17:51.760 The guys on the bottom have to keep selling the 2:17:51.800 --> 2:17:54.360 stickers to the guys, and you have to make new bottoms. Right, 2:17:54.440 --> 2:17:58.720 there's there's no bottom. It is a pyramid scheme. Patriot 2:17:58.800 --> 2:17:59.920 Ron is a pyramid scheme. 2:18:00.680 --> 2:18:04.560 Well, and Patriot Front and Rondo had the same sticker 2:18:04.640 --> 2:18:09.680 manufacturer for quite a while. Their websites, well, their merch 2:18:09.760 --> 2:18:11.200 websites were identical. 2:18:12.680 --> 2:18:15.280 Look, I mean, how many webmasters can these Nazi groups have. 2:18:15.560 --> 2:18:18.160 It's gotta be one guy. Yeah, they do not have 2:18:18.200 --> 2:18:22.240 a graphic designer. So anyway, so he's in Serbia. In 2:18:22.440 --> 2:18:25.080 twenty twenty one, Serbia made a big show of saying like, oh, like, 2:18:25.160 --> 2:18:28.240 he's not welcome here. He's deported to Bosnia. He was 2:18:28.320 --> 2:18:30.040 still in Serbia. I think Bell and Cat has some 2:18:30.440 --> 2:18:34.039 great articles tracking exactly where in Belgrade Rondo was hanging out. 2:18:34.240 --> 2:18:36.120 But Serbia was like, no, he's not here, we can't 2:18:36.200 --> 2:18:38.120 He's not welcome here. He's in Bosnia. Bonni was like, 2:18:38.440 --> 2:18:41.280 he's not fucking here. He was in Serbia. 2:18:41.920 --> 2:18:44.320 He kept trying to lie to He tried to like 2:18:44.680 --> 2:18:47.120 like make people think he was somewhere else, but he 2:18:47.240 --> 2:18:50.480 just couldn't stop posting. And if you ever post anything 2:18:50.560 --> 2:18:54.720 outside or really even inside you you can be found. 2:18:54.840 --> 2:18:57.440 So like, he couldn't stop posting, and every single time 2:18:57.440 --> 2:19:01.480 he'd be like, haha, the CIA asked, it's a belly cat. 2:19:01.600 --> 2:19:04.360 Think I'm here when in fact I'm actually over there, 2:19:04.440 --> 2:19:06.160 and you're like, no, you're actually right here. It's really 2:19:06.200 --> 2:19:08.520 easy to find out where you are. You posted yourself 2:19:08.560 --> 2:19:11.240 standing next to this tree. There's only one type of 2:19:11.320 --> 2:19:13.240 this tree in this area. It's obvious you're right here, 2:19:13.760 --> 2:19:14.480 and it's like you can. 2:19:14.600 --> 2:19:16.879 Post all you like. If you have terminal posting disease, 2:19:16.920 --> 2:19:19.400 you can keep posting, which is like, don't post photographs 2:19:19.440 --> 2:19:20.880 of yourself in a place. 2:19:21.360 --> 2:19:24.000 He can't He can't stop, He can't stop, won't stop. 2:19:24.240 --> 2:19:26.320 My favorite old Rundo lore is that he had this 2:19:26.440 --> 2:19:29.640 YouTube series called Tea Time with Robert Rundo that I 2:19:30.200 --> 2:19:33.360 still think about about once a week, where he would 2:19:33.400 --> 2:19:36.000 give his Nazi followers advice on how to flee the 2:19:36.080 --> 2:19:39.640 country if they have a felony while sitting at like 2:19:39.760 --> 2:19:43.280 a European cafe filming on his iPhone. It's the most 2:19:43.360 --> 2:19:47.120 it's the funniest thing I've ever seen in the sane world. 2:19:47.240 --> 2:19:50.240 Evidence like that would make a judge say, mmm, I 2:19:50.280 --> 2:19:51.680 don't think we should let you back. 2:19:51.600 --> 2:19:56.440 Out, considering you made instructions. 2:19:58.000 --> 2:20:02.039 So finally, in March of twenty twenty three, he's freshly reindicted. 2:20:02.080 --> 2:20:04.080 In January twenty twenty three. March of twenty twenty three, 2:20:04.800 --> 2:20:07.880 the Romanian police are like, we fucking found him, got him. 2:20:08.040 --> 2:20:10.400 He's here in Romania. So he's arrested in Romania and 2:20:10.480 --> 2:20:12.120 it takes a few months to sort out all the 2:20:12.160 --> 2:20:14.160 paperwork and get him extra dated back to the US 2:20:14.480 --> 2:20:18.360 in August of twenty twenty three. You know what won't 2:20:18.480 --> 2:20:21.640 get you indicted on federal felony charges that result in 2:20:21.720 --> 2:20:23.680 you being extradited from a Romanian prison. 2:20:24.560 --> 2:20:26.959 Listening to these ads as long as we declare them 2:20:27.040 --> 2:20:30.960 as My FTC training today taught me how to do so. Yes, 2:20:31.000 --> 2:20:33.080 these are all paid advertisements. We're not allowed to call 2:20:33.120 --> 2:20:36.800 them promoted content to we have to call them ads. 2:20:37.160 --> 2:20:39.039 These are advertised I believe. 2:20:38.840 --> 2:20:40.960 That was part of my training today. So to make 2:20:41.000 --> 2:20:46.000 sure I don't go to prison enjoy these paid advertisements. 2:20:57.280 --> 2:21:00.959 Well, I hope you enjoyed those paid advertiste ads. 2:21:01.959 --> 2:21:02.520 This is weird. 2:21:02.560 --> 2:21:05.039 We're only airing them because they're paying us money. These 2:21:05.320 --> 2:21:09.040 are not our sincere belief. Way, we can't say that either. 2:21:09.200 --> 2:21:11.160 There's really no way to win. There's no way to 2:21:11.240 --> 2:21:14.680 win here anyway. I'm going to the war against the 2:21:14.800 --> 2:21:18.920 ftc so so true. So that more or less gets 2:21:19.000 --> 2:21:22.280 us up to the current controversy. So we get Rundo 2:21:22.400 --> 2:21:25.240 back August twenty twenty three, and then February twenty twenty four, 2:21:25.640 --> 2:21:29.560 about ten days ago, Judge Karney dismisses the case again. 2:21:30.959 --> 2:21:33.760 So back in twenty nineteen, Karney said, no, there's no 2:21:33.879 --> 2:21:36.279 crime here. This is just protected for some m activities. 2:21:36.480 --> 2:21:38.760 You can't use the Riot Act. That's unconstitutional, right, And 2:21:38.840 --> 2:21:42.720 he dismisses the case, and the Ninth Circus says, no, no, 2:21:42.840 --> 2:21:44.800 I don't think so that's not how we're reading this. 2:21:44.959 --> 2:21:47.240 You got to take the case back, so it gets 2:21:47.320 --> 2:21:50.400 remanded back to the same judge. It goes back to 2:21:50.480 --> 2:21:53.240 Judge Karney, but of course Rundo's missing now it takes 2:21:53.280 --> 2:21:54.680 a while to get him back. And so he finally 2:21:54.680 --> 2:21:57.000 gets his defendant back from his Nazi laer in Eastern Europe, 2:21:57.280 --> 2:21:59.600 he has to come up with a new reason why 2:21:59.800 --> 2:22:02.280 not street fighting gang shouldn't be charged with a crime. 2:22:02.760 --> 2:22:04.680 Okay, So like it's obvious, he just doesn't want to 2:22:04.680 --> 2:22:06.959 fucking try this case. So he has to come up 2:22:07.000 --> 2:22:10.760 with a new reason. And honestly, I think no shade 2:22:10.760 --> 2:22:13.199 to the federal public defender, right, Rendo has a public defender. 2:22:13.560 --> 2:22:16.640 It is their job to throw everything at the wall 2:22:16.680 --> 2:22:19.320 and see what sticks. They're providing zealous defense to their clients. 2:22:19.360 --> 2:22:22.080 So they write up what I would say, in my 2:22:22.240 --> 2:22:26.119 personal opinion, was an absolute dogshit motion, and I think 2:22:26.160 --> 2:22:28.040 maybe they knew that too. I don't know, they're just 2:22:28.080 --> 2:22:30.520 doing their jobs. I think Judge Carney would have agreed 2:22:30.560 --> 2:22:33.200 with whatever they put on paper. He gets this motion 2:22:33.280 --> 2:22:36.080 and he's like, yes, for sure, dismissed again. So true, 2:22:36.680 --> 2:22:39.600 and this time it's selective prosecution that if the government 2:22:39.640 --> 2:22:41.920 wants to charge Ram with rioting, they would have had 2:22:41.959 --> 2:22:44.080 to charge Antifa too, because otherwise it's not fair. 2:22:44.360 --> 2:22:46.440 What should they do all the fucking time? 2:22:48.680 --> 2:22:50.200 It's just not fair? 2:22:50.520 --> 2:22:55.080 I mean this case does actually like showcase like selective prosecution, 2:22:55.240 --> 2:22:58.119 the fact that you wire super willing to drop charges 2:22:58.120 --> 2:23:00.840 against a white supremacists but will send and like quote 2:23:00.879 --> 2:23:05.440 unquote Antifa gay gay teenagers to prison for going to 2:23:05.520 --> 2:23:10.120 a BLM protest, Like yeah, that actually does show exactly 2:23:10.240 --> 2:23:13.320 how these cases are very selectively prosecuted. 2:23:13.680 --> 2:23:15.480 Right, Like these guys are playing on easy mode, and 2:23:15.520 --> 2:23:18.039 as soon as they draw the wrong card, it's like, well, 2:23:18.080 --> 2:23:20.960 this deck is stcked, this deck is stacked right, And 2:23:21.040 --> 2:23:23.480 so now I'm again we talked about this before a garrison. 2:23:23.600 --> 2:23:25.640 I'm not a lawyer, we know this, but I am 2:23:25.720 --> 2:23:28.680 an enthusiastic consumer of the law, and I did read 2:23:28.720 --> 2:23:33.840 a bunch of law review articles today. Okay, select prosecution 2:23:34.600 --> 2:23:37.480 sounds like the kind of thing that could work, right, Like, oh, 2:23:37.600 --> 2:23:41.960 it's not constitutional to selectively prosecute based on maybia a 2:23:41.959 --> 2:23:44.760 protected characteristic right, like if you're only prosecuting black people 2:23:44.800 --> 2:23:47.080 for a crime, Like, of course that's wrong. But here's 2:23:47.120 --> 2:23:51.800 the thing. It doesn't work. It never works. This is 2:23:51.879 --> 2:23:54.440 not an argument that is effective. I want to say, 2:23:54.480 --> 2:23:57.200 it never works. It is generally not an effective argument. 2:23:57.600 --> 2:24:00.840 Even when a layperson could look at and say, oh, yeah, 2:24:00.879 --> 2:24:03.240 that is kind of fucked up. It just doesn't work. 2:24:03.320 --> 2:24:05.640 You can't just walk into court and say, you know, well, 2:24:05.680 --> 2:24:08.119 your honor, I was speeding, but so was everybody else 2:24:08.160 --> 2:24:10.600 on the interstate. It's unconstitutional to give me a ticket 2:24:10.680 --> 2:24:12.520 unless everyone gets a ticket, right that. 2:24:13.000 --> 2:24:15.680 It's not how it works. They're picking on me. 2:24:15.879 --> 2:24:19.520 It's yeah, you can't just say, you know, other people 2:24:19.600 --> 2:24:21.720 did what I did, but I'm the only one standing here, 2:24:21.800 --> 2:24:22.400 so it's not fair. 2:24:23.040 --> 2:24:26.040 You have to there's an actual structure to this. Oh 2:24:26.160 --> 2:24:29.039 Jay got away with it. That means I should too, right. 2:24:29.280 --> 2:24:32.160 Right, We're not catching every murderer, so like I should 2:24:32.160 --> 2:24:35.520 get a freebee. Yeah, so you have to show not 2:24:35.640 --> 2:24:39.240 only that there was a particular other individual who engaged 2:24:39.280 --> 2:24:42.680 in the same conduct who was not charged, but also 2:24:42.840 --> 2:24:47.320 that quote a federal prosecutorial policy had a discriminatory effect, 2:24:47.800 --> 2:24:51.520 and it was motivated by a discriminatory purpose. So in 2:24:51.600 --> 2:24:54.080 the speeding ticket analogy, right, you'd have to say, you know, 2:24:54.200 --> 2:24:56.600 I was doing eighty in the school zone, but so 2:24:56.800 --> 2:24:59.760 were these three other particular women like John Jane, and 2:25:00.959 --> 2:25:03.480 we're all doing it too, and we all got pulled over. 2:25:04.200 --> 2:25:06.440 But the cop only gave me a ticket because he 2:25:06.560 --> 2:25:08.959 hates men or something, right Like. 2:25:09.959 --> 2:25:13.880 You would have to show that based miss andres cop right. 2:25:14.360 --> 2:25:15.800 So you'd have to show that other people did the 2:25:15.879 --> 2:25:18.400 exact same thing you did, and it was possible for 2:25:18.480 --> 2:25:21.080 them to have gotten in trouble too, Yeah, but they 2:25:21.160 --> 2:25:25.240 didn't because of a particular form of discrimination. So in 2:25:25.360 --> 2:25:27.800 order to make a valid claim of selective prosecution, Rondo's 2:25:27.879 --> 2:25:31.480 lawyers would have to say, Look, here's Joe Antifa, a 2:25:31.560 --> 2:25:34.760 real guy who exists, and here is a materially similar 2:25:34.840 --> 2:25:38.120 set of circumstances in which Joe Antifa ran an organized 2:25:38.160 --> 2:25:40.840 group that got into fights on purpose, provoked confrontations, chase 2:25:40.840 --> 2:25:42.680 people to their cars, beat women in the streets, and 2:25:42.680 --> 2:25:44.760 then use that footage to recruit people to his gang. 2:25:44.959 --> 2:25:48.480 Right Like, here's Joe Antifa bragging online about targeting members 2:25:48.520 --> 2:25:50.760 of a particular minority group for brutal gang assaults at 2:25:50.760 --> 2:25:54.080 political rallies. Here's his group actively planning and organizing to 2:25:54.160 --> 2:25:56.480 travel to different cities and other states across the country 2:25:56.520 --> 2:25:59.760 with the explicit and stated goal of provoking and attacking people. 2:26:00.080 --> 2:26:03.440 You can't just say, well, Antifa didn't get charged. You 2:26:03.600 --> 2:26:07.720 have to present an actual person who did what you did, 2:26:09.000 --> 2:26:10.960 not just some other guy who did something you don't 2:26:11.120 --> 2:26:13.840 like or somebody else who maybe did kind of a crime. 2:26:14.000 --> 2:26:14.959 You have to say, this is a. 2:26:15.000 --> 2:26:18.600 Specific person and he did what I did in a 2:26:18.720 --> 2:26:22.560 materially similar way to the same degree that I did it, 2:26:22.840 --> 2:26:24.840 and with just as much evidence to support that. 2:26:25.680 --> 2:26:27.800 Yeah, And in the Ram case, there's so. 2:26:27.959 --> 2:26:32.520 Much evidence because they couldn't stop fucking posting, So they 2:26:32.600 --> 2:26:36.360 can't produce evidence that Antifa, to whatever degree that's a 2:26:36.440 --> 2:26:40.440 meaningful term here, engaged in similar behavior to what the 2:26:40.520 --> 2:26:42.760 evidence shows Ram did. Right, It's not just other people 2:26:42.800 --> 2:26:46.240 were fighting, And in this case that's kind of preposterous 2:26:46.280 --> 2:26:49.480 because the evidence does show that they specifically bragged, Like 2:26:49.560 --> 2:26:52.840 there's a text that was produced from Ben Daaley bragging 2:26:52.879 --> 2:26:55.200 about how they were first through the barricades at Berkeley. 2:26:55.760 --> 2:26:58.640 So you're acknowledging that you know there was this big 2:26:58.760 --> 2:27:02.480 riot and that you hearted it. Sure other people were 2:27:02.520 --> 2:27:07.200 fighting in the riot that you started on purpose, So 2:27:07.320 --> 2:27:10.480 no one else can be similarly situated to you, because 2:27:10.520 --> 2:27:13.400 even if they were fighting you started it, there has 2:27:13.480 --> 2:27:17.880 to be a real, actual other person who is similarly situated. 2:27:17.959 --> 2:27:20.440 That's an actual legal term that encompasses a sort of 2:27:20.560 --> 2:27:23.840 set of criteria. Is there a similar amount of evidence 2:27:23.879 --> 2:27:26.720 against this other person? Would it take a similar amount 2:27:26.760 --> 2:27:29.800 of state resources to investigate, arrest, and convict this person. 2:27:31.280 --> 2:27:35.080 We just don't have an organized militant street gang of 2:27:35.120 --> 2:27:38.119 Antifa that sold branded apparel and bragged about crimes online. 2:27:38.160 --> 2:27:41.840 There is no similarly situated, uncharged actor on the other 2:27:41.959 --> 2:27:47.080 side of this. That person doesn't exist. But it's even 2:27:47.280 --> 2:27:50.200 more than that. Even if we did have Joe Antifa, 2:27:50.280 --> 2:27:52.560 the gang leader who's bragging online about doing this kind 2:27:52.560 --> 2:27:57.039 of stuff, even if he existed, Even then, even then 2:27:57.240 --> 2:28:00.040 there is what's called prosecutorial discretion. There may be the 2:28:00.120 --> 2:28:02.760 reasons that we just aren't entitled to know about as 2:28:02.800 --> 2:28:05.000 to why a prosecutor made the decisions they did about 2:28:05.000 --> 2:28:08.640 who gets charged. For a selective prosecution argument to work, 2:28:08.720 --> 2:28:10.400 you have to show that this decision was made for 2:28:10.480 --> 2:28:14.879 a discriminatory purpose, and that's really hard to do because 2:28:14.920 --> 2:28:17.480 they're not going to tell you that right. You know, 2:28:17.520 --> 2:28:20.560 in an ideal world, selective prosecution would be an argument raised. 2:28:21.160 --> 2:28:23.800 You know about racial bias, because we do know that 2:28:23.920 --> 2:28:27.960 there is racial bias, and who is investigated arrested, charged, 2:28:28.000 --> 2:28:30.320 and convicted for crimes, like at every step along the way, 2:28:30.720 --> 2:28:33.000 there's a thumb on the scale against people of color. 2:28:33.560 --> 2:28:36.760 And even then, even when it is so obvious, even 2:28:36.800 --> 2:28:38.440 when you have, you know, a prosecutor who is a 2:28:38.520 --> 2:28:42.360 member of the fucking clan, even then these arguments don't 2:28:42.480 --> 2:28:43.320 tend to work. 2:28:44.800 --> 2:28:46.800 This should not have worked. 2:28:48.040 --> 2:28:51.760 But Judge Carney clearly just doesn't want this case prosecuted, right. 2:28:51.800 --> 2:28:53.560 I think it's it's very obvious that he just like 2:28:54.879 --> 2:28:57.000 thinks Rob Rundo is a nice boy who shouldn't have 2:28:57.040 --> 2:29:00.840 to go to jail for this is also, I think, 2:29:01.360 --> 2:29:07.080 notably about to retire. He hits he hits the minimum 2:29:07.160 --> 2:29:10.160 retirement age in May, and he is going to retire 2:29:10.400 --> 2:29:13.920 the day that he can. I think Megan Cuniff, who 2:29:14.040 --> 2:29:17.000 has a great blog, Legal Affairs, she's been covering this case. 2:29:17.959 --> 2:29:20.360 She noted in a tweet a few weeks ago that 2:29:21.200 --> 2:29:23.920 she knows that he intends to retire because he in 2:29:24.040 --> 2:29:26.760 rescheduling some hearings, said that that was the only day 2:29:26.800 --> 2:29:28.960 he could go to the retirement benefits class that he 2:29:29.040 --> 2:29:30.720 needs to go to to make sure he can retire 2:29:31.080 --> 2:29:33.199 the day he's eligible in May, so he just doesn't 2:29:33.760 --> 2:29:35.280 he just doesn't want to deal with this. Right that 2:29:35.400 --> 2:29:38.000 this was scheduled to go to trial in March and 2:29:38.080 --> 2:29:40.960 he's retiring in May. He just doesn't want to do it. 2:29:42.560 --> 2:29:48.280 What's the even the point anymore? What's even what? I 2:29:48.440 --> 2:29:51.560 just it's like, why are they even trying here? Like 2:29:51.680 --> 2:29:54.120 it just just just like kick the can down to 2:29:54.200 --> 2:29:56.720 someone else if you don't want to like deal with this. 2:29:56.879 --> 2:29:59.440 I don't know, it's turning this whole like I don't know. 2:30:00.000 --> 2:30:01.520 I've read other things from this judge how he's like 2:30:01.920 --> 2:30:04.359 he's like very much into like this big like Antifa 2:30:04.440 --> 2:30:06.039 conspiracy theory, and. 2:30:06.120 --> 2:30:08.200 He's a little bit racist, like there was an issue 2:30:08.240 --> 2:30:10.760 he's oh, I'm shocked. He was chief Judge of the 2:30:10.840 --> 2:30:12.959 Circuit briefly, but he had to step down. So he's 2:30:12.959 --> 2:30:16.400 still a judge in the Central District of California, but 2:30:16.440 --> 2:30:18.200 he's not the chief judge anymore because he made a 2:30:18.320 --> 2:30:22.240 racist comment to the Clerk of court. So he's I mean, 2:30:22.280 --> 2:30:23.960 I think there's some stuff going on with Judge Carney. 2:30:24.800 --> 2:30:26.640 So I think he knows when he made this ruling 2:30:26.720 --> 2:30:28.320 that like the Ninth Circuit's going to send it back. 2:30:28.360 --> 2:30:30.080 But that's not gonna be his problem anymore because he's 2:30:30.120 --> 2:30:32.960 out of here in May. So you heard this like 2:30:33.160 --> 2:30:36.520 absolute dog shit argument, and he was like, so true, King, 2:30:36.640 --> 2:30:39.720 this is not fair. You are free to go go ahead, 2:30:40.760 --> 2:30:43.320 and he let him out same day, Like he heard 2:30:43.360 --> 2:30:47.360 this argument. He was like, absolutely, that's the one, go 2:30:47.560 --> 2:30:50.360 on home, and he let him out that day. There 2:30:50.400 --> 2:30:53.040 was attorney made a motion for an emergency stay, saying like, okay, well, 2:30:53.200 --> 2:30:55.720 let's just let's not get ahead of ourselves. Why don't 2:30:55.720 --> 2:30:57.320 we just hang on to him till we can talk 2:30:57.360 --> 2:30:59.080 to the Ninth Circuit about this, because I don't know, 2:30:59.600 --> 2:31:02.040 and that's it's pretty normal, that would be normal for 2:31:02.120 --> 2:31:05.040 the judge to say, let's give it a day. I mean, 2:31:05.160 --> 2:31:06.720 I want him release, but we'll give it a day. 2:31:06.720 --> 2:31:08.600 We'll let you get your paperwork in order. No, he 2:31:08.680 --> 2:31:10.560 just let him out, just let him out right that day, 2:31:11.680 --> 2:31:15.760 and considering his history of fleeing the country, not the 2:31:15.800 --> 2:31:16.560 call I would have made. 2:31:17.120 --> 2:31:18.240 It is quite the choice. 2:31:20.040 --> 2:31:22.040 So the very next day, the Ninth Circuit was like, 2:31:22.240 --> 2:31:24.640 hold on, let's get him back in custody while we 2:31:24.720 --> 2:31:28.280 think about this. And it makes no sense for CARNEI 2:31:28.360 --> 2:31:30.960 to deny the emergency state, that would be really normal 2:31:31.720 --> 2:31:34.120 to stay the decision until we have a chance to 2:31:34.160 --> 2:31:36.280 sort of think this through. Right, even if he truly 2:31:36.360 --> 2:31:38.800 believed with his whole heart that there's no way that 2:31:38.879 --> 2:31:40.680 this would ever get kicked back by the Ninth Circuit, 2:31:40.760 --> 2:31:42.560 that the case would stay dismissed and Rundo would be 2:31:42.600 --> 2:31:45.200 free to go, it would not be unusual to say, 2:31:45.760 --> 2:31:48.120 you know, well, this has been pretty contentious. The defendant 2:31:48.160 --> 2:31:51.280 has fled the country multiple times, so let's just hang 2:31:51.320 --> 2:31:53.480 on to him for twenty four forty eight hours while 2:31:53.520 --> 2:31:55.600 we go through the motions of getting that emergency hearing. 2:31:55.680 --> 2:31:58.680 But that's not what happened, because Robert Roundo is the 2:31:58.920 --> 2:32:02.880 definition of a flight risk. Yes he is. 2:32:02.959 --> 2:32:08.320 Like he's the platonic ideal form of a flight risk. 2:32:08.959 --> 2:32:10.760 I've sat through a lot of bond hearings and I 2:32:10.879 --> 2:32:13.440 know we are definitely not all using the same dictionary 2:32:13.480 --> 2:32:15.240 here when it comes to what is a flight risk. 2:32:15.600 --> 2:32:18.360 But you really can't find a guy who has done 2:32:18.440 --> 2:32:21.080 more to demonstrate than he absolutely can and will flee 2:32:21.120 --> 2:32:24.440 the country to avoid going back to court. He does 2:32:24.560 --> 2:32:27.039 not want to go to court. So back in twenty eighteen, 2:32:27.320 --> 2:32:31.160 when those two prosecutions were initially filed, right, the Virginia 2:32:31.240 --> 2:32:34.640 case was filed first, So when Ben Day was arrested, 2:32:35.160 --> 2:32:38.040 the charges hadn't actually been filed yet against rob Rundo. 2:32:38.800 --> 2:32:40.920 But I guess when they came to get Ben on 2:32:41.000 --> 2:32:44.000 October second, so eighteen days before the charges were filed 2:32:44.000 --> 2:32:46.680 against rob Rundo himself, they came to get Ben in 2:32:46.840 --> 2:32:49.760 La and he's like, m time to get out of dodge, right, 2:32:50.200 --> 2:32:51.520 So I think that was the moment he was like 2:32:51.920 --> 2:32:55.400 I gotta go. You know, he knew they might be 2:32:55.480 --> 2:33:00.800 coming for him next. So first he tries going to Ukraine, 2:33:00.840 --> 2:33:02.800 which is a great place for a militant right wing 2:33:02.920 --> 2:33:05.720 extremists to go hang out with friends, right, And unfortunately 2:33:05.800 --> 2:33:09.400 for him, his flight had a layover in London. I 2:33:09.480 --> 2:33:11.400 don't know if it like didn't occur to him that 2:33:11.720 --> 2:33:15.240 maybe when they look at your passport, like maybe maybe 2:33:15.280 --> 2:33:17.520 the US government like anticipated that you would do this. 2:33:18.320 --> 2:33:20.160 But so he throw looks at us at his passport, 2:33:20.240 --> 2:33:22.720 it was like mm, the US government says, do not 2:33:22.800 --> 2:33:24.960 pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars, do not 2:33:25.040 --> 2:33:28.120 proceed to Nazi asylum, and they turn him back. Now, 2:33:28.200 --> 2:33:30.800 mind you, he's not arrested yet, right, they just won't 2:33:30.840 --> 2:33:31.800 let him go to Ukraine. 2:33:32.120 --> 2:33:36.039 Interesting, so he he doesn't. He doesn't get to London though. 2:33:37.600 --> 2:33:40.120 I think he gets to London and they were like, no, 2:33:40.320 --> 2:33:42.440 you can't, you can't go. I don't know how he 2:33:42.520 --> 2:33:43.039 got that far. 2:33:43.480 --> 2:33:46.760 Yeah, yeah, that is that is intriguing. So back in 2:33:46.800 --> 2:33:51.720 California he walked to Mexico. Yeah, which is which is 2:33:51.840 --> 2:33:54.600 part of his tea tie with Robert Rundo advice. 2:33:55.440 --> 2:33:57.680 Right, So like he literally went on foot over the 2:33:57.800 --> 2:34:00.320 US Mexico border to avoid passport control and then he 2:34:00.360 --> 2:34:03.840 travel over land through Mexico into l Salvador, YEP, where 2:34:03.959 --> 2:34:06.600 he presumably intended to try getting on a plane. Again. 2:34:06.920 --> 2:34:09.000 You need you need to get far enough south so 2:34:09.080 --> 2:34:12.280 that when you fly you don't cross over American airspace. 2:34:12.879 --> 2:34:15.520 Other people in ram have tried this and have not 2:34:15.680 --> 2:34:18.840 gone far south enough, and their plane crosses over like 2:34:18.920 --> 2:34:21.879 the tip of US airsplace around Florida, and then they 2:34:21.959 --> 2:34:25.440 get flagged so that when they land they get they 2:34:25.480 --> 2:34:26.800 get like arrested or turned back. 2:34:27.280 --> 2:34:29.879 See that's so tricky, Like I pay funny, I'm got 2:34:29.879 --> 2:34:32.560 a plane ticket recently for vacation. I'm not fleeing the 2:34:32.600 --> 2:34:33.360 country or anything. 2:34:33.600 --> 2:34:34.760 Molly's flying everyone. 2:34:35.320 --> 2:34:38.240 I actually don't even have a passport, but when you 2:34:38.280 --> 2:34:40.200 buy a plane ticket, they do not provide for you 2:34:40.560 --> 2:34:43.680 a sort of schematic of the flight path. So I 2:34:43.720 --> 2:34:45.880 don't know how they're figuring this out. I guess they're not. 2:34:46.000 --> 2:34:48.760 If it's not a Rondo. I think typically tries to 2:34:48.800 --> 2:34:50.440 get far enough south that he just gets a direct 2:34:50.480 --> 2:34:52.720 flight to somewhere. 2:34:52.360 --> 2:34:53.880 In like the Middle East or eastern Europe. 2:34:54.440 --> 2:34:56.320 Well, I don't know if it would have worked, because 2:34:56.400 --> 2:34:58.840 when he got to l Salvador, the plane that he 2:34:58.959 --> 2:35:02.280 got on was not headed to Ukraine. It was headed 2:35:02.320 --> 2:35:06.400 back to lax in the company of some FBI agents hope. 2:35:07.240 --> 2:35:10.000 So they brought him back and he was formally arrested 2:35:10.440 --> 2:35:13.240 in the La airport when they brought him back. Very 2:35:13.320 --> 2:35:15.800 funny because in the weeks that he had spent trying 2:35:15.879 --> 2:35:19.000 to get away, the indictment against him had come back 2:35:19.080 --> 2:35:33.560 and he was also being charged. So after Judge Carney 2:35:33.640 --> 2:35:36.160 dropped the charges the first time back in twenty nineteen, 2:35:36.360 --> 2:35:38.760 Rondo got his passport back and immediately left the country again, 2:35:38.840 --> 2:35:41.920 traveling to Europe visiting other fascist fight clubs, and so 2:35:42.160 --> 2:35:44.240 you know, in this time period, the US Attorney is 2:35:44.320 --> 2:35:47.200 appealing the dismissal of the charges, like they they want 2:35:47.280 --> 2:35:49.720 to bring this case. They're, you know, they're waiting for 2:35:49.760 --> 2:35:52.920 the Ninth Circuit to hear them, but they're watching him 2:35:53.879 --> 2:35:57.000 cavorting around Eastern Europe and they're like they're filing motions saying, like, 2:35:58.000 --> 2:35:59.840 we really got to get him back, Like he's at 2:35:59.840 --> 2:36:01.440 an Nazi rally in Hungary. 2:36:02.520 --> 2:36:03.800 He's got a podcast. 2:36:03.879 --> 2:36:05.840 He's got a podcast where he's telling people how to 2:36:05.959 --> 2:36:10.040 evade capture by getting foreign passports, Like, we got to 2:36:10.080 --> 2:36:10.640 get him back. 2:36:12.040 --> 2:36:12.959 And so when the charges were. 2:36:12.879 --> 2:36:15.040 Finally reinstated by the Ninth Circuit in twenty twenty one, 2:36:15.160 --> 2:36:17.600 he'd been formally expelled from Serbia, where he'd been living, 2:36:17.680 --> 2:36:20.720 and he was eventually arrested in and extradited from Romania. 2:36:21.240 --> 2:36:23.760 And then when Judge Corney dismissed the charges again two 2:36:23.760 --> 2:36:26.760 weeks ago, and the Ninth Circuit was like, we gotta 2:36:26.760 --> 2:36:28.280 get him back. Do you know where they found him? 2:36:28.720 --> 2:36:32.480 The Mexican border? Oh curious, who could have predicted? 2:36:32.959 --> 2:36:33.119 Huh? 2:36:33.560 --> 2:36:36.920 So, like he really loves leading the country. Time is 2:36:37.000 --> 2:36:41.800 a flat circle, right, So Karnie lets him out he 2:36:41.920 --> 2:36:44.360 tries to leave the country again. Immediately the Ninth Circuit says, 2:36:44.400 --> 2:36:47.760 hold on, let's bring him back. And because this system 2:36:48.080 --> 2:36:50.720 works in just the most like insane imaginable ways, Like 2:36:50.760 --> 2:36:54.039 I guess when they wrote how this was gonna work, 2:36:54.040 --> 2:36:55.920 they just assumed everyone would act in good faith and 2:36:55.959 --> 2:36:59.160 they didn't put anything in for when that's not what happens. 2:36:59.600 --> 2:37:01.640 You know, I'm pretty sure that's in the Constitution. You 2:37:01.720 --> 2:37:05.920 have to assume good faith intentions. I believe the sixty 2:37:06.040 --> 2:37:08.000 ninth Amendment. You have to assume good faith. 2:37:08.240 --> 2:37:10.160 Everyone's going to be normal about this. We don't need 2:37:10.200 --> 2:37:12.280 to build in any contingencies here. So every time the 2:37:12.360 --> 2:37:17.080 Ninth Circuit is like, ooh, Judge Carney, that's nuts, they 2:37:17.240 --> 2:37:19.680 just have to send it back to him. They it 2:37:19.720 --> 2:37:21.800 doesn't get sent to a different judge. It's just they 2:37:21.879 --> 2:37:23.400 just keep sending it back to the guy who is 2:37:23.440 --> 2:37:27.160 bound and determined to ruin this right. So it gets 2:37:27.200 --> 2:37:29.360 sent back to Judge Carney. This case is still in 2:37:29.480 --> 2:37:32.240 front of Judge Carney. So the Ninth Circuit they put 2:37:32.320 --> 2:37:34.720 him back in and Judge Corney's like, I'm gonna le 2:37:34.760 --> 2:37:36.640 him back out, and the Ninth Circuit's like, no, you 2:37:36.800 --> 2:37:40.600 really really can't do that. You really can't do that. 2:37:41.080 --> 2:37:44.000 And he's being kind of a pissy little baby about this, right, 2:37:44.200 --> 2:37:47.760 Like the Ninth Circuit issues an order saying, like, no 2:37:47.959 --> 2:37:51.520 one can let him out but us. If he gets 2:37:51.600 --> 2:37:53.920 let out, it will because we said so no one 2:37:53.959 --> 2:37:55.960 can let him out. You can't do it. The Ninth 2:37:56.000 --> 2:37:58.240 Circuit said, so we're up here on top. 2:37:59.080 --> 2:38:02.520 This is fash as, this is tyranny, is fascis of, 2:38:02.600 --> 2:38:05.560 but the but the bad kind, the kind I don't 2:38:05.760 --> 2:38:06.840 like Robert Rundo. 2:38:07.440 --> 2:38:09.080 So Carney's on the bench and he's like, well I 2:38:09.200 --> 2:38:12.040 really want to though, and so he issues an order 2:38:12.160 --> 2:38:16.040 saying like he's released, but I'm going to stay my 2:38:16.120 --> 2:38:17.520 own order. I mean, like you know, I'm gonna enter 2:38:17.600 --> 2:38:19.640 this order saying he's released, but like it won't go 2:38:19.680 --> 2:38:21.800 into effect because technically I'm not allowed. 2:38:22.200 --> 2:38:24.520 That's such a such a door key of like pissed 2:38:24.560 --> 2:38:26.840 baby tantramoved from a judge. 2:38:26.879 --> 2:38:31.160 Like you're being a real baby, Cormac. And he says, quote, 2:38:31.280 --> 2:38:33.200 I would like to be in a position to release 2:38:33.280 --> 2:38:35.040 him right now and let him walk out the door. 2:38:35.160 --> 2:38:38.959 Well you can't, you can't. So it gets like stupid 2:38:39.040 --> 2:38:41.680 messy here, right, So the ninth Circuit put him back 2:38:41.720 --> 2:38:44.240 in and it comes back to Carney, and Carney's like, well, 2:38:44.840 --> 2:38:47.800 this arrest wasn't even legal. I should let him out 2:38:47.840 --> 2:38:49.920 because this you can't even you couldn't put him back in. 2:38:50.360 --> 2:38:54.200 You can't arrest someone without their being cause for a crime. 2:38:55.040 --> 2:38:59.600 Well, it is a little bit messy here, right. So 2:39:00.840 --> 2:39:05.960 Carney argues that Roundo's rearrest wasn't legal because he dismissed 2:39:06.000 --> 2:39:09.680 the case. So technically, when Rundo was arrested again, there 2:39:10.000 --> 2:39:12.760 was no charge against him. There is currently because the 2:39:13.120 --> 2:39:16.240 indictment was dismissed. You know, the prosecutor's appealing that that dismissal. 2:39:16.640 --> 2:39:18.520 Maybe it'll get reinstated like it did last time. But 2:39:18.600 --> 2:39:22.120 like right now, he is not charged with the crimes, 2:39:22.160 --> 2:39:23.000 which is which is. 2:39:23.080 --> 2:39:25.440 Ridiculous because there's so many other things you could charge 2:39:25.480 --> 2:39:27.760 him with, right just like find a different crime. Like 2:39:27.840 --> 2:39:29.160 there's like between all. 2:39:29.080 --> 2:39:31.280 Of his between all of his passport stuff, between all 2:39:31.320 --> 2:39:34.760 of his crossing the border, like there's there's so much 2:39:34.840 --> 2:39:38.320 other there's so many other things that you could you 2:39:38.360 --> 2:39:39.400 could decide to charge him with. 2:39:39.560 --> 2:39:42.400 Surely some FBI agent has been sort of keeping tabs 2:39:42.440 --> 2:39:44.360 on his activities and they could come up with something, 2:39:44.400 --> 2:39:47.520 but as it stands, when he was re arrested, there 2:39:47.800 --> 2:39:51.120 was no charge, right, Yeah, So the Ninth Circuit does 2:39:51.280 --> 2:39:53.760 have the authority to stay the release order. So Carney 2:39:53.879 --> 2:39:57.280 issued a release order saying let him out of jail, right, 2:39:57.400 --> 2:40:01.000 And so the prosecutor was like, we need an emergency 2:40:01.080 --> 2:40:04.480 hearing in front of the Ninth Circuit on that release order. 2:40:04.640 --> 2:40:06.640 So Carney issues the release order. The prosecutor goes to 2:40:06.680 --> 2:40:09.200 the Ninth Circuit and say, we need you to push 2:40:09.280 --> 2:40:13.000 the pause button on the implementation of this order. That's 2:40:13.080 --> 2:40:16.600 really normal. That should have been what happened. But because 2:40:16.760 --> 2:40:20.120 he was released immediately, you know, before they had a 2:40:20.240 --> 2:40:24.680 chance to get heard by the Ninth Circuit, Carney's argument, 2:40:24.720 --> 2:40:27.920 which I may maybe true here, right, is that by 2:40:27.959 --> 2:40:31.600 the time the Ninth Circuit heard the motion to stay 2:40:31.879 --> 2:40:35.680 the release order, it was moot. They can't hear argument 2:40:35.760 --> 2:40:39.320 on a motion that doesn't mean anything. You can't stay 2:40:39.360 --> 2:40:42.680 an order that's already been implemented. So once the release 2:40:42.800 --> 2:40:45.080 order was carried out and Rondo was no longer physically 2:40:45.200 --> 2:40:48.040 in custody, there was no order to stay so the 2:40:48.120 --> 2:40:51.800 Ninth Circuit had nothing to rule on, so they they 2:40:51.959 --> 2:40:55.960 rearrested him, saying like, we're staying the release order, but 2:40:56.080 --> 2:40:59.200 the order of operations there is kind of key. At 2:40:59.240 --> 2:41:02.879 the next hearing, Carney said, I must tell you from 2:41:03.080 --> 2:41:05.680 the little things I've read, I'm quite concerned. I feel 2:41:05.720 --> 2:41:11.520 mister Rundo is being unconstitutionally detained, and it's messy, and 2:41:11.560 --> 2:41:12.960 I don't know what the right answer is here, right, Like, 2:41:13.040 --> 2:41:15.800 It's not unusual for someone to stay in custody pending appeal, 2:41:16.000 --> 2:41:19.600 especially if they have repeatedly attempted and succeeded at fleeing 2:41:19.640 --> 2:41:23.200 the country. And Carney's refusal to stay the release order 2:41:23.280 --> 2:41:25.280 kind of makes you wonder if he didn't create this 2:41:25.440 --> 2:41:27.320 procedural nightmare intentionally. 2:41:27.720 --> 2:41:32.080 Sure, he kind of created this legal dilemma that now 2:41:32.280 --> 2:41:36.480 puts Rundo's incarceration in actually like a point of question. 2:41:37.080 --> 2:41:39.440 Right Like, he had to know that when the Ninth 2:41:39.520 --> 2:41:43.640 Circuit did hear this motion, they would probably reverse him. 2:41:44.320 --> 2:41:47.160 He had to know that, and he absolutely knew Rondo 2:41:47.200 --> 2:41:50.520 would flee the country before that could happen. And he's 2:41:51.120 --> 2:41:54.560 not wrong that it looks a little a little questionable 2:41:54.640 --> 2:41:56.760 to issue it arrest warrant when there is no live 2:41:56.959 --> 2:42:00.000 charge or the end result that Rundo is in custody 2:42:00.600 --> 2:42:02.680 pending some kind of further ruling from the Ninth Circuit. 2:42:02.959 --> 2:42:06.680 That's not weird, that's really normal. But everything that happened 2:42:06.720 --> 2:42:11.560 in between is a mess. I don't know what the 2:42:11.600 --> 2:42:16.200 answer to that is. I mean, I mean, as nuts 2:42:16.240 --> 2:42:20.400 as Carney is behaving like, he is probably right that 2:42:20.560 --> 2:42:23.160 you can't make a ruling on a moot motion and 2:42:23.240 --> 2:42:25.120 you can't arrest someone who's not charged with a crime, 2:42:25.240 --> 2:42:27.840 like those things are true. But I don't know what 2:42:27.920 --> 2:42:29.760 the answer is here, and I think it's his fault. 2:42:30.400 --> 2:42:30.600 Yeah. 2:42:32.040 --> 2:42:35.359 So at this point, right the government is appealing Carney's 2:42:35.400 --> 2:42:37.480 dismissal of the charges, just like they did back in 2:42:37.520 --> 2:42:40.600 twenty nineteen. Remember that it took almost two years from 2:42:40.640 --> 2:42:43.520 the original dismissal to the Ninth Circuit ruling reversing and 2:42:43.560 --> 2:42:47.040 remanding the case in twenty twenty one, so this could 2:42:47.080 --> 2:42:49.160 take a while. At this point, what the government is 2:42:49.200 --> 2:42:52.040 asking for is a stay of the release order to 2:42:52.160 --> 2:42:55.200 keep him in custody while they work through this appeals process, 2:42:55.200 --> 2:42:57.760 because they are appealing the dismissal of the indictment. I 2:42:57.840 --> 2:42:59.840 don't expect a lot of movement on that this week. 2:43:00.000 --> 2:43:03.160 I think the docket shows that the appellance brief is 2:43:03.320 --> 2:43:06.280 due on the twelfth today as we're recording this as 2:43:06.320 --> 2:43:09.280 the fourth, so they'll file that brief. They may file 2:43:09.400 --> 2:43:12.000 more sort of emergency petitions for his release. I'm not 2:43:12.080 --> 2:43:15.480 sure the Ninth Circuit will do that, but is anybody's 2:43:15.520 --> 2:43:16.879 guess at this point, because it's kind of. 2:43:16.840 --> 2:43:17.440 A big mess. 2:43:17.920 --> 2:43:20.280 The only thing that is clear is that only the 2:43:20.360 --> 2:43:22.760 Ninth Circuit can let Rob Rundo out. 2:43:23.560 --> 2:43:24.800 Well what a what a? 2:43:26.840 --> 2:43:31.720 What an enticing Rundo down have the legal events of 2:43:31.840 --> 2:43:35.400 this case. Don't want to be in that position. 2:43:37.160 --> 2:43:40.360 You know, Garrison, I'm not sure that you'll ever be 2:43:40.520 --> 2:43:44.920 in this position. I I hope not, at least not 2:43:45.040 --> 2:43:48.520 in this exact one, unless you're running a secret Nazi 2:43:48.600 --> 2:43:52.240 gang that I do not know about, in which case, disavow, disavow. 2:43:52.440 --> 2:43:55.600 Okay, that's good, that's good. Yeah, sure, that's probably the 2:43:55.680 --> 2:44:02.280 right move. But so it'll take some time. I don't know. Yeah, 2:44:02.320 --> 2:44:03.760 I don't know what else there is to say. 2:44:06.160 --> 2:44:08.720 This is like sort of inciting a lot of active 2:44:08.760 --> 2:44:10.600 club activity. You were saying earlier that the you know 2:44:10.680 --> 2:44:13.039 ram doesn't exist anymore. It's morphed into these active clubs. 2:44:13.080 --> 2:44:15.520 There's these cells all over the country and they are 2:44:15.800 --> 2:44:17.760 fired up about this. So I think this has the 2:44:17.879 --> 2:44:23.400 potential to incite more political violence, or at the very. 2:44:23.320 --> 2:44:29.160 Least incite more T shirt sales, which would be just 2:44:29.280 --> 2:44:31.280 as horrified to see one of those things out in 2:44:31.320 --> 2:44:34.440 the wild already marketing free Rundo merch. 2:44:34.879 --> 2:44:35.039 Yeah. 2:44:35.080 --> 2:44:36.040 I bet. Yeah. 2:44:37.400 --> 2:44:40.440 I guess even Nazis have constitutional rights. 2:44:42.160 --> 2:44:42.720 I guess they do. 2:44:43.000 --> 2:44:47.480 Although it does feel again slightly uh insidious at the 2:44:48.000 --> 2:44:52.320 selective non enforcement of some of these things where there's many, 2:44:52.800 --> 2:44:56.760 many people who are being held, especially like in Atlanta, 2:44:56.760 --> 2:44:59.560 it's been many people being helped out bail because they've 2:44:59.560 --> 2:45:02.400 been deemed a flight risk for for a long long 2:45:02.520 --> 2:45:04.599 time for crimes. 2:45:04.480 --> 2:45:06.600 Not because they hold like a Serbian passport. 2:45:07.120 --> 2:45:11.520 No, no, just because they attended a music festival. Right. 2:45:11.760 --> 2:45:14.240 I mean, it's hard to get like super fired up 2:45:14.280 --> 2:45:17.080 about rob Rundo's constitutional rights in terms of this this 2:45:17.160 --> 2:45:20.120 sort of like procedural quagmire when it's like people are 2:45:20.320 --> 2:45:23.840 actively and intentionally violating everyone else's constitutional rights constantly. 2:45:24.560 --> 2:45:26.280 Yeah, like the only thing I'm left to think of 2:45:26.480 --> 2:45:28.600 is how this whole system of law does not seem 2:45:28.640 --> 2:45:32.400 to work very much, and especially we often point out 2:45:32.440 --> 2:45:35.360 how a whole bunch of laws get put in place 2:45:35.440 --> 2:45:39.440 that are like ostensibly framed to like combat white supremacist 2:45:39.680 --> 2:45:43.959 terrorism or whatever, and in actuality really only get used 2:45:44.000 --> 2:45:47.960 against people fighting for like the rights of black people, 2:45:48.080 --> 2:45:51.879 people fighting for getting trains people not to be murdered. 2:45:52.160 --> 2:45:54.840 Like that's that's really what all these laws get targeted against, 2:45:55.280 --> 2:45:59.200 and they face so so much more harsh punishment because 2:45:59.240 --> 2:46:01.760 we have a judge who's treating Rob Rundo like a 2:46:01.840 --> 2:46:05.600 little a little baby, who's this innocent little creature. Meanwhile, 2:46:05.760 --> 2:46:09.080 people I can get constantly locked up for completely bullshit 2:46:09.680 --> 2:46:12.520 charges in other parts of the country for engaging it 2:46:12.640 --> 2:46:16.840 like actually like pretty pretty valid acts of protest, not 2:46:16.959 --> 2:46:20.280 even related to any like alleged violence. Like there's it's 2:46:20.400 --> 2:46:24.760 it's it's quite it's quite frustrating to to to look at. Yes, 2:46:24.840 --> 2:46:27.519 there is actually a decent case of selective enforcement. 2:46:27.160 --> 2:46:29.520 Here, and it's the other way around. 2:46:30.000 --> 2:46:33.640 Yeah, it is not in fact that they're letting Antifa 2:46:33.879 --> 2:46:37.520 run wild and burn down cities. In fact, these these 2:46:37.920 --> 2:46:42.160 these Nazis get treated like little little innocent First Amendment 2:46:42.200 --> 2:46:47.400 defenders as they purposely like talk about and brag about 2:46:47.400 --> 2:46:50.000 their claims of traveling across the country to assault people 2:46:50.400 --> 2:46:51.320 and start riots. 2:46:51.959 --> 2:46:55.520 Anyway, Well, that's that's not great. 2:46:56.560 --> 2:46:57.600 Things are not good. 2:46:57.959 --> 2:46:59.439 I hope only the worst. 2:46:59.240 --> 2:47:02.840 For Rundo, regardless of whatever legal thing happens, just like 2:47:02.920 --> 2:47:07.240 in general, like I like, I I wish him bad, 2:47:07.400 --> 2:47:08.640 just like in life, you know, like I hope you 2:47:08.720 --> 2:47:10.600 like trips and falls down the stairs, you know, just 2:47:10.720 --> 2:47:12.800 like in general, like stub is toe. 2:47:12.760 --> 2:47:13.440 Really bad. 2:47:16.200 --> 2:47:18.800 This situation, Like, there are a million outcomes here that 2:47:18.879 --> 2:47:22.039 are the dumbest possible ending to this story. So I'm 2:47:22.080 --> 2:47:26.000 not holding my breath for you know, some brilliant prosecutor 2:47:26.120 --> 2:47:28.720 to save the day here. But I do hope that 2:47:29.160 --> 2:47:31.760 that Rob Rundo continues to have a bad day regardless. 2:47:32.200 --> 2:47:35.200 Yeah, well, thank you for. 2:47:35.240 --> 2:47:38.320 This lovely piece of legal research, Molly. 2:47:39.440 --> 2:47:41.560 Now I have to close eighty seven tabs. 2:47:41.920 --> 2:47:43.720 That is always the joy of wrapping up one of 2:47:43.760 --> 2:47:46.280 these episodes. It's closing the ridiculous amount of tabs that 2:47:46.320 --> 2:47:49.600 are open, because at at any moment in my research process, 2:47:49.680 --> 2:47:51.440 if any of my friends looks at my computer. 2:47:51.600 --> 2:47:55.800 They are horrified by the stress that I'm putting my 2:47:55.920 --> 2:47:59.959 own ram through different ram the other than the Yeah 2:48:00.520 --> 2:48:01.879 it is computer computer ram. 2:48:01.879 --> 2:48:04.120 Not also under considerable strain at this time. 2:48:04.440 --> 2:48:05.160 Yeah, exactly. 2:48:05.320 --> 2:48:07.680 Well all right, feel like that's that's as bad enough 2:48:07.720 --> 2:48:10.160 a joke to end it on as anything else where. 2:48:10.240 --> 2:48:11.600 Can people find you online? 2:48:11.640 --> 2:48:15.360 Mall Oh gosh, yeah, I am online at Socialist dog 2:48:15.440 --> 2:48:19.800 Mom on Twitter, on my newsletter on ghost the Devil's Advocates, 2:48:20.040 --> 2:48:22.320 and I don't know my dogs have an Instagram that 2:48:22.400 --> 2:48:25.720 I haven't updated lately. It's auto m buck. That's it 2:48:25.800 --> 2:48:26.840 for me, How about you, Garrison. 2:48:27.280 --> 2:48:30.560 Oh, you can find me documenting my process of slowly 2:48:30.600 --> 2:48:33.199 turning my entire apartment into the Black Lodge on Twitter 2:48:33.400 --> 2:48:38.400 at Hungry Bowtie. All right, Wow, you can actually see 2:48:38.440 --> 2:48:40.600 a little bit of it behind me. It's kind of dark, 2:48:40.680 --> 2:48:43.480 but you can see a glimmer of red curtains. Yes, 2:48:43.520 --> 2:48:46.360 spooky back there, It is quite spooky back there. Wait 2:48:46.480 --> 2:48:48.200 until I turn wait until I turn on the strobe light. 2:48:49.080 --> 2:48:51.959 All right, thank you for joining me today, Garrison. 2:48:52.720 --> 2:48:53.680 All right, thank you, Molly. 2:48:56.600 --> 2:48:56.760 Hey. 2:48:56.879 --> 2:48:59.879 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 2:49:00.320 --> 2:49:01.680 until the heat death of the universe. 2:49:02.320 --> 2:49:04.640 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2:49:04.920 --> 2:49:07.560 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:49:07.600 --> 2:49:10.720 Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2:49:10.720 --> 2:49:13.920 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2:49:13.959 --> 2:49:16.600 find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 2:49:16.680 --> 2:49:19.880 Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.